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I am not one of the participants in this dispute and revert war, but I want to help you to find compromise instead of constant revert wars. Here is the proposal: why not discuss your changes one by one, and solve problems one by one. Here I will list the various disputes from the article and the users who participate in this edit war could discuss these problems one by one PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
My opinion is that since both, Albanian and Serbian language are official in Kosovo, both names should be written. I do not have opinion whether Albanian or Serbian name should be written first (other users should discuss about that here). PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm okay with the albanian names, as long as there are serbian ones also. The order doesn't matter.
Since Kosovo is officially part of Serbia, we need to use serbian official name for that teritory, and that is "Kosovo i Metohija". Since this is english language site, this name should be converted to english, and that is "Kosovo and Metohija".
I also do not have opinion which one of the two maps should be included, so, please post the arguments why one of them should be here instead of another. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo and Metohija should be represented inside the map of Serbia & Monte Negro. WHY??? ... Starting from the meaning of the word "Kososvo", meaning "Black bird" in Serbo-Croatian language, while in Albanian language it never had an understandable meaning. Kosovo is purely part of the Serbian historic heriditary, since centuries ago. We just need to bring back in time the Battle of Kosovo, where the Serbians fought the Ottoman Empire. The Serbian Orthodox Church headquoters were located in Peja till 1945. How everything started? How Kosovo became Albanian, and how did it lose its Serbian people? The Albanians that inhibit nowdays Kosovo, are highlanders, which during the Ottoman Empire conquest of the Ballkans stepped down from the Northern Albanian Alps to the field of Kosovo. They were Catholics, in their begining of invasion, but were forced to be converted to Muslims, so they did not have to pay taxes and at the same time did not have to participate in the Ottoman Empire armies. At the same time their conversion to Muslims was positively proclaimed by the Ottoman policies, since the Serbian population was and remained through centuries of Christian Orthodox religion. In what other way can be explained the islamic religion in countries such as Bosnia & Hercegovina, Albania and in the Serbian territory of Kosovo and Metohija, the fact that their populations are mostly made by Muslims, surrounded by Orthodox countries?! The second thing, that influenced the Albanian domination in Kosovo, is the fact that even today the birth rate of the Albanians in Kosovo is too high compared to the other inhabitants of Kosovo. This has happened for centuries, and ecxplains very well how the percentage of Serbians and Albanians is this one that results today. As an Albanian of Albania, i consider the independence of Kosovo as very dangerous for the future of Europe. If it happens that Kosovo and Metohija gets united with Albania, the balance in region is going to lose and at the same time, the highlanders of Kosovo will do the same to the inhabitats of Albania as what they did to the Serbians of Kosovo.
First of all, status of Kosovo and Metohija is defined. It is Serbia's province, under temporary UN administration. Its future status can be changed, but its current status is very clear. Since Kosovo and Metohija is officialy part of Serbia, and since this article belongs to category "Disputed teritories" (note TERITORIES), that TERITORY should be displayed as a part of state to which it belongs. Map on the right is so called political map (map which display state borders and nothing else), and it is perfect for part of article in which it resides. Map in Geography section is just as it should be. Since this part of article is talking about geography, map is larger, with geographical details. Political situation is not important here. So, if you ask me, both maps are perfect, and should not be changed.
The dispute here is how status of Kosovo is currently defined, so please discuss this question here. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
As i have sad in Problem 2., status of Kosovo and Metohija is defined. It is Serbia's province, under temporary UN administration. Its future status can be changed, but its current status is very clear. "It is not part of any country" is at least stupid, because it is impossible not to be part of any country. If it is not part of any country, then it is a country, and Kosovo and Metohija is not a country, so it must be a part of some country. And that is Serbia. Just see the phone dialing codes. Serbia's is +381. Guess what is for Kosovo and Metohija. Of course +381. So, there is a two possible situation - Serbia is part of Kosovo and Metohija, which is not, and Kosovo and Metohija is part of Serbia, which is.
Well, for the NPOV presentation, both the reference to the "separatist KLA by then considered a terrorist organization" and to the "Serbian Army attempted to purge the region of ethnic Albanians" should be removed from preface part by my opinion as clear "bad faith" edits. You discuss these four questions for now, and if you find compromise about them, we can move to other questions. I will not further participate in the discussion about these four questions, I just offered my proposals how to solve them. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, why do you call yourself Ilir. The only ones who can claim to be of Illyrian origin are Croats, and some Serbs. Unsigned edit by User:Gianni ita
OK, I see. So that doesn't have to do anything with the Illyrians. Gianni_ita
Dear Dardanv and others. First of all you don't have to be anonymous, and you don't have to do ridiculous threats. We can do a "wiki-war" if you want, I don't want it. You know I'm from a country who stoped participate in wars 1814!!! Still your are provocative and an extremist which I think is because there is alot of missunderstanding and ethnic phobia. I don't belong to any side and I don't sympathize with any more then the NPOV side. Everybody should be heard and not denied. So common.. I hope we can bury ALL nationalism and hatred with Milošević, even from your side (and please don't deny that it exist). Kosovo is lost to Serbia now (is what I belive) and then anybody can have their thoughts about it. But the most important thing is that all could work for a better future (without nationalism) in the Balkans. The world is not better until it is done. I think you can contribute most, in your own country. So why not prove you are better then the Serb nationalists and teach and support the NPOV side? If you want to continue with adding Albanian extremism into other articels and reverting we can sadly continue. But I hope/wish/beg you not... many thanks Litany
This is my opinion on PANONIANs proposal to compromise: 1. I think it should just be Kosovo, since this is the English version of Wikipedia. Or maybe Kosovo and then Albanian and Serbian? 2. I think the map over Serbia and Montenegro as long as Kosovo is a part of it. 3. It is "a province of Serbia and Montenegro, currently under UN administration", which is the truth. 4. I agree that it should be removed.. if you ask me if KLA is a terror organisation I would say yes, and JNA was not much better... Litany
And to stress smth out to Litany, it is not a province of Serbia :), it is a territory under UN administration, as defined by UNMIK. Find one place in their official website [1] where they mention it being a province of Serbia, and then we can discuss further. Let us respect Kosovo institutions which were democratically elected, and edit the article accordingly. Ben uk 10:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
So, I suggest that you change in both versions things about which both sides agreed (To write only English name Kosovo in infobox, and to remove POV parts about Kosovo war from preface part), and then try to find compromise about another questions. PANONIAN (talk) 21:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't feed trolls'. Best response to inflammatory remarks is to ignore them. Your threats in other talk pages have been noticed too. Regards, Asterion 00:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
You cannot remove comments posted by other people on the talk pages (it is against the rules of Wikipedia). As for city naming, until the final status of Kosovo is solved, I cannot say in what language names should be written for the cities. According to 1244 resolution, Kosovo is autonomous territory within Serbia-Montenegro, and currently Serbia-Montenegro have only one official language - Serbian. There are two possible solutions fot the final status of Kosovo:
In both cases Albanian will be one of the official state languages, and in that case names of the Kosovo cities with Albanian majority should be written in Albanian, and names of the Kosovo cities with Serbian majority in Serbian. However, at the present moment, Albanian is only "regional language", and not "state language", and English usually use names from one of the state languages. But, since every naming solution is only temporar in this case (until the final solution for Kosovo), I will wait that solution to say my opinion how cities should be named. The worst thing of course is to have twin articles about these cities, one in Serbian and another in Albanian, like Rahovec- Orahovac, Kačanik- Kaçanik, Deqani- Dečani, etc. PANONIAN (talk) 20:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, there are so many Albanians in Italy and in some parts of Switzerland that you are going to ask for the independence of these areas also very soon. There is nothing except for the high number of Albanians in Kosovo (I repeat again, after the WWII there were as many Serbs as Albanians in Kosovo, but that situation changed drastically, because of the reasons that have been mentioned before), that gives you right to claim this region. I know you know that.
About the resolution 1244. You were right Ilir, it doesn't mention Serbia and Montenegro anywhere, but it does mention Yugoslavia, which is the same thing.
Gianni ita 15:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Here Ilir, http://www.tenc.net/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm Gianni ita 21:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
And, it's me again. No need to discuss any more about the resolution 1244. On the NATO's website there is a whole resolution with all the small changes made by NATO. It clearly says that KOSOVO IS PART OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA (SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO), CURRENTLY ADMINISTERED BY THE UN INTERNATIONAL FORCES.
http://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm
Gianni ita 15:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Both Serbs and Albanians from Kosovo had their trucks loaded with their opponents, as you describe it. Both sides are guilty. Serbs killed more than Albanians did, but Albanians drove away a massive amount of Serbs (but as i said earlier, croats and bosnian muslims killed 10 times more serbs in the wwii, than serbs killed croats and bosnian muslims this last war, but that doesn't make any of the sides more or less guilty, they should both be ashamed and should pay a price for these crimes). so why would kosovo be independent, i'm asking you again?
And one more thing, Albanians were always privileged under Tito's regime. I have a friend who is Gorani from Dragas (southern Kosovo) and whose family escaped from Kosovo a long time ago, because of the repression by the albanian kosovars, and there are many other families like his, it's not the living standard that made them move to Belgrade.
Gianni ita 18:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
RESPONSE TO ILIR: OK, I read the web site that you recommended me. The only thing is that only albanian kosovars have a word there. I can give you some ultra nationalist Serbian sites and you'll see the completely different picture, but neither of these are true, the sooner you realize that, the better it will be for your own education. The books that you read in school, they were written by some Albanian Kosovar who was a part of the infamous UCK (KLA). You, the people of Kosovo (especially of albanian origin), ought to learn more from Western European books.
You have to admit, like I admited, that both Serbian army and albanian kosovar army bear the same responsibility. Or at least, that both commited disastrous crimes. A lot of people who have were responsible will never be put on a trial, and among them were your leader, who should have died like Milosevic, Ibrahim Rugova, and Hasim Taci, who is one of the negotiators for the albanian kosovars (UNBELIEVABLE!!)(He is wanted by both serbian and macedonian police but he will never be convicted, unfortunately)
Who mentioned kosovo's academy of science and arts? As far as I know, these people don't declare wars. And they certainly don't make plans about how to finance and support separatist organizations. They have a lot of better things to do.
Let's go back to Tito now. Read a little bit more about him on any page you want, and you'll see his policies about Kosovo. Yes, Albanians were privileged under his regime. More...Kosovo was never a republic, just an autonomous province of Serbia (you impress me with how much you know).
And after every time you say that there are 90% of Albanians in Kosovo now, I will repeat after you, after the WWII there was the same number of serbs and albanians. But, because of the repression by the albanian kosovars, a lot of Serbs, Roma, and Gorani's left this region. And you can check that here . http://www.tenc.net/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm
And about Kosovo being poor... Why do you complain that serbia took all the minerals from Kosovo when Kosovo was autonomous province. Do I complain about what Albania is doing with it's mines.
Gianni ita 21:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
"Why do you complain that serbia took all the minerals from Kosovo when Kosovo was autonomous province. Do I complain about what Albania is doing with it's mines." You sir are a moron. Read that a few times and you will see that your logic is that of a simian. And please stop posting some hacks writings as facts. Firstly, KLA has not committed even a fraction of atrocities the serbs did in Kosova.Everyone who has a brain knows that.
IN RESPONSE TO THIS UNSIGNED OFFENSE. First, i don't want to feed trolls. Autonomous doesn't mean independent. Serbia took a lot and gave a lot more to it's autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija. Wheat from another autonomous province, Vojvodina feeds all the Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo gives minerals.... Gianni ita 19:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should agree that the status talks held in Vienna now are between the delegations of two democratically elected governments, that of Serbia and Kosova. user: Asterion is reverting that part continuously. Serbian govt is not talking to Albanian "people" randomly selected in the streets of Kosovo, but those are ministers, heads or members of political parties of Kosovo. Opinion (for now, Asterions not) needed. And please, if you are not from Kosovo, and base your arguments on your life experience IN KOSOVO, then try to prove why you think what you´re saying is so, as it is not fair anyone from Andalusia or Chile to come and drop opinions here. This is a sensitive issue, and I ask for more understanding from non-Kosovo citizens. Thank you, Ilir pz 15:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
It is nice that progress was made regarding preface part and infobox. Now please, Ilir pz and Gianni ita, you should not discuss here whether Kosovo should be independent or not, but concrete disputes about article. So, please tell me what are the other disputed parts of the article, since I see that nobody reverting it now. As for the names of the articles about Kosovo cities, I just said my opinion how they should be named at the present moment, but I really do not care whether names of these articles would be in Serbian or Albanian. So, Ilir pz, it is not me with whom you should to argue about that. PANONIAN (talk) 03:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Panonian, I didn't even notice the new version of the article because of constant arguing with Ilir.
This article is a lot better than the previous one. Whoever wrote it did a good job to represent both Serbian and Albanian Kosovar side.
The only two things that I disapprove of are: 1. In 1912 during the Balkan Wars, Kosovo and Albania were conquered by Serbia while eastern part of Kosovo was captured by Montenegro. Serbia aimed at ethnically cleansing Kosovo of its Albanian population.... Following this document, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place in the next decades, ending up with the Milosevic era.
The expulsion did happen in the 1912, but it didn't continue until 1999. Those were two waves, not a continous one. In the meawhile there were also waves of expulsion of Serbian population, as you mentioned. Gianni ita 19:08, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Now, you must be joking. Which Serbian leader in Kosovo. Since the end of the WWII 90% of the political leaders in Kosovo were kosovar albanians (presidends, prime ministers...). In the 20th century Serbs tried to erradicate Albanians just before the WWI and while Milosevic was in power, between these to waves, especially after the WWII albanian kosovars started something like a cold war against Serbs in Kosovo. Gianni ita 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about brainwashing. I'd rather say that the technique of Joseph Goebbels was used in Albania and within kosovar albanian media. Gianni ita 19:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
2.After the Dayton Agreement and numerous atrocities committed by Serb security forces inside Kosovo, the disillusioned Albanians organized into the Kosovo Liberation Army and started a guerrilla war for liberation. It's not a war for liberation when you organize a terroristic separatistic group and kill Serbs, Gorani's, Jews, Roma's, or expell them. http://www.tenc.net/interviews/keys.htm
Frenki was never in Kosovo. KLA is financed by the albanian officials (mafia) who get their money from drug and people trafficking. (I tried to be neutral so far but now I just can't stand any more arguing with someone who doesn't even try to be neutral. I tried to explain that both sides are guilty and I wanted to reach a compromise with you and\or Ilir, but that just was not possible) http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/01/heroin.html
Gianni ita 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I repeat again Frenki was not in Kosovo. His units were in Bujanovac, Presevo and Medvedja, which don't belong to kosovo. I'm not interested in family stories as they are very efficient tool to cause simpathy, and the objectivity of these events is very hard to confirm. If you did loose a friend like that, I am sorry, many Serbs did too. Gianni ita 19:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
One thing that is important to mention is that according to OSCE numbers and Kosovar Albanian sources on population size and distribution, an estimated 45.7 percent of the Albanian population and 59.5 percent of the Serb population had fled Kosovo during the bombings (i.e. from 23 March to 9 June 1999).2 , and after this day who knows how many more others fled http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/nato.htm
It is also important to mention the number of Albanians that returned to Kosovo, and the ones that decided to move from Albania after the 1999. http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/publ/opendoc.htm?tbl=RSDLEGAL&id=3ae6b33b14&page=publ while Serbs can't return.
Otherwise, history part and everything else is just perfect, it's not pro serbian nor pro albanian.
Gianni ita 08:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I just noticed another small irregularity. The Kosovo government has been widely praised for paying for the rebuilding of Serb houses in the aftermath of the 2004 riots. This has been marked as the first case of reparations in the history of the Balkans.
It's not the first case of reparations. Serbs financed all the expenses of rebuilding Vukovar, Croats financed all the expenses of rebuilding some parts of Mostar that they ruined... And I'm not sure that Kosovo Govt. is actually helping Serbian minority, if KFOR wasn't there, not even one Serbian monastery will still be there, and you will hardly find any serb there. It is still KFOR that maintains peace, not the Kosovar Albanian Govt.
Gianni ita 08:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Ben uk, or Ilir, (I don't know who am I talking to because you might be one of Ilir's sockpuppets)if you read carefully what it says in the article you will understand what I am refering to. To help you, it said that albanian kosovar govt. helped rebuild some of the ruined serbian houses, and that this was the first time in the Balkan peninsula that this kind of a thing happened. That's why I mentioned cases where Serbian, and Croatian governments did those things before. Gianni ita 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a lot in common with Asterion, although I see that we have the same aim in this discussion page, and that is to leave Kosovo to Serbia. I don't know why these insults? You do know that it was said few days ago in the beginning of this discussion page that you were suspected of being Ilir's sockpuppet? Gianni ita 19:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
This discussion page is way to long, how about moving it to an archive? suggestions appreciated! Ben uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Move it to an archive. Litany
I hope you can forgive me. I made some changes on this article but I'll explain the adding so there will be no more missunderstanding. 1: "Following this document, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place in the next decades, ending up with the Milosevic era." this is true, but no expulsion was made between 1941 and 1990?/1996?... changed to "During the next decades, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place." 2: added "It is also estimated that 400.000 Serbs were clensed from the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Ottoman war in 1897. (see Demographic history of Kosovo)". Why? It's the truth. 3: ..eastern part of Kosovo "(Metohija to Orthodox)"... this is essentially right. In all my books (and no crap about it's chetnik books or whatever) it says "Metohija was given to Montenegro instead of Shkodra".
so please.. we should all cooperate. I listen to you and I expect the same from you. We should discuss and not argue. Have a nice weekend everyone/ Litany
1. I added Serbian theory that they are the descendants of Illyrians, although I think that it is very unlikely. 2. I added that Albanians voted on the 12. of january 1992. for the independence of one part of Macedonia 3. I added that during the protests, not Kosovar, but kosovar albanian students were asking for the independence of kosovo. 4. I deleted the part which mentioned continous expelling of Albanians since 1912. that was a big lie. 5. I changed the description of the KLA the way it should be described, and I added that Serbian forces killed way more innocent people than the KLA.
Tell me what you think of the changes!
Gianni ita
20:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Above all, DISCUSS SOMETHING FIRST, and then if majority of us agrees (just like majority will decide about the status of Kosovo, as Contact Group last meeting confirmed [5], I will quote for you "Ministers look to Belgrade to bear in mind that the settlement needs, inter alia, to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo. "). Only then can you wish us to have a nice weekend. Ben uk 21:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Response to Ben uk. 1. If you represent the some nationalist ideas of Albanian people, why wouldn't there be netionalist ideas of Serbian people too, although I don't agree with them. 2. Source to back that claim can be found here This is a site which highly criticizes Serbia becacuse of its action in Kosovo, but you can find under 12. January 1992. what had happened http://www.radicalparty.org/milosevic/processo_2.htm http://mondediplo.com/1999/01/13maced i repeat again this happened on 12.1. 1992. why don't you think this happened. 3. We agree 4. for the tenth time http://www.tenc.net/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm read this. Serbs were the victims between the two waves of albanian expelling. 5. Just type KLA DRUGS on google and see what you get. KLA is just like al qaeda, just like scorpions in Serbia.
Gianni ita 21:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, don't make me laugh. You can't get serbian sites when you type KLA DRUGS on google. Click on the second site that you get, it's from washington times. In case you somehow didn't find it here it is www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/KLA-drugs.html or you have from the daily oklahoman May 28. 1999. this excerpt In 1998 the State Department listed the KLA as an international terrorist organization that supported itself with drug profits and through loans from known terrorists like bin Laden. And the site that i gave you to prove that albanians voted for the independence of one part of macedonia is http://www.radicalparty.org/milosevic/processo_2.htm this site is criticizing both milosevic and all his colleagues, while the other site is a bit more neutral http://mondediplo.com/1999/01/13maced . WHY WOULD YOU NOT ACCEPT THESE FACTS? IT'S NOT OFFENDING ANYONE, IT'S JUST STATED THAT ALBANIANS VOTED FOR THE INDEPENDENCY OF ONE PART OF MACEDONIA? about question one, someone saying that albanians are illyrians and someone saying that serbs are illyrians are albanian and serbian nationalist, because we already have albanian extreme nationalist side presented why wouldn't we have serbian also just to get the balance. Gianni ita 15:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Ben UK, i admit, the geocities is not credible, but you have the same article, and it says the same date (and both are from Washington Times) on this site http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=1048 Why don't you want to coment other sites, why aren't you accepting the fact that albanians from macedonia voted for the independence of one part of macedonia? Gianni ita 19:26, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo is just a part of the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija. The article represents Kosovo as Kosovo and Metohija, and that's wrong. Thats like saying Serbia is the same as Serbia and Montenegro, there's no difference... You can't do that. Just because it may be a little hard for Westerners to pronounce Metohija and most people haven't heard of that word in their lives, doesn't mean that the article title shouldn't contain the word. If Kosovo becomes independent and declares that it is called only Kosovo, and not Kosovo and Metohija, then make the article title "Kosovo". -- Serbiana ₪ 07:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo and Metohija is still a part of Serbia. This is not future Wikipedia, you can't write that Croatia is a part of the EU, even if thats gonna happen soon. If and when Kosovo and Metohija becomes independent, THEN change it to just Kosovo.
And by the way, if Kosovo becomes independent, it won't be for too long. Serbs have lived under the Turks for 500 years and liberated their land, one day Kosovo will be liberated from the Albanians as well, and it will again be a part of Serbia, because it is Serbian holy land. -- Serbiana ₪ 01:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
He he, nice comments. My question is, how come you hate Serbia so much, even though your parents are FROM Serbia? I'm originally from Vojvodina, but since it's a part of Serbia (just like Kosovo and Metohija) I say I'm from Serbia (so should your parents). Your comment just confirms the plan of ethic Albanians to form a Greater Albania in Kosovo and Metohija, Western Macedonia, parts of Greece and Montenegro. Kosovo still is a heart of Serbia, and it will always be the heart of Serbia, because the Albanians may gain their independence, but one day Kosovo will be liberated, and there are a lot of people who think like me, so, Albanians, don't feel too safe... -- Serbiana ₪ 19:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I was talking to Ben. Don't feel too embarrassed.-- Serbiana ₪ 19:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
As long as you're not embarrassed... -- Serbiana ₪ 23:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, this discussion has been entertaining, but honestly it's pretty sad to witness BOTH Serbian and Albanian nationalism on a Wikipedia discussion page. If Albanians and Serbs want to be Europeans and be granted their rightful place within the European Union, then you must learn the lesson the rest of us Europeans already learnt after so many wars: nationalism IS stupid, and so is squabbling about who's the real owner of Kosovo. If the majority of the people in Kosovo opts for it to be independent, then it shall be independent no matter the Serbian attempts to push those rather pathetic arguments, scavenged from the roots of history to justify its possesion over the territory. As for the Albanians, that doesn't mean that you can despise the Serbs. There are still many Serbs living in Kosovo and when Kosovo attains independence their rights must be protected and the ethnic hatred extinguished. We've had too much hatred in Europe already and there's no place for it in the European Union. Neither in Wikipedia.
Asterion/Gianni/Litany, whoever from you are reverting changes constantly, if you think anyone who doesn't share your opinion on Kosovo is a sockpuppet, then you've 2 million such in Kosova itself, and many more outside Kosovo. You are vandalising yourself, big time, by reverting changes, and instead try to accuse someone of sockpuppeting. You even went that far as you insulted by calling "cockpuppeting" [7]. This only shows how frustrated you are with the fact that Kosovo will never be under Serbian rule again, and it will be an independent country sooner than you think. Good luck fighting 2 million "sockpuppets", lol. What was that "go back to LSE about", by the way? Ilir pz 13:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir pz\mark ma\ben uk, I called you sockpuppets because when I opened a profile of one of you, it clearly said that you were a suspected sockpuppet of someone. No need to discuss this any more, we called you sockpuppets, you called us, THE END. Gianni ita 16:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Please only discuss the content of the article here. As long as you only fight there is no meaning to edit something here before adding something to the article. Litany
I think the whole part should be shortened to just "mass expulsion of ethnic groups contiuned from both sides druing the time..." this is more NPOV then not letting anything be said about the events. right? Litany
I suggest the whole frase should be rewritten and include both albanians, serbs and other ethnic groups too. How does that sound? Litany
As no one was interested in discussing or didn't find sources to oppose my facts, i again changed following things, 1. serbian theory that they are illyrians, with which i disagree, but which is needed to balance albanian and serbian nationalism in history. 2. I deleted the sentence where it said that albanians were expelled from serbia since the WWI. the article itself opposes this view, as it is said later in the text that fascist albania during the wwii killed and expelled a lot of serbs. Also during the reign of Tito, no single albanian was expelled, more serbs left Kosovo then Albanians. 3. I added again that after Kosovar Albanians voted for the independency of Kosovo, in 12.1.1992. they also voted for the independency of one part of macedonia. I gave two sites as a proof in previous discussions twice, but there were no reactions.
That's it. I hope everyone is happy now, as the article is clearly unbiased after a long, long, time.
Gianni ita 19:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
2. There is a source for that information, of course I will rever that back. 3. your sites of supporting that claim are not neutral, of course I will revert that back. Advice: Discuss further, and then change when there is agreement here, Mr. Balancer, hehehe. benny 21:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
No, the article not only is not neutral, it is completely inaccurate from the beginning to the end. Some of the problems are:
So, I am adding warning header about disputed factual accuracy to the article, though it will be reverted without doubt.
And all the while, our revered editor ChrisO is dutifully watching over the article and probably dying of laughter. The lowest of low. Nikola 23:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
So nobody wants to discuss before changing the content, right? perfect! :)))))) Ilir pz 09:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Read above Ilir. Litany
You are completely right, some only revert changes. You wanna know who? You.
I was trying to make the article more NPOV, but obviously that's not good for you (why, I can't even imagine...). So, Ilir, or whatever your real name is, I know you're from Kosova, and you really really want Kosovo and Metohija to become an independent state, and I frankly don't care anymore (since I live in Canada, doesn't affect me), but we can't go on fighting, and I mean, in every aspect. We discussed the content, it's not like the changes came out of the blue.
The still official name (Kosovo and Metohija) should go first, BUT since the majority of Kosovars are Albanians, I guess it does no harm to put the Albanian name first. Also, Priština is the official name of the city, but OK, lets leave it at Prishtine, or whatever you call it. The history part of the article was very biased, and you will see I left a bunch of stuff on serbian ethnic cleansing, which some Serbs might want to remove, but I guess it is pointless to argue about something that'll most likely never be resolved, and thats why it's still there. Although, I did mention that the Serb gov't claimed that the KLA was a terrorist organization (didn't Milosevic say that? It's not biased, it's history). I'm not saying that it is (although I think that), but I wrote that the Serb gov't thinks it is, and I see no harm in that claim (I also left the text where it says that the purpose of the KLA is to achieve independence).
So, no matter what argues we had before, I realized that it's not going to help fighting about it in this case, so we might as well cooperate, and we might, just might, reach an agreement (just like those guys in Vienna). Cheers, -- Serbiana ₪ 01:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
My suggestion is to lock the page untill final status negotiations are over. -- Serbiana ₪ 02:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Still no response? What do I have to do to get attention from an administrator?? -- Serbiana ₪ 05:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is the proof that elections took place. That's the response to 3rd question i think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilirida under history
or http://www.projects.v2.nl/~arns/Texts/Chrono/MK.html under jan. 1992.
The response to first question, about the origin of Illyrians, I say again, I don's support the idea that Serbs are the descendants of Illyrians, but some people in Serbia actually believe in this, some think they are Celtic descendants, and i agree with Litany that all the nations in the Balkans are actually a mix of all the tribes that went through these places. So, I propose just to add a sentence like that, if you don't want to add that Serbs came from Illyrians or Celts or any other tribe. But only albanian idea about their ancestry doesn't make the article complete. Gianni ita 18:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
And Ben,
I did wait around 4 days for your response in discussion page. And you did visit the page twice since i started this serious discussion, but both you and Ilir were more occupied with the very important problem of who is calling who a sockpuppet.
Gianni ita 18:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
How can Serbs have an Illyrian origin, I mean they came in Balkans at the VII century. At that time the Illyrians where already there! Illyrians were not Slavic, and Serbs are. -- Mig11 11:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Please note that you do not own the article and you cannot simply revert everything. Note here that you violated the wikipedia policy by conducting a personal attack: rv to a previous version. Too much of organized vandalism by pro-serbian nationalists. Discussion needed. Please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks and don't attack users in the future.
Your edits will be reverted. This is a more NPOV version, so I'll put a tag. If anything needs to be discussed, please discuss it here, don't attempt to occupy articles. Best. -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The territory is a province of Serbia under United Nations administration, in the Resolution 1244 (1999), adopted by the United Nations Security Council on 10 June 1999 [13], the UN reafirmed its commitment to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (and its sucessor state, the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, after the country changed its name). Anyone with some knowledge on International Law is aware that Serbia does not have a separate foreign policy (now and when it was part of the FRY), this is left in the hands of the federal government. Therefore, the UN would not deal directly with Serbia or Montenegro, in the same way that it wouldn't do with Scotland separately if a problem were to arise in the UK. Regards, Asterion 06:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Greetings fellow Wikipedians!
I noticed that there was a little argument over the article. Well, I changed a few bits, I hope everyone likes what I did, I think I made it more neutral. That's all from me, you guys can finish the job, you all seem to have a lot of knowledge concerning the issue! Good luck, and I hope you resolve the dispute as soon as possible!!!
-- M.B. 03:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Please do not simply revert everything. You do not own the article. Change what you do not like. The current version is biased and you conducted a massive removal from the history section and elsewhere. Please edit what you think is wrong, not just revert everything carelessly.
Thank you! -- HolyRomanEmperor 14:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Wow, I felt so happy while I was reading HolyRomanEmperor's arguments. I agree 100%. Those just might be the best arguments yet. Thank you for posting that, it really made me happy. Also, I think ilirpz should be blocked, he has done nothing usefull on this Wikipedia except reverting every single edit done to this, and many other Kosovo-related articles. It may be true that Kosovo will one day be independent, but for now, it is considered vandalism to alter the truth in articles. -- Serbiana ₪ 22:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I suggest we leave the document as it is, and we go thoroughly through each part of it, a chapter by chapter and revise everything, its sources, relevancy and content. Otherwise I will have no choice but try to stop your pro-serbian reverts. Choose! I will not be lazy to do reverts, if you continue like this! I have no choice. My choices at least have a strong reason - read: I LIVE AND BREATHE IN THE COUNTRY WE ARE DISCUSSING. It is extremely important for my future. For you it is just another wikipedia topic. Think about it, and then waste your time reverting the content here. I guarantee you, your reverts will be very short-lived. I am trying to be constructive here, citing neutral sources, and giving you facts from first-hand experience as well, and you keep citing CPC sources to me, and just keep reverting. Hope you decide to call on your conscience finally. You will regret one day for having wasted your time, as KOSOVA will become independent. Even Draskovic (though I doubt the old wolf, who in the past had his paramilitary groups all over ex-yug, and his mouth was all anti-non-serbian) indicated that, though with many words aside, which I am very suspicious about. [14]. WITH LOVE from KOSOVA, Ilir pz 23:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
correction: Kosovo is not a country. -- Serbiana ₪ 00:11, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
1) "the final status of Kosovo is the subject of an ongoing dispute between government of Serbia and Kosovo's government" - someone forgot the Albanians and the UN ;) and.. Kosovo is still not a country I think, it's not declared or anything.. (is it?) 2) history is very big 3) Swiss franc isn't that wide-spread. -- www.doc 19:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
May I remind everyone that the purpose of the POV tag is to improve an article, not as some apparently try to use it to discredit an entry they are not happy with. A few editors have been trying to reach consensus on the issue but it seems as if any contribution contrary to Albanian nationalism is automatically reverted by some individual(s). This is not the way forward. Unless their behaviour changes or some disciplinary action is taken, we will be stalled at this stage forever. Regards, Asterion 20:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I wish most of the Serbian the participants in wiki think more like this intellectual [16], who is young, smart, and thinks rationally. Additionally another speaker, Mr.Matić clearly says it is "naive using the expression southern serbian province" (cite:"je naivno upotrebljavati izraz južna srpska pokrajina.") [17] He furthermore openly says (which many serbs tend to close their eyes to) that "Ja mislim da je odluka (o statusu Kosova) doneta. Mislim da se sada samo pregovara kako će se to saopštiti javnosti. Jasno je da će predstavnici Srbije odbiti konačno rešenje, izvesno je da će to rešenje biti nezavisnost, ali da će živeti sa tim." May this rationallity spread around wiki as well. There is hope. I want to believe most Serbs in Serbia (will) think this way soon, as it is healthy :))). Regards Ilir pz 11:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Something desperatley needs to be done about this, it is far too mixed, parts of it claim that other parts are incorrect, parts of the article are completely contradictory to others, for too many unproven theories are in it, the length is far too long, and it is plagued by various mostly Albanian, but also Serbian parts too. It also neglects to mention the gradual expulsion of the Serbs from the region during Titos rule.
We had a formal agreement with Boris to move in a more constructive way in the future. I have a several suggestions:
We are wasting too much time accusing each other with "facts" in admin sites, and putting vandalism and sockpuppet labels to each other. Clearly wasting too much time, I have tons of work to do, and I feel ashamed I wasted my time explaining to some some simple things. Let us respect each other's past and move forwards. Thank you, Ilir pz 09:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Please see the CIA World Factbook. If you notice the map of Serbia and Montenegro, it's the standard map with Kosovo and Metohija. Then, if you notice the Administrative divisions bit, you'll see the following:
Now, I've looked the Flags of All Countries, and there's no Kosovo there.
Additionally, according to the Countries of the World, Kosovo isn't a country, and if anyone sees the Serbia and Montenegro entry there, he/she will see the map of SCG with Kosovo. You will also notice the population of the state. It includes the population of Kosovo in it. -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Strangely, Kosovo isn't present not even on the Territories, colonies, & dependencies part.
Now, see the Countries site just to see more sources (repetition...)
I would also advise you to see the Maps of the Countries in the world. Naturally, Kosovo isn't a country, so it isn't present, but Serbia and Montenegro with it's international borders (with Kosovo-Metohija) is... -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Now, if you see the infoplease for Kosovo, you will see that it says Kosovo or Kosovo-Metohija. Note that the West prefers Bosnia-Herzegovina over Bosnia and Herzegovina. Didn't you say that Metohija isn't recognized? Well, neither is Kosovo, but you keep calling it a country. Oh, and Metohija is recognized. You will also see Kosovo (Serbia and Montenegro)
You want official? Well, how more official can it be than the saying that it is a province of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (a. k. a. Serbia and Montenegro).
From Kosovo:
Ilir, you keep repeating, and that is fine with me. You and I can think whatever we want, but our opinion simply doesn't matter. P. S. it's fine that you love your homeland, but what you think about the over-50% unemployement and the ever-growing criminal and corruption within the government? Including people like Agin Ceku in power? -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC) HolyRomanEmperor how manny user name youu have hier in en:Wikipedia?
You said: None believes those estimations, or census made by the previous occupatory regime in Kosova.
If none believe, why do they put it in every single Encyclopedia and the whole world recognizes it?
You also said So now you are 'discussing' and Litany is reverting? or you confused your accounts? If you need an CheckUser, go for it. Going around acusing users for being sockpuppets won't acomplish you anything.
You've obviously mistaken regarding my user name. Please see the Holy Roman Emperor article.
Ilir, I asked you to explain your disliking of the version, and you didn't respond.
Please, c'mon. You offered no arguements, no sourced claims and you now keep insulting. Why do you keep up with this? What have we done so that you hate Wikipedia so much?
I think someone should stop people from reverting content of the article, without any comment or explanation.............
...is the one who's been conducted all the reverting. He abandoned the discussion long ago, which made me sad, I thought that we could finally communicate, but he's not interested in talk, only war... -- HolyRomanEmperor 00:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
This articel is not your user page. You are deletin all my work. In Kosovo are not only serb. Ther are the "Crnagori" - montengrins too. They don t speek your launguage and they are not serb.-- Hipi Zhdripi 02:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Try not to be stupid. Don't generalize and blame Serbs for someone deleting your work which is, by the way, incorrect. For your information, Montenegrins speak Serbian Language. Even if they deny it, which would be apsurd, it is truth, but 66% of Montenegrins says that they speak Serbian language with ijekavian dialect. Second, Montenegrins are nation, but again Montenegrins are Serb. It is stupid to say that Montenegrins are not Serbs, or Serbs Montenegrins, so please read some literature and come to write articles on wikipedia. PS: Don't forget to learn English :))
-- Mephistophilus 12:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
He started this subject so I had to answer. Further conversation about this subject is unnecessary. :) -- Mephistophilus 10:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo is non status are. It is under the UN control till they determined the satatut.
http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/03albanian/A2000regs/RA2000_45.pdf
http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/04serbian/SC2000regs/RSC2000_45.pdf
PRIVREMENE INSTITUCIJE 1.1 Do odredjivawa bududjeg statusa Kosova, ova Uredba, u skladu Rezolucijom 1244 Saveta bezbednosti Ujediwenih nacija, uspostavqa privremene institucije za demokratsku i autonomnu samoupravu na op{tinskom nivou kao korak ka postepenom prenosu administrativnih nadle`nosti Privremene administrativne misije Ujediwenih nacija na Kosovu (UNMIK- koja }e nadgledati i pru`ati podr{ku konsolidaciji ovih institucija.
I think if you accept like the serbs in Kosovo accept this document that you are going to anderstuden that the onl law in Kosovo is the UNMIK-law til = Do odredjivawa the statut of Kosovo is determined.
As I said previously, Kosovo is a province of Serbia under United Nations administration, in the Resolution 1244 (1999), adopted by the United Nations Security Council on 10 June 1999 [18] [19], the UN reafirmed its commitment to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (and its sucessor state, the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, after the country changed its name). Anything else is just wishful thinking on your side.
Anyone with some knowledge on International Law is aware that Serbia does not have a separate foreign policy (now and when it was part of the FRY), this is left in the hands of the federal government. Therefore, the UN would not deal directly with Serbia or Montenegro, in the same way that it wouldn't do with Scotland separately if a problem were to arise in the UK. I understand that English is not your native language, as neither is mine, but could you at least use a spellchecker? It is very hard to follow your line of thoughts. Also, please stop using Albanian and Serbo-Croatian language in the talk pages, as you are probably aware that this is the English language wikipedia and your actions could be understood as disrespectful for wikipedians who do not master those languages. Regards, Asterion 13:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
You are maken a mistet. That wath you are saying is the Serbien Law but, not the International Law. Give me a clean document from the UN ( International Law) in wich is standin Kosovo is the Serbian provinc. I can give yua the docment from UN ( International Law) in wich is : Kosovo is a Provinc in Balkan.-- Hipi Zhdripi 18:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
The users account User:HolyRomanEmperor and User:Asterion are maken a community only too make the war edit. They dont let me to help in en:Wikipedia. They foil my planes for evry articel wich it has too do with Kosovo. They are not interested to do a work for Wikipedia, but to stopp and destroi my work in en:Wikipedia. They use the Three-revert rule police, I dont wont to make in hier another accont only to make war with this user.-- Hipi Zhdripi 02:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
i am not going into this discussion as, i would be biased to everything you write her, but to be a sort of source of info you really should gets your facts right. especially when all the things you are mentioning here is what people have died for the last 2000years.
I don't feed trolls. Best answer to inflamatory comments is to ignore them. Hipi Zhdripi and/or Ilir pz, you have shown no respect for other wikipedians and I politely ask you to retract what you are saying. Making false accusations will ultimately get you banned. Asterion 06:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Ilir pz, you are driving people off this page. You are a test for anyone's patience. Every single wikipedians who has tried to NPOVise this article has grown fatigued of your edit wars. You have no intention of improving the article, just "fixing it" to suit your personal views. You keep saying "Do not revert. Discuss", when in fact you are the only person not doing so. Remember Panonian's attempt to elaborate over possible NPOV points? You simply disregarded his efforts and threatened him with vandalise any Serbian article in revenge unless he gave up. That's the spirit I guess! Your behaviour is just not mature or adult-like at all. Once again, I invite you to list the points you find non-factual from the article instead continuing your pointless edit war. If not, I shall be seeking arbitration. This is your last warning. Regards, Asterion 00:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
This article has been {{ sprotected}} due to probable sockpuppet editing by the blocked. Will review in a few days. — xaosflux Talk 01:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks very much for your prompt action. Best regards, Asterion 01:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that you must unprotect. becose the user Asterion don wont to make a real artikel about the Serbia how hie wont to say "purper Serbia" . My friend the purper Serbia in english language is Serbia. If yo say that the Kosovo is part of serbia then you mus make a new artikel abot the "purper Serbia". Go a hade maket and the aricel in wich is standin that Kosovo is a part of Social Republic of Serbia. This state dont exist anymore.-- Vete 02:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Asterion go maket. And then acplane the words "purpel", "littel" and "central" - Serbia-- Hipi Zhdripi 20:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Hipi Zhdripi you were in breach of your 24hs block when using your sockpuppet Vete, instead using this period to reflect on your actions. Asterion 21:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but so many users here speak English badly. Could you improve it so that we can all understand you? -- HolyRomanEmperor 22:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Dear Albanian friends, while Serbs have managed to wiki-capture your country (by blocking it), please help us improve entries on Serbia.
On top of the page of the article it is NOT "Kosovo OR Kosovo and Met.", please stop reverting to that. The Metohija part is the Serbian way of saying, feel free to have it in the Serbian naming part, not in the official one. And the map MUST NOT show it as a part of any country, as long as its status is not determined. READ: Kosovo's status is YET to be determined. I propose to include the following picture, as it shows where Kosova is located in the map of Europe [20]. If you keep including maps with Metohija names, and where Kosovo is shown as part of Serbia, you will only inspire people to revert it. It is a natural reaction from Albanians in Kosova, as we've had enough of that for more than a decade now. Thank you for understanding, Ilir pz 10:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The only oficel name is "Kosovo"-- Hipi Zhdripi 18:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Ilir pz, you are confusing me. You are also avoiding my questions and advices. Of course the split of Yugoslavia whould have been like the one between Sweden and Norway. I can tell you that Wikipedia is NOT for PERSONAL OPINIONS. Therfor I will not answear your question whenever I want to see a Independant Repubulic of Kosova, or if Kosovo and Methoija should stay within the Union of SCG. It woulden't change my opinions on anything if they whould be independant or if they would stay. The most important is the best for the people and to keep the culture heritage of all peoples. If you want to know a very good reason why the question about Kosovos independance should be on the hold? More areas like, western Macedonia, Sandzak and Republika Srpska could strive for independance and this whould only be more unstable for the whole region and maybe in the worst case produce more wars. My opinion is baised that education, democracy and finacial investments are the only way for Kosovo and the rest of Balkan to be a peaceful part of Europe. From now on I will answear on your talk page, since we are commited to two discussions with the same topics. Best regards Litany
Who knows how to make a link to discussion from the past to put them in archive but accessable? It would be helpful.
E vetmja zgjidhje është që Sebërt ta bojin një artike "Molo Serbia"= "Litel Serbia" dhe një artikull "Velika Serbia"=Great Serbia. Në artikullin e fundit mujin mi shti Kosovën. Po atëher gjithë historin që e kanë shkru për Sërbin e që është e lidhne për terenin e Kosovë duhet me u qujtë historia e Kosovës. Edhe historia e banorëve të këtij tereni duhet e u thirrë historia e Kosovarëve. Krejt pincat që janë të prezentunë si serb e që vijin prej Kosovës duhet me u dryshu që janë kosovar. Mos u brengosni se këtë punë kurr nuk pranojin. Pasi që ata nuk e pranojin qashtu duhet me gjetë kompromisin. Edhe gjitha artikujt që kanë të bëjnë me Kosovën duhet me qenë të ndame ashtu si janë në praktikë. Në artikullin e Serbia and Montenego mujin me përmen në pjesën e parë që Kosova ende është antare e RSFJ. Nsërsa Serbia (Malo Serbia dhe Vojvodina) dhe Mali i zi (Malcia) janë në lidhje shtetrore (nuk është kjo as Union as Federat apo Konfederat por në anglisht thuhet Bound). Nëse dëshironi ndonjëri mund ta përkëthejë përmiq tanë në botë në gjuhen angleze.
This notce has been removed several times (deliberate or not). May I just remind users that since this page is semi protected, a semi protection notice should be included on the page. I can't really think of any possible conflict surrounding that. Therefore may I request it is left in place until semi protection is removed. Thanks! Ian13/ talk 20:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
See: the serb version of Kosovo
...still unclear, as the final status of Kosovo is the subject of an ongoing dispute between government of Serbia and Kosovo's government...-- Hipi Zhdripi 22:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The use Asterion have a problem with him self. He gives to me the better argumet that I have finde in internet.
(last) 22:13, 11 April 2006 Asterion (What are you on about now? The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is dead since 1991)
Are you agree with this argument. -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
If you know better than I Engish, that is dosen t maen that you know somthing about Kosovo, but you are only trying to make Edit war in Kosovo page. -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
How is maken her war? Go and make war in Serbian seits?-- Hipi Zhdripi 22:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Somebody placed this article into "Serbia and Montenegro" category, but it should be moved to "Subdivisions of Serbia and Montenegro" category since "Serbia and Montenegro" category is for "Serbia and Montenegro" article only. Can somebody of administrators to change this category? PANONIAN (talk) 02:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a part from Hipi defensiever War. I dont wont to be a part of this Serbians Govermant Propaganda. -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
"Medieval - The arrival of Serbs, the unified Serbian Lands and the Serb Kingdom"
OK I accept the serbs are all sllavs in Balkan. Wat is meaning "serb"?
In year 2000 to is meaning War in Sllovenia, War in Croatia, War in Bosnja, War in Kosovo, War in Serbia, War in Wikipedia. The futer War Planet Earh.
Wat is meaning "serb"?
NO COMENT, -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
70% af the articel is "History" , 10% is links, 19,999999 Images.
The Realty in Kosovo is:
and
You can put, and put, you can work to destroy Wikipedia (You cant do nothing in Kosovo). If you are so sure that Kosovo is a part of Serbia, go in Kosovo. Dont tell the word how pure you are. In Sllovenia war, Croatia War, Bosnja War, Kosovo War and Serbia War you was LOSER. Hello hier is not Kosovo hier is the articel about Kosovo. Dont lose your time go and kille the peopel ther.-- Hipi Zhdripi 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Im very, very sorry about my neigborse in Balkan becose they are payeing this stiupid propaganda. They have the reale ekonomikel problems and must see how the Sebian Govermant is given mony to make the propaganda in Wikiedia. Wach ever artikel wich has to do with Balkan they hawe put ther spions and workers only to tell the Word that balkan is liven in Medieval time. This Serbiens Govermand hier in Kosovo artike is this argument. Sorry peopel Im a Wikipedian and I cant fite with that most corruptit govermant in Balkan wich are payen this propaganda. The peopel in Serbia (Belgrad are living so many peopel in the street) dont have nothing to eat, and they govermant is given mony to War Edits in Wikipedia. My argument is not so bad. Watch he histori of the eache artikel and you are going to understand wat Im meaning. Event if you dont understand my word you are going to see wat Im traying to say. It is esay.
Welcomen to the Empire of Serbia over Balkan (The image it was a maestak ther is no Vojvodina, alarm call the UDBA to kill Hipi Zhdripi) in Wikipedia eith the payet mony from the Serbian Govermant.
This is a speed War Edition from Serbian Govermant, but shit it dosent work in real life, in Prishtina is still "Skederbeg"-- Hipi Zhdripi 23:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Please can sombody translet the Word "SERB". Wat that word is meaning in english. And they call himself Serb. Go in Prishtina, meat a old man, ask him to sing a song from history and then you are going to know wat is that word in english. This word Servia from slav maket to Serbia is meaning in albanian north dialeckt .... . Please do me a fiwer go in the Rashka, Prizren and Deqani trink a Raki with a Pope ther and user this chance to asked him to go to the church arkive. -- Hipi Zhdripi 00:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Ummm... Me not understand. Me no speak as good as you. Me thinks you should learn to speak Engleziet.
Me too dont andersten my self (hehe.. ) but this you cann anderset. You asked, for it http://www.montenegro.org/origins.html-- Hipi Zhdripi 23:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
But enough of this. I honestly don't see how this guy can contribute to this Wikipedia, he obviously speaks almost no English. Also, even when he does write something in medium-clear English, it still makes no sense. I've seen he's a good contributor to Shqip Wiki, but seriously, Hipi, learn English and then come back here (if you have the need). This has gone too far. Also, I think he may be trying to tell us something about the word "Serb"... Good luck finding out what... -- serbiana - talk 00:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
...is talking very bad English. I'm sorry to object this harshly, but this is getting ridiculous, as I managed to decipher only every 3rd word and other users even less.
Check again. The history sections' 50-60%. Ofcourse this should be the most important part; Kosovo has a very, very rich history (at least richer than most parts of the world).
Perhaps things would've been better if the User stated what he wanted to say.
Sincerely. -- HolyRomanEmperor 13:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
HolyRomanEmperor je si li ti pravoslavac ili albanc? Ili, ne znas sta si? zasto si ovu ime preuzeo. Pa ljudi moj ko zna sta si, ali ti znas da treba ta svasta radis samo neka bude Velika Serbia. Ko to kaze ko to laze da Serbia je Mala, gledaj Wikipedi u engleski sta je radila. Probudi se moj sine i gledaj u Skaderbgu u Pristinu.-- Kanuni 16:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Kanuni, odnosno Hippi Zhdripi, jel' su te roditelji ucili da nije pristojno pitati nekog sta je po nacionalnosti? Ili su mozda bili zauzeti predavanjima o zlocinima Srba? Imas albansku vikipediju, knock yourself out. -- serbiana - talk 18:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Hej, Hipi zna da u Kosovo (Pec, Djakovica ...nema srbi samo "cërnagor" to nisu "shka") Crnogorci. Gledaj u Ulcinj. Ako mislite ovako i za Crnogorci kao za Albanci, treba da razmislite, u Novi Pazar "Njegosh". Pa nisu svi pravoslavci Srbi, ovi placeni ljudi iz Moske hoce da svi pravolslavci bude Srbi. U Kosovo su 7 % pravslavci to ne znaci samo za propaganda kaziti da su svih srbi bolje bi bilo da kaze se pravoslavci ili slaveni. I sa ovom je odgovoren zasto su vecina albanaca u Kosovo muslimanci i da su sve crkve u Kosovo izgubilu su narod. A sad kaze da su srbski crkve. Te ckve su Dugagjin s Crkve i pripadaju Kosovo, bilo kako je bio to je istina. Crkva ne boj se jeli su to albanci, srbi, crnogori ili turci za crkvu je vazno katolici, muslimani i orthodokski. Ako ne verujet, svaki Pop koj je interesieran moze da gleda u bizantisku arkivu. A taj arkiv je u Istambolu (Konstatinopol-polje). Ne znaci da Polje je slavenski jezik to ti je Ilirski sada se kaze albaski jeszik ili stari grcki jezik. ++ -- Kanuni 17:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Ne samo da lose govoris engleski, vec i srpski (doduse, drago mi je sto srpski govoris bolje nego engleski). Ja volim sve Albance koji ne mrze mene kao Srbina, a imam i Crnogorske krvi. Ako crkve na Kosovu nisu srpske, zasto ih palite i unistavate? Inace, for your information, za muslimansku crkvu se kaze "dzamija" ili "mosque". A ovo ostalo ne bih ni komentarisao jer nema nikakvog smisla. Hippi, stop using Kanuni as your sockpuppet. -- serbiana - talk 18:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
My Son, They burn the church becose the priste is saying tha the Church is Serbian Church. Nevermain. If your blood is "crnogorske" (montenegrin) way yo dont say that you are the montenegrin, but evry time wat you write hier is "the serbian land, serbien peopel, sebien nation, serbie, serbien, serbien..... Way? if it is the same montenegrin=serb then writte that the slavik peopel in Kosovo are montenegrins or lette the Wikipedians to know the true. No, no-no you are half serb and half russian.-- Hipi Zhdripi 19:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm half-Serb, half-Croat, for your information. Also, burning a church is a crime no matter what the priest is saying, and people who burn churches are criminals, vandals, and should be punished by the law. Sadly, in Kosovo, if Albanians are comitting a crime, there is no law to stop them, especially if they're acting against Serbs. Also, it's spelled WHY, and not WAY. And don't call me your Son, it just makes me... I don't want to say it. -- serbiana - talk 19:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
To burn a church is wrong, to burn hiself is wrong. But they hat Serbia so much that if you say i am a serb they forget themself. Way the montenegrins in kosovo dont hawe a problems. They live together with albanians arond the Peja, Prizren, Istog and Gjakova. Ther are to many maontenegrins who dont care about the Belgrad they make they bisnes. I was last year in montenegro. My Ongel live ther in Gucia. I drinket Raki with him and his neigbor (cërnagor komshia), he trait all the time to be neutral. He dont wontit to call him serb, and he says claer that he is a "Cërnagor" and Njegosh son. He accepet that the invasion of Montenegro and Serbia in albanian teritory after the albaners hawe drop the osmans from Uskup/Skopje it was not fair. And he says that he anderstand that this is going to be not acceptet from albaners, becose he know the Albanian Kanun, ist strikt and dont late plecases for treachery. The Begrad (ruso-serb) have make tthe same thing with, knin and the hercegovina. The put the Knins and herzegovina in the name of Serbia in War agains the family and the treachery. So I dont care wat you and who you are but if you hawe live in Balkan you must know "The Kanun" or how the "pravoslavci" says "Justian Codex". -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
This is becoming a Serbian forum. Stick to English please, no matter how bad the quality might be. Thank you, Ilir pz 22:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
http://www.elsie.de/pdf/B2002GatheringClouds.pdf
On 18 October 1912, King Peter of Serbia issued a declaration ‘To the Serbian People’, proclaiming:
“The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too. By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future. In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality.”
Wach the Milosevic declaration to the "serbian" in Kosovo befor the Balkan Wars in year 1900-2000.
Right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Kosovo&oldid=48482057. -- estavisti 22:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
We cann late the version of the Serban Goverment Propaganda (SGP) or we prasent Kosovo like Kosovo is prasentit in the UN. Kosovo is it prasent in UN from UNMIK. I dont think that for Wikipedians the Serbien law is more importen then UN Law. The only Kosovo represantiv body for Kosovo in UN is UNMIK. You cann intepret and play wich game you will, but the realy is this UNMIK-- Hipi Zhdripi 01:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, I've having trouble understanding what this user wishes to communicate. This discussion is simply pointless, as one side does not have an ability to articulate its views in English. -- estavisti 01:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
In wikipedia in this time is.
-- Hipi Zhdripi 02:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
LEARN ENGLISH, HIPI! Before you do that, I don't want to see you on this talk page. -- serbiana - talk 02:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
I am not one of the participants in this dispute and revert war, but I want to help you to find compromise instead of constant revert wars. Here is the proposal: why not discuss your changes one by one, and solve problems one by one. Here I will list the various disputes from the article and the users who participate in this edit war could discuss these problems one by one PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
My opinion is that since both, Albanian and Serbian language are official in Kosovo, both names should be written. I do not have opinion whether Albanian or Serbian name should be written first (other users should discuss about that here). PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm okay with the albanian names, as long as there are serbian ones also. The order doesn't matter.
Since Kosovo is officially part of Serbia, we need to use serbian official name for that teritory, and that is "Kosovo i Metohija". Since this is english language site, this name should be converted to english, and that is "Kosovo and Metohija".
I also do not have opinion which one of the two maps should be included, so, please post the arguments why one of them should be here instead of another. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo and Metohija should be represented inside the map of Serbia & Monte Negro. WHY??? ... Starting from the meaning of the word "Kososvo", meaning "Black bird" in Serbo-Croatian language, while in Albanian language it never had an understandable meaning. Kosovo is purely part of the Serbian historic heriditary, since centuries ago. We just need to bring back in time the Battle of Kosovo, where the Serbians fought the Ottoman Empire. The Serbian Orthodox Church headquoters were located in Peja till 1945. How everything started? How Kosovo became Albanian, and how did it lose its Serbian people? The Albanians that inhibit nowdays Kosovo, are highlanders, which during the Ottoman Empire conquest of the Ballkans stepped down from the Northern Albanian Alps to the field of Kosovo. They were Catholics, in their begining of invasion, but were forced to be converted to Muslims, so they did not have to pay taxes and at the same time did not have to participate in the Ottoman Empire armies. At the same time their conversion to Muslims was positively proclaimed by the Ottoman policies, since the Serbian population was and remained through centuries of Christian Orthodox religion. In what other way can be explained the islamic religion in countries such as Bosnia & Hercegovina, Albania and in the Serbian territory of Kosovo and Metohija, the fact that their populations are mostly made by Muslims, surrounded by Orthodox countries?! The second thing, that influenced the Albanian domination in Kosovo, is the fact that even today the birth rate of the Albanians in Kosovo is too high compared to the other inhabitants of Kosovo. This has happened for centuries, and ecxplains very well how the percentage of Serbians and Albanians is this one that results today. As an Albanian of Albania, i consider the independence of Kosovo as very dangerous for the future of Europe. If it happens that Kosovo and Metohija gets united with Albania, the balance in region is going to lose and at the same time, the highlanders of Kosovo will do the same to the inhabitats of Albania as what they did to the Serbians of Kosovo.
First of all, status of Kosovo and Metohija is defined. It is Serbia's province, under temporary UN administration. Its future status can be changed, but its current status is very clear. Since Kosovo and Metohija is officialy part of Serbia, and since this article belongs to category "Disputed teritories" (note TERITORIES), that TERITORY should be displayed as a part of state to which it belongs. Map on the right is so called political map (map which display state borders and nothing else), and it is perfect for part of article in which it resides. Map in Geography section is just as it should be. Since this part of article is talking about geography, map is larger, with geographical details. Political situation is not important here. So, if you ask me, both maps are perfect, and should not be changed.
The dispute here is how status of Kosovo is currently defined, so please discuss this question here. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
As i have sad in Problem 2., status of Kosovo and Metohija is defined. It is Serbia's province, under temporary UN administration. Its future status can be changed, but its current status is very clear. "It is not part of any country" is at least stupid, because it is impossible not to be part of any country. If it is not part of any country, then it is a country, and Kosovo and Metohija is not a country, so it must be a part of some country. And that is Serbia. Just see the phone dialing codes. Serbia's is +381. Guess what is for Kosovo and Metohija. Of course +381. So, there is a two possible situation - Serbia is part of Kosovo and Metohija, which is not, and Kosovo and Metohija is part of Serbia, which is.
Well, for the NPOV presentation, both the reference to the "separatist KLA by then considered a terrorist organization" and to the "Serbian Army attempted to purge the region of ethnic Albanians" should be removed from preface part by my opinion as clear "bad faith" edits. You discuss these four questions for now, and if you find compromise about them, we can move to other questions. I will not further participate in the discussion about these four questions, I just offered my proposals how to solve them. PANONIAN (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, why do you call yourself Ilir. The only ones who can claim to be of Illyrian origin are Croats, and some Serbs. Unsigned edit by User:Gianni ita
OK, I see. So that doesn't have to do anything with the Illyrians. Gianni_ita
Dear Dardanv and others. First of all you don't have to be anonymous, and you don't have to do ridiculous threats. We can do a "wiki-war" if you want, I don't want it. You know I'm from a country who stoped participate in wars 1814!!! Still your are provocative and an extremist which I think is because there is alot of missunderstanding and ethnic phobia. I don't belong to any side and I don't sympathize with any more then the NPOV side. Everybody should be heard and not denied. So common.. I hope we can bury ALL nationalism and hatred with Milošević, even from your side (and please don't deny that it exist). Kosovo is lost to Serbia now (is what I belive) and then anybody can have their thoughts about it. But the most important thing is that all could work for a better future (without nationalism) in the Balkans. The world is not better until it is done. I think you can contribute most, in your own country. So why not prove you are better then the Serb nationalists and teach and support the NPOV side? If you want to continue with adding Albanian extremism into other articels and reverting we can sadly continue. But I hope/wish/beg you not... many thanks Litany
This is my opinion on PANONIANs proposal to compromise: 1. I think it should just be Kosovo, since this is the English version of Wikipedia. Or maybe Kosovo and then Albanian and Serbian? 2. I think the map over Serbia and Montenegro as long as Kosovo is a part of it. 3. It is "a province of Serbia and Montenegro, currently under UN administration", which is the truth. 4. I agree that it should be removed.. if you ask me if KLA is a terror organisation I would say yes, and JNA was not much better... Litany
And to stress smth out to Litany, it is not a province of Serbia :), it is a territory under UN administration, as defined by UNMIK. Find one place in their official website [1] where they mention it being a province of Serbia, and then we can discuss further. Let us respect Kosovo institutions which were democratically elected, and edit the article accordingly. Ben uk 10:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
So, I suggest that you change in both versions things about which both sides agreed (To write only English name Kosovo in infobox, and to remove POV parts about Kosovo war from preface part), and then try to find compromise about another questions. PANONIAN (talk) 21:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't feed trolls'. Best response to inflammatory remarks is to ignore them. Your threats in other talk pages have been noticed too. Regards, Asterion 00:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
You cannot remove comments posted by other people on the talk pages (it is against the rules of Wikipedia). As for city naming, until the final status of Kosovo is solved, I cannot say in what language names should be written for the cities. According to 1244 resolution, Kosovo is autonomous territory within Serbia-Montenegro, and currently Serbia-Montenegro have only one official language - Serbian. There are two possible solutions fot the final status of Kosovo:
In both cases Albanian will be one of the official state languages, and in that case names of the Kosovo cities with Albanian majority should be written in Albanian, and names of the Kosovo cities with Serbian majority in Serbian. However, at the present moment, Albanian is only "regional language", and not "state language", and English usually use names from one of the state languages. But, since every naming solution is only temporar in this case (until the final solution for Kosovo), I will wait that solution to say my opinion how cities should be named. The worst thing of course is to have twin articles about these cities, one in Serbian and another in Albanian, like Rahovec- Orahovac, Kačanik- Kaçanik, Deqani- Dečani, etc. PANONIAN (talk) 20:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, there are so many Albanians in Italy and in some parts of Switzerland that you are going to ask for the independence of these areas also very soon. There is nothing except for the high number of Albanians in Kosovo (I repeat again, after the WWII there were as many Serbs as Albanians in Kosovo, but that situation changed drastically, because of the reasons that have been mentioned before), that gives you right to claim this region. I know you know that.
About the resolution 1244. You were right Ilir, it doesn't mention Serbia and Montenegro anywhere, but it does mention Yugoslavia, which is the same thing.
Gianni ita 15:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Here Ilir, http://www.tenc.net/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm Gianni ita 21:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
And, it's me again. No need to discuss any more about the resolution 1244. On the NATO's website there is a whole resolution with all the small changes made by NATO. It clearly says that KOSOVO IS PART OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA (SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO), CURRENTLY ADMINISTERED BY THE UN INTERNATIONAL FORCES.
http://www.nato.int/kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm
Gianni ita 15:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Both Serbs and Albanians from Kosovo had their trucks loaded with their opponents, as you describe it. Both sides are guilty. Serbs killed more than Albanians did, but Albanians drove away a massive amount of Serbs (but as i said earlier, croats and bosnian muslims killed 10 times more serbs in the wwii, than serbs killed croats and bosnian muslims this last war, but that doesn't make any of the sides more or less guilty, they should both be ashamed and should pay a price for these crimes). so why would kosovo be independent, i'm asking you again?
And one more thing, Albanians were always privileged under Tito's regime. I have a friend who is Gorani from Dragas (southern Kosovo) and whose family escaped from Kosovo a long time ago, because of the repression by the albanian kosovars, and there are many other families like his, it's not the living standard that made them move to Belgrade.
Gianni ita 18:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
RESPONSE TO ILIR: OK, I read the web site that you recommended me. The only thing is that only albanian kosovars have a word there. I can give you some ultra nationalist Serbian sites and you'll see the completely different picture, but neither of these are true, the sooner you realize that, the better it will be for your own education. The books that you read in school, they were written by some Albanian Kosovar who was a part of the infamous UCK (KLA). You, the people of Kosovo (especially of albanian origin), ought to learn more from Western European books.
You have to admit, like I admited, that both Serbian army and albanian kosovar army bear the same responsibility. Or at least, that both commited disastrous crimes. A lot of people who have were responsible will never be put on a trial, and among them were your leader, who should have died like Milosevic, Ibrahim Rugova, and Hasim Taci, who is one of the negotiators for the albanian kosovars (UNBELIEVABLE!!)(He is wanted by both serbian and macedonian police but he will never be convicted, unfortunately)
Who mentioned kosovo's academy of science and arts? As far as I know, these people don't declare wars. And they certainly don't make plans about how to finance and support separatist organizations. They have a lot of better things to do.
Let's go back to Tito now. Read a little bit more about him on any page you want, and you'll see his policies about Kosovo. Yes, Albanians were privileged under his regime. More...Kosovo was never a republic, just an autonomous province of Serbia (you impress me with how much you know).
And after every time you say that there are 90% of Albanians in Kosovo now, I will repeat after you, after the WWII there was the same number of serbs and albanians. But, because of the repression by the albanian kosovars, a lot of Serbs, Roma, and Gorani's left this region. And you can check that here . http://www.tenc.net/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm
And about Kosovo being poor... Why do you complain that serbia took all the minerals from Kosovo when Kosovo was autonomous province. Do I complain about what Albania is doing with it's mines.
Gianni ita 21:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
"Why do you complain that serbia took all the minerals from Kosovo when Kosovo was autonomous province. Do I complain about what Albania is doing with it's mines." You sir are a moron. Read that a few times and you will see that your logic is that of a simian. And please stop posting some hacks writings as facts. Firstly, KLA has not committed even a fraction of atrocities the serbs did in Kosova.Everyone who has a brain knows that.
IN RESPONSE TO THIS UNSIGNED OFFENSE. First, i don't want to feed trolls. Autonomous doesn't mean independent. Serbia took a lot and gave a lot more to it's autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija. Wheat from another autonomous province, Vojvodina feeds all the Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo gives minerals.... Gianni ita 19:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should agree that the status talks held in Vienna now are between the delegations of two democratically elected governments, that of Serbia and Kosova. user: Asterion is reverting that part continuously. Serbian govt is not talking to Albanian "people" randomly selected in the streets of Kosovo, but those are ministers, heads or members of political parties of Kosovo. Opinion (for now, Asterions not) needed. And please, if you are not from Kosovo, and base your arguments on your life experience IN KOSOVO, then try to prove why you think what you´re saying is so, as it is not fair anyone from Andalusia or Chile to come and drop opinions here. This is a sensitive issue, and I ask for more understanding from non-Kosovo citizens. Thank you, Ilir pz 15:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
It is nice that progress was made regarding preface part and infobox. Now please, Ilir pz and Gianni ita, you should not discuss here whether Kosovo should be independent or not, but concrete disputes about article. So, please tell me what are the other disputed parts of the article, since I see that nobody reverting it now. As for the names of the articles about Kosovo cities, I just said my opinion how they should be named at the present moment, but I really do not care whether names of these articles would be in Serbian or Albanian. So, Ilir pz, it is not me with whom you should to argue about that. PANONIAN (talk) 03:15, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Panonian, I didn't even notice the new version of the article because of constant arguing with Ilir.
This article is a lot better than the previous one. Whoever wrote it did a good job to represent both Serbian and Albanian Kosovar side.
The only two things that I disapprove of are: 1. In 1912 during the Balkan Wars, Kosovo and Albania were conquered by Serbia while eastern part of Kosovo was captured by Montenegro. Serbia aimed at ethnically cleansing Kosovo of its Albanian population.... Following this document, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place in the next decades, ending up with the Milosevic era.
The expulsion did happen in the 1912, but it didn't continue until 1999. Those were two waves, not a continous one. In the meawhile there were also waves of expulsion of Serbian population, as you mentioned. Gianni ita 19:08, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Now, you must be joking. Which Serbian leader in Kosovo. Since the end of the WWII 90% of the political leaders in Kosovo were kosovar albanians (presidends, prime ministers...). In the 20th century Serbs tried to erradicate Albanians just before the WWI and while Milosevic was in power, between these to waves, especially after the WWII albanian kosovars started something like a cold war against Serbs in Kosovo. Gianni ita 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about brainwashing. I'd rather say that the technique of Joseph Goebbels was used in Albania and within kosovar albanian media. Gianni ita 19:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
2.After the Dayton Agreement and numerous atrocities committed by Serb security forces inside Kosovo, the disillusioned Albanians organized into the Kosovo Liberation Army and started a guerrilla war for liberation. It's not a war for liberation when you organize a terroristic separatistic group and kill Serbs, Gorani's, Jews, Roma's, or expell them. http://www.tenc.net/interviews/keys.htm
Frenki was never in Kosovo. KLA is financed by the albanian officials (mafia) who get their money from drug and people trafficking. (I tried to be neutral so far but now I just can't stand any more arguing with someone who doesn't even try to be neutral. I tried to explain that both sides are guilty and I wanted to reach a compromise with you and\or Ilir, but that just was not possible) http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/01/heroin.html
Gianni ita 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I repeat again Frenki was not in Kosovo. His units were in Bujanovac, Presevo and Medvedja, which don't belong to kosovo. I'm not interested in family stories as they are very efficient tool to cause simpathy, and the objectivity of these events is very hard to confirm. If you did loose a friend like that, I am sorry, many Serbs did too. Gianni ita 19:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
One thing that is important to mention is that according to OSCE numbers and Kosovar Albanian sources on population size and distribution, an estimated 45.7 percent of the Albanian population and 59.5 percent of the Serb population had fled Kosovo during the bombings (i.e. from 23 March to 9 June 1999).2 , and after this day who knows how many more others fled http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/nato.htm
It is also important to mention the number of Albanians that returned to Kosovo, and the ones that decided to move from Albania after the 1999. http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/publ/opendoc.htm?tbl=RSDLEGAL&id=3ae6b33b14&page=publ while Serbs can't return.
Otherwise, history part and everything else is just perfect, it's not pro serbian nor pro albanian.
Gianni ita 08:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I just noticed another small irregularity. The Kosovo government has been widely praised for paying for the rebuilding of Serb houses in the aftermath of the 2004 riots. This has been marked as the first case of reparations in the history of the Balkans.
It's not the first case of reparations. Serbs financed all the expenses of rebuilding Vukovar, Croats financed all the expenses of rebuilding some parts of Mostar that they ruined... And I'm not sure that Kosovo Govt. is actually helping Serbian minority, if KFOR wasn't there, not even one Serbian monastery will still be there, and you will hardly find any serb there. It is still KFOR that maintains peace, not the Kosovar Albanian Govt.
Gianni ita 08:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Ben uk, or Ilir, (I don't know who am I talking to because you might be one of Ilir's sockpuppets)if you read carefully what it says in the article you will understand what I am refering to. To help you, it said that albanian kosovar govt. helped rebuild some of the ruined serbian houses, and that this was the first time in the Balkan peninsula that this kind of a thing happened. That's why I mentioned cases where Serbian, and Croatian governments did those things before. Gianni ita 21:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a lot in common with Asterion, although I see that we have the same aim in this discussion page, and that is to leave Kosovo to Serbia. I don't know why these insults? You do know that it was said few days ago in the beginning of this discussion page that you were suspected of being Ilir's sockpuppet? Gianni ita 19:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
This discussion page is way to long, how about moving it to an archive? suggestions appreciated! Ben uk 00:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Move it to an archive. Litany
I hope you can forgive me. I made some changes on this article but I'll explain the adding so there will be no more missunderstanding. 1: "Following this document, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place in the next decades, ending up with the Milosevic era." this is true, but no expulsion was made between 1941 and 1990?/1996?... changed to "During the next decades, expulsion of Albanians from Kosovo took place." 2: added "It is also estimated that 400.000 Serbs were clensed from the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Ottoman war in 1897. (see Demographic history of Kosovo)". Why? It's the truth. 3: ..eastern part of Kosovo "(Metohija to Orthodox)"... this is essentially right. In all my books (and no crap about it's chetnik books or whatever) it says "Metohija was given to Montenegro instead of Shkodra".
so please.. we should all cooperate. I listen to you and I expect the same from you. We should discuss and not argue. Have a nice weekend everyone/ Litany
1. I added Serbian theory that they are the descendants of Illyrians, although I think that it is very unlikely. 2. I added that Albanians voted on the 12. of january 1992. for the independence of one part of Macedonia 3. I added that during the protests, not Kosovar, but kosovar albanian students were asking for the independence of kosovo. 4. I deleted the part which mentioned continous expelling of Albanians since 1912. that was a big lie. 5. I changed the description of the KLA the way it should be described, and I added that Serbian forces killed way more innocent people than the KLA.
Tell me what you think of the changes!
Gianni ita
20:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Above all, DISCUSS SOMETHING FIRST, and then if majority of us agrees (just like majority will decide about the status of Kosovo, as Contact Group last meeting confirmed [5], I will quote for you "Ministers look to Belgrade to bear in mind that the settlement needs, inter alia, to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo. "). Only then can you wish us to have a nice weekend. Ben uk 21:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Response to Ben uk. 1. If you represent the some nationalist ideas of Albanian people, why wouldn't there be netionalist ideas of Serbian people too, although I don't agree with them. 2. Source to back that claim can be found here This is a site which highly criticizes Serbia becacuse of its action in Kosovo, but you can find under 12. January 1992. what had happened http://www.radicalparty.org/milosevic/processo_2.htm http://mondediplo.com/1999/01/13maced i repeat again this happened on 12.1. 1992. why don't you think this happened. 3. We agree 4. for the tenth time http://www.tenc.net/articles/thompson/rootsof.htm read this. Serbs were the victims between the two waves of albanian expelling. 5. Just type KLA DRUGS on google and see what you get. KLA is just like al qaeda, just like scorpions in Serbia.
Gianni ita 21:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir, don't make me laugh. You can't get serbian sites when you type KLA DRUGS on google. Click on the second site that you get, it's from washington times. In case you somehow didn't find it here it is www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/KLA-drugs.html or you have from the daily oklahoman May 28. 1999. this excerpt In 1998 the State Department listed the KLA as an international terrorist organization that supported itself with drug profits and through loans from known terrorists like bin Laden. And the site that i gave you to prove that albanians voted for the independence of one part of macedonia is http://www.radicalparty.org/milosevic/processo_2.htm this site is criticizing both milosevic and all his colleagues, while the other site is a bit more neutral http://mondediplo.com/1999/01/13maced . WHY WOULD YOU NOT ACCEPT THESE FACTS? IT'S NOT OFFENDING ANYONE, IT'S JUST STATED THAT ALBANIANS VOTED FOR THE INDEPENDENCY OF ONE PART OF MACEDONIA? about question one, someone saying that albanians are illyrians and someone saying that serbs are illyrians are albanian and serbian nationalist, because we already have albanian extreme nationalist side presented why wouldn't we have serbian also just to get the balance. Gianni ita 15:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Ben UK, i admit, the geocities is not credible, but you have the same article, and it says the same date (and both are from Washington Times) on this site http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=1048 Why don't you want to coment other sites, why aren't you accepting the fact that albanians from macedonia voted for the independence of one part of macedonia? Gianni ita 19:26, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo is just a part of the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija. The article represents Kosovo as Kosovo and Metohija, and that's wrong. Thats like saying Serbia is the same as Serbia and Montenegro, there's no difference... You can't do that. Just because it may be a little hard for Westerners to pronounce Metohija and most people haven't heard of that word in their lives, doesn't mean that the article title shouldn't contain the word. If Kosovo becomes independent and declares that it is called only Kosovo, and not Kosovo and Metohija, then make the article title "Kosovo". -- Serbiana ₪ 07:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo and Metohija is still a part of Serbia. This is not future Wikipedia, you can't write that Croatia is a part of the EU, even if thats gonna happen soon. If and when Kosovo and Metohija becomes independent, THEN change it to just Kosovo.
And by the way, if Kosovo becomes independent, it won't be for too long. Serbs have lived under the Turks for 500 years and liberated their land, one day Kosovo will be liberated from the Albanians as well, and it will again be a part of Serbia, because it is Serbian holy land. -- Serbiana ₪ 01:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
He he, nice comments. My question is, how come you hate Serbia so much, even though your parents are FROM Serbia? I'm originally from Vojvodina, but since it's a part of Serbia (just like Kosovo and Metohija) I say I'm from Serbia (so should your parents). Your comment just confirms the plan of ethic Albanians to form a Greater Albania in Kosovo and Metohija, Western Macedonia, parts of Greece and Montenegro. Kosovo still is a heart of Serbia, and it will always be the heart of Serbia, because the Albanians may gain their independence, but one day Kosovo will be liberated, and there are a lot of people who think like me, so, Albanians, don't feel too safe... -- Serbiana ₪ 19:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I was talking to Ben. Don't feel too embarrassed.-- Serbiana ₪ 19:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
As long as you're not embarrassed... -- Serbiana ₪ 23:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, this discussion has been entertaining, but honestly it's pretty sad to witness BOTH Serbian and Albanian nationalism on a Wikipedia discussion page. If Albanians and Serbs want to be Europeans and be granted their rightful place within the European Union, then you must learn the lesson the rest of us Europeans already learnt after so many wars: nationalism IS stupid, and so is squabbling about who's the real owner of Kosovo. If the majority of the people in Kosovo opts for it to be independent, then it shall be independent no matter the Serbian attempts to push those rather pathetic arguments, scavenged from the roots of history to justify its possesion over the territory. As for the Albanians, that doesn't mean that you can despise the Serbs. There are still many Serbs living in Kosovo and when Kosovo attains independence their rights must be protected and the ethnic hatred extinguished. We've had too much hatred in Europe already and there's no place for it in the European Union. Neither in Wikipedia.
Asterion/Gianni/Litany, whoever from you are reverting changes constantly, if you think anyone who doesn't share your opinion on Kosovo is a sockpuppet, then you've 2 million such in Kosova itself, and many more outside Kosovo. You are vandalising yourself, big time, by reverting changes, and instead try to accuse someone of sockpuppeting. You even went that far as you insulted by calling "cockpuppeting" [7]. This only shows how frustrated you are with the fact that Kosovo will never be under Serbian rule again, and it will be an independent country sooner than you think. Good luck fighting 2 million "sockpuppets", lol. What was that "go back to LSE about", by the way? Ilir pz 13:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Ilir pz\mark ma\ben uk, I called you sockpuppets because when I opened a profile of one of you, it clearly said that you were a suspected sockpuppet of someone. No need to discuss this any more, we called you sockpuppets, you called us, THE END. Gianni ita 16:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Please only discuss the content of the article here. As long as you only fight there is no meaning to edit something here before adding something to the article. Litany
I think the whole part should be shortened to just "mass expulsion of ethnic groups contiuned from both sides druing the time..." this is more NPOV then not letting anything be said about the events. right? Litany
I suggest the whole frase should be rewritten and include both albanians, serbs and other ethnic groups too. How does that sound? Litany
As no one was interested in discussing or didn't find sources to oppose my facts, i again changed following things, 1. serbian theory that they are illyrians, with which i disagree, but which is needed to balance albanian and serbian nationalism in history. 2. I deleted the sentence where it said that albanians were expelled from serbia since the WWI. the article itself opposes this view, as it is said later in the text that fascist albania during the wwii killed and expelled a lot of serbs. Also during the reign of Tito, no single albanian was expelled, more serbs left Kosovo then Albanians. 3. I added again that after Kosovar Albanians voted for the independency of Kosovo, in 12.1.1992. they also voted for the independency of one part of macedonia. I gave two sites as a proof in previous discussions twice, but there were no reactions.
That's it. I hope everyone is happy now, as the article is clearly unbiased after a long, long, time.
Gianni ita 19:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
2. There is a source for that information, of course I will rever that back. 3. your sites of supporting that claim are not neutral, of course I will revert that back. Advice: Discuss further, and then change when there is agreement here, Mr. Balancer, hehehe. benny 21:36, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
No, the article not only is not neutral, it is completely inaccurate from the beginning to the end. Some of the problems are:
So, I am adding warning header about disputed factual accuracy to the article, though it will be reverted without doubt.
And all the while, our revered editor ChrisO is dutifully watching over the article and probably dying of laughter. The lowest of low. Nikola 23:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
So nobody wants to discuss before changing the content, right? perfect! :)))))) Ilir pz 09:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Read above Ilir. Litany
You are completely right, some only revert changes. You wanna know who? You.
I was trying to make the article more NPOV, but obviously that's not good for you (why, I can't even imagine...). So, Ilir, or whatever your real name is, I know you're from Kosova, and you really really want Kosovo and Metohija to become an independent state, and I frankly don't care anymore (since I live in Canada, doesn't affect me), but we can't go on fighting, and I mean, in every aspect. We discussed the content, it's not like the changes came out of the blue.
The still official name (Kosovo and Metohija) should go first, BUT since the majority of Kosovars are Albanians, I guess it does no harm to put the Albanian name first. Also, Priština is the official name of the city, but OK, lets leave it at Prishtine, or whatever you call it. The history part of the article was very biased, and you will see I left a bunch of stuff on serbian ethnic cleansing, which some Serbs might want to remove, but I guess it is pointless to argue about something that'll most likely never be resolved, and thats why it's still there. Although, I did mention that the Serb gov't claimed that the KLA was a terrorist organization (didn't Milosevic say that? It's not biased, it's history). I'm not saying that it is (although I think that), but I wrote that the Serb gov't thinks it is, and I see no harm in that claim (I also left the text where it says that the purpose of the KLA is to achieve independence).
So, no matter what argues we had before, I realized that it's not going to help fighting about it in this case, so we might as well cooperate, and we might, just might, reach an agreement (just like those guys in Vienna). Cheers, -- Serbiana ₪ 01:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
My suggestion is to lock the page untill final status negotiations are over. -- Serbiana ₪ 02:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Still no response? What do I have to do to get attention from an administrator?? -- Serbiana ₪ 05:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is the proof that elections took place. That's the response to 3rd question i think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilirida under history
or http://www.projects.v2.nl/~arns/Texts/Chrono/MK.html under jan. 1992.
The response to first question, about the origin of Illyrians, I say again, I don's support the idea that Serbs are the descendants of Illyrians, but some people in Serbia actually believe in this, some think they are Celtic descendants, and i agree with Litany that all the nations in the Balkans are actually a mix of all the tribes that went through these places. So, I propose just to add a sentence like that, if you don't want to add that Serbs came from Illyrians or Celts or any other tribe. But only albanian idea about their ancestry doesn't make the article complete. Gianni ita 18:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
And Ben,
I did wait around 4 days for your response in discussion page. And you did visit the page twice since i started this serious discussion, but both you and Ilir were more occupied with the very important problem of who is calling who a sockpuppet.
Gianni ita 18:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
How can Serbs have an Illyrian origin, I mean they came in Balkans at the VII century. At that time the Illyrians where already there! Illyrians were not Slavic, and Serbs are. -- Mig11 11:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Please note that you do not own the article and you cannot simply revert everything. Note here that you violated the wikipedia policy by conducting a personal attack: rv to a previous version. Too much of organized vandalism by pro-serbian nationalists. Discussion needed. Please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks and don't attack users in the future.
Your edits will be reverted. This is a more NPOV version, so I'll put a tag. If anything needs to be discussed, please discuss it here, don't attempt to occupy articles. Best. -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The territory is a province of Serbia under United Nations administration, in the Resolution 1244 (1999), adopted by the United Nations Security Council on 10 June 1999 [13], the UN reafirmed its commitment to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (and its sucessor state, the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, after the country changed its name). Anyone with some knowledge on International Law is aware that Serbia does not have a separate foreign policy (now and when it was part of the FRY), this is left in the hands of the federal government. Therefore, the UN would not deal directly with Serbia or Montenegro, in the same way that it wouldn't do with Scotland separately if a problem were to arise in the UK. Regards, Asterion 06:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Greetings fellow Wikipedians!
I noticed that there was a little argument over the article. Well, I changed a few bits, I hope everyone likes what I did, I think I made it more neutral. That's all from me, you guys can finish the job, you all seem to have a lot of knowledge concerning the issue! Good luck, and I hope you resolve the dispute as soon as possible!!!
-- M.B. 03:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Please do not simply revert everything. You do not own the article. Change what you do not like. The current version is biased and you conducted a massive removal from the history section and elsewhere. Please edit what you think is wrong, not just revert everything carelessly.
Thank you! -- HolyRomanEmperor 14:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Wow, I felt so happy while I was reading HolyRomanEmperor's arguments. I agree 100%. Those just might be the best arguments yet. Thank you for posting that, it really made me happy. Also, I think ilirpz should be blocked, he has done nothing usefull on this Wikipedia except reverting every single edit done to this, and many other Kosovo-related articles. It may be true that Kosovo will one day be independent, but for now, it is considered vandalism to alter the truth in articles. -- Serbiana ₪ 22:21, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I suggest we leave the document as it is, and we go thoroughly through each part of it, a chapter by chapter and revise everything, its sources, relevancy and content. Otherwise I will have no choice but try to stop your pro-serbian reverts. Choose! I will not be lazy to do reverts, if you continue like this! I have no choice. My choices at least have a strong reason - read: I LIVE AND BREATHE IN THE COUNTRY WE ARE DISCUSSING. It is extremely important for my future. For you it is just another wikipedia topic. Think about it, and then waste your time reverting the content here. I guarantee you, your reverts will be very short-lived. I am trying to be constructive here, citing neutral sources, and giving you facts from first-hand experience as well, and you keep citing CPC sources to me, and just keep reverting. Hope you decide to call on your conscience finally. You will regret one day for having wasted your time, as KOSOVA will become independent. Even Draskovic (though I doubt the old wolf, who in the past had his paramilitary groups all over ex-yug, and his mouth was all anti-non-serbian) indicated that, though with many words aside, which I am very suspicious about. [14]. WITH LOVE from KOSOVA, Ilir pz 23:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
correction: Kosovo is not a country. -- Serbiana ₪ 00:11, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
1) "the final status of Kosovo is the subject of an ongoing dispute between government of Serbia and Kosovo's government" - someone forgot the Albanians and the UN ;) and.. Kosovo is still not a country I think, it's not declared or anything.. (is it?) 2) history is very big 3) Swiss franc isn't that wide-spread. -- www.doc 19:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
May I remind everyone that the purpose of the POV tag is to improve an article, not as some apparently try to use it to discredit an entry they are not happy with. A few editors have been trying to reach consensus on the issue but it seems as if any contribution contrary to Albanian nationalism is automatically reverted by some individual(s). This is not the way forward. Unless their behaviour changes or some disciplinary action is taken, we will be stalled at this stage forever. Regards, Asterion 20:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I wish most of the Serbian the participants in wiki think more like this intellectual [16], who is young, smart, and thinks rationally. Additionally another speaker, Mr.Matić clearly says it is "naive using the expression southern serbian province" (cite:"je naivno upotrebljavati izraz južna srpska pokrajina.") [17] He furthermore openly says (which many serbs tend to close their eyes to) that "Ja mislim da je odluka (o statusu Kosova) doneta. Mislim da se sada samo pregovara kako će se to saopštiti javnosti. Jasno je da će predstavnici Srbije odbiti konačno rešenje, izvesno je da će to rešenje biti nezavisnost, ali da će živeti sa tim." May this rationallity spread around wiki as well. There is hope. I want to believe most Serbs in Serbia (will) think this way soon, as it is healthy :))). Regards Ilir pz 11:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Something desperatley needs to be done about this, it is far too mixed, parts of it claim that other parts are incorrect, parts of the article are completely contradictory to others, for too many unproven theories are in it, the length is far too long, and it is plagued by various mostly Albanian, but also Serbian parts too. It also neglects to mention the gradual expulsion of the Serbs from the region during Titos rule.
We had a formal agreement with Boris to move in a more constructive way in the future. I have a several suggestions:
We are wasting too much time accusing each other with "facts" in admin sites, and putting vandalism and sockpuppet labels to each other. Clearly wasting too much time, I have tons of work to do, and I feel ashamed I wasted my time explaining to some some simple things. Let us respect each other's past and move forwards. Thank you, Ilir pz 09:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Please see the CIA World Factbook. If you notice the map of Serbia and Montenegro, it's the standard map with Kosovo and Metohija. Then, if you notice the Administrative divisions bit, you'll see the following:
Now, I've looked the Flags of All Countries, and there's no Kosovo there.
Additionally, according to the Countries of the World, Kosovo isn't a country, and if anyone sees the Serbia and Montenegro entry there, he/she will see the map of SCG with Kosovo. You will also notice the population of the state. It includes the population of Kosovo in it. -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Strangely, Kosovo isn't present not even on the Territories, colonies, & dependencies part.
Now, see the Countries site just to see more sources (repetition...)
I would also advise you to see the Maps of the Countries in the world. Naturally, Kosovo isn't a country, so it isn't present, but Serbia and Montenegro with it's international borders (with Kosovo-Metohija) is... -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Now, if you see the infoplease for Kosovo, you will see that it says Kosovo or Kosovo-Metohija. Note that the West prefers Bosnia-Herzegovina over Bosnia and Herzegovina. Didn't you say that Metohija isn't recognized? Well, neither is Kosovo, but you keep calling it a country. Oh, and Metohija is recognized. You will also see Kosovo (Serbia and Montenegro)
You want official? Well, how more official can it be than the saying that it is a province of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (a. k. a. Serbia and Montenegro).
From Kosovo:
Ilir, you keep repeating, and that is fine with me. You and I can think whatever we want, but our opinion simply doesn't matter. P. S. it's fine that you love your homeland, but what you think about the over-50% unemployement and the ever-growing criminal and corruption within the government? Including people like Agin Ceku in power? -- HolyRomanEmperor 16:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC) HolyRomanEmperor how manny user name youu have hier in en:Wikipedia?
You said: None believes those estimations, or census made by the previous occupatory regime in Kosova.
If none believe, why do they put it in every single Encyclopedia and the whole world recognizes it?
You also said So now you are 'discussing' and Litany is reverting? or you confused your accounts? If you need an CheckUser, go for it. Going around acusing users for being sockpuppets won't acomplish you anything.
You've obviously mistaken regarding my user name. Please see the Holy Roman Emperor article.
Ilir, I asked you to explain your disliking of the version, and you didn't respond.
Please, c'mon. You offered no arguements, no sourced claims and you now keep insulting. Why do you keep up with this? What have we done so that you hate Wikipedia so much?
I think someone should stop people from reverting content of the article, without any comment or explanation.............
...is the one who's been conducted all the reverting. He abandoned the discussion long ago, which made me sad, I thought that we could finally communicate, but he's not interested in talk, only war... -- HolyRomanEmperor 00:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
This articel is not your user page. You are deletin all my work. In Kosovo are not only serb. Ther are the "Crnagori" - montengrins too. They don t speek your launguage and they are not serb.-- Hipi Zhdripi 02:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Try not to be stupid. Don't generalize and blame Serbs for someone deleting your work which is, by the way, incorrect. For your information, Montenegrins speak Serbian Language. Even if they deny it, which would be apsurd, it is truth, but 66% of Montenegrins says that they speak Serbian language with ijekavian dialect. Second, Montenegrins are nation, but again Montenegrins are Serb. It is stupid to say that Montenegrins are not Serbs, or Serbs Montenegrins, so please read some literature and come to write articles on wikipedia. PS: Don't forget to learn English :))
-- Mephistophilus 12:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
He started this subject so I had to answer. Further conversation about this subject is unnecessary. :) -- Mephistophilus 10:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Kosovo is non status are. It is under the UN control till they determined the satatut.
http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/03albanian/A2000regs/RA2000_45.pdf
http://www.unmikonline.org/regulations/unmikgazette/04serbian/SC2000regs/RSC2000_45.pdf
PRIVREMENE INSTITUCIJE 1.1 Do odredjivawa bududjeg statusa Kosova, ova Uredba, u skladu Rezolucijom 1244 Saveta bezbednosti Ujediwenih nacija, uspostavqa privremene institucije za demokratsku i autonomnu samoupravu na op{tinskom nivou kao korak ka postepenom prenosu administrativnih nadle`nosti Privremene administrativne misije Ujediwenih nacija na Kosovu (UNMIK- koja }e nadgledati i pru`ati podr{ku konsolidaciji ovih institucija.
I think if you accept like the serbs in Kosovo accept this document that you are going to anderstuden that the onl law in Kosovo is the UNMIK-law til = Do odredjivawa the statut of Kosovo is determined.
As I said previously, Kosovo is a province of Serbia under United Nations administration, in the Resolution 1244 (1999), adopted by the United Nations Security Council on 10 June 1999 [18] [19], the UN reafirmed its commitment to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (and its sucessor state, the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, after the country changed its name). Anything else is just wishful thinking on your side.
Anyone with some knowledge on International Law is aware that Serbia does not have a separate foreign policy (now and when it was part of the FRY), this is left in the hands of the federal government. Therefore, the UN would not deal directly with Serbia or Montenegro, in the same way that it wouldn't do with Scotland separately if a problem were to arise in the UK. I understand that English is not your native language, as neither is mine, but could you at least use a spellchecker? It is very hard to follow your line of thoughts. Also, please stop using Albanian and Serbo-Croatian language in the talk pages, as you are probably aware that this is the English language wikipedia and your actions could be understood as disrespectful for wikipedians who do not master those languages. Regards, Asterion 13:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
You are maken a mistet. That wath you are saying is the Serbien Law but, not the International Law. Give me a clean document from the UN ( International Law) in wich is standin Kosovo is the Serbian provinc. I can give yua the docment from UN ( International Law) in wich is : Kosovo is a Provinc in Balkan.-- Hipi Zhdripi 18:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
The users account User:HolyRomanEmperor and User:Asterion are maken a community only too make the war edit. They dont let me to help in en:Wikipedia. They foil my planes for evry articel wich it has too do with Kosovo. They are not interested to do a work for Wikipedia, but to stopp and destroi my work in en:Wikipedia. They use the Three-revert rule police, I dont wont to make in hier another accont only to make war with this user.-- Hipi Zhdripi 02:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
i am not going into this discussion as, i would be biased to everything you write her, but to be a sort of source of info you really should gets your facts right. especially when all the things you are mentioning here is what people have died for the last 2000years.
I don't feed trolls. Best answer to inflamatory comments is to ignore them. Hipi Zhdripi and/or Ilir pz, you have shown no respect for other wikipedians and I politely ask you to retract what you are saying. Making false accusations will ultimately get you banned. Asterion 06:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Ilir pz, you are driving people off this page. You are a test for anyone's patience. Every single wikipedians who has tried to NPOVise this article has grown fatigued of your edit wars. You have no intention of improving the article, just "fixing it" to suit your personal views. You keep saying "Do not revert. Discuss", when in fact you are the only person not doing so. Remember Panonian's attempt to elaborate over possible NPOV points? You simply disregarded his efforts and threatened him with vandalise any Serbian article in revenge unless he gave up. That's the spirit I guess! Your behaviour is just not mature or adult-like at all. Once again, I invite you to list the points you find non-factual from the article instead continuing your pointless edit war. If not, I shall be seeking arbitration. This is your last warning. Regards, Asterion 00:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
This article has been {{ sprotected}} due to probable sockpuppet editing by the blocked. Will review in a few days. — xaosflux Talk 01:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks very much for your prompt action. Best regards, Asterion 01:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that you must unprotect. becose the user Asterion don wont to make a real artikel about the Serbia how hie wont to say "purper Serbia" . My friend the purper Serbia in english language is Serbia. If yo say that the Kosovo is part of serbia then you mus make a new artikel abot the "purper Serbia". Go a hade maket and the aricel in wich is standin that Kosovo is a part of Social Republic of Serbia. This state dont exist anymore.-- Vete 02:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Asterion go maket. And then acplane the words "purpel", "littel" and "central" - Serbia-- Hipi Zhdripi 20:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Hipi Zhdripi you were in breach of your 24hs block when using your sockpuppet Vete, instead using this period to reflect on your actions. Asterion 21:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but so many users here speak English badly. Could you improve it so that we can all understand you? -- HolyRomanEmperor 22:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Dear Albanian friends, while Serbs have managed to wiki-capture your country (by blocking it), please help us improve entries on Serbia.
On top of the page of the article it is NOT "Kosovo OR Kosovo and Met.", please stop reverting to that. The Metohija part is the Serbian way of saying, feel free to have it in the Serbian naming part, not in the official one. And the map MUST NOT show it as a part of any country, as long as its status is not determined. READ: Kosovo's status is YET to be determined. I propose to include the following picture, as it shows where Kosova is located in the map of Europe [20]. If you keep including maps with Metohija names, and where Kosovo is shown as part of Serbia, you will only inspire people to revert it. It is a natural reaction from Albanians in Kosova, as we've had enough of that for more than a decade now. Thank you for understanding, Ilir pz 10:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The only oficel name is "Kosovo"-- Hipi Zhdripi 18:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Ilir pz, you are confusing me. You are also avoiding my questions and advices. Of course the split of Yugoslavia whould have been like the one between Sweden and Norway. I can tell you that Wikipedia is NOT for PERSONAL OPINIONS. Therfor I will not answear your question whenever I want to see a Independant Repubulic of Kosova, or if Kosovo and Methoija should stay within the Union of SCG. It woulden't change my opinions on anything if they whould be independant or if they would stay. The most important is the best for the people and to keep the culture heritage of all peoples. If you want to know a very good reason why the question about Kosovos independance should be on the hold? More areas like, western Macedonia, Sandzak and Republika Srpska could strive for independance and this whould only be more unstable for the whole region and maybe in the worst case produce more wars. My opinion is baised that education, democracy and finacial investments are the only way for Kosovo and the rest of Balkan to be a peaceful part of Europe. From now on I will answear on your talk page, since we are commited to two discussions with the same topics. Best regards Litany
Who knows how to make a link to discussion from the past to put them in archive but accessable? It would be helpful.
E vetmja zgjidhje është që Sebërt ta bojin një artike "Molo Serbia"= "Litel Serbia" dhe një artikull "Velika Serbia"=Great Serbia. Në artikullin e fundit mujin mi shti Kosovën. Po atëher gjithë historin që e kanë shkru për Sërbin e që është e lidhne për terenin e Kosovë duhet me u qujtë historia e Kosovës. Edhe historia e banorëve të këtij tereni duhet e u thirrë historia e Kosovarëve. Krejt pincat që janë të prezentunë si serb e që vijin prej Kosovës duhet me u dryshu që janë kosovar. Mos u brengosni se këtë punë kurr nuk pranojin. Pasi që ata nuk e pranojin qashtu duhet me gjetë kompromisin. Edhe gjitha artikujt që kanë të bëjnë me Kosovën duhet me qenë të ndame ashtu si janë në praktikë. Në artikullin e Serbia and Montenego mujin me përmen në pjesën e parë që Kosova ende është antare e RSFJ. Nsërsa Serbia (Malo Serbia dhe Vojvodina) dhe Mali i zi (Malcia) janë në lidhje shtetrore (nuk është kjo as Union as Federat apo Konfederat por në anglisht thuhet Bound). Nëse dëshironi ndonjëri mund ta përkëthejë përmiq tanë në botë në gjuhen angleze.
This notce has been removed several times (deliberate or not). May I just remind users that since this page is semi protected, a semi protection notice should be included on the page. I can't really think of any possible conflict surrounding that. Therefore may I request it is left in place until semi protection is removed. Thanks! Ian13/ talk 20:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
See: the serb version of Kosovo
...still unclear, as the final status of Kosovo is the subject of an ongoing dispute between government of Serbia and Kosovo's government...-- Hipi Zhdripi 22:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The use Asterion have a problem with him self. He gives to me the better argumet that I have finde in internet.
(last) 22:13, 11 April 2006 Asterion (What are you on about now? The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is dead since 1991)
Are you agree with this argument. -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
If you know better than I Engish, that is dosen t maen that you know somthing about Kosovo, but you are only trying to make Edit war in Kosovo page. -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
How is maken her war? Go and make war in Serbian seits?-- Hipi Zhdripi 22:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Somebody placed this article into "Serbia and Montenegro" category, but it should be moved to "Subdivisions of Serbia and Montenegro" category since "Serbia and Montenegro" category is for "Serbia and Montenegro" article only. Can somebody of administrators to change this category? PANONIAN (talk) 02:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a part from Hipi defensiever War. I dont wont to be a part of this Serbians Govermant Propaganda. -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
"Medieval - The arrival of Serbs, the unified Serbian Lands and the Serb Kingdom"
OK I accept the serbs are all sllavs in Balkan. Wat is meaning "serb"?
In year 2000 to is meaning War in Sllovenia, War in Croatia, War in Bosnja, War in Kosovo, War in Serbia, War in Wikipedia. The futer War Planet Earh.
Wat is meaning "serb"?
NO COMENT, -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
70% af the articel is "History" , 10% is links, 19,999999 Images.
The Realty in Kosovo is:
and
You can put, and put, you can work to destroy Wikipedia (You cant do nothing in Kosovo). If you are so sure that Kosovo is a part of Serbia, go in Kosovo. Dont tell the word how pure you are. In Sllovenia war, Croatia War, Bosnja War, Kosovo War and Serbia War you was LOSER. Hello hier is not Kosovo hier is the articel about Kosovo. Dont lose your time go and kille the peopel ther.-- Hipi Zhdripi 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Im very, very sorry about my neigborse in Balkan becose they are payeing this stiupid propaganda. They have the reale ekonomikel problems and must see how the Sebian Govermant is given mony to make the propaganda in Wikiedia. Wach ever artikel wich has to do with Balkan they hawe put ther spions and workers only to tell the Word that balkan is liven in Medieval time. This Serbiens Govermand hier in Kosovo artike is this argument. Sorry peopel Im a Wikipedian and I cant fite with that most corruptit govermant in Balkan wich are payen this propaganda. The peopel in Serbia (Belgrad are living so many peopel in the street) dont have nothing to eat, and they govermant is given mony to War Edits in Wikipedia. My argument is not so bad. Watch he histori of the eache artikel and you are going to understand wat Im meaning. Event if you dont understand my word you are going to see wat Im traying to say. It is esay.
Welcomen to the Empire of Serbia over Balkan (The image it was a maestak ther is no Vojvodina, alarm call the UDBA to kill Hipi Zhdripi) in Wikipedia eith the payet mony from the Serbian Govermant.
This is a speed War Edition from Serbian Govermant, but shit it dosent work in real life, in Prishtina is still "Skederbeg"-- Hipi Zhdripi 23:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Please can sombody translet the Word "SERB". Wat that word is meaning in english. And they call himself Serb. Go in Prishtina, meat a old man, ask him to sing a song from history and then you are going to know wat is that word in english. This word Servia from slav maket to Serbia is meaning in albanian north dialeckt .... . Please do me a fiwer go in the Rashka, Prizren and Deqani trink a Raki with a Pope ther and user this chance to asked him to go to the church arkive. -- Hipi Zhdripi 00:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Ummm... Me not understand. Me no speak as good as you. Me thinks you should learn to speak Engleziet.
Me too dont andersten my self (hehe.. ) but this you cann anderset. You asked, for it http://www.montenegro.org/origins.html-- Hipi Zhdripi 23:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
But enough of this. I honestly don't see how this guy can contribute to this Wikipedia, he obviously speaks almost no English. Also, even when he does write something in medium-clear English, it still makes no sense. I've seen he's a good contributor to Shqip Wiki, but seriously, Hipi, learn English and then come back here (if you have the need). This has gone too far. Also, I think he may be trying to tell us something about the word "Serb"... Good luck finding out what... -- serbiana - talk 00:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
...is talking very bad English. I'm sorry to object this harshly, but this is getting ridiculous, as I managed to decipher only every 3rd word and other users even less.
Check again. The history sections' 50-60%. Ofcourse this should be the most important part; Kosovo has a very, very rich history (at least richer than most parts of the world).
Perhaps things would've been better if the User stated what he wanted to say.
Sincerely. -- HolyRomanEmperor 13:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
HolyRomanEmperor je si li ti pravoslavac ili albanc? Ili, ne znas sta si? zasto si ovu ime preuzeo. Pa ljudi moj ko zna sta si, ali ti znas da treba ta svasta radis samo neka bude Velika Serbia. Ko to kaze ko to laze da Serbia je Mala, gledaj Wikipedi u engleski sta je radila. Probudi se moj sine i gledaj u Skaderbgu u Pristinu.-- Kanuni 16:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Kanuni, odnosno Hippi Zhdripi, jel' su te roditelji ucili da nije pristojno pitati nekog sta je po nacionalnosti? Ili su mozda bili zauzeti predavanjima o zlocinima Srba? Imas albansku vikipediju, knock yourself out. -- serbiana - talk 18:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Hej, Hipi zna da u Kosovo (Pec, Djakovica ...nema srbi samo "cërnagor" to nisu "shka") Crnogorci. Gledaj u Ulcinj. Ako mislite ovako i za Crnogorci kao za Albanci, treba da razmislite, u Novi Pazar "Njegosh". Pa nisu svi pravoslavci Srbi, ovi placeni ljudi iz Moske hoce da svi pravolslavci bude Srbi. U Kosovo su 7 % pravslavci to ne znaci samo za propaganda kaziti da su svih srbi bolje bi bilo da kaze se pravoslavci ili slaveni. I sa ovom je odgovoren zasto su vecina albanaca u Kosovo muslimanci i da su sve crkve u Kosovo izgubilu su narod. A sad kaze da su srbski crkve. Te ckve su Dugagjin s Crkve i pripadaju Kosovo, bilo kako je bio to je istina. Crkva ne boj se jeli su to albanci, srbi, crnogori ili turci za crkvu je vazno katolici, muslimani i orthodokski. Ako ne verujet, svaki Pop koj je interesieran moze da gleda u bizantisku arkivu. A taj arkiv je u Istambolu (Konstatinopol-polje). Ne znaci da Polje je slavenski jezik to ti je Ilirski sada se kaze albaski jeszik ili stari grcki jezik. ++ -- Kanuni 17:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Ne samo da lose govoris engleski, vec i srpski (doduse, drago mi je sto srpski govoris bolje nego engleski). Ja volim sve Albance koji ne mrze mene kao Srbina, a imam i Crnogorske krvi. Ako crkve na Kosovu nisu srpske, zasto ih palite i unistavate? Inace, for your information, za muslimansku crkvu se kaze "dzamija" ili "mosque". A ovo ostalo ne bih ni komentarisao jer nema nikakvog smisla. Hippi, stop using Kanuni as your sockpuppet. -- serbiana - talk 18:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
My Son, They burn the church becose the priste is saying tha the Church is Serbian Church. Nevermain. If your blood is "crnogorske" (montenegrin) way yo dont say that you are the montenegrin, but evry time wat you write hier is "the serbian land, serbien peopel, sebien nation, serbie, serbien, serbien..... Way? if it is the same montenegrin=serb then writte that the slavik peopel in Kosovo are montenegrins or lette the Wikipedians to know the true. No, no-no you are half serb and half russian.-- Hipi Zhdripi 19:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm half-Serb, half-Croat, for your information. Also, burning a church is a crime no matter what the priest is saying, and people who burn churches are criminals, vandals, and should be punished by the law. Sadly, in Kosovo, if Albanians are comitting a crime, there is no law to stop them, especially if they're acting against Serbs. Also, it's spelled WHY, and not WAY. And don't call me your Son, it just makes me... I don't want to say it. -- serbiana - talk 19:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
To burn a church is wrong, to burn hiself is wrong. But they hat Serbia so much that if you say i am a serb they forget themself. Way the montenegrins in kosovo dont hawe a problems. They live together with albanians arond the Peja, Prizren, Istog and Gjakova. Ther are to many maontenegrins who dont care about the Belgrad they make they bisnes. I was last year in montenegro. My Ongel live ther in Gucia. I drinket Raki with him and his neigbor (cërnagor komshia), he trait all the time to be neutral. He dont wontit to call him serb, and he says claer that he is a "Cërnagor" and Njegosh son. He accepet that the invasion of Montenegro and Serbia in albanian teritory after the albaners hawe drop the osmans from Uskup/Skopje it was not fair. And he says that he anderstand that this is going to be not acceptet from albaners, becose he know the Albanian Kanun, ist strikt and dont late plecases for treachery. The Begrad (ruso-serb) have make tthe same thing with, knin and the hercegovina. The put the Knins and herzegovina in the name of Serbia in War agains the family and the treachery. So I dont care wat you and who you are but if you hawe live in Balkan you must know "The Kanun" or how the "pravoslavci" says "Justian Codex". -- Hipi Zhdripi 22:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
This is becoming a Serbian forum. Stick to English please, no matter how bad the quality might be. Thank you, Ilir pz 22:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
http://www.elsie.de/pdf/B2002GatheringClouds.pdf
On 18 October 1912, King Peter of Serbia issued a declaration ‘To the Serbian People’, proclaiming:
“The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too. By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future. In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality.”
Wach the Milosevic declaration to the "serbian" in Kosovo befor the Balkan Wars in year 1900-2000.
Right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Kosovo&oldid=48482057. -- estavisti 22:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
We cann late the version of the Serban Goverment Propaganda (SGP) or we prasent Kosovo like Kosovo is prasentit in the UN. Kosovo is it prasent in UN from UNMIK. I dont think that for Wikipedians the Serbien law is more importen then UN Law. The only Kosovo represantiv body for Kosovo in UN is UNMIK. You cann intepret and play wich game you will, but the realy is this UNMIK-- Hipi Zhdripi 01:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, I've having trouble understanding what this user wishes to communicate. This discussion is simply pointless, as one side does not have an ability to articulate its views in English. -- estavisti 01:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
In wikipedia in this time is.
-- Hipi Zhdripi 02:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
LEARN ENGLISH, HIPI! Before you do that, I don't want to see you on this talk page. -- serbiana - talk 02:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)