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No consensus to delete. VfD notice removed. VfD discussion archived below. Cecropia 04:33, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a place to post lyrics to national anthems.
Guanaco 03:24, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Anyone care to translate the anthem for us poor saps who only speak English? -- Dante Alighieri 19:51 24 May 2003 (UTC)
I translated the revolutionary version, but one passage I'm a bit confused by:
This seems to say, roughly "We can no longer be dauntless." But not quite, because that would be:
In any case, this seems bizarre. I would have expected:
"We can no longer be daunted." Still, many places on the we I find "impávido" and nowhere anything else. Can anyone explain this and (presumably) fix the translation accordingly? -- Jmabel 04:13, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Also, can anyone explain how a poem from 1867 can refer to "el grito de Lares"? Wasn't the uprising at Lares in 1868? -- Jmabel 04:16, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for taking this on!
My own knowledge of Spanish is practically nil, but nevertheless this fool has rushed in to tweak the wording of the translation in a few places. (By the way, many diacritical marks in the revolutionary version are missing and should be restored at some point. I'm pretty sure that "canon" should be "cañón", for example). In the translation, I've changed "borinqueño" to "Puerto Rican" because this seems to be how Babelfish and friends translate it. I changed señal to "call to arms." At first I thought "alarm" in the military meaning would be correct, but "wake up! the alarm has sounded" suggests an alarm clock...
Yes, the "ya por más tiempo impávidos no podemos estar" is puzzling. I have an idea this is a place where you'd really need someone literate in Spanish and sensitive to poetic and perhaps archaic language to figure it out. Certainly Babelfish is not up to the task.
What do you suppose is the significance of the title being La Borinqueña (-a) but the poem opening "Despierta, borinqueño" (-o)?
I've posted a query in soc.culture.puerto-rico about the background of the two versions, but no replies as yet. By the way, some stuff I've Googled makes me suspect that the revolutionary version has some kind of political significance in present-day Puerto Rico. Dpbsmith 12:32, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I posted a query about this in soc.culture.puerto-rico and received two helpful replies, including a superb one by Jose Diaz that could practically serve as the text of the article by itself. I have an email query in to Diaz asking him if I can quote his reply liberally (and explaining that he could, of course, also edit the article himself). If not, I'll try to restrict myself to using it only for background.
The thread is:
I've now received a reply from Jose Diaz. I asked:
He replied (4/20/2004):
Accordingly, I'm going to reproduce his posting below. I'm not quite sure yet how to use it in the article; although I said it "could practically serve as the text of the article" there's a little too much there, and there are mild POV issues.
I'd like to leave his text here on the talk page so that his contribution will be clear.
(Anyone else who wants to work on this should of course, feel free to do so)
Message 3 in thread From: Jose Diaz Subject: Re: The two versions of La Borinqueña? Date: 2004-04-19 18:21:36 PST "La Borinqueña" originated as a "danza", a popular form of 19th Century PRican salon music, by composer Félix Astol. In its original version, it had a romantic lyric praising the beauties of the Borinqueña, the woman of Borinquen: "Bellísima trigueña, imagen del candor, del jardín de Borinquen, pura y fragante flor..." This became a very popular piece in the mid-19th Century and became identified as one fo the signature tunes of Puerto Rican music. It is a quite lengthy piece in four parts with an opening, 2 distinct bridges and a coda. In time for the (failed) Lares revolt in 1868, Lola had penned an anthem for the movement: "Despierta Borinqueño, que han dado la señal, despierta de este sueno, que es hora de luchar..." Following a pattern that similar to the American national anthem -- taking over a popular tune -- the patriotic poem was adapted to a version of the danza by Astol. For the purposes of its use as an anthem it was given 4 stanzas to fill the entire composition. Following the failure of the Lares revolt in 1868, and the repressive regime instaurated by the spanish authorities specially after 1887, the situation was unfavorable for any use of the revolutionary lyric (which was preserved among pro-independence groups). However, the popularity of Astol's tune was indisputable, even if now uncomfortably "associated" . And its "underground" status itself only made it more attractive. What to do? Into the fray in the 1890s stepped Spain-born Puerto Rican writer Manuel Fernández Juncos. His solution: write an ode to the land and sea of Puerto Rico, a sort of "Puerto Rico the Beautiful", to the tune. "La Tierra de Borinquen, donde he nacido yo, es un jardín florido, de mágico primor..." Now La Borinqueña would be "safe" for polite company. Conveniently, this coincides with the takeover by the USA in 1898. Soon, La Borinqueña with the Fernández Juncos lyric and a shortened composition for only one stanza was being included among the songs learned by PRican students in school, together with La Tierruca and (for the brief attempt at assimilation) America the Beautiful. During that time period, "patriotic" song in PR is about love for your soil and people -- political nationalism was a dangerous thing to espouse. During the time between 1900 and 1952, the simplified tune became the most popularly known, and between on one side the school establishment with the Fernández Juncos' song to the beauty of the land, and to the other side the pro-independence movement with the 1st. stanza of Rodríguez de Tió's revolutionary lyric it was perpetuated. In a peculiar convergence, on both sides in its own form it grows to become loved as a Puerto Rican anthem. On 24 July 1952, the day before the Commonwealth is established, a "solemn" arrangement of the short version of the *tune* La Borinqueña becomes officially declared the anthem of the Commonwealth. However *neither* lyric was officialized. Instead, it is announced there would be a contest... possibly to choose an altogether new lyric of la Borinqueña? The reasoning behind that requires someone with more time to research. You do have to bear in mind that for many nationalists in 1952, the adoption by the commonwealth government of the lone-star flag and the Borinqueña was a rather insulting misappropriation of what to them should have been the symbols of a Free Puerto Rico, not of this entity bound to the USA. So probably at that time there was an idea of adopting a "state" lyric that would let other parties keep singing whatever they wanted in private. The contest, however, never happens. The People, however, had grown to love their flag and anthem as *theirs* rather than belonging to any political movement, so they adopted them eagerly. And since the majority had grown up with the Fernández Juncos lyric, they kept on singing it. It is TWENTY FIVE years later, in 1977, that the government of the commonwealth finally decides to make it legal and officializes the Fernández Juncos lyric. This was, after all, the most popular version, and the one that would spontaneously rise when, for instance, a PRican athlete would win a sports event. More recently, during the current administration, there was legislation presented to make sure that in *official* activities, only the *official* version is used -- to this day we annoyingly often hear the original Astol danza played in its usual > What do the two versions each mean to the average Puerto Rican? Do they > have a present-day political significance? The Fernández Juncos lyric is well-beloved and is recognized as the official anthem of Puerto Rico(*). To this day, the Rodríguez de Tió lyric is clearly identified with the pro-independence movement, with nationalism; although at least the first stanza is recently better known than it had been since the mid 20th century. It was prominent during the movement associated with the removal of the Vieques US Navy base, (which is iroinic as one of its verses literally says "come, we'll learn to enjoy the noise of cannon fire"). However the revolutionary rhetoric tends to put off many people, due to the calls to violent fighting. (*)This is not to say that many of us don't wonder if old Manuel could not have come up with something better. I mean, covering three long notes by singing "OOOh, OOOOh, OOOOh..." is a bit awkward.
I'm sorry, I'm a little confused. The anthem I learned as a little kid in school is different from this one it goes like this (sorry my keyboard doesn't have accents and squiggly n's)
Could someone address this?
boriboy@msn.com
minor edit on the translation of the second song
equating borinqueno with the english word Puerto Rican while being somewhat synonymous isn't a good literal transalation since Puerto Rican refers to anyone of puertorican 'blood' while boricua (or the older version with slight variation borinqueno) refers more to a person living in the geographical area, sure I might be wrong on this but I know I'm right by translating borinqueno as literary as possible by putting it as boricua in english since that is the closest equivalent. And don't say it's not an english word because neither is non sequitur and nonchalant and hour'dourves (I know I spelt that wrong) or mosquito but we use them anyways, so just adapt this into the english language and deal with it
as for the part that says "riquenos" the most literal translation is ricans not puertoricans as innapropiate as this might sound it's what it is.
Are the Doña Lola lyrics listed here inadvertenly mixed with a Pachin Marín version of the poem? I only remember the first and last stanzas to be hers... Demf 13:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
"Astol's authorship of the melody is disputed (and, during his life, never contested this allegation)." I'm guessing that this means "…(and, during his lifetime, he never contested this allegation)." If that's what it means, then does this mean that the allegation was made during his lifetime? Because there is no later time when he could have disputed it! If that is what it means it should probably read, "Astol's authorship of the melody was disputed even during his lifetime, and he never contested the allegation that the tune was not his." Of course, if it means something else, then it is in even greater need of clarification. - Jmabel | Talk 19:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it's just been too long (I've lived in the "Upper 48" for many years now), but I'm Puerto Rican and I can't recognize the music clip! In spots it has some resemblance to the anthem of my youth, but in general it is not the song I remember, which was quite melodious and went well with the words. Perhaps you can find a better musical version, or perhaps one with the words included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cd195 ( talk • contribs) 01:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I have replaced the references to La Borinqueña as a "national" anthem for "official" anthem. While the use of "national" falls in the realm of political debate, the use of "official" is accurate, non-debatable, and politically correct. Pr4ever ( talk) 07:52, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm looking at the translation and the 3rd stanza looks off as far as translation goes. Currently up:
|
It looks like someone did a rough Babelfish translation. I would translate it as thus:
|
Agreed?
ThaRock1976 ( talk) 19:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
What song is this? –
Illegitimate Barrister (
talk •
contribs), 03:27, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Anybody know more about the Luis Miranda mentioned in the article? Specifically, I'd like to know dates of birth and death for copyright verification purposes. – Illegitimate Barrister ( talk • contribs), 17:46, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Saying this does not mean Puerto Rico is not an insular territory of the U.S. It's incorrect to call its food a "Puerto Rican territorial dish" or a Puerto Rican territorial danza", or "Puerto Rican territorial music" or "Puerto Rican territorial identity". The US is a sovereign state and Puerto Rico is not but Puerto Rico is a nation with its national identity, anthem, dish, music, etc.
Robin Moore who is an Ethnomusicologist at The University of Texas at Austin is the editor of Latin American Music Review, has researched PR and other latin countries and their music for 32 years.
In his book "Music in the Hispanic Caribbean: Experiencing Music, Expressing Culture", published in December 2009, chapter 6 refers to "La Borinqueña" as Puerto Rico's National Anthem.
As you can see here:
In Jstor journal article- ("Puerto Rican Music and Cultural Identity: Creative Appropriation of Cuban Sources from Danza to Salsa", Vol. 38, No. 2, Music and Politics (Spring - Summer, 1994), pp. 249-280 (32 pages), Published by: University of Illinois Press on behalf of Society for Ethnomusicology- Ethnomusicologist), Peter Manuel writes about Puerto Rican music and uses the term "national" throughout the article, never referring to the music as "territorial" in nature. i.e. on pg 255 he states "But its claim to the status of national music has long been usurped by other genres, to which...".
On page 3 of La colonia soberana: deportes olímpicos, Identidad nacional y política internacional en Puerto Rico published by CLASCO, The Latin American Council of Social Sciences (CLACSO) which "is an international non-governmental institution with associative status in UNESCO, created in 1967.", La Borinqueña is referred to as Puerto Rico's National Anthem, not Puerto Rico's territorial anthem. This one is interesting because it is where PR and the US square off in the Olympic games and both national anthems are played before the games. While Puerto Rico remains a colony of the United State it is a 'nation'.
"Nation" does not mean 'sovereign state'.
Also, did you know The Puerto Rican Coat of Arms is the oldest official national seal still used in the Americas. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 12:09, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
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content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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No consensus to delete. VfD notice removed. VfD discussion archived below. Cecropia 04:33, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a place to post lyrics to national anthems.
Guanaco 03:24, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Anyone care to translate the anthem for us poor saps who only speak English? -- Dante Alighieri 19:51 24 May 2003 (UTC)
I translated the revolutionary version, but one passage I'm a bit confused by:
This seems to say, roughly "We can no longer be dauntless." But not quite, because that would be:
In any case, this seems bizarre. I would have expected:
"We can no longer be daunted." Still, many places on the we I find "impávido" and nowhere anything else. Can anyone explain this and (presumably) fix the translation accordingly? -- Jmabel 04:13, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Also, can anyone explain how a poem from 1867 can refer to "el grito de Lares"? Wasn't the uprising at Lares in 1868? -- Jmabel 04:16, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for taking this on!
My own knowledge of Spanish is practically nil, but nevertheless this fool has rushed in to tweak the wording of the translation in a few places. (By the way, many diacritical marks in the revolutionary version are missing and should be restored at some point. I'm pretty sure that "canon" should be "cañón", for example). In the translation, I've changed "borinqueño" to "Puerto Rican" because this seems to be how Babelfish and friends translate it. I changed señal to "call to arms." At first I thought "alarm" in the military meaning would be correct, but "wake up! the alarm has sounded" suggests an alarm clock...
Yes, the "ya por más tiempo impávidos no podemos estar" is puzzling. I have an idea this is a place where you'd really need someone literate in Spanish and sensitive to poetic and perhaps archaic language to figure it out. Certainly Babelfish is not up to the task.
What do you suppose is the significance of the title being La Borinqueña (-a) but the poem opening "Despierta, borinqueño" (-o)?
I've posted a query in soc.culture.puerto-rico about the background of the two versions, but no replies as yet. By the way, some stuff I've Googled makes me suspect that the revolutionary version has some kind of political significance in present-day Puerto Rico. Dpbsmith 12:32, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I posted a query about this in soc.culture.puerto-rico and received two helpful replies, including a superb one by Jose Diaz that could practically serve as the text of the article by itself. I have an email query in to Diaz asking him if I can quote his reply liberally (and explaining that he could, of course, also edit the article himself). If not, I'll try to restrict myself to using it only for background.
The thread is:
I've now received a reply from Jose Diaz. I asked:
He replied (4/20/2004):
Accordingly, I'm going to reproduce his posting below. I'm not quite sure yet how to use it in the article; although I said it "could practically serve as the text of the article" there's a little too much there, and there are mild POV issues.
I'd like to leave his text here on the talk page so that his contribution will be clear.
(Anyone else who wants to work on this should of course, feel free to do so)
Message 3 in thread From: Jose Diaz Subject: Re: The two versions of La Borinqueña? Date: 2004-04-19 18:21:36 PST "La Borinqueña" originated as a "danza", a popular form of 19th Century PRican salon music, by composer Félix Astol. In its original version, it had a romantic lyric praising the beauties of the Borinqueña, the woman of Borinquen: "Bellísima trigueña, imagen del candor, del jardín de Borinquen, pura y fragante flor..." This became a very popular piece in the mid-19th Century and became identified as one fo the signature tunes of Puerto Rican music. It is a quite lengthy piece in four parts with an opening, 2 distinct bridges and a coda. In time for the (failed) Lares revolt in 1868, Lola had penned an anthem for the movement: "Despierta Borinqueño, que han dado la señal, despierta de este sueno, que es hora de luchar..." Following a pattern that similar to the American national anthem -- taking over a popular tune -- the patriotic poem was adapted to a version of the danza by Astol. For the purposes of its use as an anthem it was given 4 stanzas to fill the entire composition. Following the failure of the Lares revolt in 1868, and the repressive regime instaurated by the spanish authorities specially after 1887, the situation was unfavorable for any use of the revolutionary lyric (which was preserved among pro-independence groups). However, the popularity of Astol's tune was indisputable, even if now uncomfortably "associated" . And its "underground" status itself only made it more attractive. What to do? Into the fray in the 1890s stepped Spain-born Puerto Rican writer Manuel Fernández Juncos. His solution: write an ode to the land and sea of Puerto Rico, a sort of "Puerto Rico the Beautiful", to the tune. "La Tierra de Borinquen, donde he nacido yo, es un jardín florido, de mágico primor..." Now La Borinqueña would be "safe" for polite company. Conveniently, this coincides with the takeover by the USA in 1898. Soon, La Borinqueña with the Fernández Juncos lyric and a shortened composition for only one stanza was being included among the songs learned by PRican students in school, together with La Tierruca and (for the brief attempt at assimilation) America the Beautiful. During that time period, "patriotic" song in PR is about love for your soil and people -- political nationalism was a dangerous thing to espouse. During the time between 1900 and 1952, the simplified tune became the most popularly known, and between on one side the school establishment with the Fernández Juncos' song to the beauty of the land, and to the other side the pro-independence movement with the 1st. stanza of Rodríguez de Tió's revolutionary lyric it was perpetuated. In a peculiar convergence, on both sides in its own form it grows to become loved as a Puerto Rican anthem. On 24 July 1952, the day before the Commonwealth is established, a "solemn" arrangement of the short version of the *tune* La Borinqueña becomes officially declared the anthem of the Commonwealth. However *neither* lyric was officialized. Instead, it is announced there would be a contest... possibly to choose an altogether new lyric of la Borinqueña? The reasoning behind that requires someone with more time to research. You do have to bear in mind that for many nationalists in 1952, the adoption by the commonwealth government of the lone-star flag and the Borinqueña was a rather insulting misappropriation of what to them should have been the symbols of a Free Puerto Rico, not of this entity bound to the USA. So probably at that time there was an idea of adopting a "state" lyric that would let other parties keep singing whatever they wanted in private. The contest, however, never happens. The People, however, had grown to love their flag and anthem as *theirs* rather than belonging to any political movement, so they adopted them eagerly. And since the majority had grown up with the Fernández Juncos lyric, they kept on singing it. It is TWENTY FIVE years later, in 1977, that the government of the commonwealth finally decides to make it legal and officializes the Fernández Juncos lyric. This was, after all, the most popular version, and the one that would spontaneously rise when, for instance, a PRican athlete would win a sports event. More recently, during the current administration, there was legislation presented to make sure that in *official* activities, only the *official* version is used -- to this day we annoyingly often hear the original Astol danza played in its usual > What do the two versions each mean to the average Puerto Rican? Do they > have a present-day political significance? The Fernández Juncos lyric is well-beloved and is recognized as the official anthem of Puerto Rico(*). To this day, the Rodríguez de Tió lyric is clearly identified with the pro-independence movement, with nationalism; although at least the first stanza is recently better known than it had been since the mid 20th century. It was prominent during the movement associated with the removal of the Vieques US Navy base, (which is iroinic as one of its verses literally says "come, we'll learn to enjoy the noise of cannon fire"). However the revolutionary rhetoric tends to put off many people, due to the calls to violent fighting. (*)This is not to say that many of us don't wonder if old Manuel could not have come up with something better. I mean, covering three long notes by singing "OOOh, OOOOh, OOOOh..." is a bit awkward.
I'm sorry, I'm a little confused. The anthem I learned as a little kid in school is different from this one it goes like this (sorry my keyboard doesn't have accents and squiggly n's)
Could someone address this?
boriboy@msn.com
minor edit on the translation of the second song
equating borinqueno with the english word Puerto Rican while being somewhat synonymous isn't a good literal transalation since Puerto Rican refers to anyone of puertorican 'blood' while boricua (or the older version with slight variation borinqueno) refers more to a person living in the geographical area, sure I might be wrong on this but I know I'm right by translating borinqueno as literary as possible by putting it as boricua in english since that is the closest equivalent. And don't say it's not an english word because neither is non sequitur and nonchalant and hour'dourves (I know I spelt that wrong) or mosquito but we use them anyways, so just adapt this into the english language and deal with it
as for the part that says "riquenos" the most literal translation is ricans not puertoricans as innapropiate as this might sound it's what it is.
Are the Doña Lola lyrics listed here inadvertenly mixed with a Pachin Marín version of the poem? I only remember the first and last stanzas to be hers... Demf 13:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
"Astol's authorship of the melody is disputed (and, during his life, never contested this allegation)." I'm guessing that this means "…(and, during his lifetime, he never contested this allegation)." If that's what it means, then does this mean that the allegation was made during his lifetime? Because there is no later time when he could have disputed it! If that is what it means it should probably read, "Astol's authorship of the melody was disputed even during his lifetime, and he never contested the allegation that the tune was not his." Of course, if it means something else, then it is in even greater need of clarification. - Jmabel | Talk 19:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it's just been too long (I've lived in the "Upper 48" for many years now), but I'm Puerto Rican and I can't recognize the music clip! In spots it has some resemblance to the anthem of my youth, but in general it is not the song I remember, which was quite melodious and went well with the words. Perhaps you can find a better musical version, or perhaps one with the words included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cd195 ( talk • contribs) 01:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I have replaced the references to La Borinqueña as a "national" anthem for "official" anthem. While the use of "national" falls in the realm of political debate, the use of "official" is accurate, non-debatable, and politically correct. Pr4ever ( talk) 07:52, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm looking at the translation and the 3rd stanza looks off as far as translation goes. Currently up:
|
It looks like someone did a rough Babelfish translation. I would translate it as thus:
|
Agreed?
ThaRock1976 ( talk) 19:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
What song is this? –
Illegitimate Barrister (
talk •
contribs), 03:27, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Anybody know more about the Luis Miranda mentioned in the article? Specifically, I'd like to know dates of birth and death for copyright verification purposes. – Illegitimate Barrister ( talk • contribs), 17:46, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Saying this does not mean Puerto Rico is not an insular territory of the U.S. It's incorrect to call its food a "Puerto Rican territorial dish" or a Puerto Rican territorial danza", or "Puerto Rican territorial music" or "Puerto Rican territorial identity". The US is a sovereign state and Puerto Rico is not but Puerto Rico is a nation with its national identity, anthem, dish, music, etc.
Robin Moore who is an Ethnomusicologist at The University of Texas at Austin is the editor of Latin American Music Review, has researched PR and other latin countries and their music for 32 years.
In his book "Music in the Hispanic Caribbean: Experiencing Music, Expressing Culture", published in December 2009, chapter 6 refers to "La Borinqueña" as Puerto Rico's National Anthem.
As you can see here:
In Jstor journal article- ("Puerto Rican Music and Cultural Identity: Creative Appropriation of Cuban Sources from Danza to Salsa", Vol. 38, No. 2, Music and Politics (Spring - Summer, 1994), pp. 249-280 (32 pages), Published by: University of Illinois Press on behalf of Society for Ethnomusicology- Ethnomusicologist), Peter Manuel writes about Puerto Rican music and uses the term "national" throughout the article, never referring to the music as "territorial" in nature. i.e. on pg 255 he states "But its claim to the status of national music has long been usurped by other genres, to which...".
On page 3 of La colonia soberana: deportes olímpicos, Identidad nacional y política internacional en Puerto Rico published by CLASCO, The Latin American Council of Social Sciences (CLACSO) which "is an international non-governmental institution with associative status in UNESCO, created in 1967.", La Borinqueña is referred to as Puerto Rico's National Anthem, not Puerto Rico's territorial anthem. This one is interesting because it is where PR and the US square off in the Olympic games and both national anthems are played before the games. While Puerto Rico remains a colony of the United State it is a 'nation'.
"Nation" does not mean 'sovereign state'.
Also, did you know The Puerto Rican Coat of Arms is the oldest official national seal still used in the Americas. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 12:09, 14 April 2022 (UTC)