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@ Lmharding: None, precisely zero, sources support "vigilante executions". Please remove that from the table, or quote exactly where the source says that. I looked and looked; they do not say that.
I would remove myself, but your accusations have me worried. Thanks AukusRuckus ( talk) 06:48, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- Article 365 of the Sri Lankan Penal Code criminalizes "carnal intercourse against the order of nature". Penalties: up to 10 years in prison with fines, forced anal and vaginal examinations, arbitrary detention, beatings, torture, vigilante executions, and vigilante attacks.
- Article 365 of the Sri Lankan Penal Code criminalizes "carnal intercourse against the order of nature". Penalties: up to 10 years in prison with fines;
- authorities impose forced anal and vaginal examinations, arbitrary detention and beatings, which constitutes torture;
- vigilante attacks without redress occur.
Despite any constitutional or other legal protections, and actions taken to reduce discrimination, there may still be grave consequences for LGBTIQ individuals. Occurrences of vigilante attacks and murders; beatings, torture, and forced anal examinations by authorities for those who are believed to be LGBTIQ continue. [1] [2] [3] Additionally, it is reported that the threat of arrest is used as extortion against LGBT people by police and government workers. [4] [5]
@
Lmharding: I have asked here several times for an exact quote where the sources say "vigilante executions", and you have been repeatedly notified by other users—as well as me—on different articles that the sources you use do not speak of vigilante executions.
When I asked you above, you replied with a paragraph from this Wikipedia article (one that I had written
[2] into the page), saying "This is where I got this from
". Please supply the evidence from the source.
Please provide a quote from the source that you believe allows WP to claim "vigilante executions". No other argument will do. As I cannot see, in good faith, sufficient evidence for this claim, if there are no quotes provided here (which we can then discuss), I will be justified in removing the claim.
Following that, I will be asking for community input on the appropriateness of putting the same formulation of "x in prison with fines, forced anal examinations, beatings, torture, vigilante executions, and vigilante attacks.
" into the infoboxes and summary tables of so many LGBT articles, as for example (not a full list):
Vigilante executions, beatings and torture [6] [7] are also tolerated."
Even with sourcing, my view is these claims do not belong in the infoboxes―they are not legal penalties; they are illegal penalties, even if police do them—and possibly not in the tables either, as mostly these statements are not discussed in the body of the articles. (There has been an earlier discussion on this point over here in 2020―not that we have to abide by it, but just to note what was discussed there as a starting point might be helpful). AukusRuckus ( talk) 08:25, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
In the meantime, I looked carefully at the sources that are in the WP par you quoted above, and the closest they come to anything remotely like that are the following:
Examples of such incidents include death threats, sexual assault, rape, physical attacks, as well as emotional and psychological abuse by public and private actors. [2]
[This one came the closest, but no "vigilante execution", "vigilantism", or "execution"]
I was arrested and tortured for suspected activities with the LTTE in the UK. [3]
[torture as a tool of political repression as towards a Tamil (alleged aid to LTTE— Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam) and not related to his sexual orientation (which was undisclosed at the time) or any same-sex activity]
She says, while staff at the District Secretariat to which she belongs were helpful, the system in place only made it tougher for her to change her gender on all official documents. [5]
[Little, if any, mention of violence; "just" discriminatory BS]
To be clear, I am not saying there is no violence, murders, torture or mistreatment. I am saying it's muddying the waters, to make it like a "standard disclaimer", and above all, WP needs clear, reliable sources that directly say what we claim they do: (No WP:SYNTH!) AukusRuckus ( talk) 08:25, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Quotes from source re difficulties of gender change recognition
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Sources
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In the infobox and Summary table, one editor wishes to list "vigilante executions" as a "penalty". My take has been that this is undue for several reasons:
I will ask the other editor to make a short summary here, too. Our discussions are above in #Vigilante executions and its subsections. AukusRuckus ( talk) 12:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
3O Response: I feel that this is a pretty clear case of
MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: that the infobox is
to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article
[...] The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.
The key facts – prison time, torture, etc. – are already present, and to also include vigilante actions will make it an example farm. Additionally, I believe that extrajudicial actions are off-topic since this is about legal rights. I suspect that this has creeped in from the long and ill-defined lists at the end of
LGBT rights by country or territory, which has a number of problems itself. Given that this is an issue across a number of articles, it may be worthwhile to hold an
RfC for broader consensus, after which a note can be added to the documentation for
Template:Infobox LGBT rights. This is a non-binding third opinion, but I hope it helps! –
Reidgreg (
talk)
15:49, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
@ Lmharding:, I have opened a request for a third opinion at WP:Third opinion § Active disagreements. You may wish to write a summary of the disagreement at Talk:LGBT rights in Sri Lanka#Summary for WP:30. Thanks. AukusRuckus ( talk) 13:01, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
that could certainly be included in the article, then possibly make its way to the article lead.", referring, I believe, to the body of the article, still concluding it should not be in the infobox. Perhaps they will confirm that here, or advise that I have misunderstood? AukusRuckus ( talk) 04:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
However, I'd still be disinclined to include such in the infobox." – Reidgreg ( talk) 14:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Ah, I think I understand now, @
Lmharding what you were doing
here under "Difficult Process". You meant to start a new section and were referring
to my edit here, where I say "removed the "low-tech hospital, etc." part - not mentioned in source, and if sourced, needs discussion in body rather than in infobox - but let's please discuss that
"
Sorry I misunderstood! But before we go on to that, can we please address the sourcing for "vigilante executions" above? Thanks. AukusRuckus ( talk) 11:09, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
but anti-gay attitudes, unqualified medical staff, and low tech facilities equates to gender changes rarely being allowed [1]
in green) + with proposed additions (in black):
Although performed on occasion, gender-confirming surgery is relatively inaccessible within Sri Lanka, as many hospitals lack the highly specialised surgical units and staff.Human Rights Watch (HRW), in its "All Five Fingers are Not the Same" report (2016), interviewed doctors and patients. One physician who treats transgender individuals told HRW that Sri Lankan doctors were often unfamiliar with surgical treatments of transgender patients. Patients who had experienced gender-confirming treatments in Sri Lanka, reported that they could be met with ignorance, curiosity and even ridicule from medical staff. Some avoided public hospitals and clinics due such experiences, thus increasing the costs of treatments. Obtaining hormone therapy is similarly fraught. Such obstacles in the path of gender-confirmationincreases the difficulty of obtaining any legal gender recognition.Besides providing a legal procedure for gender recognition,there is no other government recognition or assistance for transgender people. [1]
AukusRuckus ( talk) 11:02, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Also clearing all of the gender change section in a huff is not the answer, I will restore our old compromise with your edit.Lmharding (talk) 08:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)"
Sources
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You ignored my response in a discussion above
Vigilante executions: these articles involve killing of LBGBT in Sri Lanka. This one involving a transgender person killed
[1] and this one of a suicide bombing of gay people
[2] Should I update the article with these sources? Also clearing all of the gender change section in a huff is not the answer, I will restore our old compromise with your edit.
Lmharding (
talk)
08:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC) [Striking blocked sock. 11:01, 30 October 2022 (UTC)]
I appreciate the effort you went to here... but I am having great trouble reading all but the most clearly laid out text now. My visual disability is progressively worse...and then carefully note where and when your "ignored post" was placed?
Sources
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![]() | LGBT rights in Sri Lanka received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Index
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
@ Lmharding: None, precisely zero, sources support "vigilante executions". Please remove that from the table, or quote exactly where the source says that. I looked and looked; they do not say that.
I would remove myself, but your accusations have me worried. Thanks AukusRuckus ( talk) 06:48, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- Article 365 of the Sri Lankan Penal Code criminalizes "carnal intercourse against the order of nature". Penalties: up to 10 years in prison with fines, forced anal and vaginal examinations, arbitrary detention, beatings, torture, vigilante executions, and vigilante attacks.
- Article 365 of the Sri Lankan Penal Code criminalizes "carnal intercourse against the order of nature". Penalties: up to 10 years in prison with fines;
- authorities impose forced anal and vaginal examinations, arbitrary detention and beatings, which constitutes torture;
- vigilante attacks without redress occur.
Despite any constitutional or other legal protections, and actions taken to reduce discrimination, there may still be grave consequences for LGBTIQ individuals. Occurrences of vigilante attacks and murders; beatings, torture, and forced anal examinations by authorities for those who are believed to be LGBTIQ continue. [1] [2] [3] Additionally, it is reported that the threat of arrest is used as extortion against LGBT people by police and government workers. [4] [5]
@
Lmharding: I have asked here several times for an exact quote where the sources say "vigilante executions", and you have been repeatedly notified by other users—as well as me—on different articles that the sources you use do not speak of vigilante executions.
When I asked you above, you replied with a paragraph from this Wikipedia article (one that I had written
[2] into the page), saying "This is where I got this from
". Please supply the evidence from the source.
Please provide a quote from the source that you believe allows WP to claim "vigilante executions". No other argument will do. As I cannot see, in good faith, sufficient evidence for this claim, if there are no quotes provided here (which we can then discuss), I will be justified in removing the claim.
Following that, I will be asking for community input on the appropriateness of putting the same formulation of "x in prison with fines, forced anal examinations, beatings, torture, vigilante executions, and vigilante attacks.
" into the infoboxes and summary tables of so many LGBT articles, as for example (not a full list):
Vigilante executions, beatings and torture [6] [7] are also tolerated."
Even with sourcing, my view is these claims do not belong in the infoboxes―they are not legal penalties; they are illegal penalties, even if police do them—and possibly not in the tables either, as mostly these statements are not discussed in the body of the articles. (There has been an earlier discussion on this point over here in 2020―not that we have to abide by it, but just to note what was discussed there as a starting point might be helpful). AukusRuckus ( talk) 08:25, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
In the meantime, I looked carefully at the sources that are in the WP par you quoted above, and the closest they come to anything remotely like that are the following:
Examples of such incidents include death threats, sexual assault, rape, physical attacks, as well as emotional and psychological abuse by public and private actors. [2]
[This one came the closest, but no "vigilante execution", "vigilantism", or "execution"]
I was arrested and tortured for suspected activities with the LTTE in the UK. [3]
[torture as a tool of political repression as towards a Tamil (alleged aid to LTTE— Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam) and not related to his sexual orientation (which was undisclosed at the time) or any same-sex activity]
She says, while staff at the District Secretariat to which she belongs were helpful, the system in place only made it tougher for her to change her gender on all official documents. [5]
[Little, if any, mention of violence; "just" discriminatory BS]
To be clear, I am not saying there is no violence, murders, torture or mistreatment. I am saying it's muddying the waters, to make it like a "standard disclaimer", and above all, WP needs clear, reliable sources that directly say what we claim they do: (No WP:SYNTH!) AukusRuckus ( talk) 08:25, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Quotes from source re difficulties of gender change recognition
|
---|
|
Sources
|
---|
|
In the infobox and Summary table, one editor wishes to list "vigilante executions" as a "penalty". My take has been that this is undue for several reasons:
I will ask the other editor to make a short summary here, too. Our discussions are above in #Vigilante executions and its subsections. AukusRuckus ( talk) 12:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
3O Response: I feel that this is a pretty clear case of
MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: that the infobox is
to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article
[...] The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.
The key facts – prison time, torture, etc. – are already present, and to also include vigilante actions will make it an example farm. Additionally, I believe that extrajudicial actions are off-topic since this is about legal rights. I suspect that this has creeped in from the long and ill-defined lists at the end of
LGBT rights by country or territory, which has a number of problems itself. Given that this is an issue across a number of articles, it may be worthwhile to hold an
RfC for broader consensus, after which a note can be added to the documentation for
Template:Infobox LGBT rights. This is a non-binding third opinion, but I hope it helps! –
Reidgreg (
talk)
15:49, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
@ Lmharding:, I have opened a request for a third opinion at WP:Third opinion § Active disagreements. You may wish to write a summary of the disagreement at Talk:LGBT rights in Sri Lanka#Summary for WP:30. Thanks. AukusRuckus ( talk) 13:01, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
that could certainly be included in the article, then possibly make its way to the article lead.", referring, I believe, to the body of the article, still concluding it should not be in the infobox. Perhaps they will confirm that here, or advise that I have misunderstood? AukusRuckus ( talk) 04:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
However, I'd still be disinclined to include such in the infobox." – Reidgreg ( talk) 14:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
Ah, I think I understand now, @
Lmharding what you were doing
here under "Difficult Process". You meant to start a new section and were referring
to my edit here, where I say "removed the "low-tech hospital, etc." part - not mentioned in source, and if sourced, needs discussion in body rather than in infobox - but let's please discuss that
"
Sorry I misunderstood! But before we go on to that, can we please address the sourcing for "vigilante executions" above? Thanks. AukusRuckus ( talk) 11:09, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
but anti-gay attitudes, unqualified medical staff, and low tech facilities equates to gender changes rarely being allowed [1]
in green) + with proposed additions (in black):
Although performed on occasion, gender-confirming surgery is relatively inaccessible within Sri Lanka, as many hospitals lack the highly specialised surgical units and staff.Human Rights Watch (HRW), in its "All Five Fingers are Not the Same" report (2016), interviewed doctors and patients. One physician who treats transgender individuals told HRW that Sri Lankan doctors were often unfamiliar with surgical treatments of transgender patients. Patients who had experienced gender-confirming treatments in Sri Lanka, reported that they could be met with ignorance, curiosity and even ridicule from medical staff. Some avoided public hospitals and clinics due such experiences, thus increasing the costs of treatments. Obtaining hormone therapy is similarly fraught. Such obstacles in the path of gender-confirmationincreases the difficulty of obtaining any legal gender recognition.Besides providing a legal procedure for gender recognition,there is no other government recognition or assistance for transgender people. [1]
AukusRuckus ( talk) 11:02, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Also clearing all of the gender change section in a huff is not the answer, I will restore our old compromise with your edit.Lmharding (talk) 08:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)"
Sources
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---|
|
You ignored my response in a discussion above
Vigilante executions: these articles involve killing of LBGBT in Sri Lanka. This one involving a transgender person killed
[1] and this one of a suicide bombing of gay people
[2] Should I update the article with these sources? Also clearing all of the gender change section in a huff is not the answer, I will restore our old compromise with your edit.
Lmharding (
talk)
08:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC) [Striking blocked sock. 11:01, 30 October 2022 (UTC)]
I appreciate the effort you went to here... but I am having great trouble reading all but the most clearly laid out text now. My visual disability is progressively worse...and then carefully note where and when your "ignored post" was placed?
Sources
|
---|