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"The Soviet Union's nickname for the M4 medium tank was Emcha because the open-topped figure 4 resembled the Cyrillic letter che or cha (Ч ). The (diesel engined M4A2) "emchas" used by the Red Army were considered to be much less prone to burn and explode than Russian tanks " A much more logical explanation for the name is that 'M' =em '4' = "(che)tyre" in russian. This has the advantage of A: actually making sense B. actually aligning with the name.
Further, soviets pioneered the use of diesel in tanks, so that is certainly not what made the sherman less liable to explode. One interview with a tanker attributes it to the tendency of the more powerful but less stable HE ammo of the russian tanks being more vulnerable to 'cooking off' (exploding inside the tank). 99.141.123.234 ( talk) 08:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Is it really a good idea to show a Canadian Sherman in an article on Lend-Lease. Canada didn't receive Lend-Lease aid in World War Two.-- Ggbroad 11:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
14thArmored 1000 Hours, 26 November 2006
The title of the article includes the words "Lend-Lease." For this rather obvious reason, the Grizzly should not be mentioned in the article. The four Shermans I mentioned above should be referenced. Source: "Lend-Lease Shipments of WWII", War Department. 14thArmored 0900 Hours, 29 November 2006
Maybe I'm being fussy, but I changed Grizzlies to Grizzlys. They aren't bears, so the "-ys" is correct. Trekphiler 15:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I am using the 14th edition of "The Chicago Manual of Style," but I will bet you dollars to dougnuts that the 15th edition says exactly the same thing. No offense, but I think this is another case of your misunderstanding a source, willfully or otherwise, just like your use of Zaloga's comments about the 75mm gun (HE) on the Sherman Talk page. See "plural anomolies" in "A Dictionary of Modern English Usage" by H.W. Fowler, pp. 456-457 or for that matter, almost any freshman (college) text on English grammar. 14thArmored 0900 Hours, 29 November 2006
R.P. Hunnicutt, "Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank," p. 131 states that the Grizzly I was "intended to replace the Ram II...." and that specifications were issued for the production of this tank in September 1943. He goes on to say that 188 Grizzlies were produced by the end of production in December 1943. 14thArmored 1000 Hours, 28 November 2006
One person says Canada had no Lend Lease Shermans and another person says that Canada did have Lend Lease Shermans. Can we please get verifiable sources with specific page references for these claims? Thank you. Wikist 13:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The GM locomotive plant in London, ON, actually built tanks and armoured vehicles.
64.26.148.218 00:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Virtually every source I have, including Russian ones, show only M4A2s sent to the USSR via Lend-Lease. The number is just over 4,000, as cited in Zaloga and others over and over. The recent edit showing an additional 1000 M4, M4A1, M4A5 (Rams? Canadian Lend-Lease to the USSR?) and M4A4 is unusual when compared to most sources. If there is some source documenting this new info, let's see it so we can improve the article with this newly-discovered information. Every single Soviet Sherman photo I've seen has clearly been an M4A2. If the other variants were sent, this is truly interesting. DMorpheus 22:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Zaloga, huh? Here's a rule of thumb for you. If the book is long on pictures, and really short on pages, it is probably not too thorough, and therefore not very dependable. PS This is really fun. 14thArmored 23:16, 18 December 2006
If Zaloga is a "perfectly legitimate source" please prove it by providing a positive review of his Sherman books by an academic military historian. I can't find one. If the professionals do not bother with performing a review, chances are the work is not a "legitimate source" of information. Sometimes the pros review books and conclude they are useful only to novices and are best suited for consumption by the general public. That means the books are not "legitimate sources." You are operating at the noviciate level, and that severely hinders what you know, and what you understand.
You would do well to remember, or learn if you do not know, that Great Britain served as a re-distributor for U.S. Lend-Lease. When you do, you will understand how the USSR received more M4 medium tanks, with gasoline engines, than is usually seen in the works written for the "general public."
Do you guys know the relationship between Lend-Lease Agreements and Mutual Aid Agreements? Did you know that virtually all of the United Nations signed Mutual Aid Agreements, not just Canada?
And what about Reverse Lend-Lease? 14thArmored 23:16, 19 December 2006
That's OK. We should stick with the official War Department report on Lend-Lease. After all, how accurate can a 40 something page picture book like Zaloga's be anyway? 14thArmored 02:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The correct total number of M4 Medium tanks sent to the USSR under Lend-Lease is 4,102 according to my previously cited source. I simply mis-typed the total, and was too arrogant, which I hate, to go back to the article to see what all the fuss was about. My mistake also led to the calculation of an incorrect percentage. I have corrected both errors. I am profoundly sorry for the errors, and for the additional trouble they, and I, caused the other editors here. I extend my personal apology to DMorpheus for treating him so unfairly on this issue. Regardless of my errors, I still hold severe reservations about the overall dependability of Zaloga, and urge everyone here to look past the smaller, mass media publications to the benchmark works on which they are based.
14thArmored 00:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
At least well-informed people will not laugh when they see the page now. 14thArmored 1200 Hours 20 December 2006
Deleted harrasment by Wikist. 14thArmored 03:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Correcting your errors is not an act of incivility. It is called "editing." 14thArmored 02:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The 4th Armoured Brigade formed part of the 2nd New Zealand Div and arrived in Italy Oct 22, 1943. See for example Jeff Plowman and Malcom Thomas, "4th New Zealand Armoured Brigade in Italy" in Kiwi Armour, 2000. Composition was three tank battalions (18th, 19th, and 20th NZ Tank Regiments) and one mechanized Infantry Bn ("Motor Battalion" in British usage), 22nd NZ Motor Battalion. This brigade was formed from the old 4th Infantry Brigade. DMorpheus 20:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Good for you. Then be my guest and put in the citation.
14thArmored 20:21, 22 December 2006
DMorpheus, please stop removing citation needed requests from the article. It would be much more helpful if you would be good, and add the requested information. Thank you. 14thArmored 02:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
This section is rather short here. I wonder what we can do to improve it without making it redundant to other such discussions on Wikipedia. Perhaps it's a question of stating what Lend-Lease recipients of the tank found.
I'm aware that the subject of the Sherman's operational performance is much debated on another page, but I thought I'd make a few notes here since there is a subheading about it. And I should also like to note that I'm not that kind of historian - I don't know very much about the nuts n' bolts of tanks and whatnot. What I do know is that Terry Copp is considered to be my country's foremost military historian and his recent work on Normandy has earned him an international reputation. Anyway, Terry had a close look at the 21st Army Group's Operational Research papers and here he reports what *they* found about the Sherman in British service. Don't yell at me about this, please.
"The ORSs attached to the Armoured Fighting Vehicle School at Lulworth…had established that the Sherman 75 was unlike to destroy any German armor at ranges beyond 500 yards, and that even at shorter ranges no penetration of the frontal armour of anything except a Mark IV was likely. They had also established that the 17-pounder's effective range was limited to about 1,000 yards" (discusses research conducted on hulls of destroyed Shermans and German tanks). "Most of the damage (to Shermans), 77 percent, was done by 75mm guns, just 18 percent by 88s. Almost every shot that hit a Sherman penetrated the armour, and 73 percent caught fire…the contrast to German tanks was striking…only 38 percent of the hits from Sherman 75s or 6-pound antitank guns penetrated German armour, and both the Panther and Tiger often survived one or two penetrations…the sloping front armour of the enemy's Panthers and self-propelled guns survived 75 percent of all direct hits" quoted from Copp, Fields of Fire: the Canadians in Normandy (University of Toronto Press, 2003), 128-129. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ggbroad ( talk • contribs) 14:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC).
The Combat performance section strangely focuses only on the late "Firefly" variant most successful against larger German Panzers, yet the Sherman Firefly article itself points out that these arrived only in 1944, and that only 2100-2200 were produced. This article is about lend-lease Sherman tanks in general, and so should reflect the entire range of success/performance for all models over the entire war. Most interviews I have seen with actual Sherman crews (granted, mostly British, Canadian, and ANZAC troops) dwell extensively on the vast inferiority of the design, at least on European battlefields against heavier German tanks with their 88mm guns and AP shells. (The Germans are said to have called the Shermans "Tommy cookers".) They talk about their enormous relief when the British 17-pounder gun was finally incorporated, making the tank a viable weapon against Tigers. They also make mention of some American resistance to this beneficial modification on the grounds that it was not an American-made gun. I see no reason why this information should not be fully presented here.
Here is a fairly typical account, from what I've seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEeQPUp5VTY
Another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igm-SRxMEFY
A third: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-7cHchSB5Q&feature=related
I realise it's been turned into a cultural icon in the States, and it certainly had many merits, but let's not let that blind us to its limitations and failures, as well. Heavenlyblue ( talk) 21:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
There's good reason for not putting the 17pdr into the US Sherman; 76mm was very close to introduction and though not quite equal in performance it was probably equal in practical terms (both can deal with most German tanks, unlike the older 75mm, but neither can deal with the "step up" to the last generation of heavy tanks.) The British seem to have come to a similar conclusion after they introduced the 77mm HV.
The 76mm was also far less of a "fudge" to get into the existing turret; the 17pdr was genuinely a tight fit and made for awkward loading,that the cartridge was also much larger didn't help. US tests with the 17pdr and APDS were also damning (they really couldn't hit anything!); thus they were far more willing to accept the moderate performance loss which (much more accurate) HVAP implied. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.23.134 ( talk) 22:39, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
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"The Soviet Union's nickname for the M4 medium tank was Emcha because the open-topped figure 4 resembled the Cyrillic letter che or cha (Ч ). The (diesel engined M4A2) "emchas" used by the Red Army were considered to be much less prone to burn and explode than Russian tanks " A much more logical explanation for the name is that 'M' =em '4' = "(che)tyre" in russian. This has the advantage of A: actually making sense B. actually aligning with the name.
Further, soviets pioneered the use of diesel in tanks, so that is certainly not what made the sherman less liable to explode. One interview with a tanker attributes it to the tendency of the more powerful but less stable HE ammo of the russian tanks being more vulnerable to 'cooking off' (exploding inside the tank). 99.141.123.234 ( talk) 08:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Is it really a good idea to show a Canadian Sherman in an article on Lend-Lease. Canada didn't receive Lend-Lease aid in World War Two.-- Ggbroad 11:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
14thArmored 1000 Hours, 26 November 2006
The title of the article includes the words "Lend-Lease." For this rather obvious reason, the Grizzly should not be mentioned in the article. The four Shermans I mentioned above should be referenced. Source: "Lend-Lease Shipments of WWII", War Department. 14thArmored 0900 Hours, 29 November 2006
Maybe I'm being fussy, but I changed Grizzlies to Grizzlys. They aren't bears, so the "-ys" is correct. Trekphiler 15:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I am using the 14th edition of "The Chicago Manual of Style," but I will bet you dollars to dougnuts that the 15th edition says exactly the same thing. No offense, but I think this is another case of your misunderstanding a source, willfully or otherwise, just like your use of Zaloga's comments about the 75mm gun (HE) on the Sherman Talk page. See "plural anomolies" in "A Dictionary of Modern English Usage" by H.W. Fowler, pp. 456-457 or for that matter, almost any freshman (college) text on English grammar. 14thArmored 0900 Hours, 29 November 2006
R.P. Hunnicutt, "Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank," p. 131 states that the Grizzly I was "intended to replace the Ram II...." and that specifications were issued for the production of this tank in September 1943. He goes on to say that 188 Grizzlies were produced by the end of production in December 1943. 14thArmored 1000 Hours, 28 November 2006
One person says Canada had no Lend Lease Shermans and another person says that Canada did have Lend Lease Shermans. Can we please get verifiable sources with specific page references for these claims? Thank you. Wikist 13:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The GM locomotive plant in London, ON, actually built tanks and armoured vehicles.
64.26.148.218 00:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Virtually every source I have, including Russian ones, show only M4A2s sent to the USSR via Lend-Lease. The number is just over 4,000, as cited in Zaloga and others over and over. The recent edit showing an additional 1000 M4, M4A1, M4A5 (Rams? Canadian Lend-Lease to the USSR?) and M4A4 is unusual when compared to most sources. If there is some source documenting this new info, let's see it so we can improve the article with this newly-discovered information. Every single Soviet Sherman photo I've seen has clearly been an M4A2. If the other variants were sent, this is truly interesting. DMorpheus 22:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Zaloga, huh? Here's a rule of thumb for you. If the book is long on pictures, and really short on pages, it is probably not too thorough, and therefore not very dependable. PS This is really fun. 14thArmored 23:16, 18 December 2006
If Zaloga is a "perfectly legitimate source" please prove it by providing a positive review of his Sherman books by an academic military historian. I can't find one. If the professionals do not bother with performing a review, chances are the work is not a "legitimate source" of information. Sometimes the pros review books and conclude they are useful only to novices and are best suited for consumption by the general public. That means the books are not "legitimate sources." You are operating at the noviciate level, and that severely hinders what you know, and what you understand.
You would do well to remember, or learn if you do not know, that Great Britain served as a re-distributor for U.S. Lend-Lease. When you do, you will understand how the USSR received more M4 medium tanks, with gasoline engines, than is usually seen in the works written for the "general public."
Do you guys know the relationship between Lend-Lease Agreements and Mutual Aid Agreements? Did you know that virtually all of the United Nations signed Mutual Aid Agreements, not just Canada?
And what about Reverse Lend-Lease? 14thArmored 23:16, 19 December 2006
That's OK. We should stick with the official War Department report on Lend-Lease. After all, how accurate can a 40 something page picture book like Zaloga's be anyway? 14thArmored 02:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The correct total number of M4 Medium tanks sent to the USSR under Lend-Lease is 4,102 according to my previously cited source. I simply mis-typed the total, and was too arrogant, which I hate, to go back to the article to see what all the fuss was about. My mistake also led to the calculation of an incorrect percentage. I have corrected both errors. I am profoundly sorry for the errors, and for the additional trouble they, and I, caused the other editors here. I extend my personal apology to DMorpheus for treating him so unfairly on this issue. Regardless of my errors, I still hold severe reservations about the overall dependability of Zaloga, and urge everyone here to look past the smaller, mass media publications to the benchmark works on which they are based.
14thArmored 00:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
At least well-informed people will not laugh when they see the page now. 14thArmored 1200 Hours 20 December 2006
Deleted harrasment by Wikist. 14thArmored 03:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Correcting your errors is not an act of incivility. It is called "editing." 14thArmored 02:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The 4th Armoured Brigade formed part of the 2nd New Zealand Div and arrived in Italy Oct 22, 1943. See for example Jeff Plowman and Malcom Thomas, "4th New Zealand Armoured Brigade in Italy" in Kiwi Armour, 2000. Composition was three tank battalions (18th, 19th, and 20th NZ Tank Regiments) and one mechanized Infantry Bn ("Motor Battalion" in British usage), 22nd NZ Motor Battalion. This brigade was formed from the old 4th Infantry Brigade. DMorpheus 20:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Good for you. Then be my guest and put in the citation.
14thArmored 20:21, 22 December 2006
DMorpheus, please stop removing citation needed requests from the article. It would be much more helpful if you would be good, and add the requested information. Thank you. 14thArmored 02:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
This section is rather short here. I wonder what we can do to improve it without making it redundant to other such discussions on Wikipedia. Perhaps it's a question of stating what Lend-Lease recipients of the tank found.
I'm aware that the subject of the Sherman's operational performance is much debated on another page, but I thought I'd make a few notes here since there is a subheading about it. And I should also like to note that I'm not that kind of historian - I don't know very much about the nuts n' bolts of tanks and whatnot. What I do know is that Terry Copp is considered to be my country's foremost military historian and his recent work on Normandy has earned him an international reputation. Anyway, Terry had a close look at the 21st Army Group's Operational Research papers and here he reports what *they* found about the Sherman in British service. Don't yell at me about this, please.
"The ORSs attached to the Armoured Fighting Vehicle School at Lulworth…had established that the Sherman 75 was unlike to destroy any German armor at ranges beyond 500 yards, and that even at shorter ranges no penetration of the frontal armour of anything except a Mark IV was likely. They had also established that the 17-pounder's effective range was limited to about 1,000 yards" (discusses research conducted on hulls of destroyed Shermans and German tanks). "Most of the damage (to Shermans), 77 percent, was done by 75mm guns, just 18 percent by 88s. Almost every shot that hit a Sherman penetrated the armour, and 73 percent caught fire…the contrast to German tanks was striking…only 38 percent of the hits from Sherman 75s or 6-pound antitank guns penetrated German armour, and both the Panther and Tiger often survived one or two penetrations…the sloping front armour of the enemy's Panthers and self-propelled guns survived 75 percent of all direct hits" quoted from Copp, Fields of Fire: the Canadians in Normandy (University of Toronto Press, 2003), 128-129. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ggbroad ( talk • contribs) 14:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC).
The Combat performance section strangely focuses only on the late "Firefly" variant most successful against larger German Panzers, yet the Sherman Firefly article itself points out that these arrived only in 1944, and that only 2100-2200 were produced. This article is about lend-lease Sherman tanks in general, and so should reflect the entire range of success/performance for all models over the entire war. Most interviews I have seen with actual Sherman crews (granted, mostly British, Canadian, and ANZAC troops) dwell extensively on the vast inferiority of the design, at least on European battlefields against heavier German tanks with their 88mm guns and AP shells. (The Germans are said to have called the Shermans "Tommy cookers".) They talk about their enormous relief when the British 17-pounder gun was finally incorporated, making the tank a viable weapon against Tigers. They also make mention of some American resistance to this beneficial modification on the grounds that it was not an American-made gun. I see no reason why this information should not be fully presented here.
Here is a fairly typical account, from what I've seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEeQPUp5VTY
Another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Igm-SRxMEFY
A third: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-7cHchSB5Q&feature=related
I realise it's been turned into a cultural icon in the States, and it certainly had many merits, but let's not let that blind us to its limitations and failures, as well. Heavenlyblue ( talk) 21:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
There's good reason for not putting the 17pdr into the US Sherman; 76mm was very close to introduction and though not quite equal in performance it was probably equal in practical terms (both can deal with most German tanks, unlike the older 75mm, but neither can deal with the "step up" to the last generation of heavy tanks.) The British seem to have come to a similar conclusion after they introduced the 77mm HV.
The 76mm was also far less of a "fudge" to get into the existing turret; the 17pdr was genuinely a tight fit and made for awkward loading,that the cartridge was also much larger didn't help. US tests with the 17pdr and APDS were also damning (they really couldn't hit anything!); thus they were far more willing to accept the moderate performance loss which (much more accurate) HVAP implied. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.23.134 ( talk) 22:39, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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