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DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page (Archive 2) covers approximately the dates between 17 November 2005 and 16 August 2006.
Archive 1 covers approximately the dates January 2004 to 16 November 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Landmark Education/Archive03. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Kat'n'Yarn 16:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
(Note: Topic "Psychotic Episodes associated with est" by L K Tucker, 25 February 2006, already located on this archive was moved to a chronological position in the archive below.)
I have moved this comment to the end of the article to preserve the chronological sequence of the discussion. DaveApter 10:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I've reorganized the sections that remained (sourced comments that were supportive or critical of landmark). I've split the text into two main sections: views supportive of LE and views critical of LE, and tried to split each piece into useful subsections. FuelWagon 15:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Margaret Singer, a Professor at UC Berkeley did mention LE in her book "Cults in Our Midst". LE sued and she issued a statement that she never held LE to be a cult. I don't know if you want this stuff in the historical record. LE also sued Cynthia Kisser for the same allegation and won a retraction. There have also been lawsuits in the Netherlands where LE won retractions. In the Netherlands, those stating LE was a cult could not come up with a single definition of a cult that LE met. Does this go in for historical record? Sm1969 21:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Here are some URLs re Margaret Singer and cults:
http://home.swbell.net/danchase/art.htm http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/msing.pdf Sm1969 03:31, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
(pasted from above) several significant points of controversy are not addressed in the present article which were moved off into the Talk page below: 1) psychological consequences versus post hoc reasoning, 2) is LE religous or not, 3) does it cause favorable results or not for customers, 4) are assistants volunteering for a for-profit being exploited or not, 5) the whole cult or not controversy (which should be separated into all the points and testimony so rendered), 6) brainwashing or powerful customer value, 7) Werner Erhard: still an influence or not.
I've broken these up into subsections below for easier discussion. please insert relevant discussions into the sections below. FuelWagon 01:58, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
The two legal cases cited in the article (Stephanie Ney) where the jury ruled in LE's favor and the Appeals court found that she could not show proximate physical causality and Been versus Weed with LE as a cross-defendent are the two main references for assertions of adverse psychological effects. Martin Lell in his book about Brainwashing could also be included in this context with Art Schreiber's rebuttal (that Martin Lell did not say he was brainwashed).
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/24/LFIF-06.pdf You could quote item 6. verbatim beginning with "From time to time,"
Here is the suicide rate in the US in 2001 (CDC 2004) at 30,622 people. LE's disclaimer says "suicide or other dangerous behaviour" and that it is less than 1/1000 of one percent. In other words, "less than 10 people per million" for suicide or other dangerous behaviour.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm
The CIA shows the US population to be 295 million for a July 2005 estimate. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html
So, the rate of "suicide or other dangerous behaviour" is less than the suicide rate in the US in general. Sm1969 05:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/050106_odds_of_dying.html Here are the lifetime odds of dying from heart disease: 1 in 5, cancer: 1 in 7, car accident 1 in 100, bee sting or snake bite: 1 in 100,000.
None of the two court cases ever held LE liable for adverse psychological effects in 850,000 customers since 1991.
I would also include a link to Post Hoc reasoning on Wikipedia for the rebuttal.
Here is a good quote from Mark Kamin (LE's spokesperson):
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark35.html Mark Kamin, Landmark's fast-talking PR head, has as many questions as I do when he calls from Houston. He's tape-recording our conversation. What of those who've reported breakdowns after participating in the Forum? Kamin says they're lying, out to make a buck. "You know there are people who say, 'You hit me from behind in your car,' even though they stopped in the middle of the freeway."
The main proponents of the interpretation that LE is antirelogious are ApologeticsIndex and its cited reference The Watchman Fellowship (www.watchman.org)
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l30.html
Here is not a direct link, but a quote from http://skepdic.com/landmark.html
Paul Derengowski, formerly of the Christian cult-watch group Watchman.org, thinks that Landmark "has theological implications." Since the training seems to emphasize that one's past and current beliefs are hindering self-growth, it is easy to see why defenders of traditional religions would fear such programs as Landmark Forum. In effect, to those who are members of traditional faiths, programs such as Landmark are saying: your religion is a hindrance to becoming your true self.
Here is a supporter from Hare Krishna: http://www.vnn.org/world/9801/02-1450/index.html
LE responded by having actual customers who are members of the clergy from various religions. First a general statement: http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=658
Is Landmark's education in the same family or genre as religion or therapy? The content, techniques, procedures, and delivery of The Landmark Forum have been carefully examined by dozens of psychiatrists, psychologists, clergy members, and other professionals. They have concluded that Landmark's programs are not psychological, cult-like, religious, or sociological in nature. In fact, many of these professionals, following their research, fully endorsed Landmark and its programs. See expert opinions or independent research.
Here are the specific statements:
Father Gregg Banaga http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=22&mid=11020&bottom=3057&siteObjectID=566
Father Eamonn O'Conner http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=22&mid=11020&bottom=37&siteObjectID=493
Sister Iris Clarke http://www.ilovepossibility.info/landmark_forum_21.htm
Father Gerry O'Rourke http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/GERRY-~1.PDF
Father Basil Pennington http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/BASIL-~1.PDF
Bishop Otis Charles, Episcopal Church http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/BISHOP~1.PDF
Rabbi Arnold Mark Belzer http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/Belzer.pdf
Sister Miriam Quinn, O.P. http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/SISTER~1.PDF
Also, from Time Magazine: Time Magazine (The Best of Est?) http://www.wernererhard.com/wernererhardtimemagazine.htm "Rabbi Yisroel Persky said he "remains unfazed by what he calls the Forum's common-sense concepts cloaked in esoteric packaging." (He did not say it offended his religion.)
http://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/register.cgi/tablet-00286 Article from The Tablet (an International Catholic Weekly, requiring free registration)
The only point where my Christianity tripped up was at a session where we were asked to consider the statement, "Life is empty and meaningless". My faith made me reject the statement, but others found it liberating. I asked Angelo, a Catholic, how he understood it. "I say things dramatically in the Forum to get people to think", he said. "I cannot discover what God truly has planned for me until I let go of all the meaning I have put in place, especially as a child and young adult." Several Catholic priests and religious sisters have endorsed Landmark. The Trappist monk Basil Pennington has praised the Forum for bringing about a "full human enlivenment" which make people "more lively" in the practice of whatever faith they have.
I know of zero instances where A) a member of the clergy did the Landmark Forum and B) said it offended their religion. The examples here are Judaism and Christianity.
Here is the main attributed adverse assertion I know of: http://skepdic.com/landmark.html It is predictable that many participants in self-growth programs will attribute their sense of improvement to the programs they've taken, but much of their reasoning may be post hoc. Furthermore, their sense of improvement might not be matched by improved behavior. Just because they feel they've benefited doesn't mean they have. Research has shown that the feelings of having benefited greatly from participation in an LGAT do not correspond to beneficial changes in behavior (Michael Langone, "Large Group Awareness Training Programs," Cult Observer, v. 15, n. 1, 1998).
Here are some of the positive assertions: An overview of the independent studies: http://www.landmarkeducation.com/menu.jsp?top=25&mid=264&bottom=700
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=116&siteObjectID=150 Among the results reported by participants: One-third experienced a significant increase (of 25% or more) in their incomes after completing The Landmark Forum. Of that group, 94% said The Landmark Forum directly contributed to the increase. Seven out of 10 people said they worried less about money and became more effective in managing their finances after completing Landmark's programs. Participants found they were working fewer hours, suggesting they achieved greater balance in their lives.
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=116&siteObjectID=157 Conclusion The set of interventions in the organization produced impressive measurable results: • Safety performance improved 50% • Key benchmark costs were reduced 15-20% • Return on capital increased by 50% • Raw steel produced per employee rose 20%
Here is the one from the International Society for Performance Improvement (not on LE's web site): http://www.ispi.org/services/gotResults/2005/Landmark_Education_GotResults.pdf
Here is some quantitative data on the number of people who assist at LE per year (11,900):
http://www.ilovepossibility.info/leap.htm
LE's POV on the Assisting Program: http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=22&mid=175&bottom=239&siteObjectID=243
The French stuff is critical (where the voluntary assisting program was judged illegal by the French labor ministry). I don't have a reference for that, and it is probably in French.
(which should be separated into all the points and testimony so rendered),
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/Fowler.pdf In my opinoion, "brain washing", "mind control" or "thought reform" are very dubious concepts. There is little evidence to support that they ever take place except in situations in which extreme coercive pressure is put on a vulnerable person in circumstances of isolation, deprivation, and mistreatment such as a prisoner of war situation. The relatively brief encounters in a pleasant environment that characterize the Landmark Forum program could never effect such extreme and unwanted changes in personality and behaviour as those attributed to the various forms of "mind control".
In my opinion, the Landmark Forum does not place individuals at risk of any form of "mind control" "brainwashing" or "through control."
In my opinion, the Landmark Forum is not a cult or anything like a cult, and I do not see how any reasonable person could say that it is.
Raymond D. Fowler, Ph.D. November 30, 1999 (Past President of the American Psychological Association, speaking on his own behalf)
I thought I'd be brainwashed. But how wrong could I be... http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1106927,00.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark43.html Kamin [Landmark Education's Director of Media Relations] goes on to explain: "People don't understand what our programs are. Our programs make a difference, they're powerful. When somebody goes to something that lasts a weekend and they come back saying, 'Wow, this really made a difference in my life,' they are going to be met with a certain amount of skepticism. So somebody who is ill-informed and hasn't done their research will go, 'That must be X, Y or Z.' I think it's pretty obvious why those things happen."
http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html For me, it's almost impossible to observe The Forum's methods without the word "brainwashing" flashing across my intellectual radar screen every 15 seconds or so. Landmark refers inquiries in this department to a letter by Forum graduate Edward Lowell, a New Jersey psychiatrist who states in no uncertain terms that Landmark does not use brainwashing techniques.
There are more such articles on Rick Ross' web site that assert "thought reform" and "mind control" and "brainwashing." Martin Lell also made that assertion in his book (The Landmark Forum: Protocoll of a Brainwashing) to which Art Schreiber gave his rebuttal.
A handful of customers of Landmark Education have publicly alleged that their experience of Landmark has led to mental illness. (See Das Forum: Protokoll einer Gehirnwäsche: Der Psycho-Konzern Landmark Education [The Forum: Account of a Brainwashing: The Psycho-Outfit Landmark Education] by Martin Lell, Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, Munich, 1997, ISBN 3423360216 - a work which Landmark Education attempted to have suppressed at its first publication).
Rebuttal: This rebuttal has two parts: 1) Mr. Lell in specific (parts "a" and "b" below [1] quoted from Art Schreiber, general counsel of Landmark Education) and 2) the assertion of causality in general. (a) Landmark Education did not bring legal action to stop the publication of the book. Rather, Landmark Education's action for injunction was to eliminate the use of the word "brainwashing" in the sub-title of the book since such statement was totally false and defamatory. At the Hearing, the Court decided that the term "brainwashing" was a matter of opinion, which I consider to be a highly questionable result. The Court therefore denied Landmark's request for an injunction and the book was allowed to be published with the full sub-title. Landmark Education never intended to stop the publication of the contents of the book. (b) Mr. Lell was not "brainwashed". As the record at the Hearing indicated, following completion of The Landmark Forum Mr. Lell did not see a doctor; was not hospitalized; did not seek or obtain medication; and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem. In fact, Mr. Lell did not even say he was brainwashed; apparently his parents, after his speaking with them following The Landmark Forum, stated they thought "he sounded like someone who was brainwashed". Given Mr. Lell was not in fact brainwashed, Landmark Education brought its action to seek the injunction against the use of such word in the sub-title of the book.
here's a draft:
After taking the Landmark Forum, one customer, Martin Lell, wrote a book titled Das Forum: Protokoll einer Gehirnwäsche: Der Psycho-Konzern Landmark Education [The Forum: Account of a Brainwashing: The Psycho-Outfit Landmark Education], Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, Munich, 1997, ISBN 3423360216. Landmark sued to have the word "brainwashing" removed from the sub-title. During the hearing, Lell stated that following completion of The Landmark Forum, he did not see a doctor, was not hospitalized, did not seek or obtain medication, and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem. The court decided that "brainwashing" was a matter of opinion and allowed the sub-title to remain.
Traci Hukill, a reporter for Metroactive, participated in the Landmark Forum and wrote [1]
For me, it's almost impossible to observe The Forum's methods without the word "brainwashing" flashing across my intellectual radar screen every 15 seconds or so. Landmark refers inquiries in this department to a letter by Forum graduate Edward Lowell, a New Jersey psychiatrist who states in no uncertain terms that Landmark does not use brainwashing techniques.
Raymond Fowler, a psychologist, was requested by Landmark Education to evaluate the effectiveness, safety, and appropriateness of the procedures in the Landmark Forum in 1999. Fowler reported [2]
I saw nothing in the Landmark Forum I attended to suggest that it would be harmful to any participant. ... the Landmark Forum is nothing like psychotherapy ... has none of the characteristics typical of a cult ... does not place individuals at risk of any form of “mind control” “brainwashing” or “thought control.”
thoughts? FuelWagon 18:21, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, actually, there were some other pieces already existing in the current "brainwashing" section, so I attempted to roll the changes into the actual article alongside the stuff that was already there. FuelWagon 18:31, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Fowler was the head of the APA while offering a personal report on a form of training that had been previously investigated by the APA. He offered no evidence of anything he said, did not disclose whether he was paid for his endorsement and did not mention the concerns of other academics. His report reads like a sycophantic, paid for endorsement rather than anything scientific. Dr John Hunter explains Lifton's criteria for thought reform in detail and then, in detail, explains how every condition is employed in the Landmark Forum. Rather than outsourcing one's thinking to a dubious endorsement by an authority figure (who has no expertise in thought reform), it seems that one should compare the explicit conditions of thought reform as stated by Lifton to the conditions of the Landmark Forum. Jagter80 ( talk) 11:13, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=658
What is Landmark Education's relationship with Werner Erhard? For 15 years, Landmark Education has developed leading edge programs in the area of personal training & development, and Landmark's programs are based on research and ideas originally developed by Werner Erhard. Landmark respects and appreciates the enormous contribution of Mr. Erhard's ideas. Mr. Erhard has no financial interest, ownership, or management role in Landmark Education.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark79.html Kamin says that Erhard has nothing to do with the organisation now and that his "technology" has been developed and modified by Landmark staff. Kamin denies that Erhard receives any income from Landmark, but he confirms that Erhard's younger brother Harry is Landmark's CEO.
Here is the only sourced assertion I know of asserting otherwise: http://www.wernererhard.com/wernererhardtimemagazine.htm Landmark critic Walter Plywaski, a Colorado electronics engineer who took on the company after his daughter ran up a $3,000 tab on courses, thinks Erhard is still pulling the strings. Says he: "Erhard is like the Cheshire Cat. He has gone away, but the smile is there, hanging over everything."
(There are no tests one could perform to determine whether the smile of a Cheshire Cat is hanging over everything, but people at LE do smile a lot. :) )
Yes, I think you could add the date next to each. The Time article is from 1997 or 1998.
Whether Erhard is considered a direct influence today or not, he as well as EST should be included in the article (or at least a link should be included in the bottom of the article) because, after all, Landmark is an offshoot of EST.
Not to mention that this article seems more like a "coverup" of the various negative aspects of EST/Landmark by its followers. I think a little more effort could be taken to neutralize this article. If you have to counter the negative arguments, then the "positive" arguments ought to be countered as well.
Or, in another interpretation, the negative arguments are, for the most part, spin and spending even as much print space as we have hopelessly skews the article to the negative.
On Werner: There is no cover-up about this either. I can remeber a time in Landamrk where people were unsure of talking about Werner and were unsure of how to reference it so as a matter of practical policy he was not brought up. This ended up causing confusion amongst those people who never met the guy and knew nothing about him. That time is over- Werner is now openly talked about. Harry, his brother, will even mention conversations he had with him and on occassion Werner will visit Landamrk leader trainings. It is a normal, friendly relationship consistent with the fact that he founded a lot of the distinctions the current technology of Landamrk is based on.
I have no idea what the fiscal relationship is between Werner and LE but I know it is none of our business and there is no conspiracy about it either. Do you know the cleaner down the street's fiscal relationship with his brother who founded the clenaing shop twenty years ago? No? Oh my god- it must be a conspiracy!!
Sorry for the sarcasm- I think all this stuff about Werner is much ado about nothing. The only problem is he was a dramatic figure who was in the news a lot and a lot of things were said about him. Some of those things turned out to be baseless- like the tax fraud accusations and the abusing his daughters things (although I agree with whoever said that there is something wrong in a family when people are even willing to be coerced by money or fame to make accusations like that!). Some turned out to be true (he did leave his wife and run away from his family to California with another woman, he did make good money for the licenses on the WE&A technology). Some are still unresolved: I have no idea if Scientology really has a "black list" and put him on it (although what happened to him around 1990 has all the earmarks of a smear campaign).
Overall- just another human being. Not the messiah, not a cult leader, just a really smart, flawed guy who was committed to something and really started something interesting, powerful, and wih a potential to make a big difference in the world, yet still racked by the flaws, concerns , and issues all human institutions are saddled with. I think we can safely slack off on the drama about it.
- Alex Jackl 15:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
This is another area of controversy about LE. Here is part of LE's POV:
An eight-page article in the March 2001 edition of the journal Contemporary Philosophy hosted at the University of Colorado at Boulder and co-authored by Professor Steven McCarl and by Landmark Education Business Development CEO Steve Zaffron discusses philosophy and the Landmark Forum under the title "The Promise of Philosophy and the Landmark Forum". (Readers interested in a detailed discussion from Landmark Education's point of view can read this article - one of the few written articles discussing course content of Landmark Education (aside from the course syllabus - one of Landmark Education's marketing documents.)
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=654 Educational Methodology Landmark Education's methodology and the results it has produced make Landmark a leader and innovator in the field of training and development. Landmark's technology is drawn from a rich tradition of thinking and research that spans a number of disciplines, from philosophy to linguistics to Zen. Based on a methodology and ideas originally developed by Werner Erhard, Landmark has evolved its unique educational methodology through years of continuous research and development.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4819050-102285,00.html Over the next three days, we are educated in a mix of philosophies, psychology and religious theories, illustrated by readings from books, plays and one detailed description of the entire plot of Citizen Kane. Including the ending. The theories expounded cherry pick ideas from existential philosophy and motivational psychology. They take in aspects of Maxwell Maltz's psycho-cybernetics, Zen Buddhism, Alan Watts and Freud. Shadows of Abraham Maslow, Hinduism, Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale and P.T. Barnum flit over the proceedings.
Adverse POV: (Heidegger for Fun and Profit, 1990) http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/gottlieb.htm One main idea behind the Forum is a thesis that is often thought to be Heidegger's, though it in fact owes more to his pupil, Hans-Georg Gadamer. Mr. Gadamer's idea is that people derive their identities from stories they tell about themselves. The Forum's aim is to expose these stories by inducing existentialist anxiety, and then to enable people to construct more empowering stories, which transform them. Sounds easy. It certainly empowers Forum adepts to adopt a great deal of jargon and go off in search of more people to transform. ... Those who take the Forum phenomenon seriously might see it as an attempt to overthrow the democracy of reason: you cannot debate the Forum, you just start talking its language or you don't. It is replete with the ironies of most minor cults: to open up the possibilities in your own life, you have to be intellectually bombarded by somebody else; to free yourself from the categories of everyday language, you have to be imprisoned in a new jargon that few other people speak.
I think all the sourced information for and against is now in the article (or at least a majority of it is.) so I did a reorganization of the article to re-interleave the various POV's by topic. So now, a topic like "results" will contain critical views about results as well as favorable views. I think this reads better. FuelWagon 20:10, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Pedant17,
User FuelWagon is an administrator and has been working with us on eliminating unsourced claims, and where controversy exists, sourcing the various PRO/CON and other claims to exactly who said them.
Several facets of your most recent edit (by differencing against the previous version) are in direct violation of this:
1) This article provides detailed discussion - from Landmark Education's point of view - one of the few written articles which takes the course content of Landmark Education seriously ... [This is completely unsourced.]
2) The statement about Singer being financially exhausted. LE never pursued the case to a financial judgement; she retracted at the time of the deposition. [This is completely unsourced.]
3) Other horror-tales... [Google Groups are not valid sources for Wikipedia.]
4) The ApologeticsIndex was under the theme "religion" and we were focusing solely on evidence pertaining to religion in that section. [This is vandalistic structural destruction.]
5) The "Sources" section content you introduced most likely will have to go under the Wiki article for "est" and it will have to be attributed there.
6) The claims regarding hypnotism and the remarks thereunder are completely unsourced.
7) The notation that LE "responds to allegations ... by tangentially asserting that many clergy have attended the Landmark Forum". All of the content in that section is directly sourced and was completely within NPOV guidelines. With Father Banaga, for example, you can even go to Adamson University and see that he is, in fact, the President of Adamson University.
8) The conversion of "Management" to "Prominent Landmarkers" borders on vandalism.
You have done several such large "bad faith" edits in the past: A) 11:37, 12 October 2005 Pedant17 B) 12:28, 21 September 2005 Pedant17 C) 11:53, 3 September 2005 Pedant17 D) 09:37, 2 August 2005 Pedant17
We are trying to source all claims at this point and write the PRO and CON attributing the statement to who actually said it, which must be referenced (journal article, LE statement, LE web site, court case, case study), not a Google group. The remedy for unreferenced claims is to move them to the Talk page or strike them. The large edits that you do that manifest the infractions indicated above will be reverted outright. While I am a supporter of LE, I went out and found the adverse statements and sourced them. FuelWagon (a Wikipedia administrator or respected participant) wrote the actual text that was reintroduced into the article. Some of your edit I agree with and there are still unsourced statements in the article and we will remove them. There are statements favorable to LE that are unsourced that we will either source or remove. There is analogous adverse commentary that we will also remove where it is unsourced. What you did tonight and have done numerous times in the past is intolerable and will be reverted outright. Sm1969 06:18, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
The detection of vandalism came when you suddenly rearranged a section that was completely within NPOV.
The accusation of bad faith came from a notion in contract law that you knew what you were doing was in violation of NPOV.
Here is my background in specific: 1) I have done just about every LE program available since 1993; 2) I have assisted a lot over the years (but not a lot currently in the center); 3) I agree with some of the criticism to various degrees and it definitely needs to be included; 4) My educational background also includes an MBA in Marketing/Information Systems design, which includes a survey of law courses (tort law, contract law, tax law, etc.) [I will use the tort law stuff to address your point #2], 5) as well as a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering/Computer Science and Linguistics, specifically German; I read and write German fluently, and I have read much of the German documents and provided corrections/refutations to your posts in the past regarding the Berlin Senate report. From German, I can take good guesses at Dutch, Danish and Swedish, particularly when assisted with the automated translators on the Internet. DaveApter and I have asked for your background re LE a few times now so that we have a common frame of reference as to what constitutes evidence and how conclusions are being drawn. I reside in California. With that in mind:
Here is a diff of the edit you made which I assert broke NPOV: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Landmark_Education&diff=28797825&oldid=28697908
AFTER PEDANT17's EDIT Landmark Education sued Margaret Singer, a UC Berkeley professor and author of Cults in Our Midst (published in 1995) for defamation. Singer mentioned Landmark Education in her book but did not make it clear if she labelled Landmark Education as a cult or not. Following the litigation, a financially-exhausted Singer posted a retraction stating that she did not intend to call Landmark a cult, and that nor did she consider it a cult. [6]
BEFORE PEDANT17's EDIT Landmark Education sued Margaret Singer, a UC Berkeley professor and author of Cults in Our Midst (published in 1995) for defamation. Singer mentioned Landmark Education in her book but wasn't clear if she was calling Landmark Education a cult or not. Singer posted a retraction stating that she did not intend to call Landmark a cult nor did she consider it a cult. [22]
You made a really small change adding "financially-exhausted Singer" implying that her motive for retracting was that she did not have the money to defend herself. There are numerous articles that I can refer to in the press that imply Landmark Education, as this big, bad organization goes around quashing criticism with the threat of lawsuits. It's quite stereotypical to think, "A big corporation is using its money to step on the little guy." The reality is quite simple: She, as a UC Berkeley Professor and recognized expert (in academia) in the field of cults could have easily gotten pro bono legal representation IF her position were defensible. What is not in this Wikipedia article right now is a prior case Landmark Education filed in 1994 (I think) against SELF Magazine (Conde Nast Publications) in which Landmark Education established through a defamation lawsuit against SELF that the use of the word "cult" is A) a question of fact that can be proven TRUE or FALSE (a question of triable fact) and B) derogatory. She would have faced the jury which would have decided the question and her reputation would have been shattered.
The Margaret Singer retraction was a ***HUGE*** deal to Landmark Education. Without that, anyone in the press or in books could have called Landmark Education a cult. That was the DEATH PENALTY to the use of the written word "cult" in written publications (the Internet excepted, in certain situations) and the DEATH PENALTY to spoken word "Cult" (the tort of slander) in the United States. Go back and read the Margaret Singer retraction in that context. http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/msing.pdf
REQUEST-4: Do you agree that newsgroups in particular and Usenet is specific is barred for this very reason? This is a yes/no question, but feel free to add a textual explanation.
REQUEST-5: If you do the "bold" editing, it should not break NPOV. Things that are sourced must remain. Things that are not sourced must be brought to the Talk page and those with opposing views time to find sources to substantiate. The word "bold" can all too easily break NPOV.
Hi Pedant17
I don't know what to make of your contributions to this article. You repeatedly claim to be trying to restore a NPOV, but all your edits are written from an extreme anti-Landmark POV. Much of what you write is simply your own opinion and has no place in an encyclopedia. Much else is other unauthorative unsourced opinion. How recently have you reviewed the NPOV policy to see what it actually says? Also the policies relating to 'Citation of Sources' and 'Words to Avoid'? DaveApter 11:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Just to clarify one thing, I'm not an admin. I happen to be extremely familiar with NPOV policy and highly controversial wikipedia articles. I haven't combed through the edit by Pendant, but it contained some minor tweaks that I would agree with, as well as containing some major rewrites that I would say breaks NPOV. The minor tweaks were some rare insertions of attribution, such that a sentence would be changed from "The Forum provides blah" to "Landmark Education states that the Forum provides blah." For the most part, it seemed clear to me that it was Landmark Education that was the source, but I don't have a problem with making the reference more direct.
Ok, it was originally the edits, especially those of Pedant17, that, I believe, had DaveApter go looking for outside assistance. Sometimes Pedant17 adds things which are consistent with NPOV, but very frequently, as in the edits I referred to, they are A) unsourced, B) his personal opinions (and, yes, others do hold those opinions as well, but that is not the point), C) twisting of statements that are, in fact, sourced.
We still have many more controversial points to add about LE. The stuff that we put in the archive is all stuff people (journalists mostly) have written about LE (both pro/con), so we will have to source it and get it in there. I thinking about this, I think the final article structure should evolve to something that reflects two major controversies: 1) What is it (education or something else, a long list of items to consider) and 2) what does it cause (favorable results per the studies, nothing per certain criticism or "psychological damage" as has also been asserted in rare cases). Sm1969 16:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
So, I read the heidigger for fun and profit article, and I'm not sure how relevant it is. Most of the article is criticizing heidigger for being a nazi and completely un-understandable. The tail end mentions some folks who used Heidigger to get rich, the last couple paragraphs talk about how Werner Erhardt used Heidigger to create EST, and how it is completely un-understandable. The last paragraph or so then says that EST became the forum in 1990. Generally, I don't like articles that go out of their way to satisfy Godwin's law, and whether Heidigger was a nazi or not seems quite irrelevant to whether or not Landmark is good or bad. It seems to be a wildly loose application of "guilt by someone else's association". Landmark came from Est, est came from heidigger, heidigger was a nazi, tehrefore landmark is a nazi, or at least very bad. I'm not sure how to include this in the article without introducing a wildly biased view. thoughts? FuelWagon 15:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added a short paragraph to the section under cult, brainwashing, etc, since that seems to be the closest section to talk about content. thoughts? FuelWagon 20:52, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the article is in pretty good shape as far as making sure all claims and criticisms are sourced. I was thinking that maybe we could review the requirements for qualifying for Featured Article status, make sure the article meets those requirements, and then when we think it is ready, nominate the article for Featured Article status. When the Terri Schiavo article was nominated, they wanted all the URL's in footnote format. I'm not sure if that's a hard requirement or not, but it's one thing to look into. I think the content is in good shape, we just may need to do some formatting stuff, and then it would be ready for nomination. Any thoughts? Anyone more familiar with Featured Article requirements? FuelWagon 18:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I think there is a lot more content to go and adding of some pictures before we go for Featured Article status. There is still much controversy from the old archives that we did not put into the current article. We need to go back and source the claims. For content, I would also like to add quantitative participation data and revenue data over time, which we have a available. Numerous pictures could be added. Sm1969 22:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
How do we add tables to an article?
I would like to add tables for the following:
A) annual revenue and cumulative participation data points B) customer lawsuits (3) (party, issue, resolution) C) outbound lawsuits and retractions
maybe also: D) levels of causality (from highest to lowest) 1) scientific study (rigourously monitored, placebo controlled, double-blind clinical trials) 2) case studies 3) jury findings 4) surveys (non-causal) 5) journalist articles
We don't yet have a lot of raw data, but we can add probably about five "cumulative participation data points" and "five revenue data points." What these numbers point out, more than anything else, is that the company is growing, despite all its critics.
I would like to have the lawsuits occur in some sort of context, since you would not report lawsuits for the average company. With 850,000 cumulative participants, the rate of KNOWN lawsuits for course operations is 1 in every 425,000. (There may be more we don't know about, but I think not since I have done a lot of reading.) (The sexual harrassment lawsuit was not related to the course itself.)
A few pictures I would add: one of the Landmark Forum from the press kit: 1) http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=659&bottom=1787
2) Sister Iris Clarke as a participant in Landmark Education's Assisting Program http://www.ilovepossibility.info/image/landmark_manila/10710.jpg
(We have not yet covered the Assisting Program as a point of controversy.)
3) A GIF graph of the participation data points that we have. Sm1969 16:35, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, on second thought, I'm not sure I would include participation data points under the Rosenberg quote, but they might well go at the top under the factual section. LE continually releases these into the press. There are two URLs, one for LE's customers in general and one for the Landmark Forum. The general customer counts include (my assumption) participation in the business seminars through LEBD (Landmark Educaiton Business Development).
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/menu.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124 (More than 800,000 have taken the Landmark Forum.) http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=654&bottom=665 (To date, over 850,000 people have participated in Landmark's programs.)
Also, we do have a quote about participation in the SELP: Landmark Education designed the Self Expression and Leadership Program, where participants are empowered to provide leadership in their communities and to create projects that make a difference. To date, over 30,000 community projects have been created from participants in this course. (Same page as last URL.)
Here is the quote: It is inaccurate to state that former Forum participants pressed charges against Landmark Education because of psychological consequences they suffered from The Landmark Forum. Out of more than 350,000 people who have participated in The Landmark Forum around the world, there has been only 1 person who filed a lawsuit. While the article describes the claims in that lawsuit, the writer failed to inform your readers that there was a trial in that lawsuit and after reviewing all of the evidence, the United States District Court rejected Mrs. Ney's claims and ruled that The Forum did not cause her emotional problems. The Court issued its decision in favor of Landmark Education and The Forum and such decision was upheld by the United States Court of Appeals..
I have requested permission to use the picture from LE. I await their response. Sm1969 00:36, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
What criteria are there for including "links" in the "links" section at the bottom of the article? Some links are to sites that have defamatory and discredited allegations. Others are to personal web sites. Can any of these be struck?
I believe this is correct, but it was a default judgement because Werner did not appear. When there was a trial, the courts found no physical causality to the program in which she participated (which is the relevant issue for the LE article). You can move this to the Werner Erhard page though and mark it as a default judgement for failure to appear. (On the contrary, in the Stephanie Ney case the court ordered Werner Erhard to pay more that $500,000 in damages for "mental injuries" (Pressman, 1993: 262).)
This article is so clearly NPOV, with a large portion having been written and/or conveniently edited by someone who is clearly affiliated with Landmark. A lot of it sounds more like an advertisement or justification than an encyclopedia worthy entry
What specifically are you objecting to? Much of what is here today went through an process of getting outside assistance from someone with no affiliation with LE and a very large section of it has now been sourced. NPOV is, perhaps, not what you think it is. NPOV, per the Wikipedia definition, is citing all sources of significant opinion and attributing them. We have sourced Landmark Education's opinion and the opposing opinions in many instances. If you can find better articulations of the opposing opinions, so long as they have a certain level of frequency, you should update them (with referenceable sources). Sm1969 10:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I looked at this, too, and decided against including it. The reason to include it is that it is an opposing point of view, both within NPOV guideliness and substantiated. However, if you followed the full Been versus Weed cross defedent Landmark Education case, you will see that Weed's own lawyer (Dr. Grundy) at the sanity hearing testified that the cause was a mental defect (not Landmark Education or the Landmark Advanced Course). Thus, at a civil trial, Weed would have his own lawyer's testimony from the sanity hearing be used against him. The fact that his own laywer and that of the US government would be used against Weed, along with zero instances of 250,000+ customers of the Advanced Course having similar instances make this a theory of such little import that it does not belong in an encyclopedia. If Weed's civil case attorney (Gaylon Hayes) were willing to take the case on contingency, he would simply move ahead. Landmark could always force depositions from around the world--the court would force a trial if it thought it necessary.
In Dr. Grundy's opinion, Weed's brief psychotic disorder was caused by a mental defect. The exact nature of the defect, however, is unknown. (Id. at 29, 32) Dr. Grundy testified that none of the tests he relied upon could predict whether Weed will experience another onset of symptoms. (Id. at 35) He also testified that, according to the DSM-IV, recurrence of a brief psychotic disorder is rare.
In this newspaper article, the lawyer for the letter carrier's family says that he withdrew the case (in June 2005) because he plans to refile no more than a year later, adding that Landmark was forcing him to depose witnesses from around the world.
If Gaylon Hayes does, in fact, refile, then I would add that as pending litigation.
Ok, here we go again. Some of the stuff you put in is probably legitimate.
1) I think the sections you marked "need references" are generally, truly in need of references. There I agree with you.
2) You appear to be sourcing most items now which is really good.
3) Sourcing is just the beginning.
As a matter of policy, Wikipedia distinguishes three levels (I'll have to find a URL to the official policy page): A) Majority opinions B) Minority, but significant opinions C) Insignificant opinions, which do not belong in an encyclopedia.
The operative tests mainly involve 1) testability in some sense and 2) the ease of finding prominent supporters. Your edits are so large I can't stand editing them in one shot. I recently obtained the Pressman book from some wholesaler. It was purchased from the Ramsey County library (wherever that is) by the wholesaler and then sold to me by Amazon. The book undoubtedly had a very low number of copies printed, even with such an inflammatory title.
Then you look at the sources. Again, stuff regarding est belongs on the "est" page.
Trying to pin two courses on Scientology that Werner did pre-1970 is an insignificant opinion, I assert, for you probably would have grave difficulty finding say three items distinctly and derivationally unique to Scientology and Landmark Education.
Make small edits and we'll discuss on a case by case basis regarding their frequency, testability and sourcing. Sm1969
However, in the Stephanie Ney case the court did order Werner Erhard (in absentia) in a default judgement to pay more that $500,000 in damages for "mental injuries" (Pressman, 1993: 262).)
Again, had Werner Erhard contested this, he would have won. Even your Pressman book notes this. Instead, Werner left the country. You can certainly put this on the Werner Erhard page, but even there you should not that the jury finding of fact was against the "intentional infliction of emotional distress" (the legal tort for mental injuries).
This also pre-dates Landmark. You can put it on the Werner Erhard web page, but the term "cult" has been found to be "subject to concrete meaning in the field of psychology and, as such, is a triable question of fact, capable of being proven true or false." The 1989 source does not mention Landmark Education because it pre-dates LE. Sm1969 15:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Eileen Barker, emeritus sociologist of religion at the London School of Economic, makes a relevant point on the popular versus the technical conception of what might constitute a cult. Discussing Landmark Education's est predecessor and writing just before the transition to Landmark Education, she mentions "... movements which do not fall under the definition of religion used by the Institute [for the study of American Religion], but which are sometimes called 'cults'. Examples would be est, Primal Therapy or Rebirthing." (Barker, 1989: 149)
I am moving to disqualify both of these sources. Neither one is obtainable--neither the Lell book nor the Samways book--either from the publisher or the aftermarket. I looked on the web site of Deutscher Taschenbuchverlag and could not even find Lell, his book or the ISBN number. The is the same for Samways. You (Pedant) have intentionally qouted things out of context before. Samways further states that she has not done the Landmark Forum.
Erhard writes the foreword to Luke Rhinehart's book "The book of est". He praises Rhinehart and says he loved the book and supports Rhinehart totally. In the book, Rhinehart explicitly states that Erhard immersed himself in Scientology before forming est. Case closed. Jagter80 ( talk) 11:18, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
Test Jagter80 ( talk) 11:20, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
As noted in the hearing, Martin Lell himself did not say that he was brainwashed (or take any actions such as seeking help). For this "expert" to then say that (and conveniently omit that he contradicts himself about brainwashing) makes this an insignficant opinion. Sm1969 15:47, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
In the introduction to Lell's book, the writer and Diplompsychologin Bärbel Schwertfeger states:
(a) Landmark Education did not bring legal action to stop the publication of the book. Rather, Landmark Education's action for injunction was to eliminate the use of the word "brainwashing" in the sub-title of the book since such statement was totally false and defamatory. At the Hearing, the Court decided that the term "brainwashing" was a matter of opinion, which I consider to be a highly questionable result. The Court therefore denied Landmark's request for an injunction and the book was allowed to be published with the full sub-title. Landmark Education never intended to stop the publication of the contents of the book.
(1) Mr. Lell was not "brainwashed". As the record at the Hearing indicated, following completion of The Landmark Forum Mr. Lell did not see a doctor; was not hospitalized; did not seek or obtain medication; and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem. In fact, Mr. Lell did not even say he was brainwashed; apparently his parents, after his speaking with them following The Landmark Forum, stated they thought "he sounded like someone who was brainwashed". Given Mr. Lell was not in fact brainwashed, Landmark Education brought its action to seek the injunction against the use of such word in the sub-title of the book.
(c) In an interview on June 15, 1997 on SWF TV in Germany, Mr. Lell stated that Landmark Education and The Landmark Forum were not a sect or psycho-group and Landmark Education has no connection to Scientology. Sm1969 09:53, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
- Pedant17 01:25, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/misc/Factnet/SINGER.TXT
Her [Margaret Singer's] credentials, however, have been discredited by her own profession: The American Psychological Association found her work to lack scientific merit. Several courts have forbidden Singer to testify as an "expert witness" because, as one court stated, "her coercive persuasion theory did not represent a meaningful scientific concept." United States vs Steven Fishman. The APA formally dismissed Singer's ideas in the 1980s after she and her AFF associates had formed a task force within the APA on "deceptive and indirect methods of persuasion and control". This task force submitted its report to the Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology of the APA. The task force's report was rejected by the Board in May of 1987. The APA stated that "In general, the report lacks the scientific rigor and evenhanded critical approach needed for APA imprimatur." The APA Board, which consulted two independent experts in arriving at their conclusion, warned the task force members not to imply that the APA in any way supported the positions they had put forward. Singer is an advisory board member of Cult Awareness Network (CAN) and American Family Foundation (AFF), both of which rely on her theories to cover their attacks on new religions with a veneer of "science." But the overwhelming majority of experts and scholars have also found Singer's "brainwashing" ideas to be wholly unscientific. They share the view of Professor Harvey Cox, Professor of Divinity at Harvard University, that "The term 'brainwashing' has no respectable standing in scientific or psychiatric circles, and is used almost entirely to describe a process by which somebody has arrived at convictions that I do not agree with." (John T. Biermans: The Odyssey of New Religions Today). Prior to its rejection of Singer's report, the APA had already endorsed a position contrary to Singer's "coercive persuasion" theory in an amicus brief before the California Supreme Court in Molko v. Holy Spirit Association (the Unification Church).
This is what I am striking because we now have two data points: 1) Singer's retraction, 2) Singer's repudiation by her own profession and 3) Landmark Education's settling for no money. Clearly, Landmark just wanted to prove a point. Her position is of such a minority that it does not belong in an encyclopedia.
Scioscia (2000) reports:
word. I'll probably need to post the Rick Ross court documents which have an extensive discussion on "cult."
says: "don't say "X is a cult", say "so and so has called X a 'cult' because...". - Pedant17 04:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Investigations into the background in which Landmark Education originated have documented links at that stage to Scientology (Pressman, 1993: 25-31).
Even here, most of the 25-31 is about Hubbard and Erhard. Can you name three practices from Scientology that are adopted from Scientology into Landmark Education anywhere that are unique to Scientology? That's why I assert this is a rare opinion, not worthy of an encyclopedia. Sm1969 16:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I took this out, because, though referenced, Rick Ross fails to post Landmark Education's response to the complaint, even though he has access to it. David Grill was not prosecuted for any crime and if he were, Rick Ross surely would have included the prosecution's statements and convictions. "with a foreign object and anally." (text of complaint)
Your point that "with a foreign object and anally" is inflammatory is fair enough. However, I replace the link to the complaint. While I do not know all of Landmark's responses were to the complaint, I do know one, and it is spelled out in the article: Landmark settled. Sm1969 07:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC) There can be many reasons for settling, all of which center on return on investment, i.e., that LE does not want to take the expense (or risk of a trial).
I don't see why a lack of criminal prosecution is a persuasive reason to take down the link. The Dallas County District Attorney can have many reasons for not prosecuting a crime - only one of which is that the crime did not happen.
On the other hand, Tracy Neff and her lawyer both subjected themseleves to possible civil liability if this complaint were untrue.
Moreover, her lawyer subjected herself to disbarment and loss of her livelihood if the complaint were untrue. See malicious prosecution. These facts, and the fact that Landmark settled instead of fought the complaint are strong indicators of reliability. This warrants placing a link to the complaint.
Moreover, there is no harm to the neutrality of the article in placing a link. The text of the article remains completely neutral. The text states Neff alleged sexual assault, and that Landmark settled. This is undeniably true. Those who follow the link know that they are leaving a neutral encyclopedia and going to a primary source from a non-netural party. They are free to weigh the credibility of that source, using their own judgment. Requiring a link to a specific response by Landmark when none is available needlessy denies readers access to relevant information. More importantly, it insults their intelligence.
I will, however, search for a specific response and post it if found.
I revised the entry to make it clear what is being quoted. The quotes are accurate, and in context.
This is not inflammatory in that it accurately reflects the complaint. The purpose here is to reflect complaints against Landmark.
The fact that the alleged circumstances were, as the plaintiff herself indicates, outrageous is not a reason to shield the public from the fact that Landmark was sued for its alleged negligence leading to this allegedly outrageous result.
DaveApter 10:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This is a rather obscure bit of research. It is substantiated, but probably not meeting the thresshold requirements of NPOV (rare opinions that are of such insignificance that they do not belong in an encyclopedia). For now, the only part I will redact is the conclusion (which is definitely original research) that some critics use the web site registrations to question the relationship between LE and Werner Erhard. I may redact more later on the grounds above.
The current description of the Rick Ross suit only tells Landmark's side of the story. Also, it contains too much trivial information. It tells us when Landmark moved to dismiss its suit and also when that motion succeeded. Further, it has a lot of legal jargon. Therefore, I propose the following revision (with links to be inserted later). I welcome any suggestions for improving it before I post it.
"In June 2004, Landmark Education filed a $1 million lawsuit against the Rick A. Ross Institute, claiming that comments on an online bulletin board falsely disparaged Landmark Education. According to Landmark’s expert witness, forensic linguist Dr. Gerald McMenamin, Rick Ross authored many of the disparaging statements that were presented as anonymous third-party postings.
In December 2005, after a New Jersey court decided that online bulletin board operators cannot be liable for third-party postings (Donato v. Moldow), Landmark Education withdrew its suit against the Rick Ross Institute. Landmark Education claims it withdrew the suit because the Donato decision barred its suit. (Landmark Press Release)
Noting that the Donato decision only affected a small portion of its suit, Rick Ross claims Landmark Education withdrew the suit because it feared further discovery of its own records. Rick Ross claims that Landmark’s motivation for the suit was to discover the names of anonymous posters and then sue them. (Rick Ross Press Release)."
The article formerly stated a jury had found Landmark did not cause Ney's injuries. None of the cited references supports this. Moreover, the appeals court decision says the emotional injury claim was dismissed on summary judgment. Summary judgment means a judge dismissed a claim without giving it to the jury. Thus, not only is the article's former claim not supported by any authority, the appeals court decision is directly contrary.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~anco/mental/randr/robhow.htm
The article also formerly stated that the appeals court affirmed a finding that Landmark did not cause Ney's injuries. That is also misleading. Here is the appellate court's discussion of causation:
The only interpretation I can see that makes sense is that the court of appeals found (1) Ney had not shown Landmark's "professional negligence" had caused her injuries, but (2) her participation in the Forum "might have led in part" to her psychotic reaction. The previous language that the appeals court found the Landmark Forum as an absolute matter did not cause Ney's injuries is inconsistent with the court's own language.
I have not been able to verify the accuracy of Landmark's statement that the district court found no causation, but I have left that in.
Re: Neff
All I can find about the case is the Phoenix New Times article. We could use that source to add in something like "Neff's lawyer said the settlement compensated her for her injuries. Art Schreiber, general counsel for Landmark, says the settlement was not substantial." Would you be happy with this? Schreiber's comment that the award was not substantial is about as close as you can get to saying Landmark thought the suit was frivilous without actually saying it. Article
You said:
I agree that the jury never had to speak to anything. If you think what we know now is more favorable than when we started, I am happy for you.
You said:
I agree. As the quoted text from the court of appeals said, to paraphrase, the Forum may have caused in part her psychotic reaction.
You said:
Just about - except for the 4th Circuit saying the Forum might have caused a psychotic reaction. ODB
I struck the sentence on successor liabilty. In this part of the article, the only pertinent part of the case is whether Landmark caused a psychotic reaction. That is why the suit is included in this list. The successor liability is related only to the default judgment, which isn't otherwise discussed.
Successor liability is relevant to the Werner Erhard discussion. That part, quite rightly, talks about the successor liability aspect of the Ney case. There is no need to repeat it here. ODB
Time and again you have come back to this article and made the same or similar sets of widespread edits. Although claiming that your edits restore a NPOV, I would say that they consistently have a thrust and an intention of portraying Landmark in the worst possible light, often using subtly disparaging sentence constructions and drawing in questionable factual assertions and marginal opinions from many dubious sources.
One small example of your persistent attempts to compromise the neutrality of the article is your repeated re-naming of the section 'Generally Critical Opinions of Landmark Education' to 'Varied Opinions of Landmark Education'. Why would you want to do that, except to mislead readers into thinking that a set of references which are in fact consistently negative (and in most cases anonymous, ill-informed, unsourced, and/or deliberately malicious) might represent a broad spectrum of opinion?
Your edits are focussed on making the maximum exposure of every incident, rumour or opinion which casts Landmark in a bad light, and casting doubt on any statement which supports it. Although you claim to have made some sort of extented study of Landmark Education, you have repeatedly refused invitations on this discussion page to share the nature of your experiences, or declare your own opinions on the subject. You have never claimed to have actually taken any of Landmark's courses, and nothing you say suggests that you have any first-hand experience of them. Clearly you have read widely, but you show a strong disposition to take all negative sources at face value whilst holding instinctive reservations about anything supportive, however respected the source.
The impression that you seem to be keen for the article to convey is that there is serious doubt on the question of whether Landmark courses deliver useful results, and significant evidence that various forms of harm or exploitation occur. Both of these opinons are in fact held by some commentators, and it is therefore appropriate to report the fact. However the coverage already given to these minority views is vastly out of proportion to the number of people holding them, their credentials, and the quality of the research done to support them.
The opinion surveys that have been carried out conclude that well over 90% of participants report dramatic tangible improvements in their lives resulting from Landmark's courses and satisfaction with the content, the conduct and the value. I have no hesitation in taking these figures as genuine and representative because they concur entirely with my own subjective assessments of the response of customers to courses that I have taken, or attended as a guest, or assisted on. You however, want to insert qualifying phrases which cast doubt on the reliability of these surveys - but without giving any indication of what your own estimates might be, or what is your evidence for believing the surveys to be flawed.
In other words the opinions break down as follows: Out of around 850,000 customers, there are probably about 800,000 who are highly satisfied; on the other hand there are about half a dozen who have publicly and accountably gone on the record claiming to have been damaged in some way (and in none of those cases has the accusation been upheld). To add to that there perhaps are a few hundred dissatisfied customers complaining (usually anonymously) on internet message boards (quite frequently admitting, apparently with pride, that they did not do the course in full, or did not do the assignments, or did not keep the promises they made as a condition of their participation). Then there are a few hundred more who have not done any courses but turn out critical reviews based on hearsay, or on an adverse reaction to an acquaintance who did do one. And finally there are the "cult experts", none of whom have bothered to find out at first hand what actually goes on, but are quite happy to hand out their defamatory "expert opinions" on the basis of hearsay and speculation, or to give widespead publicity to selectively gathered slanderous allegations by others whilst hiding behind disclaimers.
Finally there is the extended coverage given to the Neff case above and in the article. Why is this relevant for inclusion at all? If any other company which had been in business for over 14 years, had had 850,000 customers, and had employed over 6,000 staff members over the years, had one single instance where a customer or employee had accused a manager of sexual assault (and one not even substantiated by a conviction), would that merit inclusion in an encyclopedia entry on the company? The only point of including it is if the accusation is being made that LE condones such behaviour, or at least is cavalier in respect of it. Is anyone seriously making any such sugggestion? DaveApter 13:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, and thanks for your contribution to the debate. BTW, have you read the NPOV policy carefully?
You say: I do not agree with you that it is a majority (or at the very least a significant majority) view that Landmark delivers the results it promises.
Sadly, most the information we have about Landmark comes either from Landmark itself...
...(including studies commissioned by Landmark)...
..., devoted Landmark followers,...
... "cult experts" and those with an axe to grind agaisnt Landmark.
I do think, though, that the aggregate of those anonymous webpages, cult experts, negative newspaper articles etc., do show that a significant portion of people view Landmark negatively. ---ODB
Does anybody know what the resolution of the Been v. Weed, Landmark case was? Rick ross has the complaint. The current article cites to a related criminal case. But nothing says how the suit against Landmark ended.
I assume from the testimony in the criminal case + the lack of anything on Rick Ross claiming a victory, that the case went nowhere for the plaintiffs. But I have no source.
Changes
I struck the reason why the United States had jurisdiction. I don't think it is of general interest.
I added "in a related criminal case," because the former language confusingly, at least to me, suggested the expert testified in the civil case.
I struck the part of the quote saying "very rare possibilities." It is a poor phrase that hurts the flow of the article. I also don't think it adds much. The quote is there to show that Landmark was ruled out, not that some "very rare possibilities" were the cause. That said, I would not object to reverting this phrase if someone feels strongly about it. -- ODB
The exchange appears above in the section entitled "Samways and Lell sources":
The fact that Schreiber states that Lell omitted to claim the term "brainwash" does NOT necessarily imply that no brainwashing took place. Schreiber gives here no definitive evidence of non-brainwashing - he merely asserts. - Pedant17 12:02, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
We can note decisions of US courts where appropriate, and of Lithuanian courts also, on an equal basis. - Pedant17 04:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please explain how a lack of positive assertion qualifies as strong evidence?
The argument appears to go like this:
The extended argument of this process appears to proceed something like this:
How would this pattern work in practice? Try this example:
Far from providing a stong argument, such a pattern of thought apparently gives almost no argument at all. Rather:
If a legal process failed to draw out of Lell a definitive statement that he had or had not suffered brainwahing, we have no quotable evidence from this source as to Lell's own opinion on the matter. Thus we have to fall back on other evidence, separate from Lell's (presumed) opinion.
In these circumstances, we could evaluate others' opinions:
- Pedant17 00:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
It is clear that your own point of view is that Landmark Education is in some way harmful and worthy of criticism ( although you have repeatedly declined invitations to indicate your own experiences and evidence leading to your adopting this view). You have made repeated attempts to have this point of view represented disproportionately in this Wikipedia article.
You have repeatedly introduced phrasings intended to cast doubt upon any statements or evidence which casts LE in any kind of positive light, while going to great lengths to include and emphasise references critical of it, however marginal or dubious they may be.
The case made by critics is that one or more of the following opinions applies to LE:
This is the slant that you are repeatedly trying to introduce into the article.
However, when we examine these claims in detail, they turn out to be totally unsubstantiated. For one thing, the actual number of cases where specific allegations of harm resulting from paritcipation in Landmark programs are on the record is infinitesimal as a proportion of number of customers. That is even assuming that the allegations are regarded as justified. But my second point is that wherever there has been any rigorous examination of the claim, it has not been proven.
The repeated references to 'brainwashing' and 'cult' are also dishonest and misleading. Some commentators have used these terms in a loose colloquial sense, and critics repeatedly attempt to confuse the loose casual usage with the specific factual use of the terms, which - if true - would be a very serious accusation.
As far as 'brainwashing' is concerned, it is not clear that it has any specific clear meaning except in a context where someone is being seriously maltreated while being held against their will, eg at a facility such as Guantanamo Bay or a Prison Camp. Clearly nothing like that applies to a Landmark Seminar.
As far as the 'cult' conversation is concerned, the word used in a meaningful sense implies that an organisation shows most of the following characteristics:
None of those apply to LE: There is no single leader, it is run by a board of directors who are elected annually by the shareholders, who are also the staff members; It has no specific beliefs, only various propositions which customers are encouraged to 'try out, and see whether they are useful'; It encourages and empowers customers to seek out and create a life-style which suits them; It encourages customers to be in communication with their friends and families, and to strengthen their relationships with them; It solicits no money or other dues, apart from the (extremely cheap - typically £2.50 per hour, and often much less) tuition fees for whatever courses an individual chooses to register into.
If you want to air your prejudices to a group who share them, I suggest you conribute to one of the many unmoderated discussion groups, not on Wikipedia. Thank you. DaveApter 12:46, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 suggests using "the Wikipedia NPOV distinction separating viewpoints into three categories: I) majority, II) minority and III) insignificant."
I suggest that Landmark-boosters express a relatively insignificant minority opinion. the vast majority of the world's population has never heard of Landmark Education. Even the Landmark Education movement gives itself until the year 2020 to spread its gospel to the last unenlightened human. The unknowing constitute the majority.
What of the so-called "graduates" of Landmark Education? Various estimates of the number of Landmark Education "graduates" exist.
The Landmark Education article estimates the number of Landmark Forum "graduates" at 80,000 per annum (years of coverage not specified), with a total of about 800,000 since 1991 (year of grand total not given).
A quote from Charlotte Faltermeyer's 1998 article in Time magazine, as reproduced (without an attributed date) in the wernererhard.com website gives a figure of 300,000 since 1991.
The Internet Archive site presents some historical snapshots from Landmark Education's website:
Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 May 2000 linked to a Time magazine page of March 16, 1998, (Volume 151, number 10) where an article by Charlotte Faltermeyer estimated 300,000 graduates since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 42 offices in 11 countries.
Landmark Education's web-site as of 28 November 2002, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 21 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2001 numbers").
Landmark Education's web-site as of 29 July 2003, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 24 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2002 numbers").
Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 June 2004, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2003 numbers").
Landmark Education's web-site as of 1 April 2005, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 725,000 Landmark Forum attendees since 1991, and 58 offices in 26 countries.
Landmark Education's web-site as of 7 February 2006, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 758,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2004 numbers").
Note that growth as reported here appears somewhat erratic and slowing. Note also that Landmark Education has a reputation for keeping detailed "enrolment" statistics.
Whatever the accurate figures, whatever Faltermeyer's actual estimates, consider the growth-rate, taking the most optimistic figues and rounding up generously:
If (say) a million "graduates", strongly encouraged to enrol others, enrol (say) 100,000 new Forum-attenders in one year (we disregard repeat attendees for this exercise) we get a growth rate of 10%. Apply this, very optimistically, from 1998:
The estimated population of the Earth may reach 8.2 billion by 2020...
Landmark Education, on the basis of such figures, will fail to meet its growth targets and will remain, in terms of the number of its graduates, a relative minority for many years to come. I have not seen any figures to suggest a consistently faster growth rate.
Consider accordingly the way in which Landmark Education spreads its message. A 10% growth rate (with no allowance for drop outs or deaths) needs just every tenth Landmark Education graduate to enrol one person per year successfully - or an average of one enrolment per graduate every ten years. But Landmark Education vigorously encourages a much higher rate of proselytization, and anecdotal accounts and personal experience suggest that some (many) graduates attempt to enrol more than one person every ten years. I suggest that significant numbers of people - almost certainly more than the proportion who eventually become graduates - hear and reject (or hear and ignore) the Landmark Education enrolment approach. Such people have experience of Landmark Education - in the shape of the friend or colleague who attempted to "enrol" them. Such people may research or investigate the nature of Landmark Education to some degree. But nevertheless, such people subsequently dismiss the attempt at "enrolment" and/or reject the idea that they will benefit (or benefit sufficiently) from participating in Landmark Education.
It seems reasonable to surmise that in the matter of Landmark Education, its methods and its product, we could summarize the majority opinion as "Never heard of it"; a significant minority opinion as "No thanks, I have no interest"; and a less significant minority opinion as "Wonderful: it changed my life". Accordingly, skeptical reactions to and assessments of the Landmark Education's sales pitch and reputation have at least as much validity as enthusiastic endorsements do.
- Pedant17 00:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
We have had Erhardism for about 40 years, and Landmark Education for over 15 years. Comparisons with new credit-card offers or with "any new business" seem inappropriate for a long-standing NRM. - Pedant17 04:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, pedant17 and ODB, will you please try to be more concise?
Secondly, will you confine your postings to ones which move the debate forward, and aim to reach a consensus on what can be put into the main article, rather than just having a general rant?
Is this lengthy section about what are appropriate sources for the article, or is it speculation on what the results of an opinion poll on Landmark might be? DaveApter 17:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I don't agree with your characterisation that the article comprises 'stuff coming out of the Landmark PR department.
Neither I nor any other editors that I am aware of have any relationship with Landmark Education other than as a (fairly) satisfied customer. The main re-structuring of the article last November was accomplished by a respected Wikipedian (FuelWagon), who - as far as I know - has no connection with LE at all.
The references in support of what I regard as a majority view are all matters of public record, and do not generally originate from Landmark sources.
Secondly, I don't see anything in the foregoing section from Pedant17 that sheds any real light on what majority opinions might be.
The fact that a slightly larger proportion of people who are offered the opportunity to register into the Landmark Forum decline than accept gives no insight into what their opinion is on the so-called 'controversies'. By far the most common reasons given for declining is 'don't have the time' or 'don't have the money', which is usually a polite way of saying that they are not sufficiently convinced that the benefits to them would be worth the investment. It certainly doesn't mean that they go along with any of the hysterical ravings about cults, brainwashing, psychosis, etc. (most companies would be delighted with anything like a 30% conversion rate by the way).
Almost half of the article is given over to discussion of the so-called controversies. How much more do you want?
Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact - the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.
Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.
From Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:
Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization -- for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.
We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a reasonable idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such details.
"When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance; we must do our best to step back and ask ourselves, "How can this dispute be fairly characterized?" This has to be asked repeatedly as each new controversial point is stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides."
There is no evidence that the number of people holding those opinions is anything other than tiny in proportion to the total number of Landmark customers. There is no evidence that any more than a very small proportion of the customers are at all dissatisfied by the benefits they get from the courses. If you have any evidence from reliable, verifiable, respected sources, why don't you produce it, and if you haven't, what is all this about?
You, ODB, in your paragraph above stated that you believe Landmark to be 'harmful', but you haven't given any indication of actual harm that you believe to have been caused. Would you mbe kind enough to do that, with your estimates of the relative frequency that such things happen, and your evidence for reaching that conclusion? DaveApter 16:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Although there was little information at the time of the suits filed there is a basis to assign blame for the psychotic episodes but est is not completely to blame.
The manner in which the Large Group Training Sessions are held allows the creation of "special circumstances" creating a critical level of exposure from Visual Subliminal Distraction.
The phenomenon was discovered when it caused mental breaks for knowledge workers using the first movable close-spaced office workstations. The Cubicle solved the problem by 1968.
Those who experienced mental breaks would have been previously exposed so that intense exposure during the training session pushed them over the edge.
The same mental breaks happen when Qi Gong or Kundalini Yoga users perform too many sessions in a compact time frame.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/QiGong_Psychotic_Reaction_Diversion.htm
http://visionandpsychosis.net/Kundalini_Yoga_Psychotic_Episode.htm
A longer discussion is on these site pages.
Subliminal Accidental Operant Conditioning is suggested as the acting force in the training seminars.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/EST_Werner_Erhard.htm
They have also happened on polar scientific expeditions, Belgium 1898, and Russian space missions, Soyuz 21.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/Astronauts_Insanity.htm
The phenomenon can be demonstrated with a simple psychology experiment, habituation of the notice you take of movement in peripheral vision.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/a_demonstration_you_can_do.htm
L K Tucker 68.223.107.250 05:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The results section, and the subsection called Post Hoc do not really seem to contain any content. Maybe there are some results, maybe not, and a researcher has said, hey, who knows? Is this useful to the reader? 22:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
A few of the edits you made are ok, but mostly it's the same old nonsense - dragging in anything you can find from obscure, dubious and minority sources to discredit Landmark Education, plus attempts to smear points made legitimately, and mangling the style of the article with unnecessary sub-clauses and qualifying phrases.
The main reason I reverted it outright is that you have flagrantly ignored the notice at the top of this page requesting that this talk page is used to establish consensus before making major edits, and you also ignored the request made to you within this page to make small changes to the article at any one time. If you made one or two amendments to the article at a time, it would be far easier for editors to reach a consensus on the merits of the point you are making.
Even on this discussion page, you only repeat the same old allegations over and again, without coming up with any supporting facts.
The principle charges levelled at Landmark are that it is in some way harmful to at least a portion of the participants.
If there were any truth in that (even if it only applied to a minority of say 10% of customers, and only a small proportion of those came forward), it would be easy to find thousands of specific cases which could be verified. But nobody can come up with any such examples. The reason is very simple - they don't exist.
A considerable amount of space in the article is given over to the so-called controversies that it is a "cult", or uses "brainwashing" techniques, despite the fact that the most cursory investigation reveals that there is no factual basis for these suggestions, and no authoratitive source who has observed the procedings at first hand who is prepared to state that there is.
You also repeatedly re-insert references to Scientology, despite your having been asked above to list similarities and being unable to do so. I know nothing of Scientology, apart from what I have learned by reading the Wikipedia article on it, but the account there describes something which bears no resemblance to any of Landmark's procedures. DaveApter 15:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Taken as a whole, your recent onslaught on the article violates neutrality and due weight policies.
Your continued use of out-of-print and hard to find books (as a principal source of references)is dubious for several reasons. Firstly, it negates a principal point of having references (so that other people can verify for themselves that the source exists and that it does say/imply what is summarised in the article; also so that they can get a sense for themselves of the quality of the research and the reasoning). Secondly, because any work which fails to command enough interest to maintain its availability has questionable status as an "authoratitive source".
To turn to specific parts of your edit:
These were the edits to which I was referring:
I found the book disappointing. Pressman has clearly only told one side of a complex story, and his subjective, sensationalist style serves only to make the intelligent reader wonder what the other side of the story is. The author clearly started his "research" with the fixed outcome (i.e. "Erhard is a bad guy") in mind, and one strongly suspects that he was very selective in those he interviewed and spoke to. I know from personal experience that some of the key information in his book is simply incorrect. Several hundreds of thousands of people around the world clearly benefited from Erhard's extraordinary work - and anyone, however sceptical, must admit that it can best be described as extraordinary. In summary, Pressman appears to be a typical journalist of the cheaper variety: never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
I would not waste time with this unless you enjoy fiction or you love living in a world with a bogeyman around every corner.
"Courses" section - unmerited stylistic mangling which adds nothing to the value of the article. Also inaccurate - the est training does not provide a qualification for registering into Landmark graduate courses.
The "Jargon" section - inaccurate: 'breakthrough' in Landmark terms has no connection with military usage.
My edits of 19 March had their basis, for the most part, in intensive discussions on the Talk page (specially with User:Sm1969), and reflect the agreed outcomes of those discussions. Since I submitted my edits, DaveApter has reverted them twice: on the first occasion claiming that appropriate discussion had not taken place, and on the second occasion asking for Talk-page responses which I had already provided a couple of hours prior.
Total reversions also took place at the hands of 71.146.178.51, a suspected sock-puppet who provided no explanation or justification; and of 66.243.153.70, who alleged but did not justify "bad faith".
I begin to suspect a case of revert-vandalism, suitable for bringing before the relevant Wikipediauthorities.
- Pedant17 13:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I didn't see your "intensive discussions" as reaching any kind of agreement - it seemed to me that you were simply "talking past" the points that Sm19 was making, rather than engaging with them.
The point has been made many times that making edits incrementally would help in refining the article, yet you persist in returning at 3-4 week intervals and making wholesale revisions.
My comments and questions are intended to move us towards a consensus, but your responses seem to me to be more in the nature of cheap jibes and clever debating points rather than an honest attempt to engage with the discussion.
My commitment is to having this article be an accurate impartial concise account of an organisation which is plainly of interest to a significant number of Wikipedia readers and editors. My observations of your contributions to it leave me with the impression that your intention is to use the article as a soapbox for anti-Landmark propaganda - possibly due to failure to recognise your own point-of-view in the matter, rather than any deliberate intention to violate wikipedia's policies.
Within the next 24 hours I will post to this page a summary of points on which I expect we can agree, and points on which we may differ, with a view to moving towards consensus on the question of what should be added to, or subtracted from, the article to improve its quality. DaveApter 20:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The suggestion from Sm1969 that books "go out of print because they need to take such extreme positions to go into print and then they are gone, as happened with Pressman, Lell and Samways" provides a possibility, but an unconvincing one.
It may seem tempting to conclude that such works as W W Bartley's Werner Erhard: The Transformation of a Man: The Founding of EST or Jane Self's 60 Minutes and the Assassination of Werner Erhard: How America's Top Rated Television Show Was Used in an Attempt to Destroy a Man Who Was Making A Difference have gone out of print because of someone taking some extreme positions. But other possibilities exist. Publishers may misread the (potential) market. Subject-matter (such as Erhard and his spin-offs) may go out of fashion or simply lose prominence. Published works may achieve their authors' crusading purposes. Better or more modern books and ideas may eclipse the old ones. Just to identify a few alternative possibilities.
One interesting situation relating to the marketing of books occurs when people with influence attempt to distort the flow of printed matter by manipulating publication and/or distribution. We've seen how Landmark Education, for example, failed to prevent the publication of Martin Lell's book with its inflammatory subtitle translating to "Account of a Brainwashing: The Psycho-Outfit Landmark Education". Another case of potential attempted distortion of book distribution emerges with the statement from the "new" Cult Awareness Network (CAN):
Just a couple of examples of a form of incipient would-be censorship to place alongside the 2004 attempt by Landmark Education to claim damages from the Rick Ross Institute relating to the Institute's web-site materials relating to Landmark Education.
A last (but not least) possibility that might prove a factor in some books going out of print: in recent years this Internet thing has influenced the book market. People with important messages that they wish to communicate may set up a web-site or a blog where once they might have published (or re-published) a pamphlet or a book. The online self-publishing phenomenon makes "publishing" cheaper and easier than in the past. it also makes books relatively more precious than on-line content, since books have more likely profited from the selectivity of a publisher, from the advice of an editor and from the warnings of lawyers.
The implication that books which go out of print "are gone" exaggerates the situation. Apart from second-hand book establishments, libraries ( particulary serious libraries and libraries of record) collect and preserve books quite assiduously. I recommend libraries.
Books, in short, -- even out-of-print books -- continue to have relevance for reference and research purposes, and may well survive better than much of the contemporary electronic ephemera. The fact that some (many, even most) books go out of print eventually does not necessarily reflect on their accuracy or their authority or their importance.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 has noted that in contradistinction to books going out of print:
I see some problems with this argument as expressed.
Scheduled Landmark Forums may not provide a good indicator of growth/decline in the popularity even of Landmark Education courses. Even if scheduled manifestations of the Landmark Forum always take place as scheduled, we do not know how many people attend each one. Even if we had a reliable average figure of numbers attending, we do not know how many repeating attendees lurk behind the numbers. Even if we could learn what proportion of attendees provide fresh blood at the Landmark-Forum level we gain little insight into growth/decline of Landmark Education's numerous other course offerings from Landmark Forum figures alone. And even if we obtained clean figures for this, there would remain, at all levels, the issue of attendees dropping out.
Overall then, necessarily fuzzy estimates of growth/decline of interest in Landmark Education do not compare compatibly with growth/decline of interest in books, where we can expect publishers (at least) to have accurate records of the numbers of volumes printed, the numbers sold and the numbers pulped.
Note too that electronic publishing may have recently impacted on the book trade, distorting the perceived popularity of ideas as measured by volumes printed.
Moreover, the correlation between popularity of books and popularity of Landmark Education appears questionable. The two products have somewhat different markets, very different marking methods, and widely divergent influences affecting their sustainability and profitability. No necessary linkage or correlation exists.Such "verifiable evidence" as we have substantiates nothing overall. Landmark Education enrolments have grown, but over the same period the price of a barrel of crude oil has grown more in relative terms. So what?
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
DaveApter detects an inaccuracy in the claim that est training sometimes suffices as a prerequisite for taking part in Landmark Education courses, and points out that "the est training does not provide a qualification for registering into Landmark graduate courses."
That formulation appears to match current Landmark Education policy for "Landmark graduate courses". But the text as I last edited it did not confine itself narrowly to current policy nor to "graduate" courses, specifically stating:
Without having set up an experiment to test whether non-graduates can purchase the Landmark Education courses available on CD: ("Relationships: Love, Intimacy, & Freedom" and "Causing the Miraculous"), I would point out that the Landmark Education website advertises, (under a separate rubric from the "Graduate Programs") "The Landmark Family Coaching Session": "Open to the public, this program... ". The page for "The Family Coaching Session" itself says:
The Landmark Education website also touts the offerings of its fully-owned subsiary, "Landmark Education Business Development" (LEBD). I detect no mention of specified prerequisites for LEBD courses on the LEBD webpages.
DaveApter also points out that Landmark Education's 'Causing the Miraculous" seminar has an implied prerequisite that participants have "completed" the Landmark forum. Well, surprise, surprise: Landmark Education has changed the rules! I remember how, at the time when Landmark Education introduced this seminar, the publicity made a special pitch to encourage est graduates (as opposed to the other target audience, Landmark Forum graduates) to attend.
This may exemplify an overall pattern. When Landmark Education first began offerring seminars and courses in 1991, it recognised veterans of est and of Werner Erhard and Associates (WE&A) courses as having fulfilled requirements for embarking on the non-Forum courses as appropriate. To have started the credentialling process from scratch immediately whould have interrupted the flow in the ongoing series of courses that Landmark Education wanted to sell to its pre-approved repeat-custom clientele.
Later, one might reasonably surmise, Landmark Education would want to milk its graduate body further by encouraging its members to re-qualify for "higher" courses under new rules. Thus the situation with "Graduate courses" and their prerequisite conditions today.
My formulation of the situation in my last edit, "Landmark Education currently regards... " glossed over but covered these details. The bald statement that replaced my text: "Completing the Landmark Forum is a pre-requisite for registering into any other Landmark Education course" disregards the historic facts and over-simplifies the present policy of Landmark Education.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean this in a bad way - but given all the more substantive issues we are dealing with is not this topic really much ado about nothing and angels dancing on heads of pins? I mean 99% of the time it is true that the Landmark Forum is a pre-requisite for Landamrk's courses. Introductions (obviously) and some Family courses not withstanding it is primarily and for all practical purposes a truism. So- who cares? I don't mind if we softwen the statement to add "with osme expections" or some such but I don't think it matters.
Historically I think the Landmark leadership struggled with how to include the people who participated in the Forum before Landmark and even those that did est. Not that is all sufficiently in the past that I don't believe it really comes up any more. Now, it comes down to "requiring Landamrk Forum " or Not. est is pretty much out of the picture. - Alex Jackl 04:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
DaveApter regards the contributed "Operational Statistics" section as "lenghty, tedious irrelevant" and has removed the section as "spurious".
I repeat my previous and so-far unrefuted comment on the matter: "I attempted to provide a precise, careful reflection of the wording and numbers published (principally) by Landmark Education itself. If one believes statements made by Landmark Education, one could regard these figures as "facts" about the history of the Landmark Forum. Even if one regards Landmark Education as a business, figures relating to growth may interest readers. - Pedant17 13:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)"
The allegedly "spurious" facts and wording in the section come largely from web-pages published by Landmark Education, and paint a picture of company growth. Such statistics seem relevant to a Wikipedia article discussing an self-described "business". I do not know of more accurate published statistics: if found we should add them.
Note that the availability of well-established statistics cannot help but ground what might otherwise become more speculative discussion on Landmark Education's growth and significance in its chosen market.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 states: "Another article reference that I have a problem with is the Eileen Barker article on New Religous Movements, which also has zero references to Landmark Education."
I presume that the expressed "problem" relates to the reference to Barker's book, New Religious Movements. That book, written by a prominent scholar who has expressed skepticism on the matter of cults, nevertheless offers an explanation as to why people accuse certain movements of brainwashing. Given that the popular perception of Landmark Education frequently associates it with brainwashing, Barker's insights seem useful and relevant to a discussioin of Landmark Education, and especially so in a discussion of Landmark Education's alleged brainwashing. As it so happens, Barker's comments tend to question rather than to endorse the notion that groups such as Landmark Education actually may practise brainwashing.
Barker's book appeared in 1989, just before Landmark Education emerged as the successor-owner of the intellectual property, the telephone-lists and the practices of est and of Werber Erhard and Associates. Excluding Barker's work from consideration of brainwashing in the late 20th century on the grounds of timing would resemble discussing a new development in genetic engineering without the freedom to reference Darwin, or banning discussion of Von Neumann's publications in a consideration of Java programming.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
This argument does assume a twice-removed causal link if you don't accept the initial premise that Landmark is brainwashing (which I by the way find little to no evidence for). Better for people interetsted in concepts and subtleties around brainwashing to go somewhere else than this article. There is enough mention in the article of certian people thoughts on Landamrk being associated with brainwashing that any more would begin bending POV balance far too much (In My Opinion) Alex Jackl 04:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 makes the intriguing suggestion that "Landmark Education is not "est".
On a certain superficial level, this suggestion appears accurate: differently-named courses presented by differently-named enities at different times may have changed/developed/transformed.
But equally -- and perhaps even at a more fundamental level -- est gave rise to Landmark Education, and Landmark Education inherits and reflects est.
If at some point in time Landmark Education repudiated est and all its works, forms, methods and practices, let's hear about it. In the meantime, we can assume some sort of connection between est and Landmark Education, between Werner Erhard and Associates and Landmark Education LLC, and between the est training and the Landmark Forum.
In light of this I set up a "Est and Landmark Education" section in the "History" section of the Landmark Education article as a likely spot for discussion of the inheritances and the differences connecting and contrasting the two phenomemena. I take the view that part of history involves coming to terms with the past and making a distinction between past and present. Our very discussion of this topic (est and Landmark Education) reflects the importance and widespread perception of some sort of connection, which a serious encyclopedic treatment of Landmark Education needs to address. ( However, I see that a subsequent has eviscerated the "History" section and removed my contributions as expressing "extreme minority opinion".)
Sm1969 goes on to suggest that in comparing est and Landmark Education "in order for anyone to truly make that comparison, you would have to have someone (a credible source) do both programs and then make the comparison."
I disagree on the necessity for such an approach: indeed, a comparison using this method would provide very little useful data. Any study based on a person (or even multiple people), however "credible", "do[ing] both programs" would fall into the trap of what I think of as the experience fallacy. Psychologists know that we cannot rely on reports of experience. Lawyers, though they have to deal with the personal experiences of their clients, also know how unreliably their reports can reflect actual events. Physical scientists trust calibrated equipment rather than their own impressions. Even parapsychologists have started to learn that what their subjects report counts for very little. But marketers of Landmark Education have yet to learn the perils of relying on the personal account.
If we wish to compare est and Landmark Education (and I believe we must do so in order to gain some understanding of many aspects of the Landmark Education story and phenomenon), we can more profitably employ better forms of evidence: slightly more subtle (but more reliable) indirect methods. The insights of published researchers such as Barker and Pressman provide one valid place from which to start.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
To be totally frank I usually disagree with you, Pedant- not on everything but on a lot. It seems like you have some axe to grind. Please no insult- I am only expressing my opinion and perception. I could be wrong.
In this case, though, I think you raise an interesting question: How do you compare two things that by their nature are experential and do not come with pre-ordained specific measures.
I have done the Landmark Forum and not done the est training. Frankly, everything I know about the est Training is from est graduates accounts, newspaper and magazine articles, and books. I think I would be a bad judge for comparing the est training with the current Landmark Forum. Partly because a lot of the people who have told stories about the Landmark Forum- including published accounts- are so off the mark. Because of this I need to assume at least as bad an accuracy drift in the published accounts on the est Training. Therefore - who knows?
I think you are totally worng as well about there being any advantage to not having been at one. That is how Cold Fusion happened. Enough people believed what they heard without trying it themselves- once peopel started trying it - the story unraveled. Same deal here. I have no repsect for anyone who claims to be able to analyze the Landmark Forum with ANY depth who hasn't studied it directly. That is just good rigor in an investigation or a study.
Anecdotal and second hand accounts do not good science or good reporting make although both have to make do occassionally when they need to.
My advice: Don't listen to people spouting off about something they have not studied in detail. If they have studied the socisaological phenomenon by interviewing people who have done it and want to talk about that GREAT- but all you are doing is polling people 's opinions then. It is one level of depth and does not compare with direct study.
SOoo... that being said I think a section on est and Landmark might be useful but it is such ancient history it should be a small section. Landamrk does not at all by the way deny it is connected hisotrically with the est Training. Werner Erhardt is clearly the originator of a lot of the initial "technology" Landmark started with and many of Landamrk's original founding memebers working with Erhard in WE&A and est. There are no dark secrets in that at all.
- Alex Jackl 02:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 states: Your "debunking" of the surveys is unattributed POV and your own analysis. You can say that the survey methodology was not disclosed, but adding the term "debunking" violates the attribution policy. You also have the reputations of these large marketing research companies (Yankelovich and Harris).
I accept that my use of the word "debunking" slightly overstated my case.
I did not previously realise that I had "the reputations of these large marketing research companies (Yankelovich and Harris)".
I have nothing against Harris Interactive doing surveys and know nothing of the reputation of that organization. But surveys of participants have inherent problems (self-reporting, organizational taint...), and the fact that Landmark Education's website does not disclose details of the methodology of the survey makes the results of this Harris Interactive survey very questionable.
The case against the DYG survey has more sinister overtones. The Landmark Education website touts a "Full Survey" but fails to provide methodology details (once again). That does not necessarity reflect on DYG or on Daniel Yankelovich, it simply demonstrates Landmark Education's apparent inability to pass on meaningful information -- as promised in the phrase "Full Survey" -- in this respect. I do wonder, though, at the accuracy of Landmark Education's apprent implication that "Internationally recognized social scientist, Daniel Yankelovich surveyed more than 1300 people" in person. Note too that Yankelovich personally endorses Landmark Education in his book The Magic of Dialog (2001, pages 143 - 144). Does this expressed published opinion have any potential bearing on the independence and the impartiality of the administration and interpretation of the DYG survey? Landmark Education, while praising Yankelovich, does not even give us the date of that survey, let alone any precautions taken against any perceivable bias.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I, for fun, went to a few sites of organizations that do training of any kind (Harvard, Meta Group, Deloitte, etc.) SOme of them site surveys and polls and what not but they do not have a brief with the full statistcial breakdown and methodology details. You are applying a lens innapropriate to the subject matter. There is no "hidden secrets" about these surveys- just as Harvard's web site (well- as far as I know) has no hidden secrets about it. This is an educational company. If you have some "evidence" of wrong-doing - GREAT! Let's see your proof. Lack of methodology documentation by non-scientists and non-lawyers is hardly damning evidence. Let's compare apples to apples, please. Otherwise these revisions will take FOREVER to sort out with NPOV. It is these kinds of assertions that make people react negatively to your revisions Pedant- they don't seem neutral- they seem bent on promulgating some point of view you have fostered about Landmark Education.
Believe me, Pedant, I have seen these guys at work and they are flawed. They are a human institution with all that impluies- but they are no more flawed than any other. I also respect you diligence and your committment to stick to your guns. I don't want the pro-Landamrk people to squash anything you are saying because you have said somethings worthy of consideration. However, from my standpoint you are evincing extremely ANTI-Landmark biases in your revisions and that will keep prompting strong counter -revisions to keep the page balanced.
Eventually we will need to call in a third-party moderator again and that will probably not go in your favor. SO- let's focus on the issues of susbstance - not dissecting the pre-requisites of courses for legalistic exceptions or the lack of scientific methodology attribution on an educational company's website.
Sm1969 states: "I think the Class-A/B/C/D distinction is relevant. Class-A (never heard of LE), Class-B (heard and declined), Class-C (did and liked) and Class-D (did and disliked) is relevant for accurate reporting of the points of view. Not much is said about why people choose not to do the Landmark Forum, but Class-C reflects consistent favorable surprise and is a high majority over class D. In other words, the majority POV should reflect that people who chose to do the Landmark Forum were surprised and liked it. You want to conflate Class-B and Class-D and cause the readers researching LE to be mislead to believe that, if, for example, they did the Landmark Forum, they would not like it (or feel that it produces results); that's misleading."
Would that we could divide up the world so consistently and neatly! But we cannot..
The characteristic of "surprise" has not appeared before in this particular typology. Unless we can find evidence for it, I propose to quietly drop this sort of speculation about "surprise" as a factor for subdividing the universe.
We do not have any reliable statistics that would confirm the assertion that [did and liked] outnumbers [did and disliked]. And here I feel moved to point out that the original definition of "Class C" read: "heard of it, did it and found it useful". This shifting from "found Landmark Education useful" to "liked" won't help to keep our debate on track. It also introduces an emotional element which may make the discussion even more anarchic.
But our real problem lies in distinguishing [noted and declined] from [did and rejected]. We cannot reliably make this distinction. Many commentators simply fail to mention whether or not they took part in a Landmark Education activity. And even when they say or imply that they did, we cannot always know how to classify them. The journalists who infiltrate the Landmark Forum may or may not participate fully as individuals, but some at least retain some shreds of journalistic detachment and live to report the tale. Likewise observing psychologists and anthropologists and sociologists may find it hard to put aside their specialized training and learned insights, even if they wish to do so.
Since we cannot reliably distinguish [noted and declined] from [did and disliked], we must perforce often conflate the two.
We may even have a small group (which we could call "Class Z") - those who have not participated, but who nevertheless find evidence of something to approve of (purely your opinion that this is a "small group" - I don't know what data you base this on DA). But the large majority of those with an opinion on Landmark Education fall higgledy-piggledy into a class of disapprovers (again, just your personal opinion - and again without any reliable supporting data DA): whether or not they participated fully to the bitter end, whether they walked out of an "Introduction" or a "Guest Evening" or a "Landmark Forum" (From my own observations, I estimate that around 1% walk out of a Landmark Forum, and perhaps 2-3% from guest events), whether or not they rapidly or gradually determined to stay well away from any such activities.
The foregoing simply reminds us that participation (or non-participation) has very little to do with what we want to measure here -- we want to measure views on Landmark Education, with the aim of establishing majority views and significant minority views, not as an end in itself, but so that we can reflect all of those those views in our Wikipedia articles.
In summary, any views questioning of the merits of Landmark Education form an overall majority. Any views which accept that Landmark Education has some good and worthwhile features form a minority, though possibly a significant minority.
As for the stated concern about misleading people into a particular belief or attitude or expectation, that sounds like a marketing concern. Wikipedia does not have a mission of carrying out marketing or advertising on behalf of Landmark Education - rather it aims to report facts - including the fact that many people hold such-and-such opinions.
If we DO wish to forestall any misleading of potential customers, we can best do this by reporting ALL opinions about Landmark Education, regardless of our fascinating calculations of what constitutes minority, majority or extreme minority status.That would leave the potential customers with the ability to do their own research and to make up their own minds. This provides an excellent argument for accepting and recording all views on the matter. Wikipedia, after all, aims for encyclopedic coverage.
The issue of whether the Landmark Forum produces results receives probably its best expression in the work of Fisher et al (Fisher, J D; Silver, R C; Chinsky, J M; Goff, B and Klar, Y: Evaluating a Large Group Awareness Training: A Longitudinal Study of Psychosocial Effects Springer-Verlag, 1990, ISBN 0387973206), whose rigorous study came to the definitive conclusion that participating in a proto-Forum had minimal effects on participants.
All other studies/surveys known to me rely on self-reported experiences, and even apart from their apparent methodological deficiencies, we know that anecdotal testimonials of personal experience have minimal weight in the evaluation of a claim. - Pedant17
Now this is more interesting. Let me summarize:
- All(or the ones mentioned anyway) the surveys or studies done with actual graduates have demonstrated that either it produced positive results or has "minimal effects".
- You think the ones with the positive results had poor methodology because you don't know what most of their methodology was and don't agree with their conclusion.
Great- that is extremely positive for Landmark. Why do you think that is negative? Studies on the positive or negative impact (a relativistic, self-perceptual value judgement anyway - as you point out) are automatically EXTREMELY soft science and hard to make measurable.
I think a broad, new study of a group of particpants over the course of a year would be VERY interesting. I would love to see the metrics they would use to define success given the promises of the Landmark Forum. Who is going to fund that kind of extensive study? I am not. Landmark is already pretty happy with the success of the studies thay have funded. Pedant?
Until we find a funding source to do one, this is all smoke and mirrors. The negative value judgements are primarily third hand accounts- non-researchers talking about people they knew who did it(not entirely- just most). The studies we have are neutral to positive about the Landmark Forum.
There are published works and each of those must be evaluated but most of those are also just second-hand accounts of personal testimony- which you assert is not meaningful. That wipes out 95% of negative literature about the Landamrk Forum in one fell swoop.
I am not trying to be bad here- but come on. The thing I like about this topic is it is susbstantive and worth discussing. There just isn't any case I see for any revisions based on it...
The text:
has disappeared from the article with the comment "Reference is on est, not LE".
Schwertfeger wrote her comments in the preface to a book on Landmark Education. Her mention of est she evidently considered relevant to Landmark Education in this context. As Landmark Education has undoubted links with est -- not least the purchase of its intellectual property via Werner Erhard and Associates, Schwertfeger's comment merits inclusion in a discussion of the philosophical origins of Landmark Education's activities. (We need citations for the people who have compared Landmark Education ideas to those of " Heidegger, Richard Rorty, Sartre, Fernando Flores [...] Westernized and popularized Zen ... Socrates [and] Wittgenstein" as well...) - Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Landmark_Education&diff=44789706&oldid=44789664 Changing this heading in the article to "Management" implies that the Landmark Forum leaders that it discusses count as managers. It also precludes the inclusion of historical figures, prominent in Landmark Education, who no longer rank (or never ranked) as "Management". They too deserve a place in this hall of infamy. - Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I am really curious....
- Alex Jackl 05:34, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
In the "Management" article, there appeared to be a sort of random collection of people; some of whom appeared to hold positions of management and others who did not. I researched other major companies to see what their articles said about their management persons/structure and found very little (please see: Tony Robbins, The Learning Company, Target Corporation, and Wal-Mart). At most, I discovered a list of Wal-Mart board members and a link to a very brief biography of the company's CEO. Even Tony Robbins article gave only a minimal description of Mr. Robbins personal life. While the heads of a company are pertinent and important to an informational article about a company—the slew of disjointed employees is not, and calls into question the NPOV of that article. I’ve removed all names from the management page with the exception of the CEO of Landmark Education, Harry Rosenberg, and the CEO of Landmark Education Business Development, Steve Zaffron. Blondie0309 16:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
DaveApter has changed the text:
to read:
with the comment: "remoed marginal minority opinion".
I know of no evidence that makes the legitimate comment on books going out of print a "marginal minority opinion". I await evidence of facts or definitive refutation before accpting this undue POV highlighting of out-of-printedness.The Lell book, as THE published book on Landmark Education, has particular resonance for our Landmark Education article. Have other books specifically devoted to Landmark Education ever even appeared in print, let alone remained in print? - Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Other editors have transformed "Various opinions on Landmark Education" into "Generally unfavorable opinions on Landmark Education".
Let me repeat what I stated in a previous discussion:
I've seen nobody coming forward with further discussion of the points I raised; accordingly, we should NOT -- without further discussion of the issue -- change this section-header to use a misleading title such as "Generally unfavorable..." -- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much of a meeting of minds here. And the same points keep getting made ad nauseam. Can we just pause to take stock of the situation?
What facts on this subject can we be sure of?
1) Tens of thousands of people from dozens of countries do the Landmark Forum every year, and tens of thousands also do other courses offered by Landmark Education. The majority of those who do the Landmark Forum do at least one other Landmark Course.
2) The majority of those who do it report that they got worthwhile results, that it represented good value for money, and was well worth the time spent.
3) A large proportion of those who do Landmark courses recommend them to their friends, family and colleagues.
4) Some people who did the Landmark Forum subsequently said that they didn't like it and/or didn't get useful results.
5) Some acquaintances of people who did Landmark courses don't like the apparent effects.
6) Some acquaintances of people who did Landmark courses do like the apparent effects.
7) Some people have formed an opinion that Landmark courses are harmful in some way, at least for some participants.
8) Some journalists have written articles critical of Landmark Education.
9) Some journalists have written articles giving a substantially positive account of Landmark Education.
10) Some people have from time to time given the opinion that Landmark Education is a cult.
11) Landmark Education has none of the characteristics that define a cult.
12) Some people have from time to time given the opinion that Landmark Education uses "brainwashing" techniques.
In order to give "due weight" to the differing opinions above, we need to have some idea of the numbers of people who hold them, and what is the basis for their opinion, and what is the expertise and reputation of the people who express them.
Regarding (2), the only specific sources we have are the surveys quoted in the article. Pedant and ODB want to have these disregarded entirely because of a lack of detail on the methodology, but they give no evidence whatsoever for any alternative estimates, still less any sources for such. Anyone can get a feel for the spectrum of reactions to the Landmark Forum by going along to any Tuesday evening session. What is invariably observed is over 90% entirely satisfied with what they have just been through. In my experience typically 0, 1 or 2 people (out of 150-200) leave during the course, and 0, 1 or 2 are complaining at the end.
Regarding (4), the only evidence is the complaints on various bulletin boards and discussion forums and on sites maintained by implacable critics. Most are anonymous so we have no way of evaluating the authority and reliability of the writer. Even if we take all at face value, and assume that all are distinct individuals, the total number is an infinitesimal proportion of the numbers who have done the Landmark Forum. Many of these openly admit that they didn't do the assignments and/or didn't keep the promises they made at the start of the course, so perhaps it's not surprising they didn't experience any benefits.
Regarding (5) and (6), reaction of acquaintances, there appears to be no objective data, but it clearly isn't universal that acquaintances are spooked by the effects of Landmark courses. My estimate is that more find their friends to be more energetic, honest, reliable and/or empathic etc. than complain about them becoming "obsessed" or "weird" etc.
Regarding (7), harmful effects, the number of identifiable alleged cases in support of this is insignificant in relation to the number of landmark Customers (less than 0.001%), and in none of them is a clear-cut link established anyway.
Regarding (8) and (9), journalistic appraisal, there seem to me to be at least as many items giving an essentially positive account, and the proportion seems to be much higher in the "serious" rather than "sensationalist" part of the press spectrum. It's up to individuals to review the sources and come to their own conclusions.
Regarding (10), "cult" allegations, the only identifiable accusers are a handful of self-appointed "cult experts". Clearly they have a vested interest in scaremongering, and a vested interest in refusing to own up to misjudgements. Furthermore none of them have observed Landmark courses themselves, nor do they show any convincing evidence of accurate knowledge of Landmark's methodology. On every occasion where they have had to either justify or retract the accusation, they have chosen to retract. Yet they continue to maintain the stance they have explicitly disavowed, eg by selectively publishing hostile anonymous opinions on their websites whilst asserting a lack of accountability for the same.
Regarding (12), the "brainwashing" debate, the only sources that Pedant has managed to come up with are an offhand comment in an article in a lifestyle and gossip magazine, and one book that never made it into the English language writtten by one disgruntled customer 13 years ago and long out of print. The author has no credentials in the field and could not confirm when cross-examined under oath that he had been brainwashed anyway. Does this really count as a 'notable source'? On the other had we have attributable opinions by eminent psychiatrists and religious leaders that there is no resemblance to brainwashing. Does this really justify the best part of a screenful in the article dealing with this topic?
In short, although the article notes that "Landmark Education and its methods evoke considerable controversy, with passionate opinions held both by supporters and by detractors," it turns out that a search for notable sources for the detractors' position fails to come up with much. It is almost impossible to find credible authorities citing actual facts or reliable evidence to back up the criticisms levelled. Against this background, the article already gives considerable space to airing their views. Pedant's edits invariably have the impact in total of emphasising negative opinions and undermining supportive views.
Pedant17 clearly reveals a strong anti-Landmark POV in his comments on this page. Of course he is perfectly entitled to that. What he is not entitled to do is make repeated attempts to hijack this article to propagandize his own viewpoint. DaveApter 13:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
1. I made a series of changes that I consider corrections against POV attacks on the site.
2. There is an LGAT page. It is currently appropriately referenced that some consider Landmark to be an LGAT. All the rest is fine material for someone to put up on the LGAT page. Just to make it easier for someone to do this I added an explicit reference to the LGAT page for anyone interested.
3. People should sign in if they are going to make edits. I am not interested in debating with an IP address.
4. At least half of the "References" where not appropriate to this page - they were about Cults, LGATs and other things. I considered just renaming the section "Unfavorable Landamrk Education References" but then decided that that was just catering to a POV attack on what is supposed to be a NPOV article so I took it out. There is a cult page and there is an LGAT page. I think the poster of that section should feel free to go to work on those pages OR OR
5. Recommend some references here on the Talk page and let's get some agreement that they represent the subject in a NPOV way and then let's post them.
6. I am happy to discuss any of these changes- I am too busy and don't have time for a soapbox. However, I will maintain the integrity of the pages I am watching or call in a moderator if the attacks get to be too much.
- Alex Jackl 00:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Rading this article I find a subtle bias in favour of Landmark. I dont have an oppion either way on Landmark I just think the article should be more neutral.
I believe this article is trapped in that form of debate centered around false duality. Do people think an article on banana trees should have 50% stuff negative about banana trees and 50% positive about banana trees? No- you put in the facts about banana trees. Now if there is some dissention on the subject of banana trees you would want to reference that but the majority of the article would be facts and generally understood knowledge about the topic of banana trees written mostly by experts on banana trees.
In this case, there are a few people out there with radical and deeply-held negative opinions about Landmark Education. At the risk of generalizing, they keep trying to shift the POV of the article to be about talking about their beliefs or defending Landmark about those beliefs. It has been demonstrated on these pages that this is a SIGNIFICANT minority belief and we have had to pull in moderators at least twice to pull these revisionists back.
Some of the points they add, I believe, are worthy of comment and some are just blatant negative spin. I think the current article is still too heavily shifted in the direction of the unfavorable POV, but Wikipedia is about the "commons" right? They have a right to their opinions so there is a fairly extensive section about some of those minority concerns.
Any more emphaiss than already exists there would inaccurately represent the facts of the article. In My Opinion.
SO, hopefully we are coming to an understanding with Pedant17 (a person with some of those opinions, but at least talking and presenting their case) and have stabilized things. Those that change the content and don't even register themselves as who they are... mostly we will just reverse those as vandalism.
I read the article and I find it more neutral than in early revisions but still slanted to the negative. *shrug* Thank God we are all different- the world would be so boring!
- Alex Jackl 01:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm in favor of a NPOV article as well. I think there needs to be more content actually speaking about Landmark Education and less about the controversies surrounding it. While it is noteworthy to mention some of the controversies, they should be relevant to the overall article. At the moment, some of the controversies barely seem related to the content present in the rest of the article.
In reviewing the entire page. I found a few things that I cleaned up- there was an old request for citation that had the citation added but the request was still there. There were a few sections where a lot of extra verbiage was put in to, perhaps, make it sound legal or in doubt or something, which verbiage I removed. :-)
For instance, in the scope section I removed the plethora of various ways it was written to imply this is "just" what Landmark says. Saying it once at the begining is enough. Everyone gets that is Landmark's position. If you ask for the charter or scope of a company it is obviously their "stated" scope and is obviously what they "maintain". Saying it over and over agian just clutters the article.
I also took out a incorrect change to the page which changed the reference to limited Liability Corporation [LLC] to [LEC] . This was just an error of someone not reading carefully enough before changing the article.
As always, feel free to contact me with questions or concerns.
- Alex Jackl 05:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed these (again) because they violate several of Wikipedia's policies, most especially the NPOV and citation of sources.
Judging from these edits and others you have made on other topics, you don't seem to have grasped the nature of Wikipedia - it is not a discussion board for posting up your personal opinions and observations. The statements should be in the realm of facts, not opinions or value judgements, and the published sources where these facts can be verified should be provided.
Furthermore, several of the points you inserted are already discussed elsewhere in the article. DaveApter 11:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I was reading through this artical and was following the links.
I could not see any reason why "hypnosis" & "martial arts" were included in the see also section.
martial arts just through me. In my limited understanding of Landmark Education they are not related in any way to martial arts.
I agree. I am going to weed out the non-directly related "See Also"s or at least categorize them clearly. This is a site about Landmark Education NOT Werner Erhard or EST. ALthough Werner Erhard and EST have a place in the history leading up to Landmark Education it is FAR TOO OVER EMPHASIZED in this article. I am not going to try to solve the bigger problem- but I will clean up the "See Also" section.
Hopefully we will not have to involve the Wikipedia's administrators involved in this. If this keeps up we will propbably need to do that again. Managing POV is critical with a site that has as much contraversy attached to it.
Alex Jackl 14:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I think almost all the financial stuff about Werner Erhardt and EST and WEA is ancient history- all pre-Landmark.
In speaking with the user Smeelgova he said that
"these issues are not ancient history, considering Werner Erhard is getting a payout of a $15 million dollar licensing fee, plus 50% of pre-tax profit from Landmark, and the likelihood that the license to Landmark will revert back to him in under 3 years. (At least from the research that I have read so far.)"
I am getting documentation for this right now. But I am clear that some of this is innaccurate and some of it is outdated.
My understanding is that about 3 - 5 years ago Landmark bought out the $15 million dollar ( I don't know the exact figure by the way- I am using Smeelgovas as a reference so we are talking about the same thing) licensing agreement and now owns all of the technology outright. My understanding is that the licensing agreement that was bought out those years ago was the sum total of the existing fiscal relationship with Werner Erhardt.
He definitely is not getting 50% of the pre-tax profit so you should check your sources because that is wildly inaccurate. I know you are referencing Pressman's book (terrible reference by the way since he wrote it as a hack job it isn't likely to be full of NPOV data! :-)) and an article I haven't read from some paper called the the "Metro" from 1998. We should probably see if we could reference some public documents rather than what these two authors thought (not withstanding the fact that Pressman's information is 14 years old!)
Metroactive is a Northern California meta-site specializing in arts and entertainment information and featuring content from three of the San Francisco Bay Area's leading publications: Metro, Silicon Valley's Weekly Newspaper; Metro Santa Cruz; and the North Bay Bohemian. Both Metroactive and Metro's weeklies have won national awards for writing, editing and design. website, Metroactive
Alex notes: The citation is relevant to the section- its accuracy is all that is in question. I have located the article thanks to Smeelgova's assistance. Here is the URL: Landmark Article in Metro I have contacted the author to see if she has any notes on her sources. She does not cite any in the article and she herself is not an expert- she is a reporter who attended a Forum and talked to some people and then wrote the piece for the Metro. Her assertions on the finances are not attributed so it will be hard to find out where she got them from unless she can find her records that go back that long.
Alex Jackl 20:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Back to Smeelgova: Quite frankly, Landmark Education's parent organization was founded by Werner Erhard, and there should be a small yet significant piece on him present on this article's page. Smeelgova 16:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I have heard that Werner Erhardt occassionally will do a conference or consult but have never seen that personally. I will see if I can get some official or unofficial stance on that.
I will look for documentation on these matters because unlike the WEA and EST finincials and goings on I think Werner Erhardt's financial ties to the organization has some relevance to this article. (Not too large, but it deserves a treatment).
Alex Jackl
14:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Because of that I am going to reverse this change. I will try to soften my source note a little but i think it needs to stay or we need to take the assertion out.
This frustrating because any idiot can say anyhting about anything and if a reporter reports that unattributed we should put it into an encyclopedia article? I don't think so. But I agree we can't just remove the reference so I thought my source note was a good compromise. I am looking for contradictory source documentation that is meaningful. I have read her other articles- this woman was by no means an expert and this was a one shot assignment for her.
Let's talk about this more. I will put a kinder, gentler version of my warning on the article site. Alex Jackl 23:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem with including things that we are almsot certian is untrue and there is dispute about is that it misleads the reader and diminishes WIkipedia's repiutation as a source of accurate information.
I have this page as one of the pages I have volunteered to look over and keep vandal-free. it is a constant struggle with this because of the contraversersy and strong opinion on all sides.
We had gotten to a point where the page had stabilized and we were making slow gradiual changes with discussions about it here. Let's not have to pull in the Wikipedia NPOV police again. In both cases it was decided that the anti-Landmark contingent was vandalizing and we did a massive change over. Let's not do that again.
To perform a sanity check I have been checking other web sites about organizations and corproations. 1) Some of them do need POV checks becasue they ar eoften blatant marketing for thwir company. 2) Not SINGLE ONE I FOUND DEDICATES THE PERCENTAGE OF ITS ARTICLE TO NAY-SAYERS AND CRITICS AS THIS ONE DOES. 3) IF THIS ARTICLE HAD TO GO THROUGH A pov SHIFT IT WOULD BE PUSHED TO THE MORE POSITIVE ABOUT LANDMARK. 4)Let's stop the revising and start discussion streams on the talk page and when we reach consesnus we will then move content on the page. It will slow things down but- what's the hurry. This article states the facts and gives a thorough overview of Landmark Education and it s critics view points. 5) This is an article about Landamrk Education NOT Werener Erhardt or EST or WEA. Let's stick to that there ar emore than enough reference to that- people get it. There is a connection.
Thanks! Trying to avoid calling in the cops!
Alex Jackl 00:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
This all boils down to point three: "relative balance". There is not a "certain degree of transparency" - there is an excess of content not about the core topic of the article. This article is NOT about Werner Erhardt, EST, or WEA. It is also not about cults. Now, it is contingent on us to mention the contraversies but the percentage of content in this article on those topics compared to the core topic is very high compared to other sites. I am not a "pro-Landmark fanatic" but I am struggling to pare down what seems to me to be heavily editorial content that is driven by an anti-LE bias. I want to be responsible about "seems" but that position has been validated twice now when we pulled in uninvolved Wikipedia editors to intervene.
This is an article about Landmark Education - the fact that you think data about the vocabulary and courses- data DIRECTLY relevant to the topic might be superfluous is a good indicator of where you are looking.
In point one: Singer's comments after the fact are all besides the point. If we listed the sour grapes of everyone who lost a court battle in every legal battle listed in Wikipedia it would fill volumes. The bottom line is when she was under oath she told a different story. I appreciate you feel there is more to the story but that section is about legal challenges. Let's keep it to that.
In point two: It isn't a legal document. Don't put it into the legal document section. I am not saying don't put it in the article. It is a fine and valid reference - just not a legal document.
In point three: I agree
In point four: Balance is the key. We all have different points of balance - as long as we keep our eye on balance this will all work out. We just need to keep our eye out for people not interested in improving the article but interested in inserting a particular POV. Using this as a kind of bulletin board.
In point five: I apologize if I insulted anyone by inferring they were vandals. I am just committed that we keep improving the article and not get swept up in POV wars.
Thanks!
Alex Jackl 03:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe this is a tricky piece - things have changed. We now have more accurate data and if data exists we should stick totally to authoratative sources. I have stated before that journalist's opinions that are not backed up by primary sources are "guy in a bar" kind of references. If the person speaking doesn't attribute and has no expertise in the subject they should not be in an encyclopedia. I am in agreement that false data or speculative data not be included. However we don't want to get too crazy about. Alex Jackl 14:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I made some corrections and reorganized the section. It was completely unbalanced and bordering on inflammatory with the majority of the section making reference to books, web pages and people who had made references to LE in them, thus indicating that there may be some truth to it being a cult simply because some book had a section or some website had a page. That would be "guilt by mention" and just because the name of a person or company shows up in someones book or on someones web page about ANY subject doesn't connect them to that subject in reality. That's what sensational journalism is always looking to do, but Wikipedia, intending to be an encyclopedia, cannot have such biased entries. The option was to take all those lines out but in the interest of keeping it balanced I chose to rework the section so both "sides" were represented.
I reorganized this information and put what was under Labor Practices under a new heading Landmark Education in France. After reading these sections it is obvious that an area of "controversy" (which is what this section is about) is the French thing AND the section about Berlin (formerly under "Legal Status") has no relevance. Those lines simply indicate that the Berlin Senate at one time classified Landmark as espousing a "religious world view" - if that were true it is clearly irrelevant in a section called Legal Status - and now countered themselves and now call Landmark a "provider of life assistance." All irrelevant so I removed it. This subsection is now consistent with the intent of this main section.
To be consistent the heading doesn't work inside the overall section and implies some list of allegations. The section has one allegation followed by one strong counter by an expert who clearly states that it is not brainwashing. More appropriate to this controversy section and to what is actually happening in this sub-section, I changed the heading.
Smeelgova; It looks like you just took some irrelevant information that I removed from another sub-heading where it didn't belong and dropped it here. It is still irrelevant. That whole thing about "pulling the strings" that you are committed to just baffles me, in the realm of someone contributing to an encyclopedia. It is a sensational quote pulled from an article where an electronics engineer in Colorado was giving his opinion:
"Landmark alumnus Walter Plywaski, a Colorado electronics engineer who took on the company after his daughter ran up a $3,000 tab on courses, thinks Erhard is still pulling the strings."
How does that qualify to be included in an encyclopedia article?
Also, what relevance is it that former staff members of one organization now work for another one, even if they are family members? How does that equate to financial ties. If I hired the accountant of my former company to do my personal accounting while I was an employee there, then left that company, but still use that accountant. . . does that give me financial ties to my former employer? This seems to be what you are saying by putting those peoples names here. If you want them listed in the article, the only possible place they could go is under some "current management personnel" section and even then I am not sure how relevant that would be, or who is going to take the time to keep it current when changes are made.
Also, how does the fact that Landmark put up a favorable site for Erhard, when they have already acknowledged that they respect the contribution he has made and since they use the "technology" they bought from him, equate to financial ties?
Also, you show no source for what is obviously confidential information; licensing fees paid and technology reverting in 2009, as an example. You provide a link to an old MetroActive article (The est of Friends) in which the author has the exact paragraph that you have put in your edit, without even updating it, by the way (I am sure Erhard is no longer 63). The author doesn't give a source for that confidential information either. So far as I know, Landmark is a privately held company and unless you (or she) got that information from them or Erhard directly, you are claiming to know (and worse, pass on) something you do not know. Otherwise, you would quote the real source.
This kind of work on this site that is sure to corrupt it and ruin the intention. THIS IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA. Your opinions, or worse, someone elses opinions passed off as the truth, do not belong here. There are other places to register your opinions. As far as I am concerned your intentions are counter to the intention of this resource. The first thing that I was impressed by when I first looked at Wikipedia was their statement that this is not a place for expressing your own opinions. I request you stop doing that, and stop using others as if they are facts. Dante C 16:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I took out "Sudbud" and "Hypnosis" as there is NO direct link of these to Landmarks programs. I am curious to know who put them here and on what basis? It occurs that any Philosophical References regarding Landmark's programs need to come from Landmark, and therefore, frankly I question ALL the others listed here unless someone from Landmark or some one else can say why there are here, BUT there is no indication of a source for this information in this section. I recommend removing this entire section really, but make these changes for now.
Whether another user agreed to your changing my edits back or not (I am in communication with them to find out if they did agree) what you keep trying to put in this section, which I keep removing, has NOTHING to do with this section and / or is not sourced. I am still waiting for you to provide an accurate source for the claim that technology reverts to Werner Erhard in 2009. You cannot use the Time article for this as that author didn't quote her sources either, in an article that was clearly slanted negatively against Landmark. I say again, neither you nor she could possibly have that information.
And, you repeat information which is also listed in the section immediately above this one; Current Involvement. And, you keep refering to Erhard as 63 years old - I know that that's not possible. And, you make claims for something about the Mexico deal which was "later revealed". . . by whom?
I don't think you have a clear idea of what Wikipedia is trying to do and I don't mean to be persona but your writing and quoting non sourced articles from magazines (no less) and from clearly biased articles (no less) is nothing more than polite mud slinging. This works for magazines, newspapers, the National Enquirer but just not here. An encyclopedia is nothing and useless at best, and dangerous at worst (given it is used for reference material by many people), if it is not accurate and the material included in each article relevant to the topic.
As I said before, there are plenty of places for you to get your opinion accross about Erhard, Landmark or anything else you have an opinion about. I request that you respect the opportunity that Wikipedia is and work inside the guidelines they have set out.
I believe that many, if not most, of Smeelgova's external links violate this wikipedia guideline:
DaveApter 18:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed a quote that was represented as if it was a viable source regarding Werner Erhard's supposed involvement. As I explained before, the Time magazine quote of an electonics engineer from Colorado expressing his OPINION that Erhard is "pulling the strings" is CLEARLY someone adding inaccurate / unsourced information as if it were the opinion of "some claim" vs. one person, not qualified to say, expressing his opinion. Dante C
Regarding your attempt to continue to add the irrelevant information about Erhards personal attorney (though I doubt you have talked with Erhard or Schreiber directly to see if they still have that relationship), even if it is true, it is still not relevant. Who cares? and Why would they? Why would someone interested in looking up information about a company IN AN ENCYCLOPEDIA (by the way) care about the possibility that the former owner's attorney is still on the board of directors of said company? How does that equate to that former owners Current Involvement? This section is about Erhards Current Involvement not Schreibers. If you have a reason for including such seemingly irrelevant information you should explain the relevance or make the connection which demonstrates "current involvement." Since you do neither, and until you do, this type of information doesn't belong here.
In addition, your inference that Erhard is "currently involved" because Landmark started the website on him is stretching it, albeit clever. . . as accurate as that information may be, it is still not relevant. Please add "relevant" to your editing of this article vs. just accurate. This kind of unnecessary, irrelevant information just bogs down the article. Unless or until you can make a case for including speculations, inferences and opinions as relevant to the article, I request you keep them out. Dante C 16:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I have added sources, in blockquoted citation format, to the Werner Erhard section. These sources are reputable, and in fact the New York Magazine source includes information from CEO Harry Rosenberg regarding the purchases from Erhard in 2001. Smeelgova 15:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I've placed an Template:NPOV tag on this article, as well as in a particular section. There is an excess of "promotional" language taken apparently from Landmark Education itself, rather than neutral language from reliable sources about the organization. In general, articles should cite assertions, particularly controversial ones, and such citations should preferably be publications not produced by the subject of the article, or those involved with the subject. Additionally, care must be taken when using POV verbs such as "claims", "maintains", "asserts"-- all of which are attributed nebulously to "Landmark Education". See: Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Claim_and_other_synonyms_for_say -- Leflyman Talk 01:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
In reading through this article, this is the first section I saw that made no sense and is inappropriate for what is supposed to be an encyclopedia article. It's not neutral at all and looks mostly like hearsay ("some critics say" or "supporters say"), etc. It ignores the section above by DYG and their findings and quotes Langone regarding LGATP's which is irrelevant to this article. Since Langone isn't quoted about Landmark, the LGATP information belongs on a page for that subject if someone wants to add one. This section of the article isn't NPOV as well as being poorly written and makes no point worthy of referencing for someone wanting to use this article for reference material. It looks like a recent editor called for sources to be cited on the "some critics" and "supporters say" lines, so if someone can provide those it may be worth adding this section back in. WBLman 01:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I combined some sections to eliminate redundancy. The History title was at the bottom of the article just floating there with no related information before or after it, so I moved it to the top of the article and combined the Naming and Timeline section under the heading History since both of those sections contain only historical information. I also removed the line "For information about pre Landmark entities see. . . " which was under the previous Timeline section because that information and those links were already just above in the pre-edited format and I left them there in my edit. WBLman 18:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
First, some disclosure: I have done the Landmark Forum and Seminar Series, and while I did enjoy and benefit from them, I do consider some of their marketing tactics dubious, and I challenge their claim they do not espouse an ideology.
What this is about is the positioning of positive and negative comments about Landmark. It appears that the negative comments are usually placed first, with the (probably unintentional) consequence that they appear to be refuted by the subsequent positive claims. Section-by-section, in every relevant case:
Academic studies: first study positive (pro-Landmark), second study negative (anti-Landmark); next three positive. Also, every single one of these studies was commissioned by Landmark, quoted from the Landmark website, or both. This is hardly independent and verifiable.
Is it a cult?: first two comments negative; next three positive
Landmark in France: first sentence negative, rest of paragraph positive; second paragragh largely negative
Landmark in Berlin: first sentence negative, rest of paragraph positive
Clergy and Landmark: all positive (so why put it in? There must have been some dispute in the first place)
Is it brainwashing?: first paragraph negative; second paragraph positive; third paragraph somewhat negative; rest of section strongly positive (an eminent psychiatrist? Says who? He's not eminent enough to have a Wikipedia entry!)
Large Group Awareness Training: effectively negative (assuming that LGAT is a bad thing, which is the implication)
Lawsuits against Landmark: first example ends with Landmark's analysis of the case (!); second ends with an obscure external link; third is effectively negative
Lawsuits brought by Landmark: first case positive (what was the defamation?); second case strongly positive (why choose that testimony to include?); third case negative; fourth case negative; fifth case not clearly positive or negative.
Registration Pressure: first quote negative; second quote positive.
As you can see, it's not a 100% correlation, but I think it reads with even more bias than this list indicates. Pending vehement objections, I will make some edits to the article in the near future to better achieve what I see as NPOV. Ckerr 10:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
OK with me. In concept. Though I am not clear as to how you plan to address it. -- Epeefleche 11:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not willing to attempt editing a hotly debated article like this but I'd like to urge that some short statement of the controversy be put near the very beginning of the article, e.g. "proponents say the forums make positive changes in people's lives; critics accuse it of being cult-like". IMO the early history (i.e. the early connection to Est) should also be mentioned at the top of the article. This is a very weak article since it says nothing til halfway through about what the controversies mentioned in the introduction actually are. Phr ( talk) 09:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Imagine an article that said "there is no hard evidence that Ramon Martinez has any direct current involvement with the Los Angeles Dodgers, other than that he plays second base for the team." If you can see why that is odd, you should be able to see why "there is no hard evidence that Erhard has any direct current involvement with the operations of Landmark Education, other than his consulting with Landmark" is also odd. I changed the article to simply state what his involmemnt is, without editorializing on whether there is "hard evidence" of "direct current involvement with the operations," which smacks of original resarch.
I also deleted redundant statements. -- Sparkman1 05:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
My sister just attended a Landmark Forum. I come to this article out of curiosity, and from a neutral point of view, being neither for nor against LE.
I am not surprised the neutrality of this article is under dispute.
The section on controversies is euphemistic, and the language used to discuss lawsuits filed against Landmark Education is clearly written from a biased point of view: The plaintives' claims are treated in a perjorative tone; the plaintives' legal failure is, firstly, treated as a matter of course, and secondly, assumed to be a repudiatation of the veracity of those claims. This second fact is--obviously--a non sequitur.
I am assuming that the intention of the pro-LE contributors to this article was to dissuade readers that LE has any similarities to a cult. Speaking for myself, the bias slant they (and who else could it be?) have given the article brings a negative return on that intention.
There's nothing wrong with advocating Landmark Education. But Wikipedia is NOT NOT NOT the place to do it.
Get. A. Blog.
Meanwhile, this article is screaming out for a complete rewrite. At the moment the article just oozes a pro-Landmark Education point of view and reads like something from the official website, wherever that is.
Also, I added the name of the founder Werner Erhard to the introduction and cited, under the controversies section, the accusations of sexual abuse and tax evasion (from the Wikipedia article on him).
As an article that is supposed to be aiming to be NPOV, this is atrocious! I've read many of the comments here. There are some people who are conscientiously trying very hard to produce an NPOV article, and there are people who don't understand the genre of an encyclopedic article, who don't understand NPOV, who don't understand Wikipedia's policies, who are doing nothing but get in the way of arriving at an NPOV article. With a subject this controversial, both sides should be factually presented, and the reader should be unable to determine from the article's content whether either POV is superior. That is not being done here. Editing is far too agenda-driven in promoting Landmark Education. They've got their own website to do that. This is an encyclopedia! Kat'n'Yarn 07:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page (Archive 2) covers approximately the dates between 17 November 2005 and 16 August 2006.
Archive 1 covers approximately the dates January 2004 to 16 November 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Landmark Education/Archive03. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Kat'n'Yarn 16:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
(Note: Topic "Psychotic Episodes associated with est" by L K Tucker, 25 February 2006, already located on this archive was moved to a chronological position in the archive below.)
I have moved this comment to the end of the article to preserve the chronological sequence of the discussion. DaveApter 10:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I've reorganized the sections that remained (sourced comments that were supportive or critical of landmark). I've split the text into two main sections: views supportive of LE and views critical of LE, and tried to split each piece into useful subsections. FuelWagon 15:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Margaret Singer, a Professor at UC Berkeley did mention LE in her book "Cults in Our Midst". LE sued and she issued a statement that she never held LE to be a cult. I don't know if you want this stuff in the historical record. LE also sued Cynthia Kisser for the same allegation and won a retraction. There have also been lawsuits in the Netherlands where LE won retractions. In the Netherlands, those stating LE was a cult could not come up with a single definition of a cult that LE met. Does this go in for historical record? Sm1969 21:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Here are some URLs re Margaret Singer and cults:
http://home.swbell.net/danchase/art.htm http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/msing.pdf Sm1969 03:31, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
(pasted from above) several significant points of controversy are not addressed in the present article which were moved off into the Talk page below: 1) psychological consequences versus post hoc reasoning, 2) is LE religous or not, 3) does it cause favorable results or not for customers, 4) are assistants volunteering for a for-profit being exploited or not, 5) the whole cult or not controversy (which should be separated into all the points and testimony so rendered), 6) brainwashing or powerful customer value, 7) Werner Erhard: still an influence or not.
I've broken these up into subsections below for easier discussion. please insert relevant discussions into the sections below. FuelWagon 01:58, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
The two legal cases cited in the article (Stephanie Ney) where the jury ruled in LE's favor and the Appeals court found that she could not show proximate physical causality and Been versus Weed with LE as a cross-defendent are the two main references for assertions of adverse psychological effects. Martin Lell in his book about Brainwashing could also be included in this context with Art Schreiber's rebuttal (that Martin Lell did not say he was brainwashed).
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/24/LFIF-06.pdf You could quote item 6. verbatim beginning with "From time to time,"
Here is the suicide rate in the US in 2001 (CDC 2004) at 30,622 people. LE's disclaimer says "suicide or other dangerous behaviour" and that it is less than 1/1000 of one percent. In other words, "less than 10 people per million" for suicide or other dangerous behaviour.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm
The CIA shows the US population to be 295 million for a July 2005 estimate. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html
So, the rate of "suicide or other dangerous behaviour" is less than the suicide rate in the US in general. Sm1969 05:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/050106_odds_of_dying.html Here are the lifetime odds of dying from heart disease: 1 in 5, cancer: 1 in 7, car accident 1 in 100, bee sting or snake bite: 1 in 100,000.
None of the two court cases ever held LE liable for adverse psychological effects in 850,000 customers since 1991.
I would also include a link to Post Hoc reasoning on Wikipedia for the rebuttal.
Here is a good quote from Mark Kamin (LE's spokesperson):
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark35.html Mark Kamin, Landmark's fast-talking PR head, has as many questions as I do when he calls from Houston. He's tape-recording our conversation. What of those who've reported breakdowns after participating in the Forum? Kamin says they're lying, out to make a buck. "You know there are people who say, 'You hit me from behind in your car,' even though they stopped in the middle of the freeway."
The main proponents of the interpretation that LE is antirelogious are ApologeticsIndex and its cited reference The Watchman Fellowship (www.watchman.org)
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l30.html
Here is not a direct link, but a quote from http://skepdic.com/landmark.html
Paul Derengowski, formerly of the Christian cult-watch group Watchman.org, thinks that Landmark "has theological implications." Since the training seems to emphasize that one's past and current beliefs are hindering self-growth, it is easy to see why defenders of traditional religions would fear such programs as Landmark Forum. In effect, to those who are members of traditional faiths, programs such as Landmark are saying: your religion is a hindrance to becoming your true self.
Here is a supporter from Hare Krishna: http://www.vnn.org/world/9801/02-1450/index.html
LE responded by having actual customers who are members of the clergy from various religions. First a general statement: http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=658
Is Landmark's education in the same family or genre as religion or therapy? The content, techniques, procedures, and delivery of The Landmark Forum have been carefully examined by dozens of psychiatrists, psychologists, clergy members, and other professionals. They have concluded that Landmark's programs are not psychological, cult-like, religious, or sociological in nature. In fact, many of these professionals, following their research, fully endorsed Landmark and its programs. See expert opinions or independent research.
Here are the specific statements:
Father Gregg Banaga http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=22&mid=11020&bottom=3057&siteObjectID=566
Father Eamonn O'Conner http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=22&mid=11020&bottom=37&siteObjectID=493
Sister Iris Clarke http://www.ilovepossibility.info/landmark_forum_21.htm
Father Gerry O'Rourke http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/GERRY-~1.PDF
Father Basil Pennington http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/BASIL-~1.PDF
Bishop Otis Charles, Episcopal Church http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/BISHOP~1.PDF
Rabbi Arnold Mark Belzer http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/Belzer.pdf
Sister Miriam Quinn, O.P. http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/SISTER~1.PDF
Also, from Time Magazine: Time Magazine (The Best of Est?) http://www.wernererhard.com/wernererhardtimemagazine.htm "Rabbi Yisroel Persky said he "remains unfazed by what he calls the Forum's common-sense concepts cloaked in esoteric packaging." (He did not say it offended his religion.)
http://www.thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/register.cgi/tablet-00286 Article from The Tablet (an International Catholic Weekly, requiring free registration)
The only point where my Christianity tripped up was at a session where we were asked to consider the statement, "Life is empty and meaningless". My faith made me reject the statement, but others found it liberating. I asked Angelo, a Catholic, how he understood it. "I say things dramatically in the Forum to get people to think", he said. "I cannot discover what God truly has planned for me until I let go of all the meaning I have put in place, especially as a child and young adult." Several Catholic priests and religious sisters have endorsed Landmark. The Trappist monk Basil Pennington has praised the Forum for bringing about a "full human enlivenment" which make people "more lively" in the practice of whatever faith they have.
I know of zero instances where A) a member of the clergy did the Landmark Forum and B) said it offended their religion. The examples here are Judaism and Christianity.
Here is the main attributed adverse assertion I know of: http://skepdic.com/landmark.html It is predictable that many participants in self-growth programs will attribute their sense of improvement to the programs they've taken, but much of their reasoning may be post hoc. Furthermore, their sense of improvement might not be matched by improved behavior. Just because they feel they've benefited doesn't mean they have. Research has shown that the feelings of having benefited greatly from participation in an LGAT do not correspond to beneficial changes in behavior (Michael Langone, "Large Group Awareness Training Programs," Cult Observer, v. 15, n. 1, 1998).
Here are some of the positive assertions: An overview of the independent studies: http://www.landmarkeducation.com/menu.jsp?top=25&mid=264&bottom=700
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=116&siteObjectID=150 Among the results reported by participants: One-third experienced a significant increase (of 25% or more) in their incomes after completing The Landmark Forum. Of that group, 94% said The Landmark Forum directly contributed to the increase. Seven out of 10 people said they worried less about money and became more effective in managing their finances after completing Landmark's programs. Participants found they were working fewer hours, suggesting they achieved greater balance in their lives.
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=116&siteObjectID=157 Conclusion The set of interventions in the organization produced impressive measurable results: • Safety performance improved 50% • Key benchmark costs were reduced 15-20% • Return on capital increased by 50% • Raw steel produced per employee rose 20%
Here is the one from the International Society for Performance Improvement (not on LE's web site): http://www.ispi.org/services/gotResults/2005/Landmark_Education_GotResults.pdf
Here is some quantitative data on the number of people who assist at LE per year (11,900):
http://www.ilovepossibility.info/leap.htm
LE's POV on the Assisting Program: http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=22&mid=175&bottom=239&siteObjectID=243
The French stuff is critical (where the voluntary assisting program was judged illegal by the French labor ministry). I don't have a reference for that, and it is probably in French.
(which should be separated into all the points and testimony so rendered),
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/Fowler.pdf In my opinoion, "brain washing", "mind control" or "thought reform" are very dubious concepts. There is little evidence to support that they ever take place except in situations in which extreme coercive pressure is put on a vulnerable person in circumstances of isolation, deprivation, and mistreatment such as a prisoner of war situation. The relatively brief encounters in a pleasant environment that characterize the Landmark Forum program could never effect such extreme and unwanted changes in personality and behaviour as those attributed to the various forms of "mind control".
In my opinion, the Landmark Forum does not place individuals at risk of any form of "mind control" "brainwashing" or "through control."
In my opinion, the Landmark Forum is not a cult or anything like a cult, and I do not see how any reasonable person could say that it is.
Raymond D. Fowler, Ph.D. November 30, 1999 (Past President of the American Psychological Association, speaking on his own behalf)
I thought I'd be brainwashed. But how wrong could I be... http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1106927,00.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark43.html Kamin [Landmark Education's Director of Media Relations] goes on to explain: "People don't understand what our programs are. Our programs make a difference, they're powerful. When somebody goes to something that lasts a weekend and they come back saying, 'Wow, this really made a difference in my life,' they are going to be met with a certain amount of skepticism. So somebody who is ill-informed and hasn't done their research will go, 'That must be X, Y or Z.' I think it's pretty obvious why those things happen."
http://www.metroactive.com/landmark/landmark1-9827.html For me, it's almost impossible to observe The Forum's methods without the word "brainwashing" flashing across my intellectual radar screen every 15 seconds or so. Landmark refers inquiries in this department to a letter by Forum graduate Edward Lowell, a New Jersey psychiatrist who states in no uncertain terms that Landmark does not use brainwashing techniques.
There are more such articles on Rick Ross' web site that assert "thought reform" and "mind control" and "brainwashing." Martin Lell also made that assertion in his book (The Landmark Forum: Protocoll of a Brainwashing) to which Art Schreiber gave his rebuttal.
A handful of customers of Landmark Education have publicly alleged that their experience of Landmark has led to mental illness. (See Das Forum: Protokoll einer Gehirnwäsche: Der Psycho-Konzern Landmark Education [The Forum: Account of a Brainwashing: The Psycho-Outfit Landmark Education] by Martin Lell, Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, Munich, 1997, ISBN 3423360216 - a work which Landmark Education attempted to have suppressed at its first publication).
Rebuttal: This rebuttal has two parts: 1) Mr. Lell in specific (parts "a" and "b" below [1] quoted from Art Schreiber, general counsel of Landmark Education) and 2) the assertion of causality in general. (a) Landmark Education did not bring legal action to stop the publication of the book. Rather, Landmark Education's action for injunction was to eliminate the use of the word "brainwashing" in the sub-title of the book since such statement was totally false and defamatory. At the Hearing, the Court decided that the term "brainwashing" was a matter of opinion, which I consider to be a highly questionable result. The Court therefore denied Landmark's request for an injunction and the book was allowed to be published with the full sub-title. Landmark Education never intended to stop the publication of the contents of the book. (b) Mr. Lell was not "brainwashed". As the record at the Hearing indicated, following completion of The Landmark Forum Mr. Lell did not see a doctor; was not hospitalized; did not seek or obtain medication; and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem. In fact, Mr. Lell did not even say he was brainwashed; apparently his parents, after his speaking with them following The Landmark Forum, stated they thought "he sounded like someone who was brainwashed". Given Mr. Lell was not in fact brainwashed, Landmark Education brought its action to seek the injunction against the use of such word in the sub-title of the book.
here's a draft:
After taking the Landmark Forum, one customer, Martin Lell, wrote a book titled Das Forum: Protokoll einer Gehirnwäsche: Der Psycho-Konzern Landmark Education [The Forum: Account of a Brainwashing: The Psycho-Outfit Landmark Education], Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, Munich, 1997, ISBN 3423360216. Landmark sued to have the word "brainwashing" removed from the sub-title. During the hearing, Lell stated that following completion of The Landmark Forum, he did not see a doctor, was not hospitalized, did not seek or obtain medication, and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem. The court decided that "brainwashing" was a matter of opinion and allowed the sub-title to remain.
Traci Hukill, a reporter for Metroactive, participated in the Landmark Forum and wrote [1]
For me, it's almost impossible to observe The Forum's methods without the word "brainwashing" flashing across my intellectual radar screen every 15 seconds or so. Landmark refers inquiries in this department to a letter by Forum graduate Edward Lowell, a New Jersey psychiatrist who states in no uncertain terms that Landmark does not use brainwashing techniques.
Raymond Fowler, a psychologist, was requested by Landmark Education to evaluate the effectiveness, safety, and appropriateness of the procedures in the Landmark Forum in 1999. Fowler reported [2]
I saw nothing in the Landmark Forum I attended to suggest that it would be harmful to any participant. ... the Landmark Forum is nothing like psychotherapy ... has none of the characteristics typical of a cult ... does not place individuals at risk of any form of “mind control” “brainwashing” or “thought control.”
thoughts? FuelWagon 18:21, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, actually, there were some other pieces already existing in the current "brainwashing" section, so I attempted to roll the changes into the actual article alongside the stuff that was already there. FuelWagon 18:31, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Fowler was the head of the APA while offering a personal report on a form of training that had been previously investigated by the APA. He offered no evidence of anything he said, did not disclose whether he was paid for his endorsement and did not mention the concerns of other academics. His report reads like a sycophantic, paid for endorsement rather than anything scientific. Dr John Hunter explains Lifton's criteria for thought reform in detail and then, in detail, explains how every condition is employed in the Landmark Forum. Rather than outsourcing one's thinking to a dubious endorsement by an authority figure (who has no expertise in thought reform), it seems that one should compare the explicit conditions of thought reform as stated by Lifton to the conditions of the Landmark Forum. Jagter80 ( talk) 11:13, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=658
What is Landmark Education's relationship with Werner Erhard? For 15 years, Landmark Education has developed leading edge programs in the area of personal training & development, and Landmark's programs are based on research and ideas originally developed by Werner Erhard. Landmark respects and appreciates the enormous contribution of Mr. Erhard's ideas. Mr. Erhard has no financial interest, ownership, or management role in Landmark Education.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark79.html Kamin says that Erhard has nothing to do with the organisation now and that his "technology" has been developed and modified by Landmark staff. Kamin denies that Erhard receives any income from Landmark, but he confirms that Erhard's younger brother Harry is Landmark's CEO.
Here is the only sourced assertion I know of asserting otherwise: http://www.wernererhard.com/wernererhardtimemagazine.htm Landmark critic Walter Plywaski, a Colorado electronics engineer who took on the company after his daughter ran up a $3,000 tab on courses, thinks Erhard is still pulling the strings. Says he: "Erhard is like the Cheshire Cat. He has gone away, but the smile is there, hanging over everything."
(There are no tests one could perform to determine whether the smile of a Cheshire Cat is hanging over everything, but people at LE do smile a lot. :) )
Yes, I think you could add the date next to each. The Time article is from 1997 or 1998.
Whether Erhard is considered a direct influence today or not, he as well as EST should be included in the article (or at least a link should be included in the bottom of the article) because, after all, Landmark is an offshoot of EST.
Not to mention that this article seems more like a "coverup" of the various negative aspects of EST/Landmark by its followers. I think a little more effort could be taken to neutralize this article. If you have to counter the negative arguments, then the "positive" arguments ought to be countered as well.
Or, in another interpretation, the negative arguments are, for the most part, spin and spending even as much print space as we have hopelessly skews the article to the negative.
On Werner: There is no cover-up about this either. I can remeber a time in Landamrk where people were unsure of talking about Werner and were unsure of how to reference it so as a matter of practical policy he was not brought up. This ended up causing confusion amongst those people who never met the guy and knew nothing about him. That time is over- Werner is now openly talked about. Harry, his brother, will even mention conversations he had with him and on occassion Werner will visit Landamrk leader trainings. It is a normal, friendly relationship consistent with the fact that he founded a lot of the distinctions the current technology of Landamrk is based on.
I have no idea what the fiscal relationship is between Werner and LE but I know it is none of our business and there is no conspiracy about it either. Do you know the cleaner down the street's fiscal relationship with his brother who founded the clenaing shop twenty years ago? No? Oh my god- it must be a conspiracy!!
Sorry for the sarcasm- I think all this stuff about Werner is much ado about nothing. The only problem is he was a dramatic figure who was in the news a lot and a lot of things were said about him. Some of those things turned out to be baseless- like the tax fraud accusations and the abusing his daughters things (although I agree with whoever said that there is something wrong in a family when people are even willing to be coerced by money or fame to make accusations like that!). Some turned out to be true (he did leave his wife and run away from his family to California with another woman, he did make good money for the licenses on the WE&A technology). Some are still unresolved: I have no idea if Scientology really has a "black list" and put him on it (although what happened to him around 1990 has all the earmarks of a smear campaign).
Overall- just another human being. Not the messiah, not a cult leader, just a really smart, flawed guy who was committed to something and really started something interesting, powerful, and wih a potential to make a big difference in the world, yet still racked by the flaws, concerns , and issues all human institutions are saddled with. I think we can safely slack off on the drama about it.
- Alex Jackl 15:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
This is another area of controversy about LE. Here is part of LE's POV:
An eight-page article in the March 2001 edition of the journal Contemporary Philosophy hosted at the University of Colorado at Boulder and co-authored by Professor Steven McCarl and by Landmark Education Business Development CEO Steve Zaffron discusses philosophy and the Landmark Forum under the title "The Promise of Philosophy and the Landmark Forum". (Readers interested in a detailed discussion from Landmark Education's point of view can read this article - one of the few written articles discussing course content of Landmark Education (aside from the course syllabus - one of Landmark Education's marketing documents.)
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=654 Educational Methodology Landmark Education's methodology and the results it has produced make Landmark a leader and innovator in the field of training and development. Landmark's technology is drawn from a rich tradition of thinking and research that spans a number of disciplines, from philosophy to linguistics to Zen. Based on a methodology and ideas originally developed by Werner Erhard, Landmark has evolved its unique educational methodology through years of continuous research and development.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4819050-102285,00.html Over the next three days, we are educated in a mix of philosophies, psychology and religious theories, illustrated by readings from books, plays and one detailed description of the entire plot of Citizen Kane. Including the ending. The theories expounded cherry pick ideas from existential philosophy and motivational psychology. They take in aspects of Maxwell Maltz's psycho-cybernetics, Zen Buddhism, Alan Watts and Freud. Shadows of Abraham Maslow, Hinduism, Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale and P.T. Barnum flit over the proceedings.
Adverse POV: (Heidegger for Fun and Profit, 1990) http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/gottlieb.htm One main idea behind the Forum is a thesis that is often thought to be Heidegger's, though it in fact owes more to his pupil, Hans-Georg Gadamer. Mr. Gadamer's idea is that people derive their identities from stories they tell about themselves. The Forum's aim is to expose these stories by inducing existentialist anxiety, and then to enable people to construct more empowering stories, which transform them. Sounds easy. It certainly empowers Forum adepts to adopt a great deal of jargon and go off in search of more people to transform. ... Those who take the Forum phenomenon seriously might see it as an attempt to overthrow the democracy of reason: you cannot debate the Forum, you just start talking its language or you don't. It is replete with the ironies of most minor cults: to open up the possibilities in your own life, you have to be intellectually bombarded by somebody else; to free yourself from the categories of everyday language, you have to be imprisoned in a new jargon that few other people speak.
I think all the sourced information for and against is now in the article (or at least a majority of it is.) so I did a reorganization of the article to re-interleave the various POV's by topic. So now, a topic like "results" will contain critical views about results as well as favorable views. I think this reads better. FuelWagon 20:10, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Pedant17,
User FuelWagon is an administrator and has been working with us on eliminating unsourced claims, and where controversy exists, sourcing the various PRO/CON and other claims to exactly who said them.
Several facets of your most recent edit (by differencing against the previous version) are in direct violation of this:
1) This article provides detailed discussion - from Landmark Education's point of view - one of the few written articles which takes the course content of Landmark Education seriously ... [This is completely unsourced.]
2) The statement about Singer being financially exhausted. LE never pursued the case to a financial judgement; she retracted at the time of the deposition. [This is completely unsourced.]
3) Other horror-tales... [Google Groups are not valid sources for Wikipedia.]
4) The ApologeticsIndex was under the theme "religion" and we were focusing solely on evidence pertaining to religion in that section. [This is vandalistic structural destruction.]
5) The "Sources" section content you introduced most likely will have to go under the Wiki article for "est" and it will have to be attributed there.
6) The claims regarding hypnotism and the remarks thereunder are completely unsourced.
7) The notation that LE "responds to allegations ... by tangentially asserting that many clergy have attended the Landmark Forum". All of the content in that section is directly sourced and was completely within NPOV guidelines. With Father Banaga, for example, you can even go to Adamson University and see that he is, in fact, the President of Adamson University.
8) The conversion of "Management" to "Prominent Landmarkers" borders on vandalism.
You have done several such large "bad faith" edits in the past: A) 11:37, 12 October 2005 Pedant17 B) 12:28, 21 September 2005 Pedant17 C) 11:53, 3 September 2005 Pedant17 D) 09:37, 2 August 2005 Pedant17
We are trying to source all claims at this point and write the PRO and CON attributing the statement to who actually said it, which must be referenced (journal article, LE statement, LE web site, court case, case study), not a Google group. The remedy for unreferenced claims is to move them to the Talk page or strike them. The large edits that you do that manifest the infractions indicated above will be reverted outright. While I am a supporter of LE, I went out and found the adverse statements and sourced them. FuelWagon (a Wikipedia administrator or respected participant) wrote the actual text that was reintroduced into the article. Some of your edit I agree with and there are still unsourced statements in the article and we will remove them. There are statements favorable to LE that are unsourced that we will either source or remove. There is analogous adverse commentary that we will also remove where it is unsourced. What you did tonight and have done numerous times in the past is intolerable and will be reverted outright. Sm1969 06:18, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
The detection of vandalism came when you suddenly rearranged a section that was completely within NPOV.
The accusation of bad faith came from a notion in contract law that you knew what you were doing was in violation of NPOV.
Here is my background in specific: 1) I have done just about every LE program available since 1993; 2) I have assisted a lot over the years (but not a lot currently in the center); 3) I agree with some of the criticism to various degrees and it definitely needs to be included; 4) My educational background also includes an MBA in Marketing/Information Systems design, which includes a survey of law courses (tort law, contract law, tax law, etc.) [I will use the tort law stuff to address your point #2], 5) as well as a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering/Computer Science and Linguistics, specifically German; I read and write German fluently, and I have read much of the German documents and provided corrections/refutations to your posts in the past regarding the Berlin Senate report. From German, I can take good guesses at Dutch, Danish and Swedish, particularly when assisted with the automated translators on the Internet. DaveApter and I have asked for your background re LE a few times now so that we have a common frame of reference as to what constitutes evidence and how conclusions are being drawn. I reside in California. With that in mind:
Here is a diff of the edit you made which I assert broke NPOV: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Landmark_Education&diff=28797825&oldid=28697908
AFTER PEDANT17's EDIT Landmark Education sued Margaret Singer, a UC Berkeley professor and author of Cults in Our Midst (published in 1995) for defamation. Singer mentioned Landmark Education in her book but did not make it clear if she labelled Landmark Education as a cult or not. Following the litigation, a financially-exhausted Singer posted a retraction stating that she did not intend to call Landmark a cult, and that nor did she consider it a cult. [6]
BEFORE PEDANT17's EDIT Landmark Education sued Margaret Singer, a UC Berkeley professor and author of Cults in Our Midst (published in 1995) for defamation. Singer mentioned Landmark Education in her book but wasn't clear if she was calling Landmark Education a cult or not. Singer posted a retraction stating that she did not intend to call Landmark a cult nor did she consider it a cult. [22]
You made a really small change adding "financially-exhausted Singer" implying that her motive for retracting was that she did not have the money to defend herself. There are numerous articles that I can refer to in the press that imply Landmark Education, as this big, bad organization goes around quashing criticism with the threat of lawsuits. It's quite stereotypical to think, "A big corporation is using its money to step on the little guy." The reality is quite simple: She, as a UC Berkeley Professor and recognized expert (in academia) in the field of cults could have easily gotten pro bono legal representation IF her position were defensible. What is not in this Wikipedia article right now is a prior case Landmark Education filed in 1994 (I think) against SELF Magazine (Conde Nast Publications) in which Landmark Education established through a defamation lawsuit against SELF that the use of the word "cult" is A) a question of fact that can be proven TRUE or FALSE (a question of triable fact) and B) derogatory. She would have faced the jury which would have decided the question and her reputation would have been shattered.
The Margaret Singer retraction was a ***HUGE*** deal to Landmark Education. Without that, anyone in the press or in books could have called Landmark Education a cult. That was the DEATH PENALTY to the use of the written word "cult" in written publications (the Internet excepted, in certain situations) and the DEATH PENALTY to spoken word "Cult" (the tort of slander) in the United States. Go back and read the Margaret Singer retraction in that context. http://www.landmarkeducation.com/uploaded_files/694/msing.pdf
REQUEST-4: Do you agree that newsgroups in particular and Usenet is specific is barred for this very reason? This is a yes/no question, but feel free to add a textual explanation.
REQUEST-5: If you do the "bold" editing, it should not break NPOV. Things that are sourced must remain. Things that are not sourced must be brought to the Talk page and those with opposing views time to find sources to substantiate. The word "bold" can all too easily break NPOV.
Hi Pedant17
I don't know what to make of your contributions to this article. You repeatedly claim to be trying to restore a NPOV, but all your edits are written from an extreme anti-Landmark POV. Much of what you write is simply your own opinion and has no place in an encyclopedia. Much else is other unauthorative unsourced opinion. How recently have you reviewed the NPOV policy to see what it actually says? Also the policies relating to 'Citation of Sources' and 'Words to Avoid'? DaveApter 11:16, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Just to clarify one thing, I'm not an admin. I happen to be extremely familiar with NPOV policy and highly controversial wikipedia articles. I haven't combed through the edit by Pendant, but it contained some minor tweaks that I would agree with, as well as containing some major rewrites that I would say breaks NPOV. The minor tweaks were some rare insertions of attribution, such that a sentence would be changed from "The Forum provides blah" to "Landmark Education states that the Forum provides blah." For the most part, it seemed clear to me that it was Landmark Education that was the source, but I don't have a problem with making the reference more direct.
Ok, it was originally the edits, especially those of Pedant17, that, I believe, had DaveApter go looking for outside assistance. Sometimes Pedant17 adds things which are consistent with NPOV, but very frequently, as in the edits I referred to, they are A) unsourced, B) his personal opinions (and, yes, others do hold those opinions as well, but that is not the point), C) twisting of statements that are, in fact, sourced.
We still have many more controversial points to add about LE. The stuff that we put in the archive is all stuff people (journalists mostly) have written about LE (both pro/con), so we will have to source it and get it in there. I thinking about this, I think the final article structure should evolve to something that reflects two major controversies: 1) What is it (education or something else, a long list of items to consider) and 2) what does it cause (favorable results per the studies, nothing per certain criticism or "psychological damage" as has also been asserted in rare cases). Sm1969 16:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
So, I read the heidigger for fun and profit article, and I'm not sure how relevant it is. Most of the article is criticizing heidigger for being a nazi and completely un-understandable. The tail end mentions some folks who used Heidigger to get rich, the last couple paragraphs talk about how Werner Erhardt used Heidigger to create EST, and how it is completely un-understandable. The last paragraph or so then says that EST became the forum in 1990. Generally, I don't like articles that go out of their way to satisfy Godwin's law, and whether Heidigger was a nazi or not seems quite irrelevant to whether or not Landmark is good or bad. It seems to be a wildly loose application of "guilt by someone else's association". Landmark came from Est, est came from heidigger, heidigger was a nazi, tehrefore landmark is a nazi, or at least very bad. I'm not sure how to include this in the article without introducing a wildly biased view. thoughts? FuelWagon 15:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added a short paragraph to the section under cult, brainwashing, etc, since that seems to be the closest section to talk about content. thoughts? FuelWagon 20:52, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the article is in pretty good shape as far as making sure all claims and criticisms are sourced. I was thinking that maybe we could review the requirements for qualifying for Featured Article status, make sure the article meets those requirements, and then when we think it is ready, nominate the article for Featured Article status. When the Terri Schiavo article was nominated, they wanted all the URL's in footnote format. I'm not sure if that's a hard requirement or not, but it's one thing to look into. I think the content is in good shape, we just may need to do some formatting stuff, and then it would be ready for nomination. Any thoughts? Anyone more familiar with Featured Article requirements? FuelWagon 18:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I think there is a lot more content to go and adding of some pictures before we go for Featured Article status. There is still much controversy from the old archives that we did not put into the current article. We need to go back and source the claims. For content, I would also like to add quantitative participation data and revenue data over time, which we have a available. Numerous pictures could be added. Sm1969 22:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
How do we add tables to an article?
I would like to add tables for the following:
A) annual revenue and cumulative participation data points B) customer lawsuits (3) (party, issue, resolution) C) outbound lawsuits and retractions
maybe also: D) levels of causality (from highest to lowest) 1) scientific study (rigourously monitored, placebo controlled, double-blind clinical trials) 2) case studies 3) jury findings 4) surveys (non-causal) 5) journalist articles
We don't yet have a lot of raw data, but we can add probably about five "cumulative participation data points" and "five revenue data points." What these numbers point out, more than anything else, is that the company is growing, despite all its critics.
I would like to have the lawsuits occur in some sort of context, since you would not report lawsuits for the average company. With 850,000 cumulative participants, the rate of KNOWN lawsuits for course operations is 1 in every 425,000. (There may be more we don't know about, but I think not since I have done a lot of reading.) (The sexual harrassment lawsuit was not related to the course itself.)
A few pictures I would add: one of the Landmark Forum from the press kit: 1) http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=659&bottom=1787
2) Sister Iris Clarke as a participant in Landmark Education's Assisting Program http://www.ilovepossibility.info/image/landmark_manila/10710.jpg
(We have not yet covered the Assisting Program as a point of controversy.)
3) A GIF graph of the participation data points that we have. Sm1969 16:35, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, on second thought, I'm not sure I would include participation data points under the Rosenberg quote, but they might well go at the top under the factual section. LE continually releases these into the press. There are two URLs, one for LE's customers in general and one for the Landmark Forum. The general customer counts include (my assumption) participation in the business seminars through LEBD (Landmark Educaiton Business Development).
http://www.landmarkeducation.com/menu.jsp?top=21&mid=80&bottom=124 (More than 800,000 have taken the Landmark Forum.) http://www.landmarkeducation.com/display_content.jsp?top=26&mid=654&bottom=665 (To date, over 850,000 people have participated in Landmark's programs.)
Also, we do have a quote about participation in the SELP: Landmark Education designed the Self Expression and Leadership Program, where participants are empowered to provide leadership in their communities and to create projects that make a difference. To date, over 30,000 community projects have been created from participants in this course. (Same page as last URL.)
Here is the quote: It is inaccurate to state that former Forum participants pressed charges against Landmark Education because of psychological consequences they suffered from The Landmark Forum. Out of more than 350,000 people who have participated in The Landmark Forum around the world, there has been only 1 person who filed a lawsuit. While the article describes the claims in that lawsuit, the writer failed to inform your readers that there was a trial in that lawsuit and after reviewing all of the evidence, the United States District Court rejected Mrs. Ney's claims and ruled that The Forum did not cause her emotional problems. The Court issued its decision in favor of Landmark Education and The Forum and such decision was upheld by the United States Court of Appeals..
I have requested permission to use the picture from LE. I await their response. Sm1969 00:36, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
What criteria are there for including "links" in the "links" section at the bottom of the article? Some links are to sites that have defamatory and discredited allegations. Others are to personal web sites. Can any of these be struck?
I believe this is correct, but it was a default judgement because Werner did not appear. When there was a trial, the courts found no physical causality to the program in which she participated (which is the relevant issue for the LE article). You can move this to the Werner Erhard page though and mark it as a default judgement for failure to appear. (On the contrary, in the Stephanie Ney case the court ordered Werner Erhard to pay more that $500,000 in damages for "mental injuries" (Pressman, 1993: 262).)
This article is so clearly NPOV, with a large portion having been written and/or conveniently edited by someone who is clearly affiliated with Landmark. A lot of it sounds more like an advertisement or justification than an encyclopedia worthy entry
What specifically are you objecting to? Much of what is here today went through an process of getting outside assistance from someone with no affiliation with LE and a very large section of it has now been sourced. NPOV is, perhaps, not what you think it is. NPOV, per the Wikipedia definition, is citing all sources of significant opinion and attributing them. We have sourced Landmark Education's opinion and the opposing opinions in many instances. If you can find better articulations of the opposing opinions, so long as they have a certain level of frequency, you should update them (with referenceable sources). Sm1969 10:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I looked at this, too, and decided against including it. The reason to include it is that it is an opposing point of view, both within NPOV guideliness and substantiated. However, if you followed the full Been versus Weed cross defedent Landmark Education case, you will see that Weed's own lawyer (Dr. Grundy) at the sanity hearing testified that the cause was a mental defect (not Landmark Education or the Landmark Advanced Course). Thus, at a civil trial, Weed would have his own lawyer's testimony from the sanity hearing be used against him. The fact that his own laywer and that of the US government would be used against Weed, along with zero instances of 250,000+ customers of the Advanced Course having similar instances make this a theory of such little import that it does not belong in an encyclopedia. If Weed's civil case attorney (Gaylon Hayes) were willing to take the case on contingency, he would simply move ahead. Landmark could always force depositions from around the world--the court would force a trial if it thought it necessary.
In Dr. Grundy's opinion, Weed's brief psychotic disorder was caused by a mental defect. The exact nature of the defect, however, is unknown. (Id. at 29, 32) Dr. Grundy testified that none of the tests he relied upon could predict whether Weed will experience another onset of symptoms. (Id. at 35) He also testified that, according to the DSM-IV, recurrence of a brief psychotic disorder is rare.
In this newspaper article, the lawyer for the letter carrier's family says that he withdrew the case (in June 2005) because he plans to refile no more than a year later, adding that Landmark was forcing him to depose witnesses from around the world.
If Gaylon Hayes does, in fact, refile, then I would add that as pending litigation.
Ok, here we go again. Some of the stuff you put in is probably legitimate.
1) I think the sections you marked "need references" are generally, truly in need of references. There I agree with you.
2) You appear to be sourcing most items now which is really good.
3) Sourcing is just the beginning.
As a matter of policy, Wikipedia distinguishes three levels (I'll have to find a URL to the official policy page): A) Majority opinions B) Minority, but significant opinions C) Insignificant opinions, which do not belong in an encyclopedia.
The operative tests mainly involve 1) testability in some sense and 2) the ease of finding prominent supporters. Your edits are so large I can't stand editing them in one shot. I recently obtained the Pressman book from some wholesaler. It was purchased from the Ramsey County library (wherever that is) by the wholesaler and then sold to me by Amazon. The book undoubtedly had a very low number of copies printed, even with such an inflammatory title.
Then you look at the sources. Again, stuff regarding est belongs on the "est" page.
Trying to pin two courses on Scientology that Werner did pre-1970 is an insignificant opinion, I assert, for you probably would have grave difficulty finding say three items distinctly and derivationally unique to Scientology and Landmark Education.
Make small edits and we'll discuss on a case by case basis regarding their frequency, testability and sourcing. Sm1969
However, in the Stephanie Ney case the court did order Werner Erhard (in absentia) in a default judgement to pay more that $500,000 in damages for "mental injuries" (Pressman, 1993: 262).)
Again, had Werner Erhard contested this, he would have won. Even your Pressman book notes this. Instead, Werner left the country. You can certainly put this on the Werner Erhard page, but even there you should not that the jury finding of fact was against the "intentional infliction of emotional distress" (the legal tort for mental injuries).
This also pre-dates Landmark. You can put it on the Werner Erhard web page, but the term "cult" has been found to be "subject to concrete meaning in the field of psychology and, as such, is a triable question of fact, capable of being proven true or false." The 1989 source does not mention Landmark Education because it pre-dates LE. Sm1969 15:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Eileen Barker, emeritus sociologist of religion at the London School of Economic, makes a relevant point on the popular versus the technical conception of what might constitute a cult. Discussing Landmark Education's est predecessor and writing just before the transition to Landmark Education, she mentions "... movements which do not fall under the definition of religion used by the Institute [for the study of American Religion], but which are sometimes called 'cults'. Examples would be est, Primal Therapy or Rebirthing." (Barker, 1989: 149)
I am moving to disqualify both of these sources. Neither one is obtainable--neither the Lell book nor the Samways book--either from the publisher or the aftermarket. I looked on the web site of Deutscher Taschenbuchverlag and could not even find Lell, his book or the ISBN number. The is the same for Samways. You (Pedant) have intentionally qouted things out of context before. Samways further states that she has not done the Landmark Forum.
Erhard writes the foreword to Luke Rhinehart's book "The book of est". He praises Rhinehart and says he loved the book and supports Rhinehart totally. In the book, Rhinehart explicitly states that Erhard immersed himself in Scientology before forming est. Case closed. Jagter80 ( talk) 11:18, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
Test Jagter80 ( talk) 11:20, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
As noted in the hearing, Martin Lell himself did not say that he was brainwashed (or take any actions such as seeking help). For this "expert" to then say that (and conveniently omit that he contradicts himself about brainwashing) makes this an insignficant opinion. Sm1969 15:47, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
In the introduction to Lell's book, the writer and Diplompsychologin Bärbel Schwertfeger states:
(a) Landmark Education did not bring legal action to stop the publication of the book. Rather, Landmark Education's action for injunction was to eliminate the use of the word "brainwashing" in the sub-title of the book since such statement was totally false and defamatory. At the Hearing, the Court decided that the term "brainwashing" was a matter of opinion, which I consider to be a highly questionable result. The Court therefore denied Landmark's request for an injunction and the book was allowed to be published with the full sub-title. Landmark Education never intended to stop the publication of the contents of the book.
(1) Mr. Lell was not "brainwashed". As the record at the Hearing indicated, following completion of The Landmark Forum Mr. Lell did not see a doctor; was not hospitalized; did not seek or obtain medication; and was not diagnosed by a medical professional as being brainwashed or having any mental problem. In fact, Mr. Lell did not even say he was brainwashed; apparently his parents, after his speaking with them following The Landmark Forum, stated they thought "he sounded like someone who was brainwashed". Given Mr. Lell was not in fact brainwashed, Landmark Education brought its action to seek the injunction against the use of such word in the sub-title of the book.
(c) In an interview on June 15, 1997 on SWF TV in Germany, Mr. Lell stated that Landmark Education and The Landmark Forum were not a sect or psycho-group and Landmark Education has no connection to Scientology. Sm1969 09:53, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
- Pedant17 01:25, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/misc/Factnet/SINGER.TXT
Her [Margaret Singer's] credentials, however, have been discredited by her own profession: The American Psychological Association found her work to lack scientific merit. Several courts have forbidden Singer to testify as an "expert witness" because, as one court stated, "her coercive persuasion theory did not represent a meaningful scientific concept." United States vs Steven Fishman. The APA formally dismissed Singer's ideas in the 1980s after she and her AFF associates had formed a task force within the APA on "deceptive and indirect methods of persuasion and control". This task force submitted its report to the Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology of the APA. The task force's report was rejected by the Board in May of 1987. The APA stated that "In general, the report lacks the scientific rigor and evenhanded critical approach needed for APA imprimatur." The APA Board, which consulted two independent experts in arriving at their conclusion, warned the task force members not to imply that the APA in any way supported the positions they had put forward. Singer is an advisory board member of Cult Awareness Network (CAN) and American Family Foundation (AFF), both of which rely on her theories to cover their attacks on new religions with a veneer of "science." But the overwhelming majority of experts and scholars have also found Singer's "brainwashing" ideas to be wholly unscientific. They share the view of Professor Harvey Cox, Professor of Divinity at Harvard University, that "The term 'brainwashing' has no respectable standing in scientific or psychiatric circles, and is used almost entirely to describe a process by which somebody has arrived at convictions that I do not agree with." (John T. Biermans: The Odyssey of New Religions Today). Prior to its rejection of Singer's report, the APA had already endorsed a position contrary to Singer's "coercive persuasion" theory in an amicus brief before the California Supreme Court in Molko v. Holy Spirit Association (the Unification Church).
This is what I am striking because we now have two data points: 1) Singer's retraction, 2) Singer's repudiation by her own profession and 3) Landmark Education's settling for no money. Clearly, Landmark just wanted to prove a point. Her position is of such a minority that it does not belong in an encyclopedia.
Scioscia (2000) reports:
word. I'll probably need to post the Rick Ross court documents which have an extensive discussion on "cult."
says: "don't say "X is a cult", say "so and so has called X a 'cult' because...". - Pedant17 04:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Investigations into the background in which Landmark Education originated have documented links at that stage to Scientology (Pressman, 1993: 25-31).
Even here, most of the 25-31 is about Hubbard and Erhard. Can you name three practices from Scientology that are adopted from Scientology into Landmark Education anywhere that are unique to Scientology? That's why I assert this is a rare opinion, not worthy of an encyclopedia. Sm1969 16:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I took this out, because, though referenced, Rick Ross fails to post Landmark Education's response to the complaint, even though he has access to it. David Grill was not prosecuted for any crime and if he were, Rick Ross surely would have included the prosecution's statements and convictions. "with a foreign object and anally." (text of complaint)
Your point that "with a foreign object and anally" is inflammatory is fair enough. However, I replace the link to the complaint. While I do not know all of Landmark's responses were to the complaint, I do know one, and it is spelled out in the article: Landmark settled. Sm1969 07:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC) There can be many reasons for settling, all of which center on return on investment, i.e., that LE does not want to take the expense (or risk of a trial).
I don't see why a lack of criminal prosecution is a persuasive reason to take down the link. The Dallas County District Attorney can have many reasons for not prosecuting a crime - only one of which is that the crime did not happen.
On the other hand, Tracy Neff and her lawyer both subjected themseleves to possible civil liability if this complaint were untrue.
Moreover, her lawyer subjected herself to disbarment and loss of her livelihood if the complaint were untrue. See malicious prosecution. These facts, and the fact that Landmark settled instead of fought the complaint are strong indicators of reliability. This warrants placing a link to the complaint.
Moreover, there is no harm to the neutrality of the article in placing a link. The text of the article remains completely neutral. The text states Neff alleged sexual assault, and that Landmark settled. This is undeniably true. Those who follow the link know that they are leaving a neutral encyclopedia and going to a primary source from a non-netural party. They are free to weigh the credibility of that source, using their own judgment. Requiring a link to a specific response by Landmark when none is available needlessy denies readers access to relevant information. More importantly, it insults their intelligence.
I will, however, search for a specific response and post it if found.
I revised the entry to make it clear what is being quoted. The quotes are accurate, and in context.
This is not inflammatory in that it accurately reflects the complaint. The purpose here is to reflect complaints against Landmark.
The fact that the alleged circumstances were, as the plaintiff herself indicates, outrageous is not a reason to shield the public from the fact that Landmark was sued for its alleged negligence leading to this allegedly outrageous result.
DaveApter 10:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This is a rather obscure bit of research. It is substantiated, but probably not meeting the thresshold requirements of NPOV (rare opinions that are of such insignificance that they do not belong in an encyclopedia). For now, the only part I will redact is the conclusion (which is definitely original research) that some critics use the web site registrations to question the relationship between LE and Werner Erhard. I may redact more later on the grounds above.
The current description of the Rick Ross suit only tells Landmark's side of the story. Also, it contains too much trivial information. It tells us when Landmark moved to dismiss its suit and also when that motion succeeded. Further, it has a lot of legal jargon. Therefore, I propose the following revision (with links to be inserted later). I welcome any suggestions for improving it before I post it.
"In June 2004, Landmark Education filed a $1 million lawsuit against the Rick A. Ross Institute, claiming that comments on an online bulletin board falsely disparaged Landmark Education. According to Landmark’s expert witness, forensic linguist Dr. Gerald McMenamin, Rick Ross authored many of the disparaging statements that were presented as anonymous third-party postings.
In December 2005, after a New Jersey court decided that online bulletin board operators cannot be liable for third-party postings (Donato v. Moldow), Landmark Education withdrew its suit against the Rick Ross Institute. Landmark Education claims it withdrew the suit because the Donato decision barred its suit. (Landmark Press Release)
Noting that the Donato decision only affected a small portion of its suit, Rick Ross claims Landmark Education withdrew the suit because it feared further discovery of its own records. Rick Ross claims that Landmark’s motivation for the suit was to discover the names of anonymous posters and then sue them. (Rick Ross Press Release)."
The article formerly stated a jury had found Landmark did not cause Ney's injuries. None of the cited references supports this. Moreover, the appeals court decision says the emotional injury claim was dismissed on summary judgment. Summary judgment means a judge dismissed a claim without giving it to the jury. Thus, not only is the article's former claim not supported by any authority, the appeals court decision is directly contrary.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~anco/mental/randr/robhow.htm
The article also formerly stated that the appeals court affirmed a finding that Landmark did not cause Ney's injuries. That is also misleading. Here is the appellate court's discussion of causation:
The only interpretation I can see that makes sense is that the court of appeals found (1) Ney had not shown Landmark's "professional negligence" had caused her injuries, but (2) her participation in the Forum "might have led in part" to her psychotic reaction. The previous language that the appeals court found the Landmark Forum as an absolute matter did not cause Ney's injuries is inconsistent with the court's own language.
I have not been able to verify the accuracy of Landmark's statement that the district court found no causation, but I have left that in.
Re: Neff
All I can find about the case is the Phoenix New Times article. We could use that source to add in something like "Neff's lawyer said the settlement compensated her for her injuries. Art Schreiber, general counsel for Landmark, says the settlement was not substantial." Would you be happy with this? Schreiber's comment that the award was not substantial is about as close as you can get to saying Landmark thought the suit was frivilous without actually saying it. Article
You said:
I agree that the jury never had to speak to anything. If you think what we know now is more favorable than when we started, I am happy for you.
You said:
I agree. As the quoted text from the court of appeals said, to paraphrase, the Forum may have caused in part her psychotic reaction.
You said:
Just about - except for the 4th Circuit saying the Forum might have caused a psychotic reaction. ODB
I struck the sentence on successor liabilty. In this part of the article, the only pertinent part of the case is whether Landmark caused a psychotic reaction. That is why the suit is included in this list. The successor liability is related only to the default judgment, which isn't otherwise discussed.
Successor liability is relevant to the Werner Erhard discussion. That part, quite rightly, talks about the successor liability aspect of the Ney case. There is no need to repeat it here. ODB
Time and again you have come back to this article and made the same or similar sets of widespread edits. Although claiming that your edits restore a NPOV, I would say that they consistently have a thrust and an intention of portraying Landmark in the worst possible light, often using subtly disparaging sentence constructions and drawing in questionable factual assertions and marginal opinions from many dubious sources.
One small example of your persistent attempts to compromise the neutrality of the article is your repeated re-naming of the section 'Generally Critical Opinions of Landmark Education' to 'Varied Opinions of Landmark Education'. Why would you want to do that, except to mislead readers into thinking that a set of references which are in fact consistently negative (and in most cases anonymous, ill-informed, unsourced, and/or deliberately malicious) might represent a broad spectrum of opinion?
Your edits are focussed on making the maximum exposure of every incident, rumour or opinion which casts Landmark in a bad light, and casting doubt on any statement which supports it. Although you claim to have made some sort of extented study of Landmark Education, you have repeatedly refused invitations on this discussion page to share the nature of your experiences, or declare your own opinions on the subject. You have never claimed to have actually taken any of Landmark's courses, and nothing you say suggests that you have any first-hand experience of them. Clearly you have read widely, but you show a strong disposition to take all negative sources at face value whilst holding instinctive reservations about anything supportive, however respected the source.
The impression that you seem to be keen for the article to convey is that there is serious doubt on the question of whether Landmark courses deliver useful results, and significant evidence that various forms of harm or exploitation occur. Both of these opinons are in fact held by some commentators, and it is therefore appropriate to report the fact. However the coverage already given to these minority views is vastly out of proportion to the number of people holding them, their credentials, and the quality of the research done to support them.
The opinion surveys that have been carried out conclude that well over 90% of participants report dramatic tangible improvements in their lives resulting from Landmark's courses and satisfaction with the content, the conduct and the value. I have no hesitation in taking these figures as genuine and representative because they concur entirely with my own subjective assessments of the response of customers to courses that I have taken, or attended as a guest, or assisted on. You however, want to insert qualifying phrases which cast doubt on the reliability of these surveys - but without giving any indication of what your own estimates might be, or what is your evidence for believing the surveys to be flawed.
In other words the opinions break down as follows: Out of around 850,000 customers, there are probably about 800,000 who are highly satisfied; on the other hand there are about half a dozen who have publicly and accountably gone on the record claiming to have been damaged in some way (and in none of those cases has the accusation been upheld). To add to that there perhaps are a few hundred dissatisfied customers complaining (usually anonymously) on internet message boards (quite frequently admitting, apparently with pride, that they did not do the course in full, or did not do the assignments, or did not keep the promises they made as a condition of their participation). Then there are a few hundred more who have not done any courses but turn out critical reviews based on hearsay, or on an adverse reaction to an acquaintance who did do one. And finally there are the "cult experts", none of whom have bothered to find out at first hand what actually goes on, but are quite happy to hand out their defamatory "expert opinions" on the basis of hearsay and speculation, or to give widespead publicity to selectively gathered slanderous allegations by others whilst hiding behind disclaimers.
Finally there is the extended coverage given to the Neff case above and in the article. Why is this relevant for inclusion at all? If any other company which had been in business for over 14 years, had had 850,000 customers, and had employed over 6,000 staff members over the years, had one single instance where a customer or employee had accused a manager of sexual assault (and one not even substantiated by a conviction), would that merit inclusion in an encyclopedia entry on the company? The only point of including it is if the accusation is being made that LE condones such behaviour, or at least is cavalier in respect of it. Is anyone seriously making any such sugggestion? DaveApter 13:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, and thanks for your contribution to the debate. BTW, have you read the NPOV policy carefully?
You say: I do not agree with you that it is a majority (or at the very least a significant majority) view that Landmark delivers the results it promises.
Sadly, most the information we have about Landmark comes either from Landmark itself...
...(including studies commissioned by Landmark)...
..., devoted Landmark followers,...
... "cult experts" and those with an axe to grind agaisnt Landmark.
I do think, though, that the aggregate of those anonymous webpages, cult experts, negative newspaper articles etc., do show that a significant portion of people view Landmark negatively. ---ODB
Does anybody know what the resolution of the Been v. Weed, Landmark case was? Rick ross has the complaint. The current article cites to a related criminal case. But nothing says how the suit against Landmark ended.
I assume from the testimony in the criminal case + the lack of anything on Rick Ross claiming a victory, that the case went nowhere for the plaintiffs. But I have no source.
Changes
I struck the reason why the United States had jurisdiction. I don't think it is of general interest.
I added "in a related criminal case," because the former language confusingly, at least to me, suggested the expert testified in the civil case.
I struck the part of the quote saying "very rare possibilities." It is a poor phrase that hurts the flow of the article. I also don't think it adds much. The quote is there to show that Landmark was ruled out, not that some "very rare possibilities" were the cause. That said, I would not object to reverting this phrase if someone feels strongly about it. -- ODB
The exchange appears above in the section entitled "Samways and Lell sources":
The fact that Schreiber states that Lell omitted to claim the term "brainwash" does NOT necessarily imply that no brainwashing took place. Schreiber gives here no definitive evidence of non-brainwashing - he merely asserts. - Pedant17 12:02, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
We can note decisions of US courts where appropriate, and of Lithuanian courts also, on an equal basis. - Pedant17 04:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please explain how a lack of positive assertion qualifies as strong evidence?
The argument appears to go like this:
The extended argument of this process appears to proceed something like this:
How would this pattern work in practice? Try this example:
Far from providing a stong argument, such a pattern of thought apparently gives almost no argument at all. Rather:
If a legal process failed to draw out of Lell a definitive statement that he had or had not suffered brainwahing, we have no quotable evidence from this source as to Lell's own opinion on the matter. Thus we have to fall back on other evidence, separate from Lell's (presumed) opinion.
In these circumstances, we could evaluate others' opinions:
- Pedant17 00:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
It is clear that your own point of view is that Landmark Education is in some way harmful and worthy of criticism ( although you have repeatedly declined invitations to indicate your own experiences and evidence leading to your adopting this view). You have made repeated attempts to have this point of view represented disproportionately in this Wikipedia article.
You have repeatedly introduced phrasings intended to cast doubt upon any statements or evidence which casts LE in any kind of positive light, while going to great lengths to include and emphasise references critical of it, however marginal or dubious they may be.
The case made by critics is that one or more of the following opinions applies to LE:
This is the slant that you are repeatedly trying to introduce into the article.
However, when we examine these claims in detail, they turn out to be totally unsubstantiated. For one thing, the actual number of cases where specific allegations of harm resulting from paritcipation in Landmark programs are on the record is infinitesimal as a proportion of number of customers. That is even assuming that the allegations are regarded as justified. But my second point is that wherever there has been any rigorous examination of the claim, it has not been proven.
The repeated references to 'brainwashing' and 'cult' are also dishonest and misleading. Some commentators have used these terms in a loose colloquial sense, and critics repeatedly attempt to confuse the loose casual usage with the specific factual use of the terms, which - if true - would be a very serious accusation.
As far as 'brainwashing' is concerned, it is not clear that it has any specific clear meaning except in a context where someone is being seriously maltreated while being held against their will, eg at a facility such as Guantanamo Bay or a Prison Camp. Clearly nothing like that applies to a Landmark Seminar.
As far as the 'cult' conversation is concerned, the word used in a meaningful sense implies that an organisation shows most of the following characteristics:
None of those apply to LE: There is no single leader, it is run by a board of directors who are elected annually by the shareholders, who are also the staff members; It has no specific beliefs, only various propositions which customers are encouraged to 'try out, and see whether they are useful'; It encourages and empowers customers to seek out and create a life-style which suits them; It encourages customers to be in communication with their friends and families, and to strengthen their relationships with them; It solicits no money or other dues, apart from the (extremely cheap - typically £2.50 per hour, and often much less) tuition fees for whatever courses an individual chooses to register into.
If you want to air your prejudices to a group who share them, I suggest you conribute to one of the many unmoderated discussion groups, not on Wikipedia. Thank you. DaveApter 12:46, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 suggests using "the Wikipedia NPOV distinction separating viewpoints into three categories: I) majority, II) minority and III) insignificant."
I suggest that Landmark-boosters express a relatively insignificant minority opinion. the vast majority of the world's population has never heard of Landmark Education. Even the Landmark Education movement gives itself until the year 2020 to spread its gospel to the last unenlightened human. The unknowing constitute the majority.
What of the so-called "graduates" of Landmark Education? Various estimates of the number of Landmark Education "graduates" exist.
The Landmark Education article estimates the number of Landmark Forum "graduates" at 80,000 per annum (years of coverage not specified), with a total of about 800,000 since 1991 (year of grand total not given).
A quote from Charlotte Faltermeyer's 1998 article in Time magazine, as reproduced (without an attributed date) in the wernererhard.com website gives a figure of 300,000 since 1991.
The Internet Archive site presents some historical snapshots from Landmark Education's website:
Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 May 2000 linked to a Time magazine page of March 16, 1998, (Volume 151, number 10) where an article by Charlotte Faltermeyer estimated 300,000 graduates since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 42 offices in 11 countries.
Landmark Education's web-site as of 28 November 2002, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 21 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2001 numbers").
Landmark Education's web-site as of 29 July 2003, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 60 offices in 24 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2002 numbers").
Landmark Education's web-site as of 10 June 2004, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 600,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2003 numbers").
Landmark Education's web-site as of 1 April 2005, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 725,000 Landmark Forum attendees since 1991, and 58 offices in 26 countries.
Landmark Education's web-site as of 7 February 2006, in excerpting Charlotte Faltermeyer's Time magazine article of March 1998, claimed approximately 758,000 "seekers" as having taken the Landmark Forum since 1991, and referred to Landmark Education's 58 offices in 26 countries ("[u]pdated to reflect current 2004 numbers").
Note that growth as reported here appears somewhat erratic and slowing. Note also that Landmark Education has a reputation for keeping detailed "enrolment" statistics.
Whatever the accurate figures, whatever Faltermeyer's actual estimates, consider the growth-rate, taking the most optimistic figues and rounding up generously:
If (say) a million "graduates", strongly encouraged to enrol others, enrol (say) 100,000 new Forum-attenders in one year (we disregard repeat attendees for this exercise) we get a growth rate of 10%. Apply this, very optimistically, from 1998:
The estimated population of the Earth may reach 8.2 billion by 2020...
Landmark Education, on the basis of such figures, will fail to meet its growth targets and will remain, in terms of the number of its graduates, a relative minority for many years to come. I have not seen any figures to suggest a consistently faster growth rate.
Consider accordingly the way in which Landmark Education spreads its message. A 10% growth rate (with no allowance for drop outs or deaths) needs just every tenth Landmark Education graduate to enrol one person per year successfully - or an average of one enrolment per graduate every ten years. But Landmark Education vigorously encourages a much higher rate of proselytization, and anecdotal accounts and personal experience suggest that some (many) graduates attempt to enrol more than one person every ten years. I suggest that significant numbers of people - almost certainly more than the proportion who eventually become graduates - hear and reject (or hear and ignore) the Landmark Education enrolment approach. Such people have experience of Landmark Education - in the shape of the friend or colleague who attempted to "enrol" them. Such people may research or investigate the nature of Landmark Education to some degree. But nevertheless, such people subsequently dismiss the attempt at "enrolment" and/or reject the idea that they will benefit (or benefit sufficiently) from participating in Landmark Education.
It seems reasonable to surmise that in the matter of Landmark Education, its methods and its product, we could summarize the majority opinion as "Never heard of it"; a significant minority opinion as "No thanks, I have no interest"; and a less significant minority opinion as "Wonderful: it changed my life". Accordingly, skeptical reactions to and assessments of the Landmark Education's sales pitch and reputation have at least as much validity as enthusiastic endorsements do.
- Pedant17 00:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
We have had Erhardism for about 40 years, and Landmark Education for over 15 years. Comparisons with new credit-card offers or with "any new business" seem inappropriate for a long-standing NRM. - Pedant17 04:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, pedant17 and ODB, will you please try to be more concise?
Secondly, will you confine your postings to ones which move the debate forward, and aim to reach a consensus on what can be put into the main article, rather than just having a general rant?
Is this lengthy section about what are appropriate sources for the article, or is it speculation on what the results of an opinion poll on Landmark might be? DaveApter 17:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I don't agree with your characterisation that the article comprises 'stuff coming out of the Landmark PR department.
Neither I nor any other editors that I am aware of have any relationship with Landmark Education other than as a (fairly) satisfied customer. The main re-structuring of the article last November was accomplished by a respected Wikipedian (FuelWagon), who - as far as I know - has no connection with LE at all.
The references in support of what I regard as a majority view are all matters of public record, and do not generally originate from Landmark sources.
Secondly, I don't see anything in the foregoing section from Pedant17 that sheds any real light on what majority opinions might be.
The fact that a slightly larger proportion of people who are offered the opportunity to register into the Landmark Forum decline than accept gives no insight into what their opinion is on the so-called 'controversies'. By far the most common reasons given for declining is 'don't have the time' or 'don't have the money', which is usually a polite way of saying that they are not sufficiently convinced that the benefits to them would be worth the investment. It certainly doesn't mean that they go along with any of the hysterical ravings about cults, brainwashing, psychosis, etc. (most companies would be delighted with anything like a 30% conversion rate by the way).
Almost half of the article is given over to discussion of the so-called controversies. How much more do you want?
Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact - the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.
Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.
From Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:
Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization -- for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.
We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a reasonable idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such details.
"When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance; we must do our best to step back and ask ourselves, "How can this dispute be fairly characterized?" This has to be asked repeatedly as each new controversial point is stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides."
There is no evidence that the number of people holding those opinions is anything other than tiny in proportion to the total number of Landmark customers. There is no evidence that any more than a very small proportion of the customers are at all dissatisfied by the benefits they get from the courses. If you have any evidence from reliable, verifiable, respected sources, why don't you produce it, and if you haven't, what is all this about?
You, ODB, in your paragraph above stated that you believe Landmark to be 'harmful', but you haven't given any indication of actual harm that you believe to have been caused. Would you mbe kind enough to do that, with your estimates of the relative frequency that such things happen, and your evidence for reaching that conclusion? DaveApter 16:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Although there was little information at the time of the suits filed there is a basis to assign blame for the psychotic episodes but est is not completely to blame.
The manner in which the Large Group Training Sessions are held allows the creation of "special circumstances" creating a critical level of exposure from Visual Subliminal Distraction.
The phenomenon was discovered when it caused mental breaks for knowledge workers using the first movable close-spaced office workstations. The Cubicle solved the problem by 1968.
Those who experienced mental breaks would have been previously exposed so that intense exposure during the training session pushed them over the edge.
The same mental breaks happen when Qi Gong or Kundalini Yoga users perform too many sessions in a compact time frame.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/QiGong_Psychotic_Reaction_Diversion.htm
http://visionandpsychosis.net/Kundalini_Yoga_Psychotic_Episode.htm
A longer discussion is on these site pages.
Subliminal Accidental Operant Conditioning is suggested as the acting force in the training seminars.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/EST_Werner_Erhard.htm
They have also happened on polar scientific expeditions, Belgium 1898, and Russian space missions, Soyuz 21.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/Astronauts_Insanity.htm
The phenomenon can be demonstrated with a simple psychology experiment, habituation of the notice you take of movement in peripheral vision.
http://visionandpsychosis.net/a_demonstration_you_can_do.htm
L K Tucker 68.223.107.250 05:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The results section, and the subsection called Post Hoc do not really seem to contain any content. Maybe there are some results, maybe not, and a researcher has said, hey, who knows? Is this useful to the reader? 22:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
A few of the edits you made are ok, but mostly it's the same old nonsense - dragging in anything you can find from obscure, dubious and minority sources to discredit Landmark Education, plus attempts to smear points made legitimately, and mangling the style of the article with unnecessary sub-clauses and qualifying phrases.
The main reason I reverted it outright is that you have flagrantly ignored the notice at the top of this page requesting that this talk page is used to establish consensus before making major edits, and you also ignored the request made to you within this page to make small changes to the article at any one time. If you made one or two amendments to the article at a time, it would be far easier for editors to reach a consensus on the merits of the point you are making.
Even on this discussion page, you only repeat the same old allegations over and again, without coming up with any supporting facts.
The principle charges levelled at Landmark are that it is in some way harmful to at least a portion of the participants.
If there were any truth in that (even if it only applied to a minority of say 10% of customers, and only a small proportion of those came forward), it would be easy to find thousands of specific cases which could be verified. But nobody can come up with any such examples. The reason is very simple - they don't exist.
A considerable amount of space in the article is given over to the so-called controversies that it is a "cult", or uses "brainwashing" techniques, despite the fact that the most cursory investigation reveals that there is no factual basis for these suggestions, and no authoratitive source who has observed the procedings at first hand who is prepared to state that there is.
You also repeatedly re-insert references to Scientology, despite your having been asked above to list similarities and being unable to do so. I know nothing of Scientology, apart from what I have learned by reading the Wikipedia article on it, but the account there describes something which bears no resemblance to any of Landmark's procedures. DaveApter 15:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Taken as a whole, your recent onslaught on the article violates neutrality and due weight policies.
Your continued use of out-of-print and hard to find books (as a principal source of references)is dubious for several reasons. Firstly, it negates a principal point of having references (so that other people can verify for themselves that the source exists and that it does say/imply what is summarised in the article; also so that they can get a sense for themselves of the quality of the research and the reasoning). Secondly, because any work which fails to command enough interest to maintain its availability has questionable status as an "authoratitive source".
To turn to specific parts of your edit:
These were the edits to which I was referring:
I found the book disappointing. Pressman has clearly only told one side of a complex story, and his subjective, sensationalist style serves only to make the intelligent reader wonder what the other side of the story is. The author clearly started his "research" with the fixed outcome (i.e. "Erhard is a bad guy") in mind, and one strongly suspects that he was very selective in those he interviewed and spoke to. I know from personal experience that some of the key information in his book is simply incorrect. Several hundreds of thousands of people around the world clearly benefited from Erhard's extraordinary work - and anyone, however sceptical, must admit that it can best be described as extraordinary. In summary, Pressman appears to be a typical journalist of the cheaper variety: never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
I would not waste time with this unless you enjoy fiction or you love living in a world with a bogeyman around every corner.
"Courses" section - unmerited stylistic mangling which adds nothing to the value of the article. Also inaccurate - the est training does not provide a qualification for registering into Landmark graduate courses.
The "Jargon" section - inaccurate: 'breakthrough' in Landmark terms has no connection with military usage.
My edits of 19 March had their basis, for the most part, in intensive discussions on the Talk page (specially with User:Sm1969), and reflect the agreed outcomes of those discussions. Since I submitted my edits, DaveApter has reverted them twice: on the first occasion claiming that appropriate discussion had not taken place, and on the second occasion asking for Talk-page responses which I had already provided a couple of hours prior.
Total reversions also took place at the hands of 71.146.178.51, a suspected sock-puppet who provided no explanation or justification; and of 66.243.153.70, who alleged but did not justify "bad faith".
I begin to suspect a case of revert-vandalism, suitable for bringing before the relevant Wikipediauthorities.
- Pedant17 13:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I didn't see your "intensive discussions" as reaching any kind of agreement - it seemed to me that you were simply "talking past" the points that Sm19 was making, rather than engaging with them.
The point has been made many times that making edits incrementally would help in refining the article, yet you persist in returning at 3-4 week intervals and making wholesale revisions.
My comments and questions are intended to move us towards a consensus, but your responses seem to me to be more in the nature of cheap jibes and clever debating points rather than an honest attempt to engage with the discussion.
My commitment is to having this article be an accurate impartial concise account of an organisation which is plainly of interest to a significant number of Wikipedia readers and editors. My observations of your contributions to it leave me with the impression that your intention is to use the article as a soapbox for anti-Landmark propaganda - possibly due to failure to recognise your own point-of-view in the matter, rather than any deliberate intention to violate wikipedia's policies.
Within the next 24 hours I will post to this page a summary of points on which I expect we can agree, and points on which we may differ, with a view to moving towards consensus on the question of what should be added to, or subtracted from, the article to improve its quality. DaveApter 20:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The suggestion from Sm1969 that books "go out of print because they need to take such extreme positions to go into print and then they are gone, as happened with Pressman, Lell and Samways" provides a possibility, but an unconvincing one.
It may seem tempting to conclude that such works as W W Bartley's Werner Erhard: The Transformation of a Man: The Founding of EST or Jane Self's 60 Minutes and the Assassination of Werner Erhard: How America's Top Rated Television Show Was Used in an Attempt to Destroy a Man Who Was Making A Difference have gone out of print because of someone taking some extreme positions. But other possibilities exist. Publishers may misread the (potential) market. Subject-matter (such as Erhard and his spin-offs) may go out of fashion or simply lose prominence. Published works may achieve their authors' crusading purposes. Better or more modern books and ideas may eclipse the old ones. Just to identify a few alternative possibilities.
One interesting situation relating to the marketing of books occurs when people with influence attempt to distort the flow of printed matter by manipulating publication and/or distribution. We've seen how Landmark Education, for example, failed to prevent the publication of Martin Lell's book with its inflammatory subtitle translating to "Account of a Brainwashing: The Psycho-Outfit Landmark Education". Another case of potential attempted distortion of book distribution emerges with the statement from the "new" Cult Awareness Network (CAN):
Just a couple of examples of a form of incipient would-be censorship to place alongside the 2004 attempt by Landmark Education to claim damages from the Rick Ross Institute relating to the Institute's web-site materials relating to Landmark Education.
A last (but not least) possibility that might prove a factor in some books going out of print: in recent years this Internet thing has influenced the book market. People with important messages that they wish to communicate may set up a web-site or a blog where once they might have published (or re-published) a pamphlet or a book. The online self-publishing phenomenon makes "publishing" cheaper and easier than in the past. it also makes books relatively more precious than on-line content, since books have more likely profited from the selectivity of a publisher, from the advice of an editor and from the warnings of lawyers.
The implication that books which go out of print "are gone" exaggerates the situation. Apart from second-hand book establishments, libraries ( particulary serious libraries and libraries of record) collect and preserve books quite assiduously. I recommend libraries.
Books, in short, -- even out-of-print books -- continue to have relevance for reference and research purposes, and may well survive better than much of the contemporary electronic ephemera. The fact that some (many, even most) books go out of print eventually does not necessarily reflect on their accuracy or their authority or their importance.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 has noted that in contradistinction to books going out of print:
I see some problems with this argument as expressed.
Scheduled Landmark Forums may not provide a good indicator of growth/decline in the popularity even of Landmark Education courses. Even if scheduled manifestations of the Landmark Forum always take place as scheduled, we do not know how many people attend each one. Even if we had a reliable average figure of numbers attending, we do not know how many repeating attendees lurk behind the numbers. Even if we could learn what proportion of attendees provide fresh blood at the Landmark-Forum level we gain little insight into growth/decline of Landmark Education's numerous other course offerings from Landmark Forum figures alone. And even if we obtained clean figures for this, there would remain, at all levels, the issue of attendees dropping out.
Overall then, necessarily fuzzy estimates of growth/decline of interest in Landmark Education do not compare compatibly with growth/decline of interest in books, where we can expect publishers (at least) to have accurate records of the numbers of volumes printed, the numbers sold and the numbers pulped.
Note too that electronic publishing may have recently impacted on the book trade, distorting the perceived popularity of ideas as measured by volumes printed.
Moreover, the correlation between popularity of books and popularity of Landmark Education appears questionable. The two products have somewhat different markets, very different marking methods, and widely divergent influences affecting their sustainability and profitability. No necessary linkage or correlation exists.Such "verifiable evidence" as we have substantiates nothing overall. Landmark Education enrolments have grown, but over the same period the price of a barrel of crude oil has grown more in relative terms. So what?
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
DaveApter detects an inaccuracy in the claim that est training sometimes suffices as a prerequisite for taking part in Landmark Education courses, and points out that "the est training does not provide a qualification for registering into Landmark graduate courses."
That formulation appears to match current Landmark Education policy for "Landmark graduate courses". But the text as I last edited it did not confine itself narrowly to current policy nor to "graduate" courses, specifically stating:
Without having set up an experiment to test whether non-graduates can purchase the Landmark Education courses available on CD: ("Relationships: Love, Intimacy, & Freedom" and "Causing the Miraculous"), I would point out that the Landmark Education website advertises, (under a separate rubric from the "Graduate Programs") "The Landmark Family Coaching Session": "Open to the public, this program... ". The page for "The Family Coaching Session" itself says:
The Landmark Education website also touts the offerings of its fully-owned subsiary, "Landmark Education Business Development" (LEBD). I detect no mention of specified prerequisites for LEBD courses on the LEBD webpages.
DaveApter also points out that Landmark Education's 'Causing the Miraculous" seminar has an implied prerequisite that participants have "completed" the Landmark forum. Well, surprise, surprise: Landmark Education has changed the rules! I remember how, at the time when Landmark Education introduced this seminar, the publicity made a special pitch to encourage est graduates (as opposed to the other target audience, Landmark Forum graduates) to attend.
This may exemplify an overall pattern. When Landmark Education first began offerring seminars and courses in 1991, it recognised veterans of est and of Werner Erhard and Associates (WE&A) courses as having fulfilled requirements for embarking on the non-Forum courses as appropriate. To have started the credentialling process from scratch immediately whould have interrupted the flow in the ongoing series of courses that Landmark Education wanted to sell to its pre-approved repeat-custom clientele.
Later, one might reasonably surmise, Landmark Education would want to milk its graduate body further by encouraging its members to re-qualify for "higher" courses under new rules. Thus the situation with "Graduate courses" and their prerequisite conditions today.
My formulation of the situation in my last edit, "Landmark Education currently regards... " glossed over but covered these details. The bald statement that replaced my text: "Completing the Landmark Forum is a pre-requisite for registering into any other Landmark Education course" disregards the historic facts and over-simplifies the present policy of Landmark Education.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean this in a bad way - but given all the more substantive issues we are dealing with is not this topic really much ado about nothing and angels dancing on heads of pins? I mean 99% of the time it is true that the Landmark Forum is a pre-requisite for Landamrk's courses. Introductions (obviously) and some Family courses not withstanding it is primarily and for all practical purposes a truism. So- who cares? I don't mind if we softwen the statement to add "with osme expections" or some such but I don't think it matters.
Historically I think the Landmark leadership struggled with how to include the people who participated in the Forum before Landmark and even those that did est. Not that is all sufficiently in the past that I don't believe it really comes up any more. Now, it comes down to "requiring Landamrk Forum " or Not. est is pretty much out of the picture. - Alex Jackl 04:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
DaveApter regards the contributed "Operational Statistics" section as "lenghty, tedious irrelevant" and has removed the section as "spurious".
I repeat my previous and so-far unrefuted comment on the matter: "I attempted to provide a precise, careful reflection of the wording and numbers published (principally) by Landmark Education itself. If one believes statements made by Landmark Education, one could regard these figures as "facts" about the history of the Landmark Forum. Even if one regards Landmark Education as a business, figures relating to growth may interest readers. - Pedant17 13:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)"
The allegedly "spurious" facts and wording in the section come largely from web-pages published by Landmark Education, and paint a picture of company growth. Such statistics seem relevant to a Wikipedia article discussing an self-described "business". I do not know of more accurate published statistics: if found we should add them.
Note that the availability of well-established statistics cannot help but ground what might otherwise become more speculative discussion on Landmark Education's growth and significance in its chosen market.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 states: "Another article reference that I have a problem with is the Eileen Barker article on New Religous Movements, which also has zero references to Landmark Education."
I presume that the expressed "problem" relates to the reference to Barker's book, New Religious Movements. That book, written by a prominent scholar who has expressed skepticism on the matter of cults, nevertheless offers an explanation as to why people accuse certain movements of brainwashing. Given that the popular perception of Landmark Education frequently associates it with brainwashing, Barker's insights seem useful and relevant to a discussioin of Landmark Education, and especially so in a discussion of Landmark Education's alleged brainwashing. As it so happens, Barker's comments tend to question rather than to endorse the notion that groups such as Landmark Education actually may practise brainwashing.
Barker's book appeared in 1989, just before Landmark Education emerged as the successor-owner of the intellectual property, the telephone-lists and the practices of est and of Werber Erhard and Associates. Excluding Barker's work from consideration of brainwashing in the late 20th century on the grounds of timing would resemble discussing a new development in genetic engineering without the freedom to reference Darwin, or banning discussion of Von Neumann's publications in a consideration of Java programming.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
This argument does assume a twice-removed causal link if you don't accept the initial premise that Landmark is brainwashing (which I by the way find little to no evidence for). Better for people interetsted in concepts and subtleties around brainwashing to go somewhere else than this article. There is enough mention in the article of certian people thoughts on Landamrk being associated with brainwashing that any more would begin bending POV balance far too much (In My Opinion) Alex Jackl 04:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 makes the intriguing suggestion that "Landmark Education is not "est".
On a certain superficial level, this suggestion appears accurate: differently-named courses presented by differently-named enities at different times may have changed/developed/transformed.
But equally -- and perhaps even at a more fundamental level -- est gave rise to Landmark Education, and Landmark Education inherits and reflects est.
If at some point in time Landmark Education repudiated est and all its works, forms, methods and practices, let's hear about it. In the meantime, we can assume some sort of connection between est and Landmark Education, between Werner Erhard and Associates and Landmark Education LLC, and between the est training and the Landmark Forum.
In light of this I set up a "Est and Landmark Education" section in the "History" section of the Landmark Education article as a likely spot for discussion of the inheritances and the differences connecting and contrasting the two phenomemena. I take the view that part of history involves coming to terms with the past and making a distinction between past and present. Our very discussion of this topic (est and Landmark Education) reflects the importance and widespread perception of some sort of connection, which a serious encyclopedic treatment of Landmark Education needs to address. ( However, I see that a subsequent has eviscerated the "History" section and removed my contributions as expressing "extreme minority opinion".)
Sm1969 goes on to suggest that in comparing est and Landmark Education "in order for anyone to truly make that comparison, you would have to have someone (a credible source) do both programs and then make the comparison."
I disagree on the necessity for such an approach: indeed, a comparison using this method would provide very little useful data. Any study based on a person (or even multiple people), however "credible", "do[ing] both programs" would fall into the trap of what I think of as the experience fallacy. Psychologists know that we cannot rely on reports of experience. Lawyers, though they have to deal with the personal experiences of their clients, also know how unreliably their reports can reflect actual events. Physical scientists trust calibrated equipment rather than their own impressions. Even parapsychologists have started to learn that what their subjects report counts for very little. But marketers of Landmark Education have yet to learn the perils of relying on the personal account.
If we wish to compare est and Landmark Education (and I believe we must do so in order to gain some understanding of many aspects of the Landmark Education story and phenomenon), we can more profitably employ better forms of evidence: slightly more subtle (but more reliable) indirect methods. The insights of published researchers such as Barker and Pressman provide one valid place from which to start.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
To be totally frank I usually disagree with you, Pedant- not on everything but on a lot. It seems like you have some axe to grind. Please no insult- I am only expressing my opinion and perception. I could be wrong.
In this case, though, I think you raise an interesting question: How do you compare two things that by their nature are experential and do not come with pre-ordained specific measures.
I have done the Landmark Forum and not done the est training. Frankly, everything I know about the est Training is from est graduates accounts, newspaper and magazine articles, and books. I think I would be a bad judge for comparing the est training with the current Landmark Forum. Partly because a lot of the people who have told stories about the Landmark Forum- including published accounts- are so off the mark. Because of this I need to assume at least as bad an accuracy drift in the published accounts on the est Training. Therefore - who knows?
I think you are totally worng as well about there being any advantage to not having been at one. That is how Cold Fusion happened. Enough people believed what they heard without trying it themselves- once peopel started trying it - the story unraveled. Same deal here. I have no repsect for anyone who claims to be able to analyze the Landmark Forum with ANY depth who hasn't studied it directly. That is just good rigor in an investigation or a study.
Anecdotal and second hand accounts do not good science or good reporting make although both have to make do occassionally when they need to.
My advice: Don't listen to people spouting off about something they have not studied in detail. If they have studied the socisaological phenomenon by interviewing people who have done it and want to talk about that GREAT- but all you are doing is polling people 's opinions then. It is one level of depth and does not compare with direct study.
SOoo... that being said I think a section on est and Landmark might be useful but it is such ancient history it should be a small section. Landamrk does not at all by the way deny it is connected hisotrically with the est Training. Werner Erhardt is clearly the originator of a lot of the initial "technology" Landmark started with and many of Landamrk's original founding memebers working with Erhard in WE&A and est. There are no dark secrets in that at all.
- Alex Jackl 02:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Sm1969 states: Your "debunking" of the surveys is unattributed POV and your own analysis. You can say that the survey methodology was not disclosed, but adding the term "debunking" violates the attribution policy. You also have the reputations of these large marketing research companies (Yankelovich and Harris).
I accept that my use of the word "debunking" slightly overstated my case.
I did not previously realise that I had "the reputations of these large marketing research companies (Yankelovich and Harris)".
I have nothing against Harris Interactive doing surveys and know nothing of the reputation of that organization. But surveys of participants have inherent problems (self-reporting, organizational taint...), and the fact that Landmark Education's website does not disclose details of the methodology of the survey makes the results of this Harris Interactive survey very questionable.
The case against the DYG survey has more sinister overtones. The Landmark Education website touts a "Full Survey" but fails to provide methodology details (once again). That does not necessarity reflect on DYG or on Daniel Yankelovich, it simply demonstrates Landmark Education's apparent inability to pass on meaningful information -- as promised in the phrase "Full Survey" -- in this respect. I do wonder, though, at the accuracy of Landmark Education's apprent implication that "Internationally recognized social scientist, Daniel Yankelovich surveyed more than 1300 people" in person. Note too that Yankelovich personally endorses Landmark Education in his book The Magic of Dialog (2001, pages 143 - 144). Does this expressed published opinion have any potential bearing on the independence and the impartiality of the administration and interpretation of the DYG survey? Landmark Education, while praising Yankelovich, does not even give us the date of that survey, let alone any precautions taken against any perceivable bias.
- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I, for fun, went to a few sites of organizations that do training of any kind (Harvard, Meta Group, Deloitte, etc.) SOme of them site surveys and polls and what not but they do not have a brief with the full statistcial breakdown and methodology details. You are applying a lens innapropriate to the subject matter. There is no "hidden secrets" about these surveys- just as Harvard's web site (well- as far as I know) has no hidden secrets about it. This is an educational company. If you have some "evidence" of wrong-doing - GREAT! Let's see your proof. Lack of methodology documentation by non-scientists and non-lawyers is hardly damning evidence. Let's compare apples to apples, please. Otherwise these revisions will take FOREVER to sort out with NPOV. It is these kinds of assertions that make people react negatively to your revisions Pedant- they don't seem neutral- they seem bent on promulgating some point of view you have fostered about Landmark Education.
Believe me, Pedant, I have seen these guys at work and they are flawed. They are a human institution with all that impluies- but they are no more flawed than any other. I also respect you diligence and your committment to stick to your guns. I don't want the pro-Landamrk people to squash anything you are saying because you have said somethings worthy of consideration. However, from my standpoint you are evincing extremely ANTI-Landmark biases in your revisions and that will keep prompting strong counter -revisions to keep the page balanced.
Eventually we will need to call in a third-party moderator again and that will probably not go in your favor. SO- let's focus on the issues of susbstance - not dissecting the pre-requisites of courses for legalistic exceptions or the lack of scientific methodology attribution on an educational company's website.
Sm1969 states: "I think the Class-A/B/C/D distinction is relevant. Class-A (never heard of LE), Class-B (heard and declined), Class-C (did and liked) and Class-D (did and disliked) is relevant for accurate reporting of the points of view. Not much is said about why people choose not to do the Landmark Forum, but Class-C reflects consistent favorable surprise and is a high majority over class D. In other words, the majority POV should reflect that people who chose to do the Landmark Forum were surprised and liked it. You want to conflate Class-B and Class-D and cause the readers researching LE to be mislead to believe that, if, for example, they did the Landmark Forum, they would not like it (or feel that it produces results); that's misleading."
Would that we could divide up the world so consistently and neatly! But we cannot..
The characteristic of "surprise" has not appeared before in this particular typology. Unless we can find evidence for it, I propose to quietly drop this sort of speculation about "surprise" as a factor for subdividing the universe.
We do not have any reliable statistics that would confirm the assertion that [did and liked] outnumbers [did and disliked]. And here I feel moved to point out that the original definition of "Class C" read: "heard of it, did it and found it useful". This shifting from "found Landmark Education useful" to "liked" won't help to keep our debate on track. It also introduces an emotional element which may make the discussion even more anarchic.
But our real problem lies in distinguishing [noted and declined] from [did and rejected]. We cannot reliably make this distinction. Many commentators simply fail to mention whether or not they took part in a Landmark Education activity. And even when they say or imply that they did, we cannot always know how to classify them. The journalists who infiltrate the Landmark Forum may or may not participate fully as individuals, but some at least retain some shreds of journalistic detachment and live to report the tale. Likewise observing psychologists and anthropologists and sociologists may find it hard to put aside their specialized training and learned insights, even if they wish to do so.
Since we cannot reliably distinguish [noted and declined] from [did and disliked], we must perforce often conflate the two.
We may even have a small group (which we could call "Class Z") - those who have not participated, but who nevertheless find evidence of something to approve of (purely your opinion that this is a "small group" - I don't know what data you base this on DA). But the large majority of those with an opinion on Landmark Education fall higgledy-piggledy into a class of disapprovers (again, just your personal opinion - and again without any reliable supporting data DA): whether or not they participated fully to the bitter end, whether they walked out of an "Introduction" or a "Guest Evening" or a "Landmark Forum" (From my own observations, I estimate that around 1% walk out of a Landmark Forum, and perhaps 2-3% from guest events), whether or not they rapidly or gradually determined to stay well away from any such activities.
The foregoing simply reminds us that participation (or non-participation) has very little to do with what we want to measure here -- we want to measure views on Landmark Education, with the aim of establishing majority views and significant minority views, not as an end in itself, but so that we can reflect all of those those views in our Wikipedia articles.
In summary, any views questioning of the merits of Landmark Education form an overall majority. Any views which accept that Landmark Education has some good and worthwhile features form a minority, though possibly a significant minority.
As for the stated concern about misleading people into a particular belief or attitude or expectation, that sounds like a marketing concern. Wikipedia does not have a mission of carrying out marketing or advertising on behalf of Landmark Education - rather it aims to report facts - including the fact that many people hold such-and-such opinions.
If we DO wish to forestall any misleading of potential customers, we can best do this by reporting ALL opinions about Landmark Education, regardless of our fascinating calculations of what constitutes minority, majority or extreme minority status.That would leave the potential customers with the ability to do their own research and to make up their own minds. This provides an excellent argument for accepting and recording all views on the matter. Wikipedia, after all, aims for encyclopedic coverage.
The issue of whether the Landmark Forum produces results receives probably its best expression in the work of Fisher et al (Fisher, J D; Silver, R C; Chinsky, J M; Goff, B and Klar, Y: Evaluating a Large Group Awareness Training: A Longitudinal Study of Psychosocial Effects Springer-Verlag, 1990, ISBN 0387973206), whose rigorous study came to the definitive conclusion that participating in a proto-Forum had minimal effects on participants.
All other studies/surveys known to me rely on self-reported experiences, and even apart from their apparent methodological deficiencies, we know that anecdotal testimonials of personal experience have minimal weight in the evaluation of a claim. - Pedant17
Now this is more interesting. Let me summarize:
- All(or the ones mentioned anyway) the surveys or studies done with actual graduates have demonstrated that either it produced positive results or has "minimal effects".
- You think the ones with the positive results had poor methodology because you don't know what most of their methodology was and don't agree with their conclusion.
Great- that is extremely positive for Landmark. Why do you think that is negative? Studies on the positive or negative impact (a relativistic, self-perceptual value judgement anyway - as you point out) are automatically EXTREMELY soft science and hard to make measurable.
I think a broad, new study of a group of particpants over the course of a year would be VERY interesting. I would love to see the metrics they would use to define success given the promises of the Landmark Forum. Who is going to fund that kind of extensive study? I am not. Landmark is already pretty happy with the success of the studies thay have funded. Pedant?
Until we find a funding source to do one, this is all smoke and mirrors. The negative value judgements are primarily third hand accounts- non-researchers talking about people they knew who did it(not entirely- just most). The studies we have are neutral to positive about the Landmark Forum.
There are published works and each of those must be evaluated but most of those are also just second-hand accounts of personal testimony- which you assert is not meaningful. That wipes out 95% of negative literature about the Landamrk Forum in one fell swoop.
I am not trying to be bad here- but come on. The thing I like about this topic is it is susbstantive and worth discussing. There just isn't any case I see for any revisions based on it...
The text:
has disappeared from the article with the comment "Reference is on est, not LE".
Schwertfeger wrote her comments in the preface to a book on Landmark Education. Her mention of est she evidently considered relevant to Landmark Education in this context. As Landmark Education has undoubted links with est -- not least the purchase of its intellectual property via Werner Erhard and Associates, Schwertfeger's comment merits inclusion in a discussion of the philosophical origins of Landmark Education's activities. (We need citations for the people who have compared Landmark Education ideas to those of " Heidegger, Richard Rorty, Sartre, Fernando Flores [...] Westernized and popularized Zen ... Socrates [and] Wittgenstein" as well...) - Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Landmark_Education&diff=44789706&oldid=44789664 Changing this heading in the article to "Management" implies that the Landmark Forum leaders that it discusses count as managers. It also precludes the inclusion of historical figures, prominent in Landmark Education, who no longer rank (or never ranked) as "Management". They too deserve a place in this hall of infamy. - Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I am really curious....
- Alex Jackl 05:34, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
In the "Management" article, there appeared to be a sort of random collection of people; some of whom appeared to hold positions of management and others who did not. I researched other major companies to see what their articles said about their management persons/structure and found very little (please see: Tony Robbins, The Learning Company, Target Corporation, and Wal-Mart). At most, I discovered a list of Wal-Mart board members and a link to a very brief biography of the company's CEO. Even Tony Robbins article gave only a minimal description of Mr. Robbins personal life. While the heads of a company are pertinent and important to an informational article about a company—the slew of disjointed employees is not, and calls into question the NPOV of that article. I’ve removed all names from the management page with the exception of the CEO of Landmark Education, Harry Rosenberg, and the CEO of Landmark Education Business Development, Steve Zaffron. Blondie0309 16:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
DaveApter has changed the text:
to read:
with the comment: "remoed marginal minority opinion".
I know of no evidence that makes the legitimate comment on books going out of print a "marginal minority opinion". I await evidence of facts or definitive refutation before accpting this undue POV highlighting of out-of-printedness.The Lell book, as THE published book on Landmark Education, has particular resonance for our Landmark Education article. Have other books specifically devoted to Landmark Education ever even appeared in print, let alone remained in print? - Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Other editors have transformed "Various opinions on Landmark Education" into "Generally unfavorable opinions on Landmark Education".
Let me repeat what I stated in a previous discussion:
I've seen nobody coming forward with further discussion of the points I raised; accordingly, we should NOT -- without further discussion of the issue -- change this section-header to use a misleading title such as "Generally unfavorable..." -- Pedant17 03:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much of a meeting of minds here. And the same points keep getting made ad nauseam. Can we just pause to take stock of the situation?
What facts on this subject can we be sure of?
1) Tens of thousands of people from dozens of countries do the Landmark Forum every year, and tens of thousands also do other courses offered by Landmark Education. The majority of those who do the Landmark Forum do at least one other Landmark Course.
2) The majority of those who do it report that they got worthwhile results, that it represented good value for money, and was well worth the time spent.
3) A large proportion of those who do Landmark courses recommend them to their friends, family and colleagues.
4) Some people who did the Landmark Forum subsequently said that they didn't like it and/or didn't get useful results.
5) Some acquaintances of people who did Landmark courses don't like the apparent effects.
6) Some acquaintances of people who did Landmark courses do like the apparent effects.
7) Some people have formed an opinion that Landmark courses are harmful in some way, at least for some participants.
8) Some journalists have written articles critical of Landmark Education.
9) Some journalists have written articles giving a substantially positive account of Landmark Education.
10) Some people have from time to time given the opinion that Landmark Education is a cult.
11) Landmark Education has none of the characteristics that define a cult.
12) Some people have from time to time given the opinion that Landmark Education uses "brainwashing" techniques.
In order to give "due weight" to the differing opinions above, we need to have some idea of the numbers of people who hold them, and what is the basis for their opinion, and what is the expertise and reputation of the people who express them.
Regarding (2), the only specific sources we have are the surveys quoted in the article. Pedant and ODB want to have these disregarded entirely because of a lack of detail on the methodology, but they give no evidence whatsoever for any alternative estimates, still less any sources for such. Anyone can get a feel for the spectrum of reactions to the Landmark Forum by going along to any Tuesday evening session. What is invariably observed is over 90% entirely satisfied with what they have just been through. In my experience typically 0, 1 or 2 people (out of 150-200) leave during the course, and 0, 1 or 2 are complaining at the end.
Regarding (4), the only evidence is the complaints on various bulletin boards and discussion forums and on sites maintained by implacable critics. Most are anonymous so we have no way of evaluating the authority and reliability of the writer. Even if we take all at face value, and assume that all are distinct individuals, the total number is an infinitesimal proportion of the numbers who have done the Landmark Forum. Many of these openly admit that they didn't do the assignments and/or didn't keep the promises they made at the start of the course, so perhaps it's not surprising they didn't experience any benefits.
Regarding (5) and (6), reaction of acquaintances, there appears to be no objective data, but it clearly isn't universal that acquaintances are spooked by the effects of Landmark courses. My estimate is that more find their friends to be more energetic, honest, reliable and/or empathic etc. than complain about them becoming "obsessed" or "weird" etc.
Regarding (7), harmful effects, the number of identifiable alleged cases in support of this is insignificant in relation to the number of landmark Customers (less than 0.001%), and in none of them is a clear-cut link established anyway.
Regarding (8) and (9), journalistic appraisal, there seem to me to be at least as many items giving an essentially positive account, and the proportion seems to be much higher in the "serious" rather than "sensationalist" part of the press spectrum. It's up to individuals to review the sources and come to their own conclusions.
Regarding (10), "cult" allegations, the only identifiable accusers are a handful of self-appointed "cult experts". Clearly they have a vested interest in scaremongering, and a vested interest in refusing to own up to misjudgements. Furthermore none of them have observed Landmark courses themselves, nor do they show any convincing evidence of accurate knowledge of Landmark's methodology. On every occasion where they have had to either justify or retract the accusation, they have chosen to retract. Yet they continue to maintain the stance they have explicitly disavowed, eg by selectively publishing hostile anonymous opinions on their websites whilst asserting a lack of accountability for the same.
Regarding (12), the "brainwashing" debate, the only sources that Pedant has managed to come up with are an offhand comment in an article in a lifestyle and gossip magazine, and one book that never made it into the English language writtten by one disgruntled customer 13 years ago and long out of print. The author has no credentials in the field and could not confirm when cross-examined under oath that he had been brainwashed anyway. Does this really count as a 'notable source'? On the other had we have attributable opinions by eminent psychiatrists and religious leaders that there is no resemblance to brainwashing. Does this really justify the best part of a screenful in the article dealing with this topic?
In short, although the article notes that "Landmark Education and its methods evoke considerable controversy, with passionate opinions held both by supporters and by detractors," it turns out that a search for notable sources for the detractors' position fails to come up with much. It is almost impossible to find credible authorities citing actual facts or reliable evidence to back up the criticisms levelled. Against this background, the article already gives considerable space to airing their views. Pedant's edits invariably have the impact in total of emphasising negative opinions and undermining supportive views.
Pedant17 clearly reveals a strong anti-Landmark POV in his comments on this page. Of course he is perfectly entitled to that. What he is not entitled to do is make repeated attempts to hijack this article to propagandize his own viewpoint. DaveApter 13:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
1. I made a series of changes that I consider corrections against POV attacks on the site.
2. There is an LGAT page. It is currently appropriately referenced that some consider Landmark to be an LGAT. All the rest is fine material for someone to put up on the LGAT page. Just to make it easier for someone to do this I added an explicit reference to the LGAT page for anyone interested.
3. People should sign in if they are going to make edits. I am not interested in debating with an IP address.
4. At least half of the "References" where not appropriate to this page - they were about Cults, LGATs and other things. I considered just renaming the section "Unfavorable Landamrk Education References" but then decided that that was just catering to a POV attack on what is supposed to be a NPOV article so I took it out. There is a cult page and there is an LGAT page. I think the poster of that section should feel free to go to work on those pages OR OR
5. Recommend some references here on the Talk page and let's get some agreement that they represent the subject in a NPOV way and then let's post them.
6. I am happy to discuss any of these changes- I am too busy and don't have time for a soapbox. However, I will maintain the integrity of the pages I am watching or call in a moderator if the attacks get to be too much.
- Alex Jackl 00:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Rading this article I find a subtle bias in favour of Landmark. I dont have an oppion either way on Landmark I just think the article should be more neutral.
I believe this article is trapped in that form of debate centered around false duality. Do people think an article on banana trees should have 50% stuff negative about banana trees and 50% positive about banana trees? No- you put in the facts about banana trees. Now if there is some dissention on the subject of banana trees you would want to reference that but the majority of the article would be facts and generally understood knowledge about the topic of banana trees written mostly by experts on banana trees.
In this case, there are a few people out there with radical and deeply-held negative opinions about Landmark Education. At the risk of generalizing, they keep trying to shift the POV of the article to be about talking about their beliefs or defending Landmark about those beliefs. It has been demonstrated on these pages that this is a SIGNIFICANT minority belief and we have had to pull in moderators at least twice to pull these revisionists back.
Some of the points they add, I believe, are worthy of comment and some are just blatant negative spin. I think the current article is still too heavily shifted in the direction of the unfavorable POV, but Wikipedia is about the "commons" right? They have a right to their opinions so there is a fairly extensive section about some of those minority concerns.
Any more emphaiss than already exists there would inaccurately represent the facts of the article. In My Opinion.
SO, hopefully we are coming to an understanding with Pedant17 (a person with some of those opinions, but at least talking and presenting their case) and have stabilized things. Those that change the content and don't even register themselves as who they are... mostly we will just reverse those as vandalism.
I read the article and I find it more neutral than in early revisions but still slanted to the negative. *shrug* Thank God we are all different- the world would be so boring!
- Alex Jackl 01:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm in favor of a NPOV article as well. I think there needs to be more content actually speaking about Landmark Education and less about the controversies surrounding it. While it is noteworthy to mention some of the controversies, they should be relevant to the overall article. At the moment, some of the controversies barely seem related to the content present in the rest of the article.
In reviewing the entire page. I found a few things that I cleaned up- there was an old request for citation that had the citation added but the request was still there. There were a few sections where a lot of extra verbiage was put in to, perhaps, make it sound legal or in doubt or something, which verbiage I removed. :-)
For instance, in the scope section I removed the plethora of various ways it was written to imply this is "just" what Landmark says. Saying it once at the begining is enough. Everyone gets that is Landmark's position. If you ask for the charter or scope of a company it is obviously their "stated" scope and is obviously what they "maintain". Saying it over and over agian just clutters the article.
I also took out a incorrect change to the page which changed the reference to limited Liability Corporation [LLC] to [LEC] . This was just an error of someone not reading carefully enough before changing the article.
As always, feel free to contact me with questions or concerns.
- Alex Jackl 05:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed these (again) because they violate several of Wikipedia's policies, most especially the NPOV and citation of sources.
Judging from these edits and others you have made on other topics, you don't seem to have grasped the nature of Wikipedia - it is not a discussion board for posting up your personal opinions and observations. The statements should be in the realm of facts, not opinions or value judgements, and the published sources where these facts can be verified should be provided.
Furthermore, several of the points you inserted are already discussed elsewhere in the article. DaveApter 11:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I was reading through this artical and was following the links.
I could not see any reason why "hypnosis" & "martial arts" were included in the see also section.
martial arts just through me. In my limited understanding of Landmark Education they are not related in any way to martial arts.
I agree. I am going to weed out the non-directly related "See Also"s or at least categorize them clearly. This is a site about Landmark Education NOT Werner Erhard or EST. ALthough Werner Erhard and EST have a place in the history leading up to Landmark Education it is FAR TOO OVER EMPHASIZED in this article. I am not going to try to solve the bigger problem- but I will clean up the "See Also" section.
Hopefully we will not have to involve the Wikipedia's administrators involved in this. If this keeps up we will propbably need to do that again. Managing POV is critical with a site that has as much contraversy attached to it.
Alex Jackl 14:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I think almost all the financial stuff about Werner Erhardt and EST and WEA is ancient history- all pre-Landmark.
In speaking with the user Smeelgova he said that
"these issues are not ancient history, considering Werner Erhard is getting a payout of a $15 million dollar licensing fee, plus 50% of pre-tax profit from Landmark, and the likelihood that the license to Landmark will revert back to him in under 3 years. (At least from the research that I have read so far.)"
I am getting documentation for this right now. But I am clear that some of this is innaccurate and some of it is outdated.
My understanding is that about 3 - 5 years ago Landmark bought out the $15 million dollar ( I don't know the exact figure by the way- I am using Smeelgovas as a reference so we are talking about the same thing) licensing agreement and now owns all of the technology outright. My understanding is that the licensing agreement that was bought out those years ago was the sum total of the existing fiscal relationship with Werner Erhardt.
He definitely is not getting 50% of the pre-tax profit so you should check your sources because that is wildly inaccurate. I know you are referencing Pressman's book (terrible reference by the way since he wrote it as a hack job it isn't likely to be full of NPOV data! :-)) and an article I haven't read from some paper called the the "Metro" from 1998. We should probably see if we could reference some public documents rather than what these two authors thought (not withstanding the fact that Pressman's information is 14 years old!)
Metroactive is a Northern California meta-site specializing in arts and entertainment information and featuring content from three of the San Francisco Bay Area's leading publications: Metro, Silicon Valley's Weekly Newspaper; Metro Santa Cruz; and the North Bay Bohemian. Both Metroactive and Metro's weeklies have won national awards for writing, editing and design. website, Metroactive
Alex notes: The citation is relevant to the section- its accuracy is all that is in question. I have located the article thanks to Smeelgova's assistance. Here is the URL: Landmark Article in Metro I have contacted the author to see if she has any notes on her sources. She does not cite any in the article and she herself is not an expert- she is a reporter who attended a Forum and talked to some people and then wrote the piece for the Metro. Her assertions on the finances are not attributed so it will be hard to find out where she got them from unless she can find her records that go back that long.
Alex Jackl 20:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Back to Smeelgova: Quite frankly, Landmark Education's parent organization was founded by Werner Erhard, and there should be a small yet significant piece on him present on this article's page. Smeelgova 16:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I have heard that Werner Erhardt occassionally will do a conference or consult but have never seen that personally. I will see if I can get some official or unofficial stance on that.
I will look for documentation on these matters because unlike the WEA and EST finincials and goings on I think Werner Erhardt's financial ties to the organization has some relevance to this article. (Not too large, but it deserves a treatment).
Alex Jackl
14:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Because of that I am going to reverse this change. I will try to soften my source note a little but i think it needs to stay or we need to take the assertion out.
This frustrating because any idiot can say anyhting about anything and if a reporter reports that unattributed we should put it into an encyclopedia article? I don't think so. But I agree we can't just remove the reference so I thought my source note was a good compromise. I am looking for contradictory source documentation that is meaningful. I have read her other articles- this woman was by no means an expert and this was a one shot assignment for her.
Let's talk about this more. I will put a kinder, gentler version of my warning on the article site. Alex Jackl 23:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem with including things that we are almsot certian is untrue and there is dispute about is that it misleads the reader and diminishes WIkipedia's repiutation as a source of accurate information.
I have this page as one of the pages I have volunteered to look over and keep vandal-free. it is a constant struggle with this because of the contraversersy and strong opinion on all sides.
We had gotten to a point where the page had stabilized and we were making slow gradiual changes with discussions about it here. Let's not have to pull in the Wikipedia NPOV police again. In both cases it was decided that the anti-Landmark contingent was vandalizing and we did a massive change over. Let's not do that again.
To perform a sanity check I have been checking other web sites about organizations and corproations. 1) Some of them do need POV checks becasue they ar eoften blatant marketing for thwir company. 2) Not SINGLE ONE I FOUND DEDICATES THE PERCENTAGE OF ITS ARTICLE TO NAY-SAYERS AND CRITICS AS THIS ONE DOES. 3) IF THIS ARTICLE HAD TO GO THROUGH A pov SHIFT IT WOULD BE PUSHED TO THE MORE POSITIVE ABOUT LANDMARK. 4)Let's stop the revising and start discussion streams on the talk page and when we reach consesnus we will then move content on the page. It will slow things down but- what's the hurry. This article states the facts and gives a thorough overview of Landmark Education and it s critics view points. 5) This is an article about Landamrk Education NOT Werener Erhardt or EST or WEA. Let's stick to that there ar emore than enough reference to that- people get it. There is a connection.
Thanks! Trying to avoid calling in the cops!
Alex Jackl 00:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
This all boils down to point three: "relative balance". There is not a "certain degree of transparency" - there is an excess of content not about the core topic of the article. This article is NOT about Werner Erhardt, EST, or WEA. It is also not about cults. Now, it is contingent on us to mention the contraversies but the percentage of content in this article on those topics compared to the core topic is very high compared to other sites. I am not a "pro-Landmark fanatic" but I am struggling to pare down what seems to me to be heavily editorial content that is driven by an anti-LE bias. I want to be responsible about "seems" but that position has been validated twice now when we pulled in uninvolved Wikipedia editors to intervene.
This is an article about Landmark Education - the fact that you think data about the vocabulary and courses- data DIRECTLY relevant to the topic might be superfluous is a good indicator of where you are looking.
In point one: Singer's comments after the fact are all besides the point. If we listed the sour grapes of everyone who lost a court battle in every legal battle listed in Wikipedia it would fill volumes. The bottom line is when she was under oath she told a different story. I appreciate you feel there is more to the story but that section is about legal challenges. Let's keep it to that.
In point two: It isn't a legal document. Don't put it into the legal document section. I am not saying don't put it in the article. It is a fine and valid reference - just not a legal document.
In point three: I agree
In point four: Balance is the key. We all have different points of balance - as long as we keep our eye on balance this will all work out. We just need to keep our eye out for people not interested in improving the article but interested in inserting a particular POV. Using this as a kind of bulletin board.
In point five: I apologize if I insulted anyone by inferring they were vandals. I am just committed that we keep improving the article and not get swept up in POV wars.
Thanks!
Alex Jackl 03:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe this is a tricky piece - things have changed. We now have more accurate data and if data exists we should stick totally to authoratative sources. I have stated before that journalist's opinions that are not backed up by primary sources are "guy in a bar" kind of references. If the person speaking doesn't attribute and has no expertise in the subject they should not be in an encyclopedia. I am in agreement that false data or speculative data not be included. However we don't want to get too crazy about. Alex Jackl 14:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I made some corrections and reorganized the section. It was completely unbalanced and bordering on inflammatory with the majority of the section making reference to books, web pages and people who had made references to LE in them, thus indicating that there may be some truth to it being a cult simply because some book had a section or some website had a page. That would be "guilt by mention" and just because the name of a person or company shows up in someones book or on someones web page about ANY subject doesn't connect them to that subject in reality. That's what sensational journalism is always looking to do, but Wikipedia, intending to be an encyclopedia, cannot have such biased entries. The option was to take all those lines out but in the interest of keeping it balanced I chose to rework the section so both "sides" were represented.
I reorganized this information and put what was under Labor Practices under a new heading Landmark Education in France. After reading these sections it is obvious that an area of "controversy" (which is what this section is about) is the French thing AND the section about Berlin (formerly under "Legal Status") has no relevance. Those lines simply indicate that the Berlin Senate at one time classified Landmark as espousing a "religious world view" - if that were true it is clearly irrelevant in a section called Legal Status - and now countered themselves and now call Landmark a "provider of life assistance." All irrelevant so I removed it. This subsection is now consistent with the intent of this main section.
To be consistent the heading doesn't work inside the overall section and implies some list of allegations. The section has one allegation followed by one strong counter by an expert who clearly states that it is not brainwashing. More appropriate to this controversy section and to what is actually happening in this sub-section, I changed the heading.
Smeelgova; It looks like you just took some irrelevant information that I removed from another sub-heading where it didn't belong and dropped it here. It is still irrelevant. That whole thing about "pulling the strings" that you are committed to just baffles me, in the realm of someone contributing to an encyclopedia. It is a sensational quote pulled from an article where an electronics engineer in Colorado was giving his opinion:
"Landmark alumnus Walter Plywaski, a Colorado electronics engineer who took on the company after his daughter ran up a $3,000 tab on courses, thinks Erhard is still pulling the strings."
How does that qualify to be included in an encyclopedia article?
Also, what relevance is it that former staff members of one organization now work for another one, even if they are family members? How does that equate to financial ties. If I hired the accountant of my former company to do my personal accounting while I was an employee there, then left that company, but still use that accountant. . . does that give me financial ties to my former employer? This seems to be what you are saying by putting those peoples names here. If you want them listed in the article, the only possible place they could go is under some "current management personnel" section and even then I am not sure how relevant that would be, or who is going to take the time to keep it current when changes are made.
Also, how does the fact that Landmark put up a favorable site for Erhard, when they have already acknowledged that they respect the contribution he has made and since they use the "technology" they bought from him, equate to financial ties?
Also, you show no source for what is obviously confidential information; licensing fees paid and technology reverting in 2009, as an example. You provide a link to an old MetroActive article (The est of Friends) in which the author has the exact paragraph that you have put in your edit, without even updating it, by the way (I am sure Erhard is no longer 63). The author doesn't give a source for that confidential information either. So far as I know, Landmark is a privately held company and unless you (or she) got that information from them or Erhard directly, you are claiming to know (and worse, pass on) something you do not know. Otherwise, you would quote the real source.
This kind of work on this site that is sure to corrupt it and ruin the intention. THIS IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA. Your opinions, or worse, someone elses opinions passed off as the truth, do not belong here. There are other places to register your opinions. As far as I am concerned your intentions are counter to the intention of this resource. The first thing that I was impressed by when I first looked at Wikipedia was their statement that this is not a place for expressing your own opinions. I request you stop doing that, and stop using others as if they are facts. Dante C 16:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I took out "Sudbud" and "Hypnosis" as there is NO direct link of these to Landmarks programs. I am curious to know who put them here and on what basis? It occurs that any Philosophical References regarding Landmark's programs need to come from Landmark, and therefore, frankly I question ALL the others listed here unless someone from Landmark or some one else can say why there are here, BUT there is no indication of a source for this information in this section. I recommend removing this entire section really, but make these changes for now.
Whether another user agreed to your changing my edits back or not (I am in communication with them to find out if they did agree) what you keep trying to put in this section, which I keep removing, has NOTHING to do with this section and / or is not sourced. I am still waiting for you to provide an accurate source for the claim that technology reverts to Werner Erhard in 2009. You cannot use the Time article for this as that author didn't quote her sources either, in an article that was clearly slanted negatively against Landmark. I say again, neither you nor she could possibly have that information.
And, you repeat information which is also listed in the section immediately above this one; Current Involvement. And, you keep refering to Erhard as 63 years old - I know that that's not possible. And, you make claims for something about the Mexico deal which was "later revealed". . . by whom?
I don't think you have a clear idea of what Wikipedia is trying to do and I don't mean to be persona but your writing and quoting non sourced articles from magazines (no less) and from clearly biased articles (no less) is nothing more than polite mud slinging. This works for magazines, newspapers, the National Enquirer but just not here. An encyclopedia is nothing and useless at best, and dangerous at worst (given it is used for reference material by many people), if it is not accurate and the material included in each article relevant to the topic.
As I said before, there are plenty of places for you to get your opinion accross about Erhard, Landmark or anything else you have an opinion about. I request that you respect the opportunity that Wikipedia is and work inside the guidelines they have set out.
I believe that many, if not most, of Smeelgova's external links violate this wikipedia guideline:
DaveApter 18:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed a quote that was represented as if it was a viable source regarding Werner Erhard's supposed involvement. As I explained before, the Time magazine quote of an electonics engineer from Colorado expressing his OPINION that Erhard is "pulling the strings" is CLEARLY someone adding inaccurate / unsourced information as if it were the opinion of "some claim" vs. one person, not qualified to say, expressing his opinion. Dante C
Regarding your attempt to continue to add the irrelevant information about Erhards personal attorney (though I doubt you have talked with Erhard or Schreiber directly to see if they still have that relationship), even if it is true, it is still not relevant. Who cares? and Why would they? Why would someone interested in looking up information about a company IN AN ENCYCLOPEDIA (by the way) care about the possibility that the former owner's attorney is still on the board of directors of said company? How does that equate to that former owners Current Involvement? This section is about Erhards Current Involvement not Schreibers. If you have a reason for including such seemingly irrelevant information you should explain the relevance or make the connection which demonstrates "current involvement." Since you do neither, and until you do, this type of information doesn't belong here.
In addition, your inference that Erhard is "currently involved" because Landmark started the website on him is stretching it, albeit clever. . . as accurate as that information may be, it is still not relevant. Please add "relevant" to your editing of this article vs. just accurate. This kind of unnecessary, irrelevant information just bogs down the article. Unless or until you can make a case for including speculations, inferences and opinions as relevant to the article, I request you keep them out. Dante C 16:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I have added sources, in blockquoted citation format, to the Werner Erhard section. These sources are reputable, and in fact the New York Magazine source includes information from CEO Harry Rosenberg regarding the purchases from Erhard in 2001. Smeelgova 15:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I've placed an Template:NPOV tag on this article, as well as in a particular section. There is an excess of "promotional" language taken apparently from Landmark Education itself, rather than neutral language from reliable sources about the organization. In general, articles should cite assertions, particularly controversial ones, and such citations should preferably be publications not produced by the subject of the article, or those involved with the subject. Additionally, care must be taken when using POV verbs such as "claims", "maintains", "asserts"-- all of which are attributed nebulously to "Landmark Education". See: Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Claim_and_other_synonyms_for_say -- Leflyman Talk 01:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
In reading through this article, this is the first section I saw that made no sense and is inappropriate for what is supposed to be an encyclopedia article. It's not neutral at all and looks mostly like hearsay ("some critics say" or "supporters say"), etc. It ignores the section above by DYG and their findings and quotes Langone regarding LGATP's which is irrelevant to this article. Since Langone isn't quoted about Landmark, the LGATP information belongs on a page for that subject if someone wants to add one. This section of the article isn't NPOV as well as being poorly written and makes no point worthy of referencing for someone wanting to use this article for reference material. It looks like a recent editor called for sources to be cited on the "some critics" and "supporters say" lines, so if someone can provide those it may be worth adding this section back in. WBLman 01:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I combined some sections to eliminate redundancy. The History title was at the bottom of the article just floating there with no related information before or after it, so I moved it to the top of the article and combined the Naming and Timeline section under the heading History since both of those sections contain only historical information. I also removed the line "For information about pre Landmark entities see. . . " which was under the previous Timeline section because that information and those links were already just above in the pre-edited format and I left them there in my edit. WBLman 18:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
First, some disclosure: I have done the Landmark Forum and Seminar Series, and while I did enjoy and benefit from them, I do consider some of their marketing tactics dubious, and I challenge their claim they do not espouse an ideology.
What this is about is the positioning of positive and negative comments about Landmark. It appears that the negative comments are usually placed first, with the (probably unintentional) consequence that they appear to be refuted by the subsequent positive claims. Section-by-section, in every relevant case:
Academic studies: first study positive (pro-Landmark), second study negative (anti-Landmark); next three positive. Also, every single one of these studies was commissioned by Landmark, quoted from the Landmark website, or both. This is hardly independent and verifiable.
Is it a cult?: first two comments negative; next three positive
Landmark in France: first sentence negative, rest of paragraph positive; second paragragh largely negative
Landmark in Berlin: first sentence negative, rest of paragraph positive
Clergy and Landmark: all positive (so why put it in? There must have been some dispute in the first place)
Is it brainwashing?: first paragraph negative; second paragraph positive; third paragraph somewhat negative; rest of section strongly positive (an eminent psychiatrist? Says who? He's not eminent enough to have a Wikipedia entry!)
Large Group Awareness Training: effectively negative (assuming that LGAT is a bad thing, which is the implication)
Lawsuits against Landmark: first example ends with Landmark's analysis of the case (!); second ends with an obscure external link; third is effectively negative
Lawsuits brought by Landmark: first case positive (what was the defamation?); second case strongly positive (why choose that testimony to include?); third case negative; fourth case negative; fifth case not clearly positive or negative.
Registration Pressure: first quote negative; second quote positive.
As you can see, it's not a 100% correlation, but I think it reads with even more bias than this list indicates. Pending vehement objections, I will make some edits to the article in the near future to better achieve what I see as NPOV. Ckerr 10:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
OK with me. In concept. Though I am not clear as to how you plan to address it. -- Epeefleche 11:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not willing to attempt editing a hotly debated article like this but I'd like to urge that some short statement of the controversy be put near the very beginning of the article, e.g. "proponents say the forums make positive changes in people's lives; critics accuse it of being cult-like". IMO the early history (i.e. the early connection to Est) should also be mentioned at the top of the article. This is a very weak article since it says nothing til halfway through about what the controversies mentioned in the introduction actually are. Phr ( talk) 09:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Imagine an article that said "there is no hard evidence that Ramon Martinez has any direct current involvement with the Los Angeles Dodgers, other than that he plays second base for the team." If you can see why that is odd, you should be able to see why "there is no hard evidence that Erhard has any direct current involvement with the operations of Landmark Education, other than his consulting with Landmark" is also odd. I changed the article to simply state what his involmemnt is, without editorializing on whether there is "hard evidence" of "direct current involvement with the operations," which smacks of original resarch.
I also deleted redundant statements. -- Sparkman1 05:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
My sister just attended a Landmark Forum. I come to this article out of curiosity, and from a neutral point of view, being neither for nor against LE.
I am not surprised the neutrality of this article is under dispute.
The section on controversies is euphemistic, and the language used to discuss lawsuits filed against Landmark Education is clearly written from a biased point of view: The plaintives' claims are treated in a perjorative tone; the plaintives' legal failure is, firstly, treated as a matter of course, and secondly, assumed to be a repudiatation of the veracity of those claims. This second fact is--obviously--a non sequitur.
I am assuming that the intention of the pro-LE contributors to this article was to dissuade readers that LE has any similarities to a cult. Speaking for myself, the bias slant they (and who else could it be?) have given the article brings a negative return on that intention.
There's nothing wrong with advocating Landmark Education. But Wikipedia is NOT NOT NOT the place to do it.
Get. A. Blog.
Meanwhile, this article is screaming out for a complete rewrite. At the moment the article just oozes a pro-Landmark Education point of view and reads like something from the official website, wherever that is.
Also, I added the name of the founder Werner Erhard to the introduction and cited, under the controversies section, the accusations of sexual abuse and tax evasion (from the Wikipedia article on him).
As an article that is supposed to be aiming to be NPOV, this is atrocious! I've read many of the comments here. There are some people who are conscientiously trying very hard to produce an NPOV article, and there are people who don't understand the genre of an encyclopedic article, who don't understand NPOV, who don't understand Wikipedia's policies, who are doing nothing but get in the way of arriving at an NPOV article. With a subject this controversial, both sides should be factually presented, and the reader should be unable to determine from the article's content whether either POV is superior. That is not being done here. Editing is far too agenda-driven in promoting Landmark Education. They've got their own website to do that. This is an encyclopedia! Kat'n'Yarn 07:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)