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This page (originally) posted by Carpentis.
This is a terrific article. I only changed the first paragraph because Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox believers differ considerably both in practice and in theology concerning Great Lent. Rather than try to include that material in this article, it seems better to discuss those in separate articles. I'll definitely refer back to this article as a template to make sure I cover the same breadth though, and would suggest that any other contributors do likewise. I'll put stubs in for now, just to define the terms. Wesley
I appreciate the additions and comments of Wesley, although I am a bit surprised by the distinctions made between Western and Eastern Christianity. I learned much of what I know of Lent from an Antiochene Orthodox priest--about as eastern as one can get. But I admit I am not an expert on the distinctions. I certainly didn't set out to write about Lent "as it is understood and practiced in Western Christianity. " Nor do the major references (encyclopedias, etc.) make the distinction. But I admit that proves nothing, as often subtle and not-so-subtle cultural differences can be ignored by popular references. I will seek to be more sensitive to those differences.
As for the addition of a reference to Mardi Gras by The Cunctator, I have chosen to modify the addition and move it to another position in the article. I originally meant to delete the reference entirely, but felt that it was worth mentioning if only because this event has become indelibly associated with Lent in the cultural sense. Mardi Gras and other carnival celebrations have almost no legitimate (spiritual/religious) claim to an association with Lent, except for the fact that they present an opportunity for the faithful to celebrate excess before the start of the fasting season. It is my understanding that many Christian festivals take place during periods when once pagan rites were practiced. But these Christian festivals would be practiced no matter what used to take place on the calendar. Carnivals, on the other hand, while having roots in pagan rites, have no scriptural basis for being associated with a christian festival.
This makes me question not the existance of Mardi Gras, only whether mention of it deserves inclusion in an article on Lent.
I am open to dialog on this point. Carpentis
Is Winter Lent the same as Advent? If so, I think
Any suggestions? Pfortuny 15:55, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have reverted back to the version priot to this edit. The start and end dates of Lent are counted using a couple of different methods, which is explained in more detail later in the article. Also, edit had grammatical mistakes, etc. OTOH it might be a good idea to include "starts on Ash Wednesday" in the 1st paragraph. - Gyrofrog 17:10, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The dates when it falls should be in the first paragraph. The same goes for all the other holidays linked from here. This is an encyclopedia, and it shouldn't assume that people just know (i.e. I don't :). Dori | Talk 15:10, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)
It's not quite as simple as that (it's first Sunday after the first full moon on or after the northern vernal equinox). Most churches fix the northern vernal equinox (in the southern hemisphere the vernal equinox occurs in September) to 21 March. The actual date moves from this to 20 March and back (that's what leap years do). The full moon isn't an actual full moon but one that is calculated from a system of epacts. Most Eastern Christians (except Finnish Orthodox and some Oriental Orthodox) us the Julian calendar to determine the date of Easter. 21 March in the Julian calendar falls on the same day as 3 April in the Gregorian calendar: this leads to a difference in date when the calculated full moon falls between the dates. Also, the Gregorian reforms introduced a correction into the calculation of full moons for Easter. This means that Julian calendar calculated full moons show a greater discrepancy with actual full moons than those calculated according to the Gregorian calendar. Did I say it was not quite so simple? Gareth Hughes 10:49, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I added a slight correction - the period of Lent actually ends on Maundy Thursday at sundown, NOT on Easter Sunday itself. --BT 9:54, 13 Apr 2006 PDT.
I think some serious thought needs to go into when Lent actually is. In the UK at least lent begins on Ash Wednesday, the day after shrove Tuesday when pancakes are traditionally consumed to rid the lader of forbidden foods. Lent lasts 40 days and 40 nights, corresponding to the time in the wilderness, and therefore finishes on Palm Sunday. This marks the start of holy week.
Whilst some believe the omitting Sundays from Lent allows you to consume forbidden foods during the period (as reflected in your article) this really is not acceptable.
The previous statement is incorrect. It is acceptable to stop the sacrifices (giving up) of foods or other items during Lent, since Sunday is "The Little Easter" and sacrifice is not allowed during this time of rejoicing. (Mark 2:18-22) However, this does not give us an excuse to indulge or sin. That is never right. If your sacrifice is a sacrifice of your time by giving more to God, this is encouraged always, especially on Sunday.
The previous statement is incorrect. According to the United States Council of Catholic Bishops, Lent ends quietly on the evening of Holy (Maundy) Thursday as the Paschal Triduum begins. (See page 116 of Part III . Days and Seasons http://www.usccb.org/lent/CHBPLent.pdf)
I was just wondering about this and thought the article might explain, but it doesn't. Why does Lent last forty days? Why not 30, 39, or 41? Does the New Testament describe some event that happened 40 days before Maundy Thursday, thus setting the subsequent events in motion? I'll try and look this up myself when I have time, but I have a feeling someone else already knows. Gyrofrog 16:38, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
156.33.138.39 18:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Answer: There is no forty-day period in Scripture preceding Maundy Thursday. Rather, the forty days is a reference to several 40-day Scriptural periods of fasting and preparation, most notably that of Jesus, fasting forty days in the wilderness before beginning his public ministry. Also Moses, who fasted 40 days on the mountain. Because of these Scriptures, it was felt that a forty-day period of asceticism and preparation was appropriate for catechumens to prepare for baptism on Easter Sunday. And it is that which evolved into Lent.
The above response is accurate concerning accounts of men fasting for forty days. But the Law contains no such commandment; it is not obligatory.
(Zec 7:3-5) And to speak unto the priests which were in the house of the LORD of hosts, and to the prophets, saying, "Should I weep in the fifth month, separating myself, as I have done these so many years?" {4} Then came the word of the LORD of hosts unto me, saying, {5} "Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, 'When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?'"
These were fasts proclaimed by people to mourn the several sieges of Jerusalem. But God never commanded them.
(Zec 7:6-7) And when ye did eat, and when ye did drink, did not ye eat for yourselves, and drink for yourselves? {7} Should ye not hear the words which the LORD hath cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when men inhabited the south and the plain?
This is what God wanted, for His people to obey His commandemnts:
(Zec 8:16-19) "THESE are the things that YE SHALL DO; Speak ye every man THE TRUTH to his neighbour; execute THE JUDGMENT OF TRUTH AND PEACE in your gates: {17} And let NONE OF YOU IMAGINE EVIL in your hearts against his neighbour; and LOVE NO FALSE OATH: for all these are things THAT I HATE, saith the LORD." {18} And the word of the LORD of hosts came unto me, saying, {19} "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah JOY AND GLADNESS, and CHEEERFUL FEASTS; THEREFORE LOVE THE TRUTH AND PEACE."
There is nothing wrong with practicing Lent. But fasting is vanity if His commandment are ignored.
above was posted by the same user (user:68.99.216.121) ( bakuzjw (aka 578) 00:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC))
This was explained in an earlier version of the article, but MrPMonday removed one explanation nine minutes before you posted this question. That's 40 days excluding Sundays, which is explained in more detail in the Customs during Lent section of the article. The 46 day difference between March 1 and April 16 consists of the 40 days of Lent plus 6 Sundays. As a side note, Ash Wednesday can not fall later than March 10; the Ash Wednesday article has this correct. 209.43.8.146 03:45, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
In the Catholic Church, Lent doesn't make any official claims to being 40 days but is instead defined as the 44 day period between Ash Wednesday and Holy Thursday. Considering this fact, there is a lot of cleaning up to do of this article. Please see Jimmy Akin's helpful guide to the Catholic Celebration of Lent as he pores through Tradition, Canon Law, and the definitions of Liturgical Seasons to provide detailed information. -- 130.85.252.118 05:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Would it not be worthwhile re-instating the explanation as to why Lent is longer than 40 days? This often causes confusion/discussion and is surely worth noting in the main article?-- Milesoneill ( talk) 10:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone fancy working on WikiProject Christian liturgical year? Gareth Hughes 11:02, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
How can links to Fish Eaters be "spam"? americancatholic.org - run by St. Anthony Messenger Press, a private company -- is linked to repeatedly. (Same with catholic.com, another private company) Wikipedia is their second biggest referrer according to Alexa (same with catholic.com). Where else will you get the information at the Lent section of that site you keep taking down? What is the deal here? Malachias111 14:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
St. Anthony's Messenger and catholic.com are private, commercial companies. The woman who came up with Fish Eaters exists separate from the website she created, too, I'm sure. And she has said she has 6 editors, so stop with the lying. Malachias111 14:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
You know something about her? If what she is doing isn't an "apostolate," what is? Malachias111 15:03, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I would really like to see a section on the origins of Lent, please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.4.149.75 ( talk) 08:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I added {{ sprotected}} to the article because of vandalism from anonymous users. -- Thorsen 07:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The third paragraph in the overview is vandalized. Someone should fix that and check if there are more problems. - Anonymous
Hello. I'm new here (well, not to Wikipedia-just my first time discussing). I was not aware that Lent was celebrated by Protestants (I myself am non-denominational Protestant). I wanted to know if anyone knows for certain that it is celebrated by Protestants (maybe a certain sect?). If so, that should be noted. If it is not celebrated by Protestants, that should be noted as well.
I'm new here too, but I do know that Anglicans celebrate lent, and consider themselves protestants. I was raised anglican and this is where my primary education on this topic came from. I believe that Lutherans also celebrate lent, but I am less sure of this. In recent times, "ancient/future" and "emerging" movements from within the protestant church have also reached back into liturgy, including lent, for enhancing their worship practices. -- Jocelynlt 06:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah well Anglican is closer to Roman Catholicism then any other protestant sect. Otherwise, Ive never heard of any protestant denomination practise the whole Lent thing. -- TheWickerMan
The United Methodist Church is certainly a Protestant denomination (one of the so-called mainline denominations along with Presbyterian Church of America, United Church of Christ, Church of Christ (Disciples) etc.). The UMC observes the Liturgical calendar, including Lent. For more information, you can visit United Methodist Church General Board of Ministries Worship page. -- startrekfan0823
There are "high church Anglicans" and "low church Anglicans". The former are closer to the RCC, the latter are definitively Protestant. I'm the latter, and I know many Baptists and Methodists and I know of no one who *doesn't* give something up for Lent. From my admittedly anecdotal experience, yet logically- at least some Protestants DO practise Lent.
There seems to be some confusion about what days count as the forty days of Lent. As far as I know (and I've never heard a reliable source to the contrary), it consists of Ash Wednesday and the Thursday, Friday, and Saturday following that (four days), plus six weeks of six days each (Monday to Saturday) (36 days). The last of these six weeks is Holy Week, meaning that the Triduum of Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday are counted among the forty days of Lent. Angr/ talk 10:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The Teutonic word Lent, which we employ to denote the forty days' fast preceding Easter... [1]
I always thought it was the 40 days starting on Ash Wednesday, ending the Saturday before palm Sunday. This is the only way that I thought it was possible because after all, Jesus came back to town on Palm Sunday, therefore he was no longer fasting for that last week. Fizzmaister 03:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
If you look at most American wall calendars for 2008, you will see that "Ash Wednesday" (the begining of Western Lent--Eastern Orthodox Clean Monday is usually missing) falls on February 6, and Easter is March 23, a period of 47 days (inclusive). If one counts Sundays, Lent would end on Palm Sunday, if you do not count Sundays, Lent would end on Holy Saturday. My understanding is that the Roman Catholic Church does not count Sundays in determining the 40 days, though they are obviously a part of the liturgical season of Lent. MishaPan ( talk) 19:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "In Eastern Christianity, these forty days are known as Great Lent to distinguish it from the Winter Lent."
This is not an accurate statement. Forty days of Eastern (e.g. Orthodox) Great Lent do not coincide with forty days of Western Lent. Aside from obvious differences in Easter calculation, there are multiple distinctions. Ash Wednesday is not celebrated by Eastern Christians. Great Lent begins on Monday seven weeks before Easter and lasts forty days up until Saturday one week before Easter. Sundays are counted towards 40 days. In fact, this is described in Great Lent.
I'm not sure how to formulate this succinctly for the article. Anyone care to make a correction? -- Itinerant1 00:25, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Helo. I'm cleaning up the Blue Monday disambiguation page and I want to know if there a Blue Monday as the day before Shrove Tuesday and Ash Wednesday? (I found Clean/Green Monday but I guess that's part of the Eastern tradition.) Thanks! Ewlyahoocom 09:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
It's not a major issue for me, but I was just wondering. I added this page to Category:Christian holy days and it was reverted saying that Lent is not a day, but a season. I can understand this argument, but, I would think that it would still fall within the same grouping. I mean, Lent is 40 consecutive holy days, isn't it? As I said, not a major thing, just looking for viewpoints from the greater population here.
Here's my two denarii worth:
It would seem that Lent was seen as holy from the early days of the Church. And as for it being a season as opposed to just a day, the category includes Advent, Christmas season, Eastertide, Great Lent(!), and Nativity Fast, all multi-day observances. SigPig 16:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Lent was stolen from Pagans. Why is the page all about Christianity while it is not the oldest religion that has Lent? wykis 15:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
No. Something being "Christian" doesn't mean every single Christian in the 'verse has to practise it. It is not one single denomination that practises this, it is a multi-denominational tradition. That is still irrelevant though for the purposes of your argument, because it is a fact that at least SOME (statistically who knows, maybe even "most") Christians celebrate this - and like I say, just as "Catholicism" is Christian, even though not all Christians are Catholics- that makes it a Christian festival.
I really don't know about the origins, if it's Pagan then YES that should definitely be included, origin-wise. But I am unaware that Pagans still practise Lent as part of their religion? If they do, fine - if they don't - then it's no longer a Pagan tradition, regardless of Pagan origin. -- Elín 23:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Lent was never mentioned in the Bible. Ever. It's another made up Catholic tradition, which is highly based on Pagan rituals. I am really offended that Lent is catagorized as "Christianity" since Christ never practiced Lent and it is nowhere in any translation of the Bible.
There's an ongoing discussion right now on Talk:Beaver about the distinction that the Roman Catholic Church draws between meat and nonmeat for the purposes of the Ash Wednesday/Good Friday/Fridays during Lent prohibition. It seems that there is some authority (based on a passage in St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica) that animals that are regarded as principally aquatic (including fish, and presumably including beavers) are treated as nonmeat for this purpose, and it seems that there is some authority (see citations in the Beaver article and additional references in Talk:Beaver) that the Church continues to adhere to this distinction. The notion that "the Church thinks that beavers are fish" seems too silly to some. Come check out the discussion at Talk:Beaver. Spikebrennan 14:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
The article on Lent is very informative and enlightening to me since I am not an observer of the Lent season. When I read the paragraph about fasting and abstinence, however, I felt like I was headed down a bunny trail. The first sentence begins very clearly explaining the meaning of Lent then becomes a synopsis of Christianity. The paragraph ends with allusions to very deep Christian theology that leave the reader wondering what propitiation, redemption, messiah, and Gospels have to do with fasting and abstinence.
I have never commented on Wikipedia before, but it seems to me that the following material should be in another article (or articles) referenced from here.
"... according to the record of the New Testament, the biblical writings known as the Gospels, he underwent for the sake of humans in order to make propitiation for their failure to keep the laws instituted by God in the Pentateuch. This sacrifice is referred to by Christians variously as a substitutionary death, a redemptive death, and a death which satisfied the perfect justice of God, who actually provided the means for that satisfaction by sending Jesus, said in the Bible to be God's own son, to die in the place of humanity. It is this distinction which fulfills the Hebrews' hope for a messiah (the "Christ" in Greek ) who would save the troubled nation, according to the New Testament writings.
Thanks for reading. Maybe I'll get an user ID and join this project. 71.164.176.204 20:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The Easter Triduum article declares that Lent ends on Holy Thursday, but the Lent article states that it ends either at the dusk of Holy Saturday (Easter Vigil) or the morning of Easter Sunday. These seem to conflict, so which one is right?? 74.62.177.140 20:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I missed it in one of the discussion topics, but I don't believe the short paragraph under "Fasting and Abstinence" pertaining to Irish Catholics is entirely correct. In recent years, the restriction was lifted in the U.S. because of St. Patrick's Day (and, I think, has happened more than once), but I don't know that it's a routine practice by the church, as the paragraph suggests. I did some searching, but didn't find anything. If someone has more specific info on this, it would be great to include it in the article. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.155.51.134 ( talk) 19:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it's important to point out lent is almost exclusively an English (UK) thing. I never heard about it in my thirty years of life in Australia and New Zealand; but everyone in the UK has heard of it. A bit like the expression "OE" is synonomous with "Overseas Experience" in NZ but no Aussie has ever heard of it, even though Australians go overseas as well.
It has been brought to my attention that the season of Lent does not begin until the First Sunday of Lent and Ends on Holy Thursday. Sundays are part of Lent but do not require that Lenten obligations to be observed. Lenten obligations begin on the Wednesday preceeding The First Sunday of Lent, Ash Wednesday, but are not initially part of the Liturgical Season. Therefore there are 40 actual days of Lent, which include Sundays, and 40 actual days of Lenten observances which do not include Sundays. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.130.40.79 ( talk) 03:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
I have read that in some churches, Lent ends on sundown Holy Saturday. However in the Roman Catholic Church, lent ends on Holy Thursday, (and probably some other churches as well.)
http://www.kencollins.com/holy-04.htm
Larry Wright, 'Christianity, Astrology And Myth', (2000), Oak Hill Free Press, California, USA. ISBN:0 9518796 1 8 ==
The book in question is essentially the text of my MA thesis entitled, 'Pagan Ritual And Myth, In The Early Christian Church'. It does indeed cover many aspects of the Jesus Myth, Christian festival et al...As an example, the first eight chapters are headed: (1)Rebirth of a Myth, (2)Christianity And The Sun God, (3)The Dying And Resurrected Saviour God,(4)Stars And Their Portents, (5)The Virgin Mother Of The World, (6)The Cave And Stable Myth, (7)Slaughter Of The Innocents, (8)Miracles...................etc. There are 16 chapters, 230pp, inc' Bibliography, and index.The work is therefore accademically sound, and relevant to many diverse aspects of Christianity. Larry Wright 25/03/07
About this part:
Can anyone provide a reference for lenct or lencten being Anglo-Saxon for March? As far as I know, the Old English word lencten means "spring", not "March". The only native word known for March is Hrēþmōnaþ (hreth-monath). See for example Germanic calendar. -- Saforrest 16:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Catholics believe there are 40 days in Lent.
From the Catechism [7]:
& from the Catholic Encyclopedia [8]:
So starting on Ash Wednesday this brings us to Holy Saturday. Rcol 21:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph about fasting 40 hours in the early church claimed this was the origin of quadragesima which contradicted the correct meaning of 40th day explained later in the article. So I included the 40 hours in the tomb as being more relevant. Rcol 23:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that there was a small error in the section on fast and abstinence. Where the article used to state that the Roman Catholic church bound people from the age of fourteen to fast on prescribed days and from eighteen to abstain from meat, I have indicated that abstinence begins first, at fourteen, and fasting later, at eighteen.
See http://www.usccb.org/norms/12521253.htm for the complementary US norms.
71.79.26.80 ( talk) 04:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
May I suggest www.pathwaysofprayer.org.uk - a Lent prayer guide from Churches Together in Britain and Ireland, in partnership with BBC Radio 4 and BBC Local Radio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Church2008 ( talk • contribs) 14:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
link # 6 "The Restored Church of God: The True Meaning of Lent" is inappropriate. It is a marginal argument from www.thercg.org which appears to be some kind of church in South Africa. Under the page "Who are we" it states:
"The Restored Church of God, led by Pastor General David C. Pack, does teach all the true doctrines of God without compromise, as they were taught to Christ’s Church by the first-century apostles. We are the successors of the original Worldwide Church of God (WCG), which was established in the early 20th century—and we trace our roots to the first-century Church."
Please remove this or allow links to be edited. Starfish 15:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Starfish warrior ( talk • contribs) 15:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Unlock this article, please. There is much information missing, and the content is horribly written. 209.55.80.148 ( talk) 01:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I concur -- Andy Howard ( talk) 02:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
I would advise that "mortification of the flesh" should be removed as many readers would take this to mean self-flagellation. The Christian faith clearly and directly contradicts this practice and the Christian Bible refers to the human body as the temple of the Holy Spirit and as such, should be treated with care, see 1 Corinthians 6:19-20.
Virtually certain Lenten fast/abstinence ends Holy Saturday, and not after attendance at Easter Mass, contrary to what article says.-- 173.22.171.37 ( talk) 01:33, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
"When observing fasting or abstinence during Lent, regard must be paid to the fact that Sundays are Feast Days, so the fast or abstinence may be broken."
I've heard this many times, but the only evidence given is that Lent is 40 days without the Sundays, so the Sundays don't count. Isn't this a case of "citation needed"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.181.127 ( talk) 07:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Unlock ALL of your dumb wikipedia entries. We users should be able to put in the right things, (and our opinions at the LEAST!), freely as we please. That was a dumb change. UNLOCK UNLOCK!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.175.189.234 ( talk) 22:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Please fix. This needs to be fixed before next Thursday!
"Lent runs from Ash Wednesday until the Mass of the Lord's Supper, exclusive" (General Norms 28). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.210.49.205 ( talk) 06:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Is the phrase "followed by a big fry with no eggs" meaningful to a common reader? It's meaningless to this one... 71.166.14.98 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC).
Please could someone look at the line which states that Holofernes asked the Syrian Christians to fast for him to help repel the pagan Persians. The link on "Holofernes" refers the reader to the Biblical Holofernes (a character in the book of Judith), but this is pre-Christian so he couldn't have done! Either the writer said Christians when s/he meant Jews, or it's a different Holofernes (although I can't say I've ever heard of any) and someone needs either to explain who he was, or amend the link. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.70.181.1 ( talk) 18:15, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
"On days of fasting, one eats only one full meal, but may eat two smaller meals as necessary to keep up one's strength. The two small meals together must sum to less than the one full meal." At least one site I've seen phrases this a little differently - "Catholics, as a group, are required to fast on only two days of the year - Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. On these days, fasting means something very specific and limited. It means that one eats only one full meal in a day, with no food in-between meals. It is understood that two other meals, if one eats three meals a day, should not total one full meal." Is the rule that the two other meals should be less than one full meal in general, or less than the one full meal eaten on that specific day? This Wikipedia article suggests the latter, while this site seems to suggest the former -
http://onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/Lent/fast-abstinence.html
The fact that other Christians denominations don't participate in a Lenten season seems a bit superfluous. Of course, there are Christian denominations which don't practice a Lenten observance, just as there are Christian denominations who don't have Watchnight services, but an entry on Watchnight services doesn't need a line about how other denominations don't have Watchnight services.
Also, is it really considered a reliable source to cite a polemic piece which uses as its reference work, "The Two Babylons?"
In the Roman Catholic Church, Lent technically ends at the beginning of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper, not at midnight on Holy Saturday.
EXACTLY! "Lent runs from Ash Wednesday until the Mass of the Lord's Supper, exclusive" (General Norms 28).
From what I've read through, in the Catholic church the Lent period officially ends at the beginning of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper (see http://www.catholicenquiry.com/faq/when-does-lent-finish.html, http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=39082). The period of Lent then makes way for the Easter Triduum. This is correctly listed on the Easter Triduum wikipedia page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Triduum), so I really think this Lent page should be updated with the correct end date. Apparently the Roman Catholic Church adjusted the dates during the Second Vatican Council (so it says on the Easter Triduum wikipedia page). In terms of the fasting and adstinence, Good Friday is a day of fast but I don't believe Holy Saturday is (however, it is recommended we fast on this day I think). In terms of the giving up of something for Lent, this can be officially finished with Lent on Holy Thursday or it can continue until Easter Sunday (the giving up of something for Lent is more of a voluntary thing from my understanding). However, the continuance of the giving up of something isn't a continuance of the Lent period, it is to celebrate the Resurrection ( http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=227598). I've also read that "the Second Vatican Council reminded us to keep the paschal fast throughout Lent until the Easter Vigil, the first Mass of Easter. Nevertheless, we must also celebrate the Triduum really as one saving event which allows us to live in the everpresent reality of our Lord’s last supper, passion, death and resurrection. The Triduum is an even more intensive time of preparation for Easter and brings Lent to its climax." So overall, I think the period of Lent in the Catholic church officially ends at the beginning of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper. The Easter Triduum period then begins which does still involve fasting... etc. Hope that helps! -- Gtcfanatic ( talk) 01:59, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}} This article speaks of Jesus going into the "desert" for 40 days, when the cited Bible resources say specifically the "wilderness". Where did the word "desert" come from? Either there should be a source cited that uses this terminology, or this wording should be changed to match what the existing resources state.
Here's a quote of the passages:
- Under the Lent heading:
The forty days represent the time that, according to the Bible, Jesus spent in the desert before the beginning of his public ministry, where he endured temptation by Satan.[1].
- Under the Origins heading:
Jesus retreated into the desert, where he fasted for forty days, and was tempted by the devil (Matthew 4:1-2, Mark 1:12-13, Luke 4:1-2).
198.103.184.76 (
talk)
13:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC) Jon (I'm not a registered user)
I have removed the speculation in the article that Lent had something to do with spring food shortages. This isn't supported by sources. -- macrakis ( talk) 23:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Request: What are the origins of the practice of Lent in the Christian religions? When was it first officially instituted and by whom? If, as indicated, it was observed in pre-Christian times, was it associated with any feasts or observances? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Techineer ( talk • contribs) 05:28, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Hungry gap links to the former Origin section here, and certainly there has to be some history on this. Its reckless to wantonly remove sections that arent obviously false, and if there are sources as to its origin, what do they say? Metallurgist ( talk) 02:41, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi. Is there a specific reason why the article includes a mention to the Spanish term? I can understand including Hebrew, as the custom already existed long before the Christian era. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 17:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Has anyone thought of possible links between Lent and the Jewish Counting of the Omer? Lent is forty days, running up to Easter. The Omer is forty-nine days, and runs from Passover to Shavuot. But there might be more to the picture than just length and time of occurrence. 198.151.130.69 ( talk) 01:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I thought the end of Lent was understood to end on Holy Thursday? Any thoughts? The article says on Holy Saturday or Easter morning. I am looking for sources now... Pax85 ( talk) 00:26, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
I removed "Lent is a time a sacrifice for Jesus" from the lead paragraph. It sounds devotional, not encyclopedic. Also, the Lead should say "Lent in the Western Christian tradition, is the period of the liturgical year from Ash Wednesday to Easter," as some of the Eastern traditions reckon the dates differently, and there's even a disambiguation link "For Lent in Orthodox Christianity, see Great Lent" that touches on this, and it is also mentioned elsewhere in the text. Just a thought. PurpleChez ( talk) 00:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Agreed, the opening line should refer to a subgroup of Christian traditions, as lent is not universally observed among christians, nor non-christians. Godot ( talk) 11:49, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
This article has a section entitled "Other related fasting periods", but this does not mention the Ember Days of the Christian year. It would be good if it did that - after all, some of them fall during Lent. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 16:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
As I recall reading, 2 of the 4 sets of Ember Days fall in the weeks which start with 1st Sunday of Lent and with Pentecost. The other 2 fall in September and December. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 ( talk) 18:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
At this writing, there is:
>In the Roman Catholic Mass, Lutheran Divine Service, and Anglican Eucharist, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo is not sung during the Lenten season, disappearing on Ash Wednesday and not returning until the moment of the Resurrection during the Easter Vigil. On major feast days, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo is recited, but this in no way diminishes the penitential character of the season; it simply reflects the joyful character of the Mass of the day in question. It is also used in the Mass of the Lord's Supper.
Is there some difference between singing (the Gloria in Excelsis Deo) and reciting? Assuming not, how about contracting to something like this?
In the Roman Catholic Mass, Lutheran Divine Service, and Anglican Eucharist, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo is not used during the Lenten season (except on major feast days and on Holy Thursday), and does not otherwise return until the moment of the Resurrection during the Easter Vigil. Use of the Gloria in Excelsis Deo on major feast days in Lent in no way diminishes the penitential character of the season; it simply reflects the joyful character of the Mass of the day in question.
This suggested rewrite also allows for the pre-Lent season (pre-1970 Catholic missal), where Gloria in Excelsis Deo is not used except on feasts (thus the removal of "disappearing on Ash Wednesday"), and also I recall it IS used (at least in the pre-1970 Catholic missal) in Holy Thursday Mass of the Chrism, which is a different Mass from that of the Lord's Supper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 ( talk) 18:47, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Lent is the period of 40 days which comes before Easter in the Christian calendar. Beginning on Ash Wednesday, Lent is a season of reflection and preparation before the celebrations of Easter. By observing the 40 days of Lent, Christians replicate Jesus Christ's sacrifice and withdrawal into the desert for 40 days. Lent is marked by fasting, both from food and festivities.Whereas Easter celebrates the resurrection of Jesus after his death on the cross, Lent recalls the events leading up to and including Jesus' crucifixion by Rome. This is believed to have taken place in Roman occupied Jerusalem.
The Christian churches that observe Lent in the 21st century (and not all do significantly) use it as a time for prayer and penance. Only a small number of people today fast for the whole of Lent, although some maintain the practice on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. It is more common these days for believers to surrender a particular vice such as favourite foods or smoking. Whatever the sacrifice it is a reflection of Jesus' deprivation in the wilderness and a test of self-discipline.
Why 40 days? 40 is a significant number in Jewish-Christian scripture:
•In Genesis, the flood which destroyed the earth was brought about by 40 days and nights of rain. •Moses fasted for 40 days before receiving the ten commandments on Mount Sinai. •Jesus spent 40 days fasting in the wilderness in preparation for his ministry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.255.190.70 ( talk) 10:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Is Lent not observed by other Christian denominations to the ones listed, such as Baptists or Congregationalists? ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 14:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
This article needs quotations and citations to the oldest references to Lent and its basic observances. The discussion of interpretations of the number 40 don't apply to this since they have nothing to do with actual Lent, just to Christian scriptural use of the number 40. 71.163.114.49 ( talk) 13:26, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I just removed the following sentence from the lead: "Today, some atheists who find value in the Christian tradition, also observe Lent." I did this because I felt it placed undue weight on atheists observing Lent when there aren't sources that indicate this is a widespread practice - the way it was placed after a sentence about the denominations of Christianity that observe Lent made it seem like it was on equal footing. Also, that the lead is supposed to be a summary of the most important aspects of the article according to WP:LEAD, and this information isn't mentioned in the body of the article. Maybe mention of atheists observing Lent could be put in the body of the article somewhere, although I think undue weight is still a concern - as I said, the cited source doesn't claim this is a widespread practice, so it might just not be notable enough to include. Any other thoughts on this? Cheers, Dawn Bard ( talk) 15:35, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. Editors come in to highjack this article by making sure their religious tradition is included, which is OK but completely dispels the brevity and readability of the article. By general rule, Lent customs are derived from the Catholic Church. Orthodox begins theirs a week earlier, but is generally the same. 2606:6000:80C1:6900:84B:49D8:1AD1:157E ( talk) 00:20, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
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This page (originally) posted by Carpentis.
This is a terrific article. I only changed the first paragraph because Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox believers differ considerably both in practice and in theology concerning Great Lent. Rather than try to include that material in this article, it seems better to discuss those in separate articles. I'll definitely refer back to this article as a template to make sure I cover the same breadth though, and would suggest that any other contributors do likewise. I'll put stubs in for now, just to define the terms. Wesley
I appreciate the additions and comments of Wesley, although I am a bit surprised by the distinctions made between Western and Eastern Christianity. I learned much of what I know of Lent from an Antiochene Orthodox priest--about as eastern as one can get. But I admit I am not an expert on the distinctions. I certainly didn't set out to write about Lent "as it is understood and practiced in Western Christianity. " Nor do the major references (encyclopedias, etc.) make the distinction. But I admit that proves nothing, as often subtle and not-so-subtle cultural differences can be ignored by popular references. I will seek to be more sensitive to those differences.
As for the addition of a reference to Mardi Gras by The Cunctator, I have chosen to modify the addition and move it to another position in the article. I originally meant to delete the reference entirely, but felt that it was worth mentioning if only because this event has become indelibly associated with Lent in the cultural sense. Mardi Gras and other carnival celebrations have almost no legitimate (spiritual/religious) claim to an association with Lent, except for the fact that they present an opportunity for the faithful to celebrate excess before the start of the fasting season. It is my understanding that many Christian festivals take place during periods when once pagan rites were practiced. But these Christian festivals would be practiced no matter what used to take place on the calendar. Carnivals, on the other hand, while having roots in pagan rites, have no scriptural basis for being associated with a christian festival.
This makes me question not the existance of Mardi Gras, only whether mention of it deserves inclusion in an article on Lent.
I am open to dialog on this point. Carpentis
Is Winter Lent the same as Advent? If so, I think
Any suggestions? Pfortuny 15:55, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have reverted back to the version priot to this edit. The start and end dates of Lent are counted using a couple of different methods, which is explained in more detail later in the article. Also, edit had grammatical mistakes, etc. OTOH it might be a good idea to include "starts on Ash Wednesday" in the 1st paragraph. - Gyrofrog 17:10, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The dates when it falls should be in the first paragraph. The same goes for all the other holidays linked from here. This is an encyclopedia, and it shouldn't assume that people just know (i.e. I don't :). Dori | Talk 15:10, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)
It's not quite as simple as that (it's first Sunday after the first full moon on or after the northern vernal equinox). Most churches fix the northern vernal equinox (in the southern hemisphere the vernal equinox occurs in September) to 21 March. The actual date moves from this to 20 March and back (that's what leap years do). The full moon isn't an actual full moon but one that is calculated from a system of epacts. Most Eastern Christians (except Finnish Orthodox and some Oriental Orthodox) us the Julian calendar to determine the date of Easter. 21 March in the Julian calendar falls on the same day as 3 April in the Gregorian calendar: this leads to a difference in date when the calculated full moon falls between the dates. Also, the Gregorian reforms introduced a correction into the calculation of full moons for Easter. This means that Julian calendar calculated full moons show a greater discrepancy with actual full moons than those calculated according to the Gregorian calendar. Did I say it was not quite so simple? Gareth Hughes 10:49, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I added a slight correction - the period of Lent actually ends on Maundy Thursday at sundown, NOT on Easter Sunday itself. --BT 9:54, 13 Apr 2006 PDT.
I think some serious thought needs to go into when Lent actually is. In the UK at least lent begins on Ash Wednesday, the day after shrove Tuesday when pancakes are traditionally consumed to rid the lader of forbidden foods. Lent lasts 40 days and 40 nights, corresponding to the time in the wilderness, and therefore finishes on Palm Sunday. This marks the start of holy week.
Whilst some believe the omitting Sundays from Lent allows you to consume forbidden foods during the period (as reflected in your article) this really is not acceptable.
The previous statement is incorrect. It is acceptable to stop the sacrifices (giving up) of foods or other items during Lent, since Sunday is "The Little Easter" and sacrifice is not allowed during this time of rejoicing. (Mark 2:18-22) However, this does not give us an excuse to indulge or sin. That is never right. If your sacrifice is a sacrifice of your time by giving more to God, this is encouraged always, especially on Sunday.
The previous statement is incorrect. According to the United States Council of Catholic Bishops, Lent ends quietly on the evening of Holy (Maundy) Thursday as the Paschal Triduum begins. (See page 116 of Part III . Days and Seasons http://www.usccb.org/lent/CHBPLent.pdf)
I was just wondering about this and thought the article might explain, but it doesn't. Why does Lent last forty days? Why not 30, 39, or 41? Does the New Testament describe some event that happened 40 days before Maundy Thursday, thus setting the subsequent events in motion? I'll try and look this up myself when I have time, but I have a feeling someone else already knows. Gyrofrog 16:38, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
156.33.138.39 18:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Answer: There is no forty-day period in Scripture preceding Maundy Thursday. Rather, the forty days is a reference to several 40-day Scriptural periods of fasting and preparation, most notably that of Jesus, fasting forty days in the wilderness before beginning his public ministry. Also Moses, who fasted 40 days on the mountain. Because of these Scriptures, it was felt that a forty-day period of asceticism and preparation was appropriate for catechumens to prepare for baptism on Easter Sunday. And it is that which evolved into Lent.
The above response is accurate concerning accounts of men fasting for forty days. But the Law contains no such commandment; it is not obligatory.
(Zec 7:3-5) And to speak unto the priests which were in the house of the LORD of hosts, and to the prophets, saying, "Should I weep in the fifth month, separating myself, as I have done these so many years?" {4} Then came the word of the LORD of hosts unto me, saying, {5} "Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, 'When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?'"
These were fasts proclaimed by people to mourn the several sieges of Jerusalem. But God never commanded them.
(Zec 7:6-7) And when ye did eat, and when ye did drink, did not ye eat for yourselves, and drink for yourselves? {7} Should ye not hear the words which the LORD hath cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when men inhabited the south and the plain?
This is what God wanted, for His people to obey His commandemnts:
(Zec 8:16-19) "THESE are the things that YE SHALL DO; Speak ye every man THE TRUTH to his neighbour; execute THE JUDGMENT OF TRUTH AND PEACE in your gates: {17} And let NONE OF YOU IMAGINE EVIL in your hearts against his neighbour; and LOVE NO FALSE OATH: for all these are things THAT I HATE, saith the LORD." {18} And the word of the LORD of hosts came unto me, saying, {19} "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah JOY AND GLADNESS, and CHEEERFUL FEASTS; THEREFORE LOVE THE TRUTH AND PEACE."
There is nothing wrong with practicing Lent. But fasting is vanity if His commandment are ignored.
above was posted by the same user (user:68.99.216.121) ( bakuzjw (aka 578) 00:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC))
This was explained in an earlier version of the article, but MrPMonday removed one explanation nine minutes before you posted this question. That's 40 days excluding Sundays, which is explained in more detail in the Customs during Lent section of the article. The 46 day difference between March 1 and April 16 consists of the 40 days of Lent plus 6 Sundays. As a side note, Ash Wednesday can not fall later than March 10; the Ash Wednesday article has this correct. 209.43.8.146 03:45, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
In the Catholic Church, Lent doesn't make any official claims to being 40 days but is instead defined as the 44 day period between Ash Wednesday and Holy Thursday. Considering this fact, there is a lot of cleaning up to do of this article. Please see Jimmy Akin's helpful guide to the Catholic Celebration of Lent as he pores through Tradition, Canon Law, and the definitions of Liturgical Seasons to provide detailed information. -- 130.85.252.118 05:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Would it not be worthwhile re-instating the explanation as to why Lent is longer than 40 days? This often causes confusion/discussion and is surely worth noting in the main article?-- Milesoneill ( talk) 10:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone fancy working on WikiProject Christian liturgical year? Gareth Hughes 11:02, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
How can links to Fish Eaters be "spam"? americancatholic.org - run by St. Anthony Messenger Press, a private company -- is linked to repeatedly. (Same with catholic.com, another private company) Wikipedia is their second biggest referrer according to Alexa (same with catholic.com). Where else will you get the information at the Lent section of that site you keep taking down? What is the deal here? Malachias111 14:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
St. Anthony's Messenger and catholic.com are private, commercial companies. The woman who came up with Fish Eaters exists separate from the website she created, too, I'm sure. And she has said she has 6 editors, so stop with the lying. Malachias111 14:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
You know something about her? If what she is doing isn't an "apostolate," what is? Malachias111 15:03, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I would really like to see a section on the origins of Lent, please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.4.149.75 ( talk) 08:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I added {{ sprotected}} to the article because of vandalism from anonymous users. -- Thorsen 07:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The third paragraph in the overview is vandalized. Someone should fix that and check if there are more problems. - Anonymous
Hello. I'm new here (well, not to Wikipedia-just my first time discussing). I was not aware that Lent was celebrated by Protestants (I myself am non-denominational Protestant). I wanted to know if anyone knows for certain that it is celebrated by Protestants (maybe a certain sect?). If so, that should be noted. If it is not celebrated by Protestants, that should be noted as well.
I'm new here too, but I do know that Anglicans celebrate lent, and consider themselves protestants. I was raised anglican and this is where my primary education on this topic came from. I believe that Lutherans also celebrate lent, but I am less sure of this. In recent times, "ancient/future" and "emerging" movements from within the protestant church have also reached back into liturgy, including lent, for enhancing their worship practices. -- Jocelynlt 06:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah well Anglican is closer to Roman Catholicism then any other protestant sect. Otherwise, Ive never heard of any protestant denomination practise the whole Lent thing. -- TheWickerMan
The United Methodist Church is certainly a Protestant denomination (one of the so-called mainline denominations along with Presbyterian Church of America, United Church of Christ, Church of Christ (Disciples) etc.). The UMC observes the Liturgical calendar, including Lent. For more information, you can visit United Methodist Church General Board of Ministries Worship page. -- startrekfan0823
There are "high church Anglicans" and "low church Anglicans". The former are closer to the RCC, the latter are definitively Protestant. I'm the latter, and I know many Baptists and Methodists and I know of no one who *doesn't* give something up for Lent. From my admittedly anecdotal experience, yet logically- at least some Protestants DO practise Lent.
There seems to be some confusion about what days count as the forty days of Lent. As far as I know (and I've never heard a reliable source to the contrary), it consists of Ash Wednesday and the Thursday, Friday, and Saturday following that (four days), plus six weeks of six days each (Monday to Saturday) (36 days). The last of these six weeks is Holy Week, meaning that the Triduum of Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday are counted among the forty days of Lent. Angr/ talk 10:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The Teutonic word Lent, which we employ to denote the forty days' fast preceding Easter... [1]
I always thought it was the 40 days starting on Ash Wednesday, ending the Saturday before palm Sunday. This is the only way that I thought it was possible because after all, Jesus came back to town on Palm Sunday, therefore he was no longer fasting for that last week. Fizzmaister 03:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
If you look at most American wall calendars for 2008, you will see that "Ash Wednesday" (the begining of Western Lent--Eastern Orthodox Clean Monday is usually missing) falls on February 6, and Easter is March 23, a period of 47 days (inclusive). If one counts Sundays, Lent would end on Palm Sunday, if you do not count Sundays, Lent would end on Holy Saturday. My understanding is that the Roman Catholic Church does not count Sundays in determining the 40 days, though they are obviously a part of the liturgical season of Lent. MishaPan ( talk) 19:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "In Eastern Christianity, these forty days are known as Great Lent to distinguish it from the Winter Lent."
This is not an accurate statement. Forty days of Eastern (e.g. Orthodox) Great Lent do not coincide with forty days of Western Lent. Aside from obvious differences in Easter calculation, there are multiple distinctions. Ash Wednesday is not celebrated by Eastern Christians. Great Lent begins on Monday seven weeks before Easter and lasts forty days up until Saturday one week before Easter. Sundays are counted towards 40 days. In fact, this is described in Great Lent.
I'm not sure how to formulate this succinctly for the article. Anyone care to make a correction? -- Itinerant1 00:25, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Helo. I'm cleaning up the Blue Monday disambiguation page and I want to know if there a Blue Monday as the day before Shrove Tuesday and Ash Wednesday? (I found Clean/Green Monday but I guess that's part of the Eastern tradition.) Thanks! Ewlyahoocom 09:44, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
It's not a major issue for me, but I was just wondering. I added this page to Category:Christian holy days and it was reverted saying that Lent is not a day, but a season. I can understand this argument, but, I would think that it would still fall within the same grouping. I mean, Lent is 40 consecutive holy days, isn't it? As I said, not a major thing, just looking for viewpoints from the greater population here.
Here's my two denarii worth:
It would seem that Lent was seen as holy from the early days of the Church. And as for it being a season as opposed to just a day, the category includes Advent, Christmas season, Eastertide, Great Lent(!), and Nativity Fast, all multi-day observances. SigPig 16:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Lent was stolen from Pagans. Why is the page all about Christianity while it is not the oldest religion that has Lent? wykis 15:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
No. Something being "Christian" doesn't mean every single Christian in the 'verse has to practise it. It is not one single denomination that practises this, it is a multi-denominational tradition. That is still irrelevant though for the purposes of your argument, because it is a fact that at least SOME (statistically who knows, maybe even "most") Christians celebrate this - and like I say, just as "Catholicism" is Christian, even though not all Christians are Catholics- that makes it a Christian festival.
I really don't know about the origins, if it's Pagan then YES that should definitely be included, origin-wise. But I am unaware that Pagans still practise Lent as part of their religion? If they do, fine - if they don't - then it's no longer a Pagan tradition, regardless of Pagan origin. -- Elín 23:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Lent was never mentioned in the Bible. Ever. It's another made up Catholic tradition, which is highly based on Pagan rituals. I am really offended that Lent is catagorized as "Christianity" since Christ never practiced Lent and it is nowhere in any translation of the Bible.
There's an ongoing discussion right now on Talk:Beaver about the distinction that the Roman Catholic Church draws between meat and nonmeat for the purposes of the Ash Wednesday/Good Friday/Fridays during Lent prohibition. It seems that there is some authority (based on a passage in St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica) that animals that are regarded as principally aquatic (including fish, and presumably including beavers) are treated as nonmeat for this purpose, and it seems that there is some authority (see citations in the Beaver article and additional references in Talk:Beaver) that the Church continues to adhere to this distinction. The notion that "the Church thinks that beavers are fish" seems too silly to some. Come check out the discussion at Talk:Beaver. Spikebrennan 14:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
The article on Lent is very informative and enlightening to me since I am not an observer of the Lent season. When I read the paragraph about fasting and abstinence, however, I felt like I was headed down a bunny trail. The first sentence begins very clearly explaining the meaning of Lent then becomes a synopsis of Christianity. The paragraph ends with allusions to very deep Christian theology that leave the reader wondering what propitiation, redemption, messiah, and Gospels have to do with fasting and abstinence.
I have never commented on Wikipedia before, but it seems to me that the following material should be in another article (or articles) referenced from here.
"... according to the record of the New Testament, the biblical writings known as the Gospels, he underwent for the sake of humans in order to make propitiation for their failure to keep the laws instituted by God in the Pentateuch. This sacrifice is referred to by Christians variously as a substitutionary death, a redemptive death, and a death which satisfied the perfect justice of God, who actually provided the means for that satisfaction by sending Jesus, said in the Bible to be God's own son, to die in the place of humanity. It is this distinction which fulfills the Hebrews' hope for a messiah (the "Christ" in Greek ) who would save the troubled nation, according to the New Testament writings.
Thanks for reading. Maybe I'll get an user ID and join this project. 71.164.176.204 20:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The Easter Triduum article declares that Lent ends on Holy Thursday, but the Lent article states that it ends either at the dusk of Holy Saturday (Easter Vigil) or the morning of Easter Sunday. These seem to conflict, so which one is right?? 74.62.177.140 20:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I missed it in one of the discussion topics, but I don't believe the short paragraph under "Fasting and Abstinence" pertaining to Irish Catholics is entirely correct. In recent years, the restriction was lifted in the U.S. because of St. Patrick's Day (and, I think, has happened more than once), but I don't know that it's a routine practice by the church, as the paragraph suggests. I did some searching, but didn't find anything. If someone has more specific info on this, it would be great to include it in the article. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.155.51.134 ( talk) 19:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it's important to point out lent is almost exclusively an English (UK) thing. I never heard about it in my thirty years of life in Australia and New Zealand; but everyone in the UK has heard of it. A bit like the expression "OE" is synonomous with "Overseas Experience" in NZ but no Aussie has ever heard of it, even though Australians go overseas as well.
It has been brought to my attention that the season of Lent does not begin until the First Sunday of Lent and Ends on Holy Thursday. Sundays are part of Lent but do not require that Lenten obligations to be observed. Lenten obligations begin on the Wednesday preceeding The First Sunday of Lent, Ash Wednesday, but are not initially part of the Liturgical Season. Therefore there are 40 actual days of Lent, which include Sundays, and 40 actual days of Lenten observances which do not include Sundays. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.130.40.79 ( talk) 03:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
I have read that in some churches, Lent ends on sundown Holy Saturday. However in the Roman Catholic Church, lent ends on Holy Thursday, (and probably some other churches as well.)
http://www.kencollins.com/holy-04.htm
Larry Wright, 'Christianity, Astrology And Myth', (2000), Oak Hill Free Press, California, USA. ISBN:0 9518796 1 8 ==
The book in question is essentially the text of my MA thesis entitled, 'Pagan Ritual And Myth, In The Early Christian Church'. It does indeed cover many aspects of the Jesus Myth, Christian festival et al...As an example, the first eight chapters are headed: (1)Rebirth of a Myth, (2)Christianity And The Sun God, (3)The Dying And Resurrected Saviour God,(4)Stars And Their Portents, (5)The Virgin Mother Of The World, (6)The Cave And Stable Myth, (7)Slaughter Of The Innocents, (8)Miracles...................etc. There are 16 chapters, 230pp, inc' Bibliography, and index.The work is therefore accademically sound, and relevant to many diverse aspects of Christianity. Larry Wright 25/03/07
About this part:
Can anyone provide a reference for lenct or lencten being Anglo-Saxon for March? As far as I know, the Old English word lencten means "spring", not "March". The only native word known for March is Hrēþmōnaþ (hreth-monath). See for example Germanic calendar. -- Saforrest 16:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Catholics believe there are 40 days in Lent.
From the Catechism [7]:
& from the Catholic Encyclopedia [8]:
So starting on Ash Wednesday this brings us to Holy Saturday. Rcol 21:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph about fasting 40 hours in the early church claimed this was the origin of quadragesima which contradicted the correct meaning of 40th day explained later in the article. So I included the 40 hours in the tomb as being more relevant. Rcol 23:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that there was a small error in the section on fast and abstinence. Where the article used to state that the Roman Catholic church bound people from the age of fourteen to fast on prescribed days and from eighteen to abstain from meat, I have indicated that abstinence begins first, at fourteen, and fasting later, at eighteen.
See http://www.usccb.org/norms/12521253.htm for the complementary US norms.
71.79.26.80 ( talk) 04:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
May I suggest www.pathwaysofprayer.org.uk - a Lent prayer guide from Churches Together in Britain and Ireland, in partnership with BBC Radio 4 and BBC Local Radio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Church2008 ( talk • contribs) 14:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
link # 6 "The Restored Church of God: The True Meaning of Lent" is inappropriate. It is a marginal argument from www.thercg.org which appears to be some kind of church in South Africa. Under the page "Who are we" it states:
"The Restored Church of God, led by Pastor General David C. Pack, does teach all the true doctrines of God without compromise, as they were taught to Christ’s Church by the first-century apostles. We are the successors of the original Worldwide Church of God (WCG), which was established in the early 20th century—and we trace our roots to the first-century Church."
Please remove this or allow links to be edited. Starfish 15:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Starfish warrior ( talk • contribs) 15:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Unlock this article, please. There is much information missing, and the content is horribly written. 209.55.80.148 ( talk) 01:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I concur -- Andy Howard ( talk) 02:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
I would advise that "mortification of the flesh" should be removed as many readers would take this to mean self-flagellation. The Christian faith clearly and directly contradicts this practice and the Christian Bible refers to the human body as the temple of the Holy Spirit and as such, should be treated with care, see 1 Corinthians 6:19-20.
Virtually certain Lenten fast/abstinence ends Holy Saturday, and not after attendance at Easter Mass, contrary to what article says.-- 173.22.171.37 ( talk) 01:33, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
"When observing fasting or abstinence during Lent, regard must be paid to the fact that Sundays are Feast Days, so the fast or abstinence may be broken."
I've heard this many times, but the only evidence given is that Lent is 40 days without the Sundays, so the Sundays don't count. Isn't this a case of "citation needed"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.181.127 ( talk) 07:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Unlock ALL of your dumb wikipedia entries. We users should be able to put in the right things, (and our opinions at the LEAST!), freely as we please. That was a dumb change. UNLOCK UNLOCK!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.175.189.234 ( talk) 22:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Please fix. This needs to be fixed before next Thursday!
"Lent runs from Ash Wednesday until the Mass of the Lord's Supper, exclusive" (General Norms 28). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.210.49.205 ( talk) 06:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Is the phrase "followed by a big fry with no eggs" meaningful to a common reader? It's meaningless to this one... 71.166.14.98 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC).
Please could someone look at the line which states that Holofernes asked the Syrian Christians to fast for him to help repel the pagan Persians. The link on "Holofernes" refers the reader to the Biblical Holofernes (a character in the book of Judith), but this is pre-Christian so he couldn't have done! Either the writer said Christians when s/he meant Jews, or it's a different Holofernes (although I can't say I've ever heard of any) and someone needs either to explain who he was, or amend the link. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.70.181.1 ( talk) 18:15, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
"On days of fasting, one eats only one full meal, but may eat two smaller meals as necessary to keep up one's strength. The two small meals together must sum to less than the one full meal." At least one site I've seen phrases this a little differently - "Catholics, as a group, are required to fast on only two days of the year - Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. On these days, fasting means something very specific and limited. It means that one eats only one full meal in a day, with no food in-between meals. It is understood that two other meals, if one eats three meals a day, should not total one full meal." Is the rule that the two other meals should be less than one full meal in general, or less than the one full meal eaten on that specific day? This Wikipedia article suggests the latter, while this site seems to suggest the former -
http://onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/Lent/fast-abstinence.html
The fact that other Christians denominations don't participate in a Lenten season seems a bit superfluous. Of course, there are Christian denominations which don't practice a Lenten observance, just as there are Christian denominations who don't have Watchnight services, but an entry on Watchnight services doesn't need a line about how other denominations don't have Watchnight services.
Also, is it really considered a reliable source to cite a polemic piece which uses as its reference work, "The Two Babylons?"
In the Roman Catholic Church, Lent technically ends at the beginning of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper, not at midnight on Holy Saturday.
EXACTLY! "Lent runs from Ash Wednesday until the Mass of the Lord's Supper, exclusive" (General Norms 28).
From what I've read through, in the Catholic church the Lent period officially ends at the beginning of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper (see http://www.catholicenquiry.com/faq/when-does-lent-finish.html, http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=39082). The period of Lent then makes way for the Easter Triduum. This is correctly listed on the Easter Triduum wikipedia page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Triduum), so I really think this Lent page should be updated with the correct end date. Apparently the Roman Catholic Church adjusted the dates during the Second Vatican Council (so it says on the Easter Triduum wikipedia page). In terms of the fasting and adstinence, Good Friday is a day of fast but I don't believe Holy Saturday is (however, it is recommended we fast on this day I think). In terms of the giving up of something for Lent, this can be officially finished with Lent on Holy Thursday or it can continue until Easter Sunday (the giving up of something for Lent is more of a voluntary thing from my understanding). However, the continuance of the giving up of something isn't a continuance of the Lent period, it is to celebrate the Resurrection ( http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=227598). I've also read that "the Second Vatican Council reminded us to keep the paschal fast throughout Lent until the Easter Vigil, the first Mass of Easter. Nevertheless, we must also celebrate the Triduum really as one saving event which allows us to live in the everpresent reality of our Lord’s last supper, passion, death and resurrection. The Triduum is an even more intensive time of preparation for Easter and brings Lent to its climax." So overall, I think the period of Lent in the Catholic church officially ends at the beginning of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper. The Easter Triduum period then begins which does still involve fasting... etc. Hope that helps! -- Gtcfanatic ( talk) 01:59, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}} This article speaks of Jesus going into the "desert" for 40 days, when the cited Bible resources say specifically the "wilderness". Where did the word "desert" come from? Either there should be a source cited that uses this terminology, or this wording should be changed to match what the existing resources state.
Here's a quote of the passages:
- Under the Lent heading:
The forty days represent the time that, according to the Bible, Jesus spent in the desert before the beginning of his public ministry, where he endured temptation by Satan.[1].
- Under the Origins heading:
Jesus retreated into the desert, where he fasted for forty days, and was tempted by the devil (Matthew 4:1-2, Mark 1:12-13, Luke 4:1-2).
198.103.184.76 (
talk)
13:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC) Jon (I'm not a registered user)
I have removed the speculation in the article that Lent had something to do with spring food shortages. This isn't supported by sources. -- macrakis ( talk) 23:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Request: What are the origins of the practice of Lent in the Christian religions? When was it first officially instituted and by whom? If, as indicated, it was observed in pre-Christian times, was it associated with any feasts or observances? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Techineer ( talk • contribs) 05:28, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Hungry gap links to the former Origin section here, and certainly there has to be some history on this. Its reckless to wantonly remove sections that arent obviously false, and if there are sources as to its origin, what do they say? Metallurgist ( talk) 02:41, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi. Is there a specific reason why the article includes a mention to the Spanish term? I can understand including Hebrew, as the custom already existed long before the Christian era. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 17:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Has anyone thought of possible links between Lent and the Jewish Counting of the Omer? Lent is forty days, running up to Easter. The Omer is forty-nine days, and runs from Passover to Shavuot. But there might be more to the picture than just length and time of occurrence. 198.151.130.69 ( talk) 01:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I thought the end of Lent was understood to end on Holy Thursday? Any thoughts? The article says on Holy Saturday or Easter morning. I am looking for sources now... Pax85 ( talk) 00:26, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
I removed "Lent is a time a sacrifice for Jesus" from the lead paragraph. It sounds devotional, not encyclopedic. Also, the Lead should say "Lent in the Western Christian tradition, is the period of the liturgical year from Ash Wednesday to Easter," as some of the Eastern traditions reckon the dates differently, and there's even a disambiguation link "For Lent in Orthodox Christianity, see Great Lent" that touches on this, and it is also mentioned elsewhere in the text. Just a thought. PurpleChez ( talk) 00:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Agreed, the opening line should refer to a subgroup of Christian traditions, as lent is not universally observed among christians, nor non-christians. Godot ( talk) 11:49, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
This article has a section entitled "Other related fasting periods", but this does not mention the Ember Days of the Christian year. It would be good if it did that - after all, some of them fall during Lent. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 16:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
As I recall reading, 2 of the 4 sets of Ember Days fall in the weeks which start with 1st Sunday of Lent and with Pentecost. The other 2 fall in September and December. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 ( talk) 18:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
At this writing, there is:
>In the Roman Catholic Mass, Lutheran Divine Service, and Anglican Eucharist, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo is not sung during the Lenten season, disappearing on Ash Wednesday and not returning until the moment of the Resurrection during the Easter Vigil. On major feast days, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo is recited, but this in no way diminishes the penitential character of the season; it simply reflects the joyful character of the Mass of the day in question. It is also used in the Mass of the Lord's Supper.
Is there some difference between singing (the Gloria in Excelsis Deo) and reciting? Assuming not, how about contracting to something like this?
In the Roman Catholic Mass, Lutheran Divine Service, and Anglican Eucharist, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo is not used during the Lenten season (except on major feast days and on Holy Thursday), and does not otherwise return until the moment of the Resurrection during the Easter Vigil. Use of the Gloria in Excelsis Deo on major feast days in Lent in no way diminishes the penitential character of the season; it simply reflects the joyful character of the Mass of the day in question.
This suggested rewrite also allows for the pre-Lent season (pre-1970 Catholic missal), where Gloria in Excelsis Deo is not used except on feasts (thus the removal of "disappearing on Ash Wednesday"), and also I recall it IS used (at least in the pre-1970 Catholic missal) in Holy Thursday Mass of the Chrism, which is a different Mass from that of the Lord's Supper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 ( talk) 18:47, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Lent is the period of 40 days which comes before Easter in the Christian calendar. Beginning on Ash Wednesday, Lent is a season of reflection and preparation before the celebrations of Easter. By observing the 40 days of Lent, Christians replicate Jesus Christ's sacrifice and withdrawal into the desert for 40 days. Lent is marked by fasting, both from food and festivities.Whereas Easter celebrates the resurrection of Jesus after his death on the cross, Lent recalls the events leading up to and including Jesus' crucifixion by Rome. This is believed to have taken place in Roman occupied Jerusalem.
The Christian churches that observe Lent in the 21st century (and not all do significantly) use it as a time for prayer and penance. Only a small number of people today fast for the whole of Lent, although some maintain the practice on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. It is more common these days for believers to surrender a particular vice such as favourite foods or smoking. Whatever the sacrifice it is a reflection of Jesus' deprivation in the wilderness and a test of self-discipline.
Why 40 days? 40 is a significant number in Jewish-Christian scripture:
•In Genesis, the flood which destroyed the earth was brought about by 40 days and nights of rain. •Moses fasted for 40 days before receiving the ten commandments on Mount Sinai. •Jesus spent 40 days fasting in the wilderness in preparation for his ministry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.255.190.70 ( talk) 10:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Is Lent not observed by other Christian denominations to the ones listed, such as Baptists or Congregationalists? ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 14:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
This article needs quotations and citations to the oldest references to Lent and its basic observances. The discussion of interpretations of the number 40 don't apply to this since they have nothing to do with actual Lent, just to Christian scriptural use of the number 40. 71.163.114.49 ( talk) 13:26, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I just removed the following sentence from the lead: "Today, some atheists who find value in the Christian tradition, also observe Lent." I did this because I felt it placed undue weight on atheists observing Lent when there aren't sources that indicate this is a widespread practice - the way it was placed after a sentence about the denominations of Christianity that observe Lent made it seem like it was on equal footing. Also, that the lead is supposed to be a summary of the most important aspects of the article according to WP:LEAD, and this information isn't mentioned in the body of the article. Maybe mention of atheists observing Lent could be put in the body of the article somewhere, although I think undue weight is still a concern - as I said, the cited source doesn't claim this is a widespread practice, so it might just not be notable enough to include. Any other thoughts on this? Cheers, Dawn Bard ( talk) 15:35, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. Editors come in to highjack this article by making sure their religious tradition is included, which is OK but completely dispels the brevity and readability of the article. By general rule, Lent customs are derived from the Catholic Church. Orthodox begins theirs a week earlier, but is generally the same. 2606:6000:80C1:6900:84B:49D8:1AD1:157E ( talk) 00:20, 4 March 2014 (UTC)