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Archive o November discussion page for Korean cuisine
Does Korean Wikipedia have an article on Chili oil? Is it used enough in Korean cuisine (such as in some of the noodle soups of Chinese origin) to warrant adding its Korean name to the Chili oil article? Badagnani 06:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Is this what is called a WP:TROLL? Maybe you haven't learned yet, that is considered un-Wikipedian. Badagnani 07:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Strange, I see in Korean Chinese cuisine that jjamppong uses this ingredient. Now I'm sure you're going to tell us everything about it. Badagnani 07:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it 고추씨기름 (gochu jji gireum; chili seed oil) or 고추기름 (gochu gireum; chili oil)? Badagnani 07:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you; this is very helpful. Thus, from your knowledge, chili oil is never used in the dish called jjamppong. This is very valuable information, which will help to enrich our encyclopedia. What does BS stand for? Badagnani 04:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
-_-;; melonbarmonster, your comment is going too far. BS is not an acceptable language here, so please refrain your comment. Btw, chili oil is surely used in Korean cuisine along with Korean-Chinese cuisine like Jjamppong. I think the oil is more frequently used in Gyeongsang-do compared to the other regions. As you know, the Gyeongsang-do cuisine is famous for the most salty and spicy foods in Korea (both South Korea and North Korea). My mother made a pan-fried vegetable Korean dish for me, it was used with chili oil (고추기름). -- Appletrees 05:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see any of your previous mentions of korean dishes with chili oil before this section. But I think you and I both know where we're both coming from. At best chili oil is used as a foreign ingredient as a short-cut or novelty's sake. I'm just against people claiming themselves as experts on Korean food and starting BS reverts. This Bagagnani has gone around starting articles and making edits but the fact remains that he knows jack about Korean food and I don't appreciate him trying to force his edits with revert warring while asking if you put soy sauce on kimbap. melonbarmonster 06:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
DNFT guys!-- 142.167.83.60 ( talk) 00:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Need Korean name/hangul at Allium monanthum. Badagnani 10:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The dessert section seems to go into too-great detail about all the sub-types. This article should summarize things (so as not to grow too large), then the individual articles should go into greater detail. Badagnani 18:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
What exactly is the purpose of putting these two templates together, as they are at the end of the lead section:
{{TOCleft}}
{{clr}}
As best as I can tell, the second one overrides the first one, and the article would be exactly the same if both were removed (but obviously less confusing to an inexperienced editor). I'm probably missing something, so if someone knows, please speak up - thanks. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
In Chinese, Korean, and Japanese restaurants the non-glutinous white rice (which sticks together in a ball, unlike Western-style rice) is called "steamed rice" on menus.
See the following:
If the plain rice typically served as an accompaniment to Korean meals is "not steamed," as an editor just stated in an edit summary while removing the term "steamed," can this editor please provide a substitute term for the manner of cooking? Definitely the cooking method, the fact it is white rice need to be stated. I am aware that brown rice is gaining popularity in South Korea among health-conscious people, though I'm not sure if this is enough to warrant mention. We probably also need a Kongbap (콩밥) article, as I don't think we have one for this dish yet. Badagnani 07:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Please moderate your tone, as (have I had to mention this 20 times now, or has it only been 15?) it appears to be a WP:TROLL. Regarding the term "steamed rice," I don't believe I stated that the rice is actually steamed, though I did point out that the term enjoys massive and widespread use in CJK restaurants in English-speaking regions. In fact, in the last portion of cooking all the rice above the bottom of the pot where the remaining liquid is does steam. On cooking programs, chefs often point out that the steam, not the boiling, is really what cooks the rice properly using this method. Badagnani 08:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
http://mykoreankitchen.com/2007/05/21/how-to-make-perfect-korean-steamed-rice-step1-what-is-good-rice/ Badagnani 08:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The eminent historian of ancient Chinese technology, Joseph Needham, explains why it is called "steamed rice" in English here. This page explains it by use of a photo here. Badagnani 08:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The links I provided at the top show tens of thousands of hits for this term, and in North America the term is a widely used one ("white rice" is also used). Badagnani 08:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Congee still isn't widely known among the general population in North America, so it doesn't enter into the picture (it generally does not appear on menus of East Asian restaurants in North America). "Rice" is simply the translation of the Korean term but is not specific enough in English. In fact, in Chinese and Vietnamese, and likely in other Asian languages, there are several different monosyllabic terms for "rice," depending on whether or how it is cooked, still on the plant, etc. The English language doesn't have single words for this, thus adjectives are often needed to translate these Asian terms correctly. Badagnani 08:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
This edit is highly unsuitable because "fragrant tea" is not sufficiently specific or descriptive in English. If you mean Camellia sinensis (oolong, green, or otherwise), state this. If you mean flower teas such as Chrysanthemum tea, state this. If you mean both C. sinensis and herbal teas (but not grain teas), state this. But reverting again and again to the confusing "fragrant tea" is not helpful to our readers. Badagnani 09:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Boricha or oksusu cha do not lack an aroma, and the wording as the sentence stands is still ambiguous. Badagnani 09:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The sentence is quite clear and leaves no room for confusion. melonbarmonster 19:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It makes sense for anyone who know the English word "fragrant" and "tea". I just told you that it works fine as a descriptive term and not as a translation of hyangcha. Why is this so hard for you to accept? melonbarmonster 19:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
This edit should be reconsidered, and discussed before removal, since sundubu jjigae is a very important cuisine item in Korean food. It is not a peripheral ingredient in this dish, but an integral part of the dish. Badagnani 09:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
This massive, undiscussed blanking seems ill-advised. Please consider restoring this text and using "discussion" first. Badagnani 09:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Or something like "bold flavors, often featuring garlic, red chilis, ginger, and fermented vegetables and soybean products." Badagnani 02:22, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Then we'll simply have to source it. That's better than blanking. There are many good books in English about Korean cuisine at Google Books that doubtless mention these signature flavors. Badagnani 01:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a little bit too much hostility on this article and as the article is clearly an important one, I would respectfully ask that it be diffused. There are and have been editors on this page that clearly have knowledge on the subject, but others seem to differ and the process to resolution is not edit wars, which is what is going on here on a regular basis. If the disputes can not be diffused please read the policy on dispute resolution. In addition I want to remind the users of the WP:Civil policy.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 20:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
melonbarmonster, I being informed on cuisine and specifically Korean cuisine and tea culture understand the reasoning behind the statement, and others with the same background would say the same. The issue, however, is not the statement, but its context and reasoning as this concept is not obvious to most people. A proper source citing the reason for this is needed as most people do not know why savory dishes may go better with grain teas than fragrant teas. This can also cause confusion for other readers who may consume tea in other cultures, that do not take issue with "fragrant teas" and savory dishes. I do agree that "fragrant tea" is not an error of direct translation from Korean, as the term "fragrant" in the realm of tea is well known in the English language.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 02:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the dog meat section as it had been rewritten, and before this edit reverted to the older version, was basically fine. Badagnani 10:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the main thing Bsharvy may have objected to (for whatever reason) was the removal of the recently added gory details about how the dogs are beaten and burned before they are killed. To me, this belongs in the Dog meat article as it's a level of detail that seems excessive for this overview of the cuisine as a whole. Do others agree? Badagnani 21:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that what you say--that "very few people eat it today" (with the exception that, in your experience, no one you know eats, or admits to eating it) just isn't accurate, from the government statistics we've discussed at some length. Further, the English- and Korean-language sources we've consulted, which have been published in the past 10 years, and which include surveys of all age groups, show that most Koreans do not want it to be banned, and that the animal rights movement is small and not supported by a majority of the population. Badagnani 22:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that, at least to me, it seems that some editors, usually of a Japanese or "Japanophile" background, seem to wish to add or emphasize text that portray Koreans in a bad light, in articles across Wikipedia. I'm not one of those as I think all culinary traditions are equally interesting and worthy of detailed examination at Wikipedia. Badagnani 22:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to edit as you see fit. However, I think this earlier version was pretty good. Badagnani 23:28, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
1. "It is also made into a medicinal extract called gaeju (개주), also called gaesoju (개소주)." This sentence needs to be taken out. It's unnecessary level of detail and fatually misleading. 개소주 is a novelty product that isn't widely consumed. All the different dishes besides boshintang are far more prevalent.
2. "Historically, dog was also eaten because it was an easy source of meat in a poor agrarian society." This sentence needs to be deleted. I searched the given reference but couldn't find anything to support this statement. If any of you can find it please let me know.
3. "Roughly 2 million dogs are eaten each year in South Korea, or an average of 1.4 kg per person."
THis sentence needs to delted since a "per consumption" data is misleading. Government stats already break down the portions of the population that consume dog meat and clearly show that only half of Korean population have tried dog meat let alone consume it regularly. This is a less specific and more ambiguous statistic that implies per person consumption of dog meat in Kora. Simply false. melonbarmonster 01:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
That's your subjective and biased opinion. There are regions much larger than South Korea where squirrels and bull testicles are eaten reglarly and widely. You suffer from massive cultural blindsites and wiki articles are not for indiscriminant collection of facts, WP:IINFO. An objective article on American cuisine should not include sections on squirrel meat because it's not an important enough topic within American cuisine to deserve its own section. You're also not going to find PETA propaganda against milk, beef, chicken, veal, etc.. The only reason why this section is exists with misguided editors trying to expand it is because of the ignorant sensationalism that surrounds dog meat by non-Koreans. This is an ignorant and slightly racist bias that has no place in this article.
There's no dog meat sections under Swiss cuisine, French cuisine, Vietnamese cuisine, Chinese cuisine, etc.. All except the Swiss and French consume a lot more dog than Korea. There's also no dolphin, whale meat section with explanation of the controversy in the Japanese cuisine article.
ALL wiki-precedent support my view on this. melonbarmonster 02:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
93,600 tons per year is 256.4 tons per day, or 512,876 pounds (just over half a million pounds) per day. That is not an insignificant amount. Badagnani 01:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
"한해 개고기를 몇번 먹느냐'는 질문에는 '1~3회'라고 밝힌 응답자가 전체의 64.1%로 가장 많았고 이어". Yeah, 64.1% of Koreans have eaten only 1-3 times of dog meat. Good friend100 02:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The first reference for dogs as a source of meat in a poor, agrarian society is the Salon article:
This statement is not ambiguous to any moderately educated person: ""Roughly 2 million dogs are eaten each year in South Korea, or an average of 1.4 kg per person." and it is supported. It does not imply all Koreans eat dogs. Nothing implies or says that anywhere. These refusals to recognize the nature of general statements need to stop. If you say "Americans eat beef," it does not imply there are no American vegetarians. If you say "Koreans play badminton" it does not imply all Koreans play badminton. If you say "Koreans eat dogs" it doesn't imply all Koreans eat dogs. These are points are so obvious they do not need to be made to editors with a sincere interest in discussion.
There is no comparison to squirrel meat, possum meat and bull testicles. The arguments presented here are (again) so specious it impossible to assume good faith. While being told that roughly 50% of Koreans have tried dog meat once, we are told it is comparable to possum meat in American cuisine. Stop wasting our time. Dog meat in Korea is unique. No other country has a special breed raised for consumption. No other country faced significant opposition to getting the Olympic games and World Cup just because of its consumption of dogs. No other country was publicly admonished by the head of the FIFA in advance of the World Cup over its consumption of dogs. To my knowledge, no other culture deliberately tortures dogs to improve the flavor. Finally, there is no requirement that all articles be alike. One very good reason for a Korean cuisine to have a section on dog meat is that its editors are interested and deem it worthy, while no editor of the some other cuisine's article has done so (yet). This article has a long section on table settings. The article on Swiss cuisine does not. Complain about that. This article has a section snacks. The article on Polish cuisine does not. Go start an edit war over snacks. If you know the Chinese raise and torture dogs as a significant part of their cuisine, you are free to make that entry in the appropriate article. Anyone is free to add a section on whale to an article on Japan. That is how Wikipedia works. Bsharvy 10:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Melongbarmonster makes a good point as to the non-inclusion of other controversial food items in other cuisine articles. A prime example of this would be the consumption of horse meat in French cuisine. Although it is listed in the ingredients section, it is noted that consumption is not wide spread. Also the numbers seem very skewed on consumption levels depending on the source used. Using Googled article on dog meat are very bad research, especially on something this controversial. As such, I am in vote of completely removing the section, working out the controversy on the Dog meat article and just include the instance of dog meat in the ingredients list in the same vein as Horse meat in European cuisines. Perhaps a separate article can be made called Dog meat consumption in Korea and what ends up being a minor part of Korean cuisine (on a whole) can be hashed out there with equal measure given to both sides of the argument with hopes of some WP:NPOV for good conjecture.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 01:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Prevelence does not mean that all Koreans eat it. You keep trying to include information that negatively shows Korea. Prevalence does not mean that the article requires a lengthy discussion about how dog meat is popular in Korea. There is no counter arguments whatsoever. Good friend100 02:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, who are you addressing when you say "Your only trying to emphasize the negative aspects"? I can assure you that I do not want to do that, and have stated as much. The facts about Korean cuisine are the facts, and deserve to be described for our readers. I believe I added text and sources over the past months about the controversy and animal rights movement within South Korea. The question is one of the scale of the description in context for the article. You'll see that, just above, I stated my belief that the recent reverted version was too long and covered too many unnecessary details about the manner of killing, etc. Why are you now directing unfounded insinuations about my supposedly bad motives? That's just not a good manner of discussion. Badagnani 02:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I never said that an editor has argued that all Koreans eat dog meat. There is a problem in the article about it. As for statistics, that is relevent to dog eaters. I don't care if many people eat it. The article should stay balanced. Good friend100 02:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
That is a good point. That is why we have other sources, including South Korean government statistics and articles from the BBC. The sources state that ca. 2 million dogs are eaten per year, which would be approximately 5,480 dogs, or 80 tons per day, if each dog weighs an average of 30 pounds. The BBC gives the figure of 8,500 tons per year (or 23.2 tons per day), with 93,600 tons per year (or 256 tons per day) used annually to produce gaesoju. These are not insignificant figures and, contrary to what you say, tens or hundreds of tons a day is a significant amount, showing that Koreans do indeed eat "a lot" of dog meat," if not as much as beef, chicken, or pork. This was stated in "discussion" in early October, but apparently it was forgotten since it's been archived. Badagnani 02:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Uhh, no melonbar. Dog meat is important enough to be included. Its not important enough to be written as if all Koreans eat dog meat. Good friend100 02:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
This section was already discussed last month in what is now the October archive. There was no objection, except from melonbarmonster, who gave no support or reasons for any of what he said. When asked to be specific he replied: "I'll definitely break it down for you later. No time now." He then left for a month, until his recent abrupt and undiscussed deletion of virtually all of what was previously written and accepted. He has never shown any interest in sincere discussion or compromise. Instead, he edit wars, then leaves, and begins again a month later when many of the previous editors have left the article and the discussion has been archived. That is the strategy he is following here. Bsharvy 13:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's address the comments in Melon's last edit:
This statement is a lie:
Here is the link to the discussion. You made one significant dissenting comment, and when asked for specifics replied that you didn't have time. That was your last contribution until you deleted the entire thing and started sligning mud here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Korean_cuisine/Archive_3#Dissenting_Comment
Bsharvy 00:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
did anyone take the time to look through this article? Its about the opinion of oneperson who thinks that dog meat is great. And its quite ridiculous that this article can be used in this article, while an article (yes, written by one person as well) [8] cannot be used to support Korean arguments for Goguryeo in the Goguryeo article. I am increasingly finding that this off balance scale between pro-Korea and anti-Korea arguments is angering me very much.
In a broader sense, what anti-Korean editors like Komdori/LactoseTI do to this article, such as trying to emphasize dog meat. Or trying to stir up some crap about Chinese cabbage used in kimchi (which I could care less about) or labeling Ahn Jeung-gun, a Korean patriot, as a "terrorist". Or making ridiculous arguments at Liancourt Rocks (which, by the way, has rotted under the weight of the pro-Japanese, I'm not going even bat an eyelid towards that article). Or lobbying for emphasis on China in Goguryeo is not fair. I'm not going to just sit here and let them mess around with the article. Even if the problem is solved through dispute resolution or whatnot, the article is shattered with this NPOV policy that causes every article to have a "neutral" point of view. If Ahn is a Korean patriot, or perhaps a independence activist, how is this POV? "Patriot" is biased? Lactose suggested "terrorist" and then we had to compromise on "nationalist". How is Ahn a nationalist? Did he go around boasting that Koreans were the rulers of the world. Meh, we were picking our nose under the Japanese occupation. I would hardly call Ahn a "nationalist", much less "terrorist". I'm definitely sure Ahn went to Japan and blew up 1000 Japanese civilians with a bomb. No, he didn't. Yet, this NPOV policy and this requirement to "compromise" when there is nothing to compromise at all is just not fair. It leaves Korea-related articles at a much wierder state than before. When somebody reads that dog meat is consumed 1.4 kg on average per person, I'm sure that he/she will be sure that ALL Koreans eat dog meat. When soebody reads that Ahn was a "nationalist", I'm sure they will think that Ahn was simply someone who was racist.
The more I think of it, the angrier I get. I don't care if there is a dog meat section here. We need a dog meat section, there is nothing wrong with it. But when its cited with lame sources or with poorly written text thats ridiculous. Good friend100 03:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Editors who have a biased view towards the dog meat section in this article shouldn't be here anyways, Sennen. Good friend100 21:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Editors who have a biased view towards the dog meat section in this article shouldn't be here anyways, Sennen. Good friend100 21:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sennen, what have you been doing all this time? If somebody criticizes your native country, wouldn't you be offended? I already stated that I don't mind whether or not the dog meat section stays. But when pro-Japanese editors try to tilt the article so that it looks biased, that is a violation of WP:NPOV. I'm sure you are aware of LactoseTI intentions at Ahn Jung-geun's article. Good friend100 20:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
As per the Wikipedia policy on naming conventions of country-specific topics, all articles about specific countries should be labeled in the manner of xxx of (insert country), so in the instance of a cuisine, the article would be titled "Cuisine of Italy" or "Cuisine of France", etc as it identifies the cuisine within that country and not the cuisine outside of the country, such as the article American Chinese cuisine which identifies Chinese cuisine in America. Although the policy is clear and I have felt this for some time, I would openly offer people to come to one central area (as I will be posting this on many cuisine articles) at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink#Naming conventions of cuisine articles. I think this is a large issue and would like to get as much input as possible and as all the cuisine articles fall into this one project, but are shared by other projects I would like to see their input here as well, thanks for your time and comments.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 08:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I hear you, and agree. The Japanese "steak house" you are referring to is called teppanyaki btw, it is part of the research in my thesis.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 20:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there was consensus for this reversion. In fact, I am sure there is no consensus for it, as the version prior to reversion seemed fine with most other editors commenting here. Badagnani 10:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
1. Can people stop taking the bait from this blatant troll please? 2. Can Melonbarmonster please stop trolling wikipedia, it is making it hard for us decent editors to do our work.
thanks Sennen goroshi 13:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah no problem. Your edits show your face clearly. [9] shows what you think of Korea. I don't care if you hate Mr. Ahn. Saying that he is a terrorist (which is in fact extreme bias)and including some crap about "visiting Japan Wikipedia for the real story" shows your bias. I told you that your anti-Korean sentiment gets you in trouble. Just look in your talk page for all the battles you have done with other editors. Good friend100 ( talk) 03:46, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
"In order to see a viewpoint of Japanese, please translate Japanese Wikipedia into English." and far more importantly, that wasn't said by me - I merely reverted an edit that had removed that text. So if you don't like the text, please don't blame me, as I didn't write it, also please don't change the wording of your text, in a failed attempt to make me seem to be a biased editor. Saying someone is a terrorist is not extreme bias, it is a word that is quite suitable for someone who murdered a someone for political/nationalistic reasons. Sennen goroshi ( talk) 05:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
Archive o November discussion page for Korean cuisine
Does Korean Wikipedia have an article on Chili oil? Is it used enough in Korean cuisine (such as in some of the noodle soups of Chinese origin) to warrant adding its Korean name to the Chili oil article? Badagnani 06:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Is this what is called a WP:TROLL? Maybe you haven't learned yet, that is considered un-Wikipedian. Badagnani 07:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Strange, I see in Korean Chinese cuisine that jjamppong uses this ingredient. Now I'm sure you're going to tell us everything about it. Badagnani 07:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Is it 고추씨기름 (gochu jji gireum; chili seed oil) or 고추기름 (gochu gireum; chili oil)? Badagnani 07:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you; this is very helpful. Thus, from your knowledge, chili oil is never used in the dish called jjamppong. This is very valuable information, which will help to enrich our encyclopedia. What does BS stand for? Badagnani 04:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
-_-;; melonbarmonster, your comment is going too far. BS is not an acceptable language here, so please refrain your comment. Btw, chili oil is surely used in Korean cuisine along with Korean-Chinese cuisine like Jjamppong. I think the oil is more frequently used in Gyeongsang-do compared to the other regions. As you know, the Gyeongsang-do cuisine is famous for the most salty and spicy foods in Korea (both South Korea and North Korea). My mother made a pan-fried vegetable Korean dish for me, it was used with chili oil (고추기름). -- Appletrees 05:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see any of your previous mentions of korean dishes with chili oil before this section. But I think you and I both know where we're both coming from. At best chili oil is used as a foreign ingredient as a short-cut or novelty's sake. I'm just against people claiming themselves as experts on Korean food and starting BS reverts. This Bagagnani has gone around starting articles and making edits but the fact remains that he knows jack about Korean food and I don't appreciate him trying to force his edits with revert warring while asking if you put soy sauce on kimbap. melonbarmonster 06:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
DNFT guys!-- 142.167.83.60 ( talk) 00:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Need Korean name/hangul at Allium monanthum. Badagnani 10:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The dessert section seems to go into too-great detail about all the sub-types. This article should summarize things (so as not to grow too large), then the individual articles should go into greater detail. Badagnani 18:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
What exactly is the purpose of putting these two templates together, as they are at the end of the lead section:
{{TOCleft}}
{{clr}}
As best as I can tell, the second one overrides the first one, and the article would be exactly the same if both were removed (but obviously less confusing to an inexperienced editor). I'm probably missing something, so if someone knows, please speak up - thanks. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
In Chinese, Korean, and Japanese restaurants the non-glutinous white rice (which sticks together in a ball, unlike Western-style rice) is called "steamed rice" on menus.
See the following:
If the plain rice typically served as an accompaniment to Korean meals is "not steamed," as an editor just stated in an edit summary while removing the term "steamed," can this editor please provide a substitute term for the manner of cooking? Definitely the cooking method, the fact it is white rice need to be stated. I am aware that brown rice is gaining popularity in South Korea among health-conscious people, though I'm not sure if this is enough to warrant mention. We probably also need a Kongbap (콩밥) article, as I don't think we have one for this dish yet. Badagnani 07:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Please moderate your tone, as (have I had to mention this 20 times now, or has it only been 15?) it appears to be a WP:TROLL. Regarding the term "steamed rice," I don't believe I stated that the rice is actually steamed, though I did point out that the term enjoys massive and widespread use in CJK restaurants in English-speaking regions. In fact, in the last portion of cooking all the rice above the bottom of the pot where the remaining liquid is does steam. On cooking programs, chefs often point out that the steam, not the boiling, is really what cooks the rice properly using this method. Badagnani 08:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
http://mykoreankitchen.com/2007/05/21/how-to-make-perfect-korean-steamed-rice-step1-what-is-good-rice/ Badagnani 08:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The eminent historian of ancient Chinese technology, Joseph Needham, explains why it is called "steamed rice" in English here. This page explains it by use of a photo here. Badagnani 08:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The links I provided at the top show tens of thousands of hits for this term, and in North America the term is a widely used one ("white rice" is also used). Badagnani 08:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Congee still isn't widely known among the general population in North America, so it doesn't enter into the picture (it generally does not appear on menus of East Asian restaurants in North America). "Rice" is simply the translation of the Korean term but is not specific enough in English. In fact, in Chinese and Vietnamese, and likely in other Asian languages, there are several different monosyllabic terms for "rice," depending on whether or how it is cooked, still on the plant, etc. The English language doesn't have single words for this, thus adjectives are often needed to translate these Asian terms correctly. Badagnani 08:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
This edit is highly unsuitable because "fragrant tea" is not sufficiently specific or descriptive in English. If you mean Camellia sinensis (oolong, green, or otherwise), state this. If you mean flower teas such as Chrysanthemum tea, state this. If you mean both C. sinensis and herbal teas (but not grain teas), state this. But reverting again and again to the confusing "fragrant tea" is not helpful to our readers. Badagnani 09:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Boricha or oksusu cha do not lack an aroma, and the wording as the sentence stands is still ambiguous. Badagnani 09:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The sentence is quite clear and leaves no room for confusion. melonbarmonster 19:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It makes sense for anyone who know the English word "fragrant" and "tea". I just told you that it works fine as a descriptive term and not as a translation of hyangcha. Why is this so hard for you to accept? melonbarmonster 19:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
This edit should be reconsidered, and discussed before removal, since sundubu jjigae is a very important cuisine item in Korean food. It is not a peripheral ingredient in this dish, but an integral part of the dish. Badagnani 09:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
This massive, undiscussed blanking seems ill-advised. Please consider restoring this text and using "discussion" first. Badagnani 09:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Or something like "bold flavors, often featuring garlic, red chilis, ginger, and fermented vegetables and soybean products." Badagnani 02:22, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Then we'll simply have to source it. That's better than blanking. There are many good books in English about Korean cuisine at Google Books that doubtless mention these signature flavors. Badagnani 01:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a little bit too much hostility on this article and as the article is clearly an important one, I would respectfully ask that it be diffused. There are and have been editors on this page that clearly have knowledge on the subject, but others seem to differ and the process to resolution is not edit wars, which is what is going on here on a regular basis. If the disputes can not be diffused please read the policy on dispute resolution. In addition I want to remind the users of the WP:Civil policy.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 20:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
melonbarmonster, I being informed on cuisine and specifically Korean cuisine and tea culture understand the reasoning behind the statement, and others with the same background would say the same. The issue, however, is not the statement, but its context and reasoning as this concept is not obvious to most people. A proper source citing the reason for this is needed as most people do not know why savory dishes may go better with grain teas than fragrant teas. This can also cause confusion for other readers who may consume tea in other cultures, that do not take issue with "fragrant teas" and savory dishes. I do agree that "fragrant tea" is not an error of direct translation from Korean, as the term "fragrant" in the realm of tea is well known in the English language.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 02:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the dog meat section as it had been rewritten, and before this edit reverted to the older version, was basically fine. Badagnani 10:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the main thing Bsharvy may have objected to (for whatever reason) was the removal of the recently added gory details about how the dogs are beaten and burned before they are killed. To me, this belongs in the Dog meat article as it's a level of detail that seems excessive for this overview of the cuisine as a whole. Do others agree? Badagnani 21:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that what you say--that "very few people eat it today" (with the exception that, in your experience, no one you know eats, or admits to eating it) just isn't accurate, from the government statistics we've discussed at some length. Further, the English- and Korean-language sources we've consulted, which have been published in the past 10 years, and which include surveys of all age groups, show that most Koreans do not want it to be banned, and that the animal rights movement is small and not supported by a majority of the population. Badagnani 22:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that, at least to me, it seems that some editors, usually of a Japanese or "Japanophile" background, seem to wish to add or emphasize text that portray Koreans in a bad light, in articles across Wikipedia. I'm not one of those as I think all culinary traditions are equally interesting and worthy of detailed examination at Wikipedia. Badagnani 22:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to edit as you see fit. However, I think this earlier version was pretty good. Badagnani 23:28, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
1. "It is also made into a medicinal extract called gaeju (개주), also called gaesoju (개소주)." This sentence needs to be taken out. It's unnecessary level of detail and fatually misleading. 개소주 is a novelty product that isn't widely consumed. All the different dishes besides boshintang are far more prevalent.
2. "Historically, dog was also eaten because it was an easy source of meat in a poor agrarian society." This sentence needs to be deleted. I searched the given reference but couldn't find anything to support this statement. If any of you can find it please let me know.
3. "Roughly 2 million dogs are eaten each year in South Korea, or an average of 1.4 kg per person."
THis sentence needs to delted since a "per consumption" data is misleading. Government stats already break down the portions of the population that consume dog meat and clearly show that only half of Korean population have tried dog meat let alone consume it regularly. This is a less specific and more ambiguous statistic that implies per person consumption of dog meat in Kora. Simply false. melonbarmonster 01:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
That's your subjective and biased opinion. There are regions much larger than South Korea where squirrels and bull testicles are eaten reglarly and widely. You suffer from massive cultural blindsites and wiki articles are not for indiscriminant collection of facts, WP:IINFO. An objective article on American cuisine should not include sections on squirrel meat because it's not an important enough topic within American cuisine to deserve its own section. You're also not going to find PETA propaganda against milk, beef, chicken, veal, etc.. The only reason why this section is exists with misguided editors trying to expand it is because of the ignorant sensationalism that surrounds dog meat by non-Koreans. This is an ignorant and slightly racist bias that has no place in this article.
There's no dog meat sections under Swiss cuisine, French cuisine, Vietnamese cuisine, Chinese cuisine, etc.. All except the Swiss and French consume a lot more dog than Korea. There's also no dolphin, whale meat section with explanation of the controversy in the Japanese cuisine article.
ALL wiki-precedent support my view on this. melonbarmonster 02:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
93,600 tons per year is 256.4 tons per day, or 512,876 pounds (just over half a million pounds) per day. That is not an insignificant amount. Badagnani 01:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
"한해 개고기를 몇번 먹느냐'는 질문에는 '1~3회'라고 밝힌 응답자가 전체의 64.1%로 가장 많았고 이어". Yeah, 64.1% of Koreans have eaten only 1-3 times of dog meat. Good friend100 02:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The first reference for dogs as a source of meat in a poor, agrarian society is the Salon article:
This statement is not ambiguous to any moderately educated person: ""Roughly 2 million dogs are eaten each year in South Korea, or an average of 1.4 kg per person." and it is supported. It does not imply all Koreans eat dogs. Nothing implies or says that anywhere. These refusals to recognize the nature of general statements need to stop. If you say "Americans eat beef," it does not imply there are no American vegetarians. If you say "Koreans play badminton" it does not imply all Koreans play badminton. If you say "Koreans eat dogs" it doesn't imply all Koreans eat dogs. These are points are so obvious they do not need to be made to editors with a sincere interest in discussion.
There is no comparison to squirrel meat, possum meat and bull testicles. The arguments presented here are (again) so specious it impossible to assume good faith. While being told that roughly 50% of Koreans have tried dog meat once, we are told it is comparable to possum meat in American cuisine. Stop wasting our time. Dog meat in Korea is unique. No other country has a special breed raised for consumption. No other country faced significant opposition to getting the Olympic games and World Cup just because of its consumption of dogs. No other country was publicly admonished by the head of the FIFA in advance of the World Cup over its consumption of dogs. To my knowledge, no other culture deliberately tortures dogs to improve the flavor. Finally, there is no requirement that all articles be alike. One very good reason for a Korean cuisine to have a section on dog meat is that its editors are interested and deem it worthy, while no editor of the some other cuisine's article has done so (yet). This article has a long section on table settings. The article on Swiss cuisine does not. Complain about that. This article has a section snacks. The article on Polish cuisine does not. Go start an edit war over snacks. If you know the Chinese raise and torture dogs as a significant part of their cuisine, you are free to make that entry in the appropriate article. Anyone is free to add a section on whale to an article on Japan. That is how Wikipedia works. Bsharvy 10:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Melongbarmonster makes a good point as to the non-inclusion of other controversial food items in other cuisine articles. A prime example of this would be the consumption of horse meat in French cuisine. Although it is listed in the ingredients section, it is noted that consumption is not wide spread. Also the numbers seem very skewed on consumption levels depending on the source used. Using Googled article on dog meat are very bad research, especially on something this controversial. As such, I am in vote of completely removing the section, working out the controversy on the Dog meat article and just include the instance of dog meat in the ingredients list in the same vein as Horse meat in European cuisines. Perhaps a separate article can be made called Dog meat consumption in Korea and what ends up being a minor part of Korean cuisine (on a whole) can be hashed out there with equal measure given to both sides of the argument with hopes of some WP:NPOV for good conjecture.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 01:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Prevelence does not mean that all Koreans eat it. You keep trying to include information that negatively shows Korea. Prevalence does not mean that the article requires a lengthy discussion about how dog meat is popular in Korea. There is no counter arguments whatsoever. Good friend100 02:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, who are you addressing when you say "Your only trying to emphasize the negative aspects"? I can assure you that I do not want to do that, and have stated as much. The facts about Korean cuisine are the facts, and deserve to be described for our readers. I believe I added text and sources over the past months about the controversy and animal rights movement within South Korea. The question is one of the scale of the description in context for the article. You'll see that, just above, I stated my belief that the recent reverted version was too long and covered too many unnecessary details about the manner of killing, etc. Why are you now directing unfounded insinuations about my supposedly bad motives? That's just not a good manner of discussion. Badagnani 02:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I never said that an editor has argued that all Koreans eat dog meat. There is a problem in the article about it. As for statistics, that is relevent to dog eaters. I don't care if many people eat it. The article should stay balanced. Good friend100 02:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
That is a good point. That is why we have other sources, including South Korean government statistics and articles from the BBC. The sources state that ca. 2 million dogs are eaten per year, which would be approximately 5,480 dogs, or 80 tons per day, if each dog weighs an average of 30 pounds. The BBC gives the figure of 8,500 tons per year (or 23.2 tons per day), with 93,600 tons per year (or 256 tons per day) used annually to produce gaesoju. These are not insignificant figures and, contrary to what you say, tens or hundreds of tons a day is a significant amount, showing that Koreans do indeed eat "a lot" of dog meat," if not as much as beef, chicken, or pork. This was stated in "discussion" in early October, but apparently it was forgotten since it's been archived. Badagnani 02:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Uhh, no melonbar. Dog meat is important enough to be included. Its not important enough to be written as if all Koreans eat dog meat. Good friend100 02:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
This section was already discussed last month in what is now the October archive. There was no objection, except from melonbarmonster, who gave no support or reasons for any of what he said. When asked to be specific he replied: "I'll definitely break it down for you later. No time now." He then left for a month, until his recent abrupt and undiscussed deletion of virtually all of what was previously written and accepted. He has never shown any interest in sincere discussion or compromise. Instead, he edit wars, then leaves, and begins again a month later when many of the previous editors have left the article and the discussion has been archived. That is the strategy he is following here. Bsharvy 13:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's address the comments in Melon's last edit:
This statement is a lie:
Here is the link to the discussion. You made one significant dissenting comment, and when asked for specifics replied that you didn't have time. That was your last contribution until you deleted the entire thing and started sligning mud here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Korean_cuisine/Archive_3#Dissenting_Comment
Bsharvy 00:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
did anyone take the time to look through this article? Its about the opinion of oneperson who thinks that dog meat is great. And its quite ridiculous that this article can be used in this article, while an article (yes, written by one person as well) [8] cannot be used to support Korean arguments for Goguryeo in the Goguryeo article. I am increasingly finding that this off balance scale between pro-Korea and anti-Korea arguments is angering me very much.
In a broader sense, what anti-Korean editors like Komdori/LactoseTI do to this article, such as trying to emphasize dog meat. Or trying to stir up some crap about Chinese cabbage used in kimchi (which I could care less about) or labeling Ahn Jeung-gun, a Korean patriot, as a "terrorist". Or making ridiculous arguments at Liancourt Rocks (which, by the way, has rotted under the weight of the pro-Japanese, I'm not going even bat an eyelid towards that article). Or lobbying for emphasis on China in Goguryeo is not fair. I'm not going to just sit here and let them mess around with the article. Even if the problem is solved through dispute resolution or whatnot, the article is shattered with this NPOV policy that causes every article to have a "neutral" point of view. If Ahn is a Korean patriot, or perhaps a independence activist, how is this POV? "Patriot" is biased? Lactose suggested "terrorist" and then we had to compromise on "nationalist". How is Ahn a nationalist? Did he go around boasting that Koreans were the rulers of the world. Meh, we were picking our nose under the Japanese occupation. I would hardly call Ahn a "nationalist", much less "terrorist". I'm definitely sure Ahn went to Japan and blew up 1000 Japanese civilians with a bomb. No, he didn't. Yet, this NPOV policy and this requirement to "compromise" when there is nothing to compromise at all is just not fair. It leaves Korea-related articles at a much wierder state than before. When somebody reads that dog meat is consumed 1.4 kg on average per person, I'm sure that he/she will be sure that ALL Koreans eat dog meat. When soebody reads that Ahn was a "nationalist", I'm sure they will think that Ahn was simply someone who was racist.
The more I think of it, the angrier I get. I don't care if there is a dog meat section here. We need a dog meat section, there is nothing wrong with it. But when its cited with lame sources or with poorly written text thats ridiculous. Good friend100 03:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Editors who have a biased view towards the dog meat section in this article shouldn't be here anyways, Sennen. Good friend100 21:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Editors who have a biased view towards the dog meat section in this article shouldn't be here anyways, Sennen. Good friend100 21:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sennen, what have you been doing all this time? If somebody criticizes your native country, wouldn't you be offended? I already stated that I don't mind whether or not the dog meat section stays. But when pro-Japanese editors try to tilt the article so that it looks biased, that is a violation of WP:NPOV. I'm sure you are aware of LactoseTI intentions at Ahn Jung-geun's article. Good friend100 20:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
As per the Wikipedia policy on naming conventions of country-specific topics, all articles about specific countries should be labeled in the manner of xxx of (insert country), so in the instance of a cuisine, the article would be titled "Cuisine of Italy" or "Cuisine of France", etc as it identifies the cuisine within that country and not the cuisine outside of the country, such as the article American Chinese cuisine which identifies Chinese cuisine in America. Although the policy is clear and I have felt this for some time, I would openly offer people to come to one central area (as I will be posting this on many cuisine articles) at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink#Naming conventions of cuisine articles. I think this is a large issue and would like to get as much input as possible and as all the cuisine articles fall into this one project, but are shared by other projects I would like to see their input here as well, thanks for your time and comments.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 08:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I hear you, and agree. The Japanese "steak house" you are referring to is called teppanyaki btw, it is part of the research in my thesis.-- Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 20:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there was consensus for this reversion. In fact, I am sure there is no consensus for it, as the version prior to reversion seemed fine with most other editors commenting here. Badagnani 10:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
1. Can people stop taking the bait from this blatant troll please? 2. Can Melonbarmonster please stop trolling wikipedia, it is making it hard for us decent editors to do our work.
thanks Sennen goroshi 13:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah no problem. Your edits show your face clearly. [9] shows what you think of Korea. I don't care if you hate Mr. Ahn. Saying that he is a terrorist (which is in fact extreme bias)and including some crap about "visiting Japan Wikipedia for the real story" shows your bias. I told you that your anti-Korean sentiment gets you in trouble. Just look in your talk page for all the battles you have done with other editors. Good friend100 ( talk) 03:46, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
"In order to see a viewpoint of Japanese, please translate Japanese Wikipedia into English." and far more importantly, that wasn't said by me - I merely reverted an edit that had removed that text. So if you don't like the text, please don't blame me, as I didn't write it, also please don't change the wording of your text, in a failed attempt to make me seem to be a biased editor. Saying someone is a terrorist is not extreme bias, it is a word that is quite suitable for someone who murdered a someone for political/nationalistic reasons. Sennen goroshi ( talk) 05:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)