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In the very start it says this - "Similar in type to other female monsters from Greco-Roman myth, such as the empuses and the mormolyces, she is distinguished from them by her description as half-woman and half-serpent." And the source of which is this page - http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Lamia.html
But as I've read, there is no mention whatsoever of any 'serpent' form.
I suggest the text be changed to reflect this, seeing how it's just simply a case of someone writing what they 'think' and then being linked to a source which in NO way backs the idea up. 202.42.98.24 ( talk) 02:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I could swear I'd heard of lamia who were lions with human head/breasts, covered in scales, and occasionally bearing dragon wings. Where did that come from? Mytho-biology seems to be fraught with these mystery monsters named after better-known unrelated things.
I saw once in a Spanish textbook what seemed to be four pictures of creatures in some form of South/Central Native American mythology. One of them was labeled, "Lamia" and had a picture of what looked like a hybrid between a snake and a duck. -- 70.114.239.33 22:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC) (Please forgive me if in any way this is the wrong format; I've never used this before.
earned the mechanics of citation, but that's no reason to delete a whole section of information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Baligant ( talk • contribs) 07:21:50, August 19, 2007 (UTC).
Could we perhaps use a different image for the Lamia (at the top). While it is a nice and famous painting, it does not display any accurate info about the Lamia (its just a woman. almost looks like he could be depicting an average nymph.) Perhaps we could find a more suitable image. Canutethegreat ( talk) 21:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Can someone either rewrite the material about "Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles" and "Flyff" coherently, with some context, or remove it? As it is, it is probably not comprehensible to one reader in twenty. (e.g. "she will continue to heal her husband just before he is KO'd, and debuff the player(s) with her Slow spells.") - Jmabel | Talk 01:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this page should be located simply at Lamia, since it's likely the most common meaning. — Feezo (Talk) 19:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Removing original research and attempting to clarify article. Tulpa 08:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
On the removal of Lempriere's Dictionary, I quote WP:V: "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves. (See below.) Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources." as Lempriere's dictionary fulfills the criteria of having a poor reputation for fact-checking, with what editorial oversight it had adding to that poor reputation. Tulpa 22:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
By the way, citation needed for the notoriety of the relationship between Demetrius and the Courtesan. One source that notes it on a single page does not constitute notoriety. Tulpa 22:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Moved some of trivial details into infobox. The last one I don't know what to do with, as it's a meaningless piece of info without a source that explains the connection to hypocrisy. Otherwise I would move it to Interpretations. Tulpa 03:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm taking this whole thing out because it's an unsourced mess that seems completely made up. Feel free to find sources for it. Proserpine 08:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
This section needs additional citations for
verification. (August 2007) |
In the modern Greek folk tradition, the Lamia has survived and retained many of her traditional attributes. John Cuthbert Lawson comments, "....the chief characteristics of the Lamiae, apart from their thirst for blood, are their uncleanliness, their gluttony, and their stupidity" (Lawson, Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion: A Study in Survivals). The contemporary Greek proverb, "της Λάμιας τα σαρώματα" ("the Lamia's sweeping"), epitomises slovenliness citation needed; and the common expression, "τό παιδί τό 'πνιξε η Λάμια" ("the child has been strangled by the Lamia") citation needed, explains the sudden death of young children (ibid). As in Bulgarian folklore and Basque legends, the Lamia in Greece is often associated with caves and damp places.
In modern Greek folk tales, Lamia is an ogress similar to Baba-Yaga. citation needed She lives in a remote house or tower. She eats human flesh and has magical abilities, keeps magical objects or knows information crucial to the hero of the tale's quest. The hero must avoid her, trick her or gain her favour in order to obtain one of those. In some tales, the lamia has a daughter who is also a magician and helps the hero, eventually falling in love with him. citation needed
In 1492 Poliziano gave the title Lamia to an introductory lecture on Aristotle's Prior Analyrics. If anyone who has read it can add a remark on Poliziano's apprehension of Lamia, that induced this odd choice of title, that would enrich the article.-- Wetman ( talk) 06:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there any mention to worship of Lamia today in the occult? I hear it talked about but any data? (anon.)
Citation has been requested for the statement In Renaissance emblems, Lamia has the body of a serpent and breasts and head of a woman, like the image of hypocrisy. I'm trying to recall an article published c. 1970 (Burlington Magazine?) on an allegorical representation of fraus (hypocrisy, fraud) described as I've mentioned, in a French C16 painting as I recall; the article discussed its iconography. I can't find it searching JSTOR. Can anyone help? -- Wetman ( talk) 22:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone had rewritten the myth section (mostly the section from Diodorus Siculus) in a way that was conversational and jarring. I've attempted to rewrite it in a more encyclopedic fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proserpine ( talk • contribs) 21:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Ogden's 2013a and 2013b makes things a lot clearer.
On "Lamia eating her own children when Horace suggests it himself
" by
Moby-Dick3000, this is a possible alternate reading of
Duris of Samos.
Lamia's parentage Belus and Libye got deleted in the interim but I put it back. The source is not Diodorus but Scholium to Aristophanes Peace. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 10:28, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Lamia - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 04:20, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
The Lamiai article seems like it would fit better within this one. It seems that Lamiai is just a derivative of the Lamia myth, and would be better treated here instead of as a separate article (I've also seen sources that refer to Lamiai as simply a plural of Lamia) -- KarlB ( talk) 17:56, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I don't know Ancient Greek, but I checked Loeb version of 'The Wasps' with the parallel greek text, ~1177 line is 'πρωτον μεν ως η Λαμι αλουσ επερδετο' about 'how Lamia spluttered when they caught her' (in another, more rude, translation 'Lamia, seeing herself caught, let fly a fart'), the Greek text doesn't have any λαιμός word nearby, only the name of the monster, nothing about gullets either.
May be it was some scholiast on Aristophanes, anyway it needs clarification IMO. 217.118.64.61 ( talk) 14:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
This article conflates two apparently different Lamia, the daughter of Poseidon, who was the mother by Zeus of the Libyan Sibyl, and a child stealing monster (see Pierre Grimal, Dictionary of Classical Mythology, pp. 248–449; also Smith Lamia 1. Lamia 2.).
The mid-19th s:DGRA analogizes Lamia with vampire on a couple of places. But mid-19th century notion of it is that of "flesh-eater" (and obolete) viz:
In La'mia "In later times Lamiae.. enjoy their fresh, youthful, and pure flesh and blood.. thus in ancient times what the vampires are in modern legends".
In Empu'sa: "The Lamiae and Mormolyceia, who assumed the form of handsome women for the purpose of attracting young men, and then sucked their blood like vampyrs and ate their flesh, were reckoned among the Empusae."
The second entry does say "sucked their blood", but that part of it is spurious insofar as it is not verifiable to a primary source. The two primary sources it cites, "Philostratus" Vit. Apoll. 4.25, [2] and Suidas s. v., [3] but neither says anything on this. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 23:36, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
Seemingly spurrious claim that Lamia sang to attract children. Two books
[4]
[5] state this.
Both source (and even quote out of) Plutarch Curisosities 2, [6] but mention of singing is absent.
Just tabling it for now. I haven't included in the article.-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 05:57, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Since Apuleis applies "lamiae" to other beings at another place (Book 5), it has been suggested the word is "not a formal classification" but a "pejorative expression", by Stannish & Doran (2013), p. 117. Resnick & Kitchell (2007) [7] partly concedes, and says lamiae just means 'those bitches' in the second instance.
When Wetman added "The Elizabethan translator William Adlington rendered lamiae as "hags", obscuring the reference for generations of readers." the latter part is POV.
Accordingly I removed the underlined portion because it was not a properly sourced POV statment. The citation was sloppy (no author or page number given) and I could not confirm it due to non-availability of preview. So it may be just WP:OR for all I can tell.-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 15:58, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Should definitely be added to the entry 8.9.87.250 ( talk) 02:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Lamia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
In the very start it says this - "Similar in type to other female monsters from Greco-Roman myth, such as the empuses and the mormolyces, she is distinguished from them by her description as half-woman and half-serpent." And the source of which is this page - http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Lamia.html
But as I've read, there is no mention whatsoever of any 'serpent' form.
I suggest the text be changed to reflect this, seeing how it's just simply a case of someone writing what they 'think' and then being linked to a source which in NO way backs the idea up. 202.42.98.24 ( talk) 02:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I could swear I'd heard of lamia who were lions with human head/breasts, covered in scales, and occasionally bearing dragon wings. Where did that come from? Mytho-biology seems to be fraught with these mystery monsters named after better-known unrelated things.
I saw once in a Spanish textbook what seemed to be four pictures of creatures in some form of South/Central Native American mythology. One of them was labeled, "Lamia" and had a picture of what looked like a hybrid between a snake and a duck. -- 70.114.239.33 22:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC) (Please forgive me if in any way this is the wrong format; I've never used this before.
earned the mechanics of citation, but that's no reason to delete a whole section of information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Baligant ( talk • contribs) 07:21:50, August 19, 2007 (UTC).
Could we perhaps use a different image for the Lamia (at the top). While it is a nice and famous painting, it does not display any accurate info about the Lamia (its just a woman. almost looks like he could be depicting an average nymph.) Perhaps we could find a more suitable image. Canutethegreat ( talk) 21:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Can someone either rewrite the material about "Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles" and "Flyff" coherently, with some context, or remove it? As it is, it is probably not comprehensible to one reader in twenty. (e.g. "she will continue to heal her husband just before he is KO'd, and debuff the player(s) with her Slow spells.") - Jmabel | Talk 01:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this page should be located simply at Lamia, since it's likely the most common meaning. — Feezo (Talk) 19:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Removing original research and attempting to clarify article. Tulpa 08:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
On the removal of Lempriere's Dictionary, I quote WP:V: "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves. (See below.) Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources." as Lempriere's dictionary fulfills the criteria of having a poor reputation for fact-checking, with what editorial oversight it had adding to that poor reputation. Tulpa 22:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
By the way, citation needed for the notoriety of the relationship between Demetrius and the Courtesan. One source that notes it on a single page does not constitute notoriety. Tulpa 22:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Moved some of trivial details into infobox. The last one I don't know what to do with, as it's a meaningless piece of info without a source that explains the connection to hypocrisy. Otherwise I would move it to Interpretations. Tulpa 03:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm taking this whole thing out because it's an unsourced mess that seems completely made up. Feel free to find sources for it. Proserpine 08:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
This section needs additional citations for
verification. (August 2007) |
In the modern Greek folk tradition, the Lamia has survived and retained many of her traditional attributes. John Cuthbert Lawson comments, "....the chief characteristics of the Lamiae, apart from their thirst for blood, are their uncleanliness, their gluttony, and their stupidity" (Lawson, Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion: A Study in Survivals). The contemporary Greek proverb, "της Λάμιας τα σαρώματα" ("the Lamia's sweeping"), epitomises slovenliness citation needed; and the common expression, "τό παιδί τό 'πνιξε η Λάμια" ("the child has been strangled by the Lamia") citation needed, explains the sudden death of young children (ibid). As in Bulgarian folklore and Basque legends, the Lamia in Greece is often associated with caves and damp places.
In modern Greek folk tales, Lamia is an ogress similar to Baba-Yaga. citation needed She lives in a remote house or tower. She eats human flesh and has magical abilities, keeps magical objects or knows information crucial to the hero of the tale's quest. The hero must avoid her, trick her or gain her favour in order to obtain one of those. In some tales, the lamia has a daughter who is also a magician and helps the hero, eventually falling in love with him. citation needed
In 1492 Poliziano gave the title Lamia to an introductory lecture on Aristotle's Prior Analyrics. If anyone who has read it can add a remark on Poliziano's apprehension of Lamia, that induced this odd choice of title, that would enrich the article.-- Wetman ( talk) 06:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there any mention to worship of Lamia today in the occult? I hear it talked about but any data? (anon.)
Citation has been requested for the statement In Renaissance emblems, Lamia has the body of a serpent and breasts and head of a woman, like the image of hypocrisy. I'm trying to recall an article published c. 1970 (Burlington Magazine?) on an allegorical representation of fraus (hypocrisy, fraud) described as I've mentioned, in a French C16 painting as I recall; the article discussed its iconography. I can't find it searching JSTOR. Can anyone help? -- Wetman ( talk) 22:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone had rewritten the myth section (mostly the section from Diodorus Siculus) in a way that was conversational and jarring. I've attempted to rewrite it in a more encyclopedic fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proserpine ( talk • contribs) 21:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Ogden's 2013a and 2013b makes things a lot clearer.
On "Lamia eating her own children when Horace suggests it himself
" by
Moby-Dick3000, this is a possible alternate reading of
Duris of Samos.
Lamia's parentage Belus and Libye got deleted in the interim but I put it back. The source is not Diodorus but Scholium to Aristophanes Peace. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 10:28, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Lamia - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 04:20, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
The Lamiai article seems like it would fit better within this one. It seems that Lamiai is just a derivative of the Lamia myth, and would be better treated here instead of as a separate article (I've also seen sources that refer to Lamiai as simply a plural of Lamia) -- KarlB ( talk) 17:56, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I don't know Ancient Greek, but I checked Loeb version of 'The Wasps' with the parallel greek text, ~1177 line is 'πρωτον μεν ως η Λαμι αλουσ επερδετο' about 'how Lamia spluttered when they caught her' (in another, more rude, translation 'Lamia, seeing herself caught, let fly a fart'), the Greek text doesn't have any λαιμός word nearby, only the name of the monster, nothing about gullets either.
May be it was some scholiast on Aristophanes, anyway it needs clarification IMO. 217.118.64.61 ( talk) 14:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
This article conflates two apparently different Lamia, the daughter of Poseidon, who was the mother by Zeus of the Libyan Sibyl, and a child stealing monster (see Pierre Grimal, Dictionary of Classical Mythology, pp. 248–449; also Smith Lamia 1. Lamia 2.).
The mid-19th s:DGRA analogizes Lamia with vampire on a couple of places. But mid-19th century notion of it is that of "flesh-eater" (and obolete) viz:
In La'mia "In later times Lamiae.. enjoy their fresh, youthful, and pure flesh and blood.. thus in ancient times what the vampires are in modern legends".
In Empu'sa: "The Lamiae and Mormolyceia, who assumed the form of handsome women for the purpose of attracting young men, and then sucked their blood like vampyrs and ate their flesh, were reckoned among the Empusae."
The second entry does say "sucked their blood", but that part of it is spurious insofar as it is not verifiable to a primary source. The two primary sources it cites, "Philostratus" Vit. Apoll. 4.25, [2] and Suidas s. v., [3] but neither says anything on this. -- Kiyoweap ( talk) 23:36, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
Seemingly spurrious claim that Lamia sang to attract children. Two books
[4]
[5] state this.
Both source (and even quote out of) Plutarch Curisosities 2, [6] but mention of singing is absent.
Just tabling it for now. I haven't included in the article.-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 05:57, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Since Apuleis applies "lamiae" to other beings at another place (Book 5), it has been suggested the word is "not a formal classification" but a "pejorative expression", by Stannish & Doran (2013), p. 117. Resnick & Kitchell (2007) [7] partly concedes, and says lamiae just means 'those bitches' in the second instance.
When Wetman added "The Elizabethan translator William Adlington rendered lamiae as "hags", obscuring the reference for generations of readers." the latter part is POV.
Accordingly I removed the underlined portion because it was not a properly sourced POV statment. The citation was sloppy (no author or page number given) and I could not confirm it due to non-availability of preview. So it may be just WP:OR for all I can tell.-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 15:58, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Should definitely be added to the entry 8.9.87.250 ( talk) 02:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)