This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Why is this here? I've never heard it suggested specifically that this was the meaning of the kiss on the base of the spine. Certainly everyone from Philip the Fair on claimed it was evidence of homosexuality, but not that it was specifically a sexual rather than symbolic practice. I'm removing the link, as I think it's misleading, but if anyone has anything to say about the link, I'd be grateful for the explanation. Zabieru 03:44, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
"Christ Gilbot was born in 1876 and learnt the art of carpentry from a young age."
This seems really out of place where it is, almost like there was more information that was cut out and this was accidentally left in. Is it supposed to be there?
I'd really like to see some information about the alleged homosexual activities of the Knights Templar. From what I've read, they were probably just allegations made to discredit the order and not true, but it's still a fascinating story. I'd like to see the evidence. -- Dmerrill
I removed the references to Robinson and Baigent. They are not serious amateur historians, but conspiracy theorists. If you must work on this area, start with some serious bibliography. By the way - I love the mention of the Medieval Academy on Robinson's flap (on Amazon) - since he's elderly and non-professional he probably gets HIS membership for $10 less than I have to pay for it! MichaelTinkler
Removed really odd paragraph with inaccurate references to feudal society and to an anachronistic "separation of church and state" under Pope Gregory VII (preseumably we're talking about the Concordat of Worms?) that has nothing to do with banking.
I would certainly like to see more sources for this interpretation before all the banking stuff is kept in the article JHK
The secret meetings and rituals of the knights would eventually cause their downfall. The King of France, Philip the Fair used these rituals and meetings to his advantage to destroy the knights. The real reason for his crushing the Templars was that he felt threatened by their power and immunity. In 1307, Philip, who desperately needed funds, to support his war against England's Edward I made his move against the Knights Templar.
On October 13th, 1307, King Philip had all the Templars arrested on the grounds of heresy, since this was the only charge that would allow the seizing of their money and assets. The Templars were tortured and as a result, ridiculous confessions were given. These confessions included"
Much of what you say is not untrue -- but it's also not exactly correct, IIRC. Yes, it is generally accepted among medieval historians that Philip the Fair's persecution of the Templars was a strike against a powerful order, coupled with a chance to get rich. But some of the other assertions don't really do justice to the entire picture, instead oversimplifying the events and the time to fit an agenda that seems to pop up regularly on the templars-masons-kabbala conspiracy web.
For example, banking was carried out by Jews -- the resentment of the ability of Jews to profit from their moneylending activities was one of the reasons for anti-Jewish sentiment in the Middle ages, and expelling Jews from the land was an easy way to cancel the debts of Christians. I would like to know which "many historians" credit the Templars with the invention of Banking as we know it -- not just information from a templar-oriented website.
Secondly, although there were often property motives involved in many Inquisitions (although far fewer than in witch trials -- something very different and not necessarily related to Inquisitions), it is unrealistic to discount religious motivation. Religion (both belief and practice) was generally the primary force behind many investigations into possible heresy. unfortunately, that does not mean that secondary factors like profit did not play a large part.
Finally, what "feudal lords" (a term that is absolutely meaningless in the context used) grumbled? Give examples. Which traditional control? -- it depends on which lords you're talking about. And separation of Church and State didn't exist in the way you seem to think it did -- any separation was to the advantage of the Church -- the norm prescribed by most popes from Gelasius on was that the spiritual sword took precedence over the secular. It's bollocks to say that each lord (again, not specific) thought of himself as the next Caesar -- some kings, perhaps, some emperors, probably (although few). The article now contains too much inattributed information that really owes little to good historical method -- that method demands that history be studied with respect for the beliefs and motivations of the subjects, and NOT by looking at a set of historical circumstances through modern eyes with modern views. JHK
Is Al Aqsa octagonal, as the first or second paragraph suggests in reference to the inspiration for Templar churches and the figure on the flag? Not externally, according to my memory or in the photos I see on the Web. If octagonality is the inspiration, the referenced structure must be the Dome of the Rock, next door to Al Aqsa on the temple mount. I'll change the article to reflect this more sensible seeming theory. 168... 06:49 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The Dome of the Rock is octagonal not Alaqsa. Harry Potter 00:27 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for a super page. I personally believe in "Templar Theory," the idea the Templars are the ancient ancestors of the Freemasons. I can't prove it so I will add nothing to your fine article.
Now, with three tildies … PaulinSaudi
suggestion: put a visible border around the image and caption: (the first time i read the page, thanks to my window size, the text looked like it said "accept tithing in homosexuality")
I moved this link from the article as it seems unconnected to what the article is about. Angela
The Grand Encampment is somewhat of a sticky subject; not only are they named for the early Knights Templar organization, but I believe it has been posited that they actually descend from that organization. Nevertheless, I think the modern organization is notable enough that it rates its own article on the 'pedia separate from this one. Even if this is decided against, and the modern organization's information is incorporated into this article, I think we should wait with this link until that happens, because as of yet the link would be the only mention of the modern organization in the whole article, adding confusion. - Hephaestos 02:52, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I like Cyan's idea of me just writing a new article on the modern organization, with a link to THAT article on the old article. What do u think of that?
Justin L. Smith 02:55, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think that would be the way to go, yes. - Hephaestos 02:57, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Agreed. That would be great Justin. Would it make sense to unprotect these pages now things have calmed down? Angela 03:00, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I dont see a need to protect them now if you dont. I consider the matter solved. Justin L. Smith 03:01, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hey. The linked article discussing the relation between the Templars and modern Freemasons is, to be blunt, crackpottery: it even cites Foucault's Pendulum as a factual source. If one continues reading, it turns into paranoid conspiratorial raving about the Masonic plan for global dominance and the eradication of religion: evolution, astronomy, and physics (modern science in general, really) are all named as parts of this far-reaching Masonic/Kabbalistic/Ancient Egyptian plot. I really think this link should be removed, and perhaps replaced with a link to the article on the History of Freemasonry. -- Mirv 20:18, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The claim of Templer in America (misspelled) makes me doubt this entire added text is true and not modern fiction. Can anyone verify this? - Tεx τ urε 22:22, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I corrected some of the information regarding Masonic ties to the Knights Templar. The section referenced below was totally rewritten to be more expansive:
Some
Freemasons believe they were descended from Templars who fled to
Scotland and that the group really did have heretical beliefs. There is a
Masonic Knights Templar organization which in America and other countries is part of the
York Rite. In most jurisdictions it is open only to those who profess a belief in the Christian religion. It is unknown whether or not it has historical connections with the original Knights Templar.
I essentially rewrote the section to put the full influence of the Tempars in Masonry into context and correct some statements that were a bit off (claims of descendency).
I also added a new section regarding DeMolay and the reference to the Templars in the novel, The Da Vinci Code.
Wgfinley 02:02, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC) (Senior DeMolay)
but these accusations were in reality due to a misunderstanding of arcane rituals held behind closed doors which had their origins in the Crusaders’ bitter struggle against the Saracens. These included "denying Christ and spitting on the Cross three times", as well as "kissing other men’s behinds". These acts were intended to simulate the kind of humiliation and torture that a Crusader might be subjected to by the Saracens if captured. They were taught how to commit apostacy "with the mind only and not with the heart." As for the false accusations of head-worship and trying to syncretize Christianity with Mohammedanism, the former referred to rituals involving the alleged relics of Saint Euphemia, one of Saint Ursula's 11 maidens, Hughes de Payens and John the Baptist rather than pagan idols while the latter to the chaplains creating the term "Baphomet" through the Atbash cipher to mystify the term "Sophia" (Greek for "wisdom"), which was equated to the concept of " Logos" (Greek for "Word").
These acts were intended to simulate the kind of humiliation and torture that a Crusader might be subjected to by the Saracens if captured. They were taught how to commit apostacy "with the mind only and not with the heart." As for the false accusations of head-worship and trying to syncretize Christianity with Mohammedanism, some scholars argue that the former referred to rituals involving the alleged relics of Saint Euphemia, one of Saint Ursula's 11 maidens, Hughes de Payens and John the Baptist rather than pagan idols while the latter to the chaplains creating the term "Baphomet" through the Atbash cipher to mystify the term " Sophia" (Greek for "wisdom"), which was equated to the concept of " Logos" (Greek for "Word").
I'd really like to see some information about the alleged homosexual activities of the Knights Templar. From what I've read, they were probably just allegations made to discredit the order and not true, but it's still a fascinating story. I'd like to see the evidence. -- Dmerrill
I removed the references to Robinson and Baigent. They are not serious amateur historians, but conspiracy theorists. If you must work on this area, start with some serious bibliography. By the way - I love the mention of the Medieval Academy on Robinson's flap (on Amazon) - since he's elderly and non-professional he probably gets HIS membership for $10 less than I have to pay for it! MichaelTinkler
Removed really odd paragraph with inaccurate references to feudal society and to an anachronistic "separation of church and state" under Pope Gregory VII (preseumably we're talking about the Concordat of Worms?) that has nothing to do with banking.
I would certainly like to see more sources for this interpretation before all the banking stuff is kept in the article JHK
The secret meetings and rituals of the knights would eventually cause their downfall. The King of France, Philip the Fair used these rituals and meetings to his advantage to destroy the knights. The real reason for his crushing the Templars was that he felt threatened by their power and immunity. In 1307, Philip, who desperately needed funds, to support his war against England's Edward I made his move against the Knights Templar.
On October 13th, 1307, King Philip had all the Templars arrested on the grounds of heresy, since this was the only charge that would allow the seizing of their money and assets. The Templars were tortured and as a result, ridiculous confessions were given. These confessions included"
Much of what you say is not untrue -- but it's also not exactly correct, IIRC. Yes, it is generally accepted among medieval historians that Philip the Fair's persecution of the Templars was a strike against a powerful order, coupled with a chance to get rich. But some of the other assertions don't really do justice to the entire picture, instead oversimplifying the events and the time to fit an agenda that seems to pop up regularly on the templars-masons-kabbala conspiracy web.
For example, banking was carried out by Jews -- the resentment of the ability of Jews to profit from their moneylending activities was one of the reasons for anti-Jewish sentiment in the Middle ages, and expelling Jews from the land was an easy way to cancel the debts of Christians. I would like to know which "many historians" credit the Templars with the invention of Banking as we know it -- not just information from a templar-oriented website.
Secondly, although there were often property motives involved in many Inquisitions (although far fewer than in witch trials -- something very different and not necessarily related to Inquisitions), it is unrealistic to discount religious motivation. Religion (both belief and practice) was generally the primary force behind many investigations into possible heresy. unfortunately, that does not mean that secondary factors like profit did not play a large part.
Finally, what "feudal lords" (a term that is absolutely meaningless in the context used) grumbled? Give examples. Which traditional control? -- it depends on which lords you're talking about. And separation of Church and State didn't exist in the way you seem to think it did -- any separation was to the advantage of the Church -- the norm prescribed by most popes from Gelasius on was that the spiritual sword took precedence over the secular. It's bollocks to say that each lord (again, not specific) thought of himself as the next Caesar -- some kings, perhaps, some emperors, probably (although few). The article now contains too much inattributed information that really owes little to good historical method -- that method demands that history be studied with respect for the beliefs and motivations of the subjects, and NOT by looking at a set of historical circumstances through modern eyes with modern views. JHK
Is Al Aqsa octagonal, as the first or second paragraph suggests in reference to the inspiration for Templar churches and the figure on the flag? Not externally, according to my memory or in the photos I see on the Web. If octagonality is the inspiration, the referenced structure must be the Dome of the Rock, next door to Al Aqsa on the temple mount. I'll change the article to reflect this more sensible seeming theory. 168... 06:49 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The Dome of the Rock is octagonal not Alaqsa. Harry Potter 00:27 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for a super page. I personally believe in "Templar Theory," the idea the Templars are the ancient ancestors of the Freemasons. I can't prove it so I will add nothing to your fine article.
Now, with three tildies … PaulinSaudi
suggestion: put a visible border around the image and caption: (the first time i read the page, thanks to my window size, the text looked like it said "accept tithing in homosexuality")
I moved this link from the article as it seems unconnected to what the article is about. Angela
The Grand Encampment is somewhat of a sticky subject; not only are they named for the early Knights Templar organization, but I believe it has been posited that they actually descend from that organization. Nevertheless, I think the modern organization is notable enough that it rates its own article on the 'pedia separate from this one. Even if this is decided against, and the modern organization's information is incorporated into this article, I think we should wait with this link until that happens, because as of yet the link would be the only mention of the modern organization in the whole article, adding confusion. - Hephaestos 02:52, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I like Cyan's idea of me just writing a new article on the modern organization, with a link to THAT article on the old article. What do u think of that? Justin L. Smith 02:55, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think that would be the way to go, yes. - Hephaestos 02:57, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Agreed. That would be great Justin. Would it make sense to unprotect these pages now things have calmed down? Angela 03:00, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I dont see a need to protect them now if you dont. I consider the matter solved. Justin L. Smith 03:01, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hey. The linked article discussing the relation between the Templars and modern Freemasons is, to be blunt, crackpottery: it even cites Foucault's Pendulum as a factual source. If one continues reading, it turns into paranoid conspiratorial raving about the Masonic plan for global dominance and the eradication of religion: evolution, astronomy, and physics (modern science in general, really) are all named as parts of this far-reaching Masonic/Kabbalistic/Ancient Egyptian plot. I really think this link should be removed, and perhaps replaced with a link to the article on the History of Freemasonry. -- Mirv 20:18, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I'm a wikipedia contributor in the italian language ad I want to suggest you that both in italian and french there is a list a page devoted to list the places where Templars had one of their monastry or church: it:Sedi templari and fr:Liste des commanderies de Templiers. It would be interesting to have something similar for english speaking lands.-- 82.51.164.166 18:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC) (dommac)
Why isn't William de Beaujeu cited as Guillaume de Beaujeu? If one first is to translate names into more English-sounding, why not translate Jacques de Molay into Jack of Molay?
I suggest to use the French list of Grand Masters to correct the misspellings. Also the title "Grand Masters from 1118 to 1314" IMHO in not correct, because the order was deleted in 1312 (1314 is the death of De Molay). Marcok 11:20, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Aside from the Freemasons, I know of at least three separate modern KT organisations operating in Scotland, I think that these should be referenced. There are a number of modern KT lodges, even if their connection with the original is dubious.
The German and Hebrew editions of Wikipedia have articles on the German society founded by Christoph Hoffmann in 1861 ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempelgesellschaft; http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%98%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%28%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A2%D7%94%29). Extra-wiki sites can be found via http://clusty.com/search?query=%22Temple+Society%22++%22Christoph+Hoffmann%22 and http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22Temple+Society%22++%22Christoph+Hoffmann%22&btnG=Search (Yahoo only gives 17 results for: "Temple Society" "Christoph Hoffmann"). Could someone {I don't know enough} add a similar article in English {if one already exists I can't find it} with at least links between between it and this article. Michael {is this the accepted procedure for making comments?}
Parts of the "Heresy and pardon" section seem to be directly copied from [1] (search for "misunderstanding of arcane rituals"), but it looks like there's been some rephrasing and NPOV-ing since. The material in question should really be rewritten completely. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 20:10, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
(beginning of paragraph) While the only requirement to join Scottish Rite is to be a Mason in good standing, DeMolay does require its members to profess a belief in a 'Supreme Being' as a part of its ritual. There are DeMolays from a wide variety of both monotheistic and polytheistic faiths.
Another branch of Masonry however, York Rite, does require its members to be of Christian faith. Among the three branches of the York Rite is The Commandery of Knights Templar. (rest of paragraph)
DeMolay, like the regular Masonic (or Blue) Lodge, requires its members to profess a belief in a Supreme Being. Very broad interpretations of Supreme Being are common allowing DeMolays and Masons to come from a wide variety of both monotheistic and polytheistic faiths. Most appendant bodies of Freemasonry such as the Scottish Rite, the York Rite (including Chapter and Cryptic or Council), and the Shriners require membership in a Blue Lodge, so de facto they require such a belief in a Supreme Being.
The Commandery of Knights Templar is the third major branch of the York Rite and open only to Christians. (rest of paragraph)
In 2001, Dr. Barbara Frale found the Chinon Parchment in the Secret Vatican Archives, a document that shows that Pope Clement V secretly pardoned the Knights Templar in 1314. -- contradicts -- As he burned at the stake, Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Knights Templar, cursed King Philip and Pope Clement to meet eternal justice within the year. Pope Clement died only one month later and
Which was it? Did Clement V pardon them 3+ months later or did he die 1 month later in Nov or 1313?
Is it really accurate to say that it was significantly larger or more powerful than the Hospitallers? john k 05:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think so on the count of wealth - most reliable sources identify them as arguably the wealthiest organisation in Europe - as to the numbers, its hard to say.
A good online Catholic resource (ie, utilizing reliable primary sources instead of questionable conspiracy theorist or masonic material) on the two orders - www.newadvent.com, specifically:
Hospitallers - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07477a.htm Templar - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm
-- DonaNobisPacem 05:59, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
OK, I'm going to dispute my own response - at the time of the Templars downfall, they owned approximately 9,000 estates, while the Hospitallers owned 19,000. The Hospitallers also held a considerable amount of political influence, as is seen in the Sicilian conflicts and the whole issue with Frederick II of Germany. Although the Templars are more famous, that is due to their downfall (thanks to Philip) - more or less a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time - rather than their wealth or power. The Hospitallers were not a strict military order, in that they maintained their charitable aspect; so it is hard to compare total numbers of members; although if just looking at knights in the field, it would seem they fielded similar numbers as the Templars in most of the major battles. The fact that Saladin had both Templars and Hospitallers slaughtered after the defeat of Hattin shows he regarded both orders with hatred. I would propose the removing of the "largest and most powerful" statement to replace it with "the most notorious." DonaNobisPacem 08:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
It is said that an "Order of Sion" was found at the same time with Knights Templars in Holy Land.
Is it true ?
User:Siyac 11:17, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Their activities would more accurately be described as venture capitalists and charity providers rather than bankers in the traditional sense.
deleted text
Capitolo Otto is among the secret societies that traces a link to the Knights Templar. The society, which recruits from the Yale University campus (among other recruiting mediums), puts an emphasis on internationalism and the merger of East and West, giving central importance to the cipher 1071. Highly secretive, the order has links to European secret societies.
This points to a deleted page, it seems to be a hoax. Paul, in Saudi 04:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Why is this here? I've never heard it suggested specifically that this was the meaning of the kiss on the base of the spine. Certainly everyone from Philip the Fair on claimed it was evidence of homosexuality, but not that it was specifically a sexual rather than symbolic practice. I'm removing the link, as I think it's misleading, but if anyone has anything to say about the link, I'd be grateful for the explanation. Zabieru 03:44, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
"Christ Gilbot was born in 1876 and learnt the art of carpentry from a young age."
This seems really out of place where it is, almost like there was more information that was cut out and this was accidentally left in. Is it supposed to be there?
I'd really like to see some information about the alleged homosexual activities of the Knights Templar. From what I've read, they were probably just allegations made to discredit the order and not true, but it's still a fascinating story. I'd like to see the evidence. -- Dmerrill
I removed the references to Robinson and Baigent. They are not serious amateur historians, but conspiracy theorists. If you must work on this area, start with some serious bibliography. By the way - I love the mention of the Medieval Academy on Robinson's flap (on Amazon) - since he's elderly and non-professional he probably gets HIS membership for $10 less than I have to pay for it! MichaelTinkler
Removed really odd paragraph with inaccurate references to feudal society and to an anachronistic "separation of church and state" under Pope Gregory VII (preseumably we're talking about the Concordat of Worms?) that has nothing to do with banking.
I would certainly like to see more sources for this interpretation before all the banking stuff is kept in the article JHK
The secret meetings and rituals of the knights would eventually cause their downfall. The King of France, Philip the Fair used these rituals and meetings to his advantage to destroy the knights. The real reason for his crushing the Templars was that he felt threatened by their power and immunity. In 1307, Philip, who desperately needed funds, to support his war against England's Edward I made his move against the Knights Templar.
On October 13th, 1307, King Philip had all the Templars arrested on the grounds of heresy, since this was the only charge that would allow the seizing of their money and assets. The Templars were tortured and as a result, ridiculous confessions were given. These confessions included"
Much of what you say is not untrue -- but it's also not exactly correct, IIRC. Yes, it is generally accepted among medieval historians that Philip the Fair's persecution of the Templars was a strike against a powerful order, coupled with a chance to get rich. But some of the other assertions don't really do justice to the entire picture, instead oversimplifying the events and the time to fit an agenda that seems to pop up regularly on the templars-masons-kabbala conspiracy web.
For example, banking was carried out by Jews -- the resentment of the ability of Jews to profit from their moneylending activities was one of the reasons for anti-Jewish sentiment in the Middle ages, and expelling Jews from the land was an easy way to cancel the debts of Christians. I would like to know which "many historians" credit the Templars with the invention of Banking as we know it -- not just information from a templar-oriented website.
Secondly, although there were often property motives involved in many Inquisitions (although far fewer than in witch trials -- something very different and not necessarily related to Inquisitions), it is unrealistic to discount religious motivation. Religion (both belief and practice) was generally the primary force behind many investigations into possible heresy. unfortunately, that does not mean that secondary factors like profit did not play a large part.
Finally, what "feudal lords" (a term that is absolutely meaningless in the context used) grumbled? Give examples. Which traditional control? -- it depends on which lords you're talking about. And separation of Church and State didn't exist in the way you seem to think it did -- any separation was to the advantage of the Church -- the norm prescribed by most popes from Gelasius on was that the spiritual sword took precedence over the secular. It's bollocks to say that each lord (again, not specific) thought of himself as the next Caesar -- some kings, perhaps, some emperors, probably (although few). The article now contains too much inattributed information that really owes little to good historical method -- that method demands that history be studied with respect for the beliefs and motivations of the subjects, and NOT by looking at a set of historical circumstances through modern eyes with modern views. JHK
Is Al Aqsa octagonal, as the first or second paragraph suggests in reference to the inspiration for Templar churches and the figure on the flag? Not externally, according to my memory or in the photos I see on the Web. If octagonality is the inspiration, the referenced structure must be the Dome of the Rock, next door to Al Aqsa on the temple mount. I'll change the article to reflect this more sensible seeming theory. 168... 06:49 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The Dome of the Rock is octagonal not Alaqsa. Harry Potter 00:27 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for a super page. I personally believe in "Templar Theory," the idea the Templars are the ancient ancestors of the Freemasons. I can't prove it so I will add nothing to your fine article.
Now, with three tildies … PaulinSaudi
suggestion: put a visible border around the image and caption: (the first time i read the page, thanks to my window size, the text looked like it said "accept tithing in homosexuality")
I moved this link from the article as it seems unconnected to what the article is about. Angela
The Grand Encampment is somewhat of a sticky subject; not only are they named for the early Knights Templar organization, but I believe it has been posited that they actually descend from that organization. Nevertheless, I think the modern organization is notable enough that it rates its own article on the 'pedia separate from this one. Even if this is decided against, and the modern organization's information is incorporated into this article, I think we should wait with this link until that happens, because as of yet the link would be the only mention of the modern organization in the whole article, adding confusion. - Hephaestos 02:52, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I like Cyan's idea of me just writing a new article on the modern organization, with a link to THAT article on the old article. What do u think of that?
Justin L. Smith 02:55, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think that would be the way to go, yes. - Hephaestos 02:57, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Agreed. That would be great Justin. Would it make sense to unprotect these pages now things have calmed down? Angela 03:00, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I dont see a need to protect them now if you dont. I consider the matter solved. Justin L. Smith 03:01, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hey. The linked article discussing the relation between the Templars and modern Freemasons is, to be blunt, crackpottery: it even cites Foucault's Pendulum as a factual source. If one continues reading, it turns into paranoid conspiratorial raving about the Masonic plan for global dominance and the eradication of religion: evolution, astronomy, and physics (modern science in general, really) are all named as parts of this far-reaching Masonic/Kabbalistic/Ancient Egyptian plot. I really think this link should be removed, and perhaps replaced with a link to the article on the History of Freemasonry. -- Mirv 20:18, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The claim of Templer in America (misspelled) makes me doubt this entire added text is true and not modern fiction. Can anyone verify this? - Tεx τ urε 22:22, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I corrected some of the information regarding Masonic ties to the Knights Templar. The section referenced below was totally rewritten to be more expansive:
Some
Freemasons believe they were descended from Templars who fled to
Scotland and that the group really did have heretical beliefs. There is a
Masonic Knights Templar organization which in America and other countries is part of the
York Rite. In most jurisdictions it is open only to those who profess a belief in the Christian religion. It is unknown whether or not it has historical connections with the original Knights Templar.
I essentially rewrote the section to put the full influence of the Tempars in Masonry into context and correct some statements that were a bit off (claims of descendency).
I also added a new section regarding DeMolay and the reference to the Templars in the novel, The Da Vinci Code.
Wgfinley 02:02, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC) (Senior DeMolay)
but these accusations were in reality due to a misunderstanding of arcane rituals held behind closed doors which had their origins in the Crusaders’ bitter struggle against the Saracens. These included "denying Christ and spitting on the Cross three times", as well as "kissing other men’s behinds". These acts were intended to simulate the kind of humiliation and torture that a Crusader might be subjected to by the Saracens if captured. They were taught how to commit apostacy "with the mind only and not with the heart." As for the false accusations of head-worship and trying to syncretize Christianity with Mohammedanism, the former referred to rituals involving the alleged relics of Saint Euphemia, one of Saint Ursula's 11 maidens, Hughes de Payens and John the Baptist rather than pagan idols while the latter to the chaplains creating the term "Baphomet" through the Atbash cipher to mystify the term "Sophia" (Greek for "wisdom"), which was equated to the concept of " Logos" (Greek for "Word").
These acts were intended to simulate the kind of humiliation and torture that a Crusader might be subjected to by the Saracens if captured. They were taught how to commit apostacy "with the mind only and not with the heart." As for the false accusations of head-worship and trying to syncretize Christianity with Mohammedanism, some scholars argue that the former referred to rituals involving the alleged relics of Saint Euphemia, one of Saint Ursula's 11 maidens, Hughes de Payens and John the Baptist rather than pagan idols while the latter to the chaplains creating the term "Baphomet" through the Atbash cipher to mystify the term " Sophia" (Greek for "wisdom"), which was equated to the concept of " Logos" (Greek for "Word").
I'd really like to see some information about the alleged homosexual activities of the Knights Templar. From what I've read, they were probably just allegations made to discredit the order and not true, but it's still a fascinating story. I'd like to see the evidence. -- Dmerrill
I removed the references to Robinson and Baigent. They are not serious amateur historians, but conspiracy theorists. If you must work on this area, start with some serious bibliography. By the way - I love the mention of the Medieval Academy on Robinson's flap (on Amazon) - since he's elderly and non-professional he probably gets HIS membership for $10 less than I have to pay for it! MichaelTinkler
Removed really odd paragraph with inaccurate references to feudal society and to an anachronistic "separation of church and state" under Pope Gregory VII (preseumably we're talking about the Concordat of Worms?) that has nothing to do with banking.
I would certainly like to see more sources for this interpretation before all the banking stuff is kept in the article JHK
The secret meetings and rituals of the knights would eventually cause their downfall. The King of France, Philip the Fair used these rituals and meetings to his advantage to destroy the knights. The real reason for his crushing the Templars was that he felt threatened by their power and immunity. In 1307, Philip, who desperately needed funds, to support his war against England's Edward I made his move against the Knights Templar.
On October 13th, 1307, King Philip had all the Templars arrested on the grounds of heresy, since this was the only charge that would allow the seizing of their money and assets. The Templars were tortured and as a result, ridiculous confessions were given. These confessions included"
Much of what you say is not untrue -- but it's also not exactly correct, IIRC. Yes, it is generally accepted among medieval historians that Philip the Fair's persecution of the Templars was a strike against a powerful order, coupled with a chance to get rich. But some of the other assertions don't really do justice to the entire picture, instead oversimplifying the events and the time to fit an agenda that seems to pop up regularly on the templars-masons-kabbala conspiracy web.
For example, banking was carried out by Jews -- the resentment of the ability of Jews to profit from their moneylending activities was one of the reasons for anti-Jewish sentiment in the Middle ages, and expelling Jews from the land was an easy way to cancel the debts of Christians. I would like to know which "many historians" credit the Templars with the invention of Banking as we know it -- not just information from a templar-oriented website.
Secondly, although there were often property motives involved in many Inquisitions (although far fewer than in witch trials -- something very different and not necessarily related to Inquisitions), it is unrealistic to discount religious motivation. Religion (both belief and practice) was generally the primary force behind many investigations into possible heresy. unfortunately, that does not mean that secondary factors like profit did not play a large part.
Finally, what "feudal lords" (a term that is absolutely meaningless in the context used) grumbled? Give examples. Which traditional control? -- it depends on which lords you're talking about. And separation of Church and State didn't exist in the way you seem to think it did -- any separation was to the advantage of the Church -- the norm prescribed by most popes from Gelasius on was that the spiritual sword took precedence over the secular. It's bollocks to say that each lord (again, not specific) thought of himself as the next Caesar -- some kings, perhaps, some emperors, probably (although few). The article now contains too much inattributed information that really owes little to good historical method -- that method demands that history be studied with respect for the beliefs and motivations of the subjects, and NOT by looking at a set of historical circumstances through modern eyes with modern views. JHK
Is Al Aqsa octagonal, as the first or second paragraph suggests in reference to the inspiration for Templar churches and the figure on the flag? Not externally, according to my memory or in the photos I see on the Web. If octagonality is the inspiration, the referenced structure must be the Dome of the Rock, next door to Al Aqsa on the temple mount. I'll change the article to reflect this more sensible seeming theory. 168... 06:49 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The Dome of the Rock is octagonal not Alaqsa. Harry Potter 00:27 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for a super page. I personally believe in "Templar Theory," the idea the Templars are the ancient ancestors of the Freemasons. I can't prove it so I will add nothing to your fine article.
Now, with three tildies … PaulinSaudi
suggestion: put a visible border around the image and caption: (the first time i read the page, thanks to my window size, the text looked like it said "accept tithing in homosexuality")
I moved this link from the article as it seems unconnected to what the article is about. Angela
The Grand Encampment is somewhat of a sticky subject; not only are they named for the early Knights Templar organization, but I believe it has been posited that they actually descend from that organization. Nevertheless, I think the modern organization is notable enough that it rates its own article on the 'pedia separate from this one. Even if this is decided against, and the modern organization's information is incorporated into this article, I think we should wait with this link until that happens, because as of yet the link would be the only mention of the modern organization in the whole article, adding confusion. - Hephaestos 02:52, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I like Cyan's idea of me just writing a new article on the modern organization, with a link to THAT article on the old article. What do u think of that? Justin L. Smith 02:55, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think that would be the way to go, yes. - Hephaestos 02:57, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Agreed. That would be great Justin. Would it make sense to unprotect these pages now things have calmed down? Angela 03:00, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I dont see a need to protect them now if you dont. I consider the matter solved. Justin L. Smith 03:01, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hey. The linked article discussing the relation between the Templars and modern Freemasons is, to be blunt, crackpottery: it even cites Foucault's Pendulum as a factual source. If one continues reading, it turns into paranoid conspiratorial raving about the Masonic plan for global dominance and the eradication of religion: evolution, astronomy, and physics (modern science in general, really) are all named as parts of this far-reaching Masonic/Kabbalistic/Ancient Egyptian plot. I really think this link should be removed, and perhaps replaced with a link to the article on the History of Freemasonry. -- Mirv 20:18, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I'm a wikipedia contributor in the italian language ad I want to suggest you that both in italian and french there is a list a page devoted to list the places where Templars had one of their monastry or church: it:Sedi templari and fr:Liste des commanderies de Templiers. It would be interesting to have something similar for english speaking lands.-- 82.51.164.166 18:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC) (dommac)
Why isn't William de Beaujeu cited as Guillaume de Beaujeu? If one first is to translate names into more English-sounding, why not translate Jacques de Molay into Jack of Molay?
I suggest to use the French list of Grand Masters to correct the misspellings. Also the title "Grand Masters from 1118 to 1314" IMHO in not correct, because the order was deleted in 1312 (1314 is the death of De Molay). Marcok 11:20, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Aside from the Freemasons, I know of at least three separate modern KT organisations operating in Scotland, I think that these should be referenced. There are a number of modern KT lodges, even if their connection with the original is dubious.
The German and Hebrew editions of Wikipedia have articles on the German society founded by Christoph Hoffmann in 1861 ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempelgesellschaft; http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%98%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%28%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A2%D7%94%29). Extra-wiki sites can be found via http://clusty.com/search?query=%22Temple+Society%22++%22Christoph+Hoffmann%22 and http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22Temple+Society%22++%22Christoph+Hoffmann%22&btnG=Search (Yahoo only gives 17 results for: "Temple Society" "Christoph Hoffmann"). Could someone {I don't know enough} add a similar article in English {if one already exists I can't find it} with at least links between between it and this article. Michael {is this the accepted procedure for making comments?}
Parts of the "Heresy and pardon" section seem to be directly copied from [1] (search for "misunderstanding of arcane rituals"), but it looks like there's been some rephrasing and NPOV-ing since. The material in question should really be rewritten completely. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 20:10, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
(beginning of paragraph) While the only requirement to join Scottish Rite is to be a Mason in good standing, DeMolay does require its members to profess a belief in a 'Supreme Being' as a part of its ritual. There are DeMolays from a wide variety of both monotheistic and polytheistic faiths.
Another branch of Masonry however, York Rite, does require its members to be of Christian faith. Among the three branches of the York Rite is The Commandery of Knights Templar. (rest of paragraph)
DeMolay, like the regular Masonic (or Blue) Lodge, requires its members to profess a belief in a Supreme Being. Very broad interpretations of Supreme Being are common allowing DeMolays and Masons to come from a wide variety of both monotheistic and polytheistic faiths. Most appendant bodies of Freemasonry such as the Scottish Rite, the York Rite (including Chapter and Cryptic or Council), and the Shriners require membership in a Blue Lodge, so de facto they require such a belief in a Supreme Being.
The Commandery of Knights Templar is the third major branch of the York Rite and open only to Christians. (rest of paragraph)
In 2001, Dr. Barbara Frale found the Chinon Parchment in the Secret Vatican Archives, a document that shows that Pope Clement V secretly pardoned the Knights Templar in 1314. -- contradicts -- As he burned at the stake, Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Knights Templar, cursed King Philip and Pope Clement to meet eternal justice within the year. Pope Clement died only one month later and
Which was it? Did Clement V pardon them 3+ months later or did he die 1 month later in Nov or 1313?
Is it really accurate to say that it was significantly larger or more powerful than the Hospitallers? john k 05:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think so on the count of wealth - most reliable sources identify them as arguably the wealthiest organisation in Europe - as to the numbers, its hard to say.
A good online Catholic resource (ie, utilizing reliable primary sources instead of questionable conspiracy theorist or masonic material) on the two orders - www.newadvent.com, specifically:
Hospitallers - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07477a.htm Templar - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm
-- DonaNobisPacem 05:59, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
OK, I'm going to dispute my own response - at the time of the Templars downfall, they owned approximately 9,000 estates, while the Hospitallers owned 19,000. The Hospitallers also held a considerable amount of political influence, as is seen in the Sicilian conflicts and the whole issue with Frederick II of Germany. Although the Templars are more famous, that is due to their downfall (thanks to Philip) - more or less a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time - rather than their wealth or power. The Hospitallers were not a strict military order, in that they maintained their charitable aspect; so it is hard to compare total numbers of members; although if just looking at knights in the field, it would seem they fielded similar numbers as the Templars in most of the major battles. The fact that Saladin had both Templars and Hospitallers slaughtered after the defeat of Hattin shows he regarded both orders with hatred. I would propose the removing of the "largest and most powerful" statement to replace it with "the most notorious." DonaNobisPacem 08:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
It is said that an "Order of Sion" was found at the same time with Knights Templars in Holy Land.
Is it true ?
User:Siyac 11:17, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Their activities would more accurately be described as venture capitalists and charity providers rather than bankers in the traditional sense.
deleted text
Capitolo Otto is among the secret societies that traces a link to the Knights Templar. The society, which recruits from the Yale University campus (among other recruiting mediums), puts an emphasis on internationalism and the merger of East and West, giving central importance to the cipher 1071. Highly secretive, the order has links to European secret societies.
This points to a deleted page, it seems to be a hoax. Paul, in Saudi 04:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)