Shikh Khazal AL-Kabi was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 February 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Khazʽal Ibn Jabir. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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The article was previously both inaccurate and extremely Persian nationalist in tone. I have tried to remove the inaccuracies and tone down the article. I am basing my rewrite on Ansari, which is based on several years of research in British and Iranian archives. Please note that this version acknowledges the ambiguity of the situation in Khuzestan in the early 20th century -- not really independent but not really under Qajar control either.
This article should be moved to Khaz'al Khan, leaving a redirect at Sheikh Khazal. The title is not part of the man's name. Zora 07:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually the page has inaccurate info. Im still contemplating whether to put an accuracy tag up or rewrite it.-- Zereshk 04:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
It's off-putting to cite books and add links that 99% of the readers of the encyclopedia can't read or use. It's also pushing it to use materials that other, non-Farsi speaking, editors can't read or properly assess. There IS a problem, in that the only reliable English sources I can find are unpublished dissertations. You can't check my sources and I can't check yours. However, you guys can at least order and read the dissertation too (it's not out of print!). Zora 08:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I checked with Village Pump (policy) and the folks there said that it was perfectly OK to use QUOTES from references in foreign languages so long as we had both quote and translation, so that the translation was checkable by someone other than the person who made it. So I've been lax in not quoting from Ansari, and need to add quotes and page references. You guys, if you're going to use Farsi refs, are going to have to support your statements with specific quotes in two languages. I assume that you'll be able to do that. Zora 04:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
SC, you've restored a claim that the Sheikhs of Mohammerah were part of the Bani Kaab tribe. According to Ansari, this just isn't so. He says (on page 23 of his dissertation), that there were three main Arab tribes in Khuzestan -- the Bani Kaab, the Muhaisin, and the Bani Turuf. The Sheikhs of Mohammerah were from the Muhaisin tribe. Ansari gives detailed genealogies. He could not be mistaken on this.
It's possible that some of the Farsi sources (that I can't read) conflate the Bani Kaab (the old rulers of Khuzestan) and the Muhaisin (the newer rulers). They may have taken the attitude that "all those Arabs are alike" -- just like the British xenophobe who said "it's all wogs past Calais". But I see no reason to trust those sources rather than an Iranian historian who got a PhD (from the University of Chicago, no less) for his research. He rummaged in Persian archives as well as British ones.
Your version of Khaz'al is a demonic figure. I don't think we're going to be able to agree on one version of Khaz'al, so when I have time -- which is in short supply right now -- I'll try to rewrite the article to hold two POVs -- the academic, represented by Ansari, and the Persian nationalist, represented by you. Zora 09:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The section on historical background needs to give the reader some knowledge of pre-Arab-settlement era. I hate this "localization" attitudes. Damned 01:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
We give 1863 as his birth year, but the Britanica article (same name) says he was born on born 1861 in Mohammerah. Is the difference due to a difference in calendar systems, or is the exact year simply unknown? Also, it gives the exact date of death as May 25, so perhaps we can add that as well (if there's a proper source, which I can't find). -- Rob 04:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
There are some who, elsewhere in Wikipedia, are arguing for verifiability to delete references to Arab Iranian writers. At the same time, they want to keep this unreferenced, unsourced allegation in this article: His despotic reign, once firmly established, was marred by acts of brutality and oppression, and his primary concern to the end remained the safeguarding of his position as Sheikh. I can smell double standards at work.-- 88.110.190.21 16:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Following a recent AfD discussion, I have redirected the above article here. The one item that had seemed worth merging was an image which, however, was deleted at much the same time from Wikimedia Commons - if anyone finds anything else in previous versions of the redirected article that can be sourced reliably and is worth merging here, please do so. PWilkinson ( talk) 19:07, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
It is not correct that "in the early 1920s...In reality, he was protected and controlled by the British, whose 10,000-man army, the South Persia Rifles, operated with immunity in southern Iran." The South Persia Rifles was disbanded in 1921. Royalcourtier ( talk) 08:48, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
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Hello DrKay. Thank you for your contributions. I understand your point about sourced information but you are deleting chunks of accurate information instead of the specific points which you consider to be unreferenced. Section "Titles and styles" has nothing to do with the honours you are talking about so they do not need to be deleted. Please pay attention to edits. Thank you VivereInPace ( talk) 12:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Shikh Khazal AL-Kabi was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 February 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Khazʽal Ibn Jabir. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article was previously both inaccurate and extremely Persian nationalist in tone. I have tried to remove the inaccuracies and tone down the article. I am basing my rewrite on Ansari, which is based on several years of research in British and Iranian archives. Please note that this version acknowledges the ambiguity of the situation in Khuzestan in the early 20th century -- not really independent but not really under Qajar control either.
This article should be moved to Khaz'al Khan, leaving a redirect at Sheikh Khazal. The title is not part of the man's name. Zora 07:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually the page has inaccurate info. Im still contemplating whether to put an accuracy tag up or rewrite it.-- Zereshk 04:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
It's off-putting to cite books and add links that 99% of the readers of the encyclopedia can't read or use. It's also pushing it to use materials that other, non-Farsi speaking, editors can't read or properly assess. There IS a problem, in that the only reliable English sources I can find are unpublished dissertations. You can't check my sources and I can't check yours. However, you guys can at least order and read the dissertation too (it's not out of print!). Zora 08:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I checked with Village Pump (policy) and the folks there said that it was perfectly OK to use QUOTES from references in foreign languages so long as we had both quote and translation, so that the translation was checkable by someone other than the person who made it. So I've been lax in not quoting from Ansari, and need to add quotes and page references. You guys, if you're going to use Farsi refs, are going to have to support your statements with specific quotes in two languages. I assume that you'll be able to do that. Zora 04:50, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
SC, you've restored a claim that the Sheikhs of Mohammerah were part of the Bani Kaab tribe. According to Ansari, this just isn't so. He says (on page 23 of his dissertation), that there were three main Arab tribes in Khuzestan -- the Bani Kaab, the Muhaisin, and the Bani Turuf. The Sheikhs of Mohammerah were from the Muhaisin tribe. Ansari gives detailed genealogies. He could not be mistaken on this.
It's possible that some of the Farsi sources (that I can't read) conflate the Bani Kaab (the old rulers of Khuzestan) and the Muhaisin (the newer rulers). They may have taken the attitude that "all those Arabs are alike" -- just like the British xenophobe who said "it's all wogs past Calais". But I see no reason to trust those sources rather than an Iranian historian who got a PhD (from the University of Chicago, no less) for his research. He rummaged in Persian archives as well as British ones.
Your version of Khaz'al is a demonic figure. I don't think we're going to be able to agree on one version of Khaz'al, so when I have time -- which is in short supply right now -- I'll try to rewrite the article to hold two POVs -- the academic, represented by Ansari, and the Persian nationalist, represented by you. Zora 09:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The section on historical background needs to give the reader some knowledge of pre-Arab-settlement era. I hate this "localization" attitudes. Damned 01:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
We give 1863 as his birth year, but the Britanica article (same name) says he was born on born 1861 in Mohammerah. Is the difference due to a difference in calendar systems, or is the exact year simply unknown? Also, it gives the exact date of death as May 25, so perhaps we can add that as well (if there's a proper source, which I can't find). -- Rob 04:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
There are some who, elsewhere in Wikipedia, are arguing for verifiability to delete references to Arab Iranian writers. At the same time, they want to keep this unreferenced, unsourced allegation in this article: His despotic reign, once firmly established, was marred by acts of brutality and oppression, and his primary concern to the end remained the safeguarding of his position as Sheikh. I can smell double standards at work.-- 88.110.190.21 16:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Following a recent AfD discussion, I have redirected the above article here. The one item that had seemed worth merging was an image which, however, was deleted at much the same time from Wikimedia Commons - if anyone finds anything else in previous versions of the redirected article that can be sourced reliably and is worth merging here, please do so. PWilkinson ( talk) 19:07, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
It is not correct that "in the early 1920s...In reality, he was protected and controlled by the British, whose 10,000-man army, the South Persia Rifles, operated with immunity in southern Iran." The South Persia Rifles was disbanded in 1921. Royalcourtier ( talk) 08:48, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:28, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello DrKay. Thank you for your contributions. I understand your point about sourced information but you are deleting chunks of accurate information instead of the specific points which you consider to be unreferenced. Section "Titles and styles" has nothing to do with the honours you are talking about so they do not need to be deleted. Please pay attention to edits. Thank you VivereInPace ( talk) 12:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)