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User:Das Baz added:
More a propos, the root yerusha (inheritance) in Yerushalayim and the root hieros (holy, sacred) in Hierosolyma are definitely not related, and yet no one doubts or denies that Yerushalayim and Hierosolyma are the same city.
Thanks for your editing Das Baz, but the latter point is already addressed (I removed the Red Sea reference), and the article already states that some believe there is a linguistic connection. I'm not sure if there is a way to include this specific point of etymology without elaborating every point and counter-point of the argument. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 17:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Some other points that have been removed from the main page but belong here on the discussion page include the following:
"Local traditions support this interpretation: the inhabitants of Khirbet Beit Lei maintain that their village was in ancient times the home of a prophet and judge named Lei, who eventually left the village and disappeared into Saudi Arabia."
"There are other criticisms as well, notably that 'the people who now inhabit the area are not connected in any way with the people who lived near Lehi in his day. This means that the story would not have been transmitted from the Israelites to the current inhabitants.' This criticism, however, is totally fallacious and not based on any scientific evidence. Quite on the contrary: 'In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that - at least paternally - the various Jewish ethnic divisions and Palestinians ... are genetically closer to each other than either is to the Arabs (of Arabia) or to non-Jewish Europeans...' (Quote from the Wikipedia article on Palestinian people, section on 'The Ancestry of Palestinians.' See also the five External Links provided.) Very far from being 'not connected in any way,' the people of rural Palestine, including the inhabitants of Khirbet Beit Lei, are very close genetically to Israelites."
Overall, I'm very happy with the civilized and constructive way this discussion is progressing. We are all learning something here. Das Baz, 25 May 2006, 10:39 AM.
Thanks for the tip on the signature. The DNA connection is very relevant, since the claim was made that Palestinians were "not connected in any way" to ancient Israelites, while in fact all the genetic studies show a very strong connection. Modern Israelis are closer kin to Palestinians than to Gentile Europeans. Palestinians are more closely related to Israelis than to Saudis. Das Baz 15:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Wow, it works. Thanks, Tewfik! Ya Rais! Das Baz 15:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC) On maps of the West Bank, Khirbet Beit Lei is marked as an inhabited village, not just as an archaeological site. Das Baz 15:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, it would be a good idea to include some maps in this article and establish exactly where Khirbet Beit Lei and Beit Lei are located. I have heard from a very reliable and trustworthy source (whom I am trying to get involved in the discussion) that Beit Lei was certainly an inhabited village in the early 70's. I think maybe the village is Beit Lei, the archaeological site is Khirbet Beit Lei. Please check up on this on your map. Thank you very much. Das Baz 17:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi Das Baz, The Jerusalem artichoke article attributes the Jerusalem/Girasole connection to folk etymology. While I'd be willing to post that if you like, you should understand that it would only undermine the pro-"connection" point of view. Jerusalem's Hebrew and Greek names aren't linked because they sound alike, but rather because each is identified with the same place. That they sound similar is a coincidence, but it isn't logical to induce that the Greek referred to Jerusalem just based on the verbal similarity. I'm committed to presenting the most NPOV article we can, so if you discover a different way to get your point across without having the article devolve into two lists of competing arguments, I would be more than glad to help. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 02:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Right now, I think the most important thing is to gather all the facts. Is there any way you can download some good detailed maps of the area into this article? Thanks. Das Baz 16:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the Greek and Hebrew names for Jerusalem arose quite independently of each other, and their similarity is pure coincidence. Far more likely, the Greeks named the city with a name that sounded like the Hebrew name, and was chosen accordingly, even if the meaning of the roots was totally unrelated. A similar thing may have happened with Beit Lehi and Beit Lei. Das Baz 16:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think that the Yerushalayim-Hierosolyma connection should be filed not under "original research" but under "Common Sense" and "Common Knowledge" - or is common sense also banned from Wikipedia? Das Baz 15:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad to hear that the Tree of Lei and its protective wall exist after all. And here's some more common sense: If they exist, then there must be people living nearby to keep the tree alive and the wall in good repair. I have no objection to including a map in Hebrew in this article. Why not? Das Baz 15:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey Tewfik, thank you. For now, I shall not be adding any more arguments until I have some solid facts to put in, as I believe facts are far more important than theories in these cases. Das Baz 15:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC) Well, I found a few more facts - in the article "Lessons from the Lehi Cave," by William Johnson, Sunstone July 1985, in a link you, Tewfik, provided. Johnson is skeptical of LDS claims about the Cave, but he does point out that local Bedouin - from at least two different villages - have traditions of an ancient prophet, Lei, who is connected to that tree and wall. Das Baz 23:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Das Baz, here's the passage in question:
I should point out that Berret found the Bedouin's story "only partially consistent" with what Ginat claimed he said. Ginat claimed he was told two things: the name (Khirbet Beit Lei), and the reason for the name (because an ancient prophet named Lei lived there). Hence the old man from another village didn't tell the story Ginat told, but essentially the same story as the Bedouin, that is the story that was "only partially consistent" with what Ginat claimed, whatever the differences may be.
On to the edits. I merged the Bedouin statements into the claim and counter claim sections, and removed the s from the section heading since there is one connection debated - I did this as a matter of grammar and not content. I reinserted the ship claim according to the Sunstone article which argues that Nephi is only told about the ships once they reach Bountiful (1 Ne. 17:8 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall shew thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters.). I appreciate that you invested the time to research sources, and that you used an NPOV phrasing of the claim. Keep up the good work, Tewfik Talk 05:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
It is true that Nephi is only commanded to build a ship after reaching Bountiful, but he knew his descendants would be living on the other side of "many waters" before he had left the vicinity of Jerusalem. See I Nephi 13. As an intelligent man with common sense, surely he would have realized he needed to build a ship to cross the many waters even before he was implicitly commanded to do so. Das Baz 17:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Das Baz,
You added Relevant Book of Mormon passages: I Nephi, chapters 3 through 13, in particular 3:25-27, 13:10-13. to the end of the article, however the many waters section is only relevant if we can find a source that argues it says what you say it does. Otherwise the casual reader will have no clue what it's referring to. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 18:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Das Baz,
If that's a quote from a reputable source then we should include that POV in the article. We need a URL or ISBN and page number so that others can access the quote on their own though. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, here it is: Book of Mormon, ISBN 1592975003 (hardcover), ISBN 1592975011 (softcover) Das Baz 15:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me it's just plain common sense. It seems to me strange to say the least that a wrongheaded argument can be included if it was printed somewhere, but plain common sense cannot unless somebody pointed it out in print. Das Baz 15:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Clearly, more interviews and more research of local Bedouin traditions are needed. [1].
Hi, Tewfik. Distances and borders are not insurmountable impediments to the Bedouin. I read in the newspaper that Sinai Bedouin have been smuggling Darfuri refugees from Egypt to Israel across the Sinai Desert - moving a lot faster than Moses did. Das Baz 15:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I replaced some Hebrew sources by English ones. A note and a question:
Zero talk 03:17, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
"The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations" also has an English edition that should be used in preference. Zero talk 03:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I wonder if there is an pre-Mormon source for the name Lehi or its Hebrew version לחי. I can't find any. The name used by the Survey of Western Palestine, based on the Arabic, was Leyi. The name on topographic maps of the British Mandate is Lei. Naveh called it Lei in English and ליי in Hebrew. The modern Israeli name is Loya (לויה). So where does Lehi come from? I think it is a myth and will remove it unless someone comes up with a solid non-Morman source. Mind you, I wouldn't object to a very brief section that describes the significance that some Mormon writers ascribe to this site, but it has to be separated from the scientific content. Zero talk 04:04, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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User:Das Baz added:
More a propos, the root yerusha (inheritance) in Yerushalayim and the root hieros (holy, sacred) in Hierosolyma are definitely not related, and yet no one doubts or denies that Yerushalayim and Hierosolyma are the same city.
Thanks for your editing Das Baz, but the latter point is already addressed (I removed the Red Sea reference), and the article already states that some believe there is a linguistic connection. I'm not sure if there is a way to include this specific point of etymology without elaborating every point and counter-point of the argument. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 17:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Some other points that have been removed from the main page but belong here on the discussion page include the following:
"Local traditions support this interpretation: the inhabitants of Khirbet Beit Lei maintain that their village was in ancient times the home of a prophet and judge named Lei, who eventually left the village and disappeared into Saudi Arabia."
"There are other criticisms as well, notably that 'the people who now inhabit the area are not connected in any way with the people who lived near Lehi in his day. This means that the story would not have been transmitted from the Israelites to the current inhabitants.' This criticism, however, is totally fallacious and not based on any scientific evidence. Quite on the contrary: 'In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that - at least paternally - the various Jewish ethnic divisions and Palestinians ... are genetically closer to each other than either is to the Arabs (of Arabia) or to non-Jewish Europeans...' (Quote from the Wikipedia article on Palestinian people, section on 'The Ancestry of Palestinians.' See also the five External Links provided.) Very far from being 'not connected in any way,' the people of rural Palestine, including the inhabitants of Khirbet Beit Lei, are very close genetically to Israelites."
Overall, I'm very happy with the civilized and constructive way this discussion is progressing. We are all learning something here. Das Baz, 25 May 2006, 10:39 AM.
Thanks for the tip on the signature. The DNA connection is very relevant, since the claim was made that Palestinians were "not connected in any way" to ancient Israelites, while in fact all the genetic studies show a very strong connection. Modern Israelis are closer kin to Palestinians than to Gentile Europeans. Palestinians are more closely related to Israelis than to Saudis. Das Baz 15:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Wow, it works. Thanks, Tewfik! Ya Rais! Das Baz 15:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC) On maps of the West Bank, Khirbet Beit Lei is marked as an inhabited village, not just as an archaeological site. Das Baz 15:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, it would be a good idea to include some maps in this article and establish exactly where Khirbet Beit Lei and Beit Lei are located. I have heard from a very reliable and trustworthy source (whom I am trying to get involved in the discussion) that Beit Lei was certainly an inhabited village in the early 70's. I think maybe the village is Beit Lei, the archaeological site is Khirbet Beit Lei. Please check up on this on your map. Thank you very much. Das Baz 17:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi Das Baz, The Jerusalem artichoke article attributes the Jerusalem/Girasole connection to folk etymology. While I'd be willing to post that if you like, you should understand that it would only undermine the pro-"connection" point of view. Jerusalem's Hebrew and Greek names aren't linked because they sound alike, but rather because each is identified with the same place. That they sound similar is a coincidence, but it isn't logical to induce that the Greek referred to Jerusalem just based on the verbal similarity. I'm committed to presenting the most NPOV article we can, so if you discover a different way to get your point across without having the article devolve into two lists of competing arguments, I would be more than glad to help. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 02:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Right now, I think the most important thing is to gather all the facts. Is there any way you can download some good detailed maps of the area into this article? Thanks. Das Baz 16:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the Greek and Hebrew names for Jerusalem arose quite independently of each other, and their similarity is pure coincidence. Far more likely, the Greeks named the city with a name that sounded like the Hebrew name, and was chosen accordingly, even if the meaning of the roots was totally unrelated. A similar thing may have happened with Beit Lehi and Beit Lei. Das Baz 16:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think that the Yerushalayim-Hierosolyma connection should be filed not under "original research" but under "Common Sense" and "Common Knowledge" - or is common sense also banned from Wikipedia? Das Baz 15:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad to hear that the Tree of Lei and its protective wall exist after all. And here's some more common sense: If they exist, then there must be people living nearby to keep the tree alive and the wall in good repair. I have no objection to including a map in Hebrew in this article. Why not? Das Baz 15:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey Tewfik, thank you. For now, I shall not be adding any more arguments until I have some solid facts to put in, as I believe facts are far more important than theories in these cases. Das Baz 15:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC) Well, I found a few more facts - in the article "Lessons from the Lehi Cave," by William Johnson, Sunstone July 1985, in a link you, Tewfik, provided. Johnson is skeptical of LDS claims about the Cave, but he does point out that local Bedouin - from at least two different villages - have traditions of an ancient prophet, Lei, who is connected to that tree and wall. Das Baz 23:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Das Baz, here's the passage in question:
I should point out that Berret found the Bedouin's story "only partially consistent" with what Ginat claimed he said. Ginat claimed he was told two things: the name (Khirbet Beit Lei), and the reason for the name (because an ancient prophet named Lei lived there). Hence the old man from another village didn't tell the story Ginat told, but essentially the same story as the Bedouin, that is the story that was "only partially consistent" with what Ginat claimed, whatever the differences may be.
On to the edits. I merged the Bedouin statements into the claim and counter claim sections, and removed the s from the section heading since there is one connection debated - I did this as a matter of grammar and not content. I reinserted the ship claim according to the Sunstone article which argues that Nephi is only told about the ships once they reach Bountiful (1 Ne. 17:8 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall shew thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters.). I appreciate that you invested the time to research sources, and that you used an NPOV phrasing of the claim. Keep up the good work, Tewfik Talk 05:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
It is true that Nephi is only commanded to build a ship after reaching Bountiful, but he knew his descendants would be living on the other side of "many waters" before he had left the vicinity of Jerusalem. See I Nephi 13. As an intelligent man with common sense, surely he would have realized he needed to build a ship to cross the many waters even before he was implicitly commanded to do so. Das Baz 17:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Das Baz,
You added Relevant Book of Mormon passages: I Nephi, chapters 3 through 13, in particular 3:25-27, 13:10-13. to the end of the article, however the many waters section is only relevant if we can find a source that argues it says what you say it does. Otherwise the casual reader will have no clue what it's referring to. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 18:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Das Baz,
If that's a quote from a reputable source then we should include that POV in the article. We need a URL or ISBN and page number so that others can access the quote on their own though. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 04:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, here it is: Book of Mormon, ISBN 1592975003 (hardcover), ISBN 1592975011 (softcover) Das Baz 15:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me it's just plain common sense. It seems to me strange to say the least that a wrongheaded argument can be included if it was printed somewhere, but plain common sense cannot unless somebody pointed it out in print. Das Baz 15:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Clearly, more interviews and more research of local Bedouin traditions are needed. [1].
Hi, Tewfik. Distances and borders are not insurmountable impediments to the Bedouin. I read in the newspaper that Sinai Bedouin have been smuggling Darfuri refugees from Egypt to Israel across the Sinai Desert - moving a lot faster than Moses did. Das Baz 15:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I replaced some Hebrew sources by English ones. A note and a question:
Zero talk 03:17, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
"The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations" also has an English edition that should be used in preference. Zero talk 03:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I wonder if there is an pre-Mormon source for the name Lehi or its Hebrew version לחי. I can't find any. The name used by the Survey of Western Palestine, based on the Arabic, was Leyi. The name on topographic maps of the British Mandate is Lei. Naveh called it Lei in English and ליי in Hebrew. The modern Israeli name is Loya (לויה). So where does Lehi come from? I think it is a myth and will remove it unless someone comes up with a solid non-Morman source. Mind you, I wouldn't object to a very brief section that describes the significance that some Mormon writers ascribe to this site, but it has to be separated from the scientific content. Zero talk 04:04, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:21, 30 December 2017 (UTC)