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Should we make a referance about Kurt's mediocre guitar playing? I know that "good" is in the eye of the beholder, but all professional guitar players know that he was just a good song writer and singer, and could really barely play guitar.
I think it might be a good idea... he was still a guitarist, regardless of skill-level. I think the guitars he used (Mustangs, Jag-Stang and Jaguars, etc.) are somewhat relevant to the artice, as well. After all, he did popularize the Fender Mustang. Mimi in kinderland 23:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to focus a bit more on kurts life & musicianship rather than the apparently questionable suicide. im not saying we should scrap anything from the sections on his death, im saying we should expand the sections on his life. 124.184.70.211 09:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that "all professional guitar players know that... [he] could really barely play guitar" at all. In fact, whilst his technical skill may not be often lauded, some of his solos are indeed greatly admired. I agree that he should certainly be documented as a guitarist, and for anyone doing so, there is some (probably) useful information at [1] Andyroo g 14:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
People who don't play instrument don't know how difficult it is to play guitar, sing, make solo all at the same time. Kurt Cobain was a musician, he wanted to create song not being the fastest guitarist on earth. There's thousand guitarist like that, why focus on him ? Nobody would say that Bob Dylan or Lou Reed was a mediocre guitarist, but either of them are Van Halen, though. However, we could describe is guitar-style as very simple, with a lot of barre chords use, like most of the punk guitarist. The fact that his song were very easy to remember and easy to hum might have been one of the reason of their success. In a way, create a perfect pop song like "about a girl", with only two chords is more difficult than when you can use all your technical skills. Everybody can play guitar like Kurt did, but not everybody can create songs like he did. ;)
^^^ You know, Kurt himself said that he could barely play guitar, so this really isn't news to anyone. And anyways, Bleach has some cool solos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.239.20.99 ( talk) 17:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Kurt Cobain was a great guitarist, and the people that say he isn't a good guitarist must not know about the guitar. he used weird tunings which inspired many guitarists of today. Saying he is mediocre is defiantly a understatement. In my opinion and alot of Nirvana fans opinions, he was very, very underrated. The person above, please show me where he said this, because he would never say something like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.80.95 ( talk) 13:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC) no i think saying something like that sounds like kurt. he did play down himself in the press. 121.217.241.224 ( talk) 10:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
This is POV, it's in there to support the murder theory that says that Love only started saying he was suicidal just before he committed suicide because she needed people to believe she wasn't the murderer because it wasn't suicide after all! dun-dun-duh! Except it's rubbish. So "later" should be removed, and maybe the whole thing unless you have proof she actually said that.
If there's a source for this I would love to know why this sentence uses sarcasm in a POV way as emotive writing? Otherwise it also needs deleting. Is it the position of wikipedia to thank anyone's drug dealer?
Source: Justice For Kurt. Um, no. Just no. Most unreliable biased source ever.
This isn't an A grade article. It certainly doesn't deserve FA, and it wouldn't even get GA if you nom'd it for it. It's B/C grade. I'm leaning towards C, actually. Which is what i'm changing it to. -- I'll bring the food 05:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm impressed by your in-depth analysis, "I'll bring the food". You've done everything from dismissing facts as "rubbish" without proof, to attacking the source of the information, again, without proof.
Please point out one thing in that paragraph that hasn't been conclusively proven, and I will gladly address that as fairly as possible. 69.156.104.61 00:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sixtyniner ( talk • contribs) 20:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC).
I don't mean to sound nit-picky, but I ran across this and thought it may be important.
In the part discussing murder theories, the article reads "He suggests that the heroin was used to incapacitate Cobain before the final shotgun blast was administered by the perpetrator.[39]
Maybe the word final is misleading, as it could suggest that there was more than one gunshot.
I don't have very much vested in this article, so I won't change it. I'll leave it to those who have been working on this stuff for a while.
I think that the phrase in Early Life "Cobain's teenage years were difficult." should be removed because it is not a fact of his life, rather, it is an opinion of whoever wrote it. Who's to say his early years were difficult? Some may find them just the opposite. It is biased. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Razzola ( talk • contribs) 07:06, 15 June 2007.
CAYA has direct quotes from Cobain that confirm the phrase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.239.20.99 ( talk) 17:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Replaced "chastizing" with "chastising".
Paul527 17:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone has uploaded this image to Wikipedia Commons from Flickr. It's a free creative commons licence, and I would suggest finding a nice spot to place it. Cobain's style of destruction was a signature. -- Reaper X 03:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Cite it then, Christopher. Scarian Talk 21:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
THEN STICK ONE GIANT CITATION NEXT TO IT THEN, BABY. And don't forget... as per my edit upstairs (above) books can be gosh darn biased too! ;-) Scarian Talk 21:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
i found out that kurt cobain played left handed and yet is right handed
No, I think he's left handed. There's no reason he would play left-handed if he was right handed. On a side-note, I've seen many pictures where, the negative being mistakenly flipped, Cobain would play right-handed and Chris Novoselic left-handed.
Actually, it is easier to play rock guitar left handed, for many, if they are right hand dominant. The fingering of the fretboard is easier. Many write right, and play left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.42.20.73 ( talk) 18:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. Kurt was ambidextrous. He played lefty guitar, yet wrote with his right hand. So the first comment is right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.239.20.99 ( talk) 17:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Just so it doesn't look like I'm being capricious - Cobain never called himself a vegetarian. The source that Sugarcubez is citing simply references Newsweek's Journals excerpts, but doesn't provide the text they're citing. The actual Newsweek excerpts don't include such a statement, and I couldn't find one in Journals myself. ( Sugarcubez's source isn't a reliable source anyway, according to guidelines - there isn't "an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight".)
The closest source that I could find simply listed "a vegetarian diet" as one of the many things he tried in hopes of curing his stomach problem:
Charles Cross later cited Cobain as listing "Taco Bell and thin-crust pepperoni pizza" as his favorite take-out items in 1993.
The real problem: Cobain is not on record calling himself as a vegetarian. It's also an issue of notability - it's not something he's known as. (Mainly because he wasn't.) -- ChrisB 04:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
"Yes I eat cow, I am not proud." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.203.252 ( talk) 01:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The Cross biography and other sources including Bev Cobain's interviews in relation to her youth suicide work make reference to Kurt having several diagnosis, in particular ADHD (for which he was medicated with Ritalin as a child) and bipolar disorder. This is at least as significant to Kurt's life, death and art as Kurt's drug use, and is as well documented. It warrants at least a link - especially given that the murder/suicide debate continues to be linked and gets so much page space. SJaneM 13:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
the article makes it sound as if it would be impossible to fire a shotgun with your foot while having shoes on. have any of you ever handled a gun? it would be quite easy to do. unless the gun had a 100 pound trigger pull, you would only need to get the edge of your foot on the edge of the trigger in order for it to go off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.20.87 ( talk) 16:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Also regarding this :
Cobain was discovered in the spare room above the garage (referred to as "the greenhouse") at his Lake Washington home by Veca Electric employee Gary Smith. Smith arrived at the house that morning to install security lighting and saw him lying inside. Apart from a minor amount of blood coming out of Cobain's ear, Smith reported seeing no visible signs of trauma, and initially believed that Cobain was asleep.
I find it incredible that a point-blank shotgun blast would leave someone with a "minor amount of blood" visible. Ekoontz 00:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the Legacy section is quite incomplete. There is much more to say about his influence on music and popular culture in general than "there is a sign a the entrance of his hometown" or "there is a documentary being made right now". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.139.81 ( talk) 18:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
In the section about Cobain's death, the phrase "Grant claims" is written six times. Can't we get this a little more varied? When I was reading it, it seemed like all I could find was "Grant claims". -- BubbaYoshi 01:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
"After a few weeks of on-again, off-again courtship in the fall of 1991..." Who says? Does anybody really know anything about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.255.212 ( talk) 21:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Kurt Cobain is also mentioned in the book "About a boy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.227.10 ( talk) 23:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I was a pretty big Nirvana fan, back in the day. I never saw Kurdt referred to as "Kurdt" or any of the other multiple names someone keeps inserting. Please refrain from reinserting them without discussion and sourcing. K. Scott Bailey 14:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
On the back of the Bleach album he is referred to as Kurdt and he would often write Kurdt Kobain in his journal, so you are not a self-described big Nirvana fan if you didnt know that —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cmd1188 ( talk • contribs) 14:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The text says his ashes went to Tibet. However, many internet sources say it was fully or partly scattered in the Wishkah River. Could somebody give trustworthy evidence of either version? -- Vancouver robin 05:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is definitely not a "good article," as it treats a fringe conspiracy theory as equivalent in view to the official judicial finding of suicide, giving far too much space to a sensationalistic, scandalous, never-substantiated and never-tested-in-court allegation. Attempts at fixing this have been blindly reverted. The article is unstable, gives undue weight to a minority viewpoint and is thus incompatible with any definition of good article. I will allow five days for this problem to be solved before delisting. FCYTravis ( talk) 19:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The neutral point of view
The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions.
Every single person on rs list of greatist guitarist has this fact on the first paragraph on their page so if someone changes Cobains im gonna hit them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Blizzard King ( talk • contribs) 17:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Given discussion here, I'm going to remove the "Suicide dispute" section and reportion bits and pieces of it to the "Books on Cobain" section or other relevant articles. Further concerns can be listed here. WesleyDodds 03:06, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
Should we make a referance about Kurt's mediocre guitar playing? I know that "good" is in the eye of the beholder, but all professional guitar players know that he was just a good song writer and singer, and could really barely play guitar.
I think it might be a good idea... he was still a guitarist, regardless of skill-level. I think the guitars he used (Mustangs, Jag-Stang and Jaguars, etc.) are somewhat relevant to the artice, as well. After all, he did popularize the Fender Mustang. Mimi in kinderland 23:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to focus a bit more on kurts life & musicianship rather than the apparently questionable suicide. im not saying we should scrap anything from the sections on his death, im saying we should expand the sections on his life. 124.184.70.211 09:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that "all professional guitar players know that... [he] could really barely play guitar" at all. In fact, whilst his technical skill may not be often lauded, some of his solos are indeed greatly admired. I agree that he should certainly be documented as a guitarist, and for anyone doing so, there is some (probably) useful information at [1] Andyroo g 14:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
People who don't play instrument don't know how difficult it is to play guitar, sing, make solo all at the same time. Kurt Cobain was a musician, he wanted to create song not being the fastest guitarist on earth. There's thousand guitarist like that, why focus on him ? Nobody would say that Bob Dylan or Lou Reed was a mediocre guitarist, but either of them are Van Halen, though. However, we could describe is guitar-style as very simple, with a lot of barre chords use, like most of the punk guitarist. The fact that his song were very easy to remember and easy to hum might have been one of the reason of their success. In a way, create a perfect pop song like "about a girl", with only two chords is more difficult than when you can use all your technical skills. Everybody can play guitar like Kurt did, but not everybody can create songs like he did. ;)
^^^ You know, Kurt himself said that he could barely play guitar, so this really isn't news to anyone. And anyways, Bleach has some cool solos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.239.20.99 ( talk) 17:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Kurt Cobain was a great guitarist, and the people that say he isn't a good guitarist must not know about the guitar. he used weird tunings which inspired many guitarists of today. Saying he is mediocre is defiantly a understatement. In my opinion and alot of Nirvana fans opinions, he was very, very underrated. The person above, please show me where he said this, because he would never say something like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.80.95 ( talk) 13:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC) no i think saying something like that sounds like kurt. he did play down himself in the press. 121.217.241.224 ( talk) 10:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
This is POV, it's in there to support the murder theory that says that Love only started saying he was suicidal just before he committed suicide because she needed people to believe she wasn't the murderer because it wasn't suicide after all! dun-dun-duh! Except it's rubbish. So "later" should be removed, and maybe the whole thing unless you have proof she actually said that.
If there's a source for this I would love to know why this sentence uses sarcasm in a POV way as emotive writing? Otherwise it also needs deleting. Is it the position of wikipedia to thank anyone's drug dealer?
Source: Justice For Kurt. Um, no. Just no. Most unreliable biased source ever.
This isn't an A grade article. It certainly doesn't deserve FA, and it wouldn't even get GA if you nom'd it for it. It's B/C grade. I'm leaning towards C, actually. Which is what i'm changing it to. -- I'll bring the food 05:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm impressed by your in-depth analysis, "I'll bring the food". You've done everything from dismissing facts as "rubbish" without proof, to attacking the source of the information, again, without proof.
Please point out one thing in that paragraph that hasn't been conclusively proven, and I will gladly address that as fairly as possible. 69.156.104.61 00:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sixtyniner ( talk • contribs) 20:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC).
I don't mean to sound nit-picky, but I ran across this and thought it may be important.
In the part discussing murder theories, the article reads "He suggests that the heroin was used to incapacitate Cobain before the final shotgun blast was administered by the perpetrator.[39]
Maybe the word final is misleading, as it could suggest that there was more than one gunshot.
I don't have very much vested in this article, so I won't change it. I'll leave it to those who have been working on this stuff for a while.
I think that the phrase in Early Life "Cobain's teenage years were difficult." should be removed because it is not a fact of his life, rather, it is an opinion of whoever wrote it. Who's to say his early years were difficult? Some may find them just the opposite. It is biased. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Razzola ( talk • contribs) 07:06, 15 June 2007.
CAYA has direct quotes from Cobain that confirm the phrase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.239.20.99 ( talk) 17:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Replaced "chastizing" with "chastising".
Paul527 17:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Someone has uploaded this image to Wikipedia Commons from Flickr. It's a free creative commons licence, and I would suggest finding a nice spot to place it. Cobain's style of destruction was a signature. -- Reaper X 03:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Cite it then, Christopher. Scarian Talk 21:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
THEN STICK ONE GIANT CITATION NEXT TO IT THEN, BABY. And don't forget... as per my edit upstairs (above) books can be gosh darn biased too! ;-) Scarian Talk 21:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
i found out that kurt cobain played left handed and yet is right handed
No, I think he's left handed. There's no reason he would play left-handed if he was right handed. On a side-note, I've seen many pictures where, the negative being mistakenly flipped, Cobain would play right-handed and Chris Novoselic left-handed.
Actually, it is easier to play rock guitar left handed, for many, if they are right hand dominant. The fingering of the fretboard is easier. Many write right, and play left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.42.20.73 ( talk) 18:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. Kurt was ambidextrous. He played lefty guitar, yet wrote with his right hand. So the first comment is right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.239.20.99 ( talk) 17:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Just so it doesn't look like I'm being capricious - Cobain never called himself a vegetarian. The source that Sugarcubez is citing simply references Newsweek's Journals excerpts, but doesn't provide the text they're citing. The actual Newsweek excerpts don't include such a statement, and I couldn't find one in Journals myself. ( Sugarcubez's source isn't a reliable source anyway, according to guidelines - there isn't "an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight".)
The closest source that I could find simply listed "a vegetarian diet" as one of the many things he tried in hopes of curing his stomach problem:
Charles Cross later cited Cobain as listing "Taco Bell and thin-crust pepperoni pizza" as his favorite take-out items in 1993.
The real problem: Cobain is not on record calling himself as a vegetarian. It's also an issue of notability - it's not something he's known as. (Mainly because he wasn't.) -- ChrisB 04:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
"Yes I eat cow, I am not proud." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.203.252 ( talk) 01:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The Cross biography and other sources including Bev Cobain's interviews in relation to her youth suicide work make reference to Kurt having several diagnosis, in particular ADHD (for which he was medicated with Ritalin as a child) and bipolar disorder. This is at least as significant to Kurt's life, death and art as Kurt's drug use, and is as well documented. It warrants at least a link - especially given that the murder/suicide debate continues to be linked and gets so much page space. SJaneM 13:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
the article makes it sound as if it would be impossible to fire a shotgun with your foot while having shoes on. have any of you ever handled a gun? it would be quite easy to do. unless the gun had a 100 pound trigger pull, you would only need to get the edge of your foot on the edge of the trigger in order for it to go off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.20.87 ( talk) 16:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Also regarding this :
Cobain was discovered in the spare room above the garage (referred to as "the greenhouse") at his Lake Washington home by Veca Electric employee Gary Smith. Smith arrived at the house that morning to install security lighting and saw him lying inside. Apart from a minor amount of blood coming out of Cobain's ear, Smith reported seeing no visible signs of trauma, and initially believed that Cobain was asleep.
I find it incredible that a point-blank shotgun blast would leave someone with a "minor amount of blood" visible. Ekoontz 00:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the Legacy section is quite incomplete. There is much more to say about his influence on music and popular culture in general than "there is a sign a the entrance of his hometown" or "there is a documentary being made right now". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.139.81 ( talk) 18:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
In the section about Cobain's death, the phrase "Grant claims" is written six times. Can't we get this a little more varied? When I was reading it, it seemed like all I could find was "Grant claims". -- BubbaYoshi 01:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
"After a few weeks of on-again, off-again courtship in the fall of 1991..." Who says? Does anybody really know anything about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.255.212 ( talk) 21:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Kurt Cobain is also mentioned in the book "About a boy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.227.10 ( talk) 23:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I was a pretty big Nirvana fan, back in the day. I never saw Kurdt referred to as "Kurdt" or any of the other multiple names someone keeps inserting. Please refrain from reinserting them without discussion and sourcing. K. Scott Bailey 14:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
On the back of the Bleach album he is referred to as Kurdt and he would often write Kurdt Kobain in his journal, so you are not a self-described big Nirvana fan if you didnt know that —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cmd1188 ( talk • contribs) 14:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The text says his ashes went to Tibet. However, many internet sources say it was fully or partly scattered in the Wishkah River. Could somebody give trustworthy evidence of either version? -- Vancouver robin 05:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is definitely not a "good article," as it treats a fringe conspiracy theory as equivalent in view to the official judicial finding of suicide, giving far too much space to a sensationalistic, scandalous, never-substantiated and never-tested-in-court allegation. Attempts at fixing this have been blindly reverted. The article is unstable, gives undue weight to a minority viewpoint and is thus incompatible with any definition of good article. I will allow five days for this problem to be solved before delisting. FCYTravis ( talk) 19:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The neutral point of view
The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions.
Every single person on rs list of greatist guitarist has this fact on the first paragraph on their page so if someone changes Cobains im gonna hit them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Blizzard King ( talk • contribs) 17:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Given discussion here, I'm going to remove the "Suicide dispute" section and reportion bits and pieces of it to the "Books on Cobain" section or other relevant articles. Further concerns can be listed here. WesleyDodds 03:06, 3 December 2007 (UTC)