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The statement regarding the killing of Zoroaster by Astyages, king of the Medes, is factually incorrect for three reasons. First, most Avesta and Iranian studies scholars, based upon language and geographic descriptions in the Avesta, place the time of the prophet Zoroaster to approx 3600 years in the region of Bactria/Balkh (Afghanistan/Uzbekistan). This time and place is: approx 1000 years before the time of Astyages and outside the geographic realm of the Medes. Second, the prophet Zoroaster was not killed by anyone, he died peacefully as an old man after accomplishing his task of converting the Iranians and Turanians to Zoroastrianism. Third, the mythological villain known as Azhi Dahak, from Shahname and the Avesta, was a myth even during the time of the prophet Zoroaster. So, if Zoroaster is dated to at least 1000 years before the Median king Astyages, and Azhi Dahak was a myth at the time of Zoroaster, then Azhi Dahak and Astyages can not have been the same historical figure. Also, Azhi Dahak is considered a villain in Kurdish and Persian mythology. The hero, Fereydoon, fought against Azhi Dahak, and according to Kurdish myth, Fereydoon is the father of the Kurdish people. As a final note, the Medes were Zoroastrians. The Medes also propagated the myth, although factually incorrect, that Zoroaster was born in Media and a Mede. So, it wouldn't make sense for the Medes to kill their own prophet. I think this just goes to the point that many Kurdish nationalist, and others, are trying desperately to distance themselves from anything and everything Iranic, and in the process are creating myths that cannot stand academic scruitny. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.210.29 ( talk • contribs) 23:22, 22 February 2006
The page has been protected due to edit wars and vandalism. Could those of you who oppose the article the way it stands right now (especially the first few paragraphs) explain your concerns so we can address them? As for the Iranian issue, as discussed in the first two section of this talk page (see above), some sources indicate that Kurds are close to Iranians, but Kurds are never defined as Iranians, so we've agreed that the word "Iranian" should not appear in the first paragraph when defining Kurdish people. On the other hand, Kurdish should be classified as an Iranian language, and it should be mentioned that some sources link Kurds to Iranian (just not in the first paragraph). Any deviations from this should first be discussed here (with proper sources). Aucaman Talk 14:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Well you raise some valid points, but I'm afraid most of them have been addressed before.
1. Kurds have a distinct ethnic group. They have their own distinct language and culture. That means they cannot be directly linked to any other ethnic group, be it Arabs, Turks, or Persians. All you can say is that they are "related" or "close" to another ethnic group.
2. Although Kurds are Iranian people linguistically, that's not an integral part of who they are. I made an analogy that should be useful. Linguistically, the English language is a [[Germanic language]], so English people are part of Germanic peoples. But if you go to the English people article, you don't see them being defined as Germanic because being Germanic is not an integral part of the English identity. If you go to the English people article and claim that the first sentence should read, "The English are a Germanic people inhabiting parts of England...." most would disagree with you although you're perfectly correct in saying the English are Germanic people. Why? Because the English are distinct ethnic group with a distinct ethnic characteristics. It's the same here. Kurds are a distinct ethnic group. This article is about Kurds and their ethnic characteristics. Any discussion about how closely Kurds are related to other ethnic groups should not appear in the first sentence of the article (where Kurds are being defined).
3. The term Iranian (or Iranian peoples) is not an ethnic group. It's a linguistic group of people.
4. Calling Kurds Iranians is also confusing to the more naive readers of Wikipedia since Iran is already the name of a country. Some readers might go away with the impression that Kurds are Iranian nationals living outside their country. See #2 with the English example. Most English would not introduce themselves as Germans. Aucaman Talk 23:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The article alraedy even in its itro -although is not necessary and essential- but has the mentioned info: Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European languange of the Iranian branch.According to some sources, they are ethnically close to Iranians.
I see nothing wrong with intro. D iyako Talk + 13:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
You are confussing this article with article Iranian peoples. Kurds are A distinct ethnic group. Their relationship with Iranian people is so worthless that we can only mention it in the infobox. If there is an obligation to describe Kurds with larger ethnic families, I strongly suggest to write Kurds are an Indo-European ethnic group, which is quit better and even do not mislead people as the term Iranian people (!) does which can mean people from Iran! Please be logical.
D iyako Talk + 14:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe it has been not only sufficiently but even too much accentuated and clarified, for the reasons already mentioned; Read it:
Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European languange of the Iranian branch.According to some sources, they are ethnically close to Iranians.
It is quite clear.
Thanks D iyako Talk + 17:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems to be that the Kurdish seperatists are willing to sacrifice truth for illusive political goals and that in my opinion the members of Jewish background here are trying to promote and nurture anti-Iranian views and seperate the Kurds from their very strong Iranian identy because of the political and military goals Israel has in Kurdistan and possible Kurdish oil and military bases. I always read all the contributers profiles and see what they edit, people like Acuman are clearly biased. Kurds are an ethnic Iranian people. No matter how many times this has been proven and verified these individuals argue against it for the wrong and political reasons.
What's interesting about all these so called pro-Kurdish separatist editors is that their edits are entirely directed against Iran. There is absolutely no mention or effort to address the plight of the Kurdish people in Turkey, which is a far more bigger oppressor of the Kurds than Iran ever was. Look at Bitlis Province, Van Province, Hakkari Province, Siirt Province, Şırnak Province. Do you see any mention of the Kurdish people living there today? Ive been to these places. They are fully Kurdish inhabited lands.
Why dont we see any of these so called Kurdish editors write anything about how the Kurds are suppressed in the articles Demographics of Turkey, or their history in eastern Anatolia?
Why dont we see any of these editors (like User:Mesopotamia and User:Heja Helweda among others) writing ANYTHING, or even voting to merge/delete/etc Kurdish pages pertaining to Turkey? (example) (example 2)
Except for User:Khoikhoi, I see none of these so called Kurdish editors even contributing to any of Turkey's Kurdish related pages. Funny how you can get arrested in Turkey for carrying around the Kurdish flag. And you see or hear nothing from these editors. Are these editors really protagonists of the Kurdish people?
Or...
...could it be that they are here only because they fucking hate Iran and Iranians from the bottom of their hearts? Mercenaries with an agenda to spread hatred against Iran on Wikipedia.
That's truly unfortunate.-- Zereshk 09:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Some of the personal attacks here are really not called for. You'd expect Kurdish articles to be somewhat controversial, but the things people are fighting about is really dumb. Both User:Heja Helweda and User:Mesopotamia seem perfectly good Wikipedians to me. User:Heja Helweda has done a lot of work having to do with Kurdish culture (most of them NOT political) and User:Mesopotamia seems to be working hard. I just started the Turkish Kurdistan a few days ago, and look where it's at now! (Most of it thanks to User:Mesopotamia.) I'm assuming you have some reasons for what you say, but it's not really relevant to the discussions we're having here (both of these users have not been really active here). Perhaps you should take these to your user talk pages?
As for other isssues, it looks like most people (more or less) approve of the way the first few paragraphs are written. I'm going to ask for unprotection in a few days, but I'll expect people to discuss things here before making controversial edits (especially the first few paragraphs). The failure to do so would be considered vandalism. Aucaman Talk 02:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Aucaman I am sorry but you are also one of the problems on this site. If anyone looks at the discussions they will see that you are two-faced editor meaning you have overt biase that is recognizable. You are one of the big problems and very underhanded. 69.196.139.250 03:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
What is this nonsense you some guys write here and waste your time??!
Is this all of your argument? Please act civil and lets go on friendly. We are all wikipedians not enemies and even if you think we are enemies forget it here in Wikipedia. IF we follow the wikipedia policy we never get troubles like this. Here one of the most important things (If not the most important one) is citiation and providing credible and neutral sources not our POV. D iyako Talk + 15:09, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask all editors who don't like the article in its currect shape, to provide their specific objections, then we may be able to improve the article, instead of engaging in endless personal arguements. So the question is what do you consider to be incorrect about this page?. Thanks. Heja Helweda 18:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The issue of whether the Kurds should be labeled “Iranian people” or not, since they speak an Iranian language, has been discussed to death! Some editors are really against mentioning it in the first paragraph and that is fine but the language issue should be mentioned in the second paragraph instead the article goes right into political stuff which I don’t think belongs here. Whether or not there should be an independent Kurdish state is not the first thing to mention while defining Kurdish people. We should talk about the race and language and their geographic location and then about politics.
The second paragraph should be moved farther down the page and the third and fourth paragraph should instead become second and third respectively.
It should look like this:
The Kurds are an ethnic group inhabiting northern and northeastern Mesopotamia, which includes parts of Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey (a region sometimes referred to as Kurdistan). Smaller communities can also be found in Lebanon, Armenia, and Azarbaijan (Kalbajar and Lachin, to the west of Nagorno Karabakh).
Ranging probably from 25 to 30 million people, Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European languange of the Iranian branch.
According to some sources, they are ethnically close to Iranians. Modern Kurds are commonly identified with the ancient Kingdom of Corduene inhabited by the Carduchi'
This should make everybody happy! It does not label Kurds as Iranian but it does mention that their language is of the Iranian branch in the beginning of the article.
Gol
21:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it's important to agree on what the introductory paragraphs should look like. I'm beginning to understand some of the concerns some people have, so I'm proposing this new version:
This is the most neutral version I can think of. I've trimmed off a lot of unnecessary political stuff. The last sentence was added to say something about the Kurdish culture, which is what this article should be about. Please take the time to compare it with the current protected version and indicate your support of opposition (with a short explanation). Accepting this as the introductory paragraph of the article would help ease the way to solving other problems in the body of the text. I'm not going to support unprotecting the article until some sort of compromise is reached. Aucaman Talk 23:57, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Well this is better than what we already have but I still think language and ethnicity should be mentioned before political stuff. It is important that there is no independent Kurdish state and it should be mentioned but it is not more important that their language so mention the language first and then get into political stuff.
Gol 06:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a clear definition of "Iranian people." It is: people who speak an Iranian language and Kurds most certainly do!
It has nothing to do with whether or not they are citizens of Iran or racially Iranian. No one can deny that fact and the only excuse that you and some other editors have is that it is going to be “confusing” !!!!
I think it is a poor excuse, this is an encyclopedia we are here to teach people not to be worried about their possible confusion. If they don’t know then they should learn. However since some of people have phobia to the name Iran we agreed to drop it from the first paragraph.
However the Kurdish language and where it is from is more important in defining Kurdish people than the political stuff and the fact that Kurdistan is not independent; so, here is the version that you asked me to mention:
The Kurds are an ethnic group inhabiting parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria (a region sometimes referred to as Kurdistan). Smaller communities can also be found in Lebanon, Armenia, and Azarbaijan (Kalbajar and Lachin, to the west of Nagorno Karabakh).
Ranging probably from 25 to 30 million people, Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch.''
At this point, or anytime after, it is ok to talk about politics but not before. This article should not start by talking about political stuff; culture and language is much more important in defining a group of people than whether or not they have political independence.
Gol
18:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
As I mentioned earlier it is important that Kurds do not have an independent country and should be mentioned but all I am saying is that their language is much more important element in defining their identity than their political situation and therefore should be mentioned before and in early parts of article. The current version looks as if someone is trying their hardest not to mention the word Iran or mention it as late as possible in the article. This is why the definition of Kurdish language is pushed down. I think we should rewrite it and I gave you an example of how it could look like. we agreed not to have the word "Iranian" on the first paragraph but other side should also agree to have the definition of Kurdish language which is clearly Iranian, on the second paragraph instead of going right into political stuff. And also some of the people who are arguing against the “Iranian people” page and talk about deleting it have shown to be extremely biased. A few of them have very clearly mentioned that they dislike the word “Iranian” and one of them said that there is no such race called “Persian”!!!!!!
I don’t think these people can be considered neutral. Do you?
Gol 06:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
This is the opening page on Britannica you see the language is mentioned Before the political stuff!
Member of an ethnic and linguistic group native to parts of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey (see Kurdistan).
Kurds speak one of two dialects of Kurdish, a West Iranian language related to Modern Persian. Traditionally nomadic, most were forced into farming by the redrawing of state borders after World War I (1914–18). Most Kurds are Sunnite Muslims; Sufism is widely practiced. Plans for a Kurdish state, promised by the Treaty of Sèvres (1920), which dissolved the Ottoman Empire, were never realized. Kurds in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq have been variously persecuted and pressured to assimilate;''
here is the link
http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9369508
Gol 07:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I already posted my version but here it is again and I mixed it a little based on what Britannica says:
The Kurds are an ethnic group inhabiting parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria (a region sometimes referred to as Kurdistan). Smaller communities can also be found in Lebanon, Armenia, and Azarbaijan (Kalbajar and Lachin, to the west of Nagorno Karabakh).
Ranging probably from 25 to 30 million people, Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch.''
Kurds comprise one of the largest ethnic groups in the world without a separate country. Plans for a Kurdish state, promised by the Treaty of Sèvres (1920), which dissolved the Ottoman Empire, were never realized (link to Britannica). Kurds in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq have been variously persecuted and pressured to assimilate;'
Gol 20:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to interrupt you! just to offer another reference: The Kurds are the original Iranians. as defined by United Nations: [15]-- Gorbeh 15:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
About Iranian as an ethnicity, if I remember correctly, most people here agree that "Iranian" is not an ethnic group. This article is about Kurds as an ethnic group. If there's no Iranian ethnic group then there's no reason to call Kurds Iranian when defining their ethnicity. POV-pushing is simply not fair. If you look at most ethnic group articles, they don't bring linguistic classification into ethnic group definitions. I mentioned English people and their classification as Germanic peoples. Now I mention Turkish people. That article was a mess, but it has improved a lot due to close cooperation and agreement. As you can see, there's no mention of the fact that Turkish people are Turkic people (or even that they speak a Turkic language). Why can't we have the same thing here? (I'm still waiting for User:Gol to propose his/her version of the article.) Aucaman Talk 20:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
If you thought it was just some bellicose anti-Iranian so called Kurdish editors trying to erase the memory of Iran on Wikipedia, think again.
These people are supported by or aligned with western intelligence agencies, and they specifically intend to bring
"violent fragmentation" to Iran.--
Zereshk
20:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I already posted my version above but here it is again and I mixed it a little based on what Britannica says:
The Kurds are an ethnic group inhabiting parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria (a region sometimes referred to as Kurdistan). Smaller communities can also be found in Lebanon, Armenia, and Azarbaijan (Kalbajar and Lachin, to the west of Nagorno Karabakh).
Ranging probably from 25 to 30 million people, Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch.''
Kurds comprise one of the largest ethnic groups in the world without a separate country. Plans for a Kurdish state, promised by the Treaty of Sèvres (1920), which dissolved the Ottoman Empire, were never realized (link to Britannica). Kurds in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq have been variously persecuted and pressured to assimilate;
Gol 21:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Since the article is currently locked, please change either the infobox count or the one in the text... they give two different figures. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.181.63.245 ( talk • contribs) 08:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Since I haven't heard from anyone in 3-4 days I'm assuming no one has any serious problems with the way the article stands right now? If this continues, I'll ask the article be unprotected on the grounds that there are no serious disputes. Aucaman Talk 11:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Shervink and also,
I though we were trying to see how many people agreed with the opening paragraph that I proposed; Looks like a lot of editors considered it acceptable and some thought it needs some changes. However, the attention was suddenly shifted to “Persian people” and “Iranian people” in recent days so we stopped discussing Kurds.
Gol 15:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Well I tried addressing your concerns but you simply ignored my questions. The paragraphs indicate that Kurdish is an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch. You say that the relation is not simply linguistic and that other relations would have to be discussed. Question: What are these other relations? Question: What makes you think these other relations are significant enough to be mentioned in the introductory paragraph of an article about Kurds? Please include convincing evidence in your answers (even if you've already mentioned them before). Aucaman Talk 16:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Kurds are an iranic people. infact, there are even theory's that the safavids were infact kurds, not azeri's. kurds are just as iranic and tajik's, persians, talysh's, etc... --Iranian Patriot
what do you mean so what? people are in here saying that they arent, when they are. do we have any iranian kurds in here? it seems that the only ones making these assertions are non iranians, and non kurds. and iranian kurds do not want to seperate for the most part. its mostly iraqi kurds and turkish kurds that say that. they have had it worse then iranian kurds have so they want independent states, while iranian kurds have been treated better than turkish kurds and iraqi kurds. -- Iranian Patriot
You obviously have an agenda man. i can tell by your user page. first of all, the disturbances in kurdistan province of iran was not due to persecution towards kurds. it all started with a pro democracy reporter being killed. then, like any iranian people would do, the kurds protested. the governmetn clamped down on them because it is a dictatorship. there was nothing done against kurds that the azeri controlled government wouldnt have done to persians or azeri's or balouchi's etc...
if you also remember, the protests in tehran in 1999 (18 tir) were also clamped down on hard, but do you call that persecution against persians? no you dont, so why do you call the government clamping down on pro democracy kurds persecution strictly towards them?
and in regards about arab sepratism: it does not exist in iran and is being fueled by outsiders. for example, the bombs in khouzestan are by teh terrorist group al ahwaz which is based in europe and is backed by the british government. iranian arabs had in chance to seperate from iran in 1980 when saddam invaded, but they did not seperate, instead they fought to the last man to defend iranian soil in khorramshahr, abadan, ahwaz, etc... arabs in iran know that they are iranian and they have defended iran many times in history! they have always been loyal, and have never wanted seperation.
i bet that you are probably a turkish or iraqi kurd... they have always had it rough, but iranian kurds were never treated like they were in iraq or turkey, they have been allowed to speak their language, practice their beliefs, etc... the mullahs persecute everyone in iran. they dont target a certain ethnicity at all, and like i said, they probably persecute persians more than anyone.
-- Iranian Patriot.
what previous government were you talking about? are you talking about the pahlavi's? they werent even persian, they were gilaki! before you criticise persians, why dont you read up on irans history. persians have never oppressed any of their fellow iranic, and non iranic brothers and sisters. no matter how much you try, you will never be able to split iran apart. iran has always been a tolerant nation towards other ethnicities. iran will always remain iran. -- Iranian Patriot
There is no question about this. Infact the leader of a pan-Iranist party called Mellat Iran, Mr. Forouhar was a Kurd! -- Kash 13:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi to all.I am a Kurd who lives in Turkey.I want to say that at first,Turks and Kurds have been living friendly in these lands and we shouldn't fool the provacations of other powers.Turks were always nice for us.They have never done discrimination against us.Turkey saved more than 700,000 Kurds from Saddam's massacre and Armenian butchery.We're already too close to eachother.The only problem is that we can't call ourselves as "Kurd" and use our languages officially.They are right at one point actually.There are more than 30 nations in Turkey and Turkey wants to keep it's unity.There are maximum 40 millioın Turks in Turkey.However everybody call themselves as a Turk but state must be more tolerant against roots.I want to say something about PKK also.PKK is a terror organisation and they are killing Kurds as well.Abdullah Öcalan already can't speak Kurdish because he's Armenian origin.Yeah Turkey is killing PKK militants.Everybody would do so.I have grown up by my country's money.I used it's services and Turkey's army protected me.I just want more rights about my origin.That's all.I don't to leave my country or seperation.Thanks -- 194.27.151.66 14:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
nice try pan turkist person, but its evident from your post that you are not kurdist at all. first off because of your anti armenian stance, second off because you say that turkey saved hundreds of thousands of kurds, third off because you say that you agree with turkey not allowing kurds to speak their language or call themseles kurds.
typical pan turkish person.
Hey patriot, you can't accuse anyone so that he doesn't share same opinion with you.I only said why that's so.Of course i want to speak my own language in my country but that might be a problem between other nations in Turkey. --
Kurmanchi
10:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
--Iranian Patriot.
Sorry, but your talks are not really relevant to the issues at hand. The current dispute in the article are very clear: we're debating over the contents of the first few paragraphs. After the dispute is resolved we can talk about other things. Aucaman Talk 17:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Max 40 million Turks???!!!...Hahaha.By the way what right do you want anymore? You have your own political party, you speak your language everywhere(very loudly), you're the reason of the crime in Turkey...so what do you want anymore? Our country? Keep dreaming...
Iranian:
Do you deny what have armenians done about kurds?! I didnt suprised.Iran is co-operating with armenia then you're saying "we are working for all islam world".How honest!
Don't you know that Turkey admited hundreds thousands of kurds from iraq in Turgut Özal's(Turkey's kurdish origin ex-president who was a bad president for Turkey) era.They caused a chaos.We lost 300 billion dollars(Very big money for 80's) during the gulf war.Kurds got spoiled by his rule... Inanna 22:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe in this discussion...I'm a Turk who lived between Kurds for years,who has been bestfriends with two Kurdish guys for 15 years now.I'm living in Belgium but was born in Istanbul,we came here 16 years ago and have been living in the same street where Turks and Kurds live together.I remember the time when PKK was terrorising the eastern side of Turkey,they killed thousands and they killed and dragged away their own people too and everybody knows that,the ones in denial not of course.I remember our mothers were crying while watching TV,my mother and my friends' mothers..who are Kurds indeed,were crying for their people(Kurds and Turks both) who suffered this stupid war,crying for their country(Turkey).I just can't understand how blind you guys are.Can't you see that this all is a power game?!That Turks and Kurds have been living together for countless years!The terror that has been going on was a big sickness because a guy wanted to feel so powerfull.Mr.Ocalan indeed,similar to what Bush is doing to the countries he's secretly terrorising and what Bin Ladin tries.The times I've been to Turkey,evey summer, sometimes I stayed with Kurds,I ate their food and never ever sensed animosity.My grandparents are living in a district called Sisli in Istanbul with Armenians and Jews,eating their food,shopping in their shops,building their friendships with them for years.This is how real people do in their lives in Turkey,they don't fight.Kurds have the right to speak their languages as well as Jews and Armenians do.We all have been living in the same country for ages.I never doubt their kindness and thoughts for the Turkish Republic,because I know they call themselves Turks as well as they call themselves as what their original origin is.'Cos they are also Turks indeed,since thay are living in the same country for years.Turkey is a big coloured mosaic of languages and races.It will always stay as one,as "Turkiye Cumhuriyeti",with it's Turkish,Armenian,Jew and Kurdish public.There is NO animosity in the villages,NO animosity in the cities.Only among politicians and people seeking for power to conquer the world or a territory both Kurds and Turks.Real people just cry for that sickness... Friendly regards to all of you, M.Citak---- Set 03:11, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
If the kurds (in general,not individualy) feel this way about the turks,as the previous user stated,and if they all think that Ocalan was a terrorist,i wonder if all those people who did these things are pro-turkish [23](it's a timeline and catalogue of the kurdish anger-justifiable according to my POV-the day after Ocalan's arrest)-- Hectorian 03:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Friend, Either you have no knowledge in English or you are just trying to go againts everyone here.If you just scroll up you will see that I indeed SAID that the real terrorists and sick minded people are politicians,both Turks and Kurds.All I tried to say was that the real folks don't get into fights like this. Because they have the knowledge of how to live together in the same community with different races.As you made your point of what you think PKK is,I will show you what its president and founder is...just as I said it was,a terrorist,even knowledged by Iran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_%C3%96calan PS:Turks haven't been living with Kurds,but Kurds have been living with Turks(Ottomans if you wanna dig in to history)... And about those protests and whatever the second one is showing to me;there are people in Turkey and around the world mostly Turks of course protesting againts Kurds,as well as Kurds protesting againts Turks.They are not living in Turkey and are easily provocated by the media.This is what one calls provocated acts.Turks that get provocated by their sick-minded politicians and parties and Kurds that get provocated by theirs. Again,This is still getting miles away off the topic here.I just tried to shake you guys up,so you would stop this stupid fight and focus on the article so that it will finaly be unlocked. Please stop this "Kurds Turks Enemies,my dad can beat your dad up" childishness and focus on the damn page,gosh...-- Set 14:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
You guys need to solve this. So far, this has gotten WAY off topic, and your rantings are getting way off. Solve this dispute, for the sake of God.This all began with a sentence phrasing, and now it's about politics and Turkey. How did this go from whether or not Kurds are Iranian to this? I don't know.
And why is it that it is this page and other Kurdish things that have these problems? This page is actually clean compared to some other mess that floats around in Wikipedia and hasn't been touched. Please, solve this thing and get on with your lives. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MercZ ( talk • contribs) 08:17, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't Aramic be included in the section where it discusses the language of the Kurds? Most of the Jewish Kurds and Christian Kurds speak Aramic as a first language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.9.155 ( talk • contribs)
I see no constructive discussion here in recent days. Perhaps a period of editing is what is required. I'm removing the protection and will watch closely. Be aware that I don't tolerate nonsense. -- Tony Sidaway 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
This article refers to it as being banned in much of middle east.. can we have a reference to this? Thanks -- Kash 00:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
It must be talked out until the problems are settled it is not neutral. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.196.139.250 ( talk • contribs) 16:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Due to recent edit warring, I've protected this article for just a few hours so that everybody can cool off. Please use this talk page to discuss any changes so that we can reach agreement on what to do with the article. -- Tony Sidaway 17:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
You are ceating a Kurdish History.Do you believe all of these?You are very comic.Just ignorant people believe these lies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.100.72.41 ( talk • contribs) 17:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The history section of this article should be edited. I did it once but it was changed back to the original content. The way it is written people will assume that those early cultures and civilizations were Kurdish. The history of the area where the Kurds now live is NOT kurdish history. To claim otherwise would be the same as saying that the ancient Egyptians were Arabs! Dariush4444 22:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
It is inconsistant and badly structured. It deviates from established facts which is a shame for presenting the rich heritage of Kurds to the wider world. It should be edited. 69.196.139.250 01:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
How can one lone article of a sporadic genetic research undo all the cultural and historic ties of kurds as this essential element of Iranian history Iran as concept is built by all the varied ethnic groups who at different periods in history have taken up the leadership of this entity
so just Corduene ... who were the Medes & sassanids then or even safavids ..
saying that modern kurds are commonly identified with the ancient Kingdom of Corduene inhabited by the Carduchi is false or a half truth as kurds (or if you are happy say the people inhabiting the mountains where kurdish is mostly spoken)are also identified with many past great Iranian kingdoms
How can it be verified in Wiki sense of the word that so and so kingdom was genetically more similar to the current population of that area
If Hamedan lets say at one point has had a jewish majority would you take it out of Iranian history and add it the History of Israel what if turkish kurdistan would have had a majority armenian population for most of its history...if what ties all is the language then its of the Iranian family and so you are my brother..if its the customs all I can say is ...a happy norouz or newroz to all kurdish brothers who are happy enough not to be touched by modern crusaders and propogandists ...-- Loosekarma 03:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Claiming that the Kurds are an Iranian people is a big claim. I cannot find any reasonably neutral source calling them that. What sources do you have – maybe we can attribute the claim to those sources. -- Latinus 14:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
We've had A LOT of discussions about this. Kurds are a part of Iranian peoples due to linguistic reasons. Some sources say they're ethnically close to Iranians (people of the country of Iran). The two should not be mixed. Iranian peoples as a whole don't constitute an ethnic group anyway, so if you want to say Kurds are ethnically close to Iranians the link should go to demographics of Iran. Aucaman Talk 15:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The Kurdish People is a Irania People, The Kurdish language is a Irania language. -- Muhamed 19:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Yet another source [26], they are as Iranian as Persians are Iranian. This is an academic, published journal. We have enough sources to back this up now -- Kash 22:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I put the tag because we cannot everyday start and continue this debate, I'm waiting for a mediation. I do not know since when the most Authorative Encyclopedias of the world Britannica, encyclopedia of Columbia and Encarta are ignored and replaced with unknown random links. D iyako Talk + 23:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
The Kurds, who constitute approximately 7% of Iran's overall population, have resisted the Iranian government's efforts, both before and after the revolution of 1979, to assimilate them into the mainstream of national life and, along with their fellow Kurds in adjacent regions of Iraq and Turkey, have sought either regional autonomy or the outright establishment of an independent Kurdish state in the region. [27]
This seems very POV to me, and also the link was incorrect. Removed it for now -- Kash 23:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The Kurds are of Iranian stock...Kurds and Persians share common ancestors, which include the Medes...Kurdish and Persian are sister languages. Unlike Turkey, where Kurds are not Turks, and unlike Iraq, where Kurds are not Arabs, in Iran, Kurds are ethnic brethren of the dominant ethnic group, the Persians. In Iran, the problem is not ethnic or cultural, the problem is of a religious nature. Kurds in Iran are predominantly Sunni...so they are Sunnis living in a Shi'ite state. But let us be fair...how did the Sunni Saddam Hussein and his Sunni Ba'ath government treat Kurds? How does Sunni Turkey treat its Kurds? Shi'ite Iran has treated Kurds better than both, because Iranians see Kurds as fellow Iranians, which they are...as for those Kurdish separatists who think they can carve an independant Kurdistan out of western Iran, they can keep on dreaming...not only will Iranians not accept it, Turkey will never allow it, just as Turkey did not allow that to happen in northern Iraq.
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The statement regarding the killing of Zoroaster by Astyages, king of the Medes, is factually incorrect for three reasons. First, most Avesta and Iranian studies scholars, based upon language and geographic descriptions in the Avesta, place the time of the prophet Zoroaster to approx 3600 years in the region of Bactria/Balkh (Afghanistan/Uzbekistan). This time and place is: approx 1000 years before the time of Astyages and outside the geographic realm of the Medes. Second, the prophet Zoroaster was not killed by anyone, he died peacefully as an old man after accomplishing his task of converting the Iranians and Turanians to Zoroastrianism. Third, the mythological villain known as Azhi Dahak, from Shahname and the Avesta, was a myth even during the time of the prophet Zoroaster. So, if Zoroaster is dated to at least 1000 years before the Median king Astyages, and Azhi Dahak was a myth at the time of Zoroaster, then Azhi Dahak and Astyages can not have been the same historical figure. Also, Azhi Dahak is considered a villain in Kurdish and Persian mythology. The hero, Fereydoon, fought against Azhi Dahak, and according to Kurdish myth, Fereydoon is the father of the Kurdish people. As a final note, the Medes were Zoroastrians. The Medes also propagated the myth, although factually incorrect, that Zoroaster was born in Media and a Mede. So, it wouldn't make sense for the Medes to kill their own prophet. I think this just goes to the point that many Kurdish nationalist, and others, are trying desperately to distance themselves from anything and everything Iranic, and in the process are creating myths that cannot stand academic scruitny. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.210.29 ( talk • contribs) 23:22, 22 February 2006
The page has been protected due to edit wars and vandalism. Could those of you who oppose the article the way it stands right now (especially the first few paragraphs) explain your concerns so we can address them? As for the Iranian issue, as discussed in the first two section of this talk page (see above), some sources indicate that Kurds are close to Iranians, but Kurds are never defined as Iranians, so we've agreed that the word "Iranian" should not appear in the first paragraph when defining Kurdish people. On the other hand, Kurdish should be classified as an Iranian language, and it should be mentioned that some sources link Kurds to Iranian (just not in the first paragraph). Any deviations from this should first be discussed here (with proper sources). Aucaman Talk 14:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Well you raise some valid points, but I'm afraid most of them have been addressed before.
1. Kurds have a distinct ethnic group. They have their own distinct language and culture. That means they cannot be directly linked to any other ethnic group, be it Arabs, Turks, or Persians. All you can say is that they are "related" or "close" to another ethnic group.
2. Although Kurds are Iranian people linguistically, that's not an integral part of who they are. I made an analogy that should be useful. Linguistically, the English language is a [[Germanic language]], so English people are part of Germanic peoples. But if you go to the English people article, you don't see them being defined as Germanic because being Germanic is not an integral part of the English identity. If you go to the English people article and claim that the first sentence should read, "The English are a Germanic people inhabiting parts of England...." most would disagree with you although you're perfectly correct in saying the English are Germanic people. Why? Because the English are distinct ethnic group with a distinct ethnic characteristics. It's the same here. Kurds are a distinct ethnic group. This article is about Kurds and their ethnic characteristics. Any discussion about how closely Kurds are related to other ethnic groups should not appear in the first sentence of the article (where Kurds are being defined).
3. The term Iranian (or Iranian peoples) is not an ethnic group. It's a linguistic group of people.
4. Calling Kurds Iranians is also confusing to the more naive readers of Wikipedia since Iran is already the name of a country. Some readers might go away with the impression that Kurds are Iranian nationals living outside their country. See #2 with the English example. Most English would not introduce themselves as Germans. Aucaman Talk 23:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The article alraedy even in its itro -although is not necessary and essential- but has the mentioned info: Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European languange of the Iranian branch.According to some sources, they are ethnically close to Iranians.
I see nothing wrong with intro. D iyako Talk + 13:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
You are confussing this article with article Iranian peoples. Kurds are A distinct ethnic group. Their relationship with Iranian people is so worthless that we can only mention it in the infobox. If there is an obligation to describe Kurds with larger ethnic families, I strongly suggest to write Kurds are an Indo-European ethnic group, which is quit better and even do not mislead people as the term Iranian people (!) does which can mean people from Iran! Please be logical.
D iyako Talk + 14:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe it has been not only sufficiently but even too much accentuated and clarified, for the reasons already mentioned; Read it:
Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European languange of the Iranian branch.According to some sources, they are ethnically close to Iranians.
It is quite clear.
Thanks D iyako Talk + 17:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems to be that the Kurdish seperatists are willing to sacrifice truth for illusive political goals and that in my opinion the members of Jewish background here are trying to promote and nurture anti-Iranian views and seperate the Kurds from their very strong Iranian identy because of the political and military goals Israel has in Kurdistan and possible Kurdish oil and military bases. I always read all the contributers profiles and see what they edit, people like Acuman are clearly biased. Kurds are an ethnic Iranian people. No matter how many times this has been proven and verified these individuals argue against it for the wrong and political reasons.
What's interesting about all these so called pro-Kurdish separatist editors is that their edits are entirely directed against Iran. There is absolutely no mention or effort to address the plight of the Kurdish people in Turkey, which is a far more bigger oppressor of the Kurds than Iran ever was. Look at Bitlis Province, Van Province, Hakkari Province, Siirt Province, Şırnak Province. Do you see any mention of the Kurdish people living there today? Ive been to these places. They are fully Kurdish inhabited lands.
Why dont we see any of these so called Kurdish editors write anything about how the Kurds are suppressed in the articles Demographics of Turkey, or their history in eastern Anatolia?
Why dont we see any of these editors (like User:Mesopotamia and User:Heja Helweda among others) writing ANYTHING, or even voting to merge/delete/etc Kurdish pages pertaining to Turkey? (example) (example 2)
Except for User:Khoikhoi, I see none of these so called Kurdish editors even contributing to any of Turkey's Kurdish related pages. Funny how you can get arrested in Turkey for carrying around the Kurdish flag. And you see or hear nothing from these editors. Are these editors really protagonists of the Kurdish people?
Or...
...could it be that they are here only because they fucking hate Iran and Iranians from the bottom of their hearts? Mercenaries with an agenda to spread hatred against Iran on Wikipedia.
That's truly unfortunate.-- Zereshk 09:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Some of the personal attacks here are really not called for. You'd expect Kurdish articles to be somewhat controversial, but the things people are fighting about is really dumb. Both User:Heja Helweda and User:Mesopotamia seem perfectly good Wikipedians to me. User:Heja Helweda has done a lot of work having to do with Kurdish culture (most of them NOT political) and User:Mesopotamia seems to be working hard. I just started the Turkish Kurdistan a few days ago, and look where it's at now! (Most of it thanks to User:Mesopotamia.) I'm assuming you have some reasons for what you say, but it's not really relevant to the discussions we're having here (both of these users have not been really active here). Perhaps you should take these to your user talk pages?
As for other isssues, it looks like most people (more or less) approve of the way the first few paragraphs are written. I'm going to ask for unprotection in a few days, but I'll expect people to discuss things here before making controversial edits (especially the first few paragraphs). The failure to do so would be considered vandalism. Aucaman Talk 02:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Aucaman I am sorry but you are also one of the problems on this site. If anyone looks at the discussions they will see that you are two-faced editor meaning you have overt biase that is recognizable. You are one of the big problems and very underhanded. 69.196.139.250 03:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
What is this nonsense you some guys write here and waste your time??!
Is this all of your argument? Please act civil and lets go on friendly. We are all wikipedians not enemies and even if you think we are enemies forget it here in Wikipedia. IF we follow the wikipedia policy we never get troubles like this. Here one of the most important things (If not the most important one) is citiation and providing credible and neutral sources not our POV. D iyako Talk + 15:09, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask all editors who don't like the article in its currect shape, to provide their specific objections, then we may be able to improve the article, instead of engaging in endless personal arguements. So the question is what do you consider to be incorrect about this page?. Thanks. Heja Helweda 18:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The issue of whether the Kurds should be labeled “Iranian people” or not, since they speak an Iranian language, has been discussed to death! Some editors are really against mentioning it in the first paragraph and that is fine but the language issue should be mentioned in the second paragraph instead the article goes right into political stuff which I don’t think belongs here. Whether or not there should be an independent Kurdish state is not the first thing to mention while defining Kurdish people. We should talk about the race and language and their geographic location and then about politics.
The second paragraph should be moved farther down the page and the third and fourth paragraph should instead become second and third respectively.
It should look like this:
The Kurds are an ethnic group inhabiting northern and northeastern Mesopotamia, which includes parts of Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey (a region sometimes referred to as Kurdistan). Smaller communities can also be found in Lebanon, Armenia, and Azarbaijan (Kalbajar and Lachin, to the west of Nagorno Karabakh).
Ranging probably from 25 to 30 million people, Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European languange of the Iranian branch.
According to some sources, they are ethnically close to Iranians. Modern Kurds are commonly identified with the ancient Kingdom of Corduene inhabited by the Carduchi'
This should make everybody happy! It does not label Kurds as Iranian but it does mention that their language is of the Iranian branch in the beginning of the article.
Gol
21:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it's important to agree on what the introductory paragraphs should look like. I'm beginning to understand some of the concerns some people have, so I'm proposing this new version:
This is the most neutral version I can think of. I've trimmed off a lot of unnecessary political stuff. The last sentence was added to say something about the Kurdish culture, which is what this article should be about. Please take the time to compare it with the current protected version and indicate your support of opposition (with a short explanation). Accepting this as the introductory paragraph of the article would help ease the way to solving other problems in the body of the text. I'm not going to support unprotecting the article until some sort of compromise is reached. Aucaman Talk 23:57, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Well this is better than what we already have but I still think language and ethnicity should be mentioned before political stuff. It is important that there is no independent Kurdish state and it should be mentioned but it is not more important that their language so mention the language first and then get into political stuff.
Gol 06:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a clear definition of "Iranian people." It is: people who speak an Iranian language and Kurds most certainly do!
It has nothing to do with whether or not they are citizens of Iran or racially Iranian. No one can deny that fact and the only excuse that you and some other editors have is that it is going to be “confusing” !!!!
I think it is a poor excuse, this is an encyclopedia we are here to teach people not to be worried about their possible confusion. If they don’t know then they should learn. However since some of people have phobia to the name Iran we agreed to drop it from the first paragraph.
However the Kurdish language and where it is from is more important in defining Kurdish people than the political stuff and the fact that Kurdistan is not independent; so, here is the version that you asked me to mention:
The Kurds are an ethnic group inhabiting parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria (a region sometimes referred to as Kurdistan). Smaller communities can also be found in Lebanon, Armenia, and Azarbaijan (Kalbajar and Lachin, to the west of Nagorno Karabakh).
Ranging probably from 25 to 30 million people, Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch.''
At this point, or anytime after, it is ok to talk about politics but not before. This article should not start by talking about political stuff; culture and language is much more important in defining a group of people than whether or not they have political independence.
Gol
18:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
As I mentioned earlier it is important that Kurds do not have an independent country and should be mentioned but all I am saying is that their language is much more important element in defining their identity than their political situation and therefore should be mentioned before and in early parts of article. The current version looks as if someone is trying their hardest not to mention the word Iran or mention it as late as possible in the article. This is why the definition of Kurdish language is pushed down. I think we should rewrite it and I gave you an example of how it could look like. we agreed not to have the word "Iranian" on the first paragraph but other side should also agree to have the definition of Kurdish language which is clearly Iranian, on the second paragraph instead of going right into political stuff. And also some of the people who are arguing against the “Iranian people” page and talk about deleting it have shown to be extremely biased. A few of them have very clearly mentioned that they dislike the word “Iranian” and one of them said that there is no such race called “Persian”!!!!!!
I don’t think these people can be considered neutral. Do you?
Gol 06:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
This is the opening page on Britannica you see the language is mentioned Before the political stuff!
Member of an ethnic and linguistic group native to parts of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey (see Kurdistan).
Kurds speak one of two dialects of Kurdish, a West Iranian language related to Modern Persian. Traditionally nomadic, most were forced into farming by the redrawing of state borders after World War I (1914–18). Most Kurds are Sunnite Muslims; Sufism is widely practiced. Plans for a Kurdish state, promised by the Treaty of Sèvres (1920), which dissolved the Ottoman Empire, were never realized. Kurds in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq have been variously persecuted and pressured to assimilate;''
here is the link
http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9369508
Gol 07:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I already posted my version but here it is again and I mixed it a little based on what Britannica says:
The Kurds are an ethnic group inhabiting parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria (a region sometimes referred to as Kurdistan). Smaller communities can also be found in Lebanon, Armenia, and Azarbaijan (Kalbajar and Lachin, to the west of Nagorno Karabakh).
Ranging probably from 25 to 30 million people, Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch.''
Kurds comprise one of the largest ethnic groups in the world without a separate country. Plans for a Kurdish state, promised by the Treaty of Sèvres (1920), which dissolved the Ottoman Empire, were never realized (link to Britannica). Kurds in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq have been variously persecuted and pressured to assimilate;'
Gol 20:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to interrupt you! just to offer another reference: The Kurds are the original Iranians. as defined by United Nations: [15]-- Gorbeh 15:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
About Iranian as an ethnicity, if I remember correctly, most people here agree that "Iranian" is not an ethnic group. This article is about Kurds as an ethnic group. If there's no Iranian ethnic group then there's no reason to call Kurds Iranian when defining their ethnicity. POV-pushing is simply not fair. If you look at most ethnic group articles, they don't bring linguistic classification into ethnic group definitions. I mentioned English people and their classification as Germanic peoples. Now I mention Turkish people. That article was a mess, but it has improved a lot due to close cooperation and agreement. As you can see, there's no mention of the fact that Turkish people are Turkic people (or even that they speak a Turkic language). Why can't we have the same thing here? (I'm still waiting for User:Gol to propose his/her version of the article.) Aucaman Talk 20:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
If you thought it was just some bellicose anti-Iranian so called Kurdish editors trying to erase the memory of Iran on Wikipedia, think again.
These people are supported by or aligned with western intelligence agencies, and they specifically intend to bring
"violent fragmentation" to Iran.--
Zereshk
20:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I already posted my version above but here it is again and I mixed it a little based on what Britannica says:
The Kurds are an ethnic group inhabiting parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria (a region sometimes referred to as Kurdistan). Smaller communities can also be found in Lebanon, Armenia, and Azarbaijan (Kalbajar and Lachin, to the west of Nagorno Karabakh).
Ranging probably from 25 to 30 million people, Kurds speak the mostly mutually-intelligible dialects of the Kurdish language, which is an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch.''
Kurds comprise one of the largest ethnic groups in the world without a separate country. Plans for a Kurdish state, promised by the Treaty of Sèvres (1920), which dissolved the Ottoman Empire, were never realized (link to Britannica). Kurds in Turkey, Iran, and Iraq have been variously persecuted and pressured to assimilate;
Gol 21:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Since the article is currently locked, please change either the infobox count or the one in the text... they give two different figures. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.181.63.245 ( talk • contribs) 08:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Since I haven't heard from anyone in 3-4 days I'm assuming no one has any serious problems with the way the article stands right now? If this continues, I'll ask the article be unprotected on the grounds that there are no serious disputes. Aucaman Talk 11:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Shervink and also,
I though we were trying to see how many people agreed with the opening paragraph that I proposed; Looks like a lot of editors considered it acceptable and some thought it needs some changes. However, the attention was suddenly shifted to “Persian people” and “Iranian people” in recent days so we stopped discussing Kurds.
Gol 15:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Well I tried addressing your concerns but you simply ignored my questions. The paragraphs indicate that Kurdish is an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch. You say that the relation is not simply linguistic and that other relations would have to be discussed. Question: What are these other relations? Question: What makes you think these other relations are significant enough to be mentioned in the introductory paragraph of an article about Kurds? Please include convincing evidence in your answers (even if you've already mentioned them before). Aucaman Talk 16:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Kurds are an iranic people. infact, there are even theory's that the safavids were infact kurds, not azeri's. kurds are just as iranic and tajik's, persians, talysh's, etc... --Iranian Patriot
what do you mean so what? people are in here saying that they arent, when they are. do we have any iranian kurds in here? it seems that the only ones making these assertions are non iranians, and non kurds. and iranian kurds do not want to seperate for the most part. its mostly iraqi kurds and turkish kurds that say that. they have had it worse then iranian kurds have so they want independent states, while iranian kurds have been treated better than turkish kurds and iraqi kurds. -- Iranian Patriot
You obviously have an agenda man. i can tell by your user page. first of all, the disturbances in kurdistan province of iran was not due to persecution towards kurds. it all started with a pro democracy reporter being killed. then, like any iranian people would do, the kurds protested. the governmetn clamped down on them because it is a dictatorship. there was nothing done against kurds that the azeri controlled government wouldnt have done to persians or azeri's or balouchi's etc...
if you also remember, the protests in tehran in 1999 (18 tir) were also clamped down on hard, but do you call that persecution against persians? no you dont, so why do you call the government clamping down on pro democracy kurds persecution strictly towards them?
and in regards about arab sepratism: it does not exist in iran and is being fueled by outsiders. for example, the bombs in khouzestan are by teh terrorist group al ahwaz which is based in europe and is backed by the british government. iranian arabs had in chance to seperate from iran in 1980 when saddam invaded, but they did not seperate, instead they fought to the last man to defend iranian soil in khorramshahr, abadan, ahwaz, etc... arabs in iran know that they are iranian and they have defended iran many times in history! they have always been loyal, and have never wanted seperation.
i bet that you are probably a turkish or iraqi kurd... they have always had it rough, but iranian kurds were never treated like they were in iraq or turkey, they have been allowed to speak their language, practice their beliefs, etc... the mullahs persecute everyone in iran. they dont target a certain ethnicity at all, and like i said, they probably persecute persians more than anyone.
-- Iranian Patriot.
what previous government were you talking about? are you talking about the pahlavi's? they werent even persian, they were gilaki! before you criticise persians, why dont you read up on irans history. persians have never oppressed any of their fellow iranic, and non iranic brothers and sisters. no matter how much you try, you will never be able to split iran apart. iran has always been a tolerant nation towards other ethnicities. iran will always remain iran. -- Iranian Patriot
There is no question about this. Infact the leader of a pan-Iranist party called Mellat Iran, Mr. Forouhar was a Kurd! -- Kash 13:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi to all.I am a Kurd who lives in Turkey.I want to say that at first,Turks and Kurds have been living friendly in these lands and we shouldn't fool the provacations of other powers.Turks were always nice for us.They have never done discrimination against us.Turkey saved more than 700,000 Kurds from Saddam's massacre and Armenian butchery.We're already too close to eachother.The only problem is that we can't call ourselves as "Kurd" and use our languages officially.They are right at one point actually.There are more than 30 nations in Turkey and Turkey wants to keep it's unity.There are maximum 40 millioın Turks in Turkey.However everybody call themselves as a Turk but state must be more tolerant against roots.I want to say something about PKK also.PKK is a terror organisation and they are killing Kurds as well.Abdullah Öcalan already can't speak Kurdish because he's Armenian origin.Yeah Turkey is killing PKK militants.Everybody would do so.I have grown up by my country's money.I used it's services and Turkey's army protected me.I just want more rights about my origin.That's all.I don't to leave my country or seperation.Thanks -- 194.27.151.66 14:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
nice try pan turkist person, but its evident from your post that you are not kurdist at all. first off because of your anti armenian stance, second off because you say that turkey saved hundreds of thousands of kurds, third off because you say that you agree with turkey not allowing kurds to speak their language or call themseles kurds.
typical pan turkish person.
Hey patriot, you can't accuse anyone so that he doesn't share same opinion with you.I only said why that's so.Of course i want to speak my own language in my country but that might be a problem between other nations in Turkey. --
Kurmanchi
10:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
--Iranian Patriot.
Sorry, but your talks are not really relevant to the issues at hand. The current dispute in the article are very clear: we're debating over the contents of the first few paragraphs. After the dispute is resolved we can talk about other things. Aucaman Talk 17:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Max 40 million Turks???!!!...Hahaha.By the way what right do you want anymore? You have your own political party, you speak your language everywhere(very loudly), you're the reason of the crime in Turkey...so what do you want anymore? Our country? Keep dreaming...
Iranian:
Do you deny what have armenians done about kurds?! I didnt suprised.Iran is co-operating with armenia then you're saying "we are working for all islam world".How honest!
Don't you know that Turkey admited hundreds thousands of kurds from iraq in Turgut Özal's(Turkey's kurdish origin ex-president who was a bad president for Turkey) era.They caused a chaos.We lost 300 billion dollars(Very big money for 80's) during the gulf war.Kurds got spoiled by his rule... Inanna 22:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe in this discussion...I'm a Turk who lived between Kurds for years,who has been bestfriends with two Kurdish guys for 15 years now.I'm living in Belgium but was born in Istanbul,we came here 16 years ago and have been living in the same street where Turks and Kurds live together.I remember the time when PKK was terrorising the eastern side of Turkey,they killed thousands and they killed and dragged away their own people too and everybody knows that,the ones in denial not of course.I remember our mothers were crying while watching TV,my mother and my friends' mothers..who are Kurds indeed,were crying for their people(Kurds and Turks both) who suffered this stupid war,crying for their country(Turkey).I just can't understand how blind you guys are.Can't you see that this all is a power game?!That Turks and Kurds have been living together for countless years!The terror that has been going on was a big sickness because a guy wanted to feel so powerfull.Mr.Ocalan indeed,similar to what Bush is doing to the countries he's secretly terrorising and what Bin Ladin tries.The times I've been to Turkey,evey summer, sometimes I stayed with Kurds,I ate their food and never ever sensed animosity.My grandparents are living in a district called Sisli in Istanbul with Armenians and Jews,eating their food,shopping in their shops,building their friendships with them for years.This is how real people do in their lives in Turkey,they don't fight.Kurds have the right to speak their languages as well as Jews and Armenians do.We all have been living in the same country for ages.I never doubt their kindness and thoughts for the Turkish Republic,because I know they call themselves Turks as well as they call themselves as what their original origin is.'Cos they are also Turks indeed,since thay are living in the same country for years.Turkey is a big coloured mosaic of languages and races.It will always stay as one,as "Turkiye Cumhuriyeti",with it's Turkish,Armenian,Jew and Kurdish public.There is NO animosity in the villages,NO animosity in the cities.Only among politicians and people seeking for power to conquer the world or a territory both Kurds and Turks.Real people just cry for that sickness... Friendly regards to all of you, M.Citak---- Set 03:11, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
If the kurds (in general,not individualy) feel this way about the turks,as the previous user stated,and if they all think that Ocalan was a terrorist,i wonder if all those people who did these things are pro-turkish [23](it's a timeline and catalogue of the kurdish anger-justifiable according to my POV-the day after Ocalan's arrest)-- Hectorian 03:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Friend, Either you have no knowledge in English or you are just trying to go againts everyone here.If you just scroll up you will see that I indeed SAID that the real terrorists and sick minded people are politicians,both Turks and Kurds.All I tried to say was that the real folks don't get into fights like this. Because they have the knowledge of how to live together in the same community with different races.As you made your point of what you think PKK is,I will show you what its president and founder is...just as I said it was,a terrorist,even knowledged by Iran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_%C3%96calan PS:Turks haven't been living with Kurds,but Kurds have been living with Turks(Ottomans if you wanna dig in to history)... And about those protests and whatever the second one is showing to me;there are people in Turkey and around the world mostly Turks of course protesting againts Kurds,as well as Kurds protesting againts Turks.They are not living in Turkey and are easily provocated by the media.This is what one calls provocated acts.Turks that get provocated by their sick-minded politicians and parties and Kurds that get provocated by theirs. Again,This is still getting miles away off the topic here.I just tried to shake you guys up,so you would stop this stupid fight and focus on the article so that it will finaly be unlocked. Please stop this "Kurds Turks Enemies,my dad can beat your dad up" childishness and focus on the damn page,gosh...-- Set 14:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
You guys need to solve this. So far, this has gotten WAY off topic, and your rantings are getting way off. Solve this dispute, for the sake of God.This all began with a sentence phrasing, and now it's about politics and Turkey. How did this go from whether or not Kurds are Iranian to this? I don't know.
And why is it that it is this page and other Kurdish things that have these problems? This page is actually clean compared to some other mess that floats around in Wikipedia and hasn't been touched. Please, solve this thing and get on with your lives. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MercZ ( talk • contribs) 08:17, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't Aramic be included in the section where it discusses the language of the Kurds? Most of the Jewish Kurds and Christian Kurds speak Aramic as a first language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.9.155 ( talk • contribs)
I see no constructive discussion here in recent days. Perhaps a period of editing is what is required. I'm removing the protection and will watch closely. Be aware that I don't tolerate nonsense. -- Tony Sidaway 19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
This article refers to it as being banned in much of middle east.. can we have a reference to this? Thanks -- Kash 00:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
It must be talked out until the problems are settled it is not neutral. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.196.139.250 ( talk • contribs) 16:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Due to recent edit warring, I've protected this article for just a few hours so that everybody can cool off. Please use this talk page to discuss any changes so that we can reach agreement on what to do with the article. -- Tony Sidaway 17:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
You are ceating a Kurdish History.Do you believe all of these?You are very comic.Just ignorant people believe these lies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.100.72.41 ( talk • contribs) 17:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The history section of this article should be edited. I did it once but it was changed back to the original content. The way it is written people will assume that those early cultures and civilizations were Kurdish. The history of the area where the Kurds now live is NOT kurdish history. To claim otherwise would be the same as saying that the ancient Egyptians were Arabs! Dariush4444 22:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
It is inconsistant and badly structured. It deviates from established facts which is a shame for presenting the rich heritage of Kurds to the wider world. It should be edited. 69.196.139.250 01:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
How can one lone article of a sporadic genetic research undo all the cultural and historic ties of kurds as this essential element of Iranian history Iran as concept is built by all the varied ethnic groups who at different periods in history have taken up the leadership of this entity
so just Corduene ... who were the Medes & sassanids then or even safavids ..
saying that modern kurds are commonly identified with the ancient Kingdom of Corduene inhabited by the Carduchi is false or a half truth as kurds (or if you are happy say the people inhabiting the mountains where kurdish is mostly spoken)are also identified with many past great Iranian kingdoms
How can it be verified in Wiki sense of the word that so and so kingdom was genetically more similar to the current population of that area
If Hamedan lets say at one point has had a jewish majority would you take it out of Iranian history and add it the History of Israel what if turkish kurdistan would have had a majority armenian population for most of its history...if what ties all is the language then its of the Iranian family and so you are my brother..if its the customs all I can say is ...a happy norouz or newroz to all kurdish brothers who are happy enough not to be touched by modern crusaders and propogandists ...-- Loosekarma 03:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Claiming that the Kurds are an Iranian people is a big claim. I cannot find any reasonably neutral source calling them that. What sources do you have – maybe we can attribute the claim to those sources. -- Latinus 14:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
We've had A LOT of discussions about this. Kurds are a part of Iranian peoples due to linguistic reasons. Some sources say they're ethnically close to Iranians (people of the country of Iran). The two should not be mixed. Iranian peoples as a whole don't constitute an ethnic group anyway, so if you want to say Kurds are ethnically close to Iranians the link should go to demographics of Iran. Aucaman Talk 15:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The Kurdish People is a Irania People, The Kurdish language is a Irania language. -- Muhamed 19:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Yet another source [26], they are as Iranian as Persians are Iranian. This is an academic, published journal. We have enough sources to back this up now -- Kash 22:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I put the tag because we cannot everyday start and continue this debate, I'm waiting for a mediation. I do not know since when the most Authorative Encyclopedias of the world Britannica, encyclopedia of Columbia and Encarta are ignored and replaced with unknown random links. D iyako Talk + 23:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
The Kurds, who constitute approximately 7% of Iran's overall population, have resisted the Iranian government's efforts, both before and after the revolution of 1979, to assimilate them into the mainstream of national life and, along with their fellow Kurds in adjacent regions of Iraq and Turkey, have sought either regional autonomy or the outright establishment of an independent Kurdish state in the region. [27]
This seems very POV to me, and also the link was incorrect. Removed it for now -- Kash 23:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
The Kurds are of Iranian stock...Kurds and Persians share common ancestors, which include the Medes...Kurdish and Persian are sister languages. Unlike Turkey, where Kurds are not Turks, and unlike Iraq, where Kurds are not Arabs, in Iran, Kurds are ethnic brethren of the dominant ethnic group, the Persians. In Iran, the problem is not ethnic or cultural, the problem is of a religious nature. Kurds in Iran are predominantly Sunni...so they are Sunnis living in a Shi'ite state. But let us be fair...how did the Sunni Saddam Hussein and his Sunni Ba'ath government treat Kurds? How does Sunni Turkey treat its Kurds? Shi'ite Iran has treated Kurds better than both, because Iranians see Kurds as fellow Iranians, which they are...as for those Kurdish separatists who think they can carve an independant Kurdistan out of western Iran, they can keep on dreaming...not only will Iranians not accept it, Turkey will never allow it, just as Turkey did not allow that to happen in northern Iraq.