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Why is Gümülcine not listed in the lead? Not every town within the borders of modern Greece needs a Turkish name, but Komotini on account of its significant Turkish minority and prominent Ottoman monuments seems to warrant one. Aramgar ( talk) 15:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Fut.Perf. has made this proposal and from what is in there, the lead should suffice. In any case I'm sure this conversation is being monitored already and if needed one would jump to make adjustments. The point is to find the way ourselves. I'll let it rest for a few days though and see if there are any other reactions.Cheers. Arheos ( talk) 21:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Two assertions have been raised repeatedly in revert summaries which I believe ought to be addressed here on the talkpage: first that Gümülcine is a foreign name and second that the Greek government recognizes only a Muslim not a Turkish minority. The first concern may be easily dismissed: Turkish is the native language of 50% of the inhabitants of the city, and these inhabitants refer to the place as Gümülcine. I have added a reliable source for this information published by a scholar working at Oxford University.
The second objection, that mention of a Turkish minority in Komotini is inappropriate as the Greek government recognizes only a Muslim minority, cuts to the very heart of the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia. While it is true that the Greek government recognizes no specifically Turkish minority, objective external sources may be adduced which state that the Muslim residents of Komotini are in fact Turkish. Wikipedia is not required to respect the onomastic preference of Greece in this matter. Wikipedia's role as an encyclopedia is to describe the ethnic and linguistic composition of the city from a neutral point of view using reliable and verifiable sources. The sourced information I have added is a step toward fulfilling our goal of providing neutral, verifiable information.
I have also added a statement about the city's "Turkish-speaking minority" to the lead ( diff). Komotini's primary notability for those who are neither Greek nor Turkish is the very presence of this minority in an otherwise ethnically homogenous country. Aramgar ( talk) 23:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
After reading the discussion above, I cannot help but wonder, how did we get to the point of summarily identifying the entire Muslim minority of Komotini as Turkish? Yes, some choose to identify openly or not as such, but how do we assume that everyone feels the same? After all, we are talking about Greek citizens that participate in every context in the Komotini community? How do you decide that the minority is Turkish, when in fact we have Pomaks that do not even speak Turkish, Roma that have repeatedly expressed their discomfort at being summarily considered Turkish and oppressed within the community, and many, many others that simply are Muslim and have no connection to Turkey whatsoever today? Aramgar speaks of Greek propaganda but conveniently forgets that Turkey is the master of it, and knowingly or not, it is Turkish propaganda that he supports here. The Greek minority was systematically exterminated in Turkey after 1923, whereas the muslim minority in Greece thrived and prospered, increasing in numbers. The sources referenced are at least dubious, and it takes a lot more than an academic's opinion to collectively characterise the minority as Turkish. This is anything but neutral and verifiable information that we have here. Alfadog777 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.70.48.207 ( talk) 02:09, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Am I the only one who thinks that it is also weird that the topic of the "Turkish minority" is one of the first things that is mentioned when someone encounters the article? Like, is it normal that such a topic is mentioned in the first paragraph when referring to a city? I honestly think it is suspicious. Lmagoutas ( talk) 14:26, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
For the Ottoman monuments of Komotini, including the 16th century Yeni Camii which possesses Iznik tile decoration of the finest period, see Machiel Kiel, "Observations on the History of Northern Greece during the Turkish Rule: Historical and Architectural Description of the Turkish Monuments of Komotini and Serres, their place in the Development of Ottoman Turkish Architecture and their Present Condition" Balkan Studies 12 (Thessaloniki, 1971), pp. 415-444. Aramgar ( talk) 15:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Let me know if anyone objects to the month of semi-protection. There is a small problem with a blocked user who keeps creating new IPs to evade his block. EdJohnston ( talk) 03:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Komotini is a Greek city and as such I cannot grasp the concept of having two names at the top of the article. It's not happening in Instanbul for example, and I think that if it did, it would never be accepted. Also, I read something in the previous discussion about the Turkish population of Komotini. There is no such thing. There is a Muslim population in Komotini, that is all. Minor segments of it choose to identify themselves as Turkish, but that is not the norm or by any means, the majority. Lets try and be realistic and stop putting ethnic labels based on the religion of people. That was done in the Ottoman Empire and is nowadays not accepted as a means of distinguishing social or racial minorities. In this fashion, every Muslim within Greece should be self-identified as Turkish and vice versa, which is ridiculous. Alfadog777 ( talk) 11:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
As the article is still semiprotected 15 months later, I'd like to review this to see if the article could be unprotected now. I've contacted the protecting admin, Khoikhoi but I would also like to hear from regular editors. -- TS 10:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an old discusion about the turkish name of Komotini but there is running an edit-war.. Ggia ( talk) 20:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello. My name is Moti and I'm an editor mostly on the Hebrew Wikipedia. There is an inaccuracy in the data regarding WW2. Researches by Prof. Michael Bar-Zohar and also Yad Vashem institute, thoroughly examining Bulgarian Archives, and other records have states as follows: On March the 4th 1943 after midnight Bulgarian police had arrested 863 Jews from Komotini. They were rounded up in a deserted tobacco warehouse, called the Chelborov building. On March the 5th at 02:30 the were put on a Freight rail transport to the town Simitli in Bulgaria and from there to Dupnitsa. About 20 of them were Released because the were foreign subjects mostly Turks, Spaniens and Italians. The rest were deported on March the 19th by Ferries on the Danube from Lom in bulgaria to Vienna, then on Freight rail transport to Katowice, poland and from there to Treblinka extermination camp. Most of them were murdered on the day they arrived. Only 8 survived.-- Assayas ( talk) 16:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
The figure referenced for muslims in the city is 45% and belongs to the leftist writer from Cyprus Olga Demteriou - she came up with this figure in 2002 for her thesis...
Luckily a long overdue official census was conducted of the city in 2011 - Turkish Muslims comprise 40% of the total population of 55,812 (2011 census). So therefore I am correcting the population for the city and muslim minority figure. http://urbact.eu/fileadmin/Projects/RE_Block/outputs_media/ReBlock_baseline_study_121031.pdf
Reaper7 ( talk) 20:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
North Rhine-Westphalia population is 32% Turkish speaking, should we add it's Turkish name "Kuzey Ren-Vestfalya" in lead?? If that had been the case, it might have been relevant there. The reality is that 6.0% of the population of North Rhine-Westphalia are Turks, and (being a immigrant community now in the third generation) we do not even know how many speak Turkish as their first language. (The 32% number refers to the part of Turks in Germany living in NR-W, which is something completely different.) More to the point is that the Welsh name is given for Cardiff, the Basque name (and the French) for San Sebastián, the Sami and the Kven name for Tromsø, the Greek name (and even the Turkish and Italian, which probably is stretching it too far) for Sarandë, the Pomak name for Echinos etc. etc. We can only guess at the percentages of most of then, but the main thing is that these names have been and are today used by a significant part of the population. This follows the guidelines in WP:NAME:CITY.
rm from lead, listed in History section. It is stated in the History section that Gümülcine was the name used in Ottoman times. That info belongs there, as does also the Bulgarian name (or both in a new section about Names with the etymology added). But it does not say that Gümülcine is a name used today. That information belongs in the lead (but the Bulgarian name does not).
I have earlier removed several "alternative", but irrelevant names from the lead of other articles (Turkish from Echinos, Turkish and Italian from some Dodecanese islands, Bulgarian from Komotini), but I have also defended the use of some names when they are relevant according to WP rules. This is one such case. Regards! -- T*U ( talk) 11:21, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
I restored the turkish name for the city. I generally agree with the last comment by T*U: Gumulcine is the city' s current name in the mother tongue of an important portion of the local population . After all, Turkish is formally recognised as a minority language in Greece, taught at public, minority schools throughout Western Thrace. P.S. Ottoman Empire remained a neigbouring country in the area until 1923, 91 years ago. Routhramiotis/ Ρουθραμιώτης ( talk) 19:39, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
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@
Velko01: Your description of the historical development is not very accurate. You claim that until 1945 it was mostly populated with Bulgarian Christians and muslims
. In reality virtually all Bulgarians left the area in 1919, when Western Thrace was handed over to Greece as a result of the
Treaty of Neuilly after WWI. Apart from a short period of strong Bulgarization during the Bulgarian occupation in WWII, the population of the city has for 100 years been Greek and Turkish with a sizable Roma minority, while the Jewish minority was mostly eliminated during the Bulgarian occupation. Today, only the Greek and the Turkish names are relevant, while the Bulgarian name (official from 1913 to 1919) is of course very much relevant for the history section, where it is presented. The Bulgarian presence before 1919 is not enough reason for presenting the Bulgarian name in the very first sentence per
WP:UNDUE. See
WP:PLACE for the relevant Wikipedia guidelines. --
T*U (
talk)
15:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
This is the
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Komotini article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Why is Gümülcine not listed in the lead? Not every town within the borders of modern Greece needs a Turkish name, but Komotini on account of its significant Turkish minority and prominent Ottoman monuments seems to warrant one. Aramgar ( talk) 15:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Fut.Perf. has made this proposal and from what is in there, the lead should suffice. In any case I'm sure this conversation is being monitored already and if needed one would jump to make adjustments. The point is to find the way ourselves. I'll let it rest for a few days though and see if there are any other reactions.Cheers. Arheos ( talk) 21:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Two assertions have been raised repeatedly in revert summaries which I believe ought to be addressed here on the talkpage: first that Gümülcine is a foreign name and second that the Greek government recognizes only a Muslim not a Turkish minority. The first concern may be easily dismissed: Turkish is the native language of 50% of the inhabitants of the city, and these inhabitants refer to the place as Gümülcine. I have added a reliable source for this information published by a scholar working at Oxford University.
The second objection, that mention of a Turkish minority in Komotini is inappropriate as the Greek government recognizes only a Muslim minority, cuts to the very heart of the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia. While it is true that the Greek government recognizes no specifically Turkish minority, objective external sources may be adduced which state that the Muslim residents of Komotini are in fact Turkish. Wikipedia is not required to respect the onomastic preference of Greece in this matter. Wikipedia's role as an encyclopedia is to describe the ethnic and linguistic composition of the city from a neutral point of view using reliable and verifiable sources. The sourced information I have added is a step toward fulfilling our goal of providing neutral, verifiable information.
I have also added a statement about the city's "Turkish-speaking minority" to the lead ( diff). Komotini's primary notability for those who are neither Greek nor Turkish is the very presence of this minority in an otherwise ethnically homogenous country. Aramgar ( talk) 23:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
After reading the discussion above, I cannot help but wonder, how did we get to the point of summarily identifying the entire Muslim minority of Komotini as Turkish? Yes, some choose to identify openly or not as such, but how do we assume that everyone feels the same? After all, we are talking about Greek citizens that participate in every context in the Komotini community? How do you decide that the minority is Turkish, when in fact we have Pomaks that do not even speak Turkish, Roma that have repeatedly expressed their discomfort at being summarily considered Turkish and oppressed within the community, and many, many others that simply are Muslim and have no connection to Turkey whatsoever today? Aramgar speaks of Greek propaganda but conveniently forgets that Turkey is the master of it, and knowingly or not, it is Turkish propaganda that he supports here. The Greek minority was systematically exterminated in Turkey after 1923, whereas the muslim minority in Greece thrived and prospered, increasing in numbers. The sources referenced are at least dubious, and it takes a lot more than an academic's opinion to collectively characterise the minority as Turkish. This is anything but neutral and verifiable information that we have here. Alfadog777 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.70.48.207 ( talk) 02:09, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Am I the only one who thinks that it is also weird that the topic of the "Turkish minority" is one of the first things that is mentioned when someone encounters the article? Like, is it normal that such a topic is mentioned in the first paragraph when referring to a city? I honestly think it is suspicious. Lmagoutas ( talk) 14:26, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
For the Ottoman monuments of Komotini, including the 16th century Yeni Camii which possesses Iznik tile decoration of the finest period, see Machiel Kiel, "Observations on the History of Northern Greece during the Turkish Rule: Historical and Architectural Description of the Turkish Monuments of Komotini and Serres, their place in the Development of Ottoman Turkish Architecture and their Present Condition" Balkan Studies 12 (Thessaloniki, 1971), pp. 415-444. Aramgar ( talk) 15:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Let me know if anyone objects to the month of semi-protection. There is a small problem with a blocked user who keeps creating new IPs to evade his block. EdJohnston ( talk) 03:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Komotini is a Greek city and as such I cannot grasp the concept of having two names at the top of the article. It's not happening in Instanbul for example, and I think that if it did, it would never be accepted. Also, I read something in the previous discussion about the Turkish population of Komotini. There is no such thing. There is a Muslim population in Komotini, that is all. Minor segments of it choose to identify themselves as Turkish, but that is not the norm or by any means, the majority. Lets try and be realistic and stop putting ethnic labels based on the religion of people. That was done in the Ottoman Empire and is nowadays not accepted as a means of distinguishing social or racial minorities. In this fashion, every Muslim within Greece should be self-identified as Turkish and vice versa, which is ridiculous. Alfadog777 ( talk) 11:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
As the article is still semiprotected 15 months later, I'd like to review this to see if the article could be unprotected now. I've contacted the protecting admin, Khoikhoi but I would also like to hear from regular editors. -- TS 10:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an old discusion about the turkish name of Komotini but there is running an edit-war.. Ggia ( talk) 20:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello. My name is Moti and I'm an editor mostly on the Hebrew Wikipedia. There is an inaccuracy in the data regarding WW2. Researches by Prof. Michael Bar-Zohar and also Yad Vashem institute, thoroughly examining Bulgarian Archives, and other records have states as follows: On March the 4th 1943 after midnight Bulgarian police had arrested 863 Jews from Komotini. They were rounded up in a deserted tobacco warehouse, called the Chelborov building. On March the 5th at 02:30 the were put on a Freight rail transport to the town Simitli in Bulgaria and from there to Dupnitsa. About 20 of them were Released because the were foreign subjects mostly Turks, Spaniens and Italians. The rest were deported on March the 19th by Ferries on the Danube from Lom in bulgaria to Vienna, then on Freight rail transport to Katowice, poland and from there to Treblinka extermination camp. Most of them were murdered on the day they arrived. Only 8 survived.-- Assayas ( talk) 16:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
The figure referenced for muslims in the city is 45% and belongs to the leftist writer from Cyprus Olga Demteriou - she came up with this figure in 2002 for her thesis...
Luckily a long overdue official census was conducted of the city in 2011 - Turkish Muslims comprise 40% of the total population of 55,812 (2011 census). So therefore I am correcting the population for the city and muslim minority figure. http://urbact.eu/fileadmin/Projects/RE_Block/outputs_media/ReBlock_baseline_study_121031.pdf
Reaper7 ( talk) 20:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
North Rhine-Westphalia population is 32% Turkish speaking, should we add it's Turkish name "Kuzey Ren-Vestfalya" in lead?? If that had been the case, it might have been relevant there. The reality is that 6.0% of the population of North Rhine-Westphalia are Turks, and (being a immigrant community now in the third generation) we do not even know how many speak Turkish as their first language. (The 32% number refers to the part of Turks in Germany living in NR-W, which is something completely different.) More to the point is that the Welsh name is given for Cardiff, the Basque name (and the French) for San Sebastián, the Sami and the Kven name for Tromsø, the Greek name (and even the Turkish and Italian, which probably is stretching it too far) for Sarandë, the Pomak name for Echinos etc. etc. We can only guess at the percentages of most of then, but the main thing is that these names have been and are today used by a significant part of the population. This follows the guidelines in WP:NAME:CITY.
rm from lead, listed in History section. It is stated in the History section that Gümülcine was the name used in Ottoman times. That info belongs there, as does also the Bulgarian name (or both in a new section about Names with the etymology added). But it does not say that Gümülcine is a name used today. That information belongs in the lead (but the Bulgarian name does not).
I have earlier removed several "alternative", but irrelevant names from the lead of other articles (Turkish from Echinos, Turkish and Italian from some Dodecanese islands, Bulgarian from Komotini), but I have also defended the use of some names when they are relevant according to WP rules. This is one such case. Regards! -- T*U ( talk) 11:21, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
I restored the turkish name for the city. I generally agree with the last comment by T*U: Gumulcine is the city' s current name in the mother tongue of an important portion of the local population . After all, Turkish is formally recognised as a minority language in Greece, taught at public, minority schools throughout Western Thrace. P.S. Ottoman Empire remained a neigbouring country in the area until 1923, 91 years ago. Routhramiotis/ Ρουθραμιώτης ( talk) 19:39, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
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@
Velko01: Your description of the historical development is not very accurate. You claim that until 1945 it was mostly populated with Bulgarian Christians and muslims
. In reality virtually all Bulgarians left the area in 1919, when Western Thrace was handed over to Greece as a result of the
Treaty of Neuilly after WWI. Apart from a short period of strong Bulgarization during the Bulgarian occupation in WWII, the population of the city has for 100 years been Greek and Turkish with a sizable Roma minority, while the Jewish minority was mostly eliminated during the Bulgarian occupation. Today, only the Greek and the Turkish names are relevant, while the Bulgarian name (official from 1913 to 1919) is of course very much relevant for the history section, where it is presented. The Bulgarian presence before 1919 is not enough reason for presenting the Bulgarian name in the very first sentence per
WP:UNDUE. See
WP:PLACE for the relevant Wikipedia guidelines. --
T*U (
talk)
15:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC)