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Hi,
this article implies that 'khubz' is some form of bread common in arab countries, which is not accurate. Khubz is the classic/formal arabic word for bread (check any english/arabic dictionary to verify that)
for example, to say 'pita bread' in arabic, you would say 'khubz pita' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.121.134.104 ( talk) 13:09, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, this article appears to be about pita bread. Pita or pitta is the common English word for the pocket flatbread known in Arabic as khubz arabi (Arabic bread), or sometimes simply khubz (bread) for short. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] All of the references given in the lead paragraph use the word "pita", not "khubz". The photos in the Gallery section are of pita bread. According to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH, the article title must use the established English name, pita, not the name in Arabic. Since the pita article already exists, this article should be merged and redirected to that article.
The article also in some places mixes up two usages of the word khubz, the first being short for khubz arabi or pita, and the second meaning all kinds of bread in general, even "foreign" bread such as French baguette (khubz franji). However, the article is clearly not meant to be about all the different kinds of bread made in Arab countries, of which there are dozens. Even if there was to be such an article, per WP:ENGLISH its title would have to use the English word "bread" rather than the Arabic khubz, for example, "Breads of the Arab world" or something similar.
There is another specific type of bread in Morocco called khobz. It is not pita, and should not redirect there. Until now it redirected here, which is also not correct. I've made a new separate article for it. In Morocco, a bread resembling pita is called batbout, but it is cooked in a pan rather than an oven.
If anyone has any convincing counter-arguments, I'm happy to consider them. Otherwise I plan to move forward with the process of merging this article to the pita article. -- IamNotU ( talk) 01:59, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
I've copied the relevant citations and material into the pita article, as well as to Tandoor bread#West Asia. I'm going to go ahead and blank this article because it's too ambiguous, and we shouldn't have an article for "the Arabic word for bread". I'd hoped there was a "breads" section of the Arab cuisine article that I could redirect it to, but there isn't... I'm not sure yet whether to make a new article, possibly "List of Arab breads", and redirect this there, or make this into a disambiguation page, to disambiguate khubz as the Arabic word for bread, which when used alone may refer to either pita (aka khubz arabi), tandoor bread (aka khubz tannur), Moroccan khobz, etc., depending on the region. -- IamNotU ( talk) 03:39, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
References
The best-known bread of the region is khubz arabi (or, simply, khubz), a round, flat, slightly leavened loaf about one-fourth inch thick and with a pocket inside. It is made in three different sizes: large (eight or more inches in diameter), medium (six to eight inches), and small (about five inches). In America, where it has become very popular, this bread is known as pita. A pocketless version is also available. In some Arab communities khubz arabi is called kmaj (from the Persian kumaj), while in others, kmaj refers only to the pocketless type. [...] In Lebanon pita is often referred to as town bread as opposed to the quite different bread of the countryside, known as khubz marquq or khubz al-jabal (mountain bread), although both are made from the same dough recipe.
pitta - the Israeli and western name for the Arab bread called khubzʿadi ('ordinary bread') or names meaning 'Arab, Egyptian, Syrian bread' or kumaj (a Turkish loanword properly meaning a bread cooked in ashes), baked in a brick bread oven. It is a slightly leavened wheat bread, flat, either round or oval, and variable in size. Typically the bread puffs up in baking leaving it hollow inside like an empty pocket, making it particularly suitable for stuffing to form a sandwich.
The most common type of Arab bread - now ubiquitous in America as pita - is round, flat, and leavened, with a hollow pouch running right through. It is made with various qualities of wheat flours. A coarse wholewheat flour makes a dark, earthy bread with a strong taste; a refined unbleached white flour results in a softer white bread. [...] The flatbread with a pouch which we know as pita is khubz, which means "bread," in the Arab world. In Egypt, eish baladi (eish means "life" and baladi means "local") is made with a mix of whole-wheat and unbleached white flour, while the one made with white flour is called eish shami (shami means "Syrian").
Better known as pita bread in the west, khubz Arabi is the ideal bread for eating with most Arab food.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:08, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
I suggest merging this article with Pita article because they are basically about the same subject. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 ( talk) 12:04, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Oppose Pita is Greek for flatbread. Khubz is Arabi for flatbread. Flatbread is English for flatbread. So merge them all under flatbread? No, that'd be silly, wouldn't it? Then people looking for Pita wouldn't find a Pita page. But Khubz (Khubza Arabi) is a thing - for hundreds of millions of people - and people looking for Khubz (with variants that make it distinctive from Greek pita bread, BTW) wouldn't find that. Just because you have no experience of the Middle East or its cuisine - less ubiquitous than Greek in the US/Europe, but finding increasing popularity (and attracting a great deal of attempts at appropriation on the way), is not a reason to delete it! Next we'll be defining hummus as Greek and then we'll be starting out down a whole world war three rabbit-hole... Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 03:54, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
"Kubz Arabi is NOT pita bread", sure it is, and shouting doesn't change it. Your previously-stated stance that "pita is uniquely Greek" [1] isn't supported by sources, and your edit actually deleting all mention of Arab bread from the pita article and redefining it as Greek [2] does not adhere to WP:NPOV. There are half a dozen citations above and any number more are easily found, that show that the established word in English for two-layer flatbread from the Middle East, and the translation of "khubz Arabi", is "pita". If you don't have access to the OED, it says: "pita: A thick flat bread of the kind common in Mediterranean and Arab countries, usu. cut open and filled with a meat or other filling." -- IamNotU ( talk) 11:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Locally in Syria, the most common variant is the machinery baked pocketed yeast-leavened Pita bread, just called khubz. The other variants have adjectives or nouns added to them to distinguish them from the common variant; 1- khubz asmar (brown bread) : is smaller and thicker than the common variant, uses whole wheat 2- khubz muhalla or khubz siyahi (sweetened bread or tourists bread): uses milk in addition to the common recipe 3- khubz tanour: tandoor bread 4- khubz saj: saj flatbread. These are the most consumed and available variants in Syria. - Kevo327 ( talk) 16:01, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
I rearranged the article to sort out the content and references to pita vs. tandoor bread, and replaced "khubz" with the English equivalent, "bread". It's still not right, because we should not have an article about "the Arabic word for bread". But at least it's not total nonsense now. The majority is about pita, there's almost nothing about tandoor bread (which was originally the subject of the article until people started adding stuff about pita years ago). -- IamNotU ( talk) 19:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Khubz article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
Hi,
this article implies that 'khubz' is some form of bread common in arab countries, which is not accurate. Khubz is the classic/formal arabic word for bread (check any english/arabic dictionary to verify that)
for example, to say 'pita bread' in arabic, you would say 'khubz pita' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.121.134.104 ( talk) 13:09, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, this article appears to be about pita bread. Pita or pitta is the common English word for the pocket flatbread known in Arabic as khubz arabi (Arabic bread), or sometimes simply khubz (bread) for short. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] All of the references given in the lead paragraph use the word "pita", not "khubz". The photos in the Gallery section are of pita bread. According to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH, the article title must use the established English name, pita, not the name in Arabic. Since the pita article already exists, this article should be merged and redirected to that article.
The article also in some places mixes up two usages of the word khubz, the first being short for khubz arabi or pita, and the second meaning all kinds of bread in general, even "foreign" bread such as French baguette (khubz franji). However, the article is clearly not meant to be about all the different kinds of bread made in Arab countries, of which there are dozens. Even if there was to be such an article, per WP:ENGLISH its title would have to use the English word "bread" rather than the Arabic khubz, for example, "Breads of the Arab world" or something similar.
There is another specific type of bread in Morocco called khobz. It is not pita, and should not redirect there. Until now it redirected here, which is also not correct. I've made a new separate article for it. In Morocco, a bread resembling pita is called batbout, but it is cooked in a pan rather than an oven.
If anyone has any convincing counter-arguments, I'm happy to consider them. Otherwise I plan to move forward with the process of merging this article to the pita article. -- IamNotU ( talk) 01:59, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
I've copied the relevant citations and material into the pita article, as well as to Tandoor bread#West Asia. I'm going to go ahead and blank this article because it's too ambiguous, and we shouldn't have an article for "the Arabic word for bread". I'd hoped there was a "breads" section of the Arab cuisine article that I could redirect it to, but there isn't... I'm not sure yet whether to make a new article, possibly "List of Arab breads", and redirect this there, or make this into a disambiguation page, to disambiguate khubz as the Arabic word for bread, which when used alone may refer to either pita (aka khubz arabi), tandoor bread (aka khubz tannur), Moroccan khobz, etc., depending on the region. -- IamNotU ( talk) 03:39, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
References
The best-known bread of the region is khubz arabi (or, simply, khubz), a round, flat, slightly leavened loaf about one-fourth inch thick and with a pocket inside. It is made in three different sizes: large (eight or more inches in diameter), medium (six to eight inches), and small (about five inches). In America, where it has become very popular, this bread is known as pita. A pocketless version is also available. In some Arab communities khubz arabi is called kmaj (from the Persian kumaj), while in others, kmaj refers only to the pocketless type. [...] In Lebanon pita is often referred to as town bread as opposed to the quite different bread of the countryside, known as khubz marquq or khubz al-jabal (mountain bread), although both are made from the same dough recipe.
pitta - the Israeli and western name for the Arab bread called khubzʿadi ('ordinary bread') or names meaning 'Arab, Egyptian, Syrian bread' or kumaj (a Turkish loanword properly meaning a bread cooked in ashes), baked in a brick bread oven. It is a slightly leavened wheat bread, flat, either round or oval, and variable in size. Typically the bread puffs up in baking leaving it hollow inside like an empty pocket, making it particularly suitable for stuffing to form a sandwich.
The most common type of Arab bread - now ubiquitous in America as pita - is round, flat, and leavened, with a hollow pouch running right through. It is made with various qualities of wheat flours. A coarse wholewheat flour makes a dark, earthy bread with a strong taste; a refined unbleached white flour results in a softer white bread. [...] The flatbread with a pouch which we know as pita is khubz, which means "bread," in the Arab world. In Egypt, eish baladi (eish means "life" and baladi means "local") is made with a mix of whole-wheat and unbleached white flour, while the one made with white flour is called eish shami (shami means "Syrian").
Better known as pita bread in the west, khubz Arabi is the ideal bread for eating with most Arab food.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:08, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
I suggest merging this article with Pita article because they are basically about the same subject. Shorouq★The★Super★ninja2 ( talk) 12:04, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Oppose Pita is Greek for flatbread. Khubz is Arabi for flatbread. Flatbread is English for flatbread. So merge them all under flatbread? No, that'd be silly, wouldn't it? Then people looking for Pita wouldn't find a Pita page. But Khubz (Khubza Arabi) is a thing - for hundreds of millions of people - and people looking for Khubz (with variants that make it distinctive from Greek pita bread, BTW) wouldn't find that. Just because you have no experience of the Middle East or its cuisine - less ubiquitous than Greek in the US/Europe, but finding increasing popularity (and attracting a great deal of attempts at appropriation on the way), is not a reason to delete it! Next we'll be defining hummus as Greek and then we'll be starting out down a whole world war three rabbit-hole... Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 03:54, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
"Kubz Arabi is NOT pita bread", sure it is, and shouting doesn't change it. Your previously-stated stance that "pita is uniquely Greek" [1] isn't supported by sources, and your edit actually deleting all mention of Arab bread from the pita article and redefining it as Greek [2] does not adhere to WP:NPOV. There are half a dozen citations above and any number more are easily found, that show that the established word in English for two-layer flatbread from the Middle East, and the translation of "khubz Arabi", is "pita". If you don't have access to the OED, it says: "pita: A thick flat bread of the kind common in Mediterranean and Arab countries, usu. cut open and filled with a meat or other filling." -- IamNotU ( talk) 11:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Locally in Syria, the most common variant is the machinery baked pocketed yeast-leavened Pita bread, just called khubz. The other variants have adjectives or nouns added to them to distinguish them from the common variant; 1- khubz asmar (brown bread) : is smaller and thicker than the common variant, uses whole wheat 2- khubz muhalla or khubz siyahi (sweetened bread or tourists bread): uses milk in addition to the common recipe 3- khubz tanour: tandoor bread 4- khubz saj: saj flatbread. These are the most consumed and available variants in Syria. - Kevo327 ( talk) 16:01, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
I rearranged the article to sort out the content and references to pita vs. tandoor bread, and replaced "khubz" with the English equivalent, "bread". It's still not right, because we should not have an article about "the Arabic word for bread". But at least it's not total nonsense now. The majority is about pita, there's almost nothing about tandoor bread (which was originally the subject of the article until people started adding stuff about pita years ago). -- IamNotU ( talk) 19:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)