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From a dup, possibly useful text:
Stan 03:53, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sweden has never used the original Leopard tank. Leopard 2 however is currently in use by the Swedish army, where it replaced Centurion and Strv 103. I'm removing the reference to Sweden in the first paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Selleriverket ( talk • contribs) 02:58, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Should this page not be moved to Leopard 1 and make Leopard tank a disamiguation page, because there are at least two other German tanks referred to as Leopard, obviously the Leopard 2 as well as a WWII tank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.31.79 ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
The Australian Leopard was designated the Leopard 1 AS4. It had a V10 MTU multi-fuel engine. Capable of producing 985 BHP at 2200 rpm. The loaded combat weight of this varient was 42.4 Tons. It carried three MG3 AA/U machine guns in addition to the 105mm main armament.
I have my original driver training and gunnery wing books if anyone just needs the hell out of some more info on the Aussie Leopards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.40.219.47 ( talk • contribs) 08:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I believe the Canadian Leopards were designated "Leopard C2". They underwent a modernization and turret replacement in the '90s, but have been recently retired. Can someone more familiar with the subject elucidate? — Michael Z. 2005-09-26 14:09 Z
I've uploaded a few photos of Canadian Leopards, made available by DND. — Michael Z. 2005-10-2 05:23 Z
I have changed the news report that the tanks would be brought [to Afghanistan] by ships (it's a landlocked country!) to airlifted by American forces, and added a citation - hope I didn't screw up! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.22.68 ( talk • contribs) 03:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Found that the Leopard 1 has 70mm rolled armor, from Modern Tanks and Fighting Vehicles (3rd Edition) by Christopher Foss. Ctifumdope 22:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
According to Wiki, it says that 58 remain in service, but the official Canadian Army site referenced says that 66 Leopards remain in service. Which might it be? Petercorless 12:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The number of 66 was intended to be the vehicles that would be replaced by the MGS (Mobile Gun System). With that program cancelled, the remainder were in the progress of being towed out to ranges to be used as targets, or having their barrels filled with cement to be used as monuments. The word on deploying tanks to Afghanistan came as this process was underway, meaning that currently more than 66 exist, but how many are servicable is unclear. The original intent in cancelling MGS would have seen Leopard C2s continue in service until 2015. With the additional wear and tear of an operational deployment, this date may be optimistic. 131.137.245.199 15:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
"Although the level of armor area density was equivalent to the A2's new welded version, the internal volume was increased by 1.2 m³ and the effective protection level by half."
If I am reading this correctly, it states that the 1A3 had as much armor as the 1A2, but nevertheless had half as much protection. This seems odd, can someone expand on this a bit? Or is it wrong? I found the identical wording on another site, although lacking the last bit about the protection level.
Maury 16:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, the prototype phase suggested that the armor could stop a 20 mm round. I assume the real armor is much thicker. This should be included. Maury 17:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added Lebanon to the list of operators as the deal was finalized with Belgium. Here's the link: http://www.lecho.be/article/La_Belgique_vend_71__blindes_au_Liban__dont_43_chars_Leopard.6033403 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vatche ( talk • contribs) 16:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
In the past, a user has requested mediation on this issue. The dispute was resolved at 2009=04-10 by ErikTheBikeMan. For more information, see the case page.
This is quoted from the talk pages.
Why did you remove the flags of the
Leopard 1 Operators ?? --
Zaher1988 ·
Talk|
Contributions
10:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
|
What's the point of moving this here, almost two weeks later? Your quotations of the guidelines support my point of view? I think it would be more helpful to actually respond and clarify what you're getting at, rather than copy our discussion around Wikipedia. (And it would be nice to let me know). — Michael Z. 2009-01-23 15:32 z
outdented. I don't understand or support the rationale that flags in the infobox or operator list of this article detract the presentation in any way. Hohum ( talk) 02:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
outdented. Your first example is a very good one for not having flags in that article, as it definitely presents a distracting and confusing array of them. However, we're talking about this article, where the list is fairly short. I'm not set on always having them in lists, or always not, or just because it "doesn't violate a guideline". Well, in fact, I'm not exactly set on having them in this article, but I do feel on balance, here, they would do some minor good. Hohum ( talk) 04:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I am responding to a request for a third opinion. The section in question, Leopard tank#Operators, is a list. Flag icons there do not seem to me to violate the guideline. — Athaenara ✉ 11:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
A dispute whether flags can be added to the operators list or whether that is now allowed is taking place. — zaher1988 (via posting script) 09:54, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Commenters should be aware of the 300-word Milhist guidelines on flags, the 3,200-word general guidelines on icons and flags, and a recent month-long discussion (4,500 words) about interpreting those guidelines at the Military History Wikiproject. — Michael Z. 2009-01-25 16:56 z
Hello, I am accepting this case with the Mediation Cabal.
From what I have read from the discussions, the dispute is over whether or not to use images of flags in the list of operators. From what I've gathered, the flags would be placed in the first list, at the beginning of the section. I would like to start with both sides giving rationale for having/not having flags in the list. While Michael Z. has pointed at the MOS quite a few times, I would still like a bit of elaboration as to why flags should not be used here, but should be used in other places. From Zaher, I would like an explanation of why flags should be used, preferably with references to policy.
Below I am leaving level three headers for comments from the users and a general discussion of the dispute. ErikTheBikeMan ( talk) 00:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for the late reply. I've been more than a bit busy over the last few days (school, swim meets, ACT).
Michael Z. believes essentially believes that having icons in the list is distracting to the actual content, a view that he supports mainly with WP:ICONDECORATION. He does note, however, that in the general guidelines for icons, it states “some readers can more quickly scan a series of icons due to the visual differences between icon [sic].” He strongly disagrees with this, although it must be acknowledged that this is a fairly accepted policy on Wikipedia.
On the other hand, Zaher believes that the icons do indeed help the reader, though he does not specifically cite any policy. He adds that "there is no clear rule on Wikipedia stating that 'flags should not be used on operators lists'." This does appear to be true, though I must add that this is a very specific case.
In my opinion, at least one of the following must be agreed upon before this dispute can successfully be resolved:
I would now like both users to add their interpretation of WP:ICONDECORATION in relation to this specific case. Also, I would like to ask Michael Z. if the main problem with the icons is that they disrupt the flow of the list? If that is the case, can Zaher think of any means by which the images could be resized to not disrupt the list.
(outdented to make discussion readable)
As I have been reading over various relevant policy to this discussion, I came this section of the manual of style, which states "Where there is disagreement over which style to use in an article, defer to the style used by the first major contributor." This section is heavily supported by the ArbCom, which has issued two rulings in favor of it. The first mainly deals with different types of spelling, though the second expands the previous ruling to include "American vs. British spelling, date formats, and citation style." The second ruling also explicitly states that the examples given are not an all inclusive list. The ruling goes on to say "Wikipedia does not mandate a specific style, editors should not attempt to convert Wikipedia to their own preferred style, nor should they edit articles for the sole purpose of converting them to their preferred style, or removing examples of, or references to, styles which they dislike." I believe that for the purposes of this discussion, it would be best to follow the MoS and two ArbCom decisions. Looking through the page history, I have found this diff, which seems to suggest that flags were in the article before Michael Z. removed them.
While, as a mediator, I do not have any true authority to end this argument, I would like both of the involved editors to consider this in the discussion.
Sincerely,
ErikTheBikeMan ( talk) 01:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdented) Ok. ErikTheBikeMan ( talk) 04:13, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Why flags should not be used here, but should be used in other places – In short: they shouldn't be used here, and they shouldn't be used in almost any other place either.
This is supported by the guideline for icons, which provides lots of advice on why and where to avoid icon images, but can't even suggest a real example where they should be added. 3,200 words of advice, and the best it has to offer is the insupportable assertion that “some readers can more quickly scan a series of icons due to the visual differences between icon [sic].” (it begs for citation needed)
The guideline's key is “ help the reader rather than decorate.” The guideline requires a functional justification for adding icon images to an article.
The content of an encyclopedia article is written text, conveyed by typography, illustrated with photos and diagrams, and annotated with data in tables and lists. Its interface consists of headings, page numbers, and leaves of paper in print, and links and navigation bars on the web. Little icon images serve no function as either content or interface.
Specifically, we have an alphabetized list of 14 countries. How does the reader use this? Scan down the list. The blue country links lead the eye to the anchor points, a vertical row of capital initials serves as an index. Figures representing numbers of tanks stand out in the scanning, too. If the reader is interested in one particular country, its presence or absence is confirmed in a half second or less. How can this nearly optimal design possibly be improved?
Now add 14 icon images to “help” – fourteen variously-proportioned, brightly-coloured rectangles, each chunkier and glitzier than any single word or heading on the page. Each ten times more distracting than the bands of yellow highlighter that a grade-school student might thoughtlessly swipe across the pages of a library book. What do they do? We read words and letters, not blocks of colour. The little pictures push the initial letters back from the start of the line and distract the eye. Their various heights spoil the even rhythm of lines of text. Scanning the list is slowed, and instead of an alphabetized list, we now have a game of flash cards or a string of unmatched beads. How does this help the reader? Of course it doesn't help, but hurt. — Michael Z. 2009-02-05 07:45 z
Thank you for opening the mediation, and sorry for my late reply, I was away for a while. In spite using flags is a very common behavior and approach on Wikipedia operators list, there are more important things to mention. First off, I refute the idea that flags distract the reader, or that they are only for decoration. Flags can have a positive role in reading the list, at many times people quickly reach their target by the flag. Additionally, there is no proof, and it is not at all clear that flags mess the list or distract the reader, as I said it makes reading the list a more pleasant experience.
Secondly, there is no clear rule on Wikipedia stating that "flags should not be used on operators lists".
--
Zaher1988 ·
Talk|
Contributions
13:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
While I have no interest in the Leopard tank article, I do edit other similar articles and I see this issue come up over and over.
I have always found the flag icons to be useless. They are a bit distracting and I have to agree with the notion stated here that elements that make no positive contribution to a design tend to weaken it. I can't think of an example of a flag icon helping in any list with which I've worked. For those who believe it can be helpful, I'd love to hear some evidence that the flag icon works better than the text itself. For example, would you favor a list with flags but no text? If not, why not? If the flags themselves have that much meaning, can they be substitutes for text or are they always meant as supplements? If they are supplements only, I don't see how the flags help.
As a header feature they make some sense. For example, at the head of a category in a table composed of several categories, a flag icon might be an easy way to convey opposing sides. But even there, words are just as good and possibly better. I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other.
The other case I can think of is in clarifying ambiguity. For example, if text merely says "Germany" I can think of several possible states (Imperial Germany, Weimar Germany, Nazi Germany, the DDR, the FRG.....). A flag icon might be an instant means of sorting out which Germany is meant.
So....I'd love to see flag icons disappear from lists. Regards, DMorpheus ( talk) 17:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy ( talk) 15:06, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I propose that we move this article to Leopard 1. "Tank" is an unnecessary qualifier, and should be removed. "Leopard 1" is it's commmon name. See also Leopard 2, Challenger 1 etc.-- Patton t/ c 18:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Alongside 'Germany' it states: 'Germany—2,437 originally. 724, last shot 2003'. Somebody has asked what it means; could it be the last time their guns were fired before being replaced by Leopard 2 (although what such a statement is doing there is beyond me). RASAM ( talk) 14:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
We should probably remove this line. Spain did not buy the Leopard 1 because the UK did not want to sell the L7 main gun to a fascist country and because the AMX-30 was cheaper, according to the AMX-30 article. Greece, during its dictatorship period, purchased Type 209 submarines from Germany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.242.168.186 ( talk) 14:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC) shane — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.185.67.28 ( talk) 15:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
German Wikipedia claims that a classified number of Leopard 1 tanks was sold to Singapore. Singapore is not mentioned in this articles at all. 91.114.184.118 ( talk) 00:16, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Leopard I is only useful to Ukraine if there is ammunition for it. This edit removed the information on the availability of ammunition for Leopard I to Ukraine. Some of that information should go back into the article.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:36, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
An IP editor has tried to change the dates it was in service, [4] designed and manufactured. [5]
This raises the question when production started. The article has used 1965 as the commencement of production (the IP editor wants to change that to 1967). Presumably the basis of the 1965 figure was that Krauss-Maffei's assembly line for Leopard completed its first tank on 9 September 1965 (I have stuck a citation with a quote for this in the article). Setting up the production line took about two years. Assuming that it took a few months to make the components and assemble them, the 1965 figure is justified by the source. It is worth adding that by the end of 1965, the production line was producing 50 a month, and was said to have completed about 600, of which the West German Army had taken over about 100 [source: Barker (1981) p21].-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:17, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
The figure of 600 looks like a printing error. If you are completing about 50 a month starting on 9 September 1965, that would mean 150-200 completed by the end of December 1965. The Osprey Book on Leopard I gives the following production figures:
-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
The Netherlands National Archives (nationaalarchief.nl) provided the photograph at File:Nederlandse soldaten bezig de door pantservoertuigen aangerichte schade te herst, Bestanddeelnr 921-5836.jpg. They have two nice photographs taken at Leusderheide dated 26 February 1968 showing Leopard 1 next to Chieftain. [6] [7]-- Toddy1 (talk) 16:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
The Leopard 1V is referenced extensively throughout the page about how widely it is distributed and how many units Greece picked up, etc., but there is no reference or characterization of the vehicle itself. What is the purpose of distinguishing a variant without describing it?
Second, in the users section, the Dutch are described as a former user, but do not appear in the list of former users. Podlesok86 ( talk) 12:53, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
See here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/17/ukraine-to-get-german-made-frankenstein-tank/ — The Anome ( talk) 22:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Here's the original source from Bild: https://www.bild.de/politik/ausland-und-internationales/rheinmetall-repariert-in-der-ukraine-bild-im-geheimen-panzer-werk-666d85463749934428aac76f , which makes clear that it's the Skyranger 35, with its 35mm cannon, which is being planned for this. — The Anome ( talk) 23:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
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From a dup, possibly useful text:
Stan 03:53, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sweden has never used the original Leopard tank. Leopard 2 however is currently in use by the Swedish army, where it replaced Centurion and Strv 103. I'm removing the reference to Sweden in the first paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Selleriverket ( talk • contribs) 02:58, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Should this page not be moved to Leopard 1 and make Leopard tank a disamiguation page, because there are at least two other German tanks referred to as Leopard, obviously the Leopard 2 as well as a WWII tank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.31.79 ( talk • contribs) 02:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
The Australian Leopard was designated the Leopard 1 AS4. It had a V10 MTU multi-fuel engine. Capable of producing 985 BHP at 2200 rpm. The loaded combat weight of this varient was 42.4 Tons. It carried three MG3 AA/U machine guns in addition to the 105mm main armament.
I have my original driver training and gunnery wing books if anyone just needs the hell out of some more info on the Aussie Leopards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.40.219.47 ( talk • contribs) 08:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I believe the Canadian Leopards were designated "Leopard C2". They underwent a modernization and turret replacement in the '90s, but have been recently retired. Can someone more familiar with the subject elucidate? — Michael Z. 2005-09-26 14:09 Z
I've uploaded a few photos of Canadian Leopards, made available by DND. — Michael Z. 2005-10-2 05:23 Z
I have changed the news report that the tanks would be brought [to Afghanistan] by ships (it's a landlocked country!) to airlifted by American forces, and added a citation - hope I didn't screw up! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.22.68 ( talk • contribs) 03:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Found that the Leopard 1 has 70mm rolled armor, from Modern Tanks and Fighting Vehicles (3rd Edition) by Christopher Foss. Ctifumdope 22:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
According to Wiki, it says that 58 remain in service, but the official Canadian Army site referenced says that 66 Leopards remain in service. Which might it be? Petercorless 12:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The number of 66 was intended to be the vehicles that would be replaced by the MGS (Mobile Gun System). With that program cancelled, the remainder were in the progress of being towed out to ranges to be used as targets, or having their barrels filled with cement to be used as monuments. The word on deploying tanks to Afghanistan came as this process was underway, meaning that currently more than 66 exist, but how many are servicable is unclear. The original intent in cancelling MGS would have seen Leopard C2s continue in service until 2015. With the additional wear and tear of an operational deployment, this date may be optimistic. 131.137.245.199 15:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
"Although the level of armor area density was equivalent to the A2's new welded version, the internal volume was increased by 1.2 m³ and the effective protection level by half."
If I am reading this correctly, it states that the 1A3 had as much armor as the 1A2, but nevertheless had half as much protection. This seems odd, can someone expand on this a bit? Or is it wrong? I found the identical wording on another site, although lacking the last bit about the protection level.
Maury 16:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, the prototype phase suggested that the armor could stop a 20 mm round. I assume the real armor is much thicker. This should be included. Maury 17:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added Lebanon to the list of operators as the deal was finalized with Belgium. Here's the link: http://www.lecho.be/article/La_Belgique_vend_71__blindes_au_Liban__dont_43_chars_Leopard.6033403 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vatche ( talk • contribs) 16:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
In the past, a user has requested mediation on this issue. The dispute was resolved at 2009=04-10 by ErikTheBikeMan. For more information, see the case page.
This is quoted from the talk pages.
Why did you remove the flags of the
Leopard 1 Operators ?? --
Zaher1988 ·
Talk|
Contributions
10:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
|
What's the point of moving this here, almost two weeks later? Your quotations of the guidelines support my point of view? I think it would be more helpful to actually respond and clarify what you're getting at, rather than copy our discussion around Wikipedia. (And it would be nice to let me know). — Michael Z. 2009-01-23 15:32 z
outdented. I don't understand or support the rationale that flags in the infobox or operator list of this article detract the presentation in any way. Hohum ( talk) 02:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
outdented. Your first example is a very good one for not having flags in that article, as it definitely presents a distracting and confusing array of them. However, we're talking about this article, where the list is fairly short. I'm not set on always having them in lists, or always not, or just because it "doesn't violate a guideline". Well, in fact, I'm not exactly set on having them in this article, but I do feel on balance, here, they would do some minor good. Hohum ( talk) 04:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
I am responding to a request for a third opinion. The section in question, Leopard tank#Operators, is a list. Flag icons there do not seem to me to violate the guideline. — Athaenara ✉ 11:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
A dispute whether flags can be added to the operators list or whether that is now allowed is taking place. — zaher1988 (via posting script) 09:54, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Commenters should be aware of the 300-word Milhist guidelines on flags, the 3,200-word general guidelines on icons and flags, and a recent month-long discussion (4,500 words) about interpreting those guidelines at the Military History Wikiproject. — Michael Z. 2009-01-25 16:56 z
Hello, I am accepting this case with the Mediation Cabal.
From what I have read from the discussions, the dispute is over whether or not to use images of flags in the list of operators. From what I've gathered, the flags would be placed in the first list, at the beginning of the section. I would like to start with both sides giving rationale for having/not having flags in the list. While Michael Z. has pointed at the MOS quite a few times, I would still like a bit of elaboration as to why flags should not be used here, but should be used in other places. From Zaher, I would like an explanation of why flags should be used, preferably with references to policy.
Below I am leaving level three headers for comments from the users and a general discussion of the dispute. ErikTheBikeMan ( talk) 00:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for the late reply. I've been more than a bit busy over the last few days (school, swim meets, ACT).
Michael Z. believes essentially believes that having icons in the list is distracting to the actual content, a view that he supports mainly with WP:ICONDECORATION. He does note, however, that in the general guidelines for icons, it states “some readers can more quickly scan a series of icons due to the visual differences between icon [sic].” He strongly disagrees with this, although it must be acknowledged that this is a fairly accepted policy on Wikipedia.
On the other hand, Zaher believes that the icons do indeed help the reader, though he does not specifically cite any policy. He adds that "there is no clear rule on Wikipedia stating that 'flags should not be used on operators lists'." This does appear to be true, though I must add that this is a very specific case.
In my opinion, at least one of the following must be agreed upon before this dispute can successfully be resolved:
I would now like both users to add their interpretation of WP:ICONDECORATION in relation to this specific case. Also, I would like to ask Michael Z. if the main problem with the icons is that they disrupt the flow of the list? If that is the case, can Zaher think of any means by which the images could be resized to not disrupt the list.
(outdented to make discussion readable)
As I have been reading over various relevant policy to this discussion, I came this section of the manual of style, which states "Where there is disagreement over which style to use in an article, defer to the style used by the first major contributor." This section is heavily supported by the ArbCom, which has issued two rulings in favor of it. The first mainly deals with different types of spelling, though the second expands the previous ruling to include "American vs. British spelling, date formats, and citation style." The second ruling also explicitly states that the examples given are not an all inclusive list. The ruling goes on to say "Wikipedia does not mandate a specific style, editors should not attempt to convert Wikipedia to their own preferred style, nor should they edit articles for the sole purpose of converting them to their preferred style, or removing examples of, or references to, styles which they dislike." I believe that for the purposes of this discussion, it would be best to follow the MoS and two ArbCom decisions. Looking through the page history, I have found this diff, which seems to suggest that flags were in the article before Michael Z. removed them.
While, as a mediator, I do not have any true authority to end this argument, I would like both of the involved editors to consider this in the discussion.
Sincerely,
ErikTheBikeMan ( talk) 01:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdented) Ok. ErikTheBikeMan ( talk) 04:13, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Why flags should not be used here, but should be used in other places – In short: they shouldn't be used here, and they shouldn't be used in almost any other place either.
This is supported by the guideline for icons, which provides lots of advice on why and where to avoid icon images, but can't even suggest a real example where they should be added. 3,200 words of advice, and the best it has to offer is the insupportable assertion that “some readers can more quickly scan a series of icons due to the visual differences between icon [sic].” (it begs for citation needed)
The guideline's key is “ help the reader rather than decorate.” The guideline requires a functional justification for adding icon images to an article.
The content of an encyclopedia article is written text, conveyed by typography, illustrated with photos and diagrams, and annotated with data in tables and lists. Its interface consists of headings, page numbers, and leaves of paper in print, and links and navigation bars on the web. Little icon images serve no function as either content or interface.
Specifically, we have an alphabetized list of 14 countries. How does the reader use this? Scan down the list. The blue country links lead the eye to the anchor points, a vertical row of capital initials serves as an index. Figures representing numbers of tanks stand out in the scanning, too. If the reader is interested in one particular country, its presence or absence is confirmed in a half second or less. How can this nearly optimal design possibly be improved?
Now add 14 icon images to “help” – fourteen variously-proportioned, brightly-coloured rectangles, each chunkier and glitzier than any single word or heading on the page. Each ten times more distracting than the bands of yellow highlighter that a grade-school student might thoughtlessly swipe across the pages of a library book. What do they do? We read words and letters, not blocks of colour. The little pictures push the initial letters back from the start of the line and distract the eye. Their various heights spoil the even rhythm of lines of text. Scanning the list is slowed, and instead of an alphabetized list, we now have a game of flash cards or a string of unmatched beads. How does this help the reader? Of course it doesn't help, but hurt. — Michael Z. 2009-02-05 07:45 z
Thank you for opening the mediation, and sorry for my late reply, I was away for a while. In spite using flags is a very common behavior and approach on Wikipedia operators list, there are more important things to mention. First off, I refute the idea that flags distract the reader, or that they are only for decoration. Flags can have a positive role in reading the list, at many times people quickly reach their target by the flag. Additionally, there is no proof, and it is not at all clear that flags mess the list or distract the reader, as I said it makes reading the list a more pleasant experience.
Secondly, there is no clear rule on Wikipedia stating that "flags should not be used on operators lists".
--
Zaher1988 ·
Talk|
Contributions
13:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
While I have no interest in the Leopard tank article, I do edit other similar articles and I see this issue come up over and over.
I have always found the flag icons to be useless. They are a bit distracting and I have to agree with the notion stated here that elements that make no positive contribution to a design tend to weaken it. I can't think of an example of a flag icon helping in any list with which I've worked. For those who believe it can be helpful, I'd love to hear some evidence that the flag icon works better than the text itself. For example, would you favor a list with flags but no text? If not, why not? If the flags themselves have that much meaning, can they be substitutes for text or are they always meant as supplements? If they are supplements only, I don't see how the flags help.
As a header feature they make some sense. For example, at the head of a category in a table composed of several categories, a flag icon might be an easy way to convey opposing sides. But even there, words are just as good and possibly better. I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other.
The other case I can think of is in clarifying ambiguity. For example, if text merely says "Germany" I can think of several possible states (Imperial Germany, Weimar Germany, Nazi Germany, the DDR, the FRG.....). A flag icon might be an instant means of sorting out which Germany is meant.
So....I'd love to see flag icons disappear from lists. Regards, DMorpheus ( talk) 17:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Move Parsecboy ( talk) 15:06, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I propose that we move this article to Leopard 1. "Tank" is an unnecessary qualifier, and should be removed. "Leopard 1" is it's commmon name. See also Leopard 2, Challenger 1 etc.-- Patton t/ c 18:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Alongside 'Germany' it states: 'Germany—2,437 originally. 724, last shot 2003'. Somebody has asked what it means; could it be the last time their guns were fired before being replaced by Leopard 2 (although what such a statement is doing there is beyond me). RASAM ( talk) 14:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
We should probably remove this line. Spain did not buy the Leopard 1 because the UK did not want to sell the L7 main gun to a fascist country and because the AMX-30 was cheaper, according to the AMX-30 article. Greece, during its dictatorship period, purchased Type 209 submarines from Germany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.242.168.186 ( talk) 14:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC) shane — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.185.67.28 ( talk) 15:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
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German Wikipedia claims that a classified number of Leopard 1 tanks was sold to Singapore. Singapore is not mentioned in this articles at all. 91.114.184.118 ( talk) 00:16, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Leopard I is only useful to Ukraine if there is ammunition for it. This edit removed the information on the availability of ammunition for Leopard I to Ukraine. Some of that information should go back into the article.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:36, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
An IP editor has tried to change the dates it was in service, [4] designed and manufactured. [5]
This raises the question when production started. The article has used 1965 as the commencement of production (the IP editor wants to change that to 1967). Presumably the basis of the 1965 figure was that Krauss-Maffei's assembly line for Leopard completed its first tank on 9 September 1965 (I have stuck a citation with a quote for this in the article). Setting up the production line took about two years. Assuming that it took a few months to make the components and assemble them, the 1965 figure is justified by the source. It is worth adding that by the end of 1965, the production line was producing 50 a month, and was said to have completed about 600, of which the West German Army had taken over about 100 [source: Barker (1981) p21].-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:17, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
The figure of 600 looks like a printing error. If you are completing about 50 a month starting on 9 September 1965, that would mean 150-200 completed by the end of December 1965. The Osprey Book on Leopard I gives the following production figures:
-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
The Netherlands National Archives (nationaalarchief.nl) provided the photograph at File:Nederlandse soldaten bezig de door pantservoertuigen aangerichte schade te herst, Bestanddeelnr 921-5836.jpg. They have two nice photographs taken at Leusderheide dated 26 February 1968 showing Leopard 1 next to Chieftain. [6] [7]-- Toddy1 (talk) 16:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
The Leopard 1V is referenced extensively throughout the page about how widely it is distributed and how many units Greece picked up, etc., but there is no reference or characterization of the vehicle itself. What is the purpose of distinguishing a variant without describing it?
Second, in the users section, the Dutch are described as a former user, but do not appear in the list of former users. Podlesok86 ( talk) 12:53, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
See here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/17/ukraine-to-get-german-made-frankenstein-tank/ — The Anome ( talk) 22:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Here's the original source from Bild: https://www.bild.de/politik/ausland-und-internationales/rheinmetall-repariert-in-der-ukraine-bild-im-geheimen-panzer-werk-666d85463749934428aac76f , which makes clear that it's the Skyranger 35, with its 35mm cannon, which is being planned for this. — The Anome ( talk) 23:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)