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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
A basic and quite drastic re-write's overdue, with a more detailed, chronological and contextual approach. There'll be a deal of stripping out; very little citation's provided in the article as it stands, and the good, specialist scholarship available on this topic makes redundant most of what's based (presumably) on the Encyclopedias listed as references. I'm surprised that the topic is regarded as one of low importance. Commonplace and domestic practices are the stuff of real, everyday lives. The Lares cult was fostered as part of Rome's Augustan transformation; little statues with some big issues attached. Haploidavey ( talk) 16:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I've pasted in disproportionately long section on her; the rest of the article will eventually be of equal weight. She's there because without her, the Lares themselves lack dimension. Taylor and others lead me to disagree on Lar - at least the archaic Lar - as truly equivalent to Genius loci; the Lar, if genius, seems essentially intermediate and liminal; boundary rather than place, though one does not of course preclude the other. For now (and the next couple of weeks), could interested editors just bear with me? Haploidavey ( talk) 17:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Is there a content reason for placing the current image (which isn't of great photographic quality) at the top instead of the Lar from Spain? If there's a reason, I didn't want to swap them just because the one from Spain's prettier. Cynwolfe ( talk) 03:30, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
As usual in articles on roman religion edited by Haplodavey and Cynwulf using Anglophone sources undue emphasis and weight is given to augustan cults and imperial restoration without digging into its grounding traditions, often primitive. How can we have the list of the Lares starting with augusti? This should be at most at the end. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 02:53, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
I did some editing on the important Lares Grundules. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 05:12, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
While Latin usage always has the plural, whenever one comes across a Lar (Caealestis, Militaris etc.) this is certainly Etruscan.
My readings have led me to think that the etymology of Lares is from laveres, stones, rocks. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 14:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Arnobius states from Greek laurai meaning vici. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 08:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome#Describing gods as Sabine which relates to recent edits here and in other articles. NebY ( talk) 18:25, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
Just squeezing "and Sabine" in beside "Roman religion" in the introduction is seriously WP:UNDUE, completely disproportionate to Varro's simple assertion - or his educated guesses and the remnants thereof - which besides are not automatically accepted by modern, reliable scholarly sources; which is probably why Varro's list of (mostly) Sabine connections (maybe) is reproduced in rather cagey, uncommitted fashion, not always taken literally. See for example Woodard, 2006, pp.116-117, describing the Mother of the Lares (aka Mania (deity) at the darkest edges of Etruscan and Roman religion in Ovid's Fasti (see the Mother of the Lares article).
Varro is interesting and erudite but being Varro does not always make him right. He sometimes contradicts himself. He has the limitations of any primary source, and all the more reason to handle with care, not to introject our own ideas, not to stretch the article to fit them. Was he just trying to fit particular altars and shrines into Rome's traditional foundation myth? And traditions regarding Titus Tatius? Not for us to say. There's virtually nothing known about Sabine culture or Sabine religion, save for the legendary "coming together as one" through truce. Which I suppose to be shorthand for Roman domination. Whatever "Sabine religion" on the ground was like by Varro's day, I'd guess it had long been subsumed, and become Roman. Haploidavey ( talk) 20:36, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
Hardly any mainstream secondary sources make anything of the Sabine connection, let alone a Sabine origin for the Lares and their Mother. They simply mention the possibility, and the primary source, without further comment. This being the majority viewpoint, we should follow it. Haploidavey ( talk) 20:51, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
A basic and quite drastic re-write's overdue, with a more detailed, chronological and contextual approach. There'll be a deal of stripping out; very little citation's provided in the article as it stands, and the good, specialist scholarship available on this topic makes redundant most of what's based (presumably) on the Encyclopedias listed as references. I'm surprised that the topic is regarded as one of low importance. Commonplace and domestic practices are the stuff of real, everyday lives. The Lares cult was fostered as part of Rome's Augustan transformation; little statues with some big issues attached. Haploidavey ( talk) 16:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I've pasted in disproportionately long section on her; the rest of the article will eventually be of equal weight. She's there because without her, the Lares themselves lack dimension. Taylor and others lead me to disagree on Lar - at least the archaic Lar - as truly equivalent to Genius loci; the Lar, if genius, seems essentially intermediate and liminal; boundary rather than place, though one does not of course preclude the other. For now (and the next couple of weeks), could interested editors just bear with me? Haploidavey ( talk) 17:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Is there a content reason for placing the current image (which isn't of great photographic quality) at the top instead of the Lar from Spain? If there's a reason, I didn't want to swap them just because the one from Spain's prettier. Cynwolfe ( talk) 03:30, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
As usual in articles on roman religion edited by Haplodavey and Cynwulf using Anglophone sources undue emphasis and weight is given to augustan cults and imperial restoration without digging into its grounding traditions, often primitive. How can we have the list of the Lares starting with augusti? This should be at most at the end. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 02:53, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
I did some editing on the important Lares Grundules. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 05:12, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
While Latin usage always has the plural, whenever one comes across a Lar (Caealestis, Militaris etc.) this is certainly Etruscan.
My readings have led me to think that the etymology of Lares is from laveres, stones, rocks. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 14:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Arnobius states from Greek laurai meaning vici. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 08:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome#Describing gods as Sabine which relates to recent edits here and in other articles. NebY ( talk) 18:25, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
Just squeezing "and Sabine" in beside "Roman religion" in the introduction is seriously WP:UNDUE, completely disproportionate to Varro's simple assertion - or his educated guesses and the remnants thereof - which besides are not automatically accepted by modern, reliable scholarly sources; which is probably why Varro's list of (mostly) Sabine connections (maybe) is reproduced in rather cagey, uncommitted fashion, not always taken literally. See for example Woodard, 2006, pp.116-117, describing the Mother of the Lares (aka Mania (deity) at the darkest edges of Etruscan and Roman religion in Ovid's Fasti (see the Mother of the Lares article).
Varro is interesting and erudite but being Varro does not always make him right. He sometimes contradicts himself. He has the limitations of any primary source, and all the more reason to handle with care, not to introject our own ideas, not to stretch the article to fit them. Was he just trying to fit particular altars and shrines into Rome's traditional foundation myth? And traditions regarding Titus Tatius? Not for us to say. There's virtually nothing known about Sabine culture or Sabine religion, save for the legendary "coming together as one" through truce. Which I suppose to be shorthand for Roman domination. Whatever "Sabine religion" on the ground was like by Varro's day, I'd guess it had long been subsumed, and become Roman. Haploidavey ( talk) 20:36, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
Hardly any mainstream secondary sources make anything of the Sabine connection, let alone a Sabine origin for the Lares and their Mother. They simply mention the possibility, and the primary source, without further comment. This being the majority viewpoint, we should follow it. Haploidavey ( talk) 20:51, 29 June 2023 (UTC)