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@ Hashimashadoo has removed the phrase term "far-right" from "In August 2022, the Global Project against Hate and Extremism released a report in which it classified LGB Alliance Ireland as a far-right anti-transgender hate group." I believe this is because they're interpreting the report title of "Irish Far-right Hate and Extremist Groups" to mean it covers "Far-right Hate" groups and also "Extremist" groups and so don't think that all the groups covered by it are being stated to be far-right. This seems a misreading of the report and Irish Times article to me. Both sources says that the report is in a series "covering far-right movements" and repeatedly use the terms "far-right extremism" and "far-right extremist" when describing what the report covers. The GPAHE's description of the report at https://globalextremism.org/post/release-ireland-report/ is that it covers "12 far-right groups in Ireland". There are only 12 groups in the report, so they must mean they consider all 12 far-right, including LGB Alliance.
Any opinions on this? JaggedHamster ( talk) 15:30, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
The report, Irish Far-right Hate and Extremist Groups, details 12 far-right groups in Ireland, of which the LGB Alliance is one. All the groups are far right, and they may be hate groups and/or extremist groups, depending on the context. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
historical research. Primary sources do not trump secondary ones, here. Please see WP:PRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY. Newimpartial ( talk) 17:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Due to ongoing edit warring and the controversial nature of the dispute above, I have full-protected the article for a few days. Please work together, civilly, to achieve consensus before using an edit request to request changes. Many thanks — TheresNoTime ( talk • they/them) 11:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
It seems like the previous edit war over the lede returned after the full protection expired. I'd greatly appreciate if all involved editors avoided changing the lede from its previous status quo while discussion is ongoing in the talk page. Isabelle Belato 🏳🌈 19:04, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
@
Newimpartial: This article is about the British organisation. Your edit which makes it say The LGB Alliance in Ireland has been listed among far-right extremist groups by the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism
is making the article say that LGB Alliance Ireland is part of the British organisation. It is clear that this is not the case, per the section International groups lower down the article. Please do not make edits which contradict the sources, and which cause the article to not make sense. You should self-revert, and in any event, you should have raised this matter on the Talk page, instead of reverting
Crossroads and myself.
Sweet6970 (
talk)
12:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
part ofthe UK organisation. Newimpartial ( talk) 13:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
First of all, you and Crossroads raised entirely different concerns…For heaven’s sake, Newimpartial – did you not read Crossroads’ edit summary? –
Revert, WP:UNDUE in lead. Refers only to Ireland offshoot; also the group making this claim appears to be non-notable and by two researchers who left the SPLC (why?). Unclear if they are reliable or their opinion is noteworthy.We both raise the concern that the ref only refers to ‘the Ireland offshoot’.
It does not make sense to say ‘ It has been listed among far-right extremist groups in Ireland….’ when the article is about the British organisation. The previous wording is correct.The article used to start:
The LGB Alliance is a British campaign group founded in 2019 in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.i.e. the subject of the article is the British organisation. I have accepted the addition of the section on International groups, but that doesn’t alter the fact that the article is about the British organisation.
Britishbut not
UK? Now that seems counterintuitive. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:16, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I disagree with this edit by John Cummings [1]– neither the Irish nor the Australian organisations should be mentioned in the lead. This article is about the British organisation. Sweet6970 ( talk) 18:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
The Irish LGB Alliance (LGBA) was founded in 2020 and is an offshoot of the UK LGB Alliance...
In general, LGBA opposes gender-identity education in schools, medical transition for children reporting gender dysphoria, and gender recognition reform....
Irish LGBTQ+ activists contend that its membership is mostly UK-based, though the Irish chapter insists “all our committee members are living in Ireland.”
In general, LGBA and its international chapters oppose gender-identity education in schools, medical transition for children reporting gender dysphoria, and gender recognition reform.
LGB Alliance Ireland is an offshoot of the UK pressure group, and like it claims that trans rights are in conflict with LGB rights while devoting the vast majority of its efforts attacking advancements to trans rights....
It dedicates much of its report to the UK group, which has, among other things, campaigned against life-saving gender recognition reforms, gender-affirming healthcare for young people, and letting trans people use single-sex spaces and services....
LGB Alliance Ireland fell onto GPAHE’s radar after its UK counterpart compared LGBTQ+ inclusion to “bestiality”, said co-founder Heidi Beirich.
According to GPAHE, the UK-based anti-trans group LGB Alliance’s Australia chapter has supported Jessica Hoyle’s case seeking exemption under Tasmania’s Anti-Discrimination laws to hold some singe-sex events that would ban trans women.
Just for clarity, the fact the Irish chapter/offshoot has been listed as a hate group was already in the intro, all I did was add that the Australian version has also been listed (along with some small grammar changes). Thanks, John Cummings ( talk) 19:55, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia has an objective to make the most informative statements that adhere to objectivity to serve the public civil purpose of contributing to knowledge. While statements can never be completely neutral, they are clear categorisations that we have established in the current literature and should adhere to them when discussing matters of public interest.
The LGB alliance is opposed to protecting the category of gender identity, and is publicly promoting the gatekeeping of medical resources for gender-affirming care and supports conversion therapy for trans people, and is considered transphobic by major human rights organisations and activists . I would like to bring attention to the editors the current wikipedia definition of hate group that includes discrimination against members of a certain nation, race or gender identity. The part of gender identity here is crucial. Thus, it seems imperative to correctly identity the LGB alliance as a hate group, rather than a campaign group. This is to be objective and neutral, rather than integrate biased views of the transgender population in editing practice. The other option to resolve this contradiction would be to edit the wikipedia entry of what constitutes a hate group, as it currently includes hate against people based on gender identity.
Proposed minor edit:
From:
The LGB Alliance is a campaign group founded in the UK in 2019, in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.
To:
The LGB Alliance is a hate group founded in the UK in 2019, in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.
OR
The LGB Alliance is a campaign hate group founded in the UK in 2019, in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ObjectiveBiology ( talk • contribs) 14:37, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
The hearing about the challenge to charitable status has resumed. [3] The Guardian’s report includes:
“The creation of LGB Alliance has promoted constructive debate on “difficult and problematic issues” of sex and gender, the Charity Commission told a court on Monday, during final arguments over whether the gay rights group should have been given charitable status. “
and ““An institution whose purpose is to promote the rights and fair treatment of lesbian, gay and bisexual people will be acting for charitable purposes,” he said. “The issue is whether LGB Alliance was actually established to pursue the pro LGB purposes it set out or whether it really has anti trans purposes.”
Any comments about adding something about these comments on behalf of the Charity Commission?
Sweet6970 ( talk) 21:04, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
determined to include every bit of tittle tattle in a court case. The quotes I selected are not ‘tittle tattle’ – they are, as you are aware, because you mentioned it in your post, comments made by counsel for the Charity Commission. I highlighted them here because I found them somewhat surprising, and hence, interesting. I don’t understand what you mean by ‘selecting one side’. And I don’t know who you are referring to when you say
editors here who have enjoyed piling tittle tattle in the Mermaids article.
Any comments about adding something about these comments on behalf of the Charity Commission?because I was dubious about adding anything, and wanted comments from other editors as to whether something should be added or not. I was not intending to positively suggest that something should be added. However, I can now see that it might be reasonable to interpret my comment in that way.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
@ Hashimashadoo has removed the phrase term "far-right" from "In August 2022, the Global Project against Hate and Extremism released a report in which it classified LGB Alliance Ireland as a far-right anti-transgender hate group." I believe this is because they're interpreting the report title of "Irish Far-right Hate and Extremist Groups" to mean it covers "Far-right Hate" groups and also "Extremist" groups and so don't think that all the groups covered by it are being stated to be far-right. This seems a misreading of the report and Irish Times article to me. Both sources says that the report is in a series "covering far-right movements" and repeatedly use the terms "far-right extremism" and "far-right extremist" when describing what the report covers. The GPAHE's description of the report at https://globalextremism.org/post/release-ireland-report/ is that it covers "12 far-right groups in Ireland". There are only 12 groups in the report, so they must mean they consider all 12 far-right, including LGB Alliance.
Any opinions on this? JaggedHamster ( talk) 15:30, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
The report, Irish Far-right Hate and Extremist Groups, details 12 far-right groups in Ireland, of which the LGB Alliance is one. All the groups are far right, and they may be hate groups and/or extremist groups, depending on the context. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
historical research. Primary sources do not trump secondary ones, here. Please see WP:PRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY. Newimpartial ( talk) 17:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
Due to ongoing edit warring and the controversial nature of the dispute above, I have full-protected the article for a few days. Please work together, civilly, to achieve consensus before using an edit request to request changes. Many thanks — TheresNoTime ( talk • they/them) 11:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
It seems like the previous edit war over the lede returned after the full protection expired. I'd greatly appreciate if all involved editors avoided changing the lede from its previous status quo while discussion is ongoing in the talk page. Isabelle Belato 🏳🌈 19:04, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
@
Newimpartial: This article is about the British organisation. Your edit which makes it say The LGB Alliance in Ireland has been listed among far-right extremist groups by the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism
is making the article say that LGB Alliance Ireland is part of the British organisation. It is clear that this is not the case, per the section International groups lower down the article. Please do not make edits which contradict the sources, and which cause the article to not make sense. You should self-revert, and in any event, you should have raised this matter on the Talk page, instead of reverting
Crossroads and myself.
Sweet6970 (
talk)
12:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
part ofthe UK organisation. Newimpartial ( talk) 13:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
First of all, you and Crossroads raised entirely different concerns…For heaven’s sake, Newimpartial – did you not read Crossroads’ edit summary? –
Revert, WP:UNDUE in lead. Refers only to Ireland offshoot; also the group making this claim appears to be non-notable and by two researchers who left the SPLC (why?). Unclear if they are reliable or their opinion is noteworthy.We both raise the concern that the ref only refers to ‘the Ireland offshoot’.
It does not make sense to say ‘ It has been listed among far-right extremist groups in Ireland….’ when the article is about the British organisation. The previous wording is correct.The article used to start:
The LGB Alliance is a British campaign group founded in 2019 in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.i.e. the subject of the article is the British organisation. I have accepted the addition of the section on International groups, but that doesn’t alter the fact that the article is about the British organisation.
Britishbut not
UK? Now that seems counterintuitive. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:16, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I disagree with this edit by John Cummings [1]– neither the Irish nor the Australian organisations should be mentioned in the lead. This article is about the British organisation. Sweet6970 ( talk) 18:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
The Irish LGB Alliance (LGBA) was founded in 2020 and is an offshoot of the UK LGB Alliance...
In general, LGBA opposes gender-identity education in schools, medical transition for children reporting gender dysphoria, and gender recognition reform....
Irish LGBTQ+ activists contend that its membership is mostly UK-based, though the Irish chapter insists “all our committee members are living in Ireland.”
In general, LGBA and its international chapters oppose gender-identity education in schools, medical transition for children reporting gender dysphoria, and gender recognition reform.
LGB Alliance Ireland is an offshoot of the UK pressure group, and like it claims that trans rights are in conflict with LGB rights while devoting the vast majority of its efforts attacking advancements to trans rights....
It dedicates much of its report to the UK group, which has, among other things, campaigned against life-saving gender recognition reforms, gender-affirming healthcare for young people, and letting trans people use single-sex spaces and services....
LGB Alliance Ireland fell onto GPAHE’s radar after its UK counterpart compared LGBTQ+ inclusion to “bestiality”, said co-founder Heidi Beirich.
According to GPAHE, the UK-based anti-trans group LGB Alliance’s Australia chapter has supported Jessica Hoyle’s case seeking exemption under Tasmania’s Anti-Discrimination laws to hold some singe-sex events that would ban trans women.
Just for clarity, the fact the Irish chapter/offshoot has been listed as a hate group was already in the intro, all I did was add that the Australian version has also been listed (along with some small grammar changes). Thanks, John Cummings ( talk) 19:55, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia has an objective to make the most informative statements that adhere to objectivity to serve the public civil purpose of contributing to knowledge. While statements can never be completely neutral, they are clear categorisations that we have established in the current literature and should adhere to them when discussing matters of public interest.
The LGB alliance is opposed to protecting the category of gender identity, and is publicly promoting the gatekeeping of medical resources for gender-affirming care and supports conversion therapy for trans people, and is considered transphobic by major human rights organisations and activists . I would like to bring attention to the editors the current wikipedia definition of hate group that includes discrimination against members of a certain nation, race or gender identity. The part of gender identity here is crucial. Thus, it seems imperative to correctly identity the LGB alliance as a hate group, rather than a campaign group. This is to be objective and neutral, rather than integrate biased views of the transgender population in editing practice. The other option to resolve this contradiction would be to edit the wikipedia entry of what constitutes a hate group, as it currently includes hate against people based on gender identity.
Proposed minor edit:
From:
The LGB Alliance is a campaign group founded in the UK in 2019, in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.
To:
The LGB Alliance is a hate group founded in the UK in 2019, in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.
OR
The LGB Alliance is a campaign hate group founded in the UK in 2019, in opposition to the policies of LGBT rights charity Stonewall on transgender issues.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ObjectiveBiology ( talk • contribs) 14:37, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
The hearing about the challenge to charitable status has resumed. [3] The Guardian’s report includes:
“The creation of LGB Alliance has promoted constructive debate on “difficult and problematic issues” of sex and gender, the Charity Commission told a court on Monday, during final arguments over whether the gay rights group should have been given charitable status. “
and ““An institution whose purpose is to promote the rights and fair treatment of lesbian, gay and bisexual people will be acting for charitable purposes,” he said. “The issue is whether LGB Alliance was actually established to pursue the pro LGB purposes it set out or whether it really has anti trans purposes.”
Any comments about adding something about these comments on behalf of the Charity Commission?
Sweet6970 ( talk) 21:04, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
determined to include every bit of tittle tattle in a court case. The quotes I selected are not ‘tittle tattle’ – they are, as you are aware, because you mentioned it in your post, comments made by counsel for the Charity Commission. I highlighted them here because I found them somewhat surprising, and hence, interesting. I don’t understand what you mean by ‘selecting one side’. And I don’t know who you are referring to when you say
editors here who have enjoyed piling tittle tattle in the Mermaids article.
Any comments about adding something about these comments on behalf of the Charity Commission?because I was dubious about adding anything, and wanted comments from other editors as to whether something should be added or not. I was not intending to positively suggest that something should be added. However, I can now see that it might be reasonable to interpret my comment in that way.