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There still appears to be confusion about the article's subject. It appears to include people who are/were Latin Americans of British ancestry, not citizens (or even residents) of the UK. SamEV ( talk) 21:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes completly agree with you...ive tried to delete some people that were not born or raised in the UK ...this does not include people that happen to be in the UK for work etc..LA Britons are Britons with latin american hertitage or cultural heritage/Identity via a mother or father..eg: Jade Jagger....which fro me includes people that happen to have British ancestry but came from a Latin american country seems to be corrct since many of them are of many ancestries..but if this needs ot be taken correctly then ..just need to delete some people that do not apply to the article..I repete THIS IS NOT AN ARTICLE ABOUT LATIN AMERICANS OF BRITISH ANCESTRY..they can be of any ancestry as long as they have been mainly raised in the UK...which qualifies to be a Briton... Hispano 19:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I've posted a comment at Talk:German American asking about the population figures there because there's obviously a discrepancy if the article is supposedly about citizens but the figure includes non-citizens. But other than using other articles as comparisons, all I can say is that residency is a very shaky thing to base being British on. For example, how long a period of residency is long enough? One year, two years, 10 years? And if we do, as I pointed out earlier, we'd classify lots of people as British who would never self-identify as such. The concept of "permanent residency" isn't very helpful because although we could use this for non-EU citizens with permanent immigration status in the UK, what about other Europeans who don't need to apply for residency to stay here? Cordless Larry ( talk) 23:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, that's a lot to respond to and as I said, I think we need other people to contribute. But a few points:
OK, thanks. I accept that this isn't the place to discuss wider Wikipedia policy and that the debate has gone far beyond my initial concerns about footballers being included. I'm glad that we at least seem to be in agreement that footballers shouldn't be included. I'll just a make a reponse on the your comment, "Do most foreign footballers and coaches stay, make the UK their permanent home, just like the economic and political immigrants? I think not." There's a bit of a problem here in that we don't know which immigrants will end up staying in the UK, whether they be footballers or not. To assume that an economic or political migrant is going to stay in the UK is surely to fall foul of WP:NOTCRYSTAL, is it not? Hence my argument that citizenship would be a more objective criteria but, as I say, I now accept that this is not the place to discuss that. A further problem is that, even if we agree that footballers should be excluded, they will still be included in the statistics because of the way the UK census collects data based on country of birth. By the way, I'm in no way claiming that anyone is "undeserving of being labelled 'Briton'". My concern was rather with how to define Britishness in an objective way. Cordless Larry ( talk) 16:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Hi, saw the note on WT:ETHNIC. I wish there were a cut 'n dried answer, but questions that revolve the issue of identity are almost always kinda messy—especially, of course, for large countries with significant populations of immigrants/migrant workers etc.. As far as stats go, we usually have no alternative other than to accept those generated by the government. Sometimes the government has an interest in manipulating or otherwise influencing those stats. Sometimes the stats are themselves based on fuzzy definitions. It's always a mess. So the mess in Wikipedia is not a function of Wikipedia's failure opr weakness; it is a function of the state of the world. As for British—the easiest thing to do is define them as the legal citizens of the land who additionally have reason to self-identify with another nation or land... That is not a perfect answer, but I am not sure that perfect answers are available. Ling.Nut ( talk) 05:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Look, we're grasping for oil-coated straws if we try to nail down precisely who is or is not a "Briton with Latin American ancestry". No matter how you define it, you will end up making someone or other unhappy. Upon further reflection, I retract my earlier suggestion and offer a new one. Here's my suggestion, then: Remove all names from the article. If you wanna make a Category:Britons with Latin American ancestry and then tag each article individually, then may the sun shine on your face and may the wind be at your back as you pursue your golden dreams. In that case, if there are edit wars regarding the status of any individual, they will occur where they should occur: on the talk page of that individual's article. Moreover, I kinda suspect that such limited warfare is far less likely to occur than are wars on the umbrella page (here)... My further opinion, though, is that I actually hate all those categories such as Category:Eurasian people. I mean, holy cow, just look at all the category cruft on the bottom of the Jessica Alba article. [Alternatively, you could just look at Jessica Alba— a far more pleasant way to pass the time. ;-)]. I am starting to believe that all such categories add exactly zero-point-zero value to the encyclopedia, and actually exist as the outcome of some rather lame attempt for someone or other to get a feeling that they are somehow contributing. But I also believe that if I tried to WP:CfD those categories, the aforementioned folks would come out howling and swinging. So delete all the names and push all the cats through WP:CfD if you have the endurance for the screamfest; else follow the path of least resistance and merely delete the names from the article. Done talking. Ling.Nut ( talk) 12:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Larry, of 122 pages and subcategories in Category:Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom, here's a full accounting and the forms of the titles of the articles and subcategories relating to ethnic groups (some are not; more below):
So here we have 72 articles specifically about UK ethnic groups of what could be called more recent, immigrant origins (as opposed to the older British groups, or "indigenous British groups", as some might prefer; let's not make a federal case out of this terminology), with titles that refer to the UK, and 63 of them are in the form 'X British', or 'British X', or 'X Briton(s)'. Obviously, the inclusion of "British" or "Briton(s)" in the titles has overwhelming prevalence. SamEV ( talk) 00:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
User Stevvvv4444 ( Talk) created and is the sole author of the following Template:British Latinos (the OR tag is my addition): {{ British Latinos}} I believe this is a completely OR template. Does anyone wish to comment at Template talk:British Latinos? Thank you. The Ogre ( talk) 13:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Template:British Latinos has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — The Ogre ( talk) 15:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The articles Argentines in the United Kingdom, Brazilian British, Colombian British and Cuban British should all be merged into this one, as they are very short. Cop 663 ( talk) 14:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the merging template from the articles in question, because there seems to be more people opposed to merging than in favour of combining them. There seems to be little progress or reasoning behind merging them, and I believe it would be best to keep the articles as they are as they all contain relevant information that helps distinguish each community, as most other ethnic minority communities in the UK have been. Thank you. Stevvvv4444 ( talk) 17:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
My last edit was saved prematurely, as I was typing my edit summary. What I was writing is that I understand your point, 90.210.101.121. However, the figures have to add up. One says 76K South American immigrants; the other says 100K UK-born. That adds up to 176K, not 250K, or 500K. So change the other figures, preferably - certainly! - with sources. Then change the total to reflect that. SamEV ( talk) 18:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The main groups section starts with "The Latin American category comprises...", which leave me wondering, according to who? The article already establishes that there is no Latin American category in the census. Can anyone suggest a better wording, because "category" sounds somewhat more official than what is subsequently described. Cordless Larry ( talk) 09:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Done
SamEV (
talk)
13:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
User:Stevvvv4444 has usefully provided a reference to an OECD spreadsheet that has data from the UK census for each country of birth. However, the data don't support the estimates in the article at all, so I'm not sure why it's being used as a reference. Actually, I think it's more reliable than any of the guesstimates that we currently have, so we should update the page accordingly. For example, the article states that there are 60,000-80,000 Chileans, but the reference says there are only 5,131. Obviously this doesn't include UK-born Chilean Britons, but I'm confused as to why Stevvvv4444 is using the spredsheet as a reference when it clearly doesn't support the estimate. Cordless Larry ( talk) 13:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
The 700,000 - 1,000,000 figure was a ludicrous estimate based on an unreliable source. There are slightly more than 85,000, but certainly not a million. The true figure will be around 200,000 - 250,000. I suggest that we remove this unreliable statistic immediately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.217.196 ( talk) 11:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
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I know it proved controversial above, but I'm going to suggest moving the article to Latin Americans in the United Kingdom again. This would avoid the problem of the title being a neologism and also reflect the contents of the article better since not all Latin Americans in the UK are British. This also follows a recent trend of articles in Category:Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom being renamed in such a way. Cordless Larry ( talk) 09:48, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm proposing that all of the nationality groups linked to from this article be merged here. The reasons for this are as follows:
What do other people think? Cordless Larry ( talk) 22:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that Argentines in the United Kingdom be merged here, as suggested in the article's AfD. There is very little material in the article but what there is could usefully be included here under the Argentines heading. Cordless Larry ( talk) 08:20, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
There's currently a discussion concerning this page on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Gabbe ( talk) 13:50, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
I removed mention and depiction of British-born people. The article's focus is overwhelmingly on immigrants from Latin America. Those who are not immigrants don't *have* to be included just for the sake of including in some article. It does tremendous violence to their status as BRITONS to include them in this article, a fact that doesn't seem to bother some who've been quite active here.
Let the British born who are of Latin American ancestry go without an article for now. SamEV ( talk) 05:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that we merge Demographics of Latin Americans in the United Kingdom into the main Latin Americans in the United Kingdom article. The article both discuss the demographics of the Latin American community in the UK and I can't see much sense in having two articles doing that. The demographics article goes into more depth, but merging them would make for a better overall article. Cordless Larry ( talk) 14:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I moved the article for these reasons:
1) the article states that UK-born people fall under its scope 2) it depicts UK-born people 3) it includes, in the infobox, the figures of "700,000 - 1,000,000+", and states that these are the "Est. number of Britons of Latin American origin"; i.e. not "Latin Americans" in the UK, but "Britons" 4) the sentence "According to the 2001 UK Census, at least 62,735 Latin Americans in the United Kingdom were born in their respective nations of origin." That means that most of the 700K-1M are UK-born 5) conclusion: the article is now mostly about UK-born people and should be titled accordingly. Even if not, the new title has the advantage that "Briton" can mean "resident of Britain", and "of Latin American origin" can be read in such a way as to not strictly imply that the person is a foreigner living in the UK; it can mean "of Latin American descent".
SamEV ( talk) 06:27, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Given the lack of responses here, I've boldly moved the article to Latin American migration to the United Kingdom, per my rationale given above. Cordless Larry ( talk) 14:13, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
With the new 2011 data providing a substantiated estimate of 186,500, there is no longer any reason to keep the "700,000 to 1,000,000" guesstimate, which has proven to be wildly inaccurate...and, frankly, the guesstimate should never have been included at all, as it was based on nothing credible whatsoever. One can talk about "rapidly-growing" populations, but the idea that the Latin American population in the UK ballooned from ~80,000 in 2001 to ~700,000 in 2008, as was implied above, is incredible. (When you consider the annual immigration figures, it would have meant that a full fifth of all immigrants to the UK were Latin Americans, which is not very plausible.) At any rate, we have real numbers now, and any and all statistics extrapolated from a poet/booster's made-up "guesstimates" need to go. 98.26.182.144 ( talk) 01:21, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
"Hyde Park had the highest number of South Americans". How does a public park have the highest population of South Americans? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.62.205.219 ( talk) 16:55, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
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What about the other parts of the UK? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.164.11 ( talk) 12:24, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
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![]() | The contents of the Argentines in the United Kingdom page were merged into Latin American migration to the United Kingdom. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
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Image:Desmondlost.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 07:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
There still appears to be confusion about the article's subject. It appears to include people who are/were Latin Americans of British ancestry, not citizens (or even residents) of the UK. SamEV ( talk) 21:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes completly agree with you...ive tried to delete some people that were not born or raised in the UK ...this does not include people that happen to be in the UK for work etc..LA Britons are Britons with latin american hertitage or cultural heritage/Identity via a mother or father..eg: Jade Jagger....which fro me includes people that happen to have British ancestry but came from a Latin american country seems to be corrct since many of them are of many ancestries..but if this needs ot be taken correctly then ..just need to delete some people that do not apply to the article..I repete THIS IS NOT AN ARTICLE ABOUT LATIN AMERICANS OF BRITISH ANCESTRY..they can be of any ancestry as long as they have been mainly raised in the UK...which qualifies to be a Briton... Hispano 19:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I've posted a comment at Talk:German American asking about the population figures there because there's obviously a discrepancy if the article is supposedly about citizens but the figure includes non-citizens. But other than using other articles as comparisons, all I can say is that residency is a very shaky thing to base being British on. For example, how long a period of residency is long enough? One year, two years, 10 years? And if we do, as I pointed out earlier, we'd classify lots of people as British who would never self-identify as such. The concept of "permanent residency" isn't very helpful because although we could use this for non-EU citizens with permanent immigration status in the UK, what about other Europeans who don't need to apply for residency to stay here? Cordless Larry ( talk) 23:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, that's a lot to respond to and as I said, I think we need other people to contribute. But a few points:
OK, thanks. I accept that this isn't the place to discuss wider Wikipedia policy and that the debate has gone far beyond my initial concerns about footballers being included. I'm glad that we at least seem to be in agreement that footballers shouldn't be included. I'll just a make a reponse on the your comment, "Do most foreign footballers and coaches stay, make the UK their permanent home, just like the economic and political immigrants? I think not." There's a bit of a problem here in that we don't know which immigrants will end up staying in the UK, whether they be footballers or not. To assume that an economic or political migrant is going to stay in the UK is surely to fall foul of WP:NOTCRYSTAL, is it not? Hence my argument that citizenship would be a more objective criteria but, as I say, I now accept that this is not the place to discuss that. A further problem is that, even if we agree that footballers should be excluded, they will still be included in the statistics because of the way the UK census collects data based on country of birth. By the way, I'm in no way claiming that anyone is "undeserving of being labelled 'Briton'". My concern was rather with how to define Britishness in an objective way. Cordless Larry ( talk) 16:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Hi, saw the note on WT:ETHNIC. I wish there were a cut 'n dried answer, but questions that revolve the issue of identity are almost always kinda messy—especially, of course, for large countries with significant populations of immigrants/migrant workers etc.. As far as stats go, we usually have no alternative other than to accept those generated by the government. Sometimes the government has an interest in manipulating or otherwise influencing those stats. Sometimes the stats are themselves based on fuzzy definitions. It's always a mess. So the mess in Wikipedia is not a function of Wikipedia's failure opr weakness; it is a function of the state of the world. As for British—the easiest thing to do is define them as the legal citizens of the land who additionally have reason to self-identify with another nation or land... That is not a perfect answer, but I am not sure that perfect answers are available. Ling.Nut ( talk) 05:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Look, we're grasping for oil-coated straws if we try to nail down precisely who is or is not a "Briton with Latin American ancestry". No matter how you define it, you will end up making someone or other unhappy. Upon further reflection, I retract my earlier suggestion and offer a new one. Here's my suggestion, then: Remove all names from the article. If you wanna make a Category:Britons with Latin American ancestry and then tag each article individually, then may the sun shine on your face and may the wind be at your back as you pursue your golden dreams. In that case, if there are edit wars regarding the status of any individual, they will occur where they should occur: on the talk page of that individual's article. Moreover, I kinda suspect that such limited warfare is far less likely to occur than are wars on the umbrella page (here)... My further opinion, though, is that I actually hate all those categories such as Category:Eurasian people. I mean, holy cow, just look at all the category cruft on the bottom of the Jessica Alba article. [Alternatively, you could just look at Jessica Alba— a far more pleasant way to pass the time. ;-)]. I am starting to believe that all such categories add exactly zero-point-zero value to the encyclopedia, and actually exist as the outcome of some rather lame attempt for someone or other to get a feeling that they are somehow contributing. But I also believe that if I tried to WP:CfD those categories, the aforementioned folks would come out howling and swinging. So delete all the names and push all the cats through WP:CfD if you have the endurance for the screamfest; else follow the path of least resistance and merely delete the names from the article. Done talking. Ling.Nut ( talk) 12:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Larry, of 122 pages and subcategories in Category:Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom, here's a full accounting and the forms of the titles of the articles and subcategories relating to ethnic groups (some are not; more below):
So here we have 72 articles specifically about UK ethnic groups of what could be called more recent, immigrant origins (as opposed to the older British groups, or "indigenous British groups", as some might prefer; let's not make a federal case out of this terminology), with titles that refer to the UK, and 63 of them are in the form 'X British', or 'British X', or 'X Briton(s)'. Obviously, the inclusion of "British" or "Briton(s)" in the titles has overwhelming prevalence. SamEV ( talk) 00:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
User Stevvvv4444 ( Talk) created and is the sole author of the following Template:British Latinos (the OR tag is my addition): {{ British Latinos}} I believe this is a completely OR template. Does anyone wish to comment at Template talk:British Latinos? Thank you. The Ogre ( talk) 13:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Template:British Latinos has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — The Ogre ( talk) 15:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
The articles Argentines in the United Kingdom, Brazilian British, Colombian British and Cuban British should all be merged into this one, as they are very short. Cop 663 ( talk) 14:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the merging template from the articles in question, because there seems to be more people opposed to merging than in favour of combining them. There seems to be little progress or reasoning behind merging them, and I believe it would be best to keep the articles as they are as they all contain relevant information that helps distinguish each community, as most other ethnic minority communities in the UK have been. Thank you. Stevvvv4444 ( talk) 17:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
My last edit was saved prematurely, as I was typing my edit summary. What I was writing is that I understand your point, 90.210.101.121. However, the figures have to add up. One says 76K South American immigrants; the other says 100K UK-born. That adds up to 176K, not 250K, or 500K. So change the other figures, preferably - certainly! - with sources. Then change the total to reflect that. SamEV ( talk) 18:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The main groups section starts with "The Latin American category comprises...", which leave me wondering, according to who? The article already establishes that there is no Latin American category in the census. Can anyone suggest a better wording, because "category" sounds somewhat more official than what is subsequently described. Cordless Larry ( talk) 09:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Done
SamEV (
talk)
13:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
User:Stevvvv4444 has usefully provided a reference to an OECD spreadsheet that has data from the UK census for each country of birth. However, the data don't support the estimates in the article at all, so I'm not sure why it's being used as a reference. Actually, I think it's more reliable than any of the guesstimates that we currently have, so we should update the page accordingly. For example, the article states that there are 60,000-80,000 Chileans, but the reference says there are only 5,131. Obviously this doesn't include UK-born Chilean Britons, but I'm confused as to why Stevvvv4444 is using the spredsheet as a reference when it clearly doesn't support the estimate. Cordless Larry ( talk) 13:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
The 700,000 - 1,000,000 figure was a ludicrous estimate based on an unreliable source. There are slightly more than 85,000, but certainly not a million. The true figure will be around 200,000 - 250,000. I suggest that we remove this unreliable statistic immediately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.217.196 ( talk) 11:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
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I know it proved controversial above, but I'm going to suggest moving the article to Latin Americans in the United Kingdom again. This would avoid the problem of the title being a neologism and also reflect the contents of the article better since not all Latin Americans in the UK are British. This also follows a recent trend of articles in Category:Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom being renamed in such a way. Cordless Larry ( talk) 09:48, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm proposing that all of the nationality groups linked to from this article be merged here. The reasons for this are as follows:
What do other people think? Cordless Larry ( talk) 22:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm suggesting that Argentines in the United Kingdom be merged here, as suggested in the article's AfD. There is very little material in the article but what there is could usefully be included here under the Argentines heading. Cordless Larry ( talk) 08:20, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
There's currently a discussion concerning this page on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Gabbe ( talk) 13:50, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
I removed mention and depiction of British-born people. The article's focus is overwhelmingly on immigrants from Latin America. Those who are not immigrants don't *have* to be included just for the sake of including in some article. It does tremendous violence to their status as BRITONS to include them in this article, a fact that doesn't seem to bother some who've been quite active here.
Let the British born who are of Latin American ancestry go without an article for now. SamEV ( talk) 05:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that we merge Demographics of Latin Americans in the United Kingdom into the main Latin Americans in the United Kingdom article. The article both discuss the demographics of the Latin American community in the UK and I can't see much sense in having two articles doing that. The demographics article goes into more depth, but merging them would make for a better overall article. Cordless Larry ( talk) 14:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I moved the article for these reasons:
1) the article states that UK-born people fall under its scope 2) it depicts UK-born people 3) it includes, in the infobox, the figures of "700,000 - 1,000,000+", and states that these are the "Est. number of Britons of Latin American origin"; i.e. not "Latin Americans" in the UK, but "Britons" 4) the sentence "According to the 2001 UK Census, at least 62,735 Latin Americans in the United Kingdom were born in their respective nations of origin." That means that most of the 700K-1M are UK-born 5) conclusion: the article is now mostly about UK-born people and should be titled accordingly. Even if not, the new title has the advantage that "Briton" can mean "resident of Britain", and "of Latin American origin" can be read in such a way as to not strictly imply that the person is a foreigner living in the UK; it can mean "of Latin American descent".
SamEV ( talk) 06:27, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Given the lack of responses here, I've boldly moved the article to Latin American migration to the United Kingdom, per my rationale given above. Cordless Larry ( talk) 14:13, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
With the new 2011 data providing a substantiated estimate of 186,500, there is no longer any reason to keep the "700,000 to 1,000,000" guesstimate, which has proven to be wildly inaccurate...and, frankly, the guesstimate should never have been included at all, as it was based on nothing credible whatsoever. One can talk about "rapidly-growing" populations, but the idea that the Latin American population in the UK ballooned from ~80,000 in 2001 to ~700,000 in 2008, as was implied above, is incredible. (When you consider the annual immigration figures, it would have meant that a full fifth of all immigrants to the UK were Latin Americans, which is not very plausible.) At any rate, we have real numbers now, and any and all statistics extrapolated from a poet/booster's made-up "guesstimates" need to go. 98.26.182.144 ( talk) 01:21, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
"Hyde Park had the highest number of South Americans". How does a public park have the highest population of South Americans? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.62.205.219 ( talk) 16:55, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
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What about the other parts of the UK? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.164.11 ( talk) 12:24, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
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