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I'd appreciate a third opinion on these uncommented edits by User:Str1977. My feeling is that some useful information was lost. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
To explain my edits and whether information was lost:
So, now that I stated my case, you may tear me apart for that. Str1977 (smile back) 18:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
What is missing is the important fact that the (German) Kings of the Romans were crowned in Aachen until 1531, later in Frankfurt (see de:Krönung der römisch-deutschen Könige und Kaiser). DaQuirin 02:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It has been suggested (see Revision as of 18:38, 13 April 2007 King of the Germans" & "King of the Romans" is really the same thing) that Kingdom of Germany article be merged into this article "King of the Romans". -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, that settles that. I'll remove the banner. — LlywelynII 03:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Why are you removing this title from succession boxes? Michael Sanders 00:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Hallo, thanks for asking. Because "Queen of the Romans" and "German Queen" are the same thing, the former just being a title to denote the latter. It is pointless to have a separate box for each. It would be like having two boxes for a Chine Emperor, one being "Chinese Emperor", the other "Son of Heaven", or "Vice President of the USA" and "President of the Senate of the US" - with the latter example at least denoting a difference in function, a difference totally lacking in our case.
I have observed that you seem to draw a distinction by thinking that becoming Empress voids the title "Queen of the Romans". True, an Empress would not be called "Queen of the Romans" but nonetheless she remains QotR and GK as long as her husband remains so and he remains so until either his death/abdication or the election of a successor in that office.
Personally, I could do without consort sucession box - but shouldn't we then have a list of consorts - currently the box links to the list of the Kings.
Though I prefer the clearer "German Queen" (or my compromise suggestion "Roman-German") I don't object to the title QotR. What I adamantly object to is creating two different succession boxes, implying that there is a distinction between the two. I hope you understand. Str1977 (smile back) 07:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael, you are seriously mistaken. Let's get the facts straight:
Guys, I found the article cited below illuminating. Seeing as it looks pretty authoritative and is written by a German professor, who presumably knows more than we do, I suggest we consider it authoritative until something better comes along.
The cite is: < http://www.stm.unipi.it/Clioh/tabs/libri/3/13-Averkorn_177-198.pdf>
I recommend especially pp. 186-89. What I take away from this is that the terms "King of Germany" and "King of the Romans" have the same denotation, and are different only in their connotations. They were each used to express a particular point of view about the Emperor's authority vis-a-vis the Pope. As usual, politics is at the root. Eldred1 19:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
"When I refer to the end of the Hohenstaufens, ... I mean the period during which the King of the Romans, as ruler over his dynastic domains, became nothing more than one sovereign among many..."
"The most unmistakable example, however...of the indeterminedness in Germany during this period...Lupold's treatise on kingdom and Empire of 1340 defended the freedom of the electors to choose the the Emperor and the right of the king of the Romans, Louis of Bavaria, to the imperial crown. Since the Pope based his claim to the right of approval over the election of the King of the Romans on the theoretical subordination of imperium to sacerdotium, simultaneously associating this subordination with his right to crown he Emperor, every proponbant of an autonomous empire independent from the Papacy had to define the relationship between the regnum (that is, the German Empire as pertaining to the rights of the German electors) and the imperium (the empire as pertaining to Rome and the papacy in the imperial coronation). Lupold argued for the restriction of the papal rights by citing a body of proof ...[that] led him to understand the concept of empire in three distinct senses. Regnum meant the German Empire (reich), Charlemagne's legacy. In the regnum, in Aachen, the electors chose the German King without asking leave of the Pope. In the imperium, too, the king of the Romans reigned independently of the pope. In Burgundy and Italy, in Arles, Milan, and Rome, he presided over the administratio imperii, the maintenance of those imperial rights which Louis the Bavarian had stated in 1323 and which had aroused the opposition of Avignon. On the other hand, the rights of the King of the Romans in the imperium extended only as far as the area of Charlemagne's conquests; these rights were, therefore, 'irrational', as there was no question of any rational legitimization in the sense of a translatio imperii. It was a matter of rights by conquest and history. The third sphere lay beyond this historically attained imperium. It was the imperium in the widest sense, which the Pope had taken from the Greeks and confirmed upon Charlemagne, the legitimate and eternally valid translation imperii. This alone was the imperium as the universal office bestowed by the pope at the time of the imperial coronation." Heimpel, Hermann, "Characteristics of thge Late Middle Ages in Germany", contained in Pre-reformation Germany (editor Gerald Strauss).
And as for Henry IV, as the article King of the Romans states, the title only developed in his day, and did not mean what it came to mean later: that the title 'King of Germany' and 'King of the Romans' were two distinct titles, used often to mean the same thing, but politically separate offices. Michael Sanders 12:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael, there is no use discussing with you. You simply can't grasp that things might be different from your phantasy. You invent an office that never existed, You claim a source that doesn't support your view (as it doesn't talk about a King of Germany it cannot produce even an unclear distinction between that and a King of the Romans - they are one aand the same: King of the Romans at that time is the title of the German King - there is no other). I can only say: wake up to reality! Str1977 (smile back) 13:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I have moved this whole sorry debate to this talk page, to enable others to comment on the situation. Str1977 (smile back) 15:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
And here is the article from the Lexikon des Mittelalters:
Str1977 (smile back) 15:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael, do you have any evidence that anybody ever called themselves, or was called, both King of Germany and King of the Romans at the same time? If nobody ever used both titles at the same time, then it seems to me it's misleading for Wikipedia to do so. 66.208.46.254 15:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
"Roman-German" is clumsy, and absurd. You, Str, are the only one arguing that the titles are identical (Srnec's point appears to be that they are two different titles, but mean exactly the same thing) - and "Roman-German" is not used in English/
All those who used the title "Holy Roman Emperor" are always considered as such in English history, whether they were 'Emperor-elect' or crowned by the Pope (and this is in defiance of history. That's why we list Henry IV as Emperor rather than King).
As demonstrated below, by custom after the Salians, the Emperors used the title 'King of the Romans' until they became Emperor (which was either at Papal coronation or, after Charles V, at the German coronation at Aachen, the Empire by now having dwindled to the "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation".
"History of the Holy Roman Empire" cites Francis II and Charles V both as "King in Germany". I leave you to reflect on the relevance of the in (rather than on) for yourselves, but it doesn't alter the rex teutonicorum title.
"this is phantasy" - funny, I appear to have demonstrated it to be fact. You, by contrast, have cited nothing. Michael Sanders 17:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Str1977 (smile back) 19:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I take back my remark about Ferdinand I, who was an ill-chosen example. The key example, at any rate, of a King of the Romans who did not actually rule anything was Ferdinand IV. (There were others who held the title before becoming Emperor elect). Calling Ferdinand (and these others prior to their accessions) "King of Germany" seems problematic - this is never really used in English. In English we call these co-regent kings "King of the Romans." We should follow standard English usage on this. Roman-German, I will add, is a German form not used in English. We shouldn't pioneer its use in English on wikipedia. I still think that, at least for post 1508, we should use "King of the Romans." john k 23:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Evidence of both being used at the same time, and the relationship between the two:
the Holy Roman Empire which covered many more territories than the German parts and was linked for example in the times of the Hohenstaufen to the regnum of Sicily or in the times of the Luxemburg dynasty to the regnum of Bohemia...The eastern part of the former Carolingian empire became later Germany. The German kingdom, the regnum teutonicum included different regna: Bavaria, Franconia, Alemania, Lotharingia and Saxony...The fact that many German king were crowned emperors too complicated the process of nationbuilding in Germany. It is essential to keep this crucial fact in mind. In Germany this was the starting point of the creation of an imperial consciousness which was marked by imperial, Roman and sacral ideas, the idea of an empire – not of a nation – was born and was dominant for a long time...In Germany during the Middle Ages there was a dualism in various contexts, opposite concepts which did not allow the development of a nation as in France because these dualisms often caused a conflict of interest which made integration impossible...The connection between the Empire and the Eastern Frankish, later German kingdom; between the Emperor and the kingdom of Germany represented by the princes; and in the later middle ages the dualism between Roman Empire and German nation. We have to stress that in Germany empire, state and nation were never identical, never exactly the same during the Middle Ages...It is very obvious that this term “regnum teutonicorum” was first used in a propagandistic anti-imperial manner in the chancellery of the pope. The letters of pope Gregory VII which were sent to kings and princes all over Europe and to German princes served as a vehicle for distributing this new term. Pope Gregory VII wanted to reduce the emperor to his status as a king of Germany. He should be treated as a king in the Western Christendom like other Christian kings. The German king should be put on the same level as for example the kings of England and France without taking into consideration his imperial status. Secondly, the term from that moment on was used by the German princes who opposed the king and emperor Henry IV. They used it to emphasise the importance of a German kingdom and to claim more rights for themselves...authors writing in Latin were aware of the idea of “Germany” much earlier. The terms “Roman Empire” and “German Empire” were discussed in the sources for centuries. Finally, as mentioned above, from the 15th century the new title “Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation” came to be used. Why did this change occur? In the 13th century, there were political discussion in which lawyers tried to distinguish between the “king of Germany” and the “emperor of the Roman Empire” and the “kingdom of Germany” or the “kingdom of the Romans”. In the 12th century King Henry V, the son of the unlucky Henry IV, had called himself king of the Romans, rex Romanorum, to stress his political position in his fight against the pope. Meanwhile the pope and other political enemies continued to address him as rex Teutonicorum, rex Alemannorum or rex Alemanniae, exactly as they had done in the times of his father. Occasionally in polite letters they say rex Romanorum. These enemies did not want to accept the imperial functions of the German king...The same attitude can still be found in the 14th century when persons who wanted to abolish the empire addressed the German king as rex Alemanniae. Emperor Henry VII († 1313) became furious when he was called rex Alemanniae and not rex Romanorum...many historians believe that the feeling of belonging together in a common empire was stronger; the supra-national and imperial character of the so-called German state continued to be stressed. The idea of the imperium seemed stronger and more inclusive than that of a simple kingdom...we can conclude that in the 15th century the king of Germany, the so called Roman king, the rex romanorum or imperator Romanorum no longer had possessions in Italy with the exception of a few towns. He did not reign in reality any more in the Palatinate county of Burgundy with its capital in Besançon, which was now in practice a part of the kingdom of France. In fact these territories still belonged to the empire but reality was different and they were governed by other foreign princes...At the end of the 14th century some princes tried to elect a German king who would stay in Germany and not like king Wenzel, son of the famous emperor Charles IV, who spent most of his time in other countries like the regnum of Bohemia because he was also the king of Bohemia. The German kings of the 15th century did even not travel any more regularly to Rome whereas in former times they were crowned emperor by the pope. If we look carefully at the sources we will see furthermore that the distinction between regnum (Teutonicum) and imperium (Romanum) was no longer clear. And finally in the 16th century regnum and imperium were used in a quasi identical manner...Now as the Germans were reduced to the territory of the German kingdom, they started accepted the reduction of the royal title from “Roman king” to “German king” because now the official estimate of terms like “German”, “Germany”, and so forth had increased a lot in public opinion. The same development can be seen in the use of the imperial title. Foreign sources from the 12th century on had frequently called the emperor just imperator Alemanniae, imperator Teutonicorum, imperator Teutonicus and so forth but the emperors themselves continued to use the official title imperator Romanorum...During the 14th and 15th centuries the imperium is reduced to the regnum with which it comes to coincide. The consciousness of belonging to a Roman empire was trasformed into that of belonging to a German empire; this development might be regarded as the first step to a national consciousness. The new title “Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation” stresses the new importance of the German element."
The former source gives a clear political distinction between the two titles. The latter explains the connection between the two, and how they came to be conflated. Further to this is other evidence:
So what can we take away from this? First off, the subject is (unsurprisingly, given this is the HRE) complex and confusing. Authors often contradict each other, using German Empire variantly to mean either the regnum teutonicorum or the imperium romanum; some, for convenience, make a false distinction between the 'King of the Romans', which title they use as that of the heir apparent, and 'King of Germany', which they use to refer to the sole ruler in the imperium without the imperial title. Repeatedly, authors note the confusion (e.g. Bader, Chibnall).
What we do have is a bit of solid political description, which differentiates between 'Germany' and 'the King of the Romans', and which records the usage pretty much as this article describes it.
I remind you that, so far, you have presented no real arguments of the case that there is "no difference" between the title of 'King of the Romans' and 'King of the Germans'. Except insistence that "they have to be" because "What I think is that Michael has far more confidence in his correctness than his actual knowledge warrants" (and, incidentally, the most priceless argument was that 'the King of the Romans' couldn't rule the Empire because "a realm ruled by a King is a Kingdom, not an Empire". This is the organisation ruthlessly lampooned as illogical (and indeed "neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire", although that is misleading in this case). Michael Sanders 15:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael claimed that: (if 'King of the Romans' was merely another title for 'King of Germany', then plenty of of successors to a 'King of the Romans' had been chosen). Could he provide examples of this? john k 02:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay then. Just as a heads up, until adequate evidence, refuting that above, is provided, I'm restoring the succession boxes. I have given abundant evidence of the separate usage of the two titles ("King of Germany" as the title of the ruler of Germany, regardless of other honorifics, until he passes on sovereignty of the Kingdom to another; "King of the Romans" as the title used by Imperator futurus until he becomes "Emperor of the Romans", or "Holy Roman Emperor", at which point the title of rex romanorum is unused until a fresh election is called). I'd appreciate it if editors could refrain from altering until they have presented a sourced refutation of the above sources and published assertions. Michael Sanders 17:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Str, stop reverting those boxes until you provide sufficient evidence. Wikipedia is not a forum for your fantasies. Michael Sanders 18:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
It is interesting to follow your detailed exchange of arguments here. Maybe you want to bring clarity where no such clarity exists. Moreover, the situation (and interpretation) changed over time, as some of you have stated. To me, it sounds very artificial to say something against the fact that the (German) "King of the Romans" was the ruler of the Empire from the beginning. Once he was crowned Emperor the former title was not be used anymore (but he could claim to be both "King in/of Germany" and Emperor/ "König und Kaiser). Do not forget that the "King of the Romans" was crowned in Aachen with the Imperial Crown of the HRE. The same goes with the Imperial Regalia handed over to him during the "royal coronation". Interestingly, much less is known about the imperial coronations themselves (procedure, sources etc.). For example, it seems that in most cases the imperial crown was transported from Germany to Italy to be used a second time, but this was not necessarily the case. -- DaQuirin 18:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Just pointing out that DaQuirin got one important fact wrong: the Kings were not crowned with an Imperial crown of the HRE in Aachen or Frankfurt. They were crowned with the Reichskrone which is the crown of the German Kingdom. There was no one crown of the Empire or at least there's no information about it. Str1977 (talk) 13:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Some of the distinctions that various people have been trying to make may be clarified if we adopt a distinction between dignities and titles.
As is well known, a dynastic title may not correspond to anything in the real world; for instance, the several claimants to the title "King of Jerusalem" long after the Crusader Kingdom of that name had ceased to have a real existence, or the English inclusion of the title "King of France". Such titles, reflecting transient phases in the history of a royal house, or even claims made for propaganda purposes that were never fulfilled, were hereditary adornments that had become bereft of meaning.
Less well known is the fact that a ruler might hold a dignity and yet never refer to that dignity even in the most ample forms of their titles. An example is the dignity of ruler of the Kingdom of Italy. Following its 10th-century annexation, this "kingdom" was administratively distinct from the German portion of the Empire (i.e., largely unruled!), and the rulers even sometimes had their own coronation at Pavia (though not, it seems, after 1530); but the Emperors and/or Kings of the Romans rarely if ever used the title "King of Italy". Possibly this was because the various royal dignities of Germany, Italy, etc. were held to be subsumed under the Roman title, whether Imperator or Rex.
In the first decade of the 16th century, under Maximilian I, the title "Rex Germaniae" was revived. Possibly this was to emphasize Maximilian's authority in Germany, in spite of the fact that he had abandoned any intention of receiving an imperial coronation from the Pope; at nearly the same time the Pope granted him the right of calling himself Imperator (electus) even without the coronation. The titles "Rex Italiae" or "Rex Burgundiae" did not resurface at the same time, however -- or at any later time.
As far as titles go, "King of Italy" was unknown at least as far back as the 14th century, and likely before that. The dignity was unquestioned, and was symbolized by the Royal/Imperial title "of the Romans". The actual power was another thing, waxing and waning -- but mostly waning -- with the twists and turns of Imperial politics.
As a title, "King of Germany" is at first quite similar to "King of Italy": i.e., it was not always used, and for some periods very rarely used. The Kingdom of Germany was quite real, with its own administrative identity -- indeed, in the latter centuries of the Empire, it was much more real than the "Kingdom of Italy", with its own legislative and judicial system. But its ruler was not called "King of Germany" (or even Rex Teutonicorum) for quite some time; the entire dignity was wrapped up with, and practically disappeared under, the titles of King or Emperor of the Romans. In the early 1500s the title reappeared, and sat quite comfortably next to various other kingdoms and principalities claimed by the Habsburgs for nearly 300 years; but it's an open question as to whether the title, in that form, is to be considered real or merely decorative. At any rate, nothing happened in the first decade of the 16th century to alter the administrative set-up of the Empire Maximilian I ruled; he simply took an additional title which (for the first time) was listed beside the title Romanorum Imperator.
Ferdinand I, brother of Emperor Charles V, (who concerned himself largely with Dutch, Spanish, and Italian affairs in his later years), was elected in 1531 as "King of the Romans" -- i.e., heir to the Empire. During the decades before his brother's death in 1558, he had the titles both of "King of the Romans" and of "King of Germany"; when his brother abdicated the Empire (shortly before his death), Ferdinand became "Emperor of the Romans" but remained "King of Germany". The awkward fact is that during precisely the same period, Charles V _continued_ to use the title "King of Germany".
This example suffices to show that the two titles cannot be held to be precisely equivalent; but it also raises doubt about the propriety of using the title "King of Germany" anachronistically, i.e. before the time of Maximilian I, because we cannot be sure what rules it "would have" followed had it been used -- only how it was actually used. It is perhaps notable that the title of "King of Germany" (Rex Germaniae in Latin, but König in Germanien in German) was not, at this time, much used by the Habsburg rulers outside of Germany itself, e.g. in Spain or Hungary.
In short, when we use the titles of "Roman Emperor" or "King of the Romans", we have a pretty good idea of how and where those titles should be applied; they appear to be the substantive ones that respond to changes in position, whereas there's something rather vague about the application of the title "King of Germany", without such certainty about when and to whom it should be applied.
RandomCritic ( talk) 20:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I made a few changes to the page to clear up the differences between the titles of King of Germans, King of Romans and Emperor of Romans. First the king had to be elected by german nobility (hence king of germans, or king of franks, since the elections where held in Franken), then he was crowned King of Romans in Aachen and later crowned Emperor of the Romans in Italy. 83.253.104.243 ( talk) 11:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
"King of the Romans" and "King of the Germans" are two titles for the same dignity. The latter is not associated with the election (in which the place was not, as you suggest, restricted to "Franken") and the former with the coronation. Once, KotR came into usage, the prospective ruler was elected King of the Romans and then crowned King of the Romans. Also, he was not crowned Emperor in (the Kingdom of) Italy but in Rome. Str1977 (talk) 21:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
What's about Masuna King of Romans and Maurs (Rex gentium Maurorum et Romanorum)?-- Greutungen ( talk) 13:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
"After the Salian heir apparent Henry IV, a six-year-old minor, had been elected to rule the Empire in 1056, Romanorum Rex became his standard title"
That's not true. Henry IV's royal title was "divina favente clementia rex" without any ethnic notation. This did not change until Henry V introduced "Romanorum rex".
"Nevertheless Pope Gregory VII insisted on using the derogatory term Teutonicorum Rex ("King of the Germans") in order to imply that Henry's authority was merely local and did not extend over the whole Empire."
That one obviously wouldn't be true as well. The kings used to list all of their royal titles (including the Italian and Burgundian) when necessary. The pope had to specify Henry's kingship somehow and since the "Roman" one wasn't yet invented and the absolute one would have caused irritations he had to use the German one.-- MacX85 ( talk) 16:14, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Changed the picture of the throne to the one half-way from the front. Article originally had the one from the side, which looked weird. (Because you didn't know it was from the side.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.196.224.114 ( talk) 19:41, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
What would be the colloquial yet correct form to refer to the king of the HRE in a conversation where it's not clear that you're talking about the HRE? I mean, you can say "Holy Roman Emperor", many people do it. "Holy Roman king" would be unusual and "German king" might need some clarification as well, same for "Roman king" or "king of the Romans". Would it be "king of the Holy Roman Empire"?-- MacX85 ( talk) 13:19, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
There is a problem with feeding the list I can see the names correctly in the edited list but not at the page after the edit.... There were some Emperors missing in the list as were Charles VI.(Habsburg), Charles VII. (Wittelsbach), Francis I. Stephen (Lorraine/Habsburg Lorraine), also there was a mistake in the Lineage Joseph II. had no male issue as of this Francis II. is the Son of Leopold II. who like Joseph was a son of Francis I. Stehpen (Lorraine/Habsburg Lorraine)
The list goes therefore
Joseph I. Charles IV. (Last Habsburg in direct Male Line) Charles VII. (House of Wittelsbach) Francis I. (House of Lorraine / Habsburg Lorraine) Son in Law to Charles VI. Joseph II. (Grandson of Charles VI.) Leopold II. (Grandson of Charles VI., Younger brother of Joseph II., Father of Francis II.) Francis II. (last holy roman emperor!)
Xandl Hofer ( talk) 01:21, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
1. Günther von Schwarzburg - "He was elected king at the Dominican monastery in Frankfurt on 30 January 1349 by four of the electors". He appears in italics in List of German monarchs. The corresponding article in the German Wikipedia includes him in italics.
2. The German Wikipedia article also includes the following in italics - Frederick the Fair (in this article in normal type), Alfonso X of Castile (not in this article), Henry Raspe (in this article in normal type), Hermann of Salm (in this article in normal type), Rudolf of Rheinfelden (in this article in normal type).
3. If we are going to have names in italics, should this include Jobst of Moravia? Although the German Wikipedia has him in normal type.
Alekksandr ( talk) 22:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
1. Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor is shown as having become king on 17 July 1054 - the date on which he was crowned in his father's lifetime. However, he is also shown in the table of heirs from 1053 to 5 October 1056 - the date of his father's death. I suggest that she should be shown as having become king on the date of his father's death. Alekksandr ( talk) 22:02, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
It currently has two sources cited, only in the Later Developments section. I'm gonna do some digging to see if the information presented throughout this article is in reliable sources, I'd encourage anyone with any expertise in this area to check as well. If I find anything that substantially contradicts uncited information in the article I'll edit and post on the talk page. Cbrfield ( talk) 03:11, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
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I'd appreciate a third opinion on these uncommented edits by User:Str1977. My feeling is that some useful information was lost. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
To explain my edits and whether information was lost:
So, now that I stated my case, you may tear me apart for that. Str1977 (smile back) 18:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
What is missing is the important fact that the (German) Kings of the Romans were crowned in Aachen until 1531, later in Frankfurt (see de:Krönung der römisch-deutschen Könige und Kaiser). DaQuirin 02:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It has been suggested (see Revision as of 18:38, 13 April 2007 King of the Germans" & "King of the Romans" is really the same thing) that Kingdom of Germany article be merged into this article "King of the Romans". -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, that settles that. I'll remove the banner. — LlywelynII 03:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Why are you removing this title from succession boxes? Michael Sanders 00:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Hallo, thanks for asking. Because "Queen of the Romans" and "German Queen" are the same thing, the former just being a title to denote the latter. It is pointless to have a separate box for each. It would be like having two boxes for a Chine Emperor, one being "Chinese Emperor", the other "Son of Heaven", or "Vice President of the USA" and "President of the Senate of the US" - with the latter example at least denoting a difference in function, a difference totally lacking in our case.
I have observed that you seem to draw a distinction by thinking that becoming Empress voids the title "Queen of the Romans". True, an Empress would not be called "Queen of the Romans" but nonetheless she remains QotR and GK as long as her husband remains so and he remains so until either his death/abdication or the election of a successor in that office.
Personally, I could do without consort sucession box - but shouldn't we then have a list of consorts - currently the box links to the list of the Kings.
Though I prefer the clearer "German Queen" (or my compromise suggestion "Roman-German") I don't object to the title QotR. What I adamantly object to is creating two different succession boxes, implying that there is a distinction between the two. I hope you understand. Str1977 (smile back) 07:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael, you are seriously mistaken. Let's get the facts straight:
Guys, I found the article cited below illuminating. Seeing as it looks pretty authoritative and is written by a German professor, who presumably knows more than we do, I suggest we consider it authoritative until something better comes along.
The cite is: < http://www.stm.unipi.it/Clioh/tabs/libri/3/13-Averkorn_177-198.pdf>
I recommend especially pp. 186-89. What I take away from this is that the terms "King of Germany" and "King of the Romans" have the same denotation, and are different only in their connotations. They were each used to express a particular point of view about the Emperor's authority vis-a-vis the Pope. As usual, politics is at the root. Eldred1 19:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
"When I refer to the end of the Hohenstaufens, ... I mean the period during which the King of the Romans, as ruler over his dynastic domains, became nothing more than one sovereign among many..."
"The most unmistakable example, however...of the indeterminedness in Germany during this period...Lupold's treatise on kingdom and Empire of 1340 defended the freedom of the electors to choose the the Emperor and the right of the king of the Romans, Louis of Bavaria, to the imperial crown. Since the Pope based his claim to the right of approval over the election of the King of the Romans on the theoretical subordination of imperium to sacerdotium, simultaneously associating this subordination with his right to crown he Emperor, every proponbant of an autonomous empire independent from the Papacy had to define the relationship between the regnum (that is, the German Empire as pertaining to the rights of the German electors) and the imperium (the empire as pertaining to Rome and the papacy in the imperial coronation). Lupold argued for the restriction of the papal rights by citing a body of proof ...[that] led him to understand the concept of empire in three distinct senses. Regnum meant the German Empire (reich), Charlemagne's legacy. In the regnum, in Aachen, the electors chose the German King without asking leave of the Pope. In the imperium, too, the king of the Romans reigned independently of the pope. In Burgundy and Italy, in Arles, Milan, and Rome, he presided over the administratio imperii, the maintenance of those imperial rights which Louis the Bavarian had stated in 1323 and which had aroused the opposition of Avignon. On the other hand, the rights of the King of the Romans in the imperium extended only as far as the area of Charlemagne's conquests; these rights were, therefore, 'irrational', as there was no question of any rational legitimization in the sense of a translatio imperii. It was a matter of rights by conquest and history. The third sphere lay beyond this historically attained imperium. It was the imperium in the widest sense, which the Pope had taken from the Greeks and confirmed upon Charlemagne, the legitimate and eternally valid translation imperii. This alone was the imperium as the universal office bestowed by the pope at the time of the imperial coronation." Heimpel, Hermann, "Characteristics of thge Late Middle Ages in Germany", contained in Pre-reformation Germany (editor Gerald Strauss).
And as for Henry IV, as the article King of the Romans states, the title only developed in his day, and did not mean what it came to mean later: that the title 'King of Germany' and 'King of the Romans' were two distinct titles, used often to mean the same thing, but politically separate offices. Michael Sanders 12:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael, there is no use discussing with you. You simply can't grasp that things might be different from your phantasy. You invent an office that never existed, You claim a source that doesn't support your view (as it doesn't talk about a King of Germany it cannot produce even an unclear distinction between that and a King of the Romans - they are one aand the same: King of the Romans at that time is the title of the German King - there is no other). I can only say: wake up to reality! Str1977 (smile back) 13:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I have moved this whole sorry debate to this talk page, to enable others to comment on the situation. Str1977 (smile back) 15:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
And here is the article from the Lexikon des Mittelalters:
Str1977 (smile back) 15:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael, do you have any evidence that anybody ever called themselves, or was called, both King of Germany and King of the Romans at the same time? If nobody ever used both titles at the same time, then it seems to me it's misleading for Wikipedia to do so. 66.208.46.254 15:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
"Roman-German" is clumsy, and absurd. You, Str, are the only one arguing that the titles are identical (Srnec's point appears to be that they are two different titles, but mean exactly the same thing) - and "Roman-German" is not used in English/
All those who used the title "Holy Roman Emperor" are always considered as such in English history, whether they were 'Emperor-elect' or crowned by the Pope (and this is in defiance of history. That's why we list Henry IV as Emperor rather than King).
As demonstrated below, by custom after the Salians, the Emperors used the title 'King of the Romans' until they became Emperor (which was either at Papal coronation or, after Charles V, at the German coronation at Aachen, the Empire by now having dwindled to the "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation".
"History of the Holy Roman Empire" cites Francis II and Charles V both as "King in Germany". I leave you to reflect on the relevance of the in (rather than on) for yourselves, but it doesn't alter the rex teutonicorum title.
"this is phantasy" - funny, I appear to have demonstrated it to be fact. You, by contrast, have cited nothing. Michael Sanders 17:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Str1977 (smile back) 19:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I take back my remark about Ferdinand I, who was an ill-chosen example. The key example, at any rate, of a King of the Romans who did not actually rule anything was Ferdinand IV. (There were others who held the title before becoming Emperor elect). Calling Ferdinand (and these others prior to their accessions) "King of Germany" seems problematic - this is never really used in English. In English we call these co-regent kings "King of the Romans." We should follow standard English usage on this. Roman-German, I will add, is a German form not used in English. We shouldn't pioneer its use in English on wikipedia. I still think that, at least for post 1508, we should use "King of the Romans." john k 23:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Evidence of both being used at the same time, and the relationship between the two:
the Holy Roman Empire which covered many more territories than the German parts and was linked for example in the times of the Hohenstaufen to the regnum of Sicily or in the times of the Luxemburg dynasty to the regnum of Bohemia...The eastern part of the former Carolingian empire became later Germany. The German kingdom, the regnum teutonicum included different regna: Bavaria, Franconia, Alemania, Lotharingia and Saxony...The fact that many German king were crowned emperors too complicated the process of nationbuilding in Germany. It is essential to keep this crucial fact in mind. In Germany this was the starting point of the creation of an imperial consciousness which was marked by imperial, Roman and sacral ideas, the idea of an empire – not of a nation – was born and was dominant for a long time...In Germany during the Middle Ages there was a dualism in various contexts, opposite concepts which did not allow the development of a nation as in France because these dualisms often caused a conflict of interest which made integration impossible...The connection between the Empire and the Eastern Frankish, later German kingdom; between the Emperor and the kingdom of Germany represented by the princes; and in the later middle ages the dualism between Roman Empire and German nation. We have to stress that in Germany empire, state and nation were never identical, never exactly the same during the Middle Ages...It is very obvious that this term “regnum teutonicorum” was first used in a propagandistic anti-imperial manner in the chancellery of the pope. The letters of pope Gregory VII which were sent to kings and princes all over Europe and to German princes served as a vehicle for distributing this new term. Pope Gregory VII wanted to reduce the emperor to his status as a king of Germany. He should be treated as a king in the Western Christendom like other Christian kings. The German king should be put on the same level as for example the kings of England and France without taking into consideration his imperial status. Secondly, the term from that moment on was used by the German princes who opposed the king and emperor Henry IV. They used it to emphasise the importance of a German kingdom and to claim more rights for themselves...authors writing in Latin were aware of the idea of “Germany” much earlier. The terms “Roman Empire” and “German Empire” were discussed in the sources for centuries. Finally, as mentioned above, from the 15th century the new title “Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation” came to be used. Why did this change occur? In the 13th century, there were political discussion in which lawyers tried to distinguish between the “king of Germany” and the “emperor of the Roman Empire” and the “kingdom of Germany” or the “kingdom of the Romans”. In the 12th century King Henry V, the son of the unlucky Henry IV, had called himself king of the Romans, rex Romanorum, to stress his political position in his fight against the pope. Meanwhile the pope and other political enemies continued to address him as rex Teutonicorum, rex Alemannorum or rex Alemanniae, exactly as they had done in the times of his father. Occasionally in polite letters they say rex Romanorum. These enemies did not want to accept the imperial functions of the German king...The same attitude can still be found in the 14th century when persons who wanted to abolish the empire addressed the German king as rex Alemanniae. Emperor Henry VII († 1313) became furious when he was called rex Alemanniae and not rex Romanorum...many historians believe that the feeling of belonging together in a common empire was stronger; the supra-national and imperial character of the so-called German state continued to be stressed. The idea of the imperium seemed stronger and more inclusive than that of a simple kingdom...we can conclude that in the 15th century the king of Germany, the so called Roman king, the rex romanorum or imperator Romanorum no longer had possessions in Italy with the exception of a few towns. He did not reign in reality any more in the Palatinate county of Burgundy with its capital in Besançon, which was now in practice a part of the kingdom of France. In fact these territories still belonged to the empire but reality was different and they were governed by other foreign princes...At the end of the 14th century some princes tried to elect a German king who would stay in Germany and not like king Wenzel, son of the famous emperor Charles IV, who spent most of his time in other countries like the regnum of Bohemia because he was also the king of Bohemia. The German kings of the 15th century did even not travel any more regularly to Rome whereas in former times they were crowned emperor by the pope. If we look carefully at the sources we will see furthermore that the distinction between regnum (Teutonicum) and imperium (Romanum) was no longer clear. And finally in the 16th century regnum and imperium were used in a quasi identical manner...Now as the Germans were reduced to the territory of the German kingdom, they started accepted the reduction of the royal title from “Roman king” to “German king” because now the official estimate of terms like “German”, “Germany”, and so forth had increased a lot in public opinion. The same development can be seen in the use of the imperial title. Foreign sources from the 12th century on had frequently called the emperor just imperator Alemanniae, imperator Teutonicorum, imperator Teutonicus and so forth but the emperors themselves continued to use the official title imperator Romanorum...During the 14th and 15th centuries the imperium is reduced to the regnum with which it comes to coincide. The consciousness of belonging to a Roman empire was trasformed into that of belonging to a German empire; this development might be regarded as the first step to a national consciousness. The new title “Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation” stresses the new importance of the German element."
The former source gives a clear political distinction between the two titles. The latter explains the connection between the two, and how they came to be conflated. Further to this is other evidence:
So what can we take away from this? First off, the subject is (unsurprisingly, given this is the HRE) complex and confusing. Authors often contradict each other, using German Empire variantly to mean either the regnum teutonicorum or the imperium romanum; some, for convenience, make a false distinction between the 'King of the Romans', which title they use as that of the heir apparent, and 'King of Germany', which they use to refer to the sole ruler in the imperium without the imperial title. Repeatedly, authors note the confusion (e.g. Bader, Chibnall).
What we do have is a bit of solid political description, which differentiates between 'Germany' and 'the King of the Romans', and which records the usage pretty much as this article describes it.
I remind you that, so far, you have presented no real arguments of the case that there is "no difference" between the title of 'King of the Romans' and 'King of the Germans'. Except insistence that "they have to be" because "What I think is that Michael has far more confidence in his correctness than his actual knowledge warrants" (and, incidentally, the most priceless argument was that 'the King of the Romans' couldn't rule the Empire because "a realm ruled by a King is a Kingdom, not an Empire". This is the organisation ruthlessly lampooned as illogical (and indeed "neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire", although that is misleading in this case). Michael Sanders 15:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael claimed that: (if 'King of the Romans' was merely another title for 'King of Germany', then plenty of of successors to a 'King of the Romans' had been chosen). Could he provide examples of this? john k 02:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay then. Just as a heads up, until adequate evidence, refuting that above, is provided, I'm restoring the succession boxes. I have given abundant evidence of the separate usage of the two titles ("King of Germany" as the title of the ruler of Germany, regardless of other honorifics, until he passes on sovereignty of the Kingdom to another; "King of the Romans" as the title used by Imperator futurus until he becomes "Emperor of the Romans", or "Holy Roman Emperor", at which point the title of rex romanorum is unused until a fresh election is called). I'd appreciate it if editors could refrain from altering until they have presented a sourced refutation of the above sources and published assertions. Michael Sanders 17:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Str, stop reverting those boxes until you provide sufficient evidence. Wikipedia is not a forum for your fantasies. Michael Sanders 18:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
It is interesting to follow your detailed exchange of arguments here. Maybe you want to bring clarity where no such clarity exists. Moreover, the situation (and interpretation) changed over time, as some of you have stated. To me, it sounds very artificial to say something against the fact that the (German) "King of the Romans" was the ruler of the Empire from the beginning. Once he was crowned Emperor the former title was not be used anymore (but he could claim to be both "King in/of Germany" and Emperor/ "König und Kaiser). Do not forget that the "King of the Romans" was crowned in Aachen with the Imperial Crown of the HRE. The same goes with the Imperial Regalia handed over to him during the "royal coronation". Interestingly, much less is known about the imperial coronations themselves (procedure, sources etc.). For example, it seems that in most cases the imperial crown was transported from Germany to Italy to be used a second time, but this was not necessarily the case. -- DaQuirin 18:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Just pointing out that DaQuirin got one important fact wrong: the Kings were not crowned with an Imperial crown of the HRE in Aachen or Frankfurt. They were crowned with the Reichskrone which is the crown of the German Kingdom. There was no one crown of the Empire or at least there's no information about it. Str1977 (talk) 13:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Some of the distinctions that various people have been trying to make may be clarified if we adopt a distinction between dignities and titles.
As is well known, a dynastic title may not correspond to anything in the real world; for instance, the several claimants to the title "King of Jerusalem" long after the Crusader Kingdom of that name had ceased to have a real existence, or the English inclusion of the title "King of France". Such titles, reflecting transient phases in the history of a royal house, or even claims made for propaganda purposes that were never fulfilled, were hereditary adornments that had become bereft of meaning.
Less well known is the fact that a ruler might hold a dignity and yet never refer to that dignity even in the most ample forms of their titles. An example is the dignity of ruler of the Kingdom of Italy. Following its 10th-century annexation, this "kingdom" was administratively distinct from the German portion of the Empire (i.e., largely unruled!), and the rulers even sometimes had their own coronation at Pavia (though not, it seems, after 1530); but the Emperors and/or Kings of the Romans rarely if ever used the title "King of Italy". Possibly this was because the various royal dignities of Germany, Italy, etc. were held to be subsumed under the Roman title, whether Imperator or Rex.
In the first decade of the 16th century, under Maximilian I, the title "Rex Germaniae" was revived. Possibly this was to emphasize Maximilian's authority in Germany, in spite of the fact that he had abandoned any intention of receiving an imperial coronation from the Pope; at nearly the same time the Pope granted him the right of calling himself Imperator (electus) even without the coronation. The titles "Rex Italiae" or "Rex Burgundiae" did not resurface at the same time, however -- or at any later time.
As far as titles go, "King of Italy" was unknown at least as far back as the 14th century, and likely before that. The dignity was unquestioned, and was symbolized by the Royal/Imperial title "of the Romans". The actual power was another thing, waxing and waning -- but mostly waning -- with the twists and turns of Imperial politics.
As a title, "King of Germany" is at first quite similar to "King of Italy": i.e., it was not always used, and for some periods very rarely used. The Kingdom of Germany was quite real, with its own administrative identity -- indeed, in the latter centuries of the Empire, it was much more real than the "Kingdom of Italy", with its own legislative and judicial system. But its ruler was not called "King of Germany" (or even Rex Teutonicorum) for quite some time; the entire dignity was wrapped up with, and practically disappeared under, the titles of King or Emperor of the Romans. In the early 1500s the title reappeared, and sat quite comfortably next to various other kingdoms and principalities claimed by the Habsburgs for nearly 300 years; but it's an open question as to whether the title, in that form, is to be considered real or merely decorative. At any rate, nothing happened in the first decade of the 16th century to alter the administrative set-up of the Empire Maximilian I ruled; he simply took an additional title which (for the first time) was listed beside the title Romanorum Imperator.
Ferdinand I, brother of Emperor Charles V, (who concerned himself largely with Dutch, Spanish, and Italian affairs in his later years), was elected in 1531 as "King of the Romans" -- i.e., heir to the Empire. During the decades before his brother's death in 1558, he had the titles both of "King of the Romans" and of "King of Germany"; when his brother abdicated the Empire (shortly before his death), Ferdinand became "Emperor of the Romans" but remained "King of Germany". The awkward fact is that during precisely the same period, Charles V _continued_ to use the title "King of Germany".
This example suffices to show that the two titles cannot be held to be precisely equivalent; but it also raises doubt about the propriety of using the title "King of Germany" anachronistically, i.e. before the time of Maximilian I, because we cannot be sure what rules it "would have" followed had it been used -- only how it was actually used. It is perhaps notable that the title of "King of Germany" (Rex Germaniae in Latin, but König in Germanien in German) was not, at this time, much used by the Habsburg rulers outside of Germany itself, e.g. in Spain or Hungary.
In short, when we use the titles of "Roman Emperor" or "King of the Romans", we have a pretty good idea of how and where those titles should be applied; they appear to be the substantive ones that respond to changes in position, whereas there's something rather vague about the application of the title "King of Germany", without such certainty about when and to whom it should be applied.
RandomCritic ( talk) 20:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I made a few changes to the page to clear up the differences between the titles of King of Germans, King of Romans and Emperor of Romans. First the king had to be elected by german nobility (hence king of germans, or king of franks, since the elections where held in Franken), then he was crowned King of Romans in Aachen and later crowned Emperor of the Romans in Italy. 83.253.104.243 ( talk) 11:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
"King of the Romans" and "King of the Germans" are two titles for the same dignity. The latter is not associated with the election (in which the place was not, as you suggest, restricted to "Franken") and the former with the coronation. Once, KotR came into usage, the prospective ruler was elected King of the Romans and then crowned King of the Romans. Also, he was not crowned Emperor in (the Kingdom of) Italy but in Rome. Str1977 (talk) 21:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
What's about Masuna King of Romans and Maurs (Rex gentium Maurorum et Romanorum)?-- Greutungen ( talk) 13:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
"After the Salian heir apparent Henry IV, a six-year-old minor, had been elected to rule the Empire in 1056, Romanorum Rex became his standard title"
That's not true. Henry IV's royal title was "divina favente clementia rex" without any ethnic notation. This did not change until Henry V introduced "Romanorum rex".
"Nevertheless Pope Gregory VII insisted on using the derogatory term Teutonicorum Rex ("King of the Germans") in order to imply that Henry's authority was merely local and did not extend over the whole Empire."
That one obviously wouldn't be true as well. The kings used to list all of their royal titles (including the Italian and Burgundian) when necessary. The pope had to specify Henry's kingship somehow and since the "Roman" one wasn't yet invented and the absolute one would have caused irritations he had to use the German one.-- MacX85 ( talk) 16:14, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Changed the picture of the throne to the one half-way from the front. Article originally had the one from the side, which looked weird. (Because you didn't know it was from the side.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.196.224.114 ( talk) 19:41, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
What would be the colloquial yet correct form to refer to the king of the HRE in a conversation where it's not clear that you're talking about the HRE? I mean, you can say "Holy Roman Emperor", many people do it. "Holy Roman king" would be unusual and "German king" might need some clarification as well, same for "Roman king" or "king of the Romans". Would it be "king of the Holy Roman Empire"?-- MacX85 ( talk) 13:19, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
There is a problem with feeding the list I can see the names correctly in the edited list but not at the page after the edit.... There were some Emperors missing in the list as were Charles VI.(Habsburg), Charles VII. (Wittelsbach), Francis I. Stephen (Lorraine/Habsburg Lorraine), also there was a mistake in the Lineage Joseph II. had no male issue as of this Francis II. is the Son of Leopold II. who like Joseph was a son of Francis I. Stehpen (Lorraine/Habsburg Lorraine)
The list goes therefore
Joseph I. Charles IV. (Last Habsburg in direct Male Line) Charles VII. (House of Wittelsbach) Francis I. (House of Lorraine / Habsburg Lorraine) Son in Law to Charles VI. Joseph II. (Grandson of Charles VI.) Leopold II. (Grandson of Charles VI., Younger brother of Joseph II., Father of Francis II.) Francis II. (last holy roman emperor!)
Xandl Hofer ( talk) 01:21, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
1. Günther von Schwarzburg - "He was elected king at the Dominican monastery in Frankfurt on 30 January 1349 by four of the electors". He appears in italics in List of German monarchs. The corresponding article in the German Wikipedia includes him in italics.
2. The German Wikipedia article also includes the following in italics - Frederick the Fair (in this article in normal type), Alfonso X of Castile (not in this article), Henry Raspe (in this article in normal type), Hermann of Salm (in this article in normal type), Rudolf of Rheinfelden (in this article in normal type).
3. If we are going to have names in italics, should this include Jobst of Moravia? Although the German Wikipedia has him in normal type.
Alekksandr ( talk) 22:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
1. Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor is shown as having become king on 17 July 1054 - the date on which he was crowned in his father's lifetime. However, he is also shown in the table of heirs from 1053 to 5 October 1056 - the date of his father's death. I suggest that she should be shown as having become king on the date of his father's death. Alekksandr ( talk) 22:02, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
It currently has two sources cited, only in the Later Developments section. I'm gonna do some digging to see if the information presented throughout this article is in reliable sources, I'd encourage anyone with any expertise in this area to check as well. If I find anything that substantially contradicts uncited information in the article I'll edit and post on the talk page. Cbrfield ( talk) 03:11, 13 April 2024 (UTC)