![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
User-generated content is generally unacceptable.
WP:RSP provides a list of sources that have been discussed and determined by consensus:
Re
Twitter
However, if a Twitter
account is the official account of a subject (e.g. person, network, company, organization) it can be used as a
primary source about themselves.
Re
Medium
Re Reddit
Also, the following are among the standards of Wikipedia policy WP:NOT:
Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 06:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
"The orange-pink design was originally introduced in 2016 as a butch/femme flag and controversy arose in 2020 over who had actually originated an orange-pink flag."
The source for this sentence is just a Twitter conversation between two people, which is absolutely not a reliable source. See WP:SPS and WP:TWITTER. Regarding the argument that that the existence of Template:Cite_tweet implies the acceptability of citing Twitter, please be aware that Twitter is only an acceptable source in very specific, very narrow circumstances. Please note the large all-bold warning at the top of the template page: Tweets are usually unacceptable as sources. Pais arepa 17:03, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Pyxis Solitary but how can many articles cite social media?! An example is melanie Martinez bipronominal sources (IG) Kautr ( talk) 08:45, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
I edited the one still-remaining addition from https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lesbian_flag&diff=prev&oldid=1026843012 to clarify that it is not backed up by the source at all - that edit added several new claims between existing references and the text actually supported by those references.
I would have been bold and just deleted it (it appears, hopefully, to be worded the opposite of the way the editor meant, because of a double negative), but I can see this page gets a lot of vandalism and disputes, so I wanted to let someone else agree that it should be removed.
Maeveynot ( talk) 17:41, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
this page gets a lot of vandalism and disputes" — along with the trolls and zealots, there are people who (1) don't bother to read Wikipedia policies and guidelines, (2) think anything they want to include can be added to a Wikipedia article, or (3) have axes to grind, and are constantly injecting their personal viewpoint or personal creations into the article. This article must comply by WP:NEUTRAL, WP:NOR, and WP:VERIFY; with its content supported by reliable sources.
Own source claims "The flag has made a little traction on the internet, but has never been widely recognized as one for the lesbian community." add this for context. The lack there of seems like possible marketing scheme. you editing this Sean?
The Labrys flag is controversial due to its use of the black triangle. Acknowledge this controversy. Not doing so is disrespectful to the Romani people due to the Porajmos (Romani Genocide during WWII). Adding a link to the Romani Genocide article may also be valuable in furthering the articles educational effectivity.
Below is an example of how this may sound. it is an excerpt from the black triangle (badge) Wikipedia page:
"Controversy over lesbian usage
The use of the symbol as a sign of lesbian victimization has been challenged on the grounds that lesbian sex was not criminal under Paragraph 175 of the Nazi legislation on sexual behavior, and there is no record of the black triangle having been imposed on lesbians, or of lesbians as a group being confined to concentration camps. The archive of the memorial site of Ravensbrück has evidence of four women with an additional remark of being lesbians: two of them had been persecuted for political reasons, two for being Jewish. One of the Jewish inmates was given a black triangle due to sexual contacts with non-Jews.[7]
It is speculated that Playing for Time ('Sursis pour l'orchestre'), a holocaust memoir by Frenchwoman Fania Fénelon, is part of the reason behind the belief that the black triangle was placed on lesbians, as Fénelon's memoir includes lesbian themes and describes an evening of entertainment in the asocials' barracks as the "Black Triangles' Ball."
Romani, political dissidents and others labeled as asocial with the black triangle were sent to concentration camps. However, Romani people were the only peoples labled with the black triangle that were targeted for execution (The Final Solution).
From the black triangle (badge) wikipedea page: "Those considered anti-social included primarily the Romani but it was also used until 1942 to describe alcoholics, homeless, beggars, nomads, and prostitutes."
"Historians estimate that between 220,000 and 500,000 Romani were killed by the Germans and their collaborators—25% to over 50% of the estimate of slightly fewer than 1 million Roma in Europe at the time."
"The Nazis did not systematically persecute lesbians. However, some lesbians were imprisoned in concentration camps as political prisoners, asocials, and as members of other groups."
"Based on archival sources, it is clear that some lesbians were arrested and sent to concentration camps. What were some of the reasons for their arrest and detention, especially considering sexual relations between women were not illegal under the Nazi regime? ... In 1940, the Gestapo detained and interrogated Smula and Rosenberg. The Gestapo did so based on denunciations from the women’s coworkers. The coworkers alleged that the two women had engaged in sexual relations with other women. The Gestapo claimed that these sexual relations had interfered with the women’s work duties at a Berlin tram station. Smula and Rosenberg were accused of subversion. They were then deported to the Ravensbrück concentration camp. There, the two women were registered as political prisoners. A notation of “lesbian” was written in their camp documentation. ... In the camps, women who self-identified or were identified as lesbians did not wear the pink triangle. Instead, they wore badges that corresponded to the official reason for their arrest and internment."
In 2021, Tennessee-Virginia organization TriPride published a list of flags and declared the seven stripes orange-pink flag "as the official lesbian flag".
I'm curious why this is even listed here? It's unclear to me that TriPride has the ability to declare that something is (or isn't) "the official lesbian flag", any more or less than any other group. Thanks! CadeKobold ( talk) 07:47, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
While the source is a twitter conversation OP did provide time stamped proof that the orange-pink flag made in 2016 was saved on their computer, timestamped at 2016.
the emily gwen version is slightly less saturated. 2600:1700:7270:6890:D063:F7C9:94CC:F5CD ( talk) 20:49, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi! I am a nonbinary individual and I’m also lesbian, I’m wondering what the they/them lesbian flag is called? 104.59.47.53 ( talk) 13:01, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem with regards to the order of content in the history section, that makes the content confusing.
The first sentence states that the labrys flag was created in 1999 by a graphic designer. The second describes the details of that flag, that it contains a labrys superimposed on an inverted black triangle, set on a purple background. The third sentence gives some brief background on the history of the labrys symbol. So far, so good.
The fourth sentence is where things start to go wrong. It reads In the 1970s it was adopted as a symbol of empowerment by the lesbian feminist community.
, citing
Zimmerman. While the Zimmerman source does have a paragraph on the labrys and its use as a lesbian symbol, the content relating to the adoption of a symbol in the 1970s is actually in reference to an inverted pink triangle. The adoption of the labrys as a lesbian symbol is undated in the Zimmerman source.
The fifth sentence then describes use of an inverted black triangle in Nazi concentration camps for asocial women, a category which included lesbians, citing an entry on remember.org which seems to be a republished version of a paper published in the Journal of Homosexuality in 1996. While that source does state that some lesbians have reclaimed the inverted black triangle as a symbol, which forms the basis of the sixth sentence, it doesn't state when that started to happen. It does however restate that the inverted pink triangle was reclaimed in the 1970s. Finally the seventh sentence states how the colour purple came to be associated with lesbians.
So questions:
Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
a blog and online resource for gay and lesbian travellers, we cite it on 27 other articles, including other pride flag articles. States that it's not widely used due to concerns over the Holocause imagery, and co-option by trans-exclusionary lesbians and trans-exclusionary feminists.
Anyone familiar with the various lesbian flags will know about the controversies surrounding most of them. Here's a great article going into that in detail: https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/love-sex/relationships/a30254147/lesbian-flag/ In short: The labrys flag is controversial as it has been created by a cis gay man, its use of the black triangle and its use by trans exclusionary radical feminists. The lipstick flag is controversial as it has been created by someone making racist, bi- and transphobic comments. Additionally all widely used lesbian flags (all those that are mentioned in this article) are seen as only representing femme lesbians.
I feel like all this controversy should definitely be mentioned here as it plays a huge part in lesbian symbolism. 80.145.16.100 ( talk) 16:15, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
The labrys flag is controversial as it has been created by a cis gay man, its use of the black triangle and its use by trans exclusionary radical feminists.": (1) Where are the reliable published sources that confirm the flag is controversial because of the biology and sexual orientation of its creator? (2) The black triangle badge was used by Nazis to identify women considered anti-social, and homosexual women were considered anti-social. What reliable published sources contradict that lesbians were not considered anti-social and never tagged with the black triangle badge? (3) Where are the reliable published sources that confirm that only trans exclusionary radical feminists use the labrys flag?
has been created by someone making racist, bi- and transphobic comments": Can you link to who this "someone" is and also link to the "racist, bi- and transphobic comments" you allege have been made? Do not link to what someone else claims the person said. Wikipedia editors need to see the original 'from the horse's mouth' comments.
all widely used lesbian flags (all those that are mentioned in this article) are seen as only representing femme lesbians.": Where are the reliable published sources that confirm this?
@
Pyxis Solitary the Refinery29 source, already on the article,
says (slide 4) "Some lesbians oppose the use of this flag because McCray's blog includes racist, biphobic, and transphobic comments". This is not an isolated personal opinion, otherwise the entire Controversies section is made by personal opinions and accusations. The Cosmopolitan source also points the fact labrys flag was designed by a cis man (a non-lesbian).
This source (not on the article yet, in Spanish) also problematize that a bit more. —
Tazuco
18:45, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
also ""Yahoo! Sports" not an RS for LGBT topics". where does it say that LGBT topics have to have their own reliable sources? —
Tazuco
18:50, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
the sources are there, they say these things. if you don't want these informations to be there because you don't like it, then it's your personal stance. if you believe it's badly worded, just reorganize the sentence —
Tazuco
18:53, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
"if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources". The information was self-published, but it's also published in reliable sources.
I'm not the only one here putting sourced claims about McCray's bigotry." All the sources that have been presented base their assertions on the Medium blog by "Lydia" and social media gossip. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 07:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
I stated that her comments were *bigoted*." If you say someone's comments are "bigoted" ... you are accusing the person of being bigoted. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 07:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
User-generated content is generally unacceptable.
WP:RSP provides a list of sources that have been discussed and determined by consensus:
Re
Twitter
However, if a Twitter
account is the official account of a subject (e.g. person, network, company, organization) it can be used as a
primary source about themselves.
Re
Medium
Re Reddit
Also, the following are among the standards of Wikipedia policy WP:NOT:
Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 06:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
"The orange-pink design was originally introduced in 2016 as a butch/femme flag and controversy arose in 2020 over who had actually originated an orange-pink flag."
The source for this sentence is just a Twitter conversation between two people, which is absolutely not a reliable source. See WP:SPS and WP:TWITTER. Regarding the argument that that the existence of Template:Cite_tweet implies the acceptability of citing Twitter, please be aware that Twitter is only an acceptable source in very specific, very narrow circumstances. Please note the large all-bold warning at the top of the template page: Tweets are usually unacceptable as sources. Pais arepa 17:03, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Pyxis Solitary but how can many articles cite social media?! An example is melanie Martinez bipronominal sources (IG) Kautr ( talk) 08:45, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
I edited the one still-remaining addition from https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lesbian_flag&diff=prev&oldid=1026843012 to clarify that it is not backed up by the source at all - that edit added several new claims between existing references and the text actually supported by those references.
I would have been bold and just deleted it (it appears, hopefully, to be worded the opposite of the way the editor meant, because of a double negative), but I can see this page gets a lot of vandalism and disputes, so I wanted to let someone else agree that it should be removed.
Maeveynot ( talk) 17:41, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
this page gets a lot of vandalism and disputes" — along with the trolls and zealots, there are people who (1) don't bother to read Wikipedia policies and guidelines, (2) think anything they want to include can be added to a Wikipedia article, or (3) have axes to grind, and are constantly injecting their personal viewpoint or personal creations into the article. This article must comply by WP:NEUTRAL, WP:NOR, and WP:VERIFY; with its content supported by reliable sources.
Own source claims "The flag has made a little traction on the internet, but has never been widely recognized as one for the lesbian community." add this for context. The lack there of seems like possible marketing scheme. you editing this Sean?
The Labrys flag is controversial due to its use of the black triangle. Acknowledge this controversy. Not doing so is disrespectful to the Romani people due to the Porajmos (Romani Genocide during WWII). Adding a link to the Romani Genocide article may also be valuable in furthering the articles educational effectivity.
Below is an example of how this may sound. it is an excerpt from the black triangle (badge) Wikipedia page:
"Controversy over lesbian usage
The use of the symbol as a sign of lesbian victimization has been challenged on the grounds that lesbian sex was not criminal under Paragraph 175 of the Nazi legislation on sexual behavior, and there is no record of the black triangle having been imposed on lesbians, or of lesbians as a group being confined to concentration camps. The archive of the memorial site of Ravensbrück has evidence of four women with an additional remark of being lesbians: two of them had been persecuted for political reasons, two for being Jewish. One of the Jewish inmates was given a black triangle due to sexual contacts with non-Jews.[7]
It is speculated that Playing for Time ('Sursis pour l'orchestre'), a holocaust memoir by Frenchwoman Fania Fénelon, is part of the reason behind the belief that the black triangle was placed on lesbians, as Fénelon's memoir includes lesbian themes and describes an evening of entertainment in the asocials' barracks as the "Black Triangles' Ball."
Romani, political dissidents and others labeled as asocial with the black triangle were sent to concentration camps. However, Romani people were the only peoples labled with the black triangle that were targeted for execution (The Final Solution).
From the black triangle (badge) wikipedea page: "Those considered anti-social included primarily the Romani but it was also used until 1942 to describe alcoholics, homeless, beggars, nomads, and prostitutes."
"Historians estimate that between 220,000 and 500,000 Romani were killed by the Germans and their collaborators—25% to over 50% of the estimate of slightly fewer than 1 million Roma in Europe at the time."
"The Nazis did not systematically persecute lesbians. However, some lesbians were imprisoned in concentration camps as political prisoners, asocials, and as members of other groups."
"Based on archival sources, it is clear that some lesbians were arrested and sent to concentration camps. What were some of the reasons for their arrest and detention, especially considering sexual relations between women were not illegal under the Nazi regime? ... In 1940, the Gestapo detained and interrogated Smula and Rosenberg. The Gestapo did so based on denunciations from the women’s coworkers. The coworkers alleged that the two women had engaged in sexual relations with other women. The Gestapo claimed that these sexual relations had interfered with the women’s work duties at a Berlin tram station. Smula and Rosenberg were accused of subversion. They were then deported to the Ravensbrück concentration camp. There, the two women were registered as political prisoners. A notation of “lesbian” was written in their camp documentation. ... In the camps, women who self-identified or were identified as lesbians did not wear the pink triangle. Instead, they wore badges that corresponded to the official reason for their arrest and internment."
In 2021, Tennessee-Virginia organization TriPride published a list of flags and declared the seven stripes orange-pink flag "as the official lesbian flag".
I'm curious why this is even listed here? It's unclear to me that TriPride has the ability to declare that something is (or isn't) "the official lesbian flag", any more or less than any other group. Thanks! CadeKobold ( talk) 07:47, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
While the source is a twitter conversation OP did provide time stamped proof that the orange-pink flag made in 2016 was saved on their computer, timestamped at 2016.
the emily gwen version is slightly less saturated. 2600:1700:7270:6890:D063:F7C9:94CC:F5CD ( talk) 20:49, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi! I am a nonbinary individual and I’m also lesbian, I’m wondering what the they/them lesbian flag is called? 104.59.47.53 ( talk) 13:01, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem with regards to the order of content in the history section, that makes the content confusing.
The first sentence states that the labrys flag was created in 1999 by a graphic designer. The second describes the details of that flag, that it contains a labrys superimposed on an inverted black triangle, set on a purple background. The third sentence gives some brief background on the history of the labrys symbol. So far, so good.
The fourth sentence is where things start to go wrong. It reads In the 1970s it was adopted as a symbol of empowerment by the lesbian feminist community.
, citing
Zimmerman. While the Zimmerman source does have a paragraph on the labrys and its use as a lesbian symbol, the content relating to the adoption of a symbol in the 1970s is actually in reference to an inverted pink triangle. The adoption of the labrys as a lesbian symbol is undated in the Zimmerman source.
The fifth sentence then describes use of an inverted black triangle in Nazi concentration camps for asocial women, a category which included lesbians, citing an entry on remember.org which seems to be a republished version of a paper published in the Journal of Homosexuality in 1996. While that source does state that some lesbians have reclaimed the inverted black triangle as a symbol, which forms the basis of the sixth sentence, it doesn't state when that started to happen. It does however restate that the inverted pink triangle was reclaimed in the 1970s. Finally the seventh sentence states how the colour purple came to be associated with lesbians.
So questions:
Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
a blog and online resource for gay and lesbian travellers, we cite it on 27 other articles, including other pride flag articles. States that it's not widely used due to concerns over the Holocause imagery, and co-option by trans-exclusionary lesbians and trans-exclusionary feminists.
Anyone familiar with the various lesbian flags will know about the controversies surrounding most of them. Here's a great article going into that in detail: https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/love-sex/relationships/a30254147/lesbian-flag/ In short: The labrys flag is controversial as it has been created by a cis gay man, its use of the black triangle and its use by trans exclusionary radical feminists. The lipstick flag is controversial as it has been created by someone making racist, bi- and transphobic comments. Additionally all widely used lesbian flags (all those that are mentioned in this article) are seen as only representing femme lesbians.
I feel like all this controversy should definitely be mentioned here as it plays a huge part in lesbian symbolism. 80.145.16.100 ( talk) 16:15, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
The labrys flag is controversial as it has been created by a cis gay man, its use of the black triangle and its use by trans exclusionary radical feminists.": (1) Where are the reliable published sources that confirm the flag is controversial because of the biology and sexual orientation of its creator? (2) The black triangle badge was used by Nazis to identify women considered anti-social, and homosexual women were considered anti-social. What reliable published sources contradict that lesbians were not considered anti-social and never tagged with the black triangle badge? (3) Where are the reliable published sources that confirm that only trans exclusionary radical feminists use the labrys flag?
has been created by someone making racist, bi- and transphobic comments": Can you link to who this "someone" is and also link to the "racist, bi- and transphobic comments" you allege have been made? Do not link to what someone else claims the person said. Wikipedia editors need to see the original 'from the horse's mouth' comments.
all widely used lesbian flags (all those that are mentioned in this article) are seen as only representing femme lesbians.": Where are the reliable published sources that confirm this?
@
Pyxis Solitary the Refinery29 source, already on the article,
says (slide 4) "Some lesbians oppose the use of this flag because McCray's blog includes racist, biphobic, and transphobic comments". This is not an isolated personal opinion, otherwise the entire Controversies section is made by personal opinions and accusations. The Cosmopolitan source also points the fact labrys flag was designed by a cis man (a non-lesbian).
This source (not on the article yet, in Spanish) also problematize that a bit more. —
Tazuco
18:45, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
also ""Yahoo! Sports" not an RS for LGBT topics". where does it say that LGBT topics have to have their own reliable sources? —
Tazuco
18:50, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
the sources are there, they say these things. if you don't want these informations to be there because you don't like it, then it's your personal stance. if you believe it's badly worded, just reorganize the sentence —
Tazuco
18:53, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
"if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent, reliable sources". The information was self-published, but it's also published in reliable sources.
I'm not the only one here putting sourced claims about McCray's bigotry." All the sources that have been presented base their assertions on the Medium blog by "Lydia" and social media gossip. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 07:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
I stated that her comments were *bigoted*." If you say someone's comments are "bigoted" ... you are accusing the person of being bigoted. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 07:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)