This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
The Armenian side refers to Ayaz Mutalibov's interview to claim that the massacre had been committed not by Armenian soldiers but by Azerbaijan Popular Front militants who allegedly shot their own civilians escaping through the corridor.[citation needed] In one of his interviews Mutalibov stated that the event could be a ploy by opposition to denigrate his government.[citation needed]
While the second part of this is conform with the interview I've seen, the first is not. Is there a source for the first as it is writen here? To not be open to interpretation we should stick to quoting him directly. Does everyone agree? Ionidasz ( talk) 18:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Is there any interview other than this one? I don't see explicit support for the first claim:
Из интервью бывшего президента Азербайджана Аяза Муталибова чешской журналистке Дане Мазаловой, "НГ" 2.04.92
Вопрос — Что вы думаете о событиях в Ходжалы, после которых вы ушли в отставку? Трупы ходжалинцев были найдены недалеко от Агдама. Кто-то сначала стрелял в ноги, чтобы они не могли уйти дальше. Потом добавил топором, 29 февраля мои коллеги снимали их. Во время новых съемок, 2 марта, эти же трупы оказались скальпированы. Какая то странная игра...
Ответ— Как говорят те ходжалинцы, которые спаслись, это все было организовано для того, чтобы был повод для моей отставки. Какая-то сила действовала для дискредитации президента. Я не думаю, чтобы армяне, очень четко и со знанием дела относящиеся к подобным ситуациям, могли позволить азербайджанцам получить изобличающие их в фашистских действиях документы. Можно предположить, что кто-то был заинтересован в том, чтобы потом показать эти кадры на сессии ВС и все сфокусировать на моей персоне.
Если я заявляю, что это вина азербайджанской оппозиции, могут сказать, что я на них наговариваю. Но общий фон рассуждений таков, что коридор, по которому люди могли уйти, армянами все-таки был оставлен. Зачем же им тогда стрелять? Тем более на территории, близкой к Агдаму, где к тому времени было достаточно сил, чтобы выйти и помочь людям. Или просто договориться, что мирные жители уходят. Такая практика была все время.
Мне все время говорили, что ходжалинцы держатся, что им нужно помочь оружием, людьми, продуктами. Я дал поручение сделать это вертолетами. Однако летчики, как мне объяснили, отказались туда лететь, поскольку у них нет специальных приборов, чтобы уходить от стингеров. Так прошла почти целая неделя. Там же поблизости располагалась агдамская группировка, которая обязана была все время следить за развитием события. Как только техника окружила Ходжалы, нужно было эвакуировать население. Еще раньше я такое поручение дал по Шуше: мужчин- оставить, а женщин и детей вывезти. Это тоже законы войны: их надо спасать. Мое поведение было объективным и однозначным: я такие поручения давал, но почему в Ходжалах их не выполнили, мне неясно. Я, кстати, несколько раз в этот период говорил с Мкртчяном, председателем ВС НКР: "Вы уложили тысячи людей. Дайте нам возможность вывезти их трупы". Но он ответил, что никаких трупов быть не должно, у них есть наши люди, которых кормят, хотя продовольствия не хватает, и готовы отпустить в обмен на своих заложников.
Вопрос — Когда вам сообщили об этих погибших?
Ответ— На следующий день после того, как передали, что в Ходжалах всего несколько погибших. Пришла информация министра внутренних дел.
Вопрос — Кто ответствен был за эту информацию?
Ответ— Сам министр. К тому времени была создана пресс-служба и в Министерстве обороны. После истории с вертолетом мы договорились, что никто не будет давать непроверенной информации.
Вопрос— Считаете ли вы ответственным и премьер-министра Гасана Гасанова?
Ответ— Глава правительства, конечно, отвечает за все, хотя он от этого открещивается, говоря, что не занимается подобными вопросами. Но правительство есть правительство. Ionidasz ( talk) 18:33, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
A correction, for a reason I switched them, I meant to say, the second phrase is suported not the first. Lets stick in quoting him. Ionidasz ( talk) 03:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Checking the scan several time, we need to ask the opinion of someone who write a lot about US politics and know what the document means.
Here we have a primary source which says on top Citation which was offered by Ellen Story which was read by a speaker of the house. It seems to be a speech not endorsed by anyone else than the person who offered it, which is Ellen Story. In this context what Grandmaster provided writen by her makes sense, which was: Unlike Congress, the MA state legislature does not typically print commemoratory documents or speeches in its journal. The record is the citation itself. Since it was not something to vote or debate and not on the agenda, there can be no trace of it in its journal. But, democratically, everything which is voted, there should be a track record of it in the journal.
In this context on February 25, 2010 the Massachusetts House of Representatives adopted a document is not accrtate since it was not adopted, since not voted and endorsed by the members. Statments, citations are made on daily basis but those are not adopted documents. So the primary source seems to contradict the Azeri sources claiming any adoption.
If what I wrote is accurate, this should be simply removed from the article, as it's far from being an international reaction. It's just a statment made by someone. Ionidasz ( talk) 00:24, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
OK, I have a proposal, it remains but with the following form.
On February 25, 2010, state representative Ellen Story offered a citation to the Massachusetts House of Representatives which in its name offers "its sincerest acknowledgment of the 18th commemoration of the Khojaly Massacre."
I personally believe the info is not notable, and if given such an undue weight, citations could rain on every claimed events so that it becomes worth inclusion. But if it's going to stop edit warring I'm ready to make a concession even if I personnally believe its addition is unencyclopedic and only lowers the quality of the article. Ionidasz ( talk) 00:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
BTW, of course the speaker signed it, he took act of the document. This is self-evident. Ionidasz ( talk) 05:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, I really have to go right now, but pick any neutral user who knows about US politics and you will see that he will basically endorse my description above. Ionidasz ( talk) 05:22, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Grandmaster, I don't know how it works in Azerbaijan, and contact Story you will understand, the speaker obviously signed the document. The speaker decides who speak, he endorsed the citation being read. Claiming that Story offered means she recieved the permission to read the document. Citations are being read on daily basis and the speaker sign since he took note, or took act. It's a none-issue really. I don't know Azerbaijan politic, but there must be someone obviously who moderate the chamber, house, etc. Claiming the speaker in this article is dumb, it's redondant, plus not everyone will understand what it means. And will give no info on the author of the citation, the person who offered it. Ionidasz ( talk) 15:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I won't repeat myself, I'll fill a request for third opinion when I have time. Ionidasz ( talk) 02:42, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Grandmaster, you are not really telling the truth! "According to Azerbaijani media, on February 25, 2010 the Massachusetts House of Representatives adopted a document, offering "its sincerest acknowledgment of the 18th commemoration of the Khojaly Massacre". First of all, telling that the HOUSE ADOPTED is false. Secondly, if not false (though it is), then it is an INTERPRETATION. And thirdly, Azeri news have spread the news as if it was a recognition by the house, and so are propaganda means (at least in this case) and cannot be cited. Aregakn ( talk) 21:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC) Why did suddenly everybody stop arguing? Usually things continued till an official dispute process. Aregakn ( talk) 10:38, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The below citations of Divot's communication with Ms. Story leaves no doubts that this is such an unnotable event for it to be mentioned in an encyclopedia, leave alone calling it anything connected to the House itself. But if there are still doubts by the advocators of the Azeri media, then the dispute resolution process is the only way to bring the truth to WP. Aregakn ( talk) 12:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I propose killing the title of this article as there is no evidence of role in the massacre as it implies. I, on the other hand, propose the content to be merged in the background section. This preceded most of the human tragedy even if there was human tragedy in Khojali itself too. Ionidasz ( talk) 01:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
See above, I did not dispute there was a tragedy inside Khojali itself. We'll discuss this on monday, I'll take a brake until then. Ionidasz ( talk) 04:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Due to a prolonged discussion of the subject document and the absense of secondary WP:RS to properly present the case, I request an edit adding
to the section "According to Azerbaijani media, on February 25, 2010 the Massachusetts House of Representatives adopted a document, offering "its sincerest acknowledgment of the 18th commemoration of the Khojaly Massacre"." As well as delete the 3 Azeri media reports (and news summary) as unreliable as per discussion according to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2 and Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Today.az_and_U.S._Azeris_Network discussion Aregakn ( talk) 22:37, 31 May 2010 (UTC) Aregakn ( talk) 22:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Letter 1
Story, Ellen - Rep. (HOU)
It is a commemoration of the events of that day on the occaison of the anniversary, and not a statement of policy or opinion.
- From: ***** [2]
- To: Story, Ellen - Rep. (HOU)
- Subject: Re: Khojaly Massacre
- Dear Helen Story
- Thanks for the quick response. And whose opinion reflects this document? I'm the editor "Khojaly massacre" articles in Wikipedia and I need to understand exactly how to describe this document
- Story, Ellen - Rep. (HOU) <Ellen.Story@state.ma.us>
- Dear Mr. *******,
- The document adopted is a citation, which is a standard document used to commemorate events or congratulate individual acheivement. They are not printed in the record of the House of Representatives, which is why it can't be found on the state website. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the entire membership of the House or of Massachusetts, but it is an official docment of commemoration of the event at Khojaly.
- Yours sincerely,
- Ellen Story
- State Representative
- From: ****** [3]
- To: Story, Ellen (HOU )
- Subject: Khojaly Massacre
- Dear Helen Story
- Last month in the Azerbaijani newspapers, a large number of messages that on February 25, 2010 the Massachusetts House of Representatives adopted a document, offering "its sincerest acknowledgement of the 18th commemoration of the Khojaly Massacre" (f.e. http://www.today.az/news/society/66724.html), includes links to the document ( http://www.usazeris.org/MA%20House%20of%20Rep%20citation%20of%20Khojaly%20Massacare.pdf). But at the site of Massachusetts I can not find anything like that. Could you explain what took Massachusetts House of Representatives?
- Best rgrds,
Letter 2
From: Story, Ellen - Rep. (HOU) <Ellen.Story@state.ma.us>
Date: Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: Controversial Citation about Khojaly Events
To: Z.
Dear Mr. Z.,
Thank you for your e-mail. The issuance of a citation is an action taken by an individual legislator or groups of legislators, normally for the purposes of congratulations or commemoration, and are submitted on behalf of the House. Citations do not confer stances on policy or opinion. The particular citation in question was requested by a constituent of mine for events commemorating the Khojaly Massacre on the occaision of its anniversary, which is what the document cites.
In direct answer to your questions:
1) No.
2) It expresses neither.
3) No.
4) No. It is not clear to me who you mean by "council" as there is no state governmental body which goes by that name. To my knowledge, there were no events in Massachusetts at all regarding this event, and there definitely were none in the State House.
Once again, thank you for writing.
Yours sincerely,
Ellen Story
________________________________ From: Z.
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:40 PM
To: Story, Ellen (HOU )
Subject: Controversial Citation about Khojaly Events
Dear Rep. Ellen Story,
I am a resident of Cambridge, MA, and I am writing in regards with a citation that House adopted on February 25th, 2010, commemorating Khojaly events. As you may know, this citation has created a lot of controversy and confusion in Republics of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh, as well as in the large Armenian community in Massachusetts. There is a lot of speculation in the media and a lot of contradictory information. I was hoping you could clarify what actually happened and what this citation actually implies. I would highly appreciate it, if your office could shed some light on this situation. My questions are as follows:
1. Do these kinds of citations require majority voting, or can they be proposed and signed/adopted by just an individual in the council (or by a limited number of representatives)?
2. If it is the latter, would it be safe to assume that the citation expresses views of individual(s) and not the whole MA House of Representatives?
3. Are there any legal implications of this citation? Does this mean that Massachusetts House of Representatives officially recognizes Khojaly events as a massacre? If yes, who are the sides that House considers as victims and perpetrators of Khojaly massacre?
4. Was there an official event organized in the House to commemorate the Khojaly events? If yes, was it organized and sponsored by the House or just by a member of council?
Again, I would highly appreciate it if you could clarify the situation. Detailed answers would provide a clear understanding, which, in turn, will help ease the tensions that this citation has created in the large Armenian population in Massachusetts and will stop speculations in the media.
Respectfully,
Z.
Divot ( talk) 19:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Hope both side agree's, as my edits are neutral and accurate and per policy. Ionidasz ( talk) 17:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I see no problem here. Grand master 04:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
If Eynulla Fatullayev denied saying that he thinks Azeri Army did it, then there is no need to publish that he said it, without any citation. This is just pure manipulation. Also it would be great if Armenians stopped publishing nonsense 'citation needed' at the end. I can say anything without any reference. And please don't use USSR Armenian Encyclopedia, or an Armenian ultra-nationalist newspaper that is read no one but some crazy dashnaksutyun members. Same goes with "quotations" from Ayaz Mutallibov.
The article as of now is one sided. Ionidasz ( talk) 16:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Content of the article should be disputed, as further investigation is required. Though I have no direct information about this "Khojalu Massacre", it wouldn't be hard to find local sources on the topic. Unlike our Azerbaijani colleagues, I would consider that kind of information politically as biased as the Azerbaijani side, and I'd prefer not to put biased information on Wikipedia. What I can tell for sure is what I witnessed myself - Azerbaijani citizens were indeed provided by means of immigration from Armenia during the war as the ethnic nature of the conflict threatened their safety as well as public order. Unlike their Armenian counterparts from Azerbaijan, who literally fled for their life, they were given time to move and fully compensated for their property. Also, after the city of Lachin capitulated to the Armenian armed forces, the population of the city was allowed to evacuate at their will, and no kind of violence was used against them. This is what I saw myself, and this isn't the behavior of a side, which organized "ethnic cleanings" and "massacres". Yes, I've witnessed cruelty on both sides - with Azerbaijani soldiers hermetically sealing Armenians inside steel barrels and leaving for the advancing Armenian forces to find - as well as Armenian soldiers, drawing crosses on their foreheads with dead Azerbaijani children's blood. Neither of this can be justified or presented as necessity, these were horrible deeds and a horrible war. And many crimes were committed, by people of both sides. And now standing and lying about what was and was nat, is a greater crime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.76.11.169 ( talk) 17:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
As mentioned in many of the edit histories, this article is a contentious one, and the current version has been agreed on over a period of time by Armenian, Azerbaijani and non-partisan editors. Any change made to this version should be agreed on the talk page by all sides before being implemented. - Francis Tyers · 17:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
This is what happened to the people who remained in Khojaly: [5] [6] They were cruelly killed by the Armenian forces. The pictures were taken by the Russian journalist who entered the town together with the Armenian soldiers. So there's no way for the Armenian side to deny the fact of brutal killing of innocent women and children by the Armenian armed forces. Grand master 08:42, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
It should also be discussed, if this kind of simple matters are worth mentioning in Wikipedia. Somebody in Uganda would announce something and we can include it too and it will start looking like an article of lots of unnotable events. Why would unnotable events start being put in WP? Aregakn ( talk) 10:57, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Are there any other letters than those that Divot presented? From those answers she had it seems not to be a house document. Emilio1974 ( talk) 18:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
1. ...can (these kinds of citations) be proposed and signed/adopted by just an individual in the council..?
1) No.
2. If it is the latter, would it be safe to assume that the citation expresses views of individual(s) and not the whole MA House of Representatives?
2) It expresses neither.
3. Are there any legal implications of this citation? Does this mean that Massachusetts House of Representatives officially recognizes Khojaly events as a massacre ?
3) No.
4. Was there an official event organized in the House to commemorate the Khojaly events?
4) No... To my knowledge, there were no events in Massachusetts at all regarding this event, and there definitely were none in the State House.
You are not quoting her, you are interpreting her and I showed it thrice. Time for other instances to be involved for the dispute, I guess. Of course, proven that it is not the duck or puppet of our "pro-Azeri group". Aregakn ( talk) 18:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
What is this voting for? You do not need to vote to follow WP:DR. I think you should go ahead and request WP:RFC. Grand master 05:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
I see it is more accurate to change the name of the article to "Khojaly Events" because of the highly disputed and contradicted sources provided in the article such as the Azerbaijani president's interview given to the Czech journalist Jana Mazalova, published in the 2 April 1992 issue of Nizavisimaya Gazeta, Moscow. His statements during the interview could destruct all the Azerbaijani allegations about a "massacre". Kevorkmail ( talk) 05:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
A case disputed by one journalist who clearly has an agenda is anything but "highly-disputed." Mutallibov has refuted those claims, and all international human rights organisations have described the event as an Armenian-committed massacre against civilian Azerbaijani population. What you have got there is not enough to rename the article. There is a lot more controversy surrounding this article, and a lot more sources that disagree with its name, yet I doubt that you will be happy with renaming it "1915 events." Parishan ( talk) 17:54, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Kevorkmail, Eynulla Fatullayev is not an expert on the facts of Khojaly massacre, neither did EHCR establish him as one. You are welcome to incorporate his claims and EHCR stuff on the Wiki page on Fatullayev. Atabəy ( talk) 23:31, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Controversial official statements which confronts the pro-Azerbaijani statemnts are constantly being removed without justifications. Salah Mar1978 ( talk) 11:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:KhojalyMassacre.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 03:29, 9 December 2011 (UTC) |
There are no any information about it at Pakistani Senate "Orders of the Day". 77th Session's links: 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 24, ets. There are no any information about Khojaly. Please, looking for a more reliable source. Divot ( talk) 21:13, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
If it is true, then it necessarily must be published in the first class news agency. BBC Azeri to help you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Amen! Divot ( talk) 00:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Here is mexican sources about recognition http://www.diputados.gob.mx/servicios/datorele/LXI_LEG/1_POS_IIIANO/08-dic-11/8e.htm
as well as Mexican Senate's Foreign Relation Committee's resolution, which mentions the Khojaly massacre http://www.senado.gob.mx/index.php?ver=sp&mn=2&sm=2&id=11745&lg=61
-- NovaSkola ( talk) 04:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Please, don't adding disputed information. Discuss proposed changes on the talk page, cite your sources, and work to build a consensus. If you don't understand spanish, ask someone, who know. If you want know who am I, you can ask Grandmaster, or see Russian Wikipedia. or ask checkusers, of course. Divot ( talk) 09:58, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
BTW. The Nation: "The Foreign Relations Committee of Senate has condemned...". Where do you see "Senate of Pakistan has recognized events in 1992 as genocide"? Divot ( talk) 10:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
[11], [12], [13] Just a few sources to include mentioned information, and for my Armenian friends: instead of trying to refute each citation please try to find better sources to contribute Wikipedia.Tanks.-- Abbatai 20:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Viernes, 04 de Noviembre de 2011. Primer Periodo Ordinario. No. Gaceta: 302
SEGUNDO.- Recuerda que a mбs de 19 aсos de la masacre de Jodyalн, la justicia no ha llegado a las vнctimas, por lo que manifiesta que un elemento central para cualquier acuerdo de paz deberнa ser el poner en marcha a la brevedad, medidas que contribuyan a sanar los vнnculos entre los pueblos y a reconstruir tan pronto como sea posible la armonнa entre ambas sociedades.
Nothing about "passed a decision consisting of articles of agreement on Armenian-Azerbaijani, Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and called as genocide by international human rights organizations". Azerbaijani media again lying. Divot ( talk) 10:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
It's not the Senate, its the Foreign relations committee and there is no mention of any genocides. -- George Spurlin ( talk) 06:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
DE LA COMISIÓN DE RELACIONES EXTERIORES, CON PUNTOS DE ACUERDO SOBRE EL CONFLICTO ARMENIAAZERBAIYÁN RESPECTO A NAGORNO KARABAJ != Senate of Mexico passed a decision. Please learn the Spanish language. Divot ( talk) 09:56, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm a well known sockuppet? Where did you hear that? I don't recall ever talking to you before? -- George Spurlin ( talk) 23:47, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
There is no any information about it at Embassy of Azerbaijan in Mexico. Last news - "El Presidente de Azerbaiyán, recibe al secretario de Marina de EE.UU." 21.11.2011. Divot ( talk) 02:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
I can't find a single Dutch source mentioning the "Million signatures" in 2011. How is it possible that 6% of the entire population of a country signs a petition, but no news-agency writes about it? Very suspicious. -- va c io 15:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
"In February 2012, Bosnian city Sarajevo unveiled memorial to the victims" - Where is it unveiled? Maybe in the territory of the Azerbaijani embassy. Divot ( talk) 21:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Please stop misinterpreting the words of Fataliyev. He says nothing close to what is ascribed to him. Grand master 22:33, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
The text below is translated inaccurately and is being misinterpreted.
Həmin iclasda qərara gəldilər ki, əgər Xocalıdan camaat çıxarılsa, ermənilər bunu oraya girmək üçün əsas kimi qəbul edəcəklər. Yəni biz özümüz onları Xocalıya girməyə təhrik etmiş olacağıq. Hətta Təhlükəsizlik Şurasının üzvləri də inanmırdılar ki, ermənilər sonradan genosidə çevrilən belə bir işə gedərlər. Onlar düşünürdülər ki, xalq ordan getsə Xocalını özümüz təslim etmiş olacağıq. Bu siyasi uzaqgörənliyin olmaması, situasiyanı bilməmək Xocalı hadisəsinə gətirib çıxırdı ki, mənim də tribunadan dediyim bu idi.
He said that some people at the meeting objected the evacuation, because if the population left the town, it would be an invitation for Armenians to attack it, and at that time members of security council did not believe that Armenians could commit the genocide. As you can see, he does not say that Armenians did not or could not commit genocide, he only said that no one expected that they would, but they were wrong. Grand master 23:30, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Also, www.panorama.am is not a neutral source. It cannot be used as a reference. Grand master 23:32, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
http://eucfa.eu/index.php/konflikt-um-artsakh-berg-karabach-konflikt is an Armenian propaganda source. Not third party, cannot be used. Grand master 23:37, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Also, how many times can the article mention this Eynulla Fatullayev guy? He was only 16 when the massacre took place, he was not there at the time. He wrote a few stupid articles, but he cannot be considered as reliable as HRW or Memorial, who were there after the massacre. Grand master 23:43, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
I checked Fatullayev's statement to the European Court of Human Rights, and he says that he never accused the Azerbaijani side of having anything to do with the massacre, he says that he was only quoting what Armenians told him. So I see no reason for extensive quoting of this guy, he does not support what Armenian media ascribes to him. Grand master 00:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Please explain who "European Center for Artsakh e.V" are. Why should they be considered reliable? Who are they anyway? Grand master 01:23, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I could not find anywhere in Memorial's report this section:
It is a fact that an organized evacuation of Khojaly's people was not carried out. It was not carried out, although the authorities of Khojaly, the High Command and the administration of the Azerbaijani fighters were informed and knew about the humanitarian corridor which was established for this purpose.
The report only says:
С осени 1991 г. Ходжалы был практически блокирован армянскими вооруженными формированиями, а после вывода внутренних войск из Нагорного Карабаха установилась полная блокада. С января 1992 г. в Ходжалы не подавалась электроэнергия. Часть жителей покинула блокированный город, однако полной эвакуации мирного населения, несмотря на настойчивые просьбы главы исполнительной власти Ходжалы Э.Мамедова, организовано не было.
From fall 1991 Khojaly was practically blockaded by the Armenian armed forces, and after the withdrawal of the (Soviet) internal troops from Karabakh the blockade became total. No electricity has been supplied since January 1992. Some inhabitants left the blockaded town, but the full evacuation of the civilian population was not carried out, despite insistent demands of the head of executive power of Khojaly E.Mamedov.
Therefore the quoting should be accurate. Also, what is the point in flooding the article with quotes about the lack of evacuation? The reader will get the point from a single line of Memorial report. There's no excuse for inserting repetitive quotes saying the same thing. The failure to evacuate is still not a justification for the mass killing of civilians. I would like to invite everyone to discuss here before making controversial edits. Grand master 14:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Is this a bad joke?! Where is the difference between trend.az, news.az, today.az (all Azerbaijani News sites) and panorama.am (Armenian News site)??
This is called having double standards - Unacceptable! --
Aghetrichter (
talk)
16:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
This article is absolutely infected by a double moral standard! It is really hard to write anything which presents the Armenian point of view as the two Users of obviously Azerbaijani origin "Grandmaster" and "Angel670" are deleting everything or shorten it extremely.
There are a couple of Azerbaijani statements in the article which are based only on Azerbaijani (=partisan) sources but they are just marked with "Third-party source needed" and that's it... where as statements presented for the Armenian point of view, sourced with russian, armenian AND non-partisan sources are deleted completely! -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:20, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I would not call it "marginal point of views" what for example the Azerbaijani president, Arif Yunusov (Azerbaijani civil rights activist), Jagub Mamedov (interim president of Azerbaijan) or Chingiz Mustafayev (Azerbaijani Photographer, Print reporter) said about Khojaly, namely that the Azerbaijani authorities have to be blamed for what has happened. If there are so many high ranking Azerbaijani voices saying the opposite of what the official Azerbaijani version is, that is not a "marginal point of view" at all, because these Azerbaijani statements challenge the official Azerbaijani point of view! Also Human Rights Watch (in your words, the "most reliable source") said that both sides commited atrocities. However, even this part has completely been deleted and can be found nowhere in the article. – Again a proof of double standards-- Aghetrichter ( talk) 01:04, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I advise you the last time to refrain from accusations. If you are unable to participate in this article as an Azerbaijani person in an objective way, please leave this topic and let people do their work! Calling every Armenian source "propaganda" is also just proving who you really are and that you should absolutely not participate on this topic. You again proved what was alreay clear by watching your behaviour, that you mainly want this article to present the Azerbaijani version! This is more than clear! Then change the name of the article to "Azerbaijanis version of the Khojaly massacre".
I will not accept this way of working and will crack down on this,-- Aghetrichter ( talk) 14:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The article says "Mutalibov stated that the event could be a ploy by opposition to denigrate his government." where as the source says "he declared that the massacre at Khodjaly was "organized" by his political opponents to force his resignation."
This is a huge difference. This again just proves that everything concerning the Armenian point of view is extremely downplayed in this entire article. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The overwhelming evidence of what happened has not stopped some Armenians, in distasteful fashion, trying to muddy the waters. The then Azerbaijani president Ayaz Mutalibov made a bitter remark accusing his political opponents of involvement in the killings, which he later disavowed. But that has not stopped his quotation being endlessly cited in Armenia. More disturbing is the evidence of the Czech journalist Dana Mazalova, whom I met briefly last year in Armenia and have since corresponded with. Mazalova saw the original footage shot by the Azerbaijani cameraman Chingiz Mustafiev of the dead bodies and says that she did not see there the signs of mutilation that were in later footage. That has the grisly implication that someone interfered with the corpses afterwards.
- But if you want corroborating sources that Azerbaijani civilians were killed by Armenians how about the most famous Armenian warrior of the Karabakh war and the current Armenian president? According to the memoir of his brother, Californian-born Armenian nationalist commander Monte Melkonian, was on the scene shortly afterwards and was disgusted by what he saw, blaming the killings on the “indiscipline” of two fanatical paramilitary units named Arabo and Aramo. And Serzh Sarkisian, now president of Armenia, confirmed to me in an interview in December 2000 that Armenian armed men had indeed killed Azerbaijani civilians.
de Waal is not used as a source in the sentence I am refering to. The sentence in the article is "In one of his interviews Mutalibov stated that the event could be a ploy by opposition to denigrate his government." This sentence is sourced to Caroline Cox. Carolin Cox's original sentence which is used in a false way in the article is: "...he declared that the massacre at Khodjaly was "organized" by his political opponents to force his resignation. " - The article says it could be to designate his government, where as the source says that it actually was to force his resignation. These are two different things!
What is done here is again downplaying the (pro-Armenian) content of what Mutalibov first said. What Mutalibov afterwards said, what you explained, has nothing to do with this sentence right now, because this sentence allegedly presents what he first said. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 04:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
You are absolutaley unsuitable and bigoted due to your Azerbaijani origin. This is obvious! You are very wrong with your accusation and I advise you to refrain from such accusations. Why you stick to the word "denigrate"? The main phrase is "could be", what he allegedly said. But what he really said is it "was". This is downplaying and I except it to be changed to the truth. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 14:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I am not threatening anybody. I am just reacting to your accusations and asked you to stop this. Furthermore I am not attacking you, I just stated that your answers and your acts of deleting make the impression as if you want this article to be "pro-Azerbaijani" and not objective. Please modify the sentences in the right way. Thanks. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:00, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I repeat:
"The section "Manipulated evidence" has almost completely been deleted with inexplicable reasons. The User "Grandmaster" (by the way: This user page has been vandalized 23 times) is almost deleting everything which is not "pro-Azerbaijani" and against his view, probably because of his own Azerbaijani backgroud which I found unsustainable! The reasons for deleting almost the entire section "manipulated evidence" was "neutral tone, rm unsourced chunks, speculation and partisan referencing, please discuss before further additions". Please explain me what exactly you mean with "unsourced chunks"? Every "chunk" in my text ends with sources! Altogether there are 10 different sources mentioned. And just to get this clear… Azerbaijani news-sites or obviously dubious sources like "www.hocalisoykirimi.com" are accepted and ok but sources like... - an original video interview of the person one is citing - Armenian news-sites - Russian news-websites (third-party-source) - the report "Ethnic Cleansing in Progress" (third-party-source) - "The European Center for Artakh" (a registered association from Germany) ... which are all sources I have used for "manipulated evidence" are considered to be "speculation and partisan referencing"?! If an original video interview is used to depict something, this is called "speculation"?! How can something be speculation if the fact can be heard in a video? As long as Azerbaijani sources are considered to be neutral and non-partisan I don't want my detailed sourced(!) texts to be deleted completey just because it does not fit to someones point of view." --Aghetrichter (talk) 02:15, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
As for your sources, as Brandmeister said, they are all partisan, including The European Center for Artakh, which is run by the Armenian diaspora. The official page of the website speaks for itself. Please use third party sources only. And hocalisoykirimi has not been used in the article. Grandmaster 07:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The history shows clearly that everything which is not pro-Azerbaijani is being deleted completey or shortened extremely by Grandmaster who comes from Azerbaijan. It seems as if he is not objective in this case.
I extensively explained that a lot of Azerbaijani sources, like news websites or the dubious website " http://www.hocalisoykirimi.com" have been used (Grandmaster is false, see Source #10) and obviously accepted in the article "Khojaly Massacre". I am really asking myself why Armenian News websites, Russian News websites, "pro-Armenian"-third-party-sources on the other hand are considered to be "partisan" but Azerbaijani sources are not?! This is absurd!
Moreover the structure which you have used for this Article is absolutely inappropriate for this issue and is the main problem for all this disscussions and problems. In the case of the "Khojaly massacre" there is actualy clearly an "Azerbaijani point of view" (where Azerbaijani sources should be accepted), an "Armenian point of view" (where Armenian sources should be accepted) and an "International point of view". And all three different evaluations have to be presented in a seperate own topic for a better comprehension (which should be the intention of Wikipedia), all other structure in this case leads to deleting statements and extremly shortening because something does not fit to ones point of view (like in the case of Azerbaijani Grandmaster).-- Aghetrichter ( talk) 16:37, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The sources you list like Armenian online news, including the Armenian diaspora page registered in Germany or Russia, are in fact non-neutral and partisan. You can not use everything you find on the web to modify the article and push aggressively your personal point of view. Angel670 talk 17:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
(I again bring up this question, as it seems that non of you (probably Azerbaijani or turkish Admins) is able to answer it) Where is the difference between trend.az, news.az, today.az (all Azerbaijani News sites) and for example panorama.am (Armenian News site)?? This is called having double standards - Unacceptable! I am not pushing my point of view. I am just presenting the Armenian point of view. Seems as if some of you all are extremely bigoted -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 23:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Your way of answering and the choice of your words (calling everything "pro-Armenian" a "conspiracy theory") just prove that you are bigoted because of your obviously Azerbaijani origin. The Armenian version is absolutely not featured very prominently. And the few facts which are presented are attached with adjectives, which imply the Armenian version to be untrue. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:03, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Thomas De Waal confirms what aghetricher says. http://carnegie.ru/publications/?fa=42579
More disturbing is the evidence of the Czech journalist Dana Mazalova, whom I met briefly last year in Armenia and have since corresponded with. Mazalova saw the original footage shot by the Azerbaijani cameraman Chingiz Mustafiev of the dead bodies and says that she did not see there the signs of mutilation that were in later footage. That has the grisly implication that someone interfered with the corpses afterwards.
This claims are not coming from Armenian news it is the Czech journalist heavily worked during the Nagorno-Karabakh war. There is a good 3rd party source so aghet has the right to put up this section Ali55te ( talk) 23:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The overwhelming evidence of what happened has not stopped some Armenians, in distasteful fashion, trying to muddy the waters. The then Azerbaijani president Ayaz Mutalibov made a bitter remark accusing his political opponents of involvement in the killings, which he later disavowed. But that has not stopped his quotation being endlessly cited in Armenia.
I think de Waal's opinion about the attempt to muddy the waters should be quoted separately, in a different passage. As for Mustafayev, the circumstances of his death are well known. According to his brother Vahid Mustafayev, he was fatally wounded when a shell exploded right beside him and a splinter from the shell severed one of his major arteries. By the time Chingiz was delivered to the hospital, he died of blood loss. [15] There's no reliable evidence to connect his death with events in Khojaly. Grand master 23:53, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Mazalova is also mentioned in the article. What is the problem? Even de Waal says that overwhelming evidence proves the guilt of Armenian side, and the attempts to muddy the waters are distasteful. We should give prominence to prevailing view, in accordance with the rules. Minority view cannot be given equal weight in accordance with WP:Weight. I understand that many in Armenia can believe that Azerbaijanis killed themselves to depose their president, but that's not what the international community thinks. The reports of Memorial and HRW are the most reliable sources, since those organizations are not connected neither to Azerbaijan nor Armenia. One interesting thing about the Armenian propagandist websites is that they keep denying the massacre even after their president Sargsyan admitted that the Armenian side committed it to intimidate Aerbaijanis. This means that they accuse their president of lying. Quite strange. Grand master 00:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Check your facts: Wikipedia says: "In some cases, video clips published on YouTube may be acceptable as primary sources if their authenticity can be confirmed" This is the case with the CNN-Video on Youtube about Mustafaev and the Novosti-Video of Dana Mazalovas Press conference where she describes, that the corpes have been multilated afterwards-- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Grandmaster can you please copy paste exactly the paragraph where it says Arabo and Aramo stabbed death civillians in Khojaly massacare ? Because I am having hard time to find this information. Ali55te ( talk) 01:08, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Here:
At about 11:00 p.m. the night before, some 2,000 Armenian fighters had advanced through the high grass on three sides of Knojalu, forcing the residents out through the open side to the east. By the morning of February 26, the refugees had made it to the eastern cusp of Mountainous Karabagh and had begun working their way downhill, toward safety in the Azeri city of Agdam, about six miles away. There, in the hillocks and within sight of safety, Mountainous Karabagh soldiers had chased them down. "They just shot and shot and shot," a refugee woman, Raisha Aslanova, testified to a Human Rights Watch investigator. The Arabo fighters had then unsheathed the knives they had carried on their hips for so long, and began stabbing.
Grand master 01:11, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Also de Waal writes:
According to the memoir of his brother, Californian-born Armenian nationalist commander Monte Melkonian, was on the scene shortly afterwards and was disgusted by what he saw, blaming the killings on the “indiscipline” of two fanatical paramilitary units named Arabo and Aramo.
Grand master 01:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
The Armenian side refers to Ayaz Mutalibov's interview to claim that the massacre had been committed not by Armenian soldiers but by Azerbaijan Popular Front militants who allegedly shot their own civilians escaping through the corridor.[citation needed] In one of his interviews Mutalibov stated that the event could be a ploy by opposition to denigrate his government.[citation needed]
While the second part of this is conform with the interview I've seen, the first is not. Is there a source for the first as it is writen here? To not be open to interpretation we should stick to quoting him directly. Does everyone agree? Ionidasz ( talk) 18:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Is there any interview other than this one? I don't see explicit support for the first claim:
Из интервью бывшего президента Азербайджана Аяза Муталибова чешской журналистке Дане Мазаловой, "НГ" 2.04.92
Вопрос — Что вы думаете о событиях в Ходжалы, после которых вы ушли в отставку? Трупы ходжалинцев были найдены недалеко от Агдама. Кто-то сначала стрелял в ноги, чтобы они не могли уйти дальше. Потом добавил топором, 29 февраля мои коллеги снимали их. Во время новых съемок, 2 марта, эти же трупы оказались скальпированы. Какая то странная игра...
Ответ— Как говорят те ходжалинцы, которые спаслись, это все было организовано для того, чтобы был повод для моей отставки. Какая-то сила действовала для дискредитации президента. Я не думаю, чтобы армяне, очень четко и со знанием дела относящиеся к подобным ситуациям, могли позволить азербайджанцам получить изобличающие их в фашистских действиях документы. Можно предположить, что кто-то был заинтересован в том, чтобы потом показать эти кадры на сессии ВС и все сфокусировать на моей персоне.
Если я заявляю, что это вина азербайджанской оппозиции, могут сказать, что я на них наговариваю. Но общий фон рассуждений таков, что коридор, по которому люди могли уйти, армянами все-таки был оставлен. Зачем же им тогда стрелять? Тем более на территории, близкой к Агдаму, где к тому времени было достаточно сил, чтобы выйти и помочь людям. Или просто договориться, что мирные жители уходят. Такая практика была все время.
Мне все время говорили, что ходжалинцы держатся, что им нужно помочь оружием, людьми, продуктами. Я дал поручение сделать это вертолетами. Однако летчики, как мне объяснили, отказались туда лететь, поскольку у них нет специальных приборов, чтобы уходить от стингеров. Так прошла почти целая неделя. Там же поблизости располагалась агдамская группировка, которая обязана была все время следить за развитием события. Как только техника окружила Ходжалы, нужно было эвакуировать население. Еще раньше я такое поручение дал по Шуше: мужчин- оставить, а женщин и детей вывезти. Это тоже законы войны: их надо спасать. Мое поведение было объективным и однозначным: я такие поручения давал, но почему в Ходжалах их не выполнили, мне неясно. Я, кстати, несколько раз в этот период говорил с Мкртчяном, председателем ВС НКР: "Вы уложили тысячи людей. Дайте нам возможность вывезти их трупы". Но он ответил, что никаких трупов быть не должно, у них есть наши люди, которых кормят, хотя продовольствия не хватает, и готовы отпустить в обмен на своих заложников.
Вопрос — Когда вам сообщили об этих погибших?
Ответ— На следующий день после того, как передали, что в Ходжалах всего несколько погибших. Пришла информация министра внутренних дел.
Вопрос — Кто ответствен был за эту информацию?
Ответ— Сам министр. К тому времени была создана пресс-служба и в Министерстве обороны. После истории с вертолетом мы договорились, что никто не будет давать непроверенной информации.
Вопрос— Считаете ли вы ответственным и премьер-министра Гасана Гасанова?
Ответ— Глава правительства, конечно, отвечает за все, хотя он от этого открещивается, говоря, что не занимается подобными вопросами. Но правительство есть правительство. Ionidasz ( talk) 18:33, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
A correction, for a reason I switched them, I meant to say, the second phrase is suported not the first. Lets stick in quoting him. Ionidasz ( talk) 03:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Checking the scan several time, we need to ask the opinion of someone who write a lot about US politics and know what the document means.
Here we have a primary source which says on top Citation which was offered by Ellen Story which was read by a speaker of the house. It seems to be a speech not endorsed by anyone else than the person who offered it, which is Ellen Story. In this context what Grandmaster provided writen by her makes sense, which was: Unlike Congress, the MA state legislature does not typically print commemoratory documents or speeches in its journal. The record is the citation itself. Since it was not something to vote or debate and not on the agenda, there can be no trace of it in its journal. But, democratically, everything which is voted, there should be a track record of it in the journal.
In this context on February 25, 2010 the Massachusetts House of Representatives adopted a document is not accrtate since it was not adopted, since not voted and endorsed by the members. Statments, citations are made on daily basis but those are not adopted documents. So the primary source seems to contradict the Azeri sources claiming any adoption.
If what I wrote is accurate, this should be simply removed from the article, as it's far from being an international reaction. It's just a statment made by someone. Ionidasz ( talk) 00:24, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
OK, I have a proposal, it remains but with the following form.
On February 25, 2010, state representative Ellen Story offered a citation to the Massachusetts House of Representatives which in its name offers "its sincerest acknowledgment of the 18th commemoration of the Khojaly Massacre."
I personally believe the info is not notable, and if given such an undue weight, citations could rain on every claimed events so that it becomes worth inclusion. But if it's going to stop edit warring I'm ready to make a concession even if I personnally believe its addition is unencyclopedic and only lowers the quality of the article. Ionidasz ( talk) 00:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
BTW, of course the speaker signed it, he took act of the document. This is self-evident. Ionidasz ( talk) 05:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, I really have to go right now, but pick any neutral user who knows about US politics and you will see that he will basically endorse my description above. Ionidasz ( talk) 05:22, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Grandmaster, I don't know how it works in Azerbaijan, and contact Story you will understand, the speaker obviously signed the document. The speaker decides who speak, he endorsed the citation being read. Claiming that Story offered means she recieved the permission to read the document. Citations are being read on daily basis and the speaker sign since he took note, or took act. It's a none-issue really. I don't know Azerbaijan politic, but there must be someone obviously who moderate the chamber, house, etc. Claiming the speaker in this article is dumb, it's redondant, plus not everyone will understand what it means. And will give no info on the author of the citation, the person who offered it. Ionidasz ( talk) 15:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I won't repeat myself, I'll fill a request for third opinion when I have time. Ionidasz ( talk) 02:42, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Grandmaster, you are not really telling the truth! "According to Azerbaijani media, on February 25, 2010 the Massachusetts House of Representatives adopted a document, offering "its sincerest acknowledgment of the 18th commemoration of the Khojaly Massacre". First of all, telling that the HOUSE ADOPTED is false. Secondly, if not false (though it is), then it is an INTERPRETATION. And thirdly, Azeri news have spread the news as if it was a recognition by the house, and so are propaganda means (at least in this case) and cannot be cited. Aregakn ( talk) 21:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC) Why did suddenly everybody stop arguing? Usually things continued till an official dispute process. Aregakn ( talk) 10:38, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The below citations of Divot's communication with Ms. Story leaves no doubts that this is such an unnotable event for it to be mentioned in an encyclopedia, leave alone calling it anything connected to the House itself. But if there are still doubts by the advocators of the Azeri media, then the dispute resolution process is the only way to bring the truth to WP. Aregakn ( talk) 12:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I propose killing the title of this article as there is no evidence of role in the massacre as it implies. I, on the other hand, propose the content to be merged in the background section. This preceded most of the human tragedy even if there was human tragedy in Khojali itself too. Ionidasz ( talk) 01:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
See above, I did not dispute there was a tragedy inside Khojali itself. We'll discuss this on monday, I'll take a brake until then. Ionidasz ( talk) 04:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Due to a prolonged discussion of the subject document and the absense of secondary WP:RS to properly present the case, I request an edit adding
to the section "According to Azerbaijani media, on February 25, 2010 the Massachusetts House of Representatives adopted a document, offering "its sincerest acknowledgment of the 18th commemoration of the Khojaly Massacre"." As well as delete the 3 Azeri media reports (and news summary) as unreliable as per discussion according to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2 and Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Today.az_and_U.S._Azeris_Network discussion Aregakn ( talk) 22:37, 31 May 2010 (UTC) Aregakn ( talk) 22:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Letter 1
Story, Ellen - Rep. (HOU)
It is a commemoration of the events of that day on the occaison of the anniversary, and not a statement of policy or opinion.
- From: ***** [2]
- To: Story, Ellen - Rep. (HOU)
- Subject: Re: Khojaly Massacre
- Dear Helen Story
- Thanks for the quick response. And whose opinion reflects this document? I'm the editor "Khojaly massacre" articles in Wikipedia and I need to understand exactly how to describe this document
- Story, Ellen - Rep. (HOU) <Ellen.Story@state.ma.us>
- Dear Mr. *******,
- The document adopted is a citation, which is a standard document used to commemorate events or congratulate individual acheivement. They are not printed in the record of the House of Representatives, which is why it can't be found on the state website. It does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the entire membership of the House or of Massachusetts, but it is an official docment of commemoration of the event at Khojaly.
- Yours sincerely,
- Ellen Story
- State Representative
- From: ****** [3]
- To: Story, Ellen (HOU )
- Subject: Khojaly Massacre
- Dear Helen Story
- Last month in the Azerbaijani newspapers, a large number of messages that on February 25, 2010 the Massachusetts House of Representatives adopted a document, offering "its sincerest acknowledgement of the 18th commemoration of the Khojaly Massacre" (f.e. http://www.today.az/news/society/66724.html), includes links to the document ( http://www.usazeris.org/MA%20House%20of%20Rep%20citation%20of%20Khojaly%20Massacare.pdf). But at the site of Massachusetts I can not find anything like that. Could you explain what took Massachusetts House of Representatives?
- Best rgrds,
Letter 2
From: Story, Ellen - Rep. (HOU) <Ellen.Story@state.ma.us>
Date: Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: Controversial Citation about Khojaly Events
To: Z.
Dear Mr. Z.,
Thank you for your e-mail. The issuance of a citation is an action taken by an individual legislator or groups of legislators, normally for the purposes of congratulations or commemoration, and are submitted on behalf of the House. Citations do not confer stances on policy or opinion. The particular citation in question was requested by a constituent of mine for events commemorating the Khojaly Massacre on the occaision of its anniversary, which is what the document cites.
In direct answer to your questions:
1) No.
2) It expresses neither.
3) No.
4) No. It is not clear to me who you mean by "council" as there is no state governmental body which goes by that name. To my knowledge, there were no events in Massachusetts at all regarding this event, and there definitely were none in the State House.
Once again, thank you for writing.
Yours sincerely,
Ellen Story
________________________________ From: Z.
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:40 PM
To: Story, Ellen (HOU )
Subject: Controversial Citation about Khojaly Events
Dear Rep. Ellen Story,
I am a resident of Cambridge, MA, and I am writing in regards with a citation that House adopted on February 25th, 2010, commemorating Khojaly events. As you may know, this citation has created a lot of controversy and confusion in Republics of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh, as well as in the large Armenian community in Massachusetts. There is a lot of speculation in the media and a lot of contradictory information. I was hoping you could clarify what actually happened and what this citation actually implies. I would highly appreciate it, if your office could shed some light on this situation. My questions are as follows:
1. Do these kinds of citations require majority voting, or can they be proposed and signed/adopted by just an individual in the council (or by a limited number of representatives)?
2. If it is the latter, would it be safe to assume that the citation expresses views of individual(s) and not the whole MA House of Representatives?
3. Are there any legal implications of this citation? Does this mean that Massachusetts House of Representatives officially recognizes Khojaly events as a massacre? If yes, who are the sides that House considers as victims and perpetrators of Khojaly massacre?
4. Was there an official event organized in the House to commemorate the Khojaly events? If yes, was it organized and sponsored by the House or just by a member of council?
Again, I would highly appreciate it if you could clarify the situation. Detailed answers would provide a clear understanding, which, in turn, will help ease the tensions that this citation has created in the large Armenian population in Massachusetts and will stop speculations in the media.
Respectfully,
Z.
Divot ( talk) 19:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Hope both side agree's, as my edits are neutral and accurate and per policy. Ionidasz ( talk) 17:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I see no problem here. Grand master 04:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
If Eynulla Fatullayev denied saying that he thinks Azeri Army did it, then there is no need to publish that he said it, without any citation. This is just pure manipulation. Also it would be great if Armenians stopped publishing nonsense 'citation needed' at the end. I can say anything without any reference. And please don't use USSR Armenian Encyclopedia, or an Armenian ultra-nationalist newspaper that is read no one but some crazy dashnaksutyun members. Same goes with "quotations" from Ayaz Mutallibov.
The article as of now is one sided. Ionidasz ( talk) 16:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Content of the article should be disputed, as further investigation is required. Though I have no direct information about this "Khojalu Massacre", it wouldn't be hard to find local sources on the topic. Unlike our Azerbaijani colleagues, I would consider that kind of information politically as biased as the Azerbaijani side, and I'd prefer not to put biased information on Wikipedia. What I can tell for sure is what I witnessed myself - Azerbaijani citizens were indeed provided by means of immigration from Armenia during the war as the ethnic nature of the conflict threatened their safety as well as public order. Unlike their Armenian counterparts from Azerbaijan, who literally fled for their life, they were given time to move and fully compensated for their property. Also, after the city of Lachin capitulated to the Armenian armed forces, the population of the city was allowed to evacuate at their will, and no kind of violence was used against them. This is what I saw myself, and this isn't the behavior of a side, which organized "ethnic cleanings" and "massacres". Yes, I've witnessed cruelty on both sides - with Azerbaijani soldiers hermetically sealing Armenians inside steel barrels and leaving for the advancing Armenian forces to find - as well as Armenian soldiers, drawing crosses on their foreheads with dead Azerbaijani children's blood. Neither of this can be justified or presented as necessity, these were horrible deeds and a horrible war. And many crimes were committed, by people of both sides. And now standing and lying about what was and was nat, is a greater crime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.76.11.169 ( talk) 17:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
As mentioned in many of the edit histories, this article is a contentious one, and the current version has been agreed on over a period of time by Armenian, Azerbaijani and non-partisan editors. Any change made to this version should be agreed on the talk page by all sides before being implemented. - Francis Tyers · 17:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
This is what happened to the people who remained in Khojaly: [5] [6] They were cruelly killed by the Armenian forces. The pictures were taken by the Russian journalist who entered the town together with the Armenian soldiers. So there's no way for the Armenian side to deny the fact of brutal killing of innocent women and children by the Armenian armed forces. Grand master 08:42, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
It should also be discussed, if this kind of simple matters are worth mentioning in Wikipedia. Somebody in Uganda would announce something and we can include it too and it will start looking like an article of lots of unnotable events. Why would unnotable events start being put in WP? Aregakn ( talk) 10:57, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Are there any other letters than those that Divot presented? From those answers she had it seems not to be a house document. Emilio1974 ( talk) 18:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
1. ...can (these kinds of citations) be proposed and signed/adopted by just an individual in the council..?
1) No.
2. If it is the latter, would it be safe to assume that the citation expresses views of individual(s) and not the whole MA House of Representatives?
2) It expresses neither.
3. Are there any legal implications of this citation? Does this mean that Massachusetts House of Representatives officially recognizes Khojaly events as a massacre ?
3) No.
4. Was there an official event organized in the House to commemorate the Khojaly events?
4) No... To my knowledge, there were no events in Massachusetts at all regarding this event, and there definitely were none in the State House.
You are not quoting her, you are interpreting her and I showed it thrice. Time for other instances to be involved for the dispute, I guess. Of course, proven that it is not the duck or puppet of our "pro-Azeri group". Aregakn ( talk) 18:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
What is this voting for? You do not need to vote to follow WP:DR. I think you should go ahead and request WP:RFC. Grand master 05:23, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
I see it is more accurate to change the name of the article to "Khojaly Events" because of the highly disputed and contradicted sources provided in the article such as the Azerbaijani president's interview given to the Czech journalist Jana Mazalova, published in the 2 April 1992 issue of Nizavisimaya Gazeta, Moscow. His statements during the interview could destruct all the Azerbaijani allegations about a "massacre". Kevorkmail ( talk) 05:42, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
A case disputed by one journalist who clearly has an agenda is anything but "highly-disputed." Mutallibov has refuted those claims, and all international human rights organisations have described the event as an Armenian-committed massacre against civilian Azerbaijani population. What you have got there is not enough to rename the article. There is a lot more controversy surrounding this article, and a lot more sources that disagree with its name, yet I doubt that you will be happy with renaming it "1915 events." Parishan ( talk) 17:54, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Kevorkmail, Eynulla Fatullayev is not an expert on the facts of Khojaly massacre, neither did EHCR establish him as one. You are welcome to incorporate his claims and EHCR stuff on the Wiki page on Fatullayev. Atabəy ( talk) 23:31, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Controversial official statements which confronts the pro-Azerbaijani statemnts are constantly being removed without justifications. Salah Mar1978 ( talk) 11:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:KhojalyMassacre.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 03:29, 9 December 2011 (UTC) |
There are no any information about it at Pakistani Senate "Orders of the Day". 77th Session's links: 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 24, ets. There are no any information about Khojaly. Please, looking for a more reliable source. Divot ( talk) 21:13, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
If it is true, then it necessarily must be published in the first class news agency. BBC Azeri to help you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Amen! Divot ( talk) 00:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Here is mexican sources about recognition http://www.diputados.gob.mx/servicios/datorele/LXI_LEG/1_POS_IIIANO/08-dic-11/8e.htm
as well as Mexican Senate's Foreign Relation Committee's resolution, which mentions the Khojaly massacre http://www.senado.gob.mx/index.php?ver=sp&mn=2&sm=2&id=11745&lg=61
-- NovaSkola ( talk) 04:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Please, don't adding disputed information. Discuss proposed changes on the talk page, cite your sources, and work to build a consensus. If you don't understand spanish, ask someone, who know. If you want know who am I, you can ask Grandmaster, or see Russian Wikipedia. or ask checkusers, of course. Divot ( talk) 09:58, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
BTW. The Nation: "The Foreign Relations Committee of Senate has condemned...". Where do you see "Senate of Pakistan has recognized events in 1992 as genocide"? Divot ( talk) 10:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
[11], [12], [13] Just a few sources to include mentioned information, and for my Armenian friends: instead of trying to refute each citation please try to find better sources to contribute Wikipedia.Tanks.-- Abbatai 20:05, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Viernes, 04 de Noviembre de 2011. Primer Periodo Ordinario. No. Gaceta: 302
SEGUNDO.- Recuerda que a mбs de 19 aсos de la masacre de Jodyalн, la justicia no ha llegado a las vнctimas, por lo que manifiesta que un elemento central para cualquier acuerdo de paz deberнa ser el poner en marcha a la brevedad, medidas que contribuyan a sanar los vнnculos entre los pueblos y a reconstruir tan pronto como sea posible la armonнa entre ambas sociedades.
Nothing about "passed a decision consisting of articles of agreement on Armenian-Azerbaijani, Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and called as genocide by international human rights organizations". Azerbaijani media again lying. Divot ( talk) 10:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
It's not the Senate, its the Foreign relations committee and there is no mention of any genocides. -- George Spurlin ( talk) 06:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
DE LA COMISIÓN DE RELACIONES EXTERIORES, CON PUNTOS DE ACUERDO SOBRE EL CONFLICTO ARMENIAAZERBAIYÁN RESPECTO A NAGORNO KARABAJ != Senate of Mexico passed a decision. Please learn the Spanish language. Divot ( talk) 09:56, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm a well known sockuppet? Where did you hear that? I don't recall ever talking to you before? -- George Spurlin ( talk) 23:47, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
There is no any information about it at Embassy of Azerbaijan in Mexico. Last news - "El Presidente de Azerbaiyán, recibe al secretario de Marina de EE.UU." 21.11.2011. Divot ( talk) 02:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
I can't find a single Dutch source mentioning the "Million signatures" in 2011. How is it possible that 6% of the entire population of a country signs a petition, but no news-agency writes about it? Very suspicious. -- va c io 15:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
"In February 2012, Bosnian city Sarajevo unveiled memorial to the victims" - Where is it unveiled? Maybe in the territory of the Azerbaijani embassy. Divot ( talk) 21:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Please stop misinterpreting the words of Fataliyev. He says nothing close to what is ascribed to him. Grand master 22:33, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
The text below is translated inaccurately and is being misinterpreted.
Həmin iclasda qərara gəldilər ki, əgər Xocalıdan camaat çıxarılsa, ermənilər bunu oraya girmək üçün əsas kimi qəbul edəcəklər. Yəni biz özümüz onları Xocalıya girməyə təhrik etmiş olacağıq. Hətta Təhlükəsizlik Şurasının üzvləri də inanmırdılar ki, ermənilər sonradan genosidə çevrilən belə bir işə gedərlər. Onlar düşünürdülər ki, xalq ordan getsə Xocalını özümüz təslim etmiş olacağıq. Bu siyasi uzaqgörənliyin olmaması, situasiyanı bilməmək Xocalı hadisəsinə gətirib çıxırdı ki, mənim də tribunadan dediyim bu idi.
He said that some people at the meeting objected the evacuation, because if the population left the town, it would be an invitation for Armenians to attack it, and at that time members of security council did not believe that Armenians could commit the genocide. As you can see, he does not say that Armenians did not or could not commit genocide, he only said that no one expected that they would, but they were wrong. Grand master 23:30, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Also, www.panorama.am is not a neutral source. It cannot be used as a reference. Grand master 23:32, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
http://eucfa.eu/index.php/konflikt-um-artsakh-berg-karabach-konflikt is an Armenian propaganda source. Not third party, cannot be used. Grand master 23:37, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Also, how many times can the article mention this Eynulla Fatullayev guy? He was only 16 when the massacre took place, he was not there at the time. He wrote a few stupid articles, but he cannot be considered as reliable as HRW or Memorial, who were there after the massacre. Grand master 23:43, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
I checked Fatullayev's statement to the European Court of Human Rights, and he says that he never accused the Azerbaijani side of having anything to do with the massacre, he says that he was only quoting what Armenians told him. So I see no reason for extensive quoting of this guy, he does not support what Armenian media ascribes to him. Grand master 00:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Please explain who "European Center for Artsakh e.V" are. Why should they be considered reliable? Who are they anyway? Grand master 01:23, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I could not find anywhere in Memorial's report this section:
It is a fact that an organized evacuation of Khojaly's people was not carried out. It was not carried out, although the authorities of Khojaly, the High Command and the administration of the Azerbaijani fighters were informed and knew about the humanitarian corridor which was established for this purpose.
The report only says:
С осени 1991 г. Ходжалы был практически блокирован армянскими вооруженными формированиями, а после вывода внутренних войск из Нагорного Карабаха установилась полная блокада. С января 1992 г. в Ходжалы не подавалась электроэнергия. Часть жителей покинула блокированный город, однако полной эвакуации мирного населения, несмотря на настойчивые просьбы главы исполнительной власти Ходжалы Э.Мамедова, организовано не было.
From fall 1991 Khojaly was practically blockaded by the Armenian armed forces, and after the withdrawal of the (Soviet) internal troops from Karabakh the blockade became total. No electricity has been supplied since January 1992. Some inhabitants left the blockaded town, but the full evacuation of the civilian population was not carried out, despite insistent demands of the head of executive power of Khojaly E.Mamedov.
Therefore the quoting should be accurate. Also, what is the point in flooding the article with quotes about the lack of evacuation? The reader will get the point from a single line of Memorial report. There's no excuse for inserting repetitive quotes saying the same thing. The failure to evacuate is still not a justification for the mass killing of civilians. I would like to invite everyone to discuss here before making controversial edits. Grand master 14:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Is this a bad joke?! Where is the difference between trend.az, news.az, today.az (all Azerbaijani News sites) and panorama.am (Armenian News site)??
This is called having double standards - Unacceptable! --
Aghetrichter (
talk)
16:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
This article is absolutely infected by a double moral standard! It is really hard to write anything which presents the Armenian point of view as the two Users of obviously Azerbaijani origin "Grandmaster" and "Angel670" are deleting everything or shorten it extremely.
There are a couple of Azerbaijani statements in the article which are based only on Azerbaijani (=partisan) sources but they are just marked with "Third-party source needed" and that's it... where as statements presented for the Armenian point of view, sourced with russian, armenian AND non-partisan sources are deleted completely! -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:20, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I would not call it "marginal point of views" what for example the Azerbaijani president, Arif Yunusov (Azerbaijani civil rights activist), Jagub Mamedov (interim president of Azerbaijan) or Chingiz Mustafayev (Azerbaijani Photographer, Print reporter) said about Khojaly, namely that the Azerbaijani authorities have to be blamed for what has happened. If there are so many high ranking Azerbaijani voices saying the opposite of what the official Azerbaijani version is, that is not a "marginal point of view" at all, because these Azerbaijani statements challenge the official Azerbaijani point of view! Also Human Rights Watch (in your words, the "most reliable source") said that both sides commited atrocities. However, even this part has completely been deleted and can be found nowhere in the article. – Again a proof of double standards-- Aghetrichter ( talk) 01:04, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I advise you the last time to refrain from accusations. If you are unable to participate in this article as an Azerbaijani person in an objective way, please leave this topic and let people do their work! Calling every Armenian source "propaganda" is also just proving who you really are and that you should absolutely not participate on this topic. You again proved what was alreay clear by watching your behaviour, that you mainly want this article to present the Azerbaijani version! This is more than clear! Then change the name of the article to "Azerbaijanis version of the Khojaly massacre".
I will not accept this way of working and will crack down on this,-- Aghetrichter ( talk) 14:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The article says "Mutalibov stated that the event could be a ploy by opposition to denigrate his government." where as the source says "he declared that the massacre at Khodjaly was "organized" by his political opponents to force his resignation."
This is a huge difference. This again just proves that everything concerning the Armenian point of view is extremely downplayed in this entire article. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The overwhelming evidence of what happened has not stopped some Armenians, in distasteful fashion, trying to muddy the waters. The then Azerbaijani president Ayaz Mutalibov made a bitter remark accusing his political opponents of involvement in the killings, which he later disavowed. But that has not stopped his quotation being endlessly cited in Armenia. More disturbing is the evidence of the Czech journalist Dana Mazalova, whom I met briefly last year in Armenia and have since corresponded with. Mazalova saw the original footage shot by the Azerbaijani cameraman Chingiz Mustafiev of the dead bodies and says that she did not see there the signs of mutilation that were in later footage. That has the grisly implication that someone interfered with the corpses afterwards.
- But if you want corroborating sources that Azerbaijani civilians were killed by Armenians how about the most famous Armenian warrior of the Karabakh war and the current Armenian president? According to the memoir of his brother, Californian-born Armenian nationalist commander Monte Melkonian, was on the scene shortly afterwards and was disgusted by what he saw, blaming the killings on the “indiscipline” of two fanatical paramilitary units named Arabo and Aramo. And Serzh Sarkisian, now president of Armenia, confirmed to me in an interview in December 2000 that Armenian armed men had indeed killed Azerbaijani civilians.
de Waal is not used as a source in the sentence I am refering to. The sentence in the article is "In one of his interviews Mutalibov stated that the event could be a ploy by opposition to denigrate his government." This sentence is sourced to Caroline Cox. Carolin Cox's original sentence which is used in a false way in the article is: "...he declared that the massacre at Khodjaly was "organized" by his political opponents to force his resignation. " - The article says it could be to designate his government, where as the source says that it actually was to force his resignation. These are two different things!
What is done here is again downplaying the (pro-Armenian) content of what Mutalibov first said. What Mutalibov afterwards said, what you explained, has nothing to do with this sentence right now, because this sentence allegedly presents what he first said. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 04:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
You are absolutaley unsuitable and bigoted due to your Azerbaijani origin. This is obvious! You are very wrong with your accusation and I advise you to refrain from such accusations. Why you stick to the word "denigrate"? The main phrase is "could be", what he allegedly said. But what he really said is it "was". This is downplaying and I except it to be changed to the truth. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 14:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I am not threatening anybody. I am just reacting to your accusations and asked you to stop this. Furthermore I am not attacking you, I just stated that your answers and your acts of deleting make the impression as if you want this article to be "pro-Azerbaijani" and not objective. Please modify the sentences in the right way. Thanks. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:00, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I repeat:
"The section "Manipulated evidence" has almost completely been deleted with inexplicable reasons. The User "Grandmaster" (by the way: This user page has been vandalized 23 times) is almost deleting everything which is not "pro-Azerbaijani" and against his view, probably because of his own Azerbaijani backgroud which I found unsustainable! The reasons for deleting almost the entire section "manipulated evidence" was "neutral tone, rm unsourced chunks, speculation and partisan referencing, please discuss before further additions". Please explain me what exactly you mean with "unsourced chunks"? Every "chunk" in my text ends with sources! Altogether there are 10 different sources mentioned. And just to get this clear… Azerbaijani news-sites or obviously dubious sources like "www.hocalisoykirimi.com" are accepted and ok but sources like... - an original video interview of the person one is citing - Armenian news-sites - Russian news-websites (third-party-source) - the report "Ethnic Cleansing in Progress" (third-party-source) - "The European Center for Artakh" (a registered association from Germany) ... which are all sources I have used for "manipulated evidence" are considered to be "speculation and partisan referencing"?! If an original video interview is used to depict something, this is called "speculation"?! How can something be speculation if the fact can be heard in a video? As long as Azerbaijani sources are considered to be neutral and non-partisan I don't want my detailed sourced(!) texts to be deleted completey just because it does not fit to someones point of view." --Aghetrichter (talk) 02:15, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
As for your sources, as Brandmeister said, they are all partisan, including The European Center for Artakh, which is run by the Armenian diaspora. The official page of the website speaks for itself. Please use third party sources only. And hocalisoykirimi has not been used in the article. Grandmaster 07:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The history shows clearly that everything which is not pro-Azerbaijani is being deleted completey or shortened extremely by Grandmaster who comes from Azerbaijan. It seems as if he is not objective in this case.
I extensively explained that a lot of Azerbaijani sources, like news websites or the dubious website " http://www.hocalisoykirimi.com" have been used (Grandmaster is false, see Source #10) and obviously accepted in the article "Khojaly Massacre". I am really asking myself why Armenian News websites, Russian News websites, "pro-Armenian"-third-party-sources on the other hand are considered to be "partisan" but Azerbaijani sources are not?! This is absurd!
Moreover the structure which you have used for this Article is absolutely inappropriate for this issue and is the main problem for all this disscussions and problems. In the case of the "Khojaly massacre" there is actualy clearly an "Azerbaijani point of view" (where Azerbaijani sources should be accepted), an "Armenian point of view" (where Armenian sources should be accepted) and an "International point of view". And all three different evaluations have to be presented in a seperate own topic for a better comprehension (which should be the intention of Wikipedia), all other structure in this case leads to deleting statements and extremly shortening because something does not fit to ones point of view (like in the case of Azerbaijani Grandmaster).-- Aghetrichter ( talk) 16:37, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The sources you list like Armenian online news, including the Armenian diaspora page registered in Germany or Russia, are in fact non-neutral and partisan. You can not use everything you find on the web to modify the article and push aggressively your personal point of view. Angel670 talk 17:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
(I again bring up this question, as it seems that non of you (probably Azerbaijani or turkish Admins) is able to answer it) Where is the difference between trend.az, news.az, today.az (all Azerbaijani News sites) and for example panorama.am (Armenian News site)?? This is called having double standards - Unacceptable! I am not pushing my point of view. I am just presenting the Armenian point of view. Seems as if some of you all are extremely bigoted -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 23:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Your way of answering and the choice of your words (calling everything "pro-Armenian" a "conspiracy theory") just prove that you are bigoted because of your obviously Azerbaijani origin. The Armenian version is absolutely not featured very prominently. And the few facts which are presented are attached with adjectives, which imply the Armenian version to be untrue. -- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:03, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Thomas De Waal confirms what aghetricher says. http://carnegie.ru/publications/?fa=42579
More disturbing is the evidence of the Czech journalist Dana Mazalova, whom I met briefly last year in Armenia and have since corresponded with. Mazalova saw the original footage shot by the Azerbaijani cameraman Chingiz Mustafiev of the dead bodies and says that she did not see there the signs of mutilation that were in later footage. That has the grisly implication that someone interfered with the corpses afterwards.
This claims are not coming from Armenian news it is the Czech journalist heavily worked during the Nagorno-Karabakh war. There is a good 3rd party source so aghet has the right to put up this section Ali55te ( talk) 23:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The overwhelming evidence of what happened has not stopped some Armenians, in distasteful fashion, trying to muddy the waters. The then Azerbaijani president Ayaz Mutalibov made a bitter remark accusing his political opponents of involvement in the killings, which he later disavowed. But that has not stopped his quotation being endlessly cited in Armenia.
I think de Waal's opinion about the attempt to muddy the waters should be quoted separately, in a different passage. As for Mustafayev, the circumstances of his death are well known. According to his brother Vahid Mustafayev, he was fatally wounded when a shell exploded right beside him and a splinter from the shell severed one of his major arteries. By the time Chingiz was delivered to the hospital, he died of blood loss. [15] There's no reliable evidence to connect his death with events in Khojaly. Grand master 23:53, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Mazalova is also mentioned in the article. What is the problem? Even de Waal says that overwhelming evidence proves the guilt of Armenian side, and the attempts to muddy the waters are distasteful. We should give prominence to prevailing view, in accordance with the rules. Minority view cannot be given equal weight in accordance with WP:Weight. I understand that many in Armenia can believe that Azerbaijanis killed themselves to depose their president, but that's not what the international community thinks. The reports of Memorial and HRW are the most reliable sources, since those organizations are not connected neither to Azerbaijan nor Armenia. One interesting thing about the Armenian propagandist websites is that they keep denying the massacre even after their president Sargsyan admitted that the Armenian side committed it to intimidate Aerbaijanis. This means that they accuse their president of lying. Quite strange. Grand master 00:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Check your facts: Wikipedia says: "In some cases, video clips published on YouTube may be acceptable as primary sources if their authenticity can be confirmed" This is the case with the CNN-Video on Youtube about Mustafaev and the Novosti-Video of Dana Mazalovas Press conference where she describes, that the corpes have been multilated afterwards-- Aghetrichter ( talk) 00:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Grandmaster can you please copy paste exactly the paragraph where it says Arabo and Aramo stabbed death civillians in Khojaly massacare ? Because I am having hard time to find this information. Ali55te ( talk) 01:08, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Here:
At about 11:00 p.m. the night before, some 2,000 Armenian fighters had advanced through the high grass on three sides of Knojalu, forcing the residents out through the open side to the east. By the morning of February 26, the refugees had made it to the eastern cusp of Mountainous Karabagh and had begun working their way downhill, toward safety in the Azeri city of Agdam, about six miles away. There, in the hillocks and within sight of safety, Mountainous Karabagh soldiers had chased them down. "They just shot and shot and shot," a refugee woman, Raisha Aslanova, testified to a Human Rights Watch investigator. The Arabo fighters had then unsheathed the knives they had carried on their hips for so long, and began stabbing.
Grand master 01:11, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Also de Waal writes:
According to the memoir of his brother, Californian-born Armenian nationalist commander Monte Melkonian, was on the scene shortly afterwards and was disgusted by what he saw, blaming the killings on the “indiscipline” of two fanatical paramilitary units named Arabo and Aramo.
Grand master 01:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)