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Who is the Raja king that supposed to Lead the battle against the Muslim Bruneian empire? Supposed to be Gambang or Lontok (1430-1450), Even Dayang Kalangitan. (1450-1515)( JournalmanManila ( talk) 01:07, 7 November 2016 (UTC))
This is NOT a flaw. The peer reviewed academic sources in the field don't explicitly say this, so that information is speculative. Adding that here would be a gross violation of Wikipedia rules, as stated in WP:Verifiability and WP:No Original Research.- Alternativity ( talk) 07:10, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi. I have to point out that entire sections in the current article seem to have been created on the assumption that the Lucoes/Luzones are from Tondo. There's no direct evidence of that. I've looked and looked, but as far as I can tell, there are no Reliable Sources stating that Lucoes are from the Pasig River Kingdoms, let alone Tondo. According to WP:Verifiability, all content based on that assertion will have to be deleted, unless such documents can be found. Thanks! - Alternativity ( talk) 10:48, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
And Kingdom of Tondo was from Luzon, (example are: ) Tondo Helped The Siamese Kingdom of Ayuthaya in their City Defense while On the Other hand, 'Tondo Supported Toungoo Dynasty on its Expanisionism in 1547. who they are? Army /warriors/ mercenaries of tondo where tondo at ? Luzon what Portuguese called these mercenaries? Lusung warriors, so in the shorter terms its Lucoes not only a warriors but a traders too.sry for my grammar by the way . ( JournalmanManila ( talk) 12:54, 8 February 2017 (UTC))
May i remind everyone to review or check the sources before conducting a deletion in a particular section And even check the Citations before you delete the entire infobox WP:VERIFIABILIY ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 12:55, 10 April 2017 (UTC))
The deletions are necessary, especially if the sources are bullshit from geocities. When it comes to history, one should provide sources FROM academic peer-reviewed sources. I'll delete most of the information here UNTIL the parts are properly sourced. The extent of the Kingdom of Tondo depicted in the map is also unfounded and is pseudohistory. ( Stricnina)
The map and the rest of the article have as references blogs, websites with no academic peer-reviewed material or books citing Wikipedia itself (e.g. the book "Soils of the Philippines" - https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=sY7EBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=kingdom+of+tondo&source=bl&ots=fJ3K8tTeob&sig=waGJLIKTI0NLMiv4K3ssKFMoqBk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ74W_1ebRAhUBkJQKHSnqDxI4ChDoAQgmMAU#v=onepage&q=kingdom%20of%20tondo&f=false). The page itself is in need of a major overhaul in order to improve its credibility. In the meantime, I will tag all the unfounded statements without proper citations (the statements without citations from books or from peer-reviewed content). Stricnina ( talk) 12:30, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Given how much popular speculation there is on this page, I strongly support ( Stricnina)'s insistence on academic/peer-reviewed sources. One major piece of speculation that I've tagged: the entire section on the "Lucoes" rests upon the assertion that the polities referred to as the "Kingdom of Tondo" and the "Kingdom of Luzon" are the same state - I am not aware of a peer reviewed source that says the two are one and the same. (There are at least two other kingdoms in the immediate geographical location, and power shifted between them over the course of half a millenia, so a definitive identification if at all academically possible, is essential.) Another problem is that the sections discussing trade relations with China tend to take up a Sinocentric POV, overrelying on un-peer-reviewed primary sources and thus blindly accepting Chinese texts' assertions of China's significance. (As a result portraying Tondo as a subservient polity.) On a slightly different tangent: I am unsure what the review process for unsourced or POV images involves, but perhaps this rigorous review should continue there as well. Shouldn't images with speculative content be nominated for deletion? - Alternativity ( talk) 07:04, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article is a mess, with lots of speculation and unverified content, starting with the fact that the Kingdom of Tondo extended far beyond to Ilocos and Bicol when in fact that are no reputable sources that claims this. The only sources being cited are from blogs, websites that are down and can't be reached, and books that cite Wikipedia itself. So I'm going to ask Theseeker2016 to please stop undoing the removal of unverified non-peer-reviewed speculations. Speculations are reserved to blogs, not in Wikipedia pages. Thank you. Stricnina ( talk) 05:43, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I am removing the numerous translations of "Kingdom of Tondo" because there is no point. There are even no academic sources that attest that the polity called itself as a "Kingdom" in the past. We have no sources that testify that Ilocano and Bicolano were actually used as official languages in the past because of very scant sources. Plus, the Ilocano and Bicolano translations are only justified by non-academic non-peer reviewed blogs and articles that are written by anonymous people that claim the extension of the Kingdom of Tondo far beyond to the Ilocos and Bicol regions. I'm suggesting Theseeker2016 to refrain from undoing the removal of dubious content. If you engage in an edit war with me, then so be it. Stricnina ( talk) 05:56, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll be removing citations about Rajah Alon because of the absence of peer-reviewed sources about him. I suggest Theseeker2016 and Jim1138 to stop undoing the removal of dubious content. This Wikipedia article is a mess and it is our job to present an article that is backed up by academic peer-reviewed sources and not blogs written anonymously nor books that cited Wikipedia itself. Stricnina ( talk) 05:56, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I strongly support Stricnina actions to clean up this page from speculations and somewhat bordering "history fabrications", insist on only including academic/peer-reviewed sources, valid references, preverably published history books, avoiding blogs or sources that citing wikipedia, and deleting dubious sections. If Tondo's history is unclear, so be it, at least that's the fact. I think this is the main weakness on constructing Pre-Hispanic Philippines history article; scarce historical evidences and too little historical sources and materials for historians to work with, coupled with weak historiography discipline. But that does not means wikipedia editor could fabricate its history. Keep up the good workǃ Gunkarta talk 12:12, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
There is no justification in citing a book that cites a Wikipedia article. For example, this book is cited:
Stop citing this book. You can't cite a book that cites Wikipedia. It doesn't make any sense. Theseeker2016. Stricnina ( talk) 08:24, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
This blog is also cited: https://philippinebuddhism.wordpress.com/2014/11/09/early-buddhism-in-the-philippines/ The blog is written by an anonymous person with no known academic background. There are no citations in that blog and it is full of speculations and bullshit. Every statement that cites this blog will be removed in the absence of further verification. Theseeker2016 Stricnina ( talk) 08:42, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
This source is being cited: http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/opinion/view/20091011-229561/The-Indian-in-the-Filipino The page is down and can't be reached. Every statement that cites this blog will be removed in the absence of further verification. Theseeker2016 Stricnina ( talk) 08:54, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
This so-called Rajah Alon can be traced to this blog written by an anonymous author with no known academic background: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/philippines/history-tondo.htm The blog doesn't cite any books or verifiable articles. I have zero tolerance over bullshit. Theseeker2016, Darwgon0801 and friends should take note. Rajah Alon is going to be deleted. Stricnina ( talk) 09:09, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site being cited: http://www.bayangpinagpala.org/ Too bad it's down. Theseeker2016, Darwgon0801 and friends should look for other academic peer-reviewed sources or I'll delete every claim that cites an unreachable webpage. Thank you. Stricnina ( talk) 09:22, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Un reliable ? The LCI (which is a 900 Ad almost a millennia-old artifacts and works of Scholars are arent enough? and The Blogs you called are a tertiary and Secondary sources with the backing of the Reliable Sources from the names of Filipino and Dutch anthropologist available its sites which contain information and its free as you know (Based on academic works i mentioned) even the Chinese and Spanish written records are unreliable too? Un-Accademic? may i remind everyone No one can remove until the Consensus has created and i shall follow it. WP CONSENSUS.( Theseeker2016 ( talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 10:48, 15 April 2017 (UTC) I mean if we have to clean up, We must make sure that we have a proper reading of the Reliable sources , and before we add maintenance stubs make sure we put in the right areas (otherwise, it will only look stubbish) and not good for an article, and Before we Remove we must Follow WP CONSENSUS thank you ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 10:58, 15 April 2017 (UTC))
I want this, Theseeker2016: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research
Theseeker2016, you are not addressing the fact that there are NO sources that prove Rajah Alon's existence, for example. You're evading the argument altogether with your wordy paragraphs. I insist on ACADEMIC and PEER-REVIEWED sources. Anonymous blogs are NOT academic sources and Wikipedia is supposed to NOT tolerate original research without proper citations. Stricnina ( talk) 11:06, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site that is cited as a source but is unreachable: http://mb.com.ph/articles/362013/philippinesthailand-diplomatic-relations-day#.UQjTox03uVI The site is supposed to verify the Philippine-Thailand relations but it is down now. Theseeker2016, Darwgon0801 and friends, if in the future I decide to remove statements that cite this unverifiable source, I would like you all to stop interfering with the clean-up. Thank you very much. Stricnina ( talk) 16:05, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site on 404: http://www.mts.net/~pmorrow/lcieng.htm . I will suggest to everyone ( Theseeker2016 and friends) to use multiple citations from reliable secondary and primary sources (academic and PEER-REVIEWED, preferably books) to avoid multiple sources on 404 in the future. Stricnina ( talk) 05:38, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
An unrelated site is being used as a source for the following sentence: Initially the kingdom revered Buddhist-Hindu influence as the predominant religion. The said site is the following: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/10771/pg10771-images.html I suggest to my fellow armchair historians like Theseeker2016 and friends to STOP citing completely unrelated websites to an unfounded statement. Use a reliable secondary or primary source which is ON POINT. In the absence of further verification, that sentence will be removed or reformulated based on available reliable sources. Thank you very much. Stricnina ( talk) 05:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site without verifiable sources and citations: http://www.buddhist-tourism.com/countries/philippines/buddhism-in-philippines.html The site is written by an anonymous author with no academic background whatsoever. Stop citing a blog without citations from the works of known historians such as Nick Joaquin, Ambeth Ocampo, W.H. Scott, etc.! Every statement that dares cite the website as a source will be removed in the future. Stricnina ( talk) 05:55, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Agreed and support Stricnina suggestions and actions, please proceed. Gunkarta talk 12:15, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
As previously stated, I support the move towards removing any sources that are not either academic/peer-reviewed or recognized by an official entity such as the National Historical Institute (or at least rewriting them so their assertions are clearly marked as conjecture, and by whom). Which means I generally side with Stricnina on this, although perhaps not in the case of all edits. I'll make a new discussion section, I'll identify a few sources whose reliability has been ruled on by the community in the past. Thanks. (BTW, folks, if you're tagging others in your posts, it may be helpful to put a dash before the tildes that autosign your signature, so that your singnature is marked off from other names. :D Just a suggestion.) - Alternativity ( talk) 15:06, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
As promised in the previous section, I'm placing a summary and list of links to previous community discussions establishing consensus on the reliability of certain sources.
Source | Summary of Consensus | Discussion |
---|---|---|
watawat.net | A discussion on the reliability of watawat.net was already discussed and resolved in 2011. | The relevant discussion is at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_97#.22Lakandula.27s_Flag.22_is_speculative |
globalsources.org as a source for Philippine prehistory and protohistory | A discussion on the reliability of globalsources.org as a source for Philippine prehistory and protohistory took place in December 2016, and the consensus was that while globalsources.org is often a reliable source for contemporary military topics, it isn't generally reliable as a source for Philippine history. The specific page "History-Tondo" was noted unreliable given it didn't cite its sources and seemed to use dated language. | The discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_217#globalsecurity.org_as_a_source_on_Philippine_Prehistory_and_Protohistory |
"The Soils of the Philippines" By Carating,Rodelio B., Raymundo G. Galanta, and Clarita D. Bacatio. | This was brought up with the Philippine Wikimedia community in 2017, with the consensus that it should NOT be used as per WP:CIRCULAR. | The discussion can be found at Wikipedia_talk:Tambayan_Philippines/Archive40#.22The_Soils_of_the_Philippines.22_as_a_History_of_the_Philippines_Source |
I hope this helps! Thanks! - Alternativity ( talk) 15:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site without any useful content is cited by this Wikipedia article: http://vedicempire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=26 I suggest Theseeker2016, Alternativity and friends to STOP citing a webpage that is down and has its "domain name in sale". Thank you very much. Stricnina ( talk) 18:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
This source can be classified as a primary source: http://www.lib.kobe-u.ac.jp/directory/sumita/5A-161/volume05.html It is being used as a citation for the existence of a certain "Lakan Suko". Since according to Wikipedia guidelines, "any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation", I'm going to ask every contributor here to verify the source or preferably cite a reliable peer-reviewed or academic secondary source that specifically mentions the very existence of Lakan Suko. In the absence of such evidences, the statements about Lakan Suko might be removed for lack of citations. Stricnina ( talk) 11:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
i watching what so called improvements sorry for the term salafi but a ultra-mainstreamism i meant , irrelevant? that was the way here im still civil on that mood. if i find out any flaws here it will be restore if they called me uncivilized for my term then so be it ...at least i will give this page an appropriate place according to Proper links and references plus , i will prevent this page to become 0-info at all! but i dont believe it will turn to that momentum. ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 08:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC))
Theseeker2016, if you have peer-reviewed sources (not BLOGS without academic citations), you should have been citing them by now instead of wasting time writing useless stuff here. If you have peer-reviewed sources, cite them as per Wikipedia Guidelines. Stop the useless banter and cooperate by following the guidelines. Remember that I fully support WP:VERIFIABILITY and NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH and I do not tolerate uncited statements in this Wiki page. Stricnina ( talk) 10:17, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Broad community consensus on such matters can be achieved by raising the matter up at the Reliable sources noticeboard. If some editors reject the standards set by the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources policy, then none of us have any choice but to bring this up there, and to present arguments based on the standards set in Wikipedia:Reliable_sources. - Alternativity ( talk) 13:10, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Ughk. Forgive me for ranting, but this incessant promoting of fringe theories and rejection of scholarly neutrality (as expresed in Wikipedia's Reliable Sources policy) is really getting on my nerves.
We just went through the whole nine yards of disproving(Scott, '84; Go '05) that Tondo was politically dependent on China. Now people are trying to make it look like Tondo was somehow a subject of India (Which is ridiculous because no thassalocratic empire of that period the naval capabilities necessary to project their political power THAT far)?
Aren't the universally-acknowledged (but indirect! see Scott, 84; Scott, '94; Potet '13; Jocano '01; Go '05) political influence of the Southeast Asian thassalocracies enough?
What is this obsession with being slaves to some empire?!?! What is this refusal to acknowledge the scholar-acknowledged consensus that these were fully indpendent political entities (Scott, 84; Scott, '94; Potet '13; Jocano '01; Go '05; Alejandro '04; Harper '04; Odal-Devora '04) with their own fully-formed although foreign-influenced cultures and economies? Why this willingness to swallow contemporary propaganda? And why do today's edits in particular make it sound as if anitism/animism is somehow inferior to Hinduism and Buddhism?
I'm sorry, but given the rejection of academic orthodoxy, these are clear cases of anti-nativist lies, and I have to call this out for what it is, whether the editors concerned realize it or not: imperialist propaganda. - Alternativity ( talk) 07:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
That is what your sources are saying, but that's not what the article says the way it's currently written. The paragraph structure on the article - largely because of the insistence on catchphrases - implies political control, rather than just cultural influence. If you don't mean that, then the text (as it is on the page right now) is saying something you don't want it to say. People would not be so mad if you please phrased your edits more carefully and neutrally, and followed the strict rules set in WP:Reliable sources. In this case, for example: if you want to talk about Indian cultural influence, discuss it in a new section about cultural influences, not in the lede paragraph where you're supposed to summarize the most fundamental (meaning political) characteristics of the article's subject. Me, I acknowledge the cultural influence of India, and in fact, I want to write a section on that, but I have to study the texts carefully first and double check the reliability of sources. Adding new sections and new information isn't bad. In fact there's a lot of material in the various journals that aren't here yet. But you have to put them in very carefully and screening your sources for academic rigor or you'll end up either (a) misrepresenting the ideas in the articles, or (b) citing propaganda articles (see Fringe theories). That's why cleaning up takes so long. Careful quality control is all we ask for. (And better sentence writing and paragraph structure would be a big help.) - Alternativity ( talk) 11:08, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
If you have any problems with a source being removed, I highly recommend you bring it up at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard, the most appropriate venue for seeking community consensus on such disagreements. Then leave a note at the WikiProject Philippines talk page so they can comment on the RS Noticeboard too. That way more experienced wikipedians can discuss and assess the reliability of the source as per wikipedia rules. - Alternativity ( talk) 20:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I see this article has soo many flaws in historiography discipline and perspective. Do we even sure that the 9th century Kingdom of Tondo mentioned in LCI was the same polity as the later 14th century Saludung or Selurong mentioned in Nagarakretagama, also the same as the 16th century Luções, and the same (continuation) of polities in pre-Islamic and pre-hispanic Philippines? Assuming that there was a solid continuous kingdom stretched from 9th century to late 16th century based on soo few evidences is outrageous in historiography discipline. This article has stretch too far by assuming that they were one solid continuous polity/kingdom/dynasty. In my Indonesian history perspective, this error is like assuming (and combining) that 4th century Tarumanagara was continued to 9th century Medang Mataram all the way to 14th century Majapahit, and think of them as one big happy family of continuous kingdom/dynasty, only based on the fact that they are located in the same Java island, in fact they weren't continuous kingdom/dynasty. We should focus and stick to the fact in the name where Tundun in LCI mentioned, and Dongdu from Chinese source. Connection with later polities/entities, may it be Seludong, Maynila, Luções, etc. are discouraged without reliable sources and peer reviewed articles. Gunkarta talk 13:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
And the name Tondo are sanskrit with the elements of Old Tagalog and Old Malay From the LCI so it is possible that its not a Chinese Name Chinese often translated names according to their way of Pinyin which is Dongdu ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 03:05, 2 May 2017 (UTC))
Pires [ca. 1500] twice mentions that the junks of the Malays and Javanese were not allowed to proceed to the city of Guangzhou because of the fear in which they were held, but when describing details of the fear in which they were held, but when describing details of the city he adds, "so the Lucoes [Luzons] say who have been there. These Lucoes demand some attention..."They [Luzons] have two or three junks, at most. They take the merchandise to Burney [Brunei] and from there they come to Melaka, . . . The Bruneians go to the lands of the Luzons to buy gold."....The Luzons were in fact the principal Melaka traders to China, which is difficult to understand unless they had brought with them to Melaka some knowledge of Chinese commerce and customs. It seems probable that the Luzon-Brunei connection arose when both centres were rising into commercial significance in consequence of their close connection with China in the early fifteenth century.
- Alilunas-Rodgers, Kristine, and Anthony Reid. Sojourners and Settlers: Histories of Southeast Asia and the Chinese. Honolulu: Univ. of Hawai'i Press, 2001, 34-5. ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 03:05, 2 May 2017 (UTC))
I think the name/term Selurong came from the Lobed River Mullet.
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Just FYI: the long list of alternative names and orthographies has been moved down to their own section ( Alternative names and orthographies) as per WP:LEADCLUTTER (aka Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Separate_section_usage ), which states:
...if there are more than two alternative names, these names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section; it is recommended that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves. Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead.
Thanks. - Alternativity ( talk) 03:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
Hi. This response to User:Parashurama007's query on my talkpage regarding why "Kingdom" is a mislabeling, based on scholarly interpretation of the original texts.
The assertions of mislabeling aren’t mine, they’re the result of current scholarly consensus. The scholars who most directly said this are F. Landa Jocano, William Henry Scott and Laura Lee Junker, but Vicente Rafael also had important inputs. The second paragaph actually summarizes this already:
Travelers from from monarchical cultures[25] who had contacts with Tondo (including the Chinese, Portuguese, and the Spanish)[26] often initially mislabeled[25][26][6][1] it as the "Kingdom of Tondo". Early Augustinian chronicler Pedro de San Buenaventura explained this error as early as 1613 in his Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala,[21] but the label was nevertheless later adapted by the popular literature of the Spanish colonial era because of the influence of the Hispanic linguistic tradition.[14]
I’ll try to add a more expanded (but still summarized) set of points here. (Thanks to User:Sulbud by the way, for the good discussion on this subject which we had elsewhere. Also: I'm not sure about the exact year of some of the citations, since I'm typing from memory; I'll recheck them later.)
1. A Quick Clarification: the Laguna Copperplate Inscription doesn’t say anything about a king, it says “commander in chief” (pamegat senāpati).(Postma, 1992) I've seen Senāpati translated as "Admiral" (Dery, 2001), but never as "King."
2. Junker (1990, 1998) notes that Song and Ming Dynasty records were not firsthand observations
3. Junker (1998) notes that the Song and Ming Dynasty uses of the term Huang/Wang were interpretations the world was filtered through their Sinocentric worldview
4. Junker (1998) also asserts that the use of the term Huang in the Song and Ming Dynasty records seems to be a political justification for maintaining the Tondo-Maynila monopoly on Chinese trade; they used the term so that the Tondo-Maynila would sound more “acceptable” trading partners to the imperialist worldviews of the courts.
5. Scott (1994) cites San Buenaventura (1613) explaining that the tagalogs did not call their rulers “kings”. They had a term for king, which was “hari”, but this strictly did not apply to local rulers.
6. Scott (1994) also cites Rajah Sulayman (in the accounts of the 1571 Goiti expedition to Pampanga and Bulacan, mostly documented in Blair and Robertson Vol. 3) himself saying “there was no absolute king in these lands”
7. Scott (1994)cites San Buenaventura (1613) saying that “large polities consisting of several barangays” (this describes Maynila, Tondo, and Taguig) was called a Bayan.
8. Jocano (2001) asserts that the relationships that characterized the relationship of Filipino rulers with the other members of the community (lower ranked maginoo, timawa, and alipin) were more reciprocal than those in a monarchy.
9. Junker (1990, 1998) notes, by the way, that the Datus also did not fall into the categories traditionally associated with evolutionary chiefdoms; strictly speaking, they also weren’t chiefs. (When Junker uses the word "Chief", she puts it in quotation marks.)
10. We have a specific local term describing these polities: “Bayan.” We don’t need to import/introduce new western terms to describe these polities.
11. The rulers of Maynila and Tondo were called Datu, Rajah, or Lakan. They had specific titles. We don’t need to import/introduce new western terms to describe them.
12. Vicente Rafael (2005) notes that the term popular entertainers in the Spanish colonial era eventually used the term “Kingdom” because they didn’t have the words to properly describe the political structure of early Philippine societies, so this is where the mislabeling of Tondo and Maynila as “Kingdoms” began.
Some personal notes: What I'm watching out for is technically accurate operational definition of the social structure. Jocano and Junker provide significant details of how these early Philippine settlements were unique entities, which do NOT fall into convenient western categories. Scott goes into great detail about the original documents and agrees with that assessment. Other historians and historiographers say the same thing, but mostly referencing the lifework of these three. (Because the scale of the archival research they did used to take a lifetime, back when the manuscripts were not yet digitized).
I still don't actually understand why some editors seem to believe "kingdom" is somehow a more desirable description. Perhaps because of some surviving belief in nobility? But allowing such beliefs to color the text of wikipedia articles would be a violation of WP:POV, wouldn't it? I only understood this better when I ran into Vicente Rafael's 2005 explanation that the use of the term "Kaharian" was popularized in Spanish era Awit and Korido performances. So I see now that while "kingdom" might not be technically accurate for early Tagalog polities in the political or sociological sense, the term Kaharian was used in non-technical sources and venues. So I think "popular mislabelled" is a good compromise.
I've done my best to sum up my points, but I hope the sources speak for themselves. May I also seek opinions or inputs from
User:Sulbud,
User:Gintong Liwanag Ng Araw,
User:Stricnina,
User:Gunkarta, (and maybe
User:Darwgon0801 and
User:Wtmitchell?) who have constructively participated in these discussions or edits before? Thanks! -
Alternativity (
talk)
03:54, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
Hi, Mr.
Alternativity. I think there's no opinion I can give since you've already explained it firmly and you have the sources I don't have. By the way, is there any chance that you'll rename this article? (specifically as "Tondo (historical polity)", also to Maynila as "Maynila (historical polity)") Since I saw your edits in
Maynila and others that you seem want to redirect in that way. Or you'll just keep it since it was more popular. -
Darwgon0801 (
talk)
11:33, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Alternativity's reasonings. Even the oldest transcription linked to Tundun, the Laguna Copperplate did not mention any title of raja (king), only pamegat (official), senāpati (generals), and nāyaka (local community leaders). So far no prasasti (stone stele/inscription), linga or temple ever erected and discovered in the region. By examining this inscription, could means Tundun/Tondo was not a kingdom in classical Hindu/Buddhist sense, it is more likely a local provincial polity with a touch of Hindu/Buddhist influences, probably came from outside of Philippines archipelago. Or maybe the inscription was not a royal one, only concerning lesser officials; addressed only as high as senapati and nayaka. I think Tondo was just a minor polity, not yet a kingdom in classic Hindu/Buddhist sense. — Gunkarta talk 16:00, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
The fourth day of the waning moon, Monday. On this occasion, Lady Angkatan, and her relative whose name is Bukah, the children of the Honorable Namwaran, were awarded a document of complete pardon from the Commander-in-Chief of Tundun, represented by the Lord Minister of Pailah, Jayadewa.
Her rulers, based in their capital, Tondo ( Chinese: 東 都; pinyin: dōngdū) were acknowledged not as mere chieftains, but as kings . [2]
And In reference to the King these are what mentioned by historians attributed to the of Etymology of "Lakandula":
Banaw was the given name of the lord of Tondo at the time of the Spanish advent, and his title "Lakan" refers to a monarch and was the equivalent of "Rajah" or "King".' [3] [4] This leaves the matter of the addendum "dula" to be settled.
So, this is what we need to study of these issues, to avoid the pseudo-historian (Anarchonism) content here and for the sake of Balance and Neutrality in this article ( WP:NPOV) i will help to look for the further references and clean ups. Palasulam-ang talk
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If we're looking at more neutral names, I think the following are our options
I think we can dismiss "Ancient Tondo", Tondo (Chiefdom), and Tondo (village) for now, unless someone wants to make a strong argument for them.
Personally I think Tondo (historical polity) is still the academically most acceptable choice; Tondo (early Philippine history) is very long, but maybe it's the most convenient compromise. If the other suggestions don't prevail, I'll propose moves to Tondo (early Philippine history) and Maynila (early Philippine history) in a few hours. Chime in now if you want to add our initial thoughts? Other suggestions are welcome. Please note also that this will be relevant for pages that might be created at a later dates, because there are other similar, significant historical settlements whose names are still in use, such as Pila, Pililla, Taytay, and Cainta.
Thanks everyone! :D - Alternativity ( talk) 16:03, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
As per discussion
The result of the move request was: No consensus. Two listing periods, and we're no closer to a definitive answer. While there's some limited consensus that another name might be appropriate, there is no consensus for the one proposed. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:00, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Kingdom of Tondo →
Tondo (early Philippine history) – Current name is misleading as per current scholarly consensus (see Junker, 1990 and 1998, Scott 1984 and 1994, Jocano 2001, Abinales and Amoroso 2005, PCDSPO 2015, Rafael 2005, etc), although still used in popular media. Matter extensively discussed at
Talk:Kingdom_of_Tondo#On "Kingdom" as a Mis-labelingand
Talk:Datu#2017 Re-opening of "Monarchy" discussion.
A parallel (or at least closely related) move at Talk:Kingdom of Maynila has also been proposed. Thanks - Alternativity ( talk) 06:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. DrStrauss talk 18:54, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Proposed Name | Comment/Support/Oppose |
---|---|
Ancient Tondo (currently a redirect, proposed by Parashumara007 and supported above by Darwgon0801) |
|
Bayan of Tondo (Proposed by No such user, supported above by ) |
|
Historical Bayan of Tondo |
|
Historical Tondo |
|
Kingdom of Tondo (retain current page name, proposed by Shhhhwwww!! above) |
|
Old Tondo |
|
Tondo (city-state) |
|
Tondo (early Philippine history) (current proposal, supported by Gunkarta and Alternativity above ) |
|
Tondo (historical Bayan) |
|
Tondo (historical settlement) (proposed by Juliaantengco above) |
|
Tondo (historical polity) (currently a redirect, proposed by Darwgon0801 above) |
|
Tondo (historical state) |
|
- Oppose and Suggestion Its NOT just a settlement these City-States was ruled by a Rajah and a Paramount ruler and it had a centralized form government , Ancient Tondo was far more better and fit to the nature of Tondo as a kingdom or Polity, as they compose or rajahs and lakans (Rajah is a Sanskrit term for a King and lakan is a Filipino word for a Paramount Ruler), this is based Historical and Documented facts not just a mere alternative terms it also goes to Maynila and Namayan they are centralized City-states not just a mere village either as others think. We should name this article according to the balance of Written records not only to the native oral traditions.
- Ancient Tondo
- Namayan (Polity)
- Maynila (Ancient)
( Parashurama007 ( talk) 04:35, 22 August 2017 (UTC))
Hi. As I said I would in the last edits, a few organized points:
Question: If we choose a different name than the one currently proposed, would we have to restart the nomination process all over again?
That's it for now. Cheers! - Alternativity ( talk) 12:14, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Expanded list of possible names: Consulting the group at large. As far as I can tell, our options seem to be:
Unless the group objects I'll put up a table/matrix in the survey section tomorrow morning, where we can post individual reasons support or oppose each? I'm not sure what the proper procedure is for expanding the number of alternatives for a name change, but a voting matrix/table seems to make sense. Additional suggestions are welcome since we'll be commenting in the table later, anyway. - Alternativity ( talk) 15:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Well, what about " Lakanate of Tondo"? - Darwgon0801
Just FYI, I've revised my comments on each entry so that I can more clearly support to two suggestions: either Tondo (historical polity) (which I still feel is the more technically/academically acceptable choice) or Tondo (historical polity) (which the rest of the community seems to feel is more preferrable). The others that I previously supported are still okay, IMHO, but I'm revising my position to more clearly express my preference. - Alternativity ( talk) 08:58, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
I'm probably late for the votation, but given the reasons posted here, I prefer the renaming of the page as Tondo (Historical Polity) and I explicitly oppose continuation of the use of "Kingdom of Tondo" as name of the article. Clarification on differences between pre-colonial Tondo, pre-colonial Manila and the Luzon mentioned in Portuguese accounts is also necessary. Alternativity, Parashurama007, Darwgon0801 and others. Stricnina ( talk) 19:10, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved as requested. The discussions have been spirited and at time contentious. The energy by all is appreciated. The new title more than complies with WP:AT policies, will serve readers well and reflects the content of the article and the consensus in this discussion. Now is the time to redirect editor energy into improving the article and correcting the concerns already flagged. The article is move protected for six months. Even after that, any RM should present a “compelling case” for a title change consistent with WP:AT policy. Mike Cline ( talk) 12:43, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Kingdom of Tondo →
Tondo (historical polity) – Although there was no consensus on the previously proposed name (
Tondo (early Philippine history)), I believe (a) that the discussion speaks for itself that there IS majority (although not unanimous) consensus that the current name,
Kingdom of Tondo, misrepresents the topic as understood by current scholarship; and (b) that there the discussion has indicated that while the previously suggested name was problematic, another option,
Tondo (historical polity) was more acceptable than both. I am thus re-proposing that this article be renamed to nomenclature more acceptable to the community, as supported in the previous discussion.
Alternativity (
talk)
03:25, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.As I said earlier/above, I thought that since this has been discussed extensively further up on this talk page, I didn't think I needed to rehash the points for why "Kingdom of Tondo" isn't a viable label for this wikipedia article. My understanding of the consensus in the previous discussion is that there was a consensus that "Kingdom of Tondo" was not an acceptable descriptor, but Tondo "(early Philippine history)" was also not viable. I thus thought the next step was to propose the name the community seemed most acceptable during that discussion.
I tried taking salient points from above discussions, but in doing so realized that some points can be expressed better. So I started just writing off the cuff again. Here, then, are some (but far from all) key points in favor of this change:
There are probably a few more points to be made, and a detailed discussion of the inaccuracy of "Kingdom" can be made, if necessary. But I hope this brings up some of the more urgent points. Thanks - Alternativity ( talk) 01:10, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
"Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. (...) When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."
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help) (States that Polity is the accepted term to describe precolonial settlements. Not a "major text within the field", but still, this is the heritage unit of the Office of the President of the Philippines, so that's gotta count for something, preeminence wise)Ambiguous[6] or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered (...) When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.
Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to sources written after the name change is announced. If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match.
- Self-mirroring – Sometimes other sites clone Wikipedia content, which is then passed around the Internet, and more pages built up based upon it (and often not cited), meaning that in reality the source of much of the search engine's findings are actually just copies of Wikipedia's own previous text, not genuine sources.
- Popular usage bias – Popular usage and urban legend is often reported over correctness
- Popular views and perceptions are likely to be more reported. For example, there may be many references to acupuncture and confirming that people are often allergic to animal fur, but it may only be with careful research that it is revealed there are medical peer-reviewed assessments of the former, and that people are usually not allergic to fur, but to the sticky skin particles ("dander") within the fur.
STOP ALREADY THIS IDIOCY BECause irregardless of anything you say Tondo Empire was great and reigned over alost all of Luzon. Our history books explain it even extended to Bicol Peninsula! Do you think Tondo can accomplish all that without kings? This is a problem of Filipinos. Almost ever since, we have no leader! and when we did, we did not FOLLOW them. Stupid, stupid! These Manilacanyang puppets are only jealous because true Philippines history says Tondo was the superior force for so long before the Spanish. Manilacanyang puppets just lie and they should SHUT UP now. Reign05 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:58, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Reign05, those are the facts and you cannot change it. Please do not say something that isn't related to the subject. And by the way, its "Malacañang", not "Manilacanyang". Do not even try to make stupid arguments here because it is not welcome. I'm suspecting you're a sockpuppet of JournalmanManila. - Darwgon0801 ( talk) 11:09, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
What a lot of irrelevant stuff there is above. I'll say again, I think there may be a case in terms of wp:NAMECHANGES. But sorting through it all to tell is beyond me at the moment. Perhaps if I have an hour or two to spare I'll give it a go.
Or, you could have a good read of WP:AT and make a concise, logical case based on it. A look at the essays at wp:official names (which seems to me to completely demolish point 1 above) and even User:Andrewa/How not to rant (especially the section User:Andrewa/How not to rant#How not to rant) might be helpful too. Best. Andrewa ( talk) 03:00, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
Hi. This is to begin a discussion about a previous edit which changed the translation of "Bayan" from "Country" to "Town." The edit was unsourced, but the translation is itself unsourced, as well. And I suppose it's good practice to discuss the ins and outs of this translation here. I reverted the edit on the basis of "Town" being a much more restrictive interpretation of "Bayan", which can also be used to mean mean "Nation." "Country" seems to me to have the benefit of being a similarly broad term which can apply both to "Town" and "Nation." But I realize it's a matter that deserves discussion, so I'm bringing the matter up here on the Talk page in order to seek consensus. Anybody want to comment? - Alternativity ( talk) 16:12, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
My concern was :A king without a monarchy ? (not even a king), because "the king empire dynasty are western anarchonistic etc" while other Contemporary passed as kingdoms and Empires" i think these revisions there done by Fil-ams, non Filipinos and other uninformed on this topic , even the omissions of the titles like Rajah which means king in Sanskrit. These are rather pushing "the new theory" by the grade school level of sugar coated mislead by some of members, while fellow uninformed where goin to accept these Wikipedia infos edited by mascarading trolls , so More review and clean up! from the management. ( Enola gay0 ( talk) 03:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC))
There are many figurines and idols had been find scattered in batangas and isla puting bato in tondo we cannot be surely conclude about they are pure tagalog religion, some of here we
say "this is not made by the locals but rather looted" the findings of ancient smelting shop where the proof of local manufacturing. (03:44, 15 February 2019 (UTC)).
(as i saw an obviously flawed statement in the infobox, which stated anitism is the only religious beliefs of the tagalog aside on Islam, and hinduism and Buddhism where just "elements "? syncretistically adopted. Despite of the artifacts of Avalokitesvarara found in batangas and isla puting bato on Tondo itself, this is a clear signs of a revisionist ideas are intentionally placed, to fit accordingly on their preferred information to be published, the editors where avoiding the terms like esoteric form as they where avoided to show evidences about the existence of these mainland Asian regions in Philippine islands) sort of ultra-austronesian philosophy had been intentionally put on the article. These where needed to be correct and clarify. And the other flaw was the Tondo where just a settlement of tribes not even had a mornarchy because terms like these are western, this are the another type of hypocrisy did by the toxic editors , who playing as a smart guy (but in reality where just arrogant and abusive non Filipinos) which is contrary to Indonesia Thailand Burma and Cambodia accepted and used the term kingdom and empires. Datus and lakan and rajahs are term for a king or a lord, a lord and king are possible signs of a monarchy not a petty tribes. (omitted just to emphasize the austronesianess). ( Enola gay0 ( talk) 04:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC))
Again who ever revisioned the articles information, how come the natives here where Misidentified their own social classes ,that was a silly excuses, the revisionits who collaborate on this where intended "something" to look upon on the article based from their preferred version, Datu and a Rajah and Lakan where equivalent to king, answerable to a King, Ancient Filipinos where not unknown on this 'Monarchial system" , as i observed the author again tries to implied the "Ultra-Austronesian doctrine" on the articles, to dis associate the Philippine kingdoms, from the actual culture where it belongs , and pushing their revisionist new theory and dismissed the sources (in which not accord on their preferences as "outdated".) toxic pinoys and trolls from somewhere where in collaboration to hijack the information, what an untold atrocities .( Enola gay0 ( talk) 13:36, 24 April 2019 (UTC))
PS: I am not insulting or accusing anyone, but who ever revision this article are a type of Opportunists , who cling with the trolls just to emphasize , impose and publish his revisionist ultra-austronesian agenda here in wikipedia with the trolls who abusively using their powers to "Pa-Troll" ,using the corrupt moderators and IP address they could use, and the page where hijacked from its essence of basic logic on the Philippine history articles in safeguard and scott-free to their fellow collaborators. ( Enola gay0 ( talk) 13:23, 26 April 2019 (UTC))
As i looking upon its content, i observe that there are so many misquoted terms like "misidentified " , how can the chroniclers misidentified what they had observed as they where arrived in tondo? Actually and it was feudalism, revisionism dismissed the generic terms as "anarchonistic", or "too western" (possibly they pushing their alternative version of terms based on ultra-Austronesian theory of them) and the editors who revisioned the article may seem trying to intent their preferred version as always insisting ultra-austronesianess . ( Enola gay0 ( talk) 23:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC))
According to the WP:IRRELEVANT guideline, information that clearly has no relevance to the subject named in the article should be removed. Examples of irrelevant sections that make this article too long include the Austronesian origins of Tondo (which is superfluous information as majority of Insular Southeast Asians are Austronesians per default), the etymology of the word Luzon (which properly belongs to another page, perhaps in Wiki entry named Luzon instead of Tondo), the religious beliefs of the Tondo inhabitants (there are already separate pages that discusses such topic in detail, see Indigenous religious beliefs of the Tagalog people and Religion in pre-colonial Philippines). In order to make this page less cluttered and more focused on pre-colonial Tondo itself (not about Luzon, not about the beliefs of the Tagalogs), I suggest to move irrelevant content to their pertinent Wiki entries and reduce the content of this very long entry. Stricnina ( talk) 17:29, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
The historic period must be instated according on the world standard of dating historical eras and period's so please stop making any attempt to create a self-acclaimed dating , Asian infobox where stating what these kingdom where time these polities kingdoms belong to (if on) the antiquity , renaissance or early modern period, In tondo case , from 900 Ad- antiquity [1] [Notes 1] to 1578- early modern period. (maybe the some of the editors will trying to take place to include their enforced options of ultra-austronesian theory altetrnative once again for the "correct" time line for philippines) (maybe another part of intentional placing to their ultra austronesian doctrine , plus i will repeat this , flaw 1. a king without monarchy (just a tribesman) elements where just "adapted" on the asian religion (as they saying that tagalog's where just pure animists and Muslim majority). and third tagalogs (filipinos) where closely related to Samoans and Polynesians. how dare they..(their basis where from a single reference from the theory of Jocano) . this page really need to get a clean up!
( Enola gay0 ( talk) 01:23, 12 June 2019 (UTC))
References
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) feminist ( talk) 11:15, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Tondo (historical polity) → Tundun – WP:Concise. Name used in the Laguna Copperplate Inscription. Shhhhwwww!! ( talk) 10:35, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
This article seems to violate MOS:INFOBOXFLAG. - Sparryx ( talk) 10:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved ( non-admin closure) Bada Kaji ( talk • श्रीमान् गम्भीर) 12:16, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Tondo (historical polity) → Kingdom of Tondo – Was requested by PhilippiHistoria on the wrong page/with the wrong template because "Official Name" [16] I haven't looked into this personally. — Alexis Jazz ( talk or ping me) 08:09, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
This issue of kingdom vs polity were in question over the past years, as im going to raise it again:
- LCI Jayadewa represented the "unnamed King" of Tondo, and compare it to the statements of the "editors guild" ,a polity (mislabled as a kingdom) because of peacockry/anachronism (as if Srivijaya Kederi brunei , Melayu uses the kingdom-empire term) and also as if the Kasumuran, Bhisruta , even Jayadewa himself "cannot understand what type of government they have that time", so these what i called "editor's circle" acting as the authority when it comes on how Filipinos and other nation should view the ancient Philippine politics. the issue here was the irony of content dispute and double standard setup. ( Snopik ( talk) 07:28, 28 December 2021 (UTC))
I do not know if you are
JournalmanManila's sockpuppet, but clearly this map
File:Tondo.png - Wikimedia Commons is not credible. First, it talks about Rajah Alon, who is not a real person. Second, this map is in contrast to the information stated in this Wikipedia page, as well as all the other academic sources. It is obvious that this map is made by a conspiracy theorist or a distorian, with no legitimate basis. Let's also talk about the fact that the creator of this map uses sockpuppets:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sockpuppets_of_JournalmanManila for more information.
Delirium333 (
talk)
08:13, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=Notes>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=Notes}}
template (see the
help page).
![]() | This article is written in Philippine English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, realize, center, travelled) and some terms that are used in it (including jeepney and cyberlibel) may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | A fact from Tondo (historical polity) appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 11 February 2008, and was viewed approximately 4,612 times (
disclaimer) (
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Who is the Raja king that supposed to Lead the battle against the Muslim Bruneian empire? Supposed to be Gambang or Lontok (1430-1450), Even Dayang Kalangitan. (1450-1515)( JournalmanManila ( talk) 01:07, 7 November 2016 (UTC))
This is NOT a flaw. The peer reviewed academic sources in the field don't explicitly say this, so that information is speculative. Adding that here would be a gross violation of Wikipedia rules, as stated in WP:Verifiability and WP:No Original Research.- Alternativity ( talk) 07:10, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi. I have to point out that entire sections in the current article seem to have been created on the assumption that the Lucoes/Luzones are from Tondo. There's no direct evidence of that. I've looked and looked, but as far as I can tell, there are no Reliable Sources stating that Lucoes are from the Pasig River Kingdoms, let alone Tondo. According to WP:Verifiability, all content based on that assertion will have to be deleted, unless such documents can be found. Thanks! - Alternativity ( talk) 10:48, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
And Kingdom of Tondo was from Luzon, (example are: ) Tondo Helped The Siamese Kingdom of Ayuthaya in their City Defense while On the Other hand, 'Tondo Supported Toungoo Dynasty on its Expanisionism in 1547. who they are? Army /warriors/ mercenaries of tondo where tondo at ? Luzon what Portuguese called these mercenaries? Lusung warriors, so in the shorter terms its Lucoes not only a warriors but a traders too.sry for my grammar by the way . ( JournalmanManila ( talk) 12:54, 8 February 2017 (UTC))
May i remind everyone to review or check the sources before conducting a deletion in a particular section And even check the Citations before you delete the entire infobox WP:VERIFIABILIY ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 12:55, 10 April 2017 (UTC))
The deletions are necessary, especially if the sources are bullshit from geocities. When it comes to history, one should provide sources FROM academic peer-reviewed sources. I'll delete most of the information here UNTIL the parts are properly sourced. The extent of the Kingdom of Tondo depicted in the map is also unfounded and is pseudohistory. ( Stricnina)
The map and the rest of the article have as references blogs, websites with no academic peer-reviewed material or books citing Wikipedia itself (e.g. the book "Soils of the Philippines" - https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=sY7EBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=kingdom+of+tondo&source=bl&ots=fJ3K8tTeob&sig=waGJLIKTI0NLMiv4K3ssKFMoqBk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ74W_1ebRAhUBkJQKHSnqDxI4ChDoAQgmMAU#v=onepage&q=kingdom%20of%20tondo&f=false). The page itself is in need of a major overhaul in order to improve its credibility. In the meantime, I will tag all the unfounded statements without proper citations (the statements without citations from books or from peer-reviewed content). Stricnina ( talk) 12:30, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Given how much popular speculation there is on this page, I strongly support ( Stricnina)'s insistence on academic/peer-reviewed sources. One major piece of speculation that I've tagged: the entire section on the "Lucoes" rests upon the assertion that the polities referred to as the "Kingdom of Tondo" and the "Kingdom of Luzon" are the same state - I am not aware of a peer reviewed source that says the two are one and the same. (There are at least two other kingdoms in the immediate geographical location, and power shifted between them over the course of half a millenia, so a definitive identification if at all academically possible, is essential.) Another problem is that the sections discussing trade relations with China tend to take up a Sinocentric POV, overrelying on un-peer-reviewed primary sources and thus blindly accepting Chinese texts' assertions of China's significance. (As a result portraying Tondo as a subservient polity.) On a slightly different tangent: I am unsure what the review process for unsourced or POV images involves, but perhaps this rigorous review should continue there as well. Shouldn't images with speculative content be nominated for deletion? - Alternativity ( talk) 07:04, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article is a mess, with lots of speculation and unverified content, starting with the fact that the Kingdom of Tondo extended far beyond to Ilocos and Bicol when in fact that are no reputable sources that claims this. The only sources being cited are from blogs, websites that are down and can't be reached, and books that cite Wikipedia itself. So I'm going to ask Theseeker2016 to please stop undoing the removal of unverified non-peer-reviewed speculations. Speculations are reserved to blogs, not in Wikipedia pages. Thank you. Stricnina ( talk) 05:43, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I am removing the numerous translations of "Kingdom of Tondo" because there is no point. There are even no academic sources that attest that the polity called itself as a "Kingdom" in the past. We have no sources that testify that Ilocano and Bicolano were actually used as official languages in the past because of very scant sources. Plus, the Ilocano and Bicolano translations are only justified by non-academic non-peer reviewed blogs and articles that are written by anonymous people that claim the extension of the Kingdom of Tondo far beyond to the Ilocos and Bicol regions. I'm suggesting Theseeker2016 to refrain from undoing the removal of dubious content. If you engage in an edit war with me, then so be it. Stricnina ( talk) 05:56, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll be removing citations about Rajah Alon because of the absence of peer-reviewed sources about him. I suggest Theseeker2016 and Jim1138 to stop undoing the removal of dubious content. This Wikipedia article is a mess and it is our job to present an article that is backed up by academic peer-reviewed sources and not blogs written anonymously nor books that cited Wikipedia itself. Stricnina ( talk) 05:56, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I strongly support Stricnina actions to clean up this page from speculations and somewhat bordering "history fabrications", insist on only including academic/peer-reviewed sources, valid references, preverably published history books, avoiding blogs or sources that citing wikipedia, and deleting dubious sections. If Tondo's history is unclear, so be it, at least that's the fact. I think this is the main weakness on constructing Pre-Hispanic Philippines history article; scarce historical evidences and too little historical sources and materials for historians to work with, coupled with weak historiography discipline. But that does not means wikipedia editor could fabricate its history. Keep up the good workǃ Gunkarta talk 12:12, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
There is no justification in citing a book that cites a Wikipedia article. For example, this book is cited:
Stop citing this book. You can't cite a book that cites Wikipedia. It doesn't make any sense. Theseeker2016. Stricnina ( talk) 08:24, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
This blog is also cited: https://philippinebuddhism.wordpress.com/2014/11/09/early-buddhism-in-the-philippines/ The blog is written by an anonymous person with no known academic background. There are no citations in that blog and it is full of speculations and bullshit. Every statement that cites this blog will be removed in the absence of further verification. Theseeker2016 Stricnina ( talk) 08:42, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
This source is being cited: http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/opinion/view/20091011-229561/The-Indian-in-the-Filipino The page is down and can't be reached. Every statement that cites this blog will be removed in the absence of further verification. Theseeker2016 Stricnina ( talk) 08:54, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
This so-called Rajah Alon can be traced to this blog written by an anonymous author with no known academic background: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/philippines/history-tondo.htm The blog doesn't cite any books or verifiable articles. I have zero tolerance over bullshit. Theseeker2016, Darwgon0801 and friends should take note. Rajah Alon is going to be deleted. Stricnina ( talk) 09:09, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site being cited: http://www.bayangpinagpala.org/ Too bad it's down. Theseeker2016, Darwgon0801 and friends should look for other academic peer-reviewed sources or I'll delete every claim that cites an unreachable webpage. Thank you. Stricnina ( talk) 09:22, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Un reliable ? The LCI (which is a 900 Ad almost a millennia-old artifacts and works of Scholars are arent enough? and The Blogs you called are a tertiary and Secondary sources with the backing of the Reliable Sources from the names of Filipino and Dutch anthropologist available its sites which contain information and its free as you know (Based on academic works i mentioned) even the Chinese and Spanish written records are unreliable too? Un-Accademic? may i remind everyone No one can remove until the Consensus has created and i shall follow it. WP CONSENSUS.( Theseeker2016 ( talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 10:48, 15 April 2017 (UTC) I mean if we have to clean up, We must make sure that we have a proper reading of the Reliable sources , and before we add maintenance stubs make sure we put in the right areas (otherwise, it will only look stubbish) and not good for an article, and Before we Remove we must Follow WP CONSENSUS thank you ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 10:58, 15 April 2017 (UTC))
I want this, Theseeker2016: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research
Theseeker2016, you are not addressing the fact that there are NO sources that prove Rajah Alon's existence, for example. You're evading the argument altogether with your wordy paragraphs. I insist on ACADEMIC and PEER-REVIEWED sources. Anonymous blogs are NOT academic sources and Wikipedia is supposed to NOT tolerate original research without proper citations. Stricnina ( talk) 11:06, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site that is cited as a source but is unreachable: http://mb.com.ph/articles/362013/philippinesthailand-diplomatic-relations-day#.UQjTox03uVI The site is supposed to verify the Philippine-Thailand relations but it is down now. Theseeker2016, Darwgon0801 and friends, if in the future I decide to remove statements that cite this unverifiable source, I would like you all to stop interfering with the clean-up. Thank you very much. Stricnina ( talk) 16:05, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site on 404: http://www.mts.net/~pmorrow/lcieng.htm . I will suggest to everyone ( Theseeker2016 and friends) to use multiple citations from reliable secondary and primary sources (academic and PEER-REVIEWED, preferably books) to avoid multiple sources on 404 in the future. Stricnina ( talk) 05:38, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
An unrelated site is being used as a source for the following sentence: Initially the kingdom revered Buddhist-Hindu influence as the predominant religion. The said site is the following: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/10771/pg10771-images.html I suggest to my fellow armchair historians like Theseeker2016 and friends to STOP citing completely unrelated websites to an unfounded statement. Use a reliable secondary or primary source which is ON POINT. In the absence of further verification, that sentence will be removed or reformulated based on available reliable sources. Thank you very much. Stricnina ( talk) 05:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site without verifiable sources and citations: http://www.buddhist-tourism.com/countries/philippines/buddhism-in-philippines.html The site is written by an anonymous author with no academic background whatsoever. Stop citing a blog without citations from the works of known historians such as Nick Joaquin, Ambeth Ocampo, W.H. Scott, etc.! Every statement that dares cite the website as a source will be removed in the future. Stricnina ( talk) 05:55, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Agreed and support Stricnina suggestions and actions, please proceed. Gunkarta talk 12:15, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
As previously stated, I support the move towards removing any sources that are not either academic/peer-reviewed or recognized by an official entity such as the National Historical Institute (or at least rewriting them so their assertions are clearly marked as conjecture, and by whom). Which means I generally side with Stricnina on this, although perhaps not in the case of all edits. I'll make a new discussion section, I'll identify a few sources whose reliability has been ruled on by the community in the past. Thanks. (BTW, folks, if you're tagging others in your posts, it may be helpful to put a dash before the tildes that autosign your signature, so that your singnature is marked off from other names. :D Just a suggestion.) - Alternativity ( talk) 15:06, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
As promised in the previous section, I'm placing a summary and list of links to previous community discussions establishing consensus on the reliability of certain sources.
Source | Summary of Consensus | Discussion |
---|---|---|
watawat.net | A discussion on the reliability of watawat.net was already discussed and resolved in 2011. | The relevant discussion is at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_97#.22Lakandula.27s_Flag.22_is_speculative |
globalsources.org as a source for Philippine prehistory and protohistory | A discussion on the reliability of globalsources.org as a source for Philippine prehistory and protohistory took place in December 2016, and the consensus was that while globalsources.org is often a reliable source for contemporary military topics, it isn't generally reliable as a source for Philippine history. The specific page "History-Tondo" was noted unreliable given it didn't cite its sources and seemed to use dated language. | The discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_217#globalsecurity.org_as_a_source_on_Philippine_Prehistory_and_Protohistory |
"The Soils of the Philippines" By Carating,Rodelio B., Raymundo G. Galanta, and Clarita D. Bacatio. | This was brought up with the Philippine Wikimedia community in 2017, with the consensus that it should NOT be used as per WP:CIRCULAR. | The discussion can be found at Wikipedia_talk:Tambayan_Philippines/Archive40#.22The_Soils_of_the_Philippines.22_as_a_History_of_the_Philippines_Source |
I hope this helps! Thanks! - Alternativity ( talk) 15:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Another site without any useful content is cited by this Wikipedia article: http://vedicempire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=26 I suggest Theseeker2016, Alternativity and friends to STOP citing a webpage that is down and has its "domain name in sale". Thank you very much. Stricnina ( talk) 18:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
This source can be classified as a primary source: http://www.lib.kobe-u.ac.jp/directory/sumita/5A-161/volume05.html It is being used as a citation for the existence of a certain "Lakan Suko". Since according to Wikipedia guidelines, "any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation", I'm going to ask every contributor here to verify the source or preferably cite a reliable peer-reviewed or academic secondary source that specifically mentions the very existence of Lakan Suko. In the absence of such evidences, the statements about Lakan Suko might be removed for lack of citations. Stricnina ( talk) 11:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
i watching what so called improvements sorry for the term salafi but a ultra-mainstreamism i meant , irrelevant? that was the way here im still civil on that mood. if i find out any flaws here it will be restore if they called me uncivilized for my term then so be it ...at least i will give this page an appropriate place according to Proper links and references plus , i will prevent this page to become 0-info at all! but i dont believe it will turn to that momentum. ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 08:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC))
Theseeker2016, if you have peer-reviewed sources (not BLOGS without academic citations), you should have been citing them by now instead of wasting time writing useless stuff here. If you have peer-reviewed sources, cite them as per Wikipedia Guidelines. Stop the useless banter and cooperate by following the guidelines. Remember that I fully support WP:VERIFIABILITY and NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH and I do not tolerate uncited statements in this Wiki page. Stricnina ( talk) 10:17, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Broad community consensus on such matters can be achieved by raising the matter up at the Reliable sources noticeboard. If some editors reject the standards set by the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources policy, then none of us have any choice but to bring this up there, and to present arguments based on the standards set in Wikipedia:Reliable_sources. - Alternativity ( talk) 13:10, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Ughk. Forgive me for ranting, but this incessant promoting of fringe theories and rejection of scholarly neutrality (as expresed in Wikipedia's Reliable Sources policy) is really getting on my nerves.
We just went through the whole nine yards of disproving(Scott, '84; Go '05) that Tondo was politically dependent on China. Now people are trying to make it look like Tondo was somehow a subject of India (Which is ridiculous because no thassalocratic empire of that period the naval capabilities necessary to project their political power THAT far)?
Aren't the universally-acknowledged (but indirect! see Scott, 84; Scott, '94; Potet '13; Jocano '01; Go '05) political influence of the Southeast Asian thassalocracies enough?
What is this obsession with being slaves to some empire?!?! What is this refusal to acknowledge the scholar-acknowledged consensus that these were fully indpendent political entities (Scott, 84; Scott, '94; Potet '13; Jocano '01; Go '05; Alejandro '04; Harper '04; Odal-Devora '04) with their own fully-formed although foreign-influenced cultures and economies? Why this willingness to swallow contemporary propaganda? And why do today's edits in particular make it sound as if anitism/animism is somehow inferior to Hinduism and Buddhism?
I'm sorry, but given the rejection of academic orthodoxy, these are clear cases of anti-nativist lies, and I have to call this out for what it is, whether the editors concerned realize it or not: imperialist propaganda. - Alternativity ( talk) 07:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
That is what your sources are saying, but that's not what the article says the way it's currently written. The paragraph structure on the article - largely because of the insistence on catchphrases - implies political control, rather than just cultural influence. If you don't mean that, then the text (as it is on the page right now) is saying something you don't want it to say. People would not be so mad if you please phrased your edits more carefully and neutrally, and followed the strict rules set in WP:Reliable sources. In this case, for example: if you want to talk about Indian cultural influence, discuss it in a new section about cultural influences, not in the lede paragraph where you're supposed to summarize the most fundamental (meaning political) characteristics of the article's subject. Me, I acknowledge the cultural influence of India, and in fact, I want to write a section on that, but I have to study the texts carefully first and double check the reliability of sources. Adding new sections and new information isn't bad. In fact there's a lot of material in the various journals that aren't here yet. But you have to put them in very carefully and screening your sources for academic rigor or you'll end up either (a) misrepresenting the ideas in the articles, or (b) citing propaganda articles (see Fringe theories). That's why cleaning up takes so long. Careful quality control is all we ask for. (And better sentence writing and paragraph structure would be a big help.) - Alternativity ( talk) 11:08, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
If you have any problems with a source being removed, I highly recommend you bring it up at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard, the most appropriate venue for seeking community consensus on such disagreements. Then leave a note at the WikiProject Philippines talk page so they can comment on the RS Noticeboard too. That way more experienced wikipedians can discuss and assess the reliability of the source as per wikipedia rules. - Alternativity ( talk) 20:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I see this article has soo many flaws in historiography discipline and perspective. Do we even sure that the 9th century Kingdom of Tondo mentioned in LCI was the same polity as the later 14th century Saludung or Selurong mentioned in Nagarakretagama, also the same as the 16th century Luções, and the same (continuation) of polities in pre-Islamic and pre-hispanic Philippines? Assuming that there was a solid continuous kingdom stretched from 9th century to late 16th century based on soo few evidences is outrageous in historiography discipline. This article has stretch too far by assuming that they were one solid continuous polity/kingdom/dynasty. In my Indonesian history perspective, this error is like assuming (and combining) that 4th century Tarumanagara was continued to 9th century Medang Mataram all the way to 14th century Majapahit, and think of them as one big happy family of continuous kingdom/dynasty, only based on the fact that they are located in the same Java island, in fact they weren't continuous kingdom/dynasty. We should focus and stick to the fact in the name where Tundun in LCI mentioned, and Dongdu from Chinese source. Connection with later polities/entities, may it be Seludong, Maynila, Luções, etc. are discouraged without reliable sources and peer reviewed articles. Gunkarta talk 13:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
And the name Tondo are sanskrit with the elements of Old Tagalog and Old Malay From the LCI so it is possible that its not a Chinese Name Chinese often translated names according to their way of Pinyin which is Dongdu ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 03:05, 2 May 2017 (UTC))
Pires [ca. 1500] twice mentions that the junks of the Malays and Javanese were not allowed to proceed to the city of Guangzhou because of the fear in which they were held, but when describing details of the fear in which they were held, but when describing details of the city he adds, "so the Lucoes [Luzons] say who have been there. These Lucoes demand some attention..."They [Luzons] have two or three junks, at most. They take the merchandise to Burney [Brunei] and from there they come to Melaka, . . . The Bruneians go to the lands of the Luzons to buy gold."....The Luzons were in fact the principal Melaka traders to China, which is difficult to understand unless they had brought with them to Melaka some knowledge of Chinese commerce and customs. It seems probable that the Luzon-Brunei connection arose when both centres were rising into commercial significance in consequence of their close connection with China in the early fifteenth century.
- Alilunas-Rodgers, Kristine, and Anthony Reid. Sojourners and Settlers: Histories of Southeast Asia and the Chinese. Honolulu: Univ. of Hawai'i Press, 2001, 34-5. ( Theseeker2016 ( talk) 03:05, 2 May 2017 (UTC))
I think the name/term Selurong came from the Lobed River Mullet.
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Just FYI: the long list of alternative names and orthographies has been moved down to their own section ( Alternative names and orthographies) as per WP:LEADCLUTTER (aka Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Separate_section_usage ), which states:
...if there are more than two alternative names, these names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section; it is recommended that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves. Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead.
Thanks. - Alternativity ( talk) 03:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
Hi. This response to User:Parashurama007's query on my talkpage regarding why "Kingdom" is a mislabeling, based on scholarly interpretation of the original texts.
The assertions of mislabeling aren’t mine, they’re the result of current scholarly consensus. The scholars who most directly said this are F. Landa Jocano, William Henry Scott and Laura Lee Junker, but Vicente Rafael also had important inputs. The second paragaph actually summarizes this already:
Travelers from from monarchical cultures[25] who had contacts with Tondo (including the Chinese, Portuguese, and the Spanish)[26] often initially mislabeled[25][26][6][1] it as the "Kingdom of Tondo". Early Augustinian chronicler Pedro de San Buenaventura explained this error as early as 1613 in his Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala,[21] but the label was nevertheless later adapted by the popular literature of the Spanish colonial era because of the influence of the Hispanic linguistic tradition.[14]
I’ll try to add a more expanded (but still summarized) set of points here. (Thanks to User:Sulbud by the way, for the good discussion on this subject which we had elsewhere. Also: I'm not sure about the exact year of some of the citations, since I'm typing from memory; I'll recheck them later.)
1. A Quick Clarification: the Laguna Copperplate Inscription doesn’t say anything about a king, it says “commander in chief” (pamegat senāpati).(Postma, 1992) I've seen Senāpati translated as "Admiral" (Dery, 2001), but never as "King."
2. Junker (1990, 1998) notes that Song and Ming Dynasty records were not firsthand observations
3. Junker (1998) notes that the Song and Ming Dynasty uses of the term Huang/Wang were interpretations the world was filtered through their Sinocentric worldview
4. Junker (1998) also asserts that the use of the term Huang in the Song and Ming Dynasty records seems to be a political justification for maintaining the Tondo-Maynila monopoly on Chinese trade; they used the term so that the Tondo-Maynila would sound more “acceptable” trading partners to the imperialist worldviews of the courts.
5. Scott (1994) cites San Buenaventura (1613) explaining that the tagalogs did not call their rulers “kings”. They had a term for king, which was “hari”, but this strictly did not apply to local rulers.
6. Scott (1994) also cites Rajah Sulayman (in the accounts of the 1571 Goiti expedition to Pampanga and Bulacan, mostly documented in Blair and Robertson Vol. 3) himself saying “there was no absolute king in these lands”
7. Scott (1994)cites San Buenaventura (1613) saying that “large polities consisting of several barangays” (this describes Maynila, Tondo, and Taguig) was called a Bayan.
8. Jocano (2001) asserts that the relationships that characterized the relationship of Filipino rulers with the other members of the community (lower ranked maginoo, timawa, and alipin) were more reciprocal than those in a monarchy.
9. Junker (1990, 1998) notes, by the way, that the Datus also did not fall into the categories traditionally associated with evolutionary chiefdoms; strictly speaking, they also weren’t chiefs. (When Junker uses the word "Chief", she puts it in quotation marks.)
10. We have a specific local term describing these polities: “Bayan.” We don’t need to import/introduce new western terms to describe these polities.
11. The rulers of Maynila and Tondo were called Datu, Rajah, or Lakan. They had specific titles. We don’t need to import/introduce new western terms to describe them.
12. Vicente Rafael (2005) notes that the term popular entertainers in the Spanish colonial era eventually used the term “Kingdom” because they didn’t have the words to properly describe the political structure of early Philippine societies, so this is where the mislabeling of Tondo and Maynila as “Kingdoms” began.
Some personal notes: What I'm watching out for is technically accurate operational definition of the social structure. Jocano and Junker provide significant details of how these early Philippine settlements were unique entities, which do NOT fall into convenient western categories. Scott goes into great detail about the original documents and agrees with that assessment. Other historians and historiographers say the same thing, but mostly referencing the lifework of these three. (Because the scale of the archival research they did used to take a lifetime, back when the manuscripts were not yet digitized).
I still don't actually understand why some editors seem to believe "kingdom" is somehow a more desirable description. Perhaps because of some surviving belief in nobility? But allowing such beliefs to color the text of wikipedia articles would be a violation of WP:POV, wouldn't it? I only understood this better when I ran into Vicente Rafael's 2005 explanation that the use of the term "Kaharian" was popularized in Spanish era Awit and Korido performances. So I see now that while "kingdom" might not be technically accurate for early Tagalog polities in the political or sociological sense, the term Kaharian was used in non-technical sources and venues. So I think "popular mislabelled" is a good compromise.
I've done my best to sum up my points, but I hope the sources speak for themselves. May I also seek opinions or inputs from
User:Sulbud,
User:Gintong Liwanag Ng Araw,
User:Stricnina,
User:Gunkarta, (and maybe
User:Darwgon0801 and
User:Wtmitchell?) who have constructively participated in these discussions or edits before? Thanks! -
Alternativity (
talk)
03:54, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
Hi, Mr.
Alternativity. I think there's no opinion I can give since you've already explained it firmly and you have the sources I don't have. By the way, is there any chance that you'll rename this article? (specifically as "Tondo (historical polity)", also to Maynila as "Maynila (historical polity)") Since I saw your edits in
Maynila and others that you seem want to redirect in that way. Or you'll just keep it since it was more popular. -
Darwgon0801 (
talk)
11:33, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Alternativity's reasonings. Even the oldest transcription linked to Tundun, the Laguna Copperplate did not mention any title of raja (king), only pamegat (official), senāpati (generals), and nāyaka (local community leaders). So far no prasasti (stone stele/inscription), linga or temple ever erected and discovered in the region. By examining this inscription, could means Tundun/Tondo was not a kingdom in classical Hindu/Buddhist sense, it is more likely a local provincial polity with a touch of Hindu/Buddhist influences, probably came from outside of Philippines archipelago. Or maybe the inscription was not a royal one, only concerning lesser officials; addressed only as high as senapati and nayaka. I think Tondo was just a minor polity, not yet a kingdom in classic Hindu/Buddhist sense. — Gunkarta talk 16:00, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
The fourth day of the waning moon, Monday. On this occasion, Lady Angkatan, and her relative whose name is Bukah, the children of the Honorable Namwaran, were awarded a document of complete pardon from the Commander-in-Chief of Tundun, represented by the Lord Minister of Pailah, Jayadewa.
Her rulers, based in their capital, Tondo ( Chinese: 東 都; pinyin: dōngdū) were acknowledged not as mere chieftains, but as kings . [2]
And In reference to the King these are what mentioned by historians attributed to the of Etymology of "Lakandula":
Banaw was the given name of the lord of Tondo at the time of the Spanish advent, and his title "Lakan" refers to a monarch and was the equivalent of "Rajah" or "King".' [3] [4] This leaves the matter of the addendum "dula" to be settled.
So, this is what we need to study of these issues, to avoid the pseudo-historian (Anarchonism) content here and for the sake of Balance and Neutrality in this article ( WP:NPOV) i will help to look for the further references and clean ups. Palasulam-ang talk
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If we're looking at more neutral names, I think the following are our options
I think we can dismiss "Ancient Tondo", Tondo (Chiefdom), and Tondo (village) for now, unless someone wants to make a strong argument for them.
Personally I think Tondo (historical polity) is still the academically most acceptable choice; Tondo (early Philippine history) is very long, but maybe it's the most convenient compromise. If the other suggestions don't prevail, I'll propose moves to Tondo (early Philippine history) and Maynila (early Philippine history) in a few hours. Chime in now if you want to add our initial thoughts? Other suggestions are welcome. Please note also that this will be relevant for pages that might be created at a later dates, because there are other similar, significant historical settlements whose names are still in use, such as Pila, Pililla, Taytay, and Cainta.
Thanks everyone! :D - Alternativity ( talk) 16:03, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
As per discussion
The result of the move request was: No consensus. Two listing periods, and we're no closer to a definitive answer. While there's some limited consensus that another name might be appropriate, there is no consensus for the one proposed. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:00, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Kingdom of Tondo →
Tondo (early Philippine history) – Current name is misleading as per current scholarly consensus (see Junker, 1990 and 1998, Scott 1984 and 1994, Jocano 2001, Abinales and Amoroso 2005, PCDSPO 2015, Rafael 2005, etc), although still used in popular media. Matter extensively discussed at
Talk:Kingdom_of_Tondo#On "Kingdom" as a Mis-labelingand
Talk:Datu#2017 Re-opening of "Monarchy" discussion.
A parallel (or at least closely related) move at Talk:Kingdom of Maynila has also been proposed. Thanks - Alternativity ( talk) 06:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. DrStrauss talk 18:54, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Proposed Name | Comment/Support/Oppose |
---|---|
Ancient Tondo (currently a redirect, proposed by Parashumara007 and supported above by Darwgon0801) |
|
Bayan of Tondo (Proposed by No such user, supported above by ) |
|
Historical Bayan of Tondo |
|
Historical Tondo |
|
Kingdom of Tondo (retain current page name, proposed by Shhhhwwww!! above) |
|
Old Tondo |
|
Tondo (city-state) |
|
Tondo (early Philippine history) (current proposal, supported by Gunkarta and Alternativity above ) |
|
Tondo (historical Bayan) |
|
Tondo (historical settlement) (proposed by Juliaantengco above) |
|
Tondo (historical polity) (currently a redirect, proposed by Darwgon0801 above) |
|
Tondo (historical state) |
|
- Oppose and Suggestion Its NOT just a settlement these City-States was ruled by a Rajah and a Paramount ruler and it had a centralized form government , Ancient Tondo was far more better and fit to the nature of Tondo as a kingdom or Polity, as they compose or rajahs and lakans (Rajah is a Sanskrit term for a King and lakan is a Filipino word for a Paramount Ruler), this is based Historical and Documented facts not just a mere alternative terms it also goes to Maynila and Namayan they are centralized City-states not just a mere village either as others think. We should name this article according to the balance of Written records not only to the native oral traditions.
- Ancient Tondo
- Namayan (Polity)
- Maynila (Ancient)
( Parashurama007 ( talk) 04:35, 22 August 2017 (UTC))
Hi. As I said I would in the last edits, a few organized points:
Question: If we choose a different name than the one currently proposed, would we have to restart the nomination process all over again?
That's it for now. Cheers! - Alternativity ( talk) 12:14, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Expanded list of possible names: Consulting the group at large. As far as I can tell, our options seem to be:
Unless the group objects I'll put up a table/matrix in the survey section tomorrow morning, where we can post individual reasons support or oppose each? I'm not sure what the proper procedure is for expanding the number of alternatives for a name change, but a voting matrix/table seems to make sense. Additional suggestions are welcome since we'll be commenting in the table later, anyway. - Alternativity ( talk) 15:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Well, what about " Lakanate of Tondo"? - Darwgon0801
Just FYI, I've revised my comments on each entry so that I can more clearly support to two suggestions: either Tondo (historical polity) (which I still feel is the more technically/academically acceptable choice) or Tondo (historical polity) (which the rest of the community seems to feel is more preferrable). The others that I previously supported are still okay, IMHO, but I'm revising my position to more clearly express my preference. - Alternativity ( talk) 08:58, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
I'm probably late for the votation, but given the reasons posted here, I prefer the renaming of the page as Tondo (Historical Polity) and I explicitly oppose continuation of the use of "Kingdom of Tondo" as name of the article. Clarification on differences between pre-colonial Tondo, pre-colonial Manila and the Luzon mentioned in Portuguese accounts is also necessary. Alternativity, Parashurama007, Darwgon0801 and others. Stricnina ( talk) 19:10, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved as requested. The discussions have been spirited and at time contentious. The energy by all is appreciated. The new title more than complies with WP:AT policies, will serve readers well and reflects the content of the article and the consensus in this discussion. Now is the time to redirect editor energy into improving the article and correcting the concerns already flagged. The article is move protected for six months. Even after that, any RM should present a “compelling case” for a title change consistent with WP:AT policy. Mike Cline ( talk) 12:43, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Kingdom of Tondo →
Tondo (historical polity) – Although there was no consensus on the previously proposed name (
Tondo (early Philippine history)), I believe (a) that the discussion speaks for itself that there IS majority (although not unanimous) consensus that the current name,
Kingdom of Tondo, misrepresents the topic as understood by current scholarship; and (b) that there the discussion has indicated that while the previously suggested name was problematic, another option,
Tondo (historical polity) was more acceptable than both. I am thus re-proposing that this article be renamed to nomenclature more acceptable to the community, as supported in the previous discussion.
Alternativity (
talk)
03:25, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.As I said earlier/above, I thought that since this has been discussed extensively further up on this talk page, I didn't think I needed to rehash the points for why "Kingdom of Tondo" isn't a viable label for this wikipedia article. My understanding of the consensus in the previous discussion is that there was a consensus that "Kingdom of Tondo" was not an acceptable descriptor, but Tondo "(early Philippine history)" was also not viable. I thus thought the next step was to propose the name the community seemed most acceptable during that discussion.
I tried taking salient points from above discussions, but in doing so realized that some points can be expressed better. So I started just writing off the cuff again. Here, then, are some (but far from all) key points in favor of this change:
There are probably a few more points to be made, and a detailed discussion of the inaccuracy of "Kingdom" can be made, if necessary. But I hope this brings up some of the more urgent points. Thanks - Alternativity ( talk) 01:10, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
"Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. (...) When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."
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help) (States, in a multipage discussion,that precolonial Philippine settlements were not monarchies. This is essentially a later version of the out of print Philippine prehistory: An anthropological overview of the beginnings of Filipino society and culture, 1975){{
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help) (States that Polity is the accepted term to describe precolonial settlements. Not a "major text within the field", but still, this is the heritage unit of the Office of the President of the Philippines, so that's gotta count for something, preeminence wise)Ambiguous[6] or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered (...) When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.
Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to sources written after the name change is announced. If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match.
- Self-mirroring – Sometimes other sites clone Wikipedia content, which is then passed around the Internet, and more pages built up based upon it (and often not cited), meaning that in reality the source of much of the search engine's findings are actually just copies of Wikipedia's own previous text, not genuine sources.
- Popular usage bias – Popular usage and urban legend is often reported over correctness
- Popular views and perceptions are likely to be more reported. For example, there may be many references to acupuncture and confirming that people are often allergic to animal fur, but it may only be with careful research that it is revealed there are medical peer-reviewed assessments of the former, and that people are usually not allergic to fur, but to the sticky skin particles ("dander") within the fur.
STOP ALREADY THIS IDIOCY BECause irregardless of anything you say Tondo Empire was great and reigned over alost all of Luzon. Our history books explain it even extended to Bicol Peninsula! Do you think Tondo can accomplish all that without kings? This is a problem of Filipinos. Almost ever since, we have no leader! and when we did, we did not FOLLOW them. Stupid, stupid! These Manilacanyang puppets are only jealous because true Philippines history says Tondo was the superior force for so long before the Spanish. Manilacanyang puppets just lie and they should SHUT UP now. Reign05 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:58, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Reign05, those are the facts and you cannot change it. Please do not say something that isn't related to the subject. And by the way, its "Malacañang", not "Manilacanyang". Do not even try to make stupid arguments here because it is not welcome. I'm suspecting you're a sockpuppet of JournalmanManila. - Darwgon0801 ( talk) 11:09, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
What a lot of irrelevant stuff there is above. I'll say again, I think there may be a case in terms of wp:NAMECHANGES. But sorting through it all to tell is beyond me at the moment. Perhaps if I have an hour or two to spare I'll give it a go.
Or, you could have a good read of WP:AT and make a concise, logical case based on it. A look at the essays at wp:official names (which seems to me to completely demolish point 1 above) and even User:Andrewa/How not to rant (especially the section User:Andrewa/How not to rant#How not to rant) might be helpful too. Best. Andrewa ( talk) 03:00, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
Hi. This is to begin a discussion about a previous edit which changed the translation of "Bayan" from "Country" to "Town." The edit was unsourced, but the translation is itself unsourced, as well. And I suppose it's good practice to discuss the ins and outs of this translation here. I reverted the edit on the basis of "Town" being a much more restrictive interpretation of "Bayan", which can also be used to mean mean "Nation." "Country" seems to me to have the benefit of being a similarly broad term which can apply both to "Town" and "Nation." But I realize it's a matter that deserves discussion, so I'm bringing the matter up here on the Talk page in order to seek consensus. Anybody want to comment? - Alternativity ( talk) 16:12, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
My concern was :A king without a monarchy ? (not even a king), because "the king empire dynasty are western anarchonistic etc" while other Contemporary passed as kingdoms and Empires" i think these revisions there done by Fil-ams, non Filipinos and other uninformed on this topic , even the omissions of the titles like Rajah which means king in Sanskrit. These are rather pushing "the new theory" by the grade school level of sugar coated mislead by some of members, while fellow uninformed where goin to accept these Wikipedia infos edited by mascarading trolls , so More review and clean up! from the management. ( Enola gay0 ( talk) 03:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC))
There are many figurines and idols had been find scattered in batangas and isla puting bato in tondo we cannot be surely conclude about they are pure tagalog religion, some of here we
say "this is not made by the locals but rather looted" the findings of ancient smelting shop where the proof of local manufacturing. (03:44, 15 February 2019 (UTC)).
(as i saw an obviously flawed statement in the infobox, which stated anitism is the only religious beliefs of the tagalog aside on Islam, and hinduism and Buddhism where just "elements "? syncretistically adopted. Despite of the artifacts of Avalokitesvarara found in batangas and isla puting bato on Tondo itself, this is a clear signs of a revisionist ideas are intentionally placed, to fit accordingly on their preferred information to be published, the editors where avoiding the terms like esoteric form as they where avoided to show evidences about the existence of these mainland Asian regions in Philippine islands) sort of ultra-austronesian philosophy had been intentionally put on the article. These where needed to be correct and clarify. And the other flaw was the Tondo where just a settlement of tribes not even had a mornarchy because terms like these are western, this are the another type of hypocrisy did by the toxic editors , who playing as a smart guy (but in reality where just arrogant and abusive non Filipinos) which is contrary to Indonesia Thailand Burma and Cambodia accepted and used the term kingdom and empires. Datus and lakan and rajahs are term for a king or a lord, a lord and king are possible signs of a monarchy not a petty tribes. (omitted just to emphasize the austronesianess). ( Enola gay0 ( talk) 04:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC))
Again who ever revisioned the articles information, how come the natives here where Misidentified their own social classes ,that was a silly excuses, the revisionits who collaborate on this where intended "something" to look upon on the article based from their preferred version, Datu and a Rajah and Lakan where equivalent to king, answerable to a King, Ancient Filipinos where not unknown on this 'Monarchial system" , as i observed the author again tries to implied the "Ultra-Austronesian doctrine" on the articles, to dis associate the Philippine kingdoms, from the actual culture where it belongs , and pushing their revisionist new theory and dismissed the sources (in which not accord on their preferences as "outdated".) toxic pinoys and trolls from somewhere where in collaboration to hijack the information, what an untold atrocities .( Enola gay0 ( talk) 13:36, 24 April 2019 (UTC))
PS: I am not insulting or accusing anyone, but who ever revision this article are a type of Opportunists , who cling with the trolls just to emphasize , impose and publish his revisionist ultra-austronesian agenda here in wikipedia with the trolls who abusively using their powers to "Pa-Troll" ,using the corrupt moderators and IP address they could use, and the page where hijacked from its essence of basic logic on the Philippine history articles in safeguard and scott-free to their fellow collaborators. ( Enola gay0 ( talk) 13:23, 26 April 2019 (UTC))
As i looking upon its content, i observe that there are so many misquoted terms like "misidentified " , how can the chroniclers misidentified what they had observed as they where arrived in tondo? Actually and it was feudalism, revisionism dismissed the generic terms as "anarchonistic", or "too western" (possibly they pushing their alternative version of terms based on ultra-Austronesian theory of them) and the editors who revisioned the article may seem trying to intent their preferred version as always insisting ultra-austronesianess . ( Enola gay0 ( talk) 23:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC))
According to the WP:IRRELEVANT guideline, information that clearly has no relevance to the subject named in the article should be removed. Examples of irrelevant sections that make this article too long include the Austronesian origins of Tondo (which is superfluous information as majority of Insular Southeast Asians are Austronesians per default), the etymology of the word Luzon (which properly belongs to another page, perhaps in Wiki entry named Luzon instead of Tondo), the religious beliefs of the Tondo inhabitants (there are already separate pages that discusses such topic in detail, see Indigenous religious beliefs of the Tagalog people and Religion in pre-colonial Philippines). In order to make this page less cluttered and more focused on pre-colonial Tondo itself (not about Luzon, not about the beliefs of the Tagalogs), I suggest to move irrelevant content to their pertinent Wiki entries and reduce the content of this very long entry. Stricnina ( talk) 17:29, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
The historic period must be instated according on the world standard of dating historical eras and period's so please stop making any attempt to create a self-acclaimed dating , Asian infobox where stating what these kingdom where time these polities kingdoms belong to (if on) the antiquity , renaissance or early modern period, In tondo case , from 900 Ad- antiquity [1] [Notes 1] to 1578- early modern period. (maybe the some of the editors will trying to take place to include their enforced options of ultra-austronesian theory altetrnative once again for the "correct" time line for philippines) (maybe another part of intentional placing to their ultra austronesian doctrine , plus i will repeat this , flaw 1. a king without monarchy (just a tribesman) elements where just "adapted" on the asian religion (as they saying that tagalog's where just pure animists and Muslim majority). and third tagalogs (filipinos) where closely related to Samoans and Polynesians. how dare they..(their basis where from a single reference from the theory of Jocano) . this page really need to get a clean up!
( Enola gay0 ( talk) 01:23, 12 June 2019 (UTC))
References
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) feminist ( talk) 11:15, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Tondo (historical polity) → Tundun – WP:Concise. Name used in the Laguna Copperplate Inscription. Shhhhwwww!! ( talk) 10:35, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
This article seems to violate MOS:INFOBOXFLAG. - Sparryx ( talk) 10:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved ( non-admin closure) Bada Kaji ( talk • श्रीमान् गम्भीर) 12:16, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Tondo (historical polity) → Kingdom of Tondo – Was requested by PhilippiHistoria on the wrong page/with the wrong template because "Official Name" [16] I haven't looked into this personally. — Alexis Jazz ( talk or ping me) 08:09, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
This issue of kingdom vs polity were in question over the past years, as im going to raise it again:
- LCI Jayadewa represented the "unnamed King" of Tondo, and compare it to the statements of the "editors guild" ,a polity (mislabled as a kingdom) because of peacockry/anachronism (as if Srivijaya Kederi brunei , Melayu uses the kingdom-empire term) and also as if the Kasumuran, Bhisruta , even Jayadewa himself "cannot understand what type of government they have that time", so these what i called "editor's circle" acting as the authority when it comes on how Filipinos and other nation should view the ancient Philippine politics. the issue here was the irony of content dispute and double standard setup. ( Snopik ( talk) 07:28, 28 December 2021 (UTC))
I do not know if you are
JournalmanManila's sockpuppet, but clearly this map
File:Tondo.png - Wikimedia Commons is not credible. First, it talks about Rajah Alon, who is not a real person. Second, this map is in contrast to the information stated in this Wikipedia page, as well as all the other academic sources. It is obvious that this map is made by a conspiracy theorist or a distorian, with no legitimate basis. Let's also talk about the fact that the creator of this map uses sockpuppets:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sockpuppets_of_JournalmanManila for more information.
Delirium333 (
talk)
08:13, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=Notes>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=Notes}}
template (see the
help page).