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Also, his successors? 96.50.10.234 ( talk) 07:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Wikified and fixed numerous spelling and grammar mistakes made in the English language. Rlevse 17:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Good grief, the article is so biased; I don’t know where to begin…-- Cigor 22:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the bias, can someone edit it to NPOV standard, and as far as the roots of Lazar Kolisev check out this: http://site.znain.com/macedonia/pictures-and-docs/requestsfrommacedonianpoliticians.htm
To add to this website. the documents are true, however NO Macedonians during WWII could write to the Bulgarian government as a Macedonian. They had to write under a Bulgarian name.
If one would study Yugoslav/Bulgarian relations between the 1940s - 1980s. one will learn that Kolisevski and the Yugoslav government did nothing but attack the Bulgarian government on Macedonia.
Two funny mistakes have been done in describing the second picture (from LCY congress 1978):
1) Kolisevski is not at the picture. The man described as Kolisevski is in fact Petar Stambolic from Serbia.[ [1]]
2) The man described as Dzemal Bijedic cannot be Dzemal Bijedic because this politician had died one year before the congress! [ [2]]
Wow, how come this has not been edited earlier? First of where in the world is the source to support the claim in his early years that he changed his surname so as to show his 'anti-Bulgarianess'. And this whole Bulgarian element throughout the article is atrocious, nothing is cohesive and nothing makes sense. EDITED.
Can someone please add citations to the information. Otherwise there will be no settlement about his ethnicity. By the way, a Google search for the following phrases: Lazar Koliševski, Lazar Kolišev, Lazar Kolishevski, Lazar Kolishev, Лазар Колишевски and Лазар Колишев all returned results stating an ethnic Macedonian ethnicity. Even Bulgarian Wikipedia says he was born in the "Republic of Macedonia" if you care to look it up. Frightner 10:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Lazar Kolisevski was born 1914, during World War 1. It was common to claim Bulgarian or Serbian Ethnicity for the Macedonian People depends of the current ruler in Macedonia. Macedonian People were fighting for the Bulgarian Army, also Macedonian People were fighting for the Serbian army. Serving in army does not make you Bulgarian and Serbian. None of the countries on the Balkans during World War 2 were recognizing Macedonia or Macedonian Nation and language.
Most of the people in Sveti Nikole and other places in Macedonia had Serbian last names.
Please note that even "Kolisev" is not a Bulgarian last name. My last name is "Janev" and I am Macedonian. Have never been Bulgarian. Same for my ancestry.
Not only "Kolisev" family but many other were claimed by Bulgarian invaders as Bulgarians. My ancestors were claimed Serbians during the times that Macedonia was under Serbian occupation.
After the liberation the injustice has ended for the Macedonian People. They finally had the freedom living in their own country to be free to express their ethnicity, language and culture.
You can for sure find a document that my grandfather was Serbian ( born 1914 ), but that is simply not relevant.
--Ejanev —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.253.197.167 (
talk) 18:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The fact that his father fought for the bulgarian army (sources please) doesent mean that he was of bulgarian descent, as im shure that the bulgarian army (as any mass of people) wasnt of pure ethnical backround. And i only wish that one day you have a knife under you through, and somebody makes you sign a confirmation that youre Turkish or something, and then its abused against you for your entire life.
I didn't post the response Laveol :p I always sign my posts. As for your summary, I agree, as long as his ethnicity is not under heavy debate as to whether he is Bulgarian or Macedonian :) Frightner 10:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Youre dishonoring the memory of a diceased man whos turning in his grave as you distort his family heritage and nacional conciousness,i have no reson to listen to you when you have nothing creddible to say. Falanga888
Answer to the accusations of Laveol: Your writings for the Lazar Kolisevski page are Nationalistic Bulgarian Propaganda. Your views are offensive to the Macedonian People. Refer to the Lazar Kolisevski under Macedonian Language Wikipedia:
[Kolisevski]
Your views are drastically different from the Lazar Kolisevski's page in Macedonian language, and Macedonian History.
I am born in Sveti Nikole, Republic of Macedonia. Have lived there for 30ty years and for sure I know that ethnic and cultural specifics of my town and my country.
Check [Factbook] for Macedonia, and people living in Macedonia. Please do try to find Bulgarian People there.
The book you have cited in the article is a Pure Bulgarian Nationalistic Progaganda, that negates the Macedonian Nation, Macedonian History and Macedonian Language.
I have started editing the page recently, purely as it contains untrue and offensive information which is far from the reality, and has one sole purpose: Negation of Macedonia and it's History and language.
Please note that under the [Kolisevski] there is no book from a Bulgarian author cited, but books published in Macedonia.
Please write for the areas where you can truly contribute with encyclopedic and scientific knowledge, without expressing views that are based on the reality. Bulgarian Propaganda is based on Romantic Natinalism from the 19th century, while Macedonia was still under the Ottoman Rule. In this century of open information and collaboration, You just can't continue with that outdated propadanda which is offensive to the Macedonian People.
Keep in mind that Lazar Kolisevski was a Macedonian. Has never expressed any claims that he is not Macedonian. Regardless that you have a link to a document asking the Bulgarian Tzar during the Second World War to revert his death sentence: During World War 2 and the occupation of Macedonia by Fascist Bulgaria ( Fascist as the same was true for Germany, Italy and others during World War 2 ), Bulgarian forces were not recognizing Macedonians as such, but as Bulgarians. Given this what was to write he in this letter. Also before the World War 2, between the Balkan Wars, and World War 1, and World War 2, the same people that were claimed by occupant Bulgaria as Bulgarians, were claimed by Serbia as Serbians. After the liberation from the Bulgarian and later German occupation, people were free to express their Nation as Macedonian.
Please do not return us in the times before the World War 2. Macedonian Nation is recognized as such, same is for Macedonian Language and the state - Republic of Macedonia.
So the edits were not true, Anti-Macedonian, and myself as a Macedonian, could not let that propaganda on Wikipedia exist.
I love Wikipedia, and I regard it as a great information resource. As your edits are not in line with what Wikipedia mostly is, I just edited the page to take the false information out.
And about the sources, you can refer to the books given in the Lazar Kolisevski page under Macedonian Wikipedia:
"Laveol" - What you are doing is a Bulgarian Nationalistic Propaganda, it is Anti-Macedonian. You are pushing Bulgarian views which do negate the Macedonian Nation, Language, Culture and History. Macedonian Historians do not agree with Bulgarian on many things. Citing a Bulgarian Book on Kolisevski is not relevant, as it is presenting Bulgarian View which is not in line with the reality. It belongs to 19th century not to 21st. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejanev ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
This books are published in Skopje. Lazar Kolisevski was living in Skopje, Republic in Macedonia. If he was living in Sofia, maybe you could state a Bulgarian book as a source. That is just not the case.
The Propaganda you are publishing here is highly offensive, and should be removed from Wikipedia.
--Ejanev —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejanev ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
When someone claims for a Macedonian person to be a Bulgarian, is an offense to the Macedonians, similar or worse when someone calls Bulgarian a Tatar. Kolisevski has always stated he has a Macedonian ancestry. He had done a lot to stop the Bulgarian Nationalistic Propaganda, that claims a lot of aspects about Macedonian Nation to be Bulgarian. These views do not exists in reality. These views are coming from the 19th century Romantic movement of the new Balkan nations, like Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. After they got independent from the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century, and Macedonia being under the Ottoman rule until early 20th century, all of these neighboring nations had assimilation policies towards the people living in Macedonia. The fruit of this policies were the first and second Balkan Wars when the territory of Macedonia was taken over from the Ottoman Empire and divided between these neighboring countries. And according to the new rulers of these territories, they were inhabited by Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks. Bulgaria got the smallest part, which was the reason for starting the Second Balkan War. These policies truly belong to the past and should rest in peace there. Macedonian people after the liberation and proclaiming of federal Macedonia as part of Yugoslavia, had for the first time in the recent history to proclaim there Nationality, Language and Culture as they feel it: Macedonian.-- Ejanev ( talk) 02:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
See the section below about the Macedonian last names, and common endings of the Macedonian last names, as well some common endings of the last names in the Slavic Languages.-- Ejanev ( talk) 18:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Even last name Kolisev is a Macedonian one. Last names ending with "ev", "ov" are not Bulgarian. It happens that you have those in Bulgaria. But you have those last names in Macedonia, Russia, Check Republic, and so on.
Kolisev is a Macedonian last name. Same is Kolisevski. You can find both kinds with "ov|ova", "ev|eva", "vski/vska", "ski/ska" and others in Republic of Macedonia. So changing a last name from Kolisev to Kolisevski does not have any Bulgarian/AntiBulgarian implications. My last name is "Janev". You can find in Macedonia also "Janevski", "Janeski". All of those are Macedonian last names. The fact that you can have "Janev" in Bulgaria does not translate to ethnicity/origin claims in Macedonia.
Here are some last names that finish on "ov", "ev" and are not Bulgarian neither Macedonian:
[ Sergei Lavrov] [ Anton Chekhov] [ Martina Navratilova]
So these last name endings are typical but not exclusive for some of the Slavic languages. Same is with "vski/vska", "ski/ska", "ich" which are shared between a number of Slavic languages.
To come back to Kolisevski: Kolisevski is a Macedonian last name, as well is Kolisev. If you can find a person living in Bulgaria with one of those last names, and probably you could not, does not gives any conclusion about ethnicity or being a Pro-Bulgarian. -- Ejanev ( talk) 17:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The sourcing for this article, especially those parts motivated by the notorious Macedonian-Bulgarian on-wiki polemics, are godawful, as usual. First, about the name: Usage of the name form in "-ev" seems to be absolutely marginal in English. There's one English-language publication cited for it, and that's really the only one that comes up in Google books. I couldn't see the actual context of the quote within that book; but what I could see is that even that book uses "-evski" more often, and lists only "-evski" in its index. Second, I don't see any reason why we would provide an extra "Bulgarian: ..." listing of the name form in the lead. The guy was never a Bulgarian citizen, except during the short period of fascist occupation, against which he was actively fighting. The claim that his parents were consciously pro-Bulgarian is sourced to an obscure book published in communist Bulgaria by an obscure communist Bulgarian diplomat; I have no idea what that book is about, but I would doubt we should treat it as a reliable source about anything relating to intra-communist petty nationalist disputes. In fact, the whole issue about both his name and his national identity seems to play a role exclusively in that context, of petty nationalist polemics, and nowhere else. I have no doubt that this person, like many others, may have had a name whose usage fluctuated between "-ev" and "-evski" forms, but even mentioning that topic seems to be giving undue weight to a nationalist fringe issue.
Finally, I strongly object against linking to just about anything on nationalist propaganda sites like "promacedonia.org".
In short, with most of these issues I'm effectually on the side of User:Ejanev. That doesn't change the fact that Ejanev has been edit-warring disruptively. But so has his opponent, User:Laveol; both are really on the same level here. Can we please all try being reasonable now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The image is related to the subject, and it may warrant inclusion in the article. However, it is presented in a biased manner contrary to Wikipedia policy & guidelines (
WP:NPOV). It should be stated in the clearest manner that this person stated that he was "Bulgarian" while under threat of execution by Bulgaria, and that his actions and statements clearly indicate he considered himself a Yugoslav (and/or) Macedonian, not a Bulgarian. Please bear in mind that the omission of information in a biased manner is just as misleading (and discouraged) as adding new biased sentences.
If a statement was given under duress it should be made clear that that was the case, or it should be completely disregarded as irrelevant. (I don't know if this is just me but if someone put a gun to my head, I'd probably say I was a martian, or a devout theist ;) --
DIREKTOR (
TALK) 16:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I am well aware of all that, yes, and I do not intend to enter another Macedonian/Bulgarian discussion. Here are the facts you are disregarding:
Finally, I'll add that any caption excluding the term "given under duress" and excluding the mention of an execution threat would be quite biased indeed. Especially if it tries ti depict the whole thing as "begging for mercy". -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:49, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Heh :), but as it happens the Communist Party doctrine at the time (1941) was not unitarianist (indeed the KPJ was among the most unique of its kind). The Communist Party openly advocated the "freedom of all six ethnicities" (Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, Muslim, Montenegrin and, indeed, Macedonian), this is what won them the huge support they enjoyed. Therefore, as he was a member of the Yugoslav Communist Party, it can only be assumed that he supported the goals of this same Communist Party. This thesis can also be confirmed by his post-1941 actions and statements.
As for the image... well, let me try to put this in the proper perspective:
From what I can gather, this is his appeal letter to the death sentence. It was added here to promote a POV, a Bulgarian POV that Koliševski identified himself as "Bulgarian". This is not only against
WP:NPOV, but is also quite unlikely and unsupported by any real
source. Now then, as I said, it is relevant as it is his appeal letter, but not because it shows him stating "I am Bulgarian". This statement proves nothing and has no bearing whatsoever on any encyclopedia.
In short, the only way to make this image, that was added to promote a POV, neutral (
WP:NPOV) and acceptable to all sides is to omit that sentence from the caption. The sentence may be retained in the text, but an image highlighting that particular part of his appeal in the caption is promoting a POV, and must be removed. This is why I recommend the caption to simply state "Lazar Koliševski's appeal to his death sentence." If you're here to improve the article, you won't miss that biased and likely incorrect sentence, as the image will still be there (with a perfectly correct caption). If you're here to promote Bulgarian POV, then you most likely won't agree and will insist on highlighting the "Bulgarian sentence" beyond all measure :) --
DIREKTOR (
TALK) 19:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
What evidence do you have that Lazar Koliševski "identified as Bulgarian at least once"? Surely you're not claiming that the death-row appeal letter can be used to prove that idea!? That is complete nonsense. (
WP:CAP is not Wikipedia policy and cannot be "violated", unlike
WP:NPOV.)
Let me get this straight: This person identified as Macedonian Yugoslav his entire life, and now you're saying a letter he wrote trying to avoid getting publicly shot is proof he "identified as Bulgarian" while on death row in a Bulgarian prison?! And all this at a time when he was one of the leading members of a political party advocating the view that his people (including himself) were ethnic Macedonians (and not Bulgarians)?!
Are you aware this is a serious encyclopedia? There is absolutely no way this letter or its image can be used as a foundation for speculations as to the "momentary ethnic identification" of Lazar Koliševski. Any mention of the letter's contents must be represented in a completely non-misleading manner, with the circumstances fully elaborated. What you're suggesting is so completely way off, I can assure you that any such insinuations have no chance of getting included in the article (at least when someone knowledgeable of WP policy has it on his watchlist). --
DIREKTOR (
TALK) 21:50, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Easily offended aren't we? :) I apologize if I turned out too harsh, it was not my intent. As far as I know I "commented on content not the contributor". Keep in mind that the tone of the conversation cannot be conveyed by written text. Now then:
-- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:20, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
DIRECTOR, did you ever read the document? I think, you do not know how complicated is the Macedonian Question. Stop with that failed political ideas - Yugoslavism and Communism. They are dead. The next will be the Macedonism. Be shure!
In 1934 the Comintern issued a resolution about the recognition of Macedonian ethnicity. [1] It must be noted that the existence of a separate Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed. [2] [3] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed. [4] Because of that Vardar Macedonia was the only region where Yugoslav communist leader Josip Broz Tito had not developed a strong Partisan movement after its annexation to Bulgaria in 1941. To improve the situation, in 1943 the Communist Party of Macedonia was established. Jingby ( talk) 15:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 03:56, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
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We know the latter are both incorrect and unreliable. Incorrect because we have a source stating his mother was not Bulgarian but Aromanian. Unreliable because he was sentenced to death and presumably sought to be spared his life by claiming Bulgarian descent. His father, per Bulgarian sources, was actually a "Serboman". It is inappropriate to use factually incorrect claims from a death row inmate as backing for his parents' ethnic origins. -- Local hero talk 04:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Local hero, what he claimed is that he didn't fill out only the plea for mercy, but not his personal card in prison. Also in relation to the death sentences of the then Bulgarian military courts, existed only one opportunity to submit a personally signed "appeal for clemency". Below the pleas for mercy, the three names of the petitioner can be seen written in his own hand. No third party names or signature of a lawyer are visible. By the way, the text that Kolisevski denies completing these documents is present in the article further down in the text.
PS. Local hero, read what wrote about the case of Kolisevski Kolendic here. According to him, Kolisevski developed 4 different versions about who and how signed his two requests for mercy, his last version being that no one signed them and they remained only unsigned blanks. And Kolendic claims that he personally received certified copies of the pleas for mercy in Bulgaria and deposited all these documents in the party archive of the Yugoslav Communist Party in 1946. They were personally signed by Kolisevski, but in 1989 they had already disappeared. Kolendic claims that the originals remained in Bulgaria. And they are indeed kept there, and are signed by Kolisevski himself and are in the military archive in Veliko Tarnovo. Jingiby ( talk) 16:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
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Also, his successors? 96.50.10.234 ( talk) 07:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Wikified and fixed numerous spelling and grammar mistakes made in the English language. Rlevse 17:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Good grief, the article is so biased; I don’t know where to begin…-- Cigor 22:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the bias, can someone edit it to NPOV standard, and as far as the roots of Lazar Kolisev check out this: http://site.znain.com/macedonia/pictures-and-docs/requestsfrommacedonianpoliticians.htm
To add to this website. the documents are true, however NO Macedonians during WWII could write to the Bulgarian government as a Macedonian. They had to write under a Bulgarian name.
If one would study Yugoslav/Bulgarian relations between the 1940s - 1980s. one will learn that Kolisevski and the Yugoslav government did nothing but attack the Bulgarian government on Macedonia.
Two funny mistakes have been done in describing the second picture (from LCY congress 1978):
1) Kolisevski is not at the picture. The man described as Kolisevski is in fact Petar Stambolic from Serbia.[ [1]]
2) The man described as Dzemal Bijedic cannot be Dzemal Bijedic because this politician had died one year before the congress! [ [2]]
Wow, how come this has not been edited earlier? First of where in the world is the source to support the claim in his early years that he changed his surname so as to show his 'anti-Bulgarianess'. And this whole Bulgarian element throughout the article is atrocious, nothing is cohesive and nothing makes sense. EDITED.
Can someone please add citations to the information. Otherwise there will be no settlement about his ethnicity. By the way, a Google search for the following phrases: Lazar Koliševski, Lazar Kolišev, Lazar Kolishevski, Lazar Kolishev, Лазар Колишевски and Лазар Колишев all returned results stating an ethnic Macedonian ethnicity. Even Bulgarian Wikipedia says he was born in the "Republic of Macedonia" if you care to look it up. Frightner 10:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Lazar Kolisevski was born 1914, during World War 1. It was common to claim Bulgarian or Serbian Ethnicity for the Macedonian People depends of the current ruler in Macedonia. Macedonian People were fighting for the Bulgarian Army, also Macedonian People were fighting for the Serbian army. Serving in army does not make you Bulgarian and Serbian. None of the countries on the Balkans during World War 2 were recognizing Macedonia or Macedonian Nation and language.
Most of the people in Sveti Nikole and other places in Macedonia had Serbian last names.
Please note that even "Kolisev" is not a Bulgarian last name. My last name is "Janev" and I am Macedonian. Have never been Bulgarian. Same for my ancestry.
Not only "Kolisev" family but many other were claimed by Bulgarian invaders as Bulgarians. My ancestors were claimed Serbians during the times that Macedonia was under Serbian occupation.
After the liberation the injustice has ended for the Macedonian People. They finally had the freedom living in their own country to be free to express their ethnicity, language and culture.
You can for sure find a document that my grandfather was Serbian ( born 1914 ), but that is simply not relevant.
--Ejanev —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.253.197.167 (
talk) 18:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The fact that his father fought for the bulgarian army (sources please) doesent mean that he was of bulgarian descent, as im shure that the bulgarian army (as any mass of people) wasnt of pure ethnical backround. And i only wish that one day you have a knife under you through, and somebody makes you sign a confirmation that youre Turkish or something, and then its abused against you for your entire life.
I didn't post the response Laveol :p I always sign my posts. As for your summary, I agree, as long as his ethnicity is not under heavy debate as to whether he is Bulgarian or Macedonian :) Frightner 10:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Youre dishonoring the memory of a diceased man whos turning in his grave as you distort his family heritage and nacional conciousness,i have no reson to listen to you when you have nothing creddible to say. Falanga888
Answer to the accusations of Laveol: Your writings for the Lazar Kolisevski page are Nationalistic Bulgarian Propaganda. Your views are offensive to the Macedonian People. Refer to the Lazar Kolisevski under Macedonian Language Wikipedia:
[Kolisevski]
Your views are drastically different from the Lazar Kolisevski's page in Macedonian language, and Macedonian History.
I am born in Sveti Nikole, Republic of Macedonia. Have lived there for 30ty years and for sure I know that ethnic and cultural specifics of my town and my country.
Check [Factbook] for Macedonia, and people living in Macedonia. Please do try to find Bulgarian People there.
The book you have cited in the article is a Pure Bulgarian Nationalistic Progaganda, that negates the Macedonian Nation, Macedonian History and Macedonian Language.
I have started editing the page recently, purely as it contains untrue and offensive information which is far from the reality, and has one sole purpose: Negation of Macedonia and it's History and language.
Please note that under the [Kolisevski] there is no book from a Bulgarian author cited, but books published in Macedonia.
Please write for the areas where you can truly contribute with encyclopedic and scientific knowledge, without expressing views that are based on the reality. Bulgarian Propaganda is based on Romantic Natinalism from the 19th century, while Macedonia was still under the Ottoman Rule. In this century of open information and collaboration, You just can't continue with that outdated propadanda which is offensive to the Macedonian People.
Keep in mind that Lazar Kolisevski was a Macedonian. Has never expressed any claims that he is not Macedonian. Regardless that you have a link to a document asking the Bulgarian Tzar during the Second World War to revert his death sentence: During World War 2 and the occupation of Macedonia by Fascist Bulgaria ( Fascist as the same was true for Germany, Italy and others during World War 2 ), Bulgarian forces were not recognizing Macedonians as such, but as Bulgarians. Given this what was to write he in this letter. Also before the World War 2, between the Balkan Wars, and World War 1, and World War 2, the same people that were claimed by occupant Bulgaria as Bulgarians, were claimed by Serbia as Serbians. After the liberation from the Bulgarian and later German occupation, people were free to express their Nation as Macedonian.
Please do not return us in the times before the World War 2. Macedonian Nation is recognized as such, same is for Macedonian Language and the state - Republic of Macedonia.
So the edits were not true, Anti-Macedonian, and myself as a Macedonian, could not let that propaganda on Wikipedia exist.
I love Wikipedia, and I regard it as a great information resource. As your edits are not in line with what Wikipedia mostly is, I just edited the page to take the false information out.
And about the sources, you can refer to the books given in the Lazar Kolisevski page under Macedonian Wikipedia:
"Laveol" - What you are doing is a Bulgarian Nationalistic Propaganda, it is Anti-Macedonian. You are pushing Bulgarian views which do negate the Macedonian Nation, Language, Culture and History. Macedonian Historians do not agree with Bulgarian on many things. Citing a Bulgarian Book on Kolisevski is not relevant, as it is presenting Bulgarian View which is not in line with the reality. It belongs to 19th century not to 21st. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejanev ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
This books are published in Skopje. Lazar Kolisevski was living in Skopje, Republic in Macedonia. If he was living in Sofia, maybe you could state a Bulgarian book as a source. That is just not the case.
The Propaganda you are publishing here is highly offensive, and should be removed from Wikipedia.
--Ejanev —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejanev ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
When someone claims for a Macedonian person to be a Bulgarian, is an offense to the Macedonians, similar or worse when someone calls Bulgarian a Tatar. Kolisevski has always stated he has a Macedonian ancestry. He had done a lot to stop the Bulgarian Nationalistic Propaganda, that claims a lot of aspects about Macedonian Nation to be Bulgarian. These views do not exists in reality. These views are coming from the 19th century Romantic movement of the new Balkan nations, like Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. After they got independent from the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century, and Macedonia being under the Ottoman rule until early 20th century, all of these neighboring nations had assimilation policies towards the people living in Macedonia. The fruit of this policies were the first and second Balkan Wars when the territory of Macedonia was taken over from the Ottoman Empire and divided between these neighboring countries. And according to the new rulers of these territories, they were inhabited by Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks. Bulgaria got the smallest part, which was the reason for starting the Second Balkan War. These policies truly belong to the past and should rest in peace there. Macedonian people after the liberation and proclaiming of federal Macedonia as part of Yugoslavia, had for the first time in the recent history to proclaim there Nationality, Language and Culture as they feel it: Macedonian.-- Ejanev ( talk) 02:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
See the section below about the Macedonian last names, and common endings of the Macedonian last names, as well some common endings of the last names in the Slavic Languages.-- Ejanev ( talk) 18:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Even last name Kolisev is a Macedonian one. Last names ending with "ev", "ov" are not Bulgarian. It happens that you have those in Bulgaria. But you have those last names in Macedonia, Russia, Check Republic, and so on.
Kolisev is a Macedonian last name. Same is Kolisevski. You can find both kinds with "ov|ova", "ev|eva", "vski/vska", "ski/ska" and others in Republic of Macedonia. So changing a last name from Kolisev to Kolisevski does not have any Bulgarian/AntiBulgarian implications. My last name is "Janev". You can find in Macedonia also "Janevski", "Janeski". All of those are Macedonian last names. The fact that you can have "Janev" in Bulgaria does not translate to ethnicity/origin claims in Macedonia.
Here are some last names that finish on "ov", "ev" and are not Bulgarian neither Macedonian:
[ Sergei Lavrov] [ Anton Chekhov] [ Martina Navratilova]
So these last name endings are typical but not exclusive for some of the Slavic languages. Same is with "vski/vska", "ski/ska", "ich" which are shared between a number of Slavic languages.
To come back to Kolisevski: Kolisevski is a Macedonian last name, as well is Kolisev. If you can find a person living in Bulgaria with one of those last names, and probably you could not, does not gives any conclusion about ethnicity or being a Pro-Bulgarian. -- Ejanev ( talk) 17:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The sourcing for this article, especially those parts motivated by the notorious Macedonian-Bulgarian on-wiki polemics, are godawful, as usual. First, about the name: Usage of the name form in "-ev" seems to be absolutely marginal in English. There's one English-language publication cited for it, and that's really the only one that comes up in Google books. I couldn't see the actual context of the quote within that book; but what I could see is that even that book uses "-evski" more often, and lists only "-evski" in its index. Second, I don't see any reason why we would provide an extra "Bulgarian: ..." listing of the name form in the lead. The guy was never a Bulgarian citizen, except during the short period of fascist occupation, against which he was actively fighting. The claim that his parents were consciously pro-Bulgarian is sourced to an obscure book published in communist Bulgaria by an obscure communist Bulgarian diplomat; I have no idea what that book is about, but I would doubt we should treat it as a reliable source about anything relating to intra-communist petty nationalist disputes. In fact, the whole issue about both his name and his national identity seems to play a role exclusively in that context, of petty nationalist polemics, and nowhere else. I have no doubt that this person, like many others, may have had a name whose usage fluctuated between "-ev" and "-evski" forms, but even mentioning that topic seems to be giving undue weight to a nationalist fringe issue.
Finally, I strongly object against linking to just about anything on nationalist propaganda sites like "promacedonia.org".
In short, with most of these issues I'm effectually on the side of User:Ejanev. That doesn't change the fact that Ejanev has been edit-warring disruptively. But so has his opponent, User:Laveol; both are really on the same level here. Can we please all try being reasonable now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The image is related to the subject, and it may warrant inclusion in the article. However, it is presented in a biased manner contrary to Wikipedia policy & guidelines (
WP:NPOV). It should be stated in the clearest manner that this person stated that he was "Bulgarian" while under threat of execution by Bulgaria, and that his actions and statements clearly indicate he considered himself a Yugoslav (and/or) Macedonian, not a Bulgarian. Please bear in mind that the omission of information in a biased manner is just as misleading (and discouraged) as adding new biased sentences.
If a statement was given under duress it should be made clear that that was the case, or it should be completely disregarded as irrelevant. (I don't know if this is just me but if someone put a gun to my head, I'd probably say I was a martian, or a devout theist ;) --
DIREKTOR (
TALK) 16:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I am well aware of all that, yes, and I do not intend to enter another Macedonian/Bulgarian discussion. Here are the facts you are disregarding:
Finally, I'll add that any caption excluding the term "given under duress" and excluding the mention of an execution threat would be quite biased indeed. Especially if it tries ti depict the whole thing as "begging for mercy". -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 16:49, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Heh :), but as it happens the Communist Party doctrine at the time (1941) was not unitarianist (indeed the KPJ was among the most unique of its kind). The Communist Party openly advocated the "freedom of all six ethnicities" (Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, Muslim, Montenegrin and, indeed, Macedonian), this is what won them the huge support they enjoyed. Therefore, as he was a member of the Yugoslav Communist Party, it can only be assumed that he supported the goals of this same Communist Party. This thesis can also be confirmed by his post-1941 actions and statements.
As for the image... well, let me try to put this in the proper perspective:
From what I can gather, this is his appeal letter to the death sentence. It was added here to promote a POV, a Bulgarian POV that Koliševski identified himself as "Bulgarian". This is not only against
WP:NPOV, but is also quite unlikely and unsupported by any real
source. Now then, as I said, it is relevant as it is his appeal letter, but not because it shows him stating "I am Bulgarian". This statement proves nothing and has no bearing whatsoever on any encyclopedia.
In short, the only way to make this image, that was added to promote a POV, neutral (
WP:NPOV) and acceptable to all sides is to omit that sentence from the caption. The sentence may be retained in the text, but an image highlighting that particular part of his appeal in the caption is promoting a POV, and must be removed. This is why I recommend the caption to simply state "Lazar Koliševski's appeal to his death sentence." If you're here to improve the article, you won't miss that biased and likely incorrect sentence, as the image will still be there (with a perfectly correct caption). If you're here to promote Bulgarian POV, then you most likely won't agree and will insist on highlighting the "Bulgarian sentence" beyond all measure :) --
DIREKTOR (
TALK) 19:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
What evidence do you have that Lazar Koliševski "identified as Bulgarian at least once"? Surely you're not claiming that the death-row appeal letter can be used to prove that idea!? That is complete nonsense. (
WP:CAP is not Wikipedia policy and cannot be "violated", unlike
WP:NPOV.)
Let me get this straight: This person identified as Macedonian Yugoslav his entire life, and now you're saying a letter he wrote trying to avoid getting publicly shot is proof he "identified as Bulgarian" while on death row in a Bulgarian prison?! And all this at a time when he was one of the leading members of a political party advocating the view that his people (including himself) were ethnic Macedonians (and not Bulgarians)?!
Are you aware this is a serious encyclopedia? There is absolutely no way this letter or its image can be used as a foundation for speculations as to the "momentary ethnic identification" of Lazar Koliševski. Any mention of the letter's contents must be represented in a completely non-misleading manner, with the circumstances fully elaborated. What you're suggesting is so completely way off, I can assure you that any such insinuations have no chance of getting included in the article (at least when someone knowledgeable of WP policy has it on his watchlist). --
DIREKTOR (
TALK) 21:50, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Easily offended aren't we? :) I apologize if I turned out too harsh, it was not my intent. As far as I know I "commented on content not the contributor". Keep in mind that the tone of the conversation cannot be conveyed by written text. Now then:
-- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:20, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
DIRECTOR, did you ever read the document? I think, you do not know how complicated is the Macedonian Question. Stop with that failed political ideas - Yugoslavism and Communism. They are dead. The next will be the Macedonism. Be shure!
In 1934 the Comintern issued a resolution about the recognition of Macedonian ethnicity. [1] It must be noted that the existence of a separate Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed. [2] [3] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed. [4] Because of that Vardar Macedonia was the only region where Yugoslav communist leader Josip Broz Tito had not developed a strong Partisan movement after its annexation to Bulgaria in 1941. To improve the situation, in 1943 the Communist Party of Macedonia was established. Jingby ( talk) 15:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 03:56, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
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We know the latter are both incorrect and unreliable. Incorrect because we have a source stating his mother was not Bulgarian but Aromanian. Unreliable because he was sentenced to death and presumably sought to be spared his life by claiming Bulgarian descent. His father, per Bulgarian sources, was actually a "Serboman". It is inappropriate to use factually incorrect claims from a death row inmate as backing for his parents' ethnic origins. -- Local hero talk 04:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Local hero, what he claimed is that he didn't fill out only the plea for mercy, but not his personal card in prison. Also in relation to the death sentences of the then Bulgarian military courts, existed only one opportunity to submit a personally signed "appeal for clemency". Below the pleas for mercy, the three names of the petitioner can be seen written in his own hand. No third party names or signature of a lawyer are visible. By the way, the text that Kolisevski denies completing these documents is present in the article further down in the text.
PS. Local hero, read what wrote about the case of Kolisevski Kolendic here. According to him, Kolisevski developed 4 different versions about who and how signed his two requests for mercy, his last version being that no one signed them and they remained only unsigned blanks. And Kolendic claims that he personally received certified copies of the pleas for mercy in Bulgaria and deposited all these documents in the party archive of the Yugoslav Communist Party in 1946. They were personally signed by Kolisevski, but in 1989 they had already disappeared. Kolendic claims that the originals remained in Bulgaria. And they are indeed kept there, and are signed by Kolisevski himself and are in the military archive in Veliko Tarnovo. Jingiby ( talk) 16:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC)