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The "Release history" has been tagged as needing more references since February 2010. I'm surprised no one has instigated a GAR yet. howcheng { chat} 17:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
Relevant comments about this album at Talk:Time Out (album)#RIAA's first Platinum jazz album?. Dan56 ( talk) 23:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
The references 11, and 12 refer to the page 299 of Ashley Kahn´s Kind of Blue: The Making of the Miles Davis Masterpiece., but the Kahn book with the IBSN mentioned has only 224 pages according to Amazon. -- Trou Noir ( talk) 12:08, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Not to denigrate this great album, but the article says it's considered "one of the greatest albums of all time" about half a dozen times throughout the text. Okay, we get it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:643:8101:6A37:791E:365D:CD23:EE4B ( talk) 18:41, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
American jazz trumpeter.His main prominence is as a trumpeter and NYA's argument is good enough. Winged Blades Godric 17:44, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
In light of a recent edit war--*sighhhhhh*..... Should the existing description of Miles Davis in the opening sentence of the lead--"American jazz trumpeter, composer, and bandleader"--be reduced to "American jazz musician"? Dan56 ( talk) 18:52, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
@
Korny O'Near:, I'm sure jazz aficionados will find it unnecessary, but these articles are aimed at the layperson
"People who read Wikipedia have different backgrounds, education and opinions. Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Assume readers are reading the article to learn. It is possible that the reader knows nothing about the subject, so the article needs to explain the subject fully."
And otherwise music fans who know nothing of jazz--since it's dying in the mainstream--won't consider the artist of the album the de facto composer; they'll just as likely assume he doesn't write what he plays. Perhaps ditching "bandleader" only, since it's suggested in the following sentences' discussion of "Davis's sextet"?
Dan56 (
talk)
17:17, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Alerted by RfC bot. I'm not sure why "bandleader" is used in his WP page; every group has a band leader. Specifying what notable role he had would be best, if applicable (e.g., lead singer, lead trumpeter in an ensemble, etc), otherwise 'bandleader' is superfluous. So I would certainly not add it here. For an article on any recording, mention only what the artist is most notable for in the lead intro. If that is composing and playing trumpet, then "American jazz trumpeter and composer" suffices. Whether or not he wrote songs on the album is irrelevant to his notability as a composer (if he is indeed notable as a composer). Lapadite ( talk) 03:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
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Recently, the paragraphs in the lead were rearranged by Lawrencekhoo, so that information about the album's release date, recording, and the musician's concept for the album were replaced in the first paragraph with information about how the album has been critically received, accolades, and so forth. Lawrencekhoo cited the guideline that the lead should establish notability of the topic. In restoring the original layout, I cited MOS:LEAD which says the lead paragraph "should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it," and in my opinion, critical opinions are not facts. The practice throughout WP:ALBUMS articles appears to prioritize the original layout here, but admittedly my opinion is not a strong one when reading: "The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Like in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." So I'm not sure. Dan56 ( talk) 14:34, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
This seems very contorted:
pianist Wynton Kelly, ... with former band pianist Bill Evans appearing on most of the tracks in place of Kelly
Shouldn't it be something like:
pianist Bill Evans with new pianist Wynton Kelly appearing on one track.
- Immigrant laborer ( talk) 16:15, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
I can see that you believe it should be noted that if an album had tracks one to five on side one and tracks one to four on side two, then it should be announced in the track listing section that the compact disc is numbered it tracks one through nine. I'm sorry but I feel that this little tag placed at the bottom of every track listing scans terribly on the page, and indeed insults the reader's intelligence. Since a compact disc has no sides, of course the track listing format does not indicate any, so tracks are numbered through rather than broken up into sides with side two starting off at one again. I don't think that needs to be reiterated. PJtP ( talk) 02:31, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Re this revert: "Who was Jimmy Cobb and why do we care about him?" Really? This article is a " WP:Good Article" and that quote has been placed under "Recording" for at least 10 years. Martinevans123 ( talk) 07:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
For over ten years it's attracted no adverse comment?- it suggests that if something sticks around long enough it shouldn't be changed and/or is impervious to criticism, which a) doesn't make much sense and b) would make it difficult to make progress in many areas.
Cobb said the album "must have been made in heaven". But it isn't the sort of quote that makes sense to draw out and place in a separate quote box, other than to sort of glorify it. As I said in my original edit, I don't think it even really makes sense to someone skimming the article (and quote boxes/images/captions are read by skimming first - they should be able to stand alone). Popcornfud ( talk) 13:42, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Jimmy Cobb is introduced in the lead. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 07:32, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
Copystrike on the coverage high profile case. -- Greatder ( talk) 08:32, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
@ Martinevans123: basically someone made an 8bit chiptune of their personal interpretation of the music and got sued for using the pixelated version of album picture. It blew up. Some links:
-- Greatder ( talk) 15:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't consider any of the sites you referenced to be relevant or indicative of widespread coverage. And in and of itself, the story seems like a footnote. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 04:24, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
In fact, two of your sources are listed at WP:RSP with cautionary notes. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 04:27, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
Why do we need an entire section dedicated to this story? How is more than one sentence summarizing its connection to the album not sufficient enough? How does mentioning more help readers understand Kind of Blue better? How does not mentioning it at all deprive this article of all requisite information to understand the album? These are the questions we should be asking ourselves. You are free to add the information yourself to the article, but stop tagging it as if it needs this. It doesn't. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 04:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
This edit does not constitute vandalism, nor does it change the meaning or context of the material, nor does it include information not found in already cited sources. It includes incremental changes made in good faith to improve the previous version of this paragraph, which had several areas in need of improvement: 1) the letter 'a' in 'alto' was incorrectly capitalized 2) the sentence's readability is hindered by its clumsy grammar and punctuation as well as its long length 3) the events mentioned near the end of sentence were listed non-chronologically: the mention of 'Kelly...November, 1958' precedes 'Cobb...May, 1958' 4) the sentence as written states that the pianist (Evans) was replaced in 1958, but that a drummer was added— the latter is incorrect, as the previous lineup also had a drummer (Philly Joe Jones) who was replaced in 1958 by Jimmy Cobb. Hagaland ( talk) 05:43, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. But you've left the first paragraph uncited. 𝒮𝒾𝓇 𝒯𝑒𝒻𝓁𝑜𝓃 ( talk | contribs) 15:15, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Done. (I don't have a problem with providing a reference, but it's worth noting that no other information/instrumentalist in that paragraph was cited; perhaps you can enlighten me regarding why...) Hagaland ( talk) 20:53, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
Because you split it from the other text, which had citations toward the end. Which is customary to place a citation covering a whole paragraph at the end and not repeat it elsewhere ( WP:OVERCITE). So can you check your previous revisions and see which citation was verifying that entire paragraph? 𝒮𝒾𝓇 𝒯𝑒𝒻𝓁𝑜𝓃 ( talk | contribs) 21:44, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
What is the point in the 3,495,572 (with reference) under certified sales, when it has been certified platinum 5 times in the US (i.e., sales over 5 million)?
1) It's out of date: It went platinum one more time since this reference was added.
2) Surely the certification agency is the best source.
If it wasn't a good article I'd just do this myself, but perhaps I'm missing some nuance here. Dhalamh ( talk) 09:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
1. The SACD booklet gives 5:37 for "Blue in Green", instead of 5:27.
2. The booklet with the SACD says that the tape recorder was running at the wrong speed for the first three tracks, so they were played back sharp and faster on all releases until the gold Mastersound release. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 03:33, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kind of Blue article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Kind of Blue has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on August 17, 2009, August 17, 2010, August 17, 2012, August 17, 2019, August 17, 2022, and August 17, 2023. | |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The "Release history" has been tagged as needing more references since February 2010. I'm surprised no one has instigated a GAR yet. howcheng { chat} 17:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
Relevant comments about this album at Talk:Time Out (album)#RIAA's first Platinum jazz album?. Dan56 ( talk) 23:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
The references 11, and 12 refer to the page 299 of Ashley Kahn´s Kind of Blue: The Making of the Miles Davis Masterpiece., but the Kahn book with the IBSN mentioned has only 224 pages according to Amazon. -- Trou Noir ( talk) 12:08, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Not to denigrate this great album, but the article says it's considered "one of the greatest albums of all time" about half a dozen times throughout the text. Okay, we get it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:643:8101:6A37:791E:365D:CD23:EE4B ( talk) 18:41, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
American jazz trumpeter.His main prominence is as a trumpeter and NYA's argument is good enough. Winged Blades Godric 17:44, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
In light of a recent edit war--*sighhhhhh*..... Should the existing description of Miles Davis in the opening sentence of the lead--"American jazz trumpeter, composer, and bandleader"--be reduced to "American jazz musician"? Dan56 ( talk) 18:52, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
@
Korny O'Near:, I'm sure jazz aficionados will find it unnecessary, but these articles are aimed at the layperson
"People who read Wikipedia have different backgrounds, education and opinions. Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Assume readers are reading the article to learn. It is possible that the reader knows nothing about the subject, so the article needs to explain the subject fully."
And otherwise music fans who know nothing of jazz--since it's dying in the mainstream--won't consider the artist of the album the de facto composer; they'll just as likely assume he doesn't write what he plays. Perhaps ditching "bandleader" only, since it's suggested in the following sentences' discussion of "Davis's sextet"?
Dan56 (
talk)
17:17, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Alerted by RfC bot. I'm not sure why "bandleader" is used in his WP page; every group has a band leader. Specifying what notable role he had would be best, if applicable (e.g., lead singer, lead trumpeter in an ensemble, etc), otherwise 'bandleader' is superfluous. So I would certainly not add it here. For an article on any recording, mention only what the artist is most notable for in the lead intro. If that is composing and playing trumpet, then "American jazz trumpeter and composer" suffices. Whether or not he wrote songs on the album is irrelevant to his notability as a composer (if he is indeed notable as a composer). Lapadite ( talk) 03:20, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
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Recently, the paragraphs in the lead were rearranged by Lawrencekhoo, so that information about the album's release date, recording, and the musician's concept for the album were replaced in the first paragraph with information about how the album has been critically received, accolades, and so forth. Lawrencekhoo cited the guideline that the lead should establish notability of the topic. In restoring the original layout, I cited MOS:LEAD which says the lead paragraph "should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it," and in my opinion, critical opinions are not facts. The practice throughout WP:ALBUMS articles appears to prioritize the original layout here, but admittedly my opinion is not a strong one when reading: "The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Like in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." So I'm not sure. Dan56 ( talk) 14:34, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
This seems very contorted:
pianist Wynton Kelly, ... with former band pianist Bill Evans appearing on most of the tracks in place of Kelly
Shouldn't it be something like:
pianist Bill Evans with new pianist Wynton Kelly appearing on one track.
- Immigrant laborer ( talk) 16:15, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
I can see that you believe it should be noted that if an album had tracks one to five on side one and tracks one to four on side two, then it should be announced in the track listing section that the compact disc is numbered it tracks one through nine. I'm sorry but I feel that this little tag placed at the bottom of every track listing scans terribly on the page, and indeed insults the reader's intelligence. Since a compact disc has no sides, of course the track listing format does not indicate any, so tracks are numbered through rather than broken up into sides with side two starting off at one again. I don't think that needs to be reiterated. PJtP ( talk) 02:31, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Re this revert: "Who was Jimmy Cobb and why do we care about him?" Really? This article is a " WP:Good Article" and that quote has been placed under "Recording" for at least 10 years. Martinevans123 ( talk) 07:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
For over ten years it's attracted no adverse comment?- it suggests that if something sticks around long enough it shouldn't be changed and/or is impervious to criticism, which a) doesn't make much sense and b) would make it difficult to make progress in many areas.
Cobb said the album "must have been made in heaven". But it isn't the sort of quote that makes sense to draw out and place in a separate quote box, other than to sort of glorify it. As I said in my original edit, I don't think it even really makes sense to someone skimming the article (and quote boxes/images/captions are read by skimming first - they should be able to stand alone). Popcornfud ( talk) 13:42, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Jimmy Cobb is introduced in the lead. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 07:32, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
Copystrike on the coverage high profile case. -- Greatder ( talk) 08:32, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
@ Martinevans123: basically someone made an 8bit chiptune of their personal interpretation of the music and got sued for using the pixelated version of album picture. It blew up. Some links:
-- Greatder ( talk) 15:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't consider any of the sites you referenced to be relevant or indicative of widespread coverage. And in and of itself, the story seems like a footnote. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 04:24, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
In fact, two of your sources are listed at WP:RSP with cautionary notes. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 04:27, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
Why do we need an entire section dedicated to this story? How is more than one sentence summarizing its connection to the album not sufficient enough? How does mentioning more help readers understand Kind of Blue better? How does not mentioning it at all deprive this article of all requisite information to understand the album? These are the questions we should be asking ourselves. You are free to add the information yourself to the article, but stop tagging it as if it needs this. It doesn't. Piotr Jr. ( talk) 04:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
This edit does not constitute vandalism, nor does it change the meaning or context of the material, nor does it include information not found in already cited sources. It includes incremental changes made in good faith to improve the previous version of this paragraph, which had several areas in need of improvement: 1) the letter 'a' in 'alto' was incorrectly capitalized 2) the sentence's readability is hindered by its clumsy grammar and punctuation as well as its long length 3) the events mentioned near the end of sentence were listed non-chronologically: the mention of 'Kelly...November, 1958' precedes 'Cobb...May, 1958' 4) the sentence as written states that the pianist (Evans) was replaced in 1958, but that a drummer was added— the latter is incorrect, as the previous lineup also had a drummer (Philly Joe Jones) who was replaced in 1958 by Jimmy Cobb. Hagaland ( talk) 05:43, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. But you've left the first paragraph uncited. 𝒮𝒾𝓇 𝒯𝑒𝒻𝓁𝑜𝓃 ( talk | contribs) 15:15, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Done. (I don't have a problem with providing a reference, but it's worth noting that no other information/instrumentalist in that paragraph was cited; perhaps you can enlighten me regarding why...) Hagaland ( talk) 20:53, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
Because you split it from the other text, which had citations toward the end. Which is customary to place a citation covering a whole paragraph at the end and not repeat it elsewhere ( WP:OVERCITE). So can you check your previous revisions and see which citation was verifying that entire paragraph? 𝒮𝒾𝓇 𝒯𝑒𝒻𝓁𝑜𝓃 ( talk | contribs) 21:44, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
What is the point in the 3,495,572 (with reference) under certified sales, when it has been certified platinum 5 times in the US (i.e., sales over 5 million)?
1) It's out of date: It went platinum one more time since this reference was added.
2) Surely the certification agency is the best source.
If it wasn't a good article I'd just do this myself, but perhaps I'm missing some nuance here. Dhalamh ( talk) 09:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
1. The SACD booklet gives 5:37 for "Blue in Green", instead of 5:27.
2. The booklet with the SACD says that the tape recorder was running at the wrong speed for the first three tracks, so they were played back sharp and faster on all releases until the gold Mastersound release. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 03:33, 10 August 2022 (UTC)