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I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but it has significant issues that would benefit from some attention. The full review is on the comments page; comments and questions can be left here or on my talk page. Magic ♪piano 01:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Why has Lotte Lenya been essentially omitted from this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.29.79.206 ( talk) 18:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kurt Weill/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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==Composers Project Assessment of Kurt Weill: 2008-12-20==
This is an assessment of article Kurt Weill by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards ( WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===
===Summary=== This is mostly a relatively straightforwardly-written biography. Weill's childhood is adequately covered, as are his studies. His professional work, and when he composed what is covered to an almost excessive level. In the early days, we get many works premiered, but no indication of their reception. The section "Paris, London, and New York" is in desparate need of copyedit, for prose and for formatting. It is twice mentioned that Weill becomes a US citizen; this is indicative that the chronology in the section is confused. This sections also suffers from WP:OVERLINK; not all instances of Threepenny Opera need to be linked. (I also note that it is inconsistently referred to; sometimes "Three Penny Opera", "Threepenny Opera", "Dreigroschenoper"; please be consistent.) The list of works is presumed to be complete. However, it is annoying that not even a selection of his stage works is listed; we must go to the other page for that. There is no discussion of Weill's musical style -- I have no idea from the article (beyond that he wrote music for the stage that was fairly popular) what it's like. There is also relatively little critical or popular appreciation. (For example, how was Street Scene received? It's described as an "attempt" at something -- did it work?) Since Weill was long outlived by Lenya, one wonders how much of the Alma problem is present in public information about Weill; a discussion of the life of his music and legacy after his death might be instructive. There are structural issues with the article. The lead is short; it should be 3-4 paragraphs, and summarize the article. There are numerous formatting errors, like the bolded New York address. Dates are inconsistently presented. There is a section headed Bibliography; this heading is conventionally used for written works by the subject. Most articles I see use "Notes" or "Footnotes" for the inline citation details, and "References" or "Sources" for listing the works consulted. While there are a reasonable number of inline citations, there are probably not enough for a formal review. The placement of citations is inconsistent -- either all before or all after punctuation, please. The article should also have more images, and some sound clips if possible. |
Last edited at 01:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 21:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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I'm pressing for the removal of this personal website from Wikipedia pages other than those that directly relate to its author and founder Mark Steyn. No doubt Steyn's writing and activism have relevance to a variety of topics when published by a reliable source, but its use elsewhere is questionable for a number of reasons: (1) Excessive personal promotion (2) Promotion of fringe ideas (3) Disparaging commentary of people who the author is in longstanding disagreement with.
Case in point: Mark Steyn is a self-described "climate skeptic" who has argued repeatedly that the world is not warming. He continues to support and publicize ideas at odds with the scientific community. He is presently engaged in legal dispute with climate scientist Michael Mann. Steynonline.com is designed in such a way to display promotion for his books on all internal pages, so too his attacks on climate scientists via a feed of his @MarkSteynOnline Twitter account.
I welcome feedback on this issue though suspect it might be simpler to visit the reliable sources noticeboard and present the issue there. — Niche-gamer 13:30, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
It's funny that I noticed how another editor made note of Weill's religion while making an edit similar to the one I made moments ago. That edit was later undone due primarily to the notion that Jewish was an ethnicity. But technically, Jewish is not an ethnicity, since a gentile can become Jewish by converting to Judaism. For obvious reasons, converting to Judaism does not mean you change your ethnicity. For instance, an Irish person of 100% Irish descent can't become ethnically Russian by moving to Russia and even by changing his name and adopting and observing Russian culture. So ethnicity must include the race you were born into. 208.138.53.57 ( talk) 16:21, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
You're building a strawman argument here. It's not stated anywhere in this article that Kurt Weill's jewishness was "ethnic". As has been stated before here, the reason the article refers to Weill as a jew is because he was German by nationality and lived as an artist in Germany after Hitler came to power. Weill's jewishness is therefore a noteworthy historical point. It is not factually incorrect in any way. Therefore, your edit to remove the word "Jewish" from the lead has been undone like the previous user.
As for the example you use to supposedly bolster your argument of jewishness not being an ethnicity, an Irish person moving to Russia, that is an "apples and oranges" fallaciousness. Russian and Irish are nationalities not ethnic groups.
To define the term and prove that jews are in fact an ethnicity, I offer the following. Jews have certain physical characteristics that are defined as racial. Specifically, they are by scientific definition a subset of a race, i.e. an ethnicity. Jewish is thus both an ethicity AND a religion.
Your bold statement that "Jewish is not an ethnicity" could also be construed as anti-semitic, or at least coming from a somewhat bigoted viewpoint, as well as a lame attempt to hide well-known facts, since every country in the world, as well as the United Nations and many world organisations officially list Jewish people as an ethnic group. Most jews consider themselves as an ethnic group. To claim they aren't is a slight against them, what they believe in, and what they see themselves as. An Anonymous Jew 17:39, 25 February 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100F:B104:CAAB:E46C:9DAC:D940:483A ( talk)
@ Michael Bednarek: For what it's worth, besides The Eternal Road, he wrote occasional music for the founding of Israel, and did a setting of the Kiddush. His only trip abroad after settling in the U.S. was to Israel (although he did briefly visit several places in Europe on the way back). These seem unlikely actions for someone who was estranged from Jewish identity, though there is less evidence of any attachment to that identity between his leaving his parents' home and the rise of the Nazis. - Jmabel | Talk 05:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
@
Michael Bednarek: More on this, as I've been working my way through Kurt Weill: an illustrated life, Jürgen Schebera (Yale, 1995, translated by Caroline Murphy).
So that's quite a bit down to 1924, not 1913: it would appear that at least a quarter of his output in that decade has Jewish themes. Given that, along with the ethnically-based attacks on him and his work in later years in Germany, it seems to me that it probably merits mention in the lede. Do you still disagree, given what I've noted here? - Jmabel | Talk 05:15, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
FWIW, I've now written a blog post on the topic. If anyone wants specific references for any particulars, let me know. - Jmabel | Talk 19:19, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Commissioned by Cantor David Putterman of New York’s Park Avenue Synagogue, 1946.
https://www.milkenarchive.org/music/volumes/view/swing-his-praises/work/kiddush-weill/
Drsruli ( talk) 05:26, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
As of 2021-15-02 our article begins "Kurt Julian Weill (March 2, 1900 – April 3, 1950) was a German composer…" That phrase "a German composer" seems problematic to me: Weill in 1947 explicitly disavowed that characterization. In a 1947 letter to Life magazine, reprinted in Henry Marx (Ed.), Weill-Lenya Goethe House, (New York, 1976) and cited by Douglas Jarman, Kurt Weill: An illustrated Biography, Indiana University Press (Bloomington, 1982), p.140, Weill wrote, "Although I was born in Germany I don not consider myself a 'German composer'. … I am an American citizen and during my dozen years in this country have composed exclusively for the American stage … I would appreciate your straightening out your readers on this matter." Jarman doesn't say what Life may have done, but his sense of his own nationality could not be more clearly stated. I am editing this to say "a German (later American) composer," and I suppose I should cite the above. Not sure how best to do this multi-layered citation, so someone may want to clean up my footnote. - Jmabel | Talk 01:02, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to put this in the current article structure, but Douglas Jarman, Kurt Weill: An illustrated Biography, Indiana University Press (Bloomington, 1982; ISBN 025314650X), mentions two other significant influences on Weill's mature work. Although he largely drifts away from post-Wagnerian German Expressionism, he retains Mahler's clashing timbres (Jarman, p. 90) and, unusually for a German, he showed strong influences from Russian classical music, especially Mussorgsky. Like the latter, Weill threads his way between atonalism and the diatonic scales, often finding a compromise in the less common modes (Jarman, p. 121 et. seq.). - Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kurt Weill article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but it has significant issues that would benefit from some attention. The full review is on the comments page; comments and questions can be left here or on my talk page. Magic ♪piano 01:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Why has Lotte Lenya been essentially omitted from this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.29.79.206 ( talk) 18:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kurt Weill/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
==Composers Project Assessment of Kurt Weill: 2008-12-20==
This is an assessment of article Kurt Weill by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards ( WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===
===Summary=== This is mostly a relatively straightforwardly-written biography. Weill's childhood is adequately covered, as are his studies. His professional work, and when he composed what is covered to an almost excessive level. In the early days, we get many works premiered, but no indication of their reception. The section "Paris, London, and New York" is in desparate need of copyedit, for prose and for formatting. It is twice mentioned that Weill becomes a US citizen; this is indicative that the chronology in the section is confused. This sections also suffers from WP:OVERLINK; not all instances of Threepenny Opera need to be linked. (I also note that it is inconsistently referred to; sometimes "Three Penny Opera", "Threepenny Opera", "Dreigroschenoper"; please be consistent.) The list of works is presumed to be complete. However, it is annoying that not even a selection of his stage works is listed; we must go to the other page for that. There is no discussion of Weill's musical style -- I have no idea from the article (beyond that he wrote music for the stage that was fairly popular) what it's like. There is also relatively little critical or popular appreciation. (For example, how was Street Scene received? It's described as an "attempt" at something -- did it work?) Since Weill was long outlived by Lenya, one wonders how much of the Alma problem is present in public information about Weill; a discussion of the life of his music and legacy after his death might be instructive. There are structural issues with the article. The lead is short; it should be 3-4 paragraphs, and summarize the article. There are numerous formatting errors, like the bolded New York address. Dates are inconsistently presented. There is a section headed Bibliography; this heading is conventionally used for written works by the subject. Most articles I see use "Notes" or "Footnotes" for the inline citation details, and "References" or "Sources" for listing the works consulted. While there are a reasonable number of inline citations, there are probably not enough for a formal review. The placement of citations is inconsistent -- either all before or all after punctuation, please. The article should also have more images, and some sound clips if possible. |
Last edited at 01:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 21:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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I'm pressing for the removal of this personal website from Wikipedia pages other than those that directly relate to its author and founder Mark Steyn. No doubt Steyn's writing and activism have relevance to a variety of topics when published by a reliable source, but its use elsewhere is questionable for a number of reasons: (1) Excessive personal promotion (2) Promotion of fringe ideas (3) Disparaging commentary of people who the author is in longstanding disagreement with.
Case in point: Mark Steyn is a self-described "climate skeptic" who has argued repeatedly that the world is not warming. He continues to support and publicize ideas at odds with the scientific community. He is presently engaged in legal dispute with climate scientist Michael Mann. Steynonline.com is designed in such a way to display promotion for his books on all internal pages, so too his attacks on climate scientists via a feed of his @MarkSteynOnline Twitter account.
I welcome feedback on this issue though suspect it might be simpler to visit the reliable sources noticeboard and present the issue there. — Niche-gamer 13:30, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
It's funny that I noticed how another editor made note of Weill's religion while making an edit similar to the one I made moments ago. That edit was later undone due primarily to the notion that Jewish was an ethnicity. But technically, Jewish is not an ethnicity, since a gentile can become Jewish by converting to Judaism. For obvious reasons, converting to Judaism does not mean you change your ethnicity. For instance, an Irish person of 100% Irish descent can't become ethnically Russian by moving to Russia and even by changing his name and adopting and observing Russian culture. So ethnicity must include the race you were born into. 208.138.53.57 ( talk) 16:21, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
You're building a strawman argument here. It's not stated anywhere in this article that Kurt Weill's jewishness was "ethnic". As has been stated before here, the reason the article refers to Weill as a jew is because he was German by nationality and lived as an artist in Germany after Hitler came to power. Weill's jewishness is therefore a noteworthy historical point. It is not factually incorrect in any way. Therefore, your edit to remove the word "Jewish" from the lead has been undone like the previous user.
As for the example you use to supposedly bolster your argument of jewishness not being an ethnicity, an Irish person moving to Russia, that is an "apples and oranges" fallaciousness. Russian and Irish are nationalities not ethnic groups.
To define the term and prove that jews are in fact an ethnicity, I offer the following. Jews have certain physical characteristics that are defined as racial. Specifically, they are by scientific definition a subset of a race, i.e. an ethnicity. Jewish is thus both an ethicity AND a religion.
Your bold statement that "Jewish is not an ethnicity" could also be construed as anti-semitic, or at least coming from a somewhat bigoted viewpoint, as well as a lame attempt to hide well-known facts, since every country in the world, as well as the United Nations and many world organisations officially list Jewish people as an ethnic group. Most jews consider themselves as an ethnic group. To claim they aren't is a slight against them, what they believe in, and what they see themselves as. An Anonymous Jew 17:39, 25 February 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100F:B104:CAAB:E46C:9DAC:D940:483A ( talk)
@ Michael Bednarek: For what it's worth, besides The Eternal Road, he wrote occasional music for the founding of Israel, and did a setting of the Kiddush. His only trip abroad after settling in the U.S. was to Israel (although he did briefly visit several places in Europe on the way back). These seem unlikely actions for someone who was estranged from Jewish identity, though there is less evidence of any attachment to that identity between his leaving his parents' home and the rise of the Nazis. - Jmabel | Talk 05:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
@
Michael Bednarek: More on this, as I've been working my way through Kurt Weill: an illustrated life, Jürgen Schebera (Yale, 1995, translated by Caroline Murphy).
So that's quite a bit down to 1924, not 1913: it would appear that at least a quarter of his output in that decade has Jewish themes. Given that, along with the ethnically-based attacks on him and his work in later years in Germany, it seems to me that it probably merits mention in the lede. Do you still disagree, given what I've noted here? - Jmabel | Talk 05:15, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
FWIW, I've now written a blog post on the topic. If anyone wants specific references for any particulars, let me know. - Jmabel | Talk 19:19, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Commissioned by Cantor David Putterman of New York’s Park Avenue Synagogue, 1946.
https://www.milkenarchive.org/music/volumes/view/swing-his-praises/work/kiddush-weill/
Drsruli ( talk) 05:26, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
As of 2021-15-02 our article begins "Kurt Julian Weill (March 2, 1900 – April 3, 1950) was a German composer…" That phrase "a German composer" seems problematic to me: Weill in 1947 explicitly disavowed that characterization. In a 1947 letter to Life magazine, reprinted in Henry Marx (Ed.), Weill-Lenya Goethe House, (New York, 1976) and cited by Douglas Jarman, Kurt Weill: An illustrated Biography, Indiana University Press (Bloomington, 1982), p.140, Weill wrote, "Although I was born in Germany I don not consider myself a 'German composer'. … I am an American citizen and during my dozen years in this country have composed exclusively for the American stage … I would appreciate your straightening out your readers on this matter." Jarman doesn't say what Life may have done, but his sense of his own nationality could not be more clearly stated. I am editing this to say "a German (later American) composer," and I suppose I should cite the above. Not sure how best to do this multi-layered citation, so someone may want to clean up my footnote. - Jmabel | Talk 01:02, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to put this in the current article structure, but Douglas Jarman, Kurt Weill: An illustrated Biography, Indiana University Press (Bloomington, 1982; ISBN 025314650X), mentions two other significant influences on Weill's mature work. Although he largely drifts away from post-Wagnerian German Expressionism, he retains Mahler's clashing timbres (Jarman, p. 90) and, unusually for a German, he showed strong influences from Russian classical music, especially Mussorgsky. Like the latter, Weill threads his way between atonalism and the diatonic scales, often finding a compromise in the less common modes (Jarman, p. 121 et. seq.). - Jmabel | Talk 05:02, 16 February 2021 (UTC)