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I find this article quite confusing. It seems to say that the pogroms took place with the support of the Bolsheviks, but there don't seem to be references as to whether this is the case. Would it possible to clarify who controlled the territory at the time and whether the pogroms had any sort of official support? Warofdreams talk 18:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Please be informed that every single claim made in this article was based on solid reference with most of it of scientific value. In fact, it is the sheer number of those online references to “Kiev pogrom of 1919” that made it hard for me to place the exact quotation at the exact place once the article was composed in full. I realize that almost every sentence there might draw attention especially of editors with national bias, that’s why I used most of the references I found regardless of their level of importance. However, every word and each and every number claimed can be confirmed by looking through the complete list of references and footnotes. I feel obliged to do it myself as a result of the violent reaction of just one editor, Irpen, to the sheer scope of the article. In fact, a number of passing comments made by Irpen below, could not be confirmed by a single source from the list of references provided in the article. What I sense is a strong aversion to scientific approach on his part, based on raw emotion triggered by the subject. -- Poeticbent talk 03:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I suggest you also read Wikipedia:Vandalism to familiarize yourself of what is and what is not vandalism. My edits are well-explained here. Please seize these silly accusations and get serious if you want to write on such subjects. Articles on killing people cannot be generated by google-linking. Recommendations are below as well as above. -- Irpen 06:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the material about events that were not part of Kiev pogrom. This is not a review article such as History of Jews in Ukraine, in Russia, Antisemitism in Russian Empire, etc. There are more general articles for that, please use this material there. -- Irpen 22:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The article used to talk length about multiple pogroms in various townlets within the Pale of Settlement Ukraine-wide. Kiev was not part of the pale and its pogroms are just that, Kiev pogroms. If you want to talk about large-scale murders all over Ukraine at about that time, do that properly. The article about Kiev pogrom is should be about just that, not anything else. There is Ukraine after Russian Revolution article. There is a History of Jews in Ukraine article. There is also History of Jews in Russia and USSR. Perhaps you may want to start an article about Pogroms in Ukraine in early 20th century or something like that. I would have no objections. I do object to adding random material to random articles.
Finally, the article currently talks about three separate events. Is there any scholarly publication that calls this particular series of events in suburbs of Kiev as "Kiev pogrom". If not, this is an unacceptable synthesis, which is WP:OR. -- Irpen 00:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, I will do some leg work to find out whether these events are connected elsewhere. However, the events in Volhynia, Proskuriv, "all over Ukraine" are separate events at any rates and should not be pasted to a randomly picked article. I don't want to delete encyclopedic info from wp. Nothing of this sort. This is exactly why I commented it out rather than deleted so that it can be moved to proper places.
I suggest the following. Take a look at the existing more general articles were such events might fit. Or start a new article about pogroms in Ukraine from the time of the closing years of the RU empire to the times where Soviet power firmly established (1921) that pretty much ended any mob violence. Please understand that the scope of the articles must fit the title and their actual contents. In the meanwhile I will try to find out whatever I can about Justingrad and a mysterious "Ivankov district" of Kiev and add the info to this article.
While this is being sorted out, I suggest we tag the article with {{ noncompliant}} to preserve the integrity of the WP for the non-editing folks who use Wikipedia as a source of info. -- Irpen 00:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
"Aftermath" of something is usually what is connected to the event by a "cause and effect" connection. The whole Ukraine was being rocked by violence. As always in any wave of country-wide violence Jews who were easiest to abuse suffered most and this anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by all sorts of scum, the worst elements of among all groups: the local mobs, the monarchists, the Poles, the nationalists, the anarchist bands and unaffiliated gangs, "neo-Cossacks", "partisans", etc.
What caused this all is impossible to say in one-two paragraphs but certainly the Kiev pogrom was not the event that caused the rest. Kiev pogrom was nothing more that one such event of the many. General review and analysis belong to review articles rather than event articles. We already have several review articles about events in Ukraine of that time. Another narrower review article can be started. But picking one of such event articles and saturate it with events that are unrelated to it makes a mess and does not help the reader's understanding of this chaotic and violent time. -- Irpen 01:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
So, you propose to leave the article as is while you will be "considering alternative periodization, spacialization"? Think of the impression we make on the accidental visitor who finds that sort of text under such entry? And do you think that Kiev pogrom of 1919 does not deserve to have an article on its own? And if so, what is a more logical place for such article than this one which is already titled as such. Go ahead with your spacialization/periodization and take a look at the existing review articles or start a new one. But the current state of affairs is unacceptable and the reader needs to be warned. -- Irpen 02:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I’d like to repeat, that all references used in this article describe just one point in time, referred to, in all literature I read, as a “Kiev pogrom of 1919”. Also, the places mentioned in the Aftermath have an immediate social, political, economic and cultural connection with each other since most of the towns mentioned are in close proximity. Those are not separate circumstances by any stretch of the imagination. The perpetrators (and the bystanders) would most likely know each other from the local market in Kiev. I have nothing against writing more articles on related subjects, but the title of this article is based in history of the region, and not in an ad hoc debate between Wikipedia editors. -- Poeticbent talk 03:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the article from Kiev Pogrom to Kiev Pogroms since there was an obvious series of unrelated events with different perpetuates and months apart in the time scale. Still the events through out the whole Ukraine are beyond the scope of the article and should be placed elsewhere. There is no chronology in the article, the readers are in loss what happen in March, in April, June, etc. Some facts are dubious:
I am under impression that some sources are misrepresented. E.g. the reference that used to source that the pogroms were carried by the White Army starts with the statement that commanders of the White Army forbade the pogroms and persecuted the perpetuates. The article needs attention from an expert in the history of the Civil War in Ukraine Alex Bakharev 03:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
This is all weird. Ivankiv you mention is about 80 km north from Kiev. Why isn't it an Ivankiv pogrom? Skvira pogrom (mentioned in the article) and Tetiev pogrom (not mentioned but this one was the worst) are close to each other and to known to many Volodarka but 100+ km southwest from Kiev. Finally, some web-links claim that Justingrad was split from Sokolivka in 19th century. There are dozen of Sokolivkas in Ukraine and the nearest to Kiev is of the Vasylkiv raion some 40 km from the city and about 100 km from the other two locations. Who and how met in "Kiev markets", Poeticbent? Does anyone think that these three were committed by the same people really? And what this all has to do with Volhynia and Galicia, unless someone wants to write a review article about the violence overall. If so, why such strange name? I hope the article's tags will not be removed until we address this strange coverage of this important topic properly. -- Irpen 05:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Justingrad was a town of Lypovets uezd, currently Vinnytsia Oblast - quite a long way from Kiev Alex Bakharev 06:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Also would hardly work. The administrative borders of the Kiev Governorate were very much different from modern Kiev Oblast (province) and even now some of the locations are outside of the oblast's modern border. Sokolivka seems to be either the one in Cherkasy or in Vinnytsia province. We would need to figure out the adminstrative subordination of Ivanovka back then. Can very well be outside of Kiev region as well as the Chernigov Governorate stretched to the south much more than modern Chernihiv Oblast reaching up to Kiev itself. In any case, this would have been an ORish name. What is so special about these pogroms to group them together with each other but separate from Tetiev, Chernobyl, Berdichev and many other pogroms? They are not even geographically closer to each other than to some of the locations above. Each pogrom needs a separate article or a review article about pogromism in Ukraine of that time is in order. -- Irpen 18:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The section "series of events" is problematic. According to an NYT article, of that period http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A01E7D7153EE433A25750C1A9679C946195D6CF a pogrom at Fastow (Фастов - Fastiv) killed 400 people. This gives an idea of the scale of events. The report by a USA general to Woodrow Wilson mentions 10,000 -29,000 killed in Ukraine at that time. The Fastiv pogrom is not mentioned in this article, nor are any other large pogroms mentioned and I didn't see that the Kiev pogrom itself is described. If the article is about Kiev pogroms it should have some information about the actual pogrom in Kiev and not just surrounding areas. Perhaps the article should be rewritten as an article about Ukrainian pogroms of this period. [[ Mewnews ( talk) 21:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)]]
There are way too many tags on the articl, some dont make sence at all. Looks to me like WP:POINT Taprobanus ( talk) 14:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Why is the phrase "Petlura's Ukrainian nationalists" used in this article, but without an explanation of who or what Petlura was? 173.88.241.33 ( talk) 23:44, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I find this article quite confusing. It seems to say that the pogroms took place with the support of the Bolsheviks, but there don't seem to be references as to whether this is the case. Would it possible to clarify who controlled the territory at the time and whether the pogroms had any sort of official support? Warofdreams talk 18:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Please be informed that every single claim made in this article was based on solid reference with most of it of scientific value. In fact, it is the sheer number of those online references to “Kiev pogrom of 1919” that made it hard for me to place the exact quotation at the exact place once the article was composed in full. I realize that almost every sentence there might draw attention especially of editors with national bias, that’s why I used most of the references I found regardless of their level of importance. However, every word and each and every number claimed can be confirmed by looking through the complete list of references and footnotes. I feel obliged to do it myself as a result of the violent reaction of just one editor, Irpen, to the sheer scope of the article. In fact, a number of passing comments made by Irpen below, could not be confirmed by a single source from the list of references provided in the article. What I sense is a strong aversion to scientific approach on his part, based on raw emotion triggered by the subject. -- Poeticbent talk 03:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I suggest you also read Wikipedia:Vandalism to familiarize yourself of what is and what is not vandalism. My edits are well-explained here. Please seize these silly accusations and get serious if you want to write on such subjects. Articles on killing people cannot be generated by google-linking. Recommendations are below as well as above. -- Irpen 06:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the material about events that were not part of Kiev pogrom. This is not a review article such as History of Jews in Ukraine, in Russia, Antisemitism in Russian Empire, etc. There are more general articles for that, please use this material there. -- Irpen 22:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The article used to talk length about multiple pogroms in various townlets within the Pale of Settlement Ukraine-wide. Kiev was not part of the pale and its pogroms are just that, Kiev pogroms. If you want to talk about large-scale murders all over Ukraine at about that time, do that properly. The article about Kiev pogrom is should be about just that, not anything else. There is Ukraine after Russian Revolution article. There is a History of Jews in Ukraine article. There is also History of Jews in Russia and USSR. Perhaps you may want to start an article about Pogroms in Ukraine in early 20th century or something like that. I would have no objections. I do object to adding random material to random articles.
Finally, the article currently talks about three separate events. Is there any scholarly publication that calls this particular series of events in suburbs of Kiev as "Kiev pogrom". If not, this is an unacceptable synthesis, which is WP:OR. -- Irpen 00:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, I will do some leg work to find out whether these events are connected elsewhere. However, the events in Volhynia, Proskuriv, "all over Ukraine" are separate events at any rates and should not be pasted to a randomly picked article. I don't want to delete encyclopedic info from wp. Nothing of this sort. This is exactly why I commented it out rather than deleted so that it can be moved to proper places.
I suggest the following. Take a look at the existing more general articles were such events might fit. Or start a new article about pogroms in Ukraine from the time of the closing years of the RU empire to the times where Soviet power firmly established (1921) that pretty much ended any mob violence. Please understand that the scope of the articles must fit the title and their actual contents. In the meanwhile I will try to find out whatever I can about Justingrad and a mysterious "Ivankov district" of Kiev and add the info to this article.
While this is being sorted out, I suggest we tag the article with {{ noncompliant}} to preserve the integrity of the WP for the non-editing folks who use Wikipedia as a source of info. -- Irpen 00:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
"Aftermath" of something is usually what is connected to the event by a "cause and effect" connection. The whole Ukraine was being rocked by violence. As always in any wave of country-wide violence Jews who were easiest to abuse suffered most and this anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by all sorts of scum, the worst elements of among all groups: the local mobs, the monarchists, the Poles, the nationalists, the anarchist bands and unaffiliated gangs, "neo-Cossacks", "partisans", etc.
What caused this all is impossible to say in one-two paragraphs but certainly the Kiev pogrom was not the event that caused the rest. Kiev pogrom was nothing more that one such event of the many. General review and analysis belong to review articles rather than event articles. We already have several review articles about events in Ukraine of that time. Another narrower review article can be started. But picking one of such event articles and saturate it with events that are unrelated to it makes a mess and does not help the reader's understanding of this chaotic and violent time. -- Irpen 01:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
So, you propose to leave the article as is while you will be "considering alternative periodization, spacialization"? Think of the impression we make on the accidental visitor who finds that sort of text under such entry? And do you think that Kiev pogrom of 1919 does not deserve to have an article on its own? And if so, what is a more logical place for such article than this one which is already titled as such. Go ahead with your spacialization/periodization and take a look at the existing review articles or start a new one. But the current state of affairs is unacceptable and the reader needs to be warned. -- Irpen 02:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I’d like to repeat, that all references used in this article describe just one point in time, referred to, in all literature I read, as a “Kiev pogrom of 1919”. Also, the places mentioned in the Aftermath have an immediate social, political, economic and cultural connection with each other since most of the towns mentioned are in close proximity. Those are not separate circumstances by any stretch of the imagination. The perpetrators (and the bystanders) would most likely know each other from the local market in Kiev. I have nothing against writing more articles on related subjects, but the title of this article is based in history of the region, and not in an ad hoc debate between Wikipedia editors. -- Poeticbent talk 03:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the article from Kiev Pogrom to Kiev Pogroms since there was an obvious series of unrelated events with different perpetuates and months apart in the time scale. Still the events through out the whole Ukraine are beyond the scope of the article and should be placed elsewhere. There is no chronology in the article, the readers are in loss what happen in March, in April, June, etc. Some facts are dubious:
I am under impression that some sources are misrepresented. E.g. the reference that used to source that the pogroms were carried by the White Army starts with the statement that commanders of the White Army forbade the pogroms and persecuted the perpetuates. The article needs attention from an expert in the history of the Civil War in Ukraine Alex Bakharev 03:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
This is all weird. Ivankiv you mention is about 80 km north from Kiev. Why isn't it an Ivankiv pogrom? Skvira pogrom (mentioned in the article) and Tetiev pogrom (not mentioned but this one was the worst) are close to each other and to known to many Volodarka but 100+ km southwest from Kiev. Finally, some web-links claim that Justingrad was split from Sokolivka in 19th century. There are dozen of Sokolivkas in Ukraine and the nearest to Kiev is of the Vasylkiv raion some 40 km from the city and about 100 km from the other two locations. Who and how met in "Kiev markets", Poeticbent? Does anyone think that these three were committed by the same people really? And what this all has to do with Volhynia and Galicia, unless someone wants to write a review article about the violence overall. If so, why such strange name? I hope the article's tags will not be removed until we address this strange coverage of this important topic properly. -- Irpen 05:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Justingrad was a town of Lypovets uezd, currently Vinnytsia Oblast - quite a long way from Kiev Alex Bakharev 06:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Also would hardly work. The administrative borders of the Kiev Governorate were very much different from modern Kiev Oblast (province) and even now some of the locations are outside of the oblast's modern border. Sokolivka seems to be either the one in Cherkasy or in Vinnytsia province. We would need to figure out the adminstrative subordination of Ivanovka back then. Can very well be outside of Kiev region as well as the Chernigov Governorate stretched to the south much more than modern Chernihiv Oblast reaching up to Kiev itself. In any case, this would have been an ORish name. What is so special about these pogroms to group them together with each other but separate from Tetiev, Chernobyl, Berdichev and many other pogroms? They are not even geographically closer to each other than to some of the locations above. Each pogrom needs a separate article or a review article about pogromism in Ukraine of that time is in order. -- Irpen 18:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The section "series of events" is problematic. According to an NYT article, of that period http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A01E7D7153EE433A25750C1A9679C946195D6CF a pogrom at Fastow (Фастов - Fastiv) killed 400 people. This gives an idea of the scale of events. The report by a USA general to Woodrow Wilson mentions 10,000 -29,000 killed in Ukraine at that time. The Fastiv pogrom is not mentioned in this article, nor are any other large pogroms mentioned and I didn't see that the Kiev pogrom itself is described. If the article is about Kiev pogroms it should have some information about the actual pogrom in Kiev and not just surrounding areas. Perhaps the article should be rewritten as an article about Ukrainian pogroms of this period. [[ Mewnews ( talk) 21:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)]]
There are way too many tags on the articl, some dont make sence at all. Looks to me like WP:POINT Taprobanus ( talk) 14:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Why is the phrase "Petlura's Ukrainian nationalists" used in this article, but without an explanation of who or what Petlura was? 173.88.241.33 ( talk) 23:44, 13 July 2018 (UTC)