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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on July 26, 2006 and July 26, 2007. |
I think that the role of Krum as the first Bulgarian legislator is too neglected. The legacy part should be enlarget or a subtitles called " internal policy" or somewhat should be made. A list of the laws should be published.It can also include the Avar legend.According to it after coquering the Avars Khan Krum asked some of the prisoners-of-law about the reasons for the fall of their state and their answers gave him the idea for creating laws,common for Bulgars and Slavs.Also Krum is the first to admisnistrate the Bulgarian state,dividing it into ten comitopuli. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitosha ( talk • contribs) 12:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Very good article. I just would like to point out a slight lack of coherence in the way the places are named. If it is being used Constantinople and not Istambul, shouldn't it be said Mesemvria instead of Nessebar? Since obviously Nessebar is less known than Istambul, maybe to avoid confussion it could be written like this: "Bulgarians attacked Mesemvria (now Nessebar)."
History lover.
What language did he speak? Was his language already Slavic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.135.62.100 ( talk) 04:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
What does this mean? "from after 796/ before 803 to 814" Someone who knows about this may want to edit! Isoxyl 18:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh oh, the strange dates has returned. Can anyone tell me what this means:"from after 796 before 803 to 814"? This needs an edit but I don't even know what this means and thus I cannot edit this. Thanks, Hu Gadarn 22:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I also found the article somewhat confusing. There is very little context or preface before we jump right into the action. Also, there isn't even a link to the Battle of Pliska. Odd. Hu Gadarn 14:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the "influence in literature" section contains a highly dubious information. It claims that Krum was the prototype for Shakespeare's Prospero (and some other characters of other authors) and points to a Bulgarian web page as a source. Being a Bulgarian myself I know all too well that local historiographs engage in embellishments (mostly minor, but still annoying). I researched on Google and failed to locate any source of information other than the mentioned web page and its derivatives. I doubt that Shakespeare would know that much of an ancient ruler of an obscure (at that time non-existing) state. I further don't believe that if true this fact would remain known only to the authors of the Bulgarian web page. In addition, it was never mentioned during any course in Bulgarian history or literature which I have had. Finally there is grave spelling mistake - the name of Gryphius is given as "Grifius" wich further undermines the authority of the source. I recommend deleting this info.
I tried to edit out this part but for some reason it remains unchanged. What's the matter? I am new to wikipedia I must be doing something wrong. Can you help me on it?
Can we have some maps of the territory of the Bulgarian Empire under Krum please?
I concur with te removal of the "Krum today" section (as per the query from an unregistered user). This material has no value here. Hu Gadarn 19:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I delete some of it. I'm sorry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.225.206.193 ( talk) 20:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 18:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
"Krum was described and potrayed by the Byzantine chronists as a light-hairеd man with light eyes, especially taking into consideration that there is no evidence for the existence of blond people on the Balkans till the arrival of the Slavs."
What kind of nonsense is this? No body knows whether people were blond or not specifically, so how can you say that all Balkan people are brunettes. In addition ancient Greek texts describe the Thracians as being typical Europeans, a mixture of brunettes, blonds, and redheads. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.10.82 ( talk) 03:36, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
This: "a light-hairеd man with light eyes, especially taking into consideration that there is no evidence for the existence of blond people on the Balkans till the arrival of the Slavs."
is a racist or a rather ethnic discriminatory remark, showing little knowledge and understanding of what migration and the shape of an ethnic group or a nation are. All Slavs are not blond, just like all other type of Caucasians are not brunettes. Also, this sounds like the Turkic theory of the origin of the Bulgars that is very dubious in in itself, not to mention the fact that Turks too were a good mixture of everything. I am about to remove this part in a few days unless someone has something reasonable to say about it. I find it insulting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.228.42.158 ( talk) 20:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Slavs are not particularly blond. They are originated from centre-eastern Europe, nearly the same areas as Bulgars. Scandinavians are know to be blond (some 95% to some extent). However, based on the DNA studies, the gene mutation leading to blonder skin tones and blue eyes did not happen in Scandinavia but likely closer to Black Sea. Migrations brought the gene to the Nordic countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.129.201.45 ( talk) 06:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I haven't seen a source stating that Krum used the title "emperor" (or some equivalent). The title that is typically used by Bulgarian and foreign historians is "khan", which is why I reverted a recent edit. See e.g. RJ Crampton's Concise History of Bulgaria or Encyclopedia Britannica Tropcho ( talk) 15:03, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
A quick search at Google Books turns up a number of sources referring to Khan Krum, for instance Fine and Oxford. Better for use here might be this passage, which includes a cursory explanation of the title. An English langage source would be preferable, and "promacedonia.org" screams POV, even if they are simply reprinting a text. Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 16:20, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/52-manasses-chronicle.jpg
Ot the top is cleraly written: "КРОУМА КНѪЗА" - Many Thanks to Spiri! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Христо Зарев Игнатов ( talk • contribs) 13:38, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
According to the article, both scholars mention the battle between Krum and Nikephorus' forces that their description bring us the question, "how shall local and Western sources be treated ?" --- Ktsquare (talk) 17:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
@ Христо Зарев Игнатов: You don't have consensus for the use of the term kynaz over the current version with khan. Unless you can convince the community of your point of view you're going to have to accept use of the term khan. Chris Troutman ( talk) 12:04, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
There appear to be several editors (or perhaps one or two plus IP variations) changing 'khan' to 'knyaz' on numerous pages relating to this era. Now they are adding a citation to protobulgarians.com in support (e.g, here). The site is in Bulgarian, so I cannot evaluate it, but the name alone suggests a nationalist POV. We have numerous solid and authoritative sources, including Fine, using the term 'khan' for leaders during that period. WP:RS states a preference for English-language sources on English-language WP, so the protobulgarians site is shaky to begin with. Overturning the usage of 'khan' in solid academic sources based on a non-English web site of dubious origin should require a convincing argument, so these changes should be viewed with skepticism. Unfortunately, the editors pushing this change do not appear to have the language skills necessary to address this issue properly. (I'm pinging some of the editors who have been involved in these edits to seek wider opinion: @ Cplakidas:, @ TodorBozhinov:, @ 88.203.200.74:, @ 46.16.193.70:.) Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 15:09, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I can no imagine, that is possible to see a clear text, in our case, this is the famous "KANASUBIGI" and to stay unable to read it... I can not believe, that Todor Bozhinov is a Bulgarian?! Simply to say: The mentioned rulers originate one from another. They had been assigned to several titles (archont, vasileus, emperors, king etc>), but NEVER "HANS", or "khans"! - No such traces existing... Opposite - in their own mother tongue, (Bulgarian Slavic), it is clear that they were called "Knyaz"! - That is clearly shown in the Manasseh chronicle, for example. On the Wiki-pages, of the many of ruler, you had mentioned, SOMEONE- not me, had posted illustration. They clearly show.. fore you before your very same eyes, what is written there: "kanasubigi". That is a wrongly marked (not in our that time's letter system), and it is written without spaces as it was all over the Europe, at that times. Many of the scholars, that YOU, ALL OF YOU (or someone else), not me had pointed as "sources", trying to read the expression, "kanasubigi" , are passing trough many and different complicated ways to 2 readings: "A great ruler" or "A ruler form God". - That is what THEY, THE SCHOLARS, say... The simple answer is BEFORE everyone eyes: "Kanas ut Boga" - it is same even now in Bulgarian language, and in the most of the Slavic tongues! - It is exactly same! - Knyaz ot Boga! - Ruller from the God. That is before all the eyes, and that is why, EVEN IF ONLY ME SAY IT, it should be accepted at least for a talk and as an alternative theory, by now! - This is strange, to ask me to prove that the water is wet! - Go out under the rain and have it! - open your eyes and see it! No one could be so blind, to reject a clearly seen thing! Now, what happened in the media - Wikipedia?! - This is NOT ONLY ONE MAN WORK! - I MEAN, IT IS NOT ONLY ME DOING ALL THIS EDITIONS! There are at least few people, that never new, who also make it, and I never asked them for it! - And really, there are few other editors which I asked to take part in this conversations, exactly as you do now. So, finally, let us clear for the moment only this point - with the titles. There is no break of any rule. Good night! -- Христо Зарев Игнатов ( talk) 21:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The anonymous users and some registered try to change khan to knyaz on Bulgarian Wikipedia, too. There we have blocked some of the addresses and have locked some of the articles. -- Lord Bumbury ( talk) 11:36, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
How reliable is Michael the Syrian? The article seems to regard Nikephoros I as a war criminal but Krum as a hero. The by no means squeamish Warren Treadgold doesn't mention any particular atrocities committed by either party. He does mention sacking on both sides and he does say that the garrison at Pliska was slaughtered, but that isn't really of note - Krum himself butchered people as he found necessary. There is no mention of calculated brutality. But it looks like this article, like so many others, has become the victim of nationalism. Sorte Slyngel ( talk) 21:54, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree with above. It fails to mention that when capturing Serdica he massagered the whole garrison of 6000 men to which he had given his word on safe passage (see the article on the siege of Serdica). There is clearly a nationalistic tone in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.129.201.45 ( talk) 06:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Has this cited source been accepted by anyone other than Turks? I don't know Turkish, but doesn't he say that names like Malamir and Presian are also Turkish? Belleten, Volume 52, Issue 203 5.53.249.34 ( talk) 11:36, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Krum article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on July 26, 2006 and July 26, 2007. |
I think that the role of Krum as the first Bulgarian legislator is too neglected. The legacy part should be enlarget or a subtitles called " internal policy" or somewhat should be made. A list of the laws should be published.It can also include the Avar legend.According to it after coquering the Avars Khan Krum asked some of the prisoners-of-law about the reasons for the fall of their state and their answers gave him the idea for creating laws,common for Bulgars and Slavs.Also Krum is the first to admisnistrate the Bulgarian state,dividing it into ten comitopuli. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitosha ( talk • contribs) 12:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Very good article. I just would like to point out a slight lack of coherence in the way the places are named. If it is being used Constantinople and not Istambul, shouldn't it be said Mesemvria instead of Nessebar? Since obviously Nessebar is less known than Istambul, maybe to avoid confussion it could be written like this: "Bulgarians attacked Mesemvria (now Nessebar)."
History lover.
What language did he speak? Was his language already Slavic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.135.62.100 ( talk) 04:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
What does this mean? "from after 796/ before 803 to 814" Someone who knows about this may want to edit! Isoxyl 18:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh oh, the strange dates has returned. Can anyone tell me what this means:"from after 796 before 803 to 814"? This needs an edit but I don't even know what this means and thus I cannot edit this. Thanks, Hu Gadarn 22:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I also found the article somewhat confusing. There is very little context or preface before we jump right into the action. Also, there isn't even a link to the Battle of Pliska. Odd. Hu Gadarn 14:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the "influence in literature" section contains a highly dubious information. It claims that Krum was the prototype for Shakespeare's Prospero (and some other characters of other authors) and points to a Bulgarian web page as a source. Being a Bulgarian myself I know all too well that local historiographs engage in embellishments (mostly minor, but still annoying). I researched on Google and failed to locate any source of information other than the mentioned web page and its derivatives. I doubt that Shakespeare would know that much of an ancient ruler of an obscure (at that time non-existing) state. I further don't believe that if true this fact would remain known only to the authors of the Bulgarian web page. In addition, it was never mentioned during any course in Bulgarian history or literature which I have had. Finally there is grave spelling mistake - the name of Gryphius is given as "Grifius" wich further undermines the authority of the source. I recommend deleting this info.
I tried to edit out this part but for some reason it remains unchanged. What's the matter? I am new to wikipedia I must be doing something wrong. Can you help me on it?
Can we have some maps of the territory of the Bulgarian Empire under Krum please?
I concur with te removal of the "Krum today" section (as per the query from an unregistered user). This material has no value here. Hu Gadarn 19:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I delete some of it. I'm sorry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.225.206.193 ( talk) 20:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 18:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
"Krum was described and potrayed by the Byzantine chronists as a light-hairеd man with light eyes, especially taking into consideration that there is no evidence for the existence of blond people on the Balkans till the arrival of the Slavs."
What kind of nonsense is this? No body knows whether people were blond or not specifically, so how can you say that all Balkan people are brunettes. In addition ancient Greek texts describe the Thracians as being typical Europeans, a mixture of brunettes, blonds, and redheads. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.10.82 ( talk) 03:36, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
This: "a light-hairеd man with light eyes, especially taking into consideration that there is no evidence for the existence of blond people on the Balkans till the arrival of the Slavs."
is a racist or a rather ethnic discriminatory remark, showing little knowledge and understanding of what migration and the shape of an ethnic group or a nation are. All Slavs are not blond, just like all other type of Caucasians are not brunettes. Also, this sounds like the Turkic theory of the origin of the Bulgars that is very dubious in in itself, not to mention the fact that Turks too were a good mixture of everything. I am about to remove this part in a few days unless someone has something reasonable to say about it. I find it insulting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.228.42.158 ( talk) 20:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Slavs are not particularly blond. They are originated from centre-eastern Europe, nearly the same areas as Bulgars. Scandinavians are know to be blond (some 95% to some extent). However, based on the DNA studies, the gene mutation leading to blonder skin tones and blue eyes did not happen in Scandinavia but likely closer to Black Sea. Migrations brought the gene to the Nordic countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.129.201.45 ( talk) 06:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I haven't seen a source stating that Krum used the title "emperor" (or some equivalent). The title that is typically used by Bulgarian and foreign historians is "khan", which is why I reverted a recent edit. See e.g. RJ Crampton's Concise History of Bulgaria or Encyclopedia Britannica Tropcho ( talk) 15:03, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
A quick search at Google Books turns up a number of sources referring to Khan Krum, for instance Fine and Oxford. Better for use here might be this passage, which includes a cursory explanation of the title. An English langage source would be preferable, and "promacedonia.org" screams POV, even if they are simply reprinting a text. Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 16:20, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/52-manasses-chronicle.jpg
Ot the top is cleraly written: "КРОУМА КНѪЗА" - Many Thanks to Spiri! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Христо Зарев Игнатов ( talk • contribs) 13:38, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
According to the article, both scholars mention the battle between Krum and Nikephorus' forces that their description bring us the question, "how shall local and Western sources be treated ?" --- Ktsquare (talk) 17:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
@ Христо Зарев Игнатов: You don't have consensus for the use of the term kynaz over the current version with khan. Unless you can convince the community of your point of view you're going to have to accept use of the term khan. Chris Troutman ( talk) 12:04, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
There appear to be several editors (or perhaps one or two plus IP variations) changing 'khan' to 'knyaz' on numerous pages relating to this era. Now they are adding a citation to protobulgarians.com in support (e.g, here). The site is in Bulgarian, so I cannot evaluate it, but the name alone suggests a nationalist POV. We have numerous solid and authoritative sources, including Fine, using the term 'khan' for leaders during that period. WP:RS states a preference for English-language sources on English-language WP, so the protobulgarians site is shaky to begin with. Overturning the usage of 'khan' in solid academic sources based on a non-English web site of dubious origin should require a convincing argument, so these changes should be viewed with skepticism. Unfortunately, the editors pushing this change do not appear to have the language skills necessary to address this issue properly. (I'm pinging some of the editors who have been involved in these edits to seek wider opinion: @ Cplakidas:, @ TodorBozhinov:, @ 88.203.200.74:, @ 46.16.193.70:.) Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 15:09, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I can no imagine, that is possible to see a clear text, in our case, this is the famous "KANASUBIGI" and to stay unable to read it... I can not believe, that Todor Bozhinov is a Bulgarian?! Simply to say: The mentioned rulers originate one from another. They had been assigned to several titles (archont, vasileus, emperors, king etc>), but NEVER "HANS", or "khans"! - No such traces existing... Opposite - in their own mother tongue, (Bulgarian Slavic), it is clear that they were called "Knyaz"! - That is clearly shown in the Manasseh chronicle, for example. On the Wiki-pages, of the many of ruler, you had mentioned, SOMEONE- not me, had posted illustration. They clearly show.. fore you before your very same eyes, what is written there: "kanasubigi". That is a wrongly marked (not in our that time's letter system), and it is written without spaces as it was all over the Europe, at that times. Many of the scholars, that YOU, ALL OF YOU (or someone else), not me had pointed as "sources", trying to read the expression, "kanasubigi" , are passing trough many and different complicated ways to 2 readings: "A great ruler" or "A ruler form God". - That is what THEY, THE SCHOLARS, say... The simple answer is BEFORE everyone eyes: "Kanas ut Boga" - it is same even now in Bulgarian language, and in the most of the Slavic tongues! - It is exactly same! - Knyaz ot Boga! - Ruller from the God. That is before all the eyes, and that is why, EVEN IF ONLY ME SAY IT, it should be accepted at least for a talk and as an alternative theory, by now! - This is strange, to ask me to prove that the water is wet! - Go out under the rain and have it! - open your eyes and see it! No one could be so blind, to reject a clearly seen thing! Now, what happened in the media - Wikipedia?! - This is NOT ONLY ONE MAN WORK! - I MEAN, IT IS NOT ONLY ME DOING ALL THIS EDITIONS! There are at least few people, that never new, who also make it, and I never asked them for it! - And really, there are few other editors which I asked to take part in this conversations, exactly as you do now. So, finally, let us clear for the moment only this point - with the titles. There is no break of any rule. Good night! -- Христо Зарев Игнатов ( talk) 21:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The anonymous users and some registered try to change khan to knyaz on Bulgarian Wikipedia, too. There we have blocked some of the addresses and have locked some of the articles. -- Lord Bumbury ( talk) 11:36, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
How reliable is Michael the Syrian? The article seems to regard Nikephoros I as a war criminal but Krum as a hero. The by no means squeamish Warren Treadgold doesn't mention any particular atrocities committed by either party. He does mention sacking on both sides and he does say that the garrison at Pliska was slaughtered, but that isn't really of note - Krum himself butchered people as he found necessary. There is no mention of calculated brutality. But it looks like this article, like so many others, has become the victim of nationalism. Sorte Slyngel ( talk) 21:54, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree with above. It fails to mention that when capturing Serdica he massagered the whole garrison of 6000 men to which he had given his word on safe passage (see the article on the siege of Serdica). There is clearly a nationalistic tone in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.129.201.45 ( talk) 06:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Has this cited source been accepted by anyone other than Turks? I don't know Turkish, but doesn't he say that names like Malamir and Presian are also Turkish? Belleten, Volume 52, Issue 203 5.53.249.34 ( talk) 11:36, 27 October 2022 (UTC)