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![]() | On 15 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Kurdish languages to Kurdish language. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I see some discussions about early kurdish texts but i never see the earlist text itself and date of it. Was is it kurmanji? I couldn't find a date for proto kurdish in academical papers in that matter. It is also missing in wiki page "List of languages by first written accounts". Can someone fill this gap without any nationalist non-sense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.251.63.42 ( talk) 10:05, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
I found info in cambridge history of kurds page 613. It says first proper kurdish text is 4 short lines in christian missionary prayer.ISBN 978-1-108-47335-4 I hope an editor would enter this important info in the article.i am copying from the book:
The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b –see Asatrian, 2009: 15). Th
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.38.157.239 ( talk) 18:54, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
History tab
History tab begins with highly controversal sources. Stating first attested kurdish texts is from 9 to 13th centuries. First attested kurdish text is from 14th century. It is four short lines from a prayer. First attested text iand its date is very important for all languages. History section needs to start with this info and controversal topics should follow it as an additional info if wont be removed at all. Please also refer to talk page.
p613: The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b –see Asatrian, 2009: 15). 109.38.157.239 ( talk) 19:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. This is clearly controversial. Should be resolved by talk page discussion. I'll note that the other source is also form a reputable publisher. Without context as to what each source is reporting, I'm not able to figure out whether this is a legitimate conflict between sources or if the two sources are reporting different things
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
02:23, 23 October 2021 (UTC){{
Edit extended-protected}}
template.
Lightoil (
talk)
12:18, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
Not done for now: please establish a
consensus for this alteration
before using the
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template. @
84.29.122.234, do not reopen this edit request as you did
here without providing proper citations and gaining consensus for the changes you wish to make.
Xan747 (
talk)
00:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Although a couple of you made edits leading up to the war regarding the deletion of a map before it became a war, I'm pinging all of you here just in case: Ayıntaplı, Serchia, Semsûrî, Paradise Chronicle, see WP:Edit warring. Largoplazo ( talk) 10:53, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Kurdish language map was updated recently and for some reason the colors were changed. We need to manually update the colors on the map legend on every page that contains the map 195.169.52.91 ( talk) 13:19, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hello, I suggest this edit: In the section of where this language is official please remove that is official only in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, when is official in ALL Iraq. 186.3.232.209 ( talk) 20:54, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
What does a dialect that has not been the mother tongue of any state throughout history, is not found in written sources, and has no speakers before the 20th century, on Wikipedia? Royroy23 ( talk) 13:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
The correct thing is to write the parts on this page in the Persian dialects section. Royroy23 ( talk) 13:53, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Adding the important fact that many kurdish languages are not mutually intelligible, which was missing from the lead.
In the lead, replace:
Kurdish constitutes a dialect continuum
With:
Kurdish languages constitutes a dialect continuum many of which are not
Mutually intelligible
(citing this source:
https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=JZ6JAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA27)
156.208.108.3 (
talk)
18:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
First paragraph in the history tab should be deleted: During his stay in Damascus, historian Ibn Wahshiyya came across two books on agriculture written in Kurdish, one on the culture of the vine and the palm tree, and the other on water and the means of finding it out in unknown ground. He translated both from Kurdish into Arabic in the early 9th century AD.
Instead we need to add: The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b)
Beginning of second paragraph: Among the earliest Kurdish religious texts is the Yazidi Black Book, the sacred book of Yazidi faith.
Should be changed as: Possible earliest Kurdish religious texts is the Yazidi Black Book whose authenticity is questioned and believed to be a fusion of authentic Yazidi traditions and beliefs with Western forgeries.
First paragraph is referring to a book "Ancient Alphabets and Hieroglyphic Characters Explained" by Ibn Wahshiyya. But it is falsely attributed to him as discussed in Later influence section in Ibn Wahshiyya. It is forgery or not a reliable source at best.
Yazidi Black book is also not a reliable source as discussed in the first paragraph of Yazidi Black Book.
I am simply trying to have consistency among referred wikipedia pages. We have already consensus on the content and sources on those pages. We also have a section in talk page on this topic. No objection is raised for nearly two years.
I am adding source for the first proper text in Kurdish below. It is in page 613.
84.29.122.234 ( talk) 09:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
References
84.29.122.234 ( talk) 09:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
In the map showing the kurdish language, by the colors it’s written the type of kurdish languages but not souther kurdish, its just written kurmanji as pink, and sorani as red, while southern kurdish is brown but it didn’t say that under the map 2001:8F8:1B27:415B:D180:CAA4:544C:BB4F ( talk) 09:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
Kurdish speaker are more than this couse many people are starting to learn the language plus some kurds now have rights to learn their language especialy northren kurdistan people just started to have more edaction about it couse back on the day kurdis was banned and also it was dangrous to many to speak it so please fix this Hogirkurdish15 ( talk) 00:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved Kurdish languages to Kurdish language. There is consensus to treat the Kurdish language the same way as other languages in a similar situation and use the singular. There is no consensus to move it to the basename "Kurdish" due to possible ambiguity with other articles mentioned at Kurdish. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 ( talk) 16:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
– The title of this article could be either "Kurdish Language," aligning with the naming convention of other Wikipedia articles discussing "macro" languages or languages forming a dialect continuum, such as "Norwegian Language" or "Chinese Language," which are in a similar situation to Kurdish. Alternatively, we may consider simplifying it to just "Kurdish," similar to the "Arabic" Wikipedia article, thereby sidestepping any contentious debates and maintaining a neutral stance. It seems unjustified for Kurdish to be the only article labeled with "Languages" when there is no consensus on whether it comprises multiple related languages or a single language with various dialects. Kurdian ( talk) 00:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus ( talk) 04:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 11:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Why are these sections empty? Most language articles have a short summary of their language's phonology, grammar and writing system, but for some reason in the Kurdish Languages article it's completely empty? Silveratractic ( talk) 21:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
You forget georgia sweden and thee maby more recognise it as a minority language Hogirkurdish15 ( talk) 19:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
This is not related to the language but, what is name of the font of Sorani letters? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kurdish_Language.svg
-Luke 70.162.148.16 ( talk) 18:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
add references:
Sheyholislami, Jaffer, Hassanpour, Amir, and Skutnabb-Kangas, Tove. 2012. The Kurdish Linguistic Landscape:
Vitality, Linguicide and Resistance. Special issue of International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 2917(2012). Jaffersh ( talk) 00:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
I’m not here to disturb the page or add any, I’m just curious as to why the Kurdish dialects are considered not intelligible? From my understanding and experience, I understand a Kurmanji, Hewrami, Laki and Zazaki way more than Persian, which to me personally sounds like gibberish and not close to Kurdish at all (This was my experience with Shirazi and Gilan Persian)
Other than my rant above, I just want to know why this is included because it is still debated whether Kurdish dialects are dialects or languages (most people who argue the latter usually have an anti-kurdish POV based on experience) Volkish Kurden ( talk) 23:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
kurdish is not a language group where do you even get this idea like we always say its kurdish language not languages yes we sometimes have misunderstand each other or never know what the other person talk about but that happen in all languages even in english arabic spanish and other languages this happen to british and americans when speaking english they never understand what the other says or scotts and english people never understand eachother Hogirkurdish15 ( talk) 08:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The claim that
Kurdish varieties constitutes a dialect continuum, many of which are not mutually intelligible
is a bit misleading since the two main dialects of Kurdish, Sorani and Kurmanji, are often considered to be mutually intelligible, or at least partially mutually intelligible
[1]
[2]
[3]
Still, the level of mutual intelligibility among Kurdish dialects is a matter of dispute, [4] so I think it's best to remain neutral here. Therefore, I would suggest making these changes or something similar.
− | Kurdish varieties | + | Kurdish varieties constitute a dialect continuum |
− | Kurdish varieties are divided into three or four groups, | + | Kurdish varieties are divided into three or four groups, with varying degrees of mutual intelligibility |
Akam Nawzad ( talk) 01:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
References
Would it be possible to use a colourblind-friendly map? 2A02:8108:48BF:E460:E97B:C826:A3D9:E433 ( talk) 11:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kurdish language article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 730 days
![]() |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the topics of Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | On 15 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Kurdish languages to Kurdish language. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I see some discussions about early kurdish texts but i never see the earlist text itself and date of it. Was is it kurmanji? I couldn't find a date for proto kurdish in academical papers in that matter. It is also missing in wiki page "List of languages by first written accounts". Can someone fill this gap without any nationalist non-sense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.251.63.42 ( talk) 10:05, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
I found info in cambridge history of kurds page 613. It says first proper kurdish text is 4 short lines in christian missionary prayer.ISBN 978-1-108-47335-4 I hope an editor would enter this important info in the article.i am copying from the book:
The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b –see Asatrian, 2009: 15). Th
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.38.157.239 ( talk) 18:54, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
History tab
History tab begins with highly controversal sources. Stating first attested kurdish texts is from 9 to 13th centuries. First attested kurdish text is from 14th century. It is four short lines from a prayer. First attested text iand its date is very important for all languages. History section needs to start with this info and controversal topics should follow it as an additional info if wont be removed at all. Please also refer to talk page.
p613: The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b –see Asatrian, 2009: 15). 109.38.157.239 ( talk) 19:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. This is clearly controversial. Should be resolved by talk page discussion. I'll note that the other source is also form a reputable publisher. Without context as to what each source is reporting, I'm not able to figure out whether this is a legitimate conflict between sources or if the two sources are reporting different things
RandomCanadian (
talk /
contribs)
02:23, 23 October 2021 (UTC){{
Edit extended-protected}}
template.
Lightoil (
talk)
12:18, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
Not done for now: please establish a
consensus for this alteration
before using the
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template. @
84.29.122.234, do not reopen this edit request as you did
here without providing proper citations and gaining consensus for the changes you wish to make.
Xan747 (
talk)
00:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Although a couple of you made edits leading up to the war regarding the deletion of a map before it became a war, I'm pinging all of you here just in case: Ayıntaplı, Serchia, Semsûrî, Paradise Chronicle, see WP:Edit warring. Largoplazo ( talk) 10:53, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Kurdish language map was updated recently and for some reason the colors were changed. We need to manually update the colors on the map legend on every page that contains the map 195.169.52.91 ( talk) 13:19, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hello, I suggest this edit: In the section of where this language is official please remove that is official only in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, when is official in ALL Iraq. 186.3.232.209 ( talk) 20:54, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
What does a dialect that has not been the mother tongue of any state throughout history, is not found in written sources, and has no speakers before the 20th century, on Wikipedia? Royroy23 ( talk) 13:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
The correct thing is to write the parts on this page in the Persian dialects section. Royroy23 ( talk) 13:53, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Adding the important fact that many kurdish languages are not mutually intelligible, which was missing from the lead.
In the lead, replace:
Kurdish constitutes a dialect continuum
With:
Kurdish languages constitutes a dialect continuum many of which are not
Mutually intelligible
(citing this source:
https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=JZ6JAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA27)
156.208.108.3 (
talk)
18:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Kurdish languages has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
First paragraph in the history tab should be deleted: During his stay in Damascus, historian Ibn Wahshiyya came across two books on agriculture written in Kurdish, one on the culture of the vine and the palm tree, and the other on water and the means of finding it out in unknown ground. He translated both from Kurdish into Arabic in the early 9th century AD.
Instead we need to add: The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b)
Beginning of second paragraph: Among the earliest Kurdish religious texts is the Yazidi Black Book, the sacred book of Yazidi faith.
Should be changed as: Possible earliest Kurdish religious texts is the Yazidi Black Book whose authenticity is questioned and believed to be a fusion of authentic Yazidi traditions and beliefs with Western forgeries.
First paragraph is referring to a book "Ancient Alphabets and Hieroglyphic Characters Explained" by Ibn Wahshiyya. But it is falsely attributed to him as discussed in Later influence section in Ibn Wahshiyya. It is forgery or not a reliable source at best.
Yazidi Black book is also not a reliable source as discussed in the first paragraph of Yazidi Black Book.
I am simply trying to have consistency among referred wikipedia pages. We have already consensus on the content and sources on those pages. We also have a section in talk page on this topic. No objection is raised for nearly two years.
I am adding source for the first proper text in Kurdish below. It is in page 613.
84.29.122.234 ( talk) 09:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
References
84.29.122.234 ( talk) 09:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
In the map showing the kurdish language, by the colors it’s written the type of kurdish languages but not souther kurdish, its just written kurmanji as pink, and sorani as red, while southern kurdish is brown but it didn’t say that under the map 2001:8F8:1B27:415B:D180:CAA4:544C:BB4F ( talk) 09:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
Kurdish speaker are more than this couse many people are starting to learn the language plus some kurds now have rights to learn their language especialy northren kurdistan people just started to have more edaction about it couse back on the day kurdis was banned and also it was dangrous to many to speak it so please fix this Hogirkurdish15 ( talk) 00:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved Kurdish languages to Kurdish language. There is consensus to treat the Kurdish language the same way as other languages in a similar situation and use the singular. There is no consensus to move it to the basename "Kurdish" due to possible ambiguity with other articles mentioned at Kurdish. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 ( talk) 16:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
– The title of this article could be either "Kurdish Language," aligning with the naming convention of other Wikipedia articles discussing "macro" languages or languages forming a dialect continuum, such as "Norwegian Language" or "Chinese Language," which are in a similar situation to Kurdish. Alternatively, we may consider simplifying it to just "Kurdish," similar to the "Arabic" Wikipedia article, thereby sidestepping any contentious debates and maintaining a neutral stance. It seems unjustified for Kurdish to be the only article labeled with "Languages" when there is no consensus on whether it comprises multiple related languages or a single language with various dialects. Kurdian ( talk) 00:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus ( talk) 04:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 11:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Why are these sections empty? Most language articles have a short summary of their language's phonology, grammar and writing system, but for some reason in the Kurdish Languages article it's completely empty? Silveratractic ( talk) 21:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
You forget georgia sweden and thee maby more recognise it as a minority language Hogirkurdish15 ( talk) 19:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
This is not related to the language but, what is name of the font of Sorani letters? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kurdish_Language.svg
-Luke 70.162.148.16 ( talk) 18:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
add references:
Sheyholislami, Jaffer, Hassanpour, Amir, and Skutnabb-Kangas, Tove. 2012. The Kurdish Linguistic Landscape:
Vitality, Linguicide and Resistance. Special issue of International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 2917(2012). Jaffersh ( talk) 00:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
I’m not here to disturb the page or add any, I’m just curious as to why the Kurdish dialects are considered not intelligible? From my understanding and experience, I understand a Kurmanji, Hewrami, Laki and Zazaki way more than Persian, which to me personally sounds like gibberish and not close to Kurdish at all (This was my experience with Shirazi and Gilan Persian)
Other than my rant above, I just want to know why this is included because it is still debated whether Kurdish dialects are dialects or languages (most people who argue the latter usually have an anti-kurdish POV based on experience) Volkish Kurden ( talk) 23:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
kurdish is not a language group where do you even get this idea like we always say its kurdish language not languages yes we sometimes have misunderstand each other or never know what the other person talk about but that happen in all languages even in english arabic spanish and other languages this happen to british and americans when speaking english they never understand what the other says or scotts and english people never understand eachother Hogirkurdish15 ( talk) 08:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The claim that
Kurdish varieties constitutes a dialect continuum, many of which are not mutually intelligible
is a bit misleading since the two main dialects of Kurdish, Sorani and Kurmanji, are often considered to be mutually intelligible, or at least partially mutually intelligible
[1]
[2]
[3]
Still, the level of mutual intelligibility among Kurdish dialects is a matter of dispute, [4] so I think it's best to remain neutral here. Therefore, I would suggest making these changes or something similar.
− | Kurdish varieties | + | Kurdish varieties constitute a dialect continuum |
− | Kurdish varieties are divided into three or four groups, | + | Kurdish varieties are divided into three or four groups, with varying degrees of mutual intelligibility |
Akam Nawzad ( talk) 01:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
References
Would it be possible to use a colourblind-friendly map? 2A02:8108:48BF:E460:E97B:C826:A3D9:E433 ( talk) 11:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)