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Isn't the "Further Reading" section a little heavy on the Celto-Skeptics? No Barry Cunliffe, Peter Berresford Ellis, or David Rankin, for examples? Stevo343 ( talk) 14:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The map has errors on it. The Scordisci are placed far too north. They resided in the region of modern day [[[Belgrade]], not in Hungary. Secondly, the Dardanians were even farther south, in Kosovo... and they weren't Celtic, but Thraco-Illyrian. Hxseek ( talk) 06:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
The fact that ancient greekor roman authors called this or that people Keltoi or galli does not show that that people was celt speaking people in the way we mean today. Romans and especially greeks called EVERY nordic people with blond hair Keltoi but we know that having blond hair does not mean genetic proximity or even ethnic comunity. So it is inappropriate to relate ancient Keltoi to modern celts as it would be to relate swedish people with blond hair (one is ethnic indentifier the other is a Physical aspect)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.6.34.106 ( talk) 17:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
"In Vix, France, an elite woman of the 6th century BCE was buried with a bronze cauldron made in Greece." Does this mean the Vix Krater, a wine-mixing vessel made in Magna Graecia? Johnbod ( talk) 05:15, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Moving the conversation here from Johnbod as it relates to articles.
Hmm, thanks for the link. I reviewed this essay (not a policy!) in detail and I fail to see the connection. We are not talking about fanatical fans or something remotely related here but about relevant projects to the article. Among the most relevant of all it was Wikipedia:WikiProject European history, as La Tène culture spans a large area of Europe. Regarding Dacians just interacting with Celts (less then Romans), they were actually part of the La Tène culture, together with Illyrians and others, granted the core is deemed to be "Swiss Celts" (the only connections you wish to keep here). If you care to review this list of historical monuments and archaeological site in Romania (by county), you will see the multitude and large spread of La Tène settlements, some of which are Dacian, Getae, and some obviously Celtic, or mixed. I don't suggest 25 projects (I added just a few) but {{ WikiProjectBannerShell}} can be used to collapse them anyway. I believe in fundamentals of collaboration and inclusionism, and fail to see how deletionism can be constructive. I am really trying hard to understand your point but I can't. But you are an admin and a major contributor, so I'll give you credit for that. But I do plan to add content about La Tène settlements in Romania. I hope you don't have an issue with that. -- Codrin.B ( talk) 17:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the Image:Hallstatt LaTene.png from the article, as it incorrectly shows the extent of the La Tène (I've spotted it accidentally that it went beyond Sava in Slovenia; [1] COBISS 21681709) and Hallstatt culture (see Talk:Hallstatt culture) and there are some other mistakes, described above at this talk page (see #Map). -- Eleassar my talk 10:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Eleassar is cleary operating under completely unrealistic assumptions concerning the accuracy with which the boundaries of archaeological cultures can or should be given. This is a map for thumbnail use. Any "boundary" should not be taken to be accurate to less than at least 50 km or so. If you do a poll on published maps delineating the Hallstatt culture (or any other archaeological culture) you will find that they will differ. This will not necessarily indicate a "controversy". You could spend a month doing a meta-study of scatter plots of the boundaries you find in published maps, or you could simply accept that the purpose of these maps is no more and no less than to give a rough indication of territorial extent.
I have no problem with these maps [5] [6] Draw free versions of these in acceptable quality and obviously we are going to use them.
You need to step away from your parochial approach. Jembana, being from Iberia, obsesses about the Celtiberians and nothing else. Eleassar, being from Slovenia, obsesses about the exact boundary in Slovenia but could not care less about Gaul or Iberia. If you would use your "local" expertise to collaborate, that would be fine. Instead, you try to try to bring your parochial fixation to dominate the general topic. This is both harmful and amateurish. Sure, we can add or remove a few pixels in Slovenia if you insist. But this is a diachronic map covering a culture which spans five centuries, not a detailed map of Celtic finds in Slovenia labelled by calibrated radiocarbon year. -- dab (𒁳) 07:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
look, I'll happily update the Hallstatt boundary to conincide with a reference you give me. I am just not prepared to do this city-by-city, as everyone from the Balkans joins the discussion demanding that their hometown is added as "Celtic" individually. Will this map be acceptable as a point of departure?
Also, why are we discussing Hallstatt boundaries on Talk:La Tène culture? Are you happy with the La Tène boundary as shown or do you want that altered too? -- dab (𒁳) 12:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Is it known what mitochondrial and Y haplotypes did the people of this culture have? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.233.232 ( talk) 15:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Seeing that the Roman period inscriptions are closer to Basque than to Gaulish, & the area become known as Gascony [ versus Wascony to the south] wherefore are Aquitanians Celts? AptitudeDesign( talk) 09:11, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by AptitudeDesign ( talk • contribs) 09:05, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
At the moment the article includes the statement "La Tène cultural material appeared over a large area, including parts of Ireland and Great Britain", without any reference. The rest of the article, and also the map, do not show any La Tene influence in Ireland or most of Britain. Can someone provide a reference, or else delete this contradictory statement? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.107.41 ( talk) 10:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
It's confusing, and the borders of archaeological cultures are not well-defined anyway. La Tène artefacts were found far afield, in places that are not part of the archaeological La Tène culture proper. There are La Tène finds in Britain, but Britain was not part of La Tène culture proper. The same goes for Poland, northern Germany and Scandinavia.
La Tène corresponds to late or mature Continental Celtic, or Gaulish at its core. The early Celtic or Proto-Celtic expansion took place during the Hallstatt period. The early Celts reached Iberia and Britain before the developments of the core Celtic areal after c. 500 BC, so Britain, Iberia and Croatia are part of the Hallstatt horizon, but not part of the La Tène one. -- dab (𒁳) 17:24, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
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Regarding this assertion: Herodotus (iv.49) correctly placed Keltoi at the source of the Ister/Danube, in the heartland of La Tène material culture: "The Ister flows right across Europe, rising in the country of the Celts".
Herodotus asserts the exact inverse of what is asserted, namely that he thinks the Danube starts where the Celts live (near the Pyrenees and south of Iberia near the Cynesians if you read the full quote). In the full quote Herodotus is talking about rivers, and using peoples as references, not the other way around. He talks about how he thinks the Nile starts in West Africa and cuts across Africa then goes north just symmetrically to what he thinks the Danube does, namely start in West(ern most) Europe (near Cynesians and the Pyrenees) and cut across Europe before going south. The assertion currently in the article is a famously incorrect reading of Herodotus' quote that even other parts of wikipedia get it right already, namely the article on the Celts itself. Please help correct this common misconception. Thank you. 2604:2000:C680:8700:D019:DDA:C1B2:7788 ( talk) 04:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
This
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Reporting errors |
Isn't the "Further Reading" section a little heavy on the Celto-Skeptics? No Barry Cunliffe, Peter Berresford Ellis, or David Rankin, for examples? Stevo343 ( talk) 14:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The map has errors on it. The Scordisci are placed far too north. They resided in the region of modern day [[[Belgrade]], not in Hungary. Secondly, the Dardanians were even farther south, in Kosovo... and they weren't Celtic, but Thraco-Illyrian. Hxseek ( talk) 06:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
The fact that ancient greekor roman authors called this or that people Keltoi or galli does not show that that people was celt speaking people in the way we mean today. Romans and especially greeks called EVERY nordic people with blond hair Keltoi but we know that having blond hair does not mean genetic proximity or even ethnic comunity. So it is inappropriate to relate ancient Keltoi to modern celts as it would be to relate swedish people with blond hair (one is ethnic indentifier the other is a Physical aspect)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.6.34.106 ( talk) 17:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
"In Vix, France, an elite woman of the 6th century BCE was buried with a bronze cauldron made in Greece." Does this mean the Vix Krater, a wine-mixing vessel made in Magna Graecia? Johnbod ( talk) 05:15, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Moving the conversation here from Johnbod as it relates to articles.
Hmm, thanks for the link. I reviewed this essay (not a policy!) in detail and I fail to see the connection. We are not talking about fanatical fans or something remotely related here but about relevant projects to the article. Among the most relevant of all it was Wikipedia:WikiProject European history, as La Tène culture spans a large area of Europe. Regarding Dacians just interacting with Celts (less then Romans), they were actually part of the La Tène culture, together with Illyrians and others, granted the core is deemed to be "Swiss Celts" (the only connections you wish to keep here). If you care to review this list of historical monuments and archaeological site in Romania (by county), you will see the multitude and large spread of La Tène settlements, some of which are Dacian, Getae, and some obviously Celtic, or mixed. I don't suggest 25 projects (I added just a few) but {{ WikiProjectBannerShell}} can be used to collapse them anyway. I believe in fundamentals of collaboration and inclusionism, and fail to see how deletionism can be constructive. I am really trying hard to understand your point but I can't. But you are an admin and a major contributor, so I'll give you credit for that. But I do plan to add content about La Tène settlements in Romania. I hope you don't have an issue with that. -- Codrin.B ( talk) 17:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the Image:Hallstatt LaTene.png from the article, as it incorrectly shows the extent of the La Tène (I've spotted it accidentally that it went beyond Sava in Slovenia; [1] COBISS 21681709) and Hallstatt culture (see Talk:Hallstatt culture) and there are some other mistakes, described above at this talk page (see #Map). -- Eleassar my talk 10:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Eleassar is cleary operating under completely unrealistic assumptions concerning the accuracy with which the boundaries of archaeological cultures can or should be given. This is a map for thumbnail use. Any "boundary" should not be taken to be accurate to less than at least 50 km or so. If you do a poll on published maps delineating the Hallstatt culture (or any other archaeological culture) you will find that they will differ. This will not necessarily indicate a "controversy". You could spend a month doing a meta-study of scatter plots of the boundaries you find in published maps, or you could simply accept that the purpose of these maps is no more and no less than to give a rough indication of territorial extent.
I have no problem with these maps [5] [6] Draw free versions of these in acceptable quality and obviously we are going to use them.
You need to step away from your parochial approach. Jembana, being from Iberia, obsesses about the Celtiberians and nothing else. Eleassar, being from Slovenia, obsesses about the exact boundary in Slovenia but could not care less about Gaul or Iberia. If you would use your "local" expertise to collaborate, that would be fine. Instead, you try to try to bring your parochial fixation to dominate the general topic. This is both harmful and amateurish. Sure, we can add or remove a few pixels in Slovenia if you insist. But this is a diachronic map covering a culture which spans five centuries, not a detailed map of Celtic finds in Slovenia labelled by calibrated radiocarbon year. -- dab (𒁳) 07:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
look, I'll happily update the Hallstatt boundary to conincide with a reference you give me. I am just not prepared to do this city-by-city, as everyone from the Balkans joins the discussion demanding that their hometown is added as "Celtic" individually. Will this map be acceptable as a point of departure?
Also, why are we discussing Hallstatt boundaries on Talk:La Tène culture? Are you happy with the La Tène boundary as shown or do you want that altered too? -- dab (𒁳) 12:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Is it known what mitochondrial and Y haplotypes did the people of this culture have? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.233.232 ( talk) 15:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Seeing that the Roman period inscriptions are closer to Basque than to Gaulish, & the area become known as Gascony [ versus Wascony to the south] wherefore are Aquitanians Celts? AptitudeDesign( talk) 09:11, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by AptitudeDesign ( talk • contribs) 09:05, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
At the moment the article includes the statement "La Tène cultural material appeared over a large area, including parts of Ireland and Great Britain", without any reference. The rest of the article, and also the map, do not show any La Tene influence in Ireland or most of Britain. Can someone provide a reference, or else delete this contradictory statement? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.107.41 ( talk) 10:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
It's confusing, and the borders of archaeological cultures are not well-defined anyway. La Tène artefacts were found far afield, in places that are not part of the archaeological La Tène culture proper. There are La Tène finds in Britain, but Britain was not part of La Tène culture proper. The same goes for Poland, northern Germany and Scandinavia.
La Tène corresponds to late or mature Continental Celtic, or Gaulish at its core. The early Celtic or Proto-Celtic expansion took place during the Hallstatt period. The early Celts reached Iberia and Britain before the developments of the core Celtic areal after c. 500 BC, so Britain, Iberia and Croatia are part of the Hallstatt horizon, but not part of the La Tène one. -- dab (𒁳) 17:24, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:06, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Regarding this assertion: Herodotus (iv.49) correctly placed Keltoi at the source of the Ister/Danube, in the heartland of La Tène material culture: "The Ister flows right across Europe, rising in the country of the Celts".
Herodotus asserts the exact inverse of what is asserted, namely that he thinks the Danube starts where the Celts live (near the Pyrenees and south of Iberia near the Cynesians if you read the full quote). In the full quote Herodotus is talking about rivers, and using peoples as references, not the other way around. He talks about how he thinks the Nile starts in West Africa and cuts across Africa then goes north just symmetrically to what he thinks the Danube does, namely start in West(ern most) Europe (near Cynesians and the Pyrenees) and cut across Europe before going south. The assertion currently in the article is a famously incorrect reading of Herodotus' quote that even other parts of wikipedia get it right already, namely the article on the Celts itself. Please help correct this common misconception. Thank you. 2604:2000:C680:8700:D019:DDA:C1B2:7788 ( talk) 04:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)