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There's been some discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Lesbian race about this article, particularly about whether race is appropriate in its name, & questions about original research & sourcing/verifiability for it. It seems appropriate to continue the discussion here, but interested editors should probably take a look at that discussion first. Or maybe we can copy if over to here? I'd do it, but gotta run! I will check in later. -- Yksin 01:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In order to provide full context for continuing discussion here, I'm copying over the conversation that has taken place to date at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Lesbian race. -- Yksin 16:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC) Please do not modify this copied conversation.
Um, stumbled across this article, Lesbian race, while checking changes made to templates LGBT and LGBT-footer. It seems a bit contrived, and hinges on non-inline references which never use the phrase "Lesbian race", which Googles only ~950 hits most of which read "Lesbian:race and ethnicity". I'm not sure what to do with it - can I just nom for deletion? Speedy? Help?! Zue Jay ( talk) 00:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
And my first thought when I saw this article title was "Is it a 10k or a marathon?" Pairadox 03:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the article should be renamed and could be helped by citations woven more thoroughly into the text. I've commented on its talk page. Gwen Gale 15:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Please do not modify this copied conversation. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.The concept of "lesbian race" is absolutely deserving of a philosophical dialogue. Yet this page loses academic/scholarly credibility in the last section, "Reality". Here, the tone shifts far from expository writing with regard to the reality of such a concept. The use of the word "overcome" patently connotes a preference for such a reality, perhaps even hopefulness, that the disregard of ethics is a noble struggle toward truth. Instead, I would encourage the author to discuss the scientific and probablistic reasoning for which the ultimate outcome of the genetic intervention would favor the Y chromosome, and then outline the underlying ethical debate in a separate section.
Thereelghostbuster 02:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)KC
I agree perhaps "Lesbian race" wasn't quite right, I suggest a move to either of the below. You can't ague with the science, and all sections are very important, I fail to see how it isn't neutral, how is it biased? I do however agree with your point on the use of "overcome" in the Reality section, this I will change. ( User765 18:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC))
It might be useful to compile a list of books, stories, etc. that contain all female societies, esp. if they also discuss the reproductive strategies used by those societies. Please feel free to add to it. Don't restrict to the English language. If you know of other sources (nonfiction, theoretical, etc.) which touches on these questions, please include them. -- Yksin 17:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to add the words "or Lesbians" after the word "Women" in the first paragraph, (...conceptual community made up entirely of women "OR LESBIANS" who are not dependent on men...)if no one objects. My reason is as follows: Monique Wittig, a notable French radicalesbian has a fair bit of theory about how some lesbians do not identify as "women", even though they are biologically female. Wittig feels the concept of "woman" is inherently heterosexual. Thus, in an article about lesbians, especially one with separatist underpinnings like this one, I think we should use both terms. Kootenayvolcano 02:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
It'd be nice if you could just use the word cis, because, last time I checked, trans women (no need to refer to them by their assigned sex unless you're trying to rely on patriarchy to read certain women out of lesbianism) are women, with biology and everything. You can still easily refer to the typical construction of Lesbian Utopia, as it's previously been advanced, as exclusively for cis women. Non-normative language would be far more in keeping with NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.93.107.136 ( talk) 19:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Examples in fiction, real world examples cited in non-fiction, maybe some sundry criticism (by lesbians I would hope), I can think of others but these three would (only IMHO though) helpful. Cheers. Gwen Gale 17:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Here are the two remaining assertions which do need citations. I'll say straight off, though I didn't put them in the text myself (only re-worded them a bit for flow), I tend to agree with these assertions and think they are reasonable, have thought about them before and have read/heard snippets along these lines (hence they're nobody's OR). So I think they belong in the article but very much need to be wholly supported by a secondary source (and not through spanned citations, which I could easily do myself).
Gwen Gale 17:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok, here are the two sentences from the article:
Neither is any more farfetched than the other, neither is supported by a reliable citation. I've looked some and can't find any support for them yet. I've no doubt both statements are more or less reasonable and supportable (and no I didn't put either of them in the article) but IMHO so many editors are expressing concerns (which I understand) I think they should be kept here for now. Gwen Gale 09:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I think adding this article to Category:Sexism could be highly misleading and PoV. Comments? Gwen Gale ( talk) 03:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Linking "5-12" to 2007 Karachi riots is most likely not the author's initial intention. Could someone better qualified, please, correct this? --Oop
In reality, this is what all forms of Feminism are in disguise, so no it is not inaccurate that it simply represents Misandry. One gender douse not make a Utopia anymore then one race or one religion douse.
The reproduction section strays off topic and seems a bit misplaced. Rewrite or removal seems necessary.
Also does anyone know any advocates for a lesbian utopia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lookingthrough ( talk • contribs) 14:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure this article deserves to exist, but as it is right now there are major issues. The bulk of the article appears to be a report of mixed results from one very strange experiment involving mice and a disorganized list of "lesbian utopia" fiction. Also, it doesn't help to have sentences worded like, "...without male assistance." It makes the article sound like teenage anti-male complaining. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Myrkkyhammas ( talk • contribs) 18:00, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm afraid that Gendercide is the goal of all feminist in all its forms because they all find everything misogynistic, they all blame and hate the entire male gender for women's oppression and all ignore the fact that men suffer similar situations as women and anyone who says feminist should be about equality and not supremacy is called a straw misogynist by all feminist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.223.221 ( talk) 04:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Men aren't raped? Do your research not all rape victims are female and centennially not all males are potential rapist despite what you believe. Men may not fear being raped but they still fear being tortured, murdered, falsely accused of rape and imprisoned for a crime they wont commit because all feminist have stated all men are criminals and all women are victims of men and only men. If you think man can't harm other men then think again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.223.221 ( talk) 09:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
So men don't fear or even physically feel pain when they are being beaten, crippled, tortured or raped by other men because none have any feelings? As for saying most women live on anxiety of being raped is your way of saying all men are automatically violent potential rapist?
I have gotten way off topic here: see wp:notaforum Jim1138 ( talk) 19:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC) All feminist believe all men are rapist is why they not only hate and stereotyped men but also choose to be useless when women are actually harmed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.238.212 ( talk) 05:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC) I'm sorry but if your a feminist of any "different group" you naturally hate men and want them to all be wiped out. Just like if your an Atheist you naturally hate anyone who is religious and want them all to be wiped out or if your an ecologist you naturally hate all humans and want them to all be wiped out. All feminist are lesbians/misandrist because after all, all feminist are man haters and all lesbians are feminist/misandrist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.98.216 ( talk) 04:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC) This whole section violates WP:NOTFORUM. Wikipedia talk pages are for discussing the article, not the subject of the article. Robofish ( talk) 14:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC) We are discussing on how to improve it from the perspective of a neutral view of feminism but after researching it both for it and against it its view become more and more blatantly negative. I tried to make edits about feminism on different pages about this topic but they keep on getting deleted. The statements I have made prior on the subject is an argument on how to change the articles about feminism on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.21.188 ( talk) 12:20, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
I apoligise for my judgment of the lesbain community because I have't met any but I still see feminist as misandrist and whoever said there are no girls on the internet has lied from day one because they take up at least half of the world wide web. -- 120.151.106.44 ( talk) 05:11, 15 September 2012 (UTC) |
-- Jugydmort ( talk) 14:04, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 18 January 2019. The result of the discussion was merge. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Lesbian utopia redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There's been some discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Lesbian race about this article, particularly about whether race is appropriate in its name, & questions about original research & sourcing/verifiability for it. It seems appropriate to continue the discussion here, but interested editors should probably take a look at that discussion first. Or maybe we can copy if over to here? I'd do it, but gotta run! I will check in later. -- Yksin 01:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In order to provide full context for continuing discussion here, I'm copying over the conversation that has taken place to date at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Lesbian race. -- Yksin 16:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC) Please do not modify this copied conversation.
Um, stumbled across this article, Lesbian race, while checking changes made to templates LGBT and LGBT-footer. It seems a bit contrived, and hinges on non-inline references which never use the phrase "Lesbian race", which Googles only ~950 hits most of which read "Lesbian:race and ethnicity". I'm not sure what to do with it - can I just nom for deletion? Speedy? Help?! Zue Jay ( talk) 00:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
And my first thought when I saw this article title was "Is it a 10k or a marathon?" Pairadox 03:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the article should be renamed and could be helped by citations woven more thoroughly into the text. I've commented on its talk page. Gwen Gale 15:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Please do not modify this copied conversation. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.The concept of "lesbian race" is absolutely deserving of a philosophical dialogue. Yet this page loses academic/scholarly credibility in the last section, "Reality". Here, the tone shifts far from expository writing with regard to the reality of such a concept. The use of the word "overcome" patently connotes a preference for such a reality, perhaps even hopefulness, that the disregard of ethics is a noble struggle toward truth. Instead, I would encourage the author to discuss the scientific and probablistic reasoning for which the ultimate outcome of the genetic intervention would favor the Y chromosome, and then outline the underlying ethical debate in a separate section.
Thereelghostbuster 02:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)KC
I agree perhaps "Lesbian race" wasn't quite right, I suggest a move to either of the below. You can't ague with the science, and all sections are very important, I fail to see how it isn't neutral, how is it biased? I do however agree with your point on the use of "overcome" in the Reality section, this I will change. ( User765 18:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC))
It might be useful to compile a list of books, stories, etc. that contain all female societies, esp. if they also discuss the reproductive strategies used by those societies. Please feel free to add to it. Don't restrict to the English language. If you know of other sources (nonfiction, theoretical, etc.) which touches on these questions, please include them. -- Yksin 17:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I would like to add the words "or Lesbians" after the word "Women" in the first paragraph, (...conceptual community made up entirely of women "OR LESBIANS" who are not dependent on men...)if no one objects. My reason is as follows: Monique Wittig, a notable French radicalesbian has a fair bit of theory about how some lesbians do not identify as "women", even though they are biologically female. Wittig feels the concept of "woman" is inherently heterosexual. Thus, in an article about lesbians, especially one with separatist underpinnings like this one, I think we should use both terms. Kootenayvolcano 02:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
It'd be nice if you could just use the word cis, because, last time I checked, trans women (no need to refer to them by their assigned sex unless you're trying to rely on patriarchy to read certain women out of lesbianism) are women, with biology and everything. You can still easily refer to the typical construction of Lesbian Utopia, as it's previously been advanced, as exclusively for cis women. Non-normative language would be far more in keeping with NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.93.107.136 ( talk) 19:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Examples in fiction, real world examples cited in non-fiction, maybe some sundry criticism (by lesbians I would hope), I can think of others but these three would (only IMHO though) helpful. Cheers. Gwen Gale 17:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Here are the two remaining assertions which do need citations. I'll say straight off, though I didn't put them in the text myself (only re-worded them a bit for flow), I tend to agree with these assertions and think they are reasonable, have thought about them before and have read/heard snippets along these lines (hence they're nobody's OR). So I think they belong in the article but very much need to be wholly supported by a secondary source (and not through spanned citations, which I could easily do myself).
Gwen Gale 17:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok, here are the two sentences from the article:
Neither is any more farfetched than the other, neither is supported by a reliable citation. I've looked some and can't find any support for them yet. I've no doubt both statements are more or less reasonable and supportable (and no I didn't put either of them in the article) but IMHO so many editors are expressing concerns (which I understand) I think they should be kept here for now. Gwen Gale 09:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I think adding this article to Category:Sexism could be highly misleading and PoV. Comments? Gwen Gale ( talk) 03:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Linking "5-12" to 2007 Karachi riots is most likely not the author's initial intention. Could someone better qualified, please, correct this? --Oop
In reality, this is what all forms of Feminism are in disguise, so no it is not inaccurate that it simply represents Misandry. One gender douse not make a Utopia anymore then one race or one religion douse.
The reproduction section strays off topic and seems a bit misplaced. Rewrite or removal seems necessary.
Also does anyone know any advocates for a lesbian utopia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lookingthrough ( talk • contribs) 14:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure this article deserves to exist, but as it is right now there are major issues. The bulk of the article appears to be a report of mixed results from one very strange experiment involving mice and a disorganized list of "lesbian utopia" fiction. Also, it doesn't help to have sentences worded like, "...without male assistance." It makes the article sound like teenage anti-male complaining. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Myrkkyhammas ( talk • contribs) 18:00, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm afraid that Gendercide is the goal of all feminist in all its forms because they all find everything misogynistic, they all blame and hate the entire male gender for women's oppression and all ignore the fact that men suffer similar situations as women and anyone who says feminist should be about equality and not supremacy is called a straw misogynist by all feminist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.223.221 ( talk) 04:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Men aren't raped? Do your research not all rape victims are female and centennially not all males are potential rapist despite what you believe. Men may not fear being raped but they still fear being tortured, murdered, falsely accused of rape and imprisoned for a crime they wont commit because all feminist have stated all men are criminals and all women are victims of men and only men. If you think man can't harm other men then think again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.223.221 ( talk) 09:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
So men don't fear or even physically feel pain when they are being beaten, crippled, tortured or raped by other men because none have any feelings? As for saying most women live on anxiety of being raped is your way of saying all men are automatically violent potential rapist?
I have gotten way off topic here: see wp:notaforum Jim1138 ( talk) 19:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC) All feminist believe all men are rapist is why they not only hate and stereotyped men but also choose to be useless when women are actually harmed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.238.212 ( talk) 05:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC) I'm sorry but if your a feminist of any "different group" you naturally hate men and want them to all be wiped out. Just like if your an Atheist you naturally hate anyone who is religious and want them all to be wiped out or if your an ecologist you naturally hate all humans and want them to all be wiped out. All feminist are lesbians/misandrist because after all, all feminist are man haters and all lesbians are feminist/misandrist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.98.216 ( talk) 04:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC) This whole section violates WP:NOTFORUM. Wikipedia talk pages are for discussing the article, not the subject of the article. Robofish ( talk) 14:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC) We are discussing on how to improve it from the perspective of a neutral view of feminism but after researching it both for it and against it its view become more and more blatantly negative. I tried to make edits about feminism on different pages about this topic but they keep on getting deleted. The statements I have made prior on the subject is an argument on how to change the articles about feminism on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.21.188 ( talk) 12:20, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
I apoligise for my judgment of the lesbain community because I have't met any but I still see feminist as misandrist and whoever said there are no girls on the internet has lied from day one because they take up at least half of the world wide web. -- 120.151.106.44 ( talk) 05:11, 15 September 2012 (UTC) |
-- Jugydmort ( talk) 14:04, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
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