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It seems that a while ago the following information from the Biography section of the article was removed:
Kirtanananda was born Keith Gordon Ham on September 6, 1937, in Peekskill, New York. The son of a Southern Baptist minister, Ham imbibed his father's missionary spirit and attempted to convert classmates to his family's faith. Despite an acute case of poliomyelitis which he contracted around his 17th birthday, he graduated with honors from Peekskill, New York, high school in 1955. In high school and college he excelled at debate.
Ham received a Bachelor of Arts in History from Maryville College in Maryville, Tennessee on May 20, 1959 and graduated magna cum laude, first in his class of 117. He then received a Woodrow Wilson fellowship to study American history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he remained for three years. There he met an undergraduate English major from Mobile, Alabama, who became his lifelong friend and lover, Howard Morton Wheeler (1940-1989). [1] The two resigned from the university on February 3, 1961 and left Chapel Hill after being threatened with an investigation regarding an alleged sex scandal.
Keith and Howard moved to New York City where they lived as hippies. Keith also promoted LSD use and became an LSD guru. For some time he worked as a reviewer of unemployment claims. Keith enrolled at Columbia University (1961-64) where he received a Waddell fellowship to study religious history with Whitney Cross, but he quit academic life when he and Howard travelled to India during October 1965 in search of a guru. Unsuccessful in their quest, they returned to New York after six months. [2]
In June 1966, after returning from India, Keith met the Bengali Gaudiya-Vaishnava guru A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada...
Geneisner ( talk) 10:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Not only does the documentary film by
Jacob Young say these things, but also
this article from
The Villager, Volume 77, Number 7, by Tien-Shun Lee dated July 18-24, 2007, which says, "ISKCON excommunicated
Kirtanananda Swami in 1986 after the guru was charged with child molestation, conspiracy to murder and racketeering. But after serving eight years in federal prison for racketeering, the guru let bygones be bygones and invited ISKCON devotees into his building as paying guests." Right there is a secondary source. In the book [http://www.amazon.com/AFTER-ABSOLUTE-Adventures-Backwoods-Buddha/dp/0595239943 After the Absolute: Real Life Adventures with a Backwoods Buddha] (aka "The Inner Teachings of
Richard Rose"
[5]) ( 2002 .
ISBN
0-595-23994-3. {{
cite book}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)) by David Gold, in
Chapter 16, on page 243, it says, "I was aware of Keith Ham's long-standing homosexual relationship with Cheryl's husband,
Howard Wheeler, and stories of child molestings at the (page 244) commune were not uncommon. It came as no surprise that Ham's twisted mind would choose Wheeler's young son (Devin Wheeler) as the object of his perversion." On page 247, it goes on to say, "We found out later that after Devin was whisked away from the commune that day, he was taken to a Krishna compound in Mexico where he remained until Cheryl Wheeler gave up her efforts to be awarded custody. Then he was brought back to
New Vrindaban where he again became Keith Ham's--Swami Kirtanananda's--constant companion." Page 248: "As a footnote to this case, twelve years later when Ham was indicted on federal racketeering charges the indictment also accused Ham of kidnapping Devin Wheeler to prevent the authorities from taking Wheeler into custody and thereby discovering Ham's sexual relations with the boy. During his testimony, Ham admitted receiving a phone call warning him that the authorities were coming to pick up the child, but the United States Attorney who was cross-examining Ham never asked him who had made the call or provided the information."
Chapter 17, which starts on page 249, goes into the details regarding Steve Bryant accusing Kirtanananda of being a homosexual, among other things. On page 361, in the
Epilogue, it says, "Keith Ham - 'Kirtanananda Swami' - was tried and convicted of racketeering charges stemming from a variety of offenses, including the murder of Steve Bryant, the kidnapping of Devin Wheeler, and the multi-million dollar begging operation he orchestrated from New Vrindaban. His conviction was overturned on appeal, however, and in April 1996, he was re-tried. Mister Rose and I were subpoenaed as witnesses." On page 362, it says, "At Keith Ham's retrial Drescher (Tirtha das) was a witness for the prosecution. His testimony was so precise and devastating that Ham's lawyers threw in the towel, and Ham changed his plea to guilty. Keith Ham is now doing time in a federal pen." These quotes, and others from the book, can also be found by using the "search in this book" function for the exact wording on
Google Books. These things are also mentioned and corroborated in
Jacob Young's 1996 documentary film Holy Cow Swami.
Geneisner (
talk)
13:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I still don't see how the documentary film produced through WNPB-TV ( West Virginia Public Broadcasting) and the WVEBA (West Virginia Educational Broadcasting Authority) is not a good source when it directly quotes court testimony, numerous interviews, TV appearances as well as newspaper clippings. There's no reason this is not a good source, and the controversy is mentioned and corroborated elsewhere too. This is not about homosexuality, really, it is about the covering up of illegal activity, and the censorship of this material on Wikipedia. I think this is a damn shame, and I think this possible censorship matter should be discussed on a Wikipedia complaint board where other people can weigh in on this issue. Geneisner ( talk) 14:19, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
For the record, as relating to these issues, here are some of the major quotes from Kirtanananda Swami and others that can be seen on Jacob Young's documentary film Holy Cow Swami (1996, WNPB-TV), as well as an overall appraisal of the documentary itself:
Part 1 - The documentary starts out with an introduction and a view of Prabhupada's Palace of Gold. The main characters are shown, including Kirtanananda, his attorney, Alan Dershowitz (who later helped defend O. J. Simpson), as well as the prosecuting attorney William Kolibash.
Kirtanananda says, "My name is Kirtanananda Swami Bhaktipada. Today, I have an electronic monitoring device (to) make sure I don't go anywhere, because of my convictions and racketeering trial." A little later, while discussing some of the poor living conditions of many in his community, Kirtanananda says, "Food, clothing, shelter, these things are not very important. Some people call it poverty, some people call it inhuman. We like it."
A history of New Vrindaban and the Hare Krishna movement follows. Many old images and film clips are shown.
Kirtanananda discusses the reasons for the power and importance of the guru by saying, "The guru is accepted as the representative of God. If he's not, he's not guru." He then basically discusses the importance of himself as guru.
Of the early years, Kirtanananda says, "I first met Hayagriva, Howard Wheeler, when I was a student at the University of North Carolina. We were living in an apartment on Mott Street. We were young hippies, so to speak. Mott Street is just two streets from Bowery, and one day he was walking on Houston Street, toward Bowery, and as he crossed Bowery he saw this Indian Holy Man who said, 'I've just opened a storefront just around the corner on Second Avenue here, and I'm holding classes... would you please come.'" "We listened to Prabhupada, what he had to say, and it was very powerful. Here, obviously, was a real guru." "Swami had his apartment just in the back of the storefront, on the second floor, and I asked him if I could stay in the temple, the storefront, overnight. In that way, I became the first so-called devotee, as it were." "This was 1966."
Early clips of the Hare Krishna movement are shown, including old pictures of Kirtanananda with Prabhupada in New York City. The focus then shifts to the early history of New Vrindaban, a farming community started by Kirtanananda and Hayagriva in the hills of West Virginia. Clips and images of the early years are shown, as well as stories of early hardships and eventual successes. The death of Prabhupada is discussed, and Ravindra Svarupa Dasa talks about the succession crisis that ensues, and about the GBC attempting to reign in the deviating Initiating Gurus. Svarupa goes on to discuss Kirtanananda's "Interfaith era" at New Vrindaban, and how this, among other things, basically led to Kirtanananda's expulsion (and his community's expulsion) from ISKCON in 1987.
Ravindra Svarupa Dasa says, "As time went on he (Kirtanananda) began deviating more and more from the basic practices of Krishna Consciousness... more and more Kirtanananda was taking the theology and practices of the group not only in a Christian direction, but in a Millenarian style of Christianity. He began to put on the robes of a Franciscan, he began to adopt Christian liturgical practices, bring in organs, well none of these things are practices and philosophy of Krishna Consciousness."
Kirtanananda says, "I did a little... market research. I had some devotees question people on the street and show them pictures, 'What does this remind you of?' The dhoti, the Indian dress, and most people would say something like, 'a kook. A cult.' Practically no one said a devotee of God. I asked people what kind of dress would remind you of spiritual life?... And almost invariably they said some kind of robe like Jesus wore, or like the monks wear."
Legal charges are listed as being filed against the Swami and his group relating to allegations of conspiracy to murder, among other things. Kirtanananda says, "I was accused of arson, and acquitted. Now again, we're accused of so many things."
Part 2 - The screen says, "March 11, 1991 - The Swami's Racketeering trial begins."
Kirtanananda says, "I was not charged with sexual molestation, or anything, yet the first two days of testimony were all about sexual molestation."
George Exoo says, "Witness number seven, the young Chaitanya. Chaitanya had reported in the trial... that he had been abused over time by the Swami, that he had a sexual involvement over time with the Swami."
The screen then shows a court transcript from the trial, which says the following:
George Exoo says, "The Swami would make regular trips down to the gurukula and select a boy for special favors, shall we say. With the understanding being sexual. In the time that I was there, Bhaktipada always had a personal servant... There were several of them... They were about 18 years old and blond."
Thomas McGurrin, a former devotee, says, "With his boys, his servants, there would be public displays of affection that, to anyone who wasn't completely blinded by the devotion that they had for the Swami... it was so obvious that the man was being..." (word inaudible to my ears).
The screen then says:
More allegations of impropriety are discussed in relation to the New Vrindaban community. Then, there's the part that shows the mother of a boy who claimed to have been molested by a teacher or someone at the gurukula school appearing on Larry King Live, the popular TV show, and she (Susan Hebel) said that she went to Kirtanananda about the abuses and was told, "You're just a stupid woman... this doesn't go on in my school, and I don't want to hear about it." (Quote from Susan Hebel's appearance on Larry King Live as shown in the documentary). She also says, "My son was molested from the time he was seven until the time he was nine and a half, and it was completely swept under the rug..."
Kirtanananda says, "There were a number of rumors of child abuse in the school, which I tired to check out... I asked the boy, and he denied it. He denied it!" Kirtanananda continues, "The teacher, whose name was Sri Galima, he was charged, but the government dropped the case." Kirtanananda also says, "I never saw any child abuse. The committee did not find any child abuse. No adult was ever convicted of molesting a child in our school, or anywhere else in our community."
William A. Kolibash, the prosecuting attorney, says, "When Mr. Bryant (Steve Bryant) came out with some of his publications, one of those allegations was the allegation of sexual molestation... So, something had to be done with Mr. Bryant, so under our theory, the prosecution, the motive for Bryant's murder was to silence him, to stop this information flow about the sexual molestation that was going on, and about the Swami actively involved in that molestation. So, it was an established motive for the Bryant murder."
A local news clip shows scenes from the trial, a quote from Steve Bryant's mother (Helga Bryant), and describes Kirtanananda as a "Baptist minister's son." Pictures of the accused "trigger man", Thomas Drescher (Tirtha das), are also shown.
Kirtanananda says, "I can honestly say, I do not know who killed Steve Bryant. There were a number of people who had motives. Sulocana (Bryant) was a rather strange person... he did not have love, really. Nor did he understand the higher principles of Krishna Consciousness, which have to do with cooperation..."
Excerpts and interviews with Steve Bryant's parents follow. Quotes from some of Bryant's writings appear on the screen, including one which says, "... the Swami has been caught numerous times erotically embracing a young boy known as Dharmaraja..." and "... the Swami has followers who will kill for him, which is why few victims will testify against him..."
Tirtha das says, "The final authority to kill Sulocana (Bryant) could only come from one person. For my own satisfaction, I had to hear Kirtanananda himself say the words. I asked him if he felt it best for Sulocana to be killed, and his direct response was, 'Yes, that would be best.'"
Bryant's father then explains how Tirtha das shot his son through the window of his van out in California.
Tirtha das says, "I was given a rather gruesome task to perform. Had I not been given authorization personally from Kirtanananda, I would not have been in California to eliminate Sulocana (Bryant)."
Kirtanananda says, "I can honestly say, I do not know who killed Steve Bryant."
A taped phone conversation between Randall Gorby and Tirtha das is played. In it, Tirtha das can be heard talking about getting money from Kirtanananda. The taped phone conversation was made by the West Virginia State Police with Gorby's permission. Gorby's house exploded due to a gas leak soon after. Also, Gorby was later found dead in his truck, which authorities say was suicide.
The fraudulent fundraising charges are then discussed. Millions of dollars are said to have been collected through questionable means. Dennis Gorrick (Dharmatma) is mentioned, and the prosecutor, William Kolibash says, "He was sentenced to several years in jail."
The murder of Charles St. Denis is then discussed. Tirtha das talks about this in some detail, and Kirtanananda discusses this as well.
Tirtha das says that he asked Kirtanananda, "Did you authorize us (Tirtha and Dan Reid 'Daruka') to kill him (Charles St. Denis)? Do you wish for me to be involved as an active participant? He (Kirtanananda) got up, and walked toward a window. He... said... 'because of his offenses, he has to die.'"
Kirtanananda says, "How could I encourage or condone the killing of a human being? This is preposterous."
Part 3 - Tirtha das goes into more detail about the killing of Charles St. Denis in part three, and claims that Kirtanananda asked him, "Did you dispose of the body properly?", to which he claims to have responded, "No one is ever going to find that guy."
A number of improperly disposed of bodies are found at New Vrindaban, and local news clips from that time are shown.
Kirtanananda says, "What difference does it matter what you do to a dead body? A dead body, as far as we're concerned is another piece of earth... we put them in the ground and forget about them. We don't see any reason to mark them."
Tirtha das says, "St. Denis was telling people that Kirtanananda was having sexual relations with some of the Mexican workers. He was saying, 'Kirtanananda is fooling around with the Mexican boys', saying, 'He used to be homosexual, he's up to his old tricks again.' It was because there was truth to his allegations that he had to be silenced."
Kirtanananda says, "Whom the Lord wants to kill, no one can save, and whom the Lord wants to save, no one can kill."
Kirtanananda says, "When I first came to New Vrindaban in 1966, I came with Howard Wheeler. We, together, founded the community."
Kirtanananda then discusses the charges relating to the alleged kidnapping of Howard Wheeler's son (aka "Dharmaraj"). The documentary explains that the child was supposedly at New Vrindaban, in the care of Kirtanananda, when the child's mother showed up in Moundsville, West Virginia, attempting to get custody of the child. The child was then sent to his father in Mexico, and the mother didn't get to see him. The prosecutor, William Kolibash, claims this was a possible attempt to cover up the sexual molestation of the Wheeler child.
Kirtanananda says, "He was like a son to me. As far as anything improper, this question, of course, was put to him in the court. And he denied, very vehemently, that there ever was anything improper."
The accusations of Insurance Fraud and Racketeering are then discussed. The total control of the community by Kirtanananda Swami is also discussed.
According to the documentary, "The verdict: The Swami is found guilty by a jury of conspiracy in the murder of Chuck St. Denis, the jury hangs and a mistrial is declared on the charge of conspiracy to murder Steve Bryant, the Swami is found guilty in the kidnapping of Devin Wheeler, found guilty of fraudulent fundraising and insurance fraud, and also found guilty of three counts of racketeering. The Swami is sentenced to 30 years in federal prison."
A news report from the time shows this and lists some of the charges. Kirtanananda is shown with reporters, who say that he is under house arrest, and that "he came up with the $250,000 bond and is being given a limited form of freedom."
Kirtanananda says, "Our appeal is being handled by Alan Dershowitz."
Alan Dershowitz, who later famously helped defend O. J. Simpson, is shown discussing and denouncing each of the charges in detail.
Alan Dershowitz says, "If any prosecutor dared to say the things that this prosecutor said about this religion in the context of another quote 'more mainstream' religion, he'd be fired." "When I first heard about this case and read the transcript, it was clear to me that this prosecution, even if the facts were identical, could not and would not have been brought against a mainstream religion." "The risk of religious bigotry having pervaded this case was just too great, so my interest in the case was primarily as a First Amendment lawyer, as a civil libertarian, as someone who cares deeply about preservations of religious freedom."
Alan Dershowitz also says, "The homosexuality part of the case really is a witchcraft trial of modern times." "Devon (Wheeler) denied that he was ever homosexually molested."
Nathan Dershowitz, Alan's brother, who is also a lawyer, says, "One witness was a very strange witness, who said he saw Devon tickled, and even saw him tickled in the crotch area. That is converted into homosexuality."
Alan Dershowitz says, "The evidence was underwhelming. If every American father and mother who has tickled his child, or her child, is to be charged with sexual molesting we would have real serious problems in this society."
Nathan Dershowitz says, "That's the kind of thing that came in. The rest of it was introduced, I think, just to prejudice the jury."
Kirtanananda says, "To be persecuted for one's beliefs is not a bad thing. That puts us in very good company. Afterall, Socrates was made to drink the hemlock cup, reportedly on a charge of child molestation."
According to the documentary, nearly a year later, the court case is overturned and the federal prosecutor, William Kolibash, is fired by the Department of Justice on the same day. The next day, Kolibash holds his final press conference as a U.S. Attorney and says, "The day ended and I'm driving home in a rain storm, late last night, and I hear this thump, thump, thump, and I have a flat tire." The documentary then says, "It was later determined that flat tire was the result of a bullet hole."
On the screen, it says, "The appeal result from the U.S. Court of Appeals: Swami challenged the admission of evidence of child molestation and homosexual conduct under federal rules of evidence 403. Rule 403 provides that admissible evidence may be excluded if its value is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice. The judges accept that the implications of child molestation and homosexuality unfairly prejudiced the defendant. Because they concluded that the court abused its discretion in admitting this evidence, they set aside the convictions on all counts and returned the case to court for a new trial."
Kirtanananda is shown leaving house arrest and saying, "I'm a free man. I'm out. I guess I'll go to New Vrindaban first."
The words on the screen say, "New Vrindaban - August 17, 1993"
Images of Kirtanananda back at New Vrindaban are shown. He is shown taking his dog with him almost everywhere he goes, even in the temple.
The court will retry Kirtanananda on 5 charges (1) STEPHEN BRYANT MURDER, 2) CHARLES ST. DENNIS MURDER, 3) DEVON WHEELER KIDNAPPING, 4) MAIL FRAUD: FUNDRAISING, 5) MAIL FRAUD: ALLSTATE INSURANCE 1, 2 ).
Kirtanananda is shown at "Silent Mountain". Silent Mountain was his rustic retreat in the West Virginia hills, a place he went in order to get away from things for a while. The documentary indicates that he is still involved in the management of New Vrindaban in some ways at this point, but then goes on to say that this soon changes after the "Winnebago Incident".
"The Winnebago Incident" is discussed.
Kirtanananda says, "Well, I did go to the world congress on religion."
The documentary indicates it was held in Chicago, 1993, and a picture of the winnebago vehicle is shown. The documentary says, "A devotee named Steve Travor accompanied the Swami to Chicago."
Kirtanananda says, "I think he went along to help drive."
The documentary continues, "In Chicago, Swami sent Steve to the airport to pick up a Malaysian boy who was flying in from one of the Swami's overseas temples."
Tirtha das says, "They were returning, I believe from Chicago, in a travel trailer, a winnebago, and the driver, somehow the curtain opened in the rear where the Swami was, and he was in bed with this young Malaysian boy."
Damodar das (Allen White), listed as a senior devotee, says, "Steve Travor just went to a couple of the community members and said something to them, and then they said something to other people, and that's what brought about this meeting with Bhaktipada and some of the community leaders. About eight of the senior members of the community approached him and asked him if he was experiencing any spiritual difficulties. At that time, he said that, indeed, he acted at times in such a way not befitting his position as guru."
Garga Rsi das (David Waterman), listed as a senior devotee, says, "About six or seven of the leaders of the community, myself included, did talk to Bhaktipada. He came to us and said, 'I'm having problems. I feel like a general who's been wounded in the battlefield.'"
Tirtha das says, "The authorities at the community, the community elders confronted the Swami with it, and he admitted it. He admitted he had been doing homosexual activities. So many different people had seen something or had noticed something. He was molesting the children in our community. It was a recurring theme that, it dogged him for years."
Damodar das says, "He himself admitted that he was not actually fit to be the spiritual leader of the community anymore. The overwhelming majority of the devotees here no longer accepted him as the spiritual figurehead."
Garga Rsi das says, "At that point we saw that Bhaktipada, in our minds, didn't really want to admit things, and perhaps he was in this denial that he didn't really want to get out of, and because of that the leaders lost the faith they had in Bhaktipada. That was definitely a turning point, and from that things have evolved to the point where Bhaktipada was asked to leave the community. Many of the devout followers who stuck with him all that time were either asked to leave or naturally left."
The documentary says, "One year later, the government offered the Swami a plea bargain. If he would accept a 5 to 7 year sentence, they would stop their efforts to seize the assets of New Vrindaban community. Swami refused. Tom Drescher (Tirtha das) was outraged."
Tirtha das says, "The best course of action was for him to admit some guilt and take the plea bargain offered. That also would've relieved the community from its legal burden, and he chose not to do that. So, once again, it underscores the fact he didn't care about the community. He was only interested in his own self-aggrandizement."
A picture of a newspaper is shown saying, "New Vrindaban Pleads No Contest In Fraud Case", and the documentary says, "they paid a $100,000 fine, and the community is subject to additional fines up to 21 million dollars."
The screen then says, "Swami's Second Racketeering Trial Begins April 16, 1996."
The documentary indicated that five years after the first trial, the Swami is back on trial for the same charges in the same court room, and then says, "But in this trial there is a crucial difference. Tom Drescher (Tirtha das) agreed to testify against the Swami. Prior to this, all he said was (quote from an older news clip), 'I never murdered anybody.'"
Tirtha das goes on to say, "The Swami's belligerent attitude to the devotees, he forced the situation, and I had to respond in kind. I was left with no choice." "In the trial, they were not prepared for my involvement. At the conclusion of my testimony, the Swami was literally crushed."
The documentary says, "Since he agreed to testify against the Swami, Tom Drescher (Tirtha das) has survived two attempts on his life."
Tirtha das says, "I was risking my life, and I still am in terms of my situation, by stepping forward as I have, and that's my lot."
A picture of the front page of The Charleston Gazette is shown that says, "Swami Enters Guilty Plea".
The documentary says, "After the testimony of Tom Drescher (Tirtha das), the Swami's attorneys stopped the trial by offering a plea bargain. The Swami pleaded guilty to the first count of racketeering, which included charges of the two murders, fraudulent fundraising, and insurance fraud. But still, he maintained until the end that he never authorized the killing of a human being. He returned to Silent Mountain to await sentence. He faces up to 20 years in prison." These things can be confirmed by the court records 1, 2.
The rest, as they say, is history.
All of the above quotes are from Jacob Young's documentary film Holy Cow Swami (1996, WNPB-TV). Those quotes are in there, and you can watch Kirtinananda, and others, speak these words on film for yourself. If anyone wants to check these quotes out to make sure that they are indeed correct, be sure to watch the [http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Cow-Swami-Kirtinananda-Bhaktipada/dp/B000A7Y18U documentary].
Geneisner ( talk) 19:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
References
Suggest to move to Keith Gordon Ham, since this person is not really a practicing Vaisnava, and is really not in a position to use the name. He is not using this name lately, so if you do not object I suggest moving it asap, Keith Ham is the name used in the court records, so could be the right name too. Wikid as© 13:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm aware of some swamis changing the passport names in Iskcon and other maths. I am not sure it is an argument. Henry, is it Kritanananda Svami in the passport? Wikid as© 21:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I added additional signatures because after posting the note I edited it several times. I thought I was supposed to sign each time after editing.
Regarding the deleted sections referenced by the documentary "Holy Cow! Swami" directed by Gordon Jacob, I believe these sections should be returned to the article because this video was originally broadcast as a Public Television documentary by the West Virginia Educational Broadcasting Authority in 1996. Only later was it reproduced as a commercial video disc. Does not Wikipedia recognize the scholarship needed in order to produce a documentary on public television? Are public television documentaries legitimate sources or not?
And sections related to Kirtanananda Swami as homosexual should be replaced, because this is the reason he was asked to leave the New Vrindaban Community after the Winnebago Incident of September 1993, after which he lost most of his followers and was forced to retire to Silent Mountain. This is also documented in "Holy Cow! Swami."
And why was the section about his move to India deleted? This was referenced by the "Brijabasi Spirit," the Online Journal of the New Vrindaban Community? If articles about ISKCON contain references from "ISKCON Communications Journal," why should not an article about the founder of New Vrindaban contain references from the Journal of the New Vrindaban Community?
I am not an expert Wikipedia editor. But if my arguments are sound, I request another editor please make these changes.
Henry Doktorski ( talk) 13:10, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Court Records inclusion:
Self published books or a personal dairy:
Inclusion of the tv documentary:
I have started the discussion here and tagged the article disputed until consensus is reached. Please comment if you wish folks, including Henry himself. I would appreciate if expert in BLPs made comments in order to get the consensus that actually reflects the guideline and the policy. Editors who want to add material to the article are welcomed and are strongly suggested to list the sources there as well to get a comprehesive view from the experts. I hope you can cooperate and follow on based on the consensus. I have also removed some claim that does not seem to based on facts, we shold be honest and know that many svamis do that -- Sivarama Swami, Radhanath Swami, etc on the number of their books, but you really need to have some evidence for such notes or the claims before adding material. Again the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. WP:V (in this case it is Henry) and I will be delighted if such sources are found, I will treat it as non-contentious issue. Wikid as© 03:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Here's the NYT story. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/25/us/swami-bhaktipada-ex-hare-krishna-leader-dies-at-74.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Nbauman ( talk) 04:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC).
Dear Geneiser, why are you bent upon exposing a particular "Swami" on Wikipedia? The lengthy article is unhelpful as those who may know about K Swami need not read it on Wikipedia. And ISKCON does not lose its standing just because of the falldown (if any) of one person. I admit I do not know about personal details and activities of K Swami, but Wikipedia is not the place. So Ive deleted some sections. - Polytope4d ( talk) 15:01, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
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It seems that a while ago the following information from the Biography section of the article was removed:
Kirtanananda was born Keith Gordon Ham on September 6, 1937, in Peekskill, New York. The son of a Southern Baptist minister, Ham imbibed his father's missionary spirit and attempted to convert classmates to his family's faith. Despite an acute case of poliomyelitis which he contracted around his 17th birthday, he graduated with honors from Peekskill, New York, high school in 1955. In high school and college he excelled at debate.
Ham received a Bachelor of Arts in History from Maryville College in Maryville, Tennessee on May 20, 1959 and graduated magna cum laude, first in his class of 117. He then received a Woodrow Wilson fellowship to study American history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he remained for three years. There he met an undergraduate English major from Mobile, Alabama, who became his lifelong friend and lover, Howard Morton Wheeler (1940-1989). [1] The two resigned from the university on February 3, 1961 and left Chapel Hill after being threatened with an investigation regarding an alleged sex scandal.
Keith and Howard moved to New York City where they lived as hippies. Keith also promoted LSD use and became an LSD guru. For some time he worked as a reviewer of unemployment claims. Keith enrolled at Columbia University (1961-64) where he received a Waddell fellowship to study religious history with Whitney Cross, but he quit academic life when he and Howard travelled to India during October 1965 in search of a guru. Unsuccessful in their quest, they returned to New York after six months. [2]
In June 1966, after returning from India, Keith met the Bengali Gaudiya-Vaishnava guru A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada...
Geneisner ( talk) 10:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Not only does the documentary film by
Jacob Young say these things, but also
this article from
The Villager, Volume 77, Number 7, by Tien-Shun Lee dated July 18-24, 2007, which says, "ISKCON excommunicated
Kirtanananda Swami in 1986 after the guru was charged with child molestation, conspiracy to murder and racketeering. But after serving eight years in federal prison for racketeering, the guru let bygones be bygones and invited ISKCON devotees into his building as paying guests." Right there is a secondary source. In the book [http://www.amazon.com/AFTER-ABSOLUTE-Adventures-Backwoods-Buddha/dp/0595239943 After the Absolute: Real Life Adventures with a Backwoods Buddha] (aka "The Inner Teachings of
Richard Rose"
[5]) ( 2002 .
ISBN
0-595-23994-3. {{
cite book}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)) by David Gold, in
Chapter 16, on page 243, it says, "I was aware of Keith Ham's long-standing homosexual relationship with Cheryl's husband,
Howard Wheeler, and stories of child molestings at the (page 244) commune were not uncommon. It came as no surprise that Ham's twisted mind would choose Wheeler's young son (Devin Wheeler) as the object of his perversion." On page 247, it goes on to say, "We found out later that after Devin was whisked away from the commune that day, he was taken to a Krishna compound in Mexico where he remained until Cheryl Wheeler gave up her efforts to be awarded custody. Then he was brought back to
New Vrindaban where he again became Keith Ham's--Swami Kirtanananda's--constant companion." Page 248: "As a footnote to this case, twelve years later when Ham was indicted on federal racketeering charges the indictment also accused Ham of kidnapping Devin Wheeler to prevent the authorities from taking Wheeler into custody and thereby discovering Ham's sexual relations with the boy. During his testimony, Ham admitted receiving a phone call warning him that the authorities were coming to pick up the child, but the United States Attorney who was cross-examining Ham never asked him who had made the call or provided the information."
Chapter 17, which starts on page 249, goes into the details regarding Steve Bryant accusing Kirtanananda of being a homosexual, among other things. On page 361, in the
Epilogue, it says, "Keith Ham - 'Kirtanananda Swami' - was tried and convicted of racketeering charges stemming from a variety of offenses, including the murder of Steve Bryant, the kidnapping of Devin Wheeler, and the multi-million dollar begging operation he orchestrated from New Vrindaban. His conviction was overturned on appeal, however, and in April 1996, he was re-tried. Mister Rose and I were subpoenaed as witnesses." On page 362, it says, "At Keith Ham's retrial Drescher (Tirtha das) was a witness for the prosecution. His testimony was so precise and devastating that Ham's lawyers threw in the towel, and Ham changed his plea to guilty. Keith Ham is now doing time in a federal pen." These quotes, and others from the book, can also be found by using the "search in this book" function for the exact wording on
Google Books. These things are also mentioned and corroborated in
Jacob Young's 1996 documentary film Holy Cow Swami.
Geneisner (
talk)
13:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I still don't see how the documentary film produced through WNPB-TV ( West Virginia Public Broadcasting) and the WVEBA (West Virginia Educational Broadcasting Authority) is not a good source when it directly quotes court testimony, numerous interviews, TV appearances as well as newspaper clippings. There's no reason this is not a good source, and the controversy is mentioned and corroborated elsewhere too. This is not about homosexuality, really, it is about the covering up of illegal activity, and the censorship of this material on Wikipedia. I think this is a damn shame, and I think this possible censorship matter should be discussed on a Wikipedia complaint board where other people can weigh in on this issue. Geneisner ( talk) 14:19, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
For the record, as relating to these issues, here are some of the major quotes from Kirtanananda Swami and others that can be seen on Jacob Young's documentary film Holy Cow Swami (1996, WNPB-TV), as well as an overall appraisal of the documentary itself:
Part 1 - The documentary starts out with an introduction and a view of Prabhupada's Palace of Gold. The main characters are shown, including Kirtanananda, his attorney, Alan Dershowitz (who later helped defend O. J. Simpson), as well as the prosecuting attorney William Kolibash.
Kirtanananda says, "My name is Kirtanananda Swami Bhaktipada. Today, I have an electronic monitoring device (to) make sure I don't go anywhere, because of my convictions and racketeering trial." A little later, while discussing some of the poor living conditions of many in his community, Kirtanananda says, "Food, clothing, shelter, these things are not very important. Some people call it poverty, some people call it inhuman. We like it."
A history of New Vrindaban and the Hare Krishna movement follows. Many old images and film clips are shown.
Kirtanananda discusses the reasons for the power and importance of the guru by saying, "The guru is accepted as the representative of God. If he's not, he's not guru." He then basically discusses the importance of himself as guru.
Of the early years, Kirtanananda says, "I first met Hayagriva, Howard Wheeler, when I was a student at the University of North Carolina. We were living in an apartment on Mott Street. We were young hippies, so to speak. Mott Street is just two streets from Bowery, and one day he was walking on Houston Street, toward Bowery, and as he crossed Bowery he saw this Indian Holy Man who said, 'I've just opened a storefront just around the corner on Second Avenue here, and I'm holding classes... would you please come.'" "We listened to Prabhupada, what he had to say, and it was very powerful. Here, obviously, was a real guru." "Swami had his apartment just in the back of the storefront, on the second floor, and I asked him if I could stay in the temple, the storefront, overnight. In that way, I became the first so-called devotee, as it were." "This was 1966."
Early clips of the Hare Krishna movement are shown, including old pictures of Kirtanananda with Prabhupada in New York City. The focus then shifts to the early history of New Vrindaban, a farming community started by Kirtanananda and Hayagriva in the hills of West Virginia. Clips and images of the early years are shown, as well as stories of early hardships and eventual successes. The death of Prabhupada is discussed, and Ravindra Svarupa Dasa talks about the succession crisis that ensues, and about the GBC attempting to reign in the deviating Initiating Gurus. Svarupa goes on to discuss Kirtanananda's "Interfaith era" at New Vrindaban, and how this, among other things, basically led to Kirtanananda's expulsion (and his community's expulsion) from ISKCON in 1987.
Ravindra Svarupa Dasa says, "As time went on he (Kirtanananda) began deviating more and more from the basic practices of Krishna Consciousness... more and more Kirtanananda was taking the theology and practices of the group not only in a Christian direction, but in a Millenarian style of Christianity. He began to put on the robes of a Franciscan, he began to adopt Christian liturgical practices, bring in organs, well none of these things are practices and philosophy of Krishna Consciousness."
Kirtanananda says, "I did a little... market research. I had some devotees question people on the street and show them pictures, 'What does this remind you of?' The dhoti, the Indian dress, and most people would say something like, 'a kook. A cult.' Practically no one said a devotee of God. I asked people what kind of dress would remind you of spiritual life?... And almost invariably they said some kind of robe like Jesus wore, or like the monks wear."
Legal charges are listed as being filed against the Swami and his group relating to allegations of conspiracy to murder, among other things. Kirtanananda says, "I was accused of arson, and acquitted. Now again, we're accused of so many things."
Part 2 - The screen says, "March 11, 1991 - The Swami's Racketeering trial begins."
Kirtanananda says, "I was not charged with sexual molestation, or anything, yet the first two days of testimony were all about sexual molestation."
George Exoo says, "Witness number seven, the young Chaitanya. Chaitanya had reported in the trial... that he had been abused over time by the Swami, that he had a sexual involvement over time with the Swami."
The screen then shows a court transcript from the trial, which says the following:
George Exoo says, "The Swami would make regular trips down to the gurukula and select a boy for special favors, shall we say. With the understanding being sexual. In the time that I was there, Bhaktipada always had a personal servant... There were several of them... They were about 18 years old and blond."
Thomas McGurrin, a former devotee, says, "With his boys, his servants, there would be public displays of affection that, to anyone who wasn't completely blinded by the devotion that they had for the Swami... it was so obvious that the man was being..." (word inaudible to my ears).
The screen then says:
More allegations of impropriety are discussed in relation to the New Vrindaban community. Then, there's the part that shows the mother of a boy who claimed to have been molested by a teacher or someone at the gurukula school appearing on Larry King Live, the popular TV show, and she (Susan Hebel) said that she went to Kirtanananda about the abuses and was told, "You're just a stupid woman... this doesn't go on in my school, and I don't want to hear about it." (Quote from Susan Hebel's appearance on Larry King Live as shown in the documentary). She also says, "My son was molested from the time he was seven until the time he was nine and a half, and it was completely swept under the rug..."
Kirtanananda says, "There were a number of rumors of child abuse in the school, which I tired to check out... I asked the boy, and he denied it. He denied it!" Kirtanananda continues, "The teacher, whose name was Sri Galima, he was charged, but the government dropped the case." Kirtanananda also says, "I never saw any child abuse. The committee did not find any child abuse. No adult was ever convicted of molesting a child in our school, or anywhere else in our community."
William A. Kolibash, the prosecuting attorney, says, "When Mr. Bryant (Steve Bryant) came out with some of his publications, one of those allegations was the allegation of sexual molestation... So, something had to be done with Mr. Bryant, so under our theory, the prosecution, the motive for Bryant's murder was to silence him, to stop this information flow about the sexual molestation that was going on, and about the Swami actively involved in that molestation. So, it was an established motive for the Bryant murder."
A local news clip shows scenes from the trial, a quote from Steve Bryant's mother (Helga Bryant), and describes Kirtanananda as a "Baptist minister's son." Pictures of the accused "trigger man", Thomas Drescher (Tirtha das), are also shown.
Kirtanananda says, "I can honestly say, I do not know who killed Steve Bryant. There were a number of people who had motives. Sulocana (Bryant) was a rather strange person... he did not have love, really. Nor did he understand the higher principles of Krishna Consciousness, which have to do with cooperation..."
Excerpts and interviews with Steve Bryant's parents follow. Quotes from some of Bryant's writings appear on the screen, including one which says, "... the Swami has been caught numerous times erotically embracing a young boy known as Dharmaraja..." and "... the Swami has followers who will kill for him, which is why few victims will testify against him..."
Tirtha das says, "The final authority to kill Sulocana (Bryant) could only come from one person. For my own satisfaction, I had to hear Kirtanananda himself say the words. I asked him if he felt it best for Sulocana to be killed, and his direct response was, 'Yes, that would be best.'"
Bryant's father then explains how Tirtha das shot his son through the window of his van out in California.
Tirtha das says, "I was given a rather gruesome task to perform. Had I not been given authorization personally from Kirtanananda, I would not have been in California to eliminate Sulocana (Bryant)."
Kirtanananda says, "I can honestly say, I do not know who killed Steve Bryant."
A taped phone conversation between Randall Gorby and Tirtha das is played. In it, Tirtha das can be heard talking about getting money from Kirtanananda. The taped phone conversation was made by the West Virginia State Police with Gorby's permission. Gorby's house exploded due to a gas leak soon after. Also, Gorby was later found dead in his truck, which authorities say was suicide.
The fraudulent fundraising charges are then discussed. Millions of dollars are said to have been collected through questionable means. Dennis Gorrick (Dharmatma) is mentioned, and the prosecutor, William Kolibash says, "He was sentenced to several years in jail."
The murder of Charles St. Denis is then discussed. Tirtha das talks about this in some detail, and Kirtanananda discusses this as well.
Tirtha das says that he asked Kirtanananda, "Did you authorize us (Tirtha and Dan Reid 'Daruka') to kill him (Charles St. Denis)? Do you wish for me to be involved as an active participant? He (Kirtanananda) got up, and walked toward a window. He... said... 'because of his offenses, he has to die.'"
Kirtanananda says, "How could I encourage or condone the killing of a human being? This is preposterous."
Part 3 - Tirtha das goes into more detail about the killing of Charles St. Denis in part three, and claims that Kirtanananda asked him, "Did you dispose of the body properly?", to which he claims to have responded, "No one is ever going to find that guy."
A number of improperly disposed of bodies are found at New Vrindaban, and local news clips from that time are shown.
Kirtanananda says, "What difference does it matter what you do to a dead body? A dead body, as far as we're concerned is another piece of earth... we put them in the ground and forget about them. We don't see any reason to mark them."
Tirtha das says, "St. Denis was telling people that Kirtanananda was having sexual relations with some of the Mexican workers. He was saying, 'Kirtanananda is fooling around with the Mexican boys', saying, 'He used to be homosexual, he's up to his old tricks again.' It was because there was truth to his allegations that he had to be silenced."
Kirtanananda says, "Whom the Lord wants to kill, no one can save, and whom the Lord wants to save, no one can kill."
Kirtanananda says, "When I first came to New Vrindaban in 1966, I came with Howard Wheeler. We, together, founded the community."
Kirtanananda then discusses the charges relating to the alleged kidnapping of Howard Wheeler's son (aka "Dharmaraj"). The documentary explains that the child was supposedly at New Vrindaban, in the care of Kirtanananda, when the child's mother showed up in Moundsville, West Virginia, attempting to get custody of the child. The child was then sent to his father in Mexico, and the mother didn't get to see him. The prosecutor, William Kolibash, claims this was a possible attempt to cover up the sexual molestation of the Wheeler child.
Kirtanananda says, "He was like a son to me. As far as anything improper, this question, of course, was put to him in the court. And he denied, very vehemently, that there ever was anything improper."
The accusations of Insurance Fraud and Racketeering are then discussed. The total control of the community by Kirtanananda Swami is also discussed.
According to the documentary, "The verdict: The Swami is found guilty by a jury of conspiracy in the murder of Chuck St. Denis, the jury hangs and a mistrial is declared on the charge of conspiracy to murder Steve Bryant, the Swami is found guilty in the kidnapping of Devin Wheeler, found guilty of fraudulent fundraising and insurance fraud, and also found guilty of three counts of racketeering. The Swami is sentenced to 30 years in federal prison."
A news report from the time shows this and lists some of the charges. Kirtanananda is shown with reporters, who say that he is under house arrest, and that "he came up with the $250,000 bond and is being given a limited form of freedom."
Kirtanananda says, "Our appeal is being handled by Alan Dershowitz."
Alan Dershowitz, who later famously helped defend O. J. Simpson, is shown discussing and denouncing each of the charges in detail.
Alan Dershowitz says, "If any prosecutor dared to say the things that this prosecutor said about this religion in the context of another quote 'more mainstream' religion, he'd be fired." "When I first heard about this case and read the transcript, it was clear to me that this prosecution, even if the facts were identical, could not and would not have been brought against a mainstream religion." "The risk of religious bigotry having pervaded this case was just too great, so my interest in the case was primarily as a First Amendment lawyer, as a civil libertarian, as someone who cares deeply about preservations of religious freedom."
Alan Dershowitz also says, "The homosexuality part of the case really is a witchcraft trial of modern times." "Devon (Wheeler) denied that he was ever homosexually molested."
Nathan Dershowitz, Alan's brother, who is also a lawyer, says, "One witness was a very strange witness, who said he saw Devon tickled, and even saw him tickled in the crotch area. That is converted into homosexuality."
Alan Dershowitz says, "The evidence was underwhelming. If every American father and mother who has tickled his child, or her child, is to be charged with sexual molesting we would have real serious problems in this society."
Nathan Dershowitz says, "That's the kind of thing that came in. The rest of it was introduced, I think, just to prejudice the jury."
Kirtanananda says, "To be persecuted for one's beliefs is not a bad thing. That puts us in very good company. Afterall, Socrates was made to drink the hemlock cup, reportedly on a charge of child molestation."
According to the documentary, nearly a year later, the court case is overturned and the federal prosecutor, William Kolibash, is fired by the Department of Justice on the same day. The next day, Kolibash holds his final press conference as a U.S. Attorney and says, "The day ended and I'm driving home in a rain storm, late last night, and I hear this thump, thump, thump, and I have a flat tire." The documentary then says, "It was later determined that flat tire was the result of a bullet hole."
On the screen, it says, "The appeal result from the U.S. Court of Appeals: Swami challenged the admission of evidence of child molestation and homosexual conduct under federal rules of evidence 403. Rule 403 provides that admissible evidence may be excluded if its value is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice. The judges accept that the implications of child molestation and homosexuality unfairly prejudiced the defendant. Because they concluded that the court abused its discretion in admitting this evidence, they set aside the convictions on all counts and returned the case to court for a new trial."
Kirtanananda is shown leaving house arrest and saying, "I'm a free man. I'm out. I guess I'll go to New Vrindaban first."
The words on the screen say, "New Vrindaban - August 17, 1993"
Images of Kirtanananda back at New Vrindaban are shown. He is shown taking his dog with him almost everywhere he goes, even in the temple.
The court will retry Kirtanananda on 5 charges (1) STEPHEN BRYANT MURDER, 2) CHARLES ST. DENNIS MURDER, 3) DEVON WHEELER KIDNAPPING, 4) MAIL FRAUD: FUNDRAISING, 5) MAIL FRAUD: ALLSTATE INSURANCE 1, 2 ).
Kirtanananda is shown at "Silent Mountain". Silent Mountain was his rustic retreat in the West Virginia hills, a place he went in order to get away from things for a while. The documentary indicates that he is still involved in the management of New Vrindaban in some ways at this point, but then goes on to say that this soon changes after the "Winnebago Incident".
"The Winnebago Incident" is discussed.
Kirtanananda says, "Well, I did go to the world congress on religion."
The documentary indicates it was held in Chicago, 1993, and a picture of the winnebago vehicle is shown. The documentary says, "A devotee named Steve Travor accompanied the Swami to Chicago."
Kirtanananda says, "I think he went along to help drive."
The documentary continues, "In Chicago, Swami sent Steve to the airport to pick up a Malaysian boy who was flying in from one of the Swami's overseas temples."
Tirtha das says, "They were returning, I believe from Chicago, in a travel trailer, a winnebago, and the driver, somehow the curtain opened in the rear where the Swami was, and he was in bed with this young Malaysian boy."
Damodar das (Allen White), listed as a senior devotee, says, "Steve Travor just went to a couple of the community members and said something to them, and then they said something to other people, and that's what brought about this meeting with Bhaktipada and some of the community leaders. About eight of the senior members of the community approached him and asked him if he was experiencing any spiritual difficulties. At that time, he said that, indeed, he acted at times in such a way not befitting his position as guru."
Garga Rsi das (David Waterman), listed as a senior devotee, says, "About six or seven of the leaders of the community, myself included, did talk to Bhaktipada. He came to us and said, 'I'm having problems. I feel like a general who's been wounded in the battlefield.'"
Tirtha das says, "The authorities at the community, the community elders confronted the Swami with it, and he admitted it. He admitted he had been doing homosexual activities. So many different people had seen something or had noticed something. He was molesting the children in our community. It was a recurring theme that, it dogged him for years."
Damodar das says, "He himself admitted that he was not actually fit to be the spiritual leader of the community anymore. The overwhelming majority of the devotees here no longer accepted him as the spiritual figurehead."
Garga Rsi das says, "At that point we saw that Bhaktipada, in our minds, didn't really want to admit things, and perhaps he was in this denial that he didn't really want to get out of, and because of that the leaders lost the faith they had in Bhaktipada. That was definitely a turning point, and from that things have evolved to the point where Bhaktipada was asked to leave the community. Many of the devout followers who stuck with him all that time were either asked to leave or naturally left."
The documentary says, "One year later, the government offered the Swami a plea bargain. If he would accept a 5 to 7 year sentence, they would stop their efforts to seize the assets of New Vrindaban community. Swami refused. Tom Drescher (Tirtha das) was outraged."
Tirtha das says, "The best course of action was for him to admit some guilt and take the plea bargain offered. That also would've relieved the community from its legal burden, and he chose not to do that. So, once again, it underscores the fact he didn't care about the community. He was only interested in his own self-aggrandizement."
A picture of a newspaper is shown saying, "New Vrindaban Pleads No Contest In Fraud Case", and the documentary says, "they paid a $100,000 fine, and the community is subject to additional fines up to 21 million dollars."
The screen then says, "Swami's Second Racketeering Trial Begins April 16, 1996."
The documentary indicated that five years after the first trial, the Swami is back on trial for the same charges in the same court room, and then says, "But in this trial there is a crucial difference. Tom Drescher (Tirtha das) agreed to testify against the Swami. Prior to this, all he said was (quote from an older news clip), 'I never murdered anybody.'"
Tirtha das goes on to say, "The Swami's belligerent attitude to the devotees, he forced the situation, and I had to respond in kind. I was left with no choice." "In the trial, they were not prepared for my involvement. At the conclusion of my testimony, the Swami was literally crushed."
The documentary says, "Since he agreed to testify against the Swami, Tom Drescher (Tirtha das) has survived two attempts on his life."
Tirtha das says, "I was risking my life, and I still am in terms of my situation, by stepping forward as I have, and that's my lot."
A picture of the front page of The Charleston Gazette is shown that says, "Swami Enters Guilty Plea".
The documentary says, "After the testimony of Tom Drescher (Tirtha das), the Swami's attorneys stopped the trial by offering a plea bargain. The Swami pleaded guilty to the first count of racketeering, which included charges of the two murders, fraudulent fundraising, and insurance fraud. But still, he maintained until the end that he never authorized the killing of a human being. He returned to Silent Mountain to await sentence. He faces up to 20 years in prison." These things can be confirmed by the court records 1, 2.
The rest, as they say, is history.
All of the above quotes are from Jacob Young's documentary film Holy Cow Swami (1996, WNPB-TV). Those quotes are in there, and you can watch Kirtinananda, and others, speak these words on film for yourself. If anyone wants to check these quotes out to make sure that they are indeed correct, be sure to watch the [http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Cow-Swami-Kirtinananda-Bhaktipada/dp/B000A7Y18U documentary].
Geneisner ( talk) 19:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
References
Suggest to move to Keith Gordon Ham, since this person is not really a practicing Vaisnava, and is really not in a position to use the name. He is not using this name lately, so if you do not object I suggest moving it asap, Keith Ham is the name used in the court records, so could be the right name too. Wikid as© 13:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm aware of some swamis changing the passport names in Iskcon and other maths. I am not sure it is an argument. Henry, is it Kritanananda Svami in the passport? Wikid as© 21:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I added additional signatures because after posting the note I edited it several times. I thought I was supposed to sign each time after editing.
Regarding the deleted sections referenced by the documentary "Holy Cow! Swami" directed by Gordon Jacob, I believe these sections should be returned to the article because this video was originally broadcast as a Public Television documentary by the West Virginia Educational Broadcasting Authority in 1996. Only later was it reproduced as a commercial video disc. Does not Wikipedia recognize the scholarship needed in order to produce a documentary on public television? Are public television documentaries legitimate sources or not?
And sections related to Kirtanananda Swami as homosexual should be replaced, because this is the reason he was asked to leave the New Vrindaban Community after the Winnebago Incident of September 1993, after which he lost most of his followers and was forced to retire to Silent Mountain. This is also documented in "Holy Cow! Swami."
And why was the section about his move to India deleted? This was referenced by the "Brijabasi Spirit," the Online Journal of the New Vrindaban Community? If articles about ISKCON contain references from "ISKCON Communications Journal," why should not an article about the founder of New Vrindaban contain references from the Journal of the New Vrindaban Community?
I am not an expert Wikipedia editor. But if my arguments are sound, I request another editor please make these changes.
Henry Doktorski ( talk) 13:10, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Court Records inclusion:
Self published books or a personal dairy:
Inclusion of the tv documentary:
I have started the discussion here and tagged the article disputed until consensus is reached. Please comment if you wish folks, including Henry himself. I would appreciate if expert in BLPs made comments in order to get the consensus that actually reflects the guideline and the policy. Editors who want to add material to the article are welcomed and are strongly suggested to list the sources there as well to get a comprehesive view from the experts. I hope you can cooperate and follow on based on the consensus. I have also removed some claim that does not seem to based on facts, we shold be honest and know that many svamis do that -- Sivarama Swami, Radhanath Swami, etc on the number of their books, but you really need to have some evidence for such notes or the claims before adding material. Again the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. WP:V (in this case it is Henry) and I will be delighted if such sources are found, I will treat it as non-contentious issue. Wikid as© 03:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Here's the NYT story. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/25/us/swami-bhaktipada-ex-hare-krishna-leader-dies-at-74.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Nbauman ( talk) 04:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC).
Dear Geneiser, why are you bent upon exposing a particular "Swami" on Wikipedia? The lengthy article is unhelpful as those who may know about K Swami need not read it on Wikipedia. And ISKCON does not lose its standing just because of the falldown (if any) of one person. I admit I do not know about personal details and activities of K Swami, but Wikipedia is not the place. So Ive deleted some sections. - Polytope4d ( talk) 15:01, 31 March 2014 (UTC)