This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
What this article states about the meeting of Guillaume de Nogaret and Pope Boniface VIII does not agree with what is stated in the article about him, see: Guillaume de Nogaret. Huldra 06:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Changed wording regarding the curse of Molay upon Clement V and Philip the Fair to read "According to legend......,' as this tidbit is not historically verifiable. Perhaps it should be moved to the legend section? DonaNobisPacem 00:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The removal of the reference to the Chinon parchment kind of negates the "pardon" part of this title. However, well-researched sources (such as Malcolm Barber's "The New Knighthood") indicate that the papal process did not denounce the overall order as heretic, and therefore had no need to be pardoned (see Chinon parchment, above). Overall, I have changed the section to reflect more accurately the end result of the claims of heresy, and the church's response. And out of necessity, of course, the title had to be re-worded. As a note - I have used Barber's book as a primary source, with some reference to the Newadvent.com article.
I apologize if it is not my usual carefully written style - I hammered this off a bit faster than usual, and will try to polish it up in the next little while.
It is perhaps expedient to also consider placing the claims of heresy before the ruin section - and some of the content I've just added might be a bit more appropriate there, now that I consider that. Input? DonaNobisPacem 06:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
PS - if you feel the need to revert, feel free to do so, but please provide explanations as to WHY and how the content I'm attempting to add could be made useful. I'm a bit of a newb, so don't mind input. That said, I've also done quite a bit of boring, conventional history on the Templars, and consider myself relatively knowledgeable in the subject. DonaNobisPacem 07:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for some stylistic changes - it has helped this section flow more smoothly. DonaNobisPacem 23:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Changed the wording "quickly became prime movers in the international politics of the Crusades period" should be changed to "became embroiled in the politics of the Crusades..." They were often manipulated by royalty, not the other way around; and were often swept along by situations rather than controlling them. The fact they were heavily politicized is true; to say they were the prime movers in those politics is misleading. For a more indepth look at the politics, read "The New Knighthood" by Malcolm Barber, a conventional Templar expert. DonaNobisPacem 00:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
....section needs to be rewritten, with the following in mind:
1.) Improved grammatical structure 2.) Establish if SMOTJ is of Masonic descent, as it appears there is some dispute over this.
DonaNobisPacem 15:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Rewrote - most internet sources did indicate the SMOTJ had an origin independant from Freemasonry, but pointed out there are similarities between it and the York Rite Knights Templar order - both of which claim (or have claimed) direct descent from the original Knights Templars. A few sources also indicated Masonic/SMOTJ dual membership is not unusual.
DonaNobisPacem 06:48, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Rewrote- The origins of SMOTJ were most certainly as a split-off from the Masonic groups. See Draffen, George S. "Pour La Foy: A History of the Great Priory of Scotland." First Pub. by Dundee: George Winter and Son, 1948; repub. by Edinburgh: The Grand Lodge of Scotland, 2000.
Also see: Partner, Peter. "The Knights Templar and Their Myth." First pub. by: Oxford University press, 1981; revised edition pub. by Rochester, Vermont: Destiny Books, 1990, especially Chapter 7 "The Romantic Dream."
The SMOTJ groups are greatly concerned with gaining "recognition," and are very reluctant to admit that their origins are relatively recent and connected with the Masonic Templar groups. The dream of many in SMOTJ is to gain "Royal Patronage" and recognition as the modern incarnation of the medieval Templars, and they see their actual origins as an impediment to this quest. T.A. Bruce 24 December 2005
Thanks TA Bruce - I have little knowledge in regards to the SMOTJ and went (and should have known better than this) by what I read on the first five or so web sites I visited. Most didn't claim direct descent from the Templars, but all seemed quite adament in claiming no origin within Freemasonry (despite the fact, as I mentioned in the article, dual membership is extremely common). In case anyone is wondering what the heck I'm doing on at this hour on Christmas eve, I'm the only one up and waiting for cookies to come out of the oven.....so I have an excuse, right?....right? DonaNobisPacem 08:08, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Good compromise Loremaster - not mentioning the Masonic thing at all might stop the constant reverts. DonaNobisPacem 16:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
It's been fascinating to see how quickly and how often the partisans of various Points of View change the references in the article to the Masonic and SMOTJ versions of modern templary. The article here would be greatly improved by removal of most references to these modern groups, but their respective adherents likely won't stop changing the statements to suit their own agendas.
While I can appriciate a view from both sides of the "aisle" I am nontheless compeled to say that A devout Roman Catholic nor a staunch Freemason can give an honest unbiased opinon about the origins of the Templars, or to its proper successors. The Church (Roman Catholicism) has already had enough egg on its face for the past centuries for anyone to be able to make a reasonable assurtion that the motive behind the suppression of the Templars was for monetary gain. Its another sad moment in the churches history (amoung them the De Medici Papacy, and the Inquisition) that I am sure it (the church) has tried desperately to forget and has had to apologize for. Copying and pasting the Catholic Churches opinon on the Templar Order from the Online Catholic Encylcopedia does not help either, It seems someone is taking another persons research as gospel without making there own conclusions or research.
The Church has done nothing but make excuses for its behavior instead to owing up to its mistakes. It has tried to usurp justice even today with its "sit on hands" policy regarding petifials in the church. It has stemmied freethinkers for generations that have been seen as subversive to the true mission of Rome. Continuing to this day to sell gods grace for a price instead of offering it to the truly penitent. This is noting more than a tying up loose ends measure for those that show blind loyalty to the church. Demolay WAS executed, Clement WAS Phillips puppet and the Templars fled and ran. If anyone can show me incontravertable evidence to the contrary without it coming from a papist mouth I am all ears.
Boy I am glad I live in the States, Rome has no power here. Do I believe in the Divity of Christ? you betcha! But I do not believe that one must pay homage to a human being in order to have a personal relationship with the savior. I do not believe that one must be "Educated" in order to recieve the eucharist. Jesus offered his followers bread and fish without cleansing them (the followers), and without reservation. He offered salvation to a prostitute, and murderer, and a thief on the cross without going through some arcane and grandiose ritual.
In my opinon the Templars were a powerful order that Rome and France thought had gotten "too big for thier Britches". Trumped up charges of heresy, sodomy, and satanism (not the first time Rome did this and certainly not the last). Executed all the Knights they could find, and divided the spoils amoung Phillip, Knights of St John, and Clement. Leaving a large contingent of Templars to stay with the already excommunicated Robert the Bruce in Scotland. Regardless of where the history starts again from there is a matter of conjecture. Whether or not the Roman Catholic Church had anything to do with it cannot be denied. Unless the papacy can admit to wrong doing without trying to sugar coat the facts, this controversy will continue for decades if not hundreds of years more.
I am sorry, I do not need a red candle to tell me Jesus is with me, all I have to do is pray and read the good book to know he is with me every step of the way. "Speas Mea en Deo Est"
You mean to tell me the throne of PETER, the infallable seat of Rome "bowed to pressure" at the whims of a worldly king? Was it not enough that the Templars were the most loyal of Romes Soldiers at the time? What force or pressure could be great enough to have the Pope execute and burn at the sake, his most professional fighting unit. What motive would he have to not just simply disband the order, but kill every last Templar he could get his hands on? Allegations of heresy and sodomy were unfounded even by the churches own admission. Even if Nogaret managed to spread rumors of an alleged heresy convincing Phillip, the Order only answered to the Pope anyway, not to Phillip and certainly not to Nogaret.
Based on the track record of the Church the burden of evidence rests in my opinion for the church to definitvely prove otherwise. To me there is reasonable doubt to suspect that the charges leveled against the Templars were trumped up by an otherwise greedy king, and a jellyfish pope. In my line of work I find Greed can be a powerful motivation. It can corrupt the most sober of Judges, and the most honest of Businessmen. I don't see any reason why the Holy See or the King of France were any different. I also find it hard to believe a Church that had threatened to excommunicate Edward II of England if he did not turn over English Templar Holdings to the north, a church that would later excommunicate Henry VIII of England who was looking for a divorce. Could not have also tossed aside Phillips allegations at very little consequence imposed on the Holy See. Unless the church itself had something to gain (at least indirectly) as a result of the siezure, maybe money perhaps but we will never know for certain.
We read about history in a sterile environment, pondering the facts and not taking into account that these people who we are debating now were nonetheless human, had human flaws, vices and bad habits. I do not believe that because Clement was pope gave him any sort of exception to these flaws or vices and certainly not to Phillip. It has been generaly accepted that the charges against the Templars were indeed false. Only Clement and Phillip the Fair know for certain. Flawed as humans are were are nontheless inclined to our personal bias, people that have been raised or inclined to believe a certain way either by environment, or family will undoubetly write from thier own persepctive a perspective usually colored with thier own beliefs (the media calls it spin). That is why I believe an institution like the Roman Catholic Church and its parishoners cannont give an accurate depiction of the events surrounding the trail, torture, and execution of the Poor Knights of Christ.
I am sure if this case would ever go to a real trail a Roman Catholic, and even a Freemason would not make the jury selection. Its what makes our system in the United States so different from the tortured confessions of the middle ages. Here no MAN is holier than the law not even Saddam. "Speas Mea en Deo Est"
Gee, I thought I was talking about the subject matter. It is a talk forum right? I thought we had the opportunity for the free exchange of ideas and theories? I have given to no bad words like f---. I have made no personal attacks to any forum member, only my reasons for doubting the motives of the church, and why I believe Roman Catholics can not give an unbiased opinion on the trail of the Templars.
of Templar Scholars as being a no less than a witchhunt, unsubstantiated by confessions brought on by torture. How am I not adressing historical fact when I stated "I also find it hard to believe a Church that had threatened to excommunicate Edward II of England if he did not turn over English Templar Holdings to the north" How is this not a fact?
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
What this article states about the meeting of Guillaume de Nogaret and Pope Boniface VIII does not agree with what is stated in the article about him, see: Guillaume de Nogaret. Huldra 06:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Changed wording regarding the curse of Molay upon Clement V and Philip the Fair to read "According to legend......,' as this tidbit is not historically verifiable. Perhaps it should be moved to the legend section? DonaNobisPacem 00:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The removal of the reference to the Chinon parchment kind of negates the "pardon" part of this title. However, well-researched sources (such as Malcolm Barber's "The New Knighthood") indicate that the papal process did not denounce the overall order as heretic, and therefore had no need to be pardoned (see Chinon parchment, above). Overall, I have changed the section to reflect more accurately the end result of the claims of heresy, and the church's response. And out of necessity, of course, the title had to be re-worded. As a note - I have used Barber's book as a primary source, with some reference to the Newadvent.com article.
I apologize if it is not my usual carefully written style - I hammered this off a bit faster than usual, and will try to polish it up in the next little while.
It is perhaps expedient to also consider placing the claims of heresy before the ruin section - and some of the content I've just added might be a bit more appropriate there, now that I consider that. Input? DonaNobisPacem 06:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
PS - if you feel the need to revert, feel free to do so, but please provide explanations as to WHY and how the content I'm attempting to add could be made useful. I'm a bit of a newb, so don't mind input. That said, I've also done quite a bit of boring, conventional history on the Templars, and consider myself relatively knowledgeable in the subject. DonaNobisPacem 07:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for some stylistic changes - it has helped this section flow more smoothly. DonaNobisPacem 23:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Changed the wording "quickly became prime movers in the international politics of the Crusades period" should be changed to "became embroiled in the politics of the Crusades..." They were often manipulated by royalty, not the other way around; and were often swept along by situations rather than controlling them. The fact they were heavily politicized is true; to say they were the prime movers in those politics is misleading. For a more indepth look at the politics, read "The New Knighthood" by Malcolm Barber, a conventional Templar expert. DonaNobisPacem 00:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
....section needs to be rewritten, with the following in mind:
1.) Improved grammatical structure 2.) Establish if SMOTJ is of Masonic descent, as it appears there is some dispute over this.
DonaNobisPacem 15:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Rewrote - most internet sources did indicate the SMOTJ had an origin independant from Freemasonry, but pointed out there are similarities between it and the York Rite Knights Templar order - both of which claim (or have claimed) direct descent from the original Knights Templars. A few sources also indicated Masonic/SMOTJ dual membership is not unusual.
DonaNobisPacem 06:48, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Rewrote- The origins of SMOTJ were most certainly as a split-off from the Masonic groups. See Draffen, George S. "Pour La Foy: A History of the Great Priory of Scotland." First Pub. by Dundee: George Winter and Son, 1948; repub. by Edinburgh: The Grand Lodge of Scotland, 2000.
Also see: Partner, Peter. "The Knights Templar and Their Myth." First pub. by: Oxford University press, 1981; revised edition pub. by Rochester, Vermont: Destiny Books, 1990, especially Chapter 7 "The Romantic Dream."
The SMOTJ groups are greatly concerned with gaining "recognition," and are very reluctant to admit that their origins are relatively recent and connected with the Masonic Templar groups. The dream of many in SMOTJ is to gain "Royal Patronage" and recognition as the modern incarnation of the medieval Templars, and they see their actual origins as an impediment to this quest. T.A. Bruce 24 December 2005
Thanks TA Bruce - I have little knowledge in regards to the SMOTJ and went (and should have known better than this) by what I read on the first five or so web sites I visited. Most didn't claim direct descent from the Templars, but all seemed quite adament in claiming no origin within Freemasonry (despite the fact, as I mentioned in the article, dual membership is extremely common). In case anyone is wondering what the heck I'm doing on at this hour on Christmas eve, I'm the only one up and waiting for cookies to come out of the oven.....so I have an excuse, right?....right? DonaNobisPacem 08:08, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Good compromise Loremaster - not mentioning the Masonic thing at all might stop the constant reverts. DonaNobisPacem 16:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
It's been fascinating to see how quickly and how often the partisans of various Points of View change the references in the article to the Masonic and SMOTJ versions of modern templary. The article here would be greatly improved by removal of most references to these modern groups, but their respective adherents likely won't stop changing the statements to suit their own agendas.
While I can appriciate a view from both sides of the "aisle" I am nontheless compeled to say that A devout Roman Catholic nor a staunch Freemason can give an honest unbiased opinon about the origins of the Templars, or to its proper successors. The Church (Roman Catholicism) has already had enough egg on its face for the past centuries for anyone to be able to make a reasonable assurtion that the motive behind the suppression of the Templars was for monetary gain. Its another sad moment in the churches history (amoung them the De Medici Papacy, and the Inquisition) that I am sure it (the church) has tried desperately to forget and has had to apologize for. Copying and pasting the Catholic Churches opinon on the Templar Order from the Online Catholic Encylcopedia does not help either, It seems someone is taking another persons research as gospel without making there own conclusions or research.
The Church has done nothing but make excuses for its behavior instead to owing up to its mistakes. It has tried to usurp justice even today with its "sit on hands" policy regarding petifials in the church. It has stemmied freethinkers for generations that have been seen as subversive to the true mission of Rome. Continuing to this day to sell gods grace for a price instead of offering it to the truly penitent. This is noting more than a tying up loose ends measure for those that show blind loyalty to the church. Demolay WAS executed, Clement WAS Phillips puppet and the Templars fled and ran. If anyone can show me incontravertable evidence to the contrary without it coming from a papist mouth I am all ears.
Boy I am glad I live in the States, Rome has no power here. Do I believe in the Divity of Christ? you betcha! But I do not believe that one must pay homage to a human being in order to have a personal relationship with the savior. I do not believe that one must be "Educated" in order to recieve the eucharist. Jesus offered his followers bread and fish without cleansing them (the followers), and without reservation. He offered salvation to a prostitute, and murderer, and a thief on the cross without going through some arcane and grandiose ritual.
In my opinon the Templars were a powerful order that Rome and France thought had gotten "too big for thier Britches". Trumped up charges of heresy, sodomy, and satanism (not the first time Rome did this and certainly not the last). Executed all the Knights they could find, and divided the spoils amoung Phillip, Knights of St John, and Clement. Leaving a large contingent of Templars to stay with the already excommunicated Robert the Bruce in Scotland. Regardless of where the history starts again from there is a matter of conjecture. Whether or not the Roman Catholic Church had anything to do with it cannot be denied. Unless the papacy can admit to wrong doing without trying to sugar coat the facts, this controversy will continue for decades if not hundreds of years more.
I am sorry, I do not need a red candle to tell me Jesus is with me, all I have to do is pray and read the good book to know he is with me every step of the way. "Speas Mea en Deo Est"
You mean to tell me the throne of PETER, the infallable seat of Rome "bowed to pressure" at the whims of a worldly king? Was it not enough that the Templars were the most loyal of Romes Soldiers at the time? What force or pressure could be great enough to have the Pope execute and burn at the sake, his most professional fighting unit. What motive would he have to not just simply disband the order, but kill every last Templar he could get his hands on? Allegations of heresy and sodomy were unfounded even by the churches own admission. Even if Nogaret managed to spread rumors of an alleged heresy convincing Phillip, the Order only answered to the Pope anyway, not to Phillip and certainly not to Nogaret.
Based on the track record of the Church the burden of evidence rests in my opinion for the church to definitvely prove otherwise. To me there is reasonable doubt to suspect that the charges leveled against the Templars were trumped up by an otherwise greedy king, and a jellyfish pope. In my line of work I find Greed can be a powerful motivation. It can corrupt the most sober of Judges, and the most honest of Businessmen. I don't see any reason why the Holy See or the King of France were any different. I also find it hard to believe a Church that had threatened to excommunicate Edward II of England if he did not turn over English Templar Holdings to the north, a church that would later excommunicate Henry VIII of England who was looking for a divorce. Could not have also tossed aside Phillips allegations at very little consequence imposed on the Holy See. Unless the church itself had something to gain (at least indirectly) as a result of the siezure, maybe money perhaps but we will never know for certain.
We read about history in a sterile environment, pondering the facts and not taking into account that these people who we are debating now were nonetheless human, had human flaws, vices and bad habits. I do not believe that because Clement was pope gave him any sort of exception to these flaws or vices and certainly not to Phillip. It has been generaly accepted that the charges against the Templars were indeed false. Only Clement and Phillip the Fair know for certain. Flawed as humans are were are nontheless inclined to our personal bias, people that have been raised or inclined to believe a certain way either by environment, or family will undoubetly write from thier own persepctive a perspective usually colored with thier own beliefs (the media calls it spin). That is why I believe an institution like the Roman Catholic Church and its parishoners cannont give an accurate depiction of the events surrounding the trail, torture, and execution of the Poor Knights of Christ.
I am sure if this case would ever go to a real trail a Roman Catholic, and even a Freemason would not make the jury selection. Its what makes our system in the United States so different from the tortured confessions of the middle ages. Here no MAN is holier than the law not even Saddam. "Speas Mea en Deo Est"
Gee, I thought I was talking about the subject matter. It is a talk forum right? I thought we had the opportunity for the free exchange of ideas and theories? I have given to no bad words like f---. I have made no personal attacks to any forum member, only my reasons for doubting the motives of the church, and why I believe Roman Catholics can not give an unbiased opinion on the trail of the Templars.
of Templar Scholars as being a no less than a witchhunt, unsubstantiated by confessions brought on by torture. How am I not adressing historical fact when I stated "I also find it hard to believe a Church that had threatened to excommunicate Edward II of England if he did not turn over English Templar Holdings to the north" How is this not a fact?