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Wikipedia page on Khan Al-Ahmar. What bias? 1) the name is entered in brackets 1st as Hebrew, then Hebrew, finally in Arabic 2) called an "encampment" a derogatory term indicating transience 3) 'located' between 2 Jewish 'settlements' - a tendentious method of geo-location 4) described as 'tents and ramshackle huts' - perjorative nouns and adjectives
- this in the 1st 3 lines!
5) "slated for destruction" - "slated" appears to be a term intended to legitimise ethnic cleansing 6) the school is described as "made of tires and mud" - perjorative description of a well known sustainable building technology
Interesting that the place commemorates the story of the 'Good Samaritan' JC's parable answer to the question"who is my neighbour"
the 'discussion' page in wikipedia ia headed by 2 images http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Wikij.svg/70px-Wikij.svg.png and a Zionist Entity flag. Feeling welcome? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.171.40.226 ( talk) 21:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
This section talks about the Good Samaritan Inn [1] but confuses several sites. The Good Samaritan Inn, which is also pictured, is not called Khan al-Ahmar but Khan Al-Hatruri. [1] It is this which is described; nevertheless the remains "on the opposite side of the inn" are not St Euthymius but an unknown church discovered in 1934. [2] St Euthymius is some 3.5 km southwest [2] and has an inn associated with it. [3] It is this inn which, in the 13th century, became the site of the red Khan, Khan Al-Ahmar, [4] after which the village [3] is named presumably. I have updated the section based on this clarification of the locations. Mlevitt1 ( talk) 23:32, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
In the first line of the history section it says:
According to a census conducted in 1931 by the British Mandate authorities, Al-Auja had a population of 27, in 3 houses.
Al-Auja, Jericho is some place else. Nearby, but not relevant to this entry So why is this mentioned here? Shmuel A. Kam ( talk) 22:05, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Maps show "Kh. al Khan el Ahmar" about 2km south. There was a rail head there at one time. Some care is needed in interpretting sources. Zero talk 03:07, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
this. It is not an 'activists' claim: the petition was made by Maale Adunim and other settlements in order to expand their settlements. Zonscheine simply stated what numerous sources recapitulate. This trigger-happy reverting is reaching neurotic levels. The edit summary has no basis in policy, indeed is insouciant of policy. Nishidani ( talk) 14:31, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
POV warriors barging in to excise material whose reliability can be independently verified, using Undue, 'activist' or any other excuse, are not here to constructively edit. Nishidani ( talk) 14:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
I know far more about this topic than you. Quoting the opinion of yet another activist group does not really help your argument. Attack Ramon ( talk) 14:55, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Neither the Gatestone Institute nor Arutz Sheva are reliable sources. nableezy - 21:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The opinion that the eviction is a war crime is covered, in significant detail. Whether or not the planned eviction is a war crime, the material regarding the relocation package is well sourced. There is no reasonable grounds for its removal, which is a blatant violation of the NPOV policy. Attack Ramon ( talk) 21:51, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Insertion of partisan propaganda advocacy ties, such as the Palestine Chronicle, for statements of fact is not acceptable (in this case - claiming a puddle is a flood, and that "settlers stormed" the location - accompanied with a video of a
Vacuum truck cleaning up the sewage puddle). This is all the more egregious given that reliable outlets, such as the Associated Press, have reported on the sewage puddle saying it is {apparently from a nearby Israeli settlement.
and The sewage flowed downhill toward Khan al-Ahmar earlier this week, and on Friday was still pooled in a ravine by the West Bank community’s corrugated tin shacks.
.
AP.
Icewhiz (
talk) 14:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
In early October 2018, sewage, apparently from a nearby settlement, accumulated a ravine next to the village. The Civil Administration said a sewage pipe had burst in the area. [1]. To this, if you have a source reliable enough for an attributed Mustafa Barghouti quote (I don't see it in any of the 3 in the article) or someone else, you could add a quote. While that would pass WP:V, I would still argue that a sewage puddle in a wadi with regular water flow is rather UNDUE. Icewhiz ( talk) 15:10, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
a 501(c)3 non-profit organization whose mission is to educate the general public by providing a forum.... [4] Per their contact info, they are located in Mountlake Terrace, Washington. [5] This advocacy organization is very much Western. It is not, however, a reliable source. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:03, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Is not a primary source. This is pretty basic, primary sources are from those connected to the event. The Israeli government is a primary source. The villagers are primary sources. Amnesty International however is at least one step removed from the event, that event being the planned demolition of this village. As such I have reverted the removal of it as a primary source as that is plainly not true. nableezy - 15:12, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Nishidani, Zero0000, Mlevitt1, and Atefrat: The "article" puts together disparate bits of info about very different entities, w/o understanding the meaning of the info, and creating (I hope: not intentionally) the wrong impression that the unconnected parts create one single whole. There is NO good reason to create a history of the "village" by listing up facts and numbers without understanding and explaining them.
I am convinced the "village" should keep its page with all the twists and turns in the fate of these poor miserable Bedouin, but not with this huge backpack of unrelated stuff.
PS: Danny the Digger claims that hatruri means hungry. True? We need the explanation. Cheers,
Arminden (
talk) 13:45, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Nishidani, beautiful point, thank you. But I'm not sure it fully applies here: Bedouin do very well know which lands they control (can use for grazing), and have to fight with other tribes or villagers over land if they want to move or expand their reach. Secondly, these Bedouin are not locals, their lands were in the Negev. Thirdly, the Ottomans did do their best to register property for taxation purposes, and that's what all Wikipedia pages on Palestinian depopulated villages are feeding on (you cannot have it both ways). The Sultan counted as owner of all lands not privately or waqf-owned. As I wrote, I'm sure there are some Palestinians somewhere who can lay claim to at least some of the land concerned, but these Bedouin are in a different boat. Best regards, Arminden ( talk) 16:26, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm traveling and can't spend time on this at the moment; in any case I don't know of adequate sources yet. I can offer some information. The Khan al-Ahmar of British documents is undoubtedly the Kh. el Khan el Ahmar that appeared on maps at 1819/1333 (about 2km south of the present Khan al-Ahmar). The village land it sat on was labeled El Khan El Ahmar on the 1:20,000 cadastral map and was very large. That's enough to account for the British statistics, but it isn't enough to account for the present settlement at 1823/1353. Probably there is no connection between the inhabitants then and now, but that's a guess. How the name got moved, I don't know. Like Nish, I don't recognise the right of Israel to decide what is a village in places outside Israel. Zero talk 19:05, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
In many UN documents they refer to this location as "Khan Al Ahmar/Abu Al-Helu". Anyone knows what that's about, I couldn't see anything in the article? Selfstudier ( talk) 15:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Please note that these terms: "until a negotiated resolution is found" are not correct. It should be : "to give a chance to the negotiations"
(aljazeera.com is correct, other sources say it : "The intention [of the postponement] is to give a chance to the negotiations and the offers we received from different bodies" ... "I don't intend to postpone it until further notice contrary to what has been reported, but [make it happen] within a short, fixed period of time. The duration we will give to evacuate it in consent will be decided by the cabinet." "This is the decision of the court, this is our policy and it will be implemented".
See also :
Haaretz, Jun 17, 2019: Israel Postpones Eviction of West Bank Bedouin Village of Khan al-Ahmar Until December).
According to Sarah Irving (March 2012). Palestine. Bradt Travel Guides. pp. 130–. ISBN 978-1-84162-367-2. the Good Samaritan Inn (misidentified as Khan al-Ahmar) together with both nearby monasteries are controlled by the Israeli National Parks Authority ( https://www.parks.org.il/en/reserve-park/good-samaritan-museum/). Since the Euthymius monastery ruin (the later Khan al-Ahmar) is in the industrial park settlement (the other being in the main settlement), does this mean that Palestinians cannot visit? What about the Good Samaritan Inn? That's on the highway, can they visit there? Anyone know? Selfstudier ( talk) 08:58, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
I have a problem: the famous picture to the right (there are at least 3 versions only on commons; and it was also used on a zillion postcards), originally came from Detroit Photographic Company, 1905, AFAIK, with the info that it was taken between ca. 1890 and ca. 1900. It clearly states that it is Khan-el-Ahmar, on the way to Jericho.
To me this looks as if it is Khan al-Hatruri/Good Samaritan Inn.
Could there (in the late Ottoman era) have been two operating Khans, just a couple of kilometres apart, one at Khan-el-Ahmar and one at Khan al-Hatruri? That sounds unlikely, to say the least. And if there had been, surely some traveller would have remarked on it. No−one did, AFAIK.
Ok, so here is my theory: I think the picture is misnamed; it should have been named "Khan al-Hatruri". This is less surprising that it might seem: there were professional (foreign) photographers who did not know the area, operating in Palestine at the time: they might easily have gotten the name wrong. (I know of a postcard from my country (from between WW1 and WW2) which has famously misprinted the location, too: the postcard maker was a national company which obviously didn't have local knowledge.)
Aaaaaaand, look at this old postcard for sale, ostensibly showing "Haiffa. Jewish Temple". If I am not mistaken, it shows the Tomb of Rabbi Meir...which is up by Tiberias (!) ...which is pretty far from Haifa.....
Comments? Huldra ( talk) 22:14, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
1) Where is the "original" Khan al-Ahmar (the place, not the area)? 2) Was there an inn (a Khan)there? It seems possible that the location of Euthymius monastery is Khan al-Ahmar (a location rather than an area). https://web.archive.org/web/20170617213902/http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/sbf/Books/LA43/43339YH.pdf on page 357. The Jerome Murphy ref in the article also identifies the site as being Khan al-Ahmar. While Murphy does not mention an inn, the more detailed Biblewalks ref does mention an inn as forming part of the monastery.I don't know how reliable http://allaboutjerusalem.com/tour/euthemius-monastery is, that says there was a khan but that it ceased to operate when the monastery was finally abandoned.
On the other hand, there are several refs identifying the site of the Good Samaritan Inn as being Khan al-Ahmar although it seems possible that they just mean the area rather than a specific place. So it's all a bit confusing. Selfstudier ( talk) 11:41, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
As mandate era references, we have D. J. Chitty & A. H. M. Jones (1928) The Church of St. Euthymius at Khan El-Ahmar, Near Jerusalem, Palestine Exploration Quarterly, 60:4, 175-178, DOI: 10.1179/peq.1928.60.4.175 and
E. Hanbury Hankin (1929) The Structure of the Mosaics from the Church of St. Euthymius at Khan El-Ahmar, Palestine Exploration Quarterly, 61:2, 98-103, DOI: 10.1179/peq.1929.61.2.98 Selfstudier ( talk) 13:24, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
The Survey of Western Palestine (for the PEF), 1883, mentions both Khan al-Ahmar ("the ruins of a Saracenic hostel beside the old road to Jerusalem") and Khan al-Hatruri ("a Saracenic hostel standing on high ground just North of the present Jericho road"). Is it possible the road layout might have been somewhat different in that time, idk? Selfstudier ( talk) 15:29, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
It is reported to us on good authority that the people of Silwan claim ownership of this site upon which are the ruins of the monastery and church of St Euthymius situated a little to the South of the old road to Nabi Musa on a track branching from the road to Jericho at a point between the 13th and 14th kilometre stones. The place is known as the Khan al-Ahmar but is not to be confused with the Good Samaritan Inn known by the same name.
Question answered, see amended caption. That's precisely why we need to use clear names and definitions. Lots of "red inns", "white houses" and "blue rivers" to go around in the Arabic-speaking world. Arminden ( talk) 04:20, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
The reason for lock protection is not stated. There should be sufficient reason for it. Otherwise it shoud be deleted. Saifullah.vguj ( talk) 17:17, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
There should be no opposition to this addition, but I know better by now: in I/P, even calling Earth a planet would lead to objections, so here is why this is not a Zionist, Hamas-led, or Martian plot to discredit the village.
I see it time and time again that calling the village by the name of the khan, with no qualification, is leading to never-ending confusion. Huldra, a very experienced editor in this area, has just fallen into this very common trap, wikilinking an explanation for the Arabic name of the Laura of Euthymius, "Khan el-Akhmar", to... the Bedouin village here. There is no direct connection between the two. Of course she would know this if asked, but it's so misleading, that anyone can fall into this trap. But: by just adding "(village)" behind the name, things are sorted. Nobody loses, it's win-win, nobody is taking anything away from the village, we can make sure that there are so many tags and cross-references at Laura of Euthymius/Khan el-Ahmar, and at Khan al-Hatruri/ Inn of the Good Samaritan/sometimes also "Khan al-Ahmar", that every user looking for the village will find it with their eyes closed.
These were the practical reasons. Now a bit further. The khan (inn) has been known for many centuries by its Arabic name, "Khan al-Ahmar", with "Inn of the Good Samaritan" as its Christian, Western name. The recent Palestinian village, or community of several Bedouin encampments, has been using the name of the khan since far more recently (decades). The article does not really deal with the history of the inhabitants. The actual khan, although partially ruined, has offered far better shelter than the barren hills around: see the late-19th-century description at Laura of Euthymius#Ottoman period. It has gradually fallen into worse disrepair, being less and less attractive for housing. The 1931 census gives numbers, but doesn't tell a story: 25 Muslims and 2 Christians in 3 houses can mean anything, 3 rooms in the old khan, or the khan and two (or 10) Bedouin tents nearby. The 1945 statistics already contain: zero population. In 1952, the Jahalins chased by Israel out of their Negev territory, are looking for a grasing area not already taken and settle around the road, not far from the khan, and maybe sometimes sheltering inside the by now roofless structure. They of course adopt the existing, approximate name: "Where are you living?" "At the Red Inn." Not a lie, but not an administratively & academically/encycloaedically accurate answer either :)) I can't be 100% sure, but still I am, because this is the only line that connects all the dots. Does it remove any legitimacy from the settlement? Not at all. Many Middle-Eastern cities have started like this.
Look at the Google map: you can find on it what you can also see when travelling through the area. One Bedouin encampment after the other, on both sides of the road. As any Bedouin tribe, families stick together, but grasing opportunities in an arid area mean that they can pitch their tents, later build their huts, and quite possibly raise concrete buildings in the end, at some distance from each other. They would all know exactly with whom they belong together, and once a village takes roots, they would build a mosque, a school, etc. for them all. What do we see on the Google map? A pin without a specific name marking the main settlement, so Khan al-Ahmar (Central); then all around it are Khan al-Ahmar al-Kurshan, Khan al-Ahmar Mihtawish, Khan al-Ahmar Abu-Falah, Khan al-Ahmar Umm-Adeif, and even one more Khan al-Ahmar with no addition east of Mishor Adummim (this one might be a mistake, or maybe not). Meaning what? 6 distinct villages? Certainly not. 6 encampments, or one village and 5 satellites, call it as you will. Again, recognising that these are facts on the ground doesn't take away anything from the legitimacy, rights, .... whatever, of the inhabitants. But it connects to reality.
Once all editors of this article start understanding what the Khan al-Ahmar village actually is, we can start writing the history section and addressing all other issues calmly and matter-of-fact. Amman didn't start in a much different manner in 1878 (except that it was resettled by Circassians, not Bedouin; same goes for Jerash), nor did Shibli in the 20th century (Bedouin starting from scratch), or al-Ubeidiya at an earlier point in time, or Umm Sayhoun near Petra, and an endless number of other places, some of which are now large cities, towns, villages, or have long disappeared.
So: let's keep the name Khan al-Ahmar without qualification for its much older "owner", the khan. "Khan al-Ahmar"... is a khan (inn).... whose name means "red inn"... Khan al-Ahmar (village)... is a nearby village. Does it need more arguments? Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 04:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Follks, khan is inn. Khan el-ahmar is red inn. There is a "Red Inn" called by this name for some 750 years. 750 years? Not impressed? A Muslim, Baibars if I'm recalling correctly, terminated the monastery and rung in the khan period. A hero of Muslim anti-Western fight, OK? There are endless pilgrim and traveller reports using the name, then an even higher amount of scientific papers, the ruined monastery still is a stunning tourist attraction for pilgrims and non-pilgrims alike. Then, in the 1950s, that's 70 years ago, a Bedouin tribe was chased out of the Negev by Israel and settled in the general area of the khan. Eventually some started calling their various, slightly spread-out encampments by the name of the better-known khan PLUS the name of the pater familias (if you ask me: only by the latter, go and ask them, but whatever). Then came a short (in the historical perspective) period of media focus on the struggle against demolition, and journalists use shorthand names, don't bother much for reality, they have a set number of characters allowed per article. (We don't.) THAT IS NOT A BASE FOR NAMING AN ENCYCLOPEDIC ARTICLE. Besides, I didn't ask to change the name, it's still Khan al-Ahmar for Ba'al sake, just added a qualifying "village" behind it. Which requires one redirect to be amended accordingly. It's a technicality, but it serves the user (not even mentioning logic). Do we need to be talking for talking's sake? Always, about anything? Each of you, ask yourselves: what do you, actually, object against it? What is the gain vs. any perceived loss? Arminden ( talk) 16:02, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Ready-made solution, I hope it satisfies everybody: I remove the request to reset redirect Khan al-Ahmar to Laura of Euthymius/Khan el-Ahmar, and set up a disambiguation page on that name instead. Work already done (see below), just needs to be set it.
Khan al-Ahmar or Khan el-Ahmar, meaning "Red Caravanserai" in Arabic, may refer to different sites in the Adummim, West Bank area:
It can also refer to:
....See also....
double-bracket... disambiguation|geo... double-bracket
Arminden ( talk) 16:22, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Khan al-Ahmar is the Arabic name of both the Monastery of Euthymius and of the Inn of the Good Samaritan site (seldom used for the latter, but still documented; more commonly called Khan al-Hatruri). Is there a reliable source for the origin of the village name? I believe that the Bedouin first took refuge in the ruins of the khan at the former Monastery of Euthymius, not at the Good Samaritan Inn, and kept the name when they moved and set up new encampments in the immediate vicinity, but that's not good enough, a source is needed for the name. Maybe there was a popular mix-up among some between the two "Red Khans", but hard to believe this was the case with the Bedouin themselves, who know their way around very well.
Once clarified: the DAB page should have the sentence "modern nearby village took its name from this site" added next to the appropriate one of the two khan sites. Also, if it's indeed the Monastery of Euthymius, that one needs to be lifted up one line, before the Samaritan, as it's a) only known as Khan al-Ahmar, and b) closely related to the village, which has been placed as the main definition. Arminden ( talk) 12:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
References
To follow on from the above, Palestinian Gazette 1939 shows "Khan el-Ahmar, El" as an administrative district during the Mandate so it would seem that the name comes from those village lands per the above map and it is hard to see where else the name of the village lands might have come from other than from the Arabic name of the monastery. The Jahalin must then have taken that name for their community which was apparently near to the monastery (p.63) initially until the Israelis took the land and moved them on for the purposes of constructing Ma'ale Adumim. Selfstudier ( talk) 19:58, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I find it racist that the illegal Palestinian settlements, especially those already found illegal as they sit on lands owned by others are not explicitly called such, while perfectly legal Jewish cities and towns are openly called settlements.
Since this is an illegal settlement by all accords it should be marked as such. 2A00:A040:19E:E12A:A8B2:8923:FBCB:35C1 ( talk) 21:19, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
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Wikipedia page on Khan Al-Ahmar. What bias? 1) the name is entered in brackets 1st as Hebrew, then Hebrew, finally in Arabic 2) called an "encampment" a derogatory term indicating transience 3) 'located' between 2 Jewish 'settlements' - a tendentious method of geo-location 4) described as 'tents and ramshackle huts' - perjorative nouns and adjectives
- this in the 1st 3 lines!
5) "slated for destruction" - "slated" appears to be a term intended to legitimise ethnic cleansing 6) the school is described as "made of tires and mud" - perjorative description of a well known sustainable building technology
Interesting that the place commemorates the story of the 'Good Samaritan' JC's parable answer to the question"who is my neighbour"
the 'discussion' page in wikipedia ia headed by 2 images http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Wikij.svg/70px-Wikij.svg.png and a Zionist Entity flag. Feeling welcome? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.171.40.226 ( talk) 21:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
This section talks about the Good Samaritan Inn [1] but confuses several sites. The Good Samaritan Inn, which is also pictured, is not called Khan al-Ahmar but Khan Al-Hatruri. [1] It is this which is described; nevertheless the remains "on the opposite side of the inn" are not St Euthymius but an unknown church discovered in 1934. [2] St Euthymius is some 3.5 km southwest [2] and has an inn associated with it. [3] It is this inn which, in the 13th century, became the site of the red Khan, Khan Al-Ahmar, [4] after which the village [3] is named presumably. I have updated the section based on this clarification of the locations. Mlevitt1 ( talk) 23:32, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
In the first line of the history section it says:
According to a census conducted in 1931 by the British Mandate authorities, Al-Auja had a population of 27, in 3 houses.
Al-Auja, Jericho is some place else. Nearby, but not relevant to this entry So why is this mentioned here? Shmuel A. Kam ( talk) 22:05, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
Maps show "Kh. al Khan el Ahmar" about 2km south. There was a rail head there at one time. Some care is needed in interpretting sources. Zero talk 03:07, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
this. It is not an 'activists' claim: the petition was made by Maale Adunim and other settlements in order to expand their settlements. Zonscheine simply stated what numerous sources recapitulate. This trigger-happy reverting is reaching neurotic levels. The edit summary has no basis in policy, indeed is insouciant of policy. Nishidani ( talk) 14:31, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
POV warriors barging in to excise material whose reliability can be independently verified, using Undue, 'activist' or any other excuse, are not here to constructively edit. Nishidani ( talk) 14:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
I know far more about this topic than you. Quoting the opinion of yet another activist group does not really help your argument. Attack Ramon ( talk) 14:55, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Neither the Gatestone Institute nor Arutz Sheva are reliable sources. nableezy - 21:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The opinion that the eviction is a war crime is covered, in significant detail. Whether or not the planned eviction is a war crime, the material regarding the relocation package is well sourced. There is no reasonable grounds for its removal, which is a blatant violation of the NPOV policy. Attack Ramon ( talk) 21:51, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Insertion of partisan propaganda advocacy ties, such as the Palestine Chronicle, for statements of fact is not acceptable (in this case - claiming a puddle is a flood, and that "settlers stormed" the location - accompanied with a video of a
Vacuum truck cleaning up the sewage puddle). This is all the more egregious given that reliable outlets, such as the Associated Press, have reported on the sewage puddle saying it is {apparently from a nearby Israeli settlement.
and The sewage flowed downhill toward Khan al-Ahmar earlier this week, and on Friday was still pooled in a ravine by the West Bank community’s corrugated tin shacks.
.
AP.
Icewhiz (
talk) 14:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
In early October 2018, sewage, apparently from a nearby settlement, accumulated a ravine next to the village. The Civil Administration said a sewage pipe had burst in the area. [1]. To this, if you have a source reliable enough for an attributed Mustafa Barghouti quote (I don't see it in any of the 3 in the article) or someone else, you could add a quote. While that would pass WP:V, I would still argue that a sewage puddle in a wadi with regular water flow is rather UNDUE. Icewhiz ( talk) 15:10, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
a 501(c)3 non-profit organization whose mission is to educate the general public by providing a forum.... [4] Per their contact info, they are located in Mountlake Terrace, Washington. [5] This advocacy organization is very much Western. It is not, however, a reliable source. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:03, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Is not a primary source. This is pretty basic, primary sources are from those connected to the event. The Israeli government is a primary source. The villagers are primary sources. Amnesty International however is at least one step removed from the event, that event being the planned demolition of this village. As such I have reverted the removal of it as a primary source as that is plainly not true. nableezy - 15:12, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Nishidani, Zero0000, Mlevitt1, and Atefrat: The "article" puts together disparate bits of info about very different entities, w/o understanding the meaning of the info, and creating (I hope: not intentionally) the wrong impression that the unconnected parts create one single whole. There is NO good reason to create a history of the "village" by listing up facts and numbers without understanding and explaining them.
I am convinced the "village" should keep its page with all the twists and turns in the fate of these poor miserable Bedouin, but not with this huge backpack of unrelated stuff.
PS: Danny the Digger claims that hatruri means hungry. True? We need the explanation. Cheers,
Arminden (
talk) 13:45, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
Nishidani, beautiful point, thank you. But I'm not sure it fully applies here: Bedouin do very well know which lands they control (can use for grazing), and have to fight with other tribes or villagers over land if they want to move or expand their reach. Secondly, these Bedouin are not locals, their lands were in the Negev. Thirdly, the Ottomans did do their best to register property for taxation purposes, and that's what all Wikipedia pages on Palestinian depopulated villages are feeding on (you cannot have it both ways). The Sultan counted as owner of all lands not privately or waqf-owned. As I wrote, I'm sure there are some Palestinians somewhere who can lay claim to at least some of the land concerned, but these Bedouin are in a different boat. Best regards, Arminden ( talk) 16:26, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm traveling and can't spend time on this at the moment; in any case I don't know of adequate sources yet. I can offer some information. The Khan al-Ahmar of British documents is undoubtedly the Kh. el Khan el Ahmar that appeared on maps at 1819/1333 (about 2km south of the present Khan al-Ahmar). The village land it sat on was labeled El Khan El Ahmar on the 1:20,000 cadastral map and was very large. That's enough to account for the British statistics, but it isn't enough to account for the present settlement at 1823/1353. Probably there is no connection between the inhabitants then and now, but that's a guess. How the name got moved, I don't know. Like Nish, I don't recognise the right of Israel to decide what is a village in places outside Israel. Zero talk 19:05, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
In many UN documents they refer to this location as "Khan Al Ahmar/Abu Al-Helu". Anyone knows what that's about, I couldn't see anything in the article? Selfstudier ( talk) 15:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Please note that these terms: "until a negotiated resolution is found" are not correct. It should be : "to give a chance to the negotiations"
(aljazeera.com is correct, other sources say it : "The intention [of the postponement] is to give a chance to the negotiations and the offers we received from different bodies" ... "I don't intend to postpone it until further notice contrary to what has been reported, but [make it happen] within a short, fixed period of time. The duration we will give to evacuate it in consent will be decided by the cabinet." "This is the decision of the court, this is our policy and it will be implemented".
See also :
Haaretz, Jun 17, 2019: Israel Postpones Eviction of West Bank Bedouin Village of Khan al-Ahmar Until December).
According to Sarah Irving (March 2012). Palestine. Bradt Travel Guides. pp. 130–. ISBN 978-1-84162-367-2. the Good Samaritan Inn (misidentified as Khan al-Ahmar) together with both nearby monasteries are controlled by the Israeli National Parks Authority ( https://www.parks.org.il/en/reserve-park/good-samaritan-museum/). Since the Euthymius monastery ruin (the later Khan al-Ahmar) is in the industrial park settlement (the other being in the main settlement), does this mean that Palestinians cannot visit? What about the Good Samaritan Inn? That's on the highway, can they visit there? Anyone know? Selfstudier ( talk) 08:58, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
I have a problem: the famous picture to the right (there are at least 3 versions only on commons; and it was also used on a zillion postcards), originally came from Detroit Photographic Company, 1905, AFAIK, with the info that it was taken between ca. 1890 and ca. 1900. It clearly states that it is Khan-el-Ahmar, on the way to Jericho.
To me this looks as if it is Khan al-Hatruri/Good Samaritan Inn.
Could there (in the late Ottoman era) have been two operating Khans, just a couple of kilometres apart, one at Khan-el-Ahmar and one at Khan al-Hatruri? That sounds unlikely, to say the least. And if there had been, surely some traveller would have remarked on it. No−one did, AFAIK.
Ok, so here is my theory: I think the picture is misnamed; it should have been named "Khan al-Hatruri". This is less surprising that it might seem: there were professional (foreign) photographers who did not know the area, operating in Palestine at the time: they might easily have gotten the name wrong. (I know of a postcard from my country (from between WW1 and WW2) which has famously misprinted the location, too: the postcard maker was a national company which obviously didn't have local knowledge.)
Aaaaaaand, look at this old postcard for sale, ostensibly showing "Haiffa. Jewish Temple". If I am not mistaken, it shows the Tomb of Rabbi Meir...which is up by Tiberias (!) ...which is pretty far from Haifa.....
Comments? Huldra ( talk) 22:14, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
1) Where is the "original" Khan al-Ahmar (the place, not the area)? 2) Was there an inn (a Khan)there? It seems possible that the location of Euthymius monastery is Khan al-Ahmar (a location rather than an area). https://web.archive.org/web/20170617213902/http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/sbf/Books/LA43/43339YH.pdf on page 357. The Jerome Murphy ref in the article also identifies the site as being Khan al-Ahmar. While Murphy does not mention an inn, the more detailed Biblewalks ref does mention an inn as forming part of the monastery.I don't know how reliable http://allaboutjerusalem.com/tour/euthemius-monastery is, that says there was a khan but that it ceased to operate when the monastery was finally abandoned.
On the other hand, there are several refs identifying the site of the Good Samaritan Inn as being Khan al-Ahmar although it seems possible that they just mean the area rather than a specific place. So it's all a bit confusing. Selfstudier ( talk) 11:41, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
As mandate era references, we have D. J. Chitty & A. H. M. Jones (1928) The Church of St. Euthymius at Khan El-Ahmar, Near Jerusalem, Palestine Exploration Quarterly, 60:4, 175-178, DOI: 10.1179/peq.1928.60.4.175 and
E. Hanbury Hankin (1929) The Structure of the Mosaics from the Church of St. Euthymius at Khan El-Ahmar, Palestine Exploration Quarterly, 61:2, 98-103, DOI: 10.1179/peq.1929.61.2.98 Selfstudier ( talk) 13:24, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
The Survey of Western Palestine (for the PEF), 1883, mentions both Khan al-Ahmar ("the ruins of a Saracenic hostel beside the old road to Jerusalem") and Khan al-Hatruri ("a Saracenic hostel standing on high ground just North of the present Jericho road"). Is it possible the road layout might have been somewhat different in that time, idk? Selfstudier ( talk) 15:29, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
It is reported to us on good authority that the people of Silwan claim ownership of this site upon which are the ruins of the monastery and church of St Euthymius situated a little to the South of the old road to Nabi Musa on a track branching from the road to Jericho at a point between the 13th and 14th kilometre stones. The place is known as the Khan al-Ahmar but is not to be confused with the Good Samaritan Inn known by the same name.
Question answered, see amended caption. That's precisely why we need to use clear names and definitions. Lots of "red inns", "white houses" and "blue rivers" to go around in the Arabic-speaking world. Arminden ( talk) 04:20, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
The reason for lock protection is not stated. There should be sufficient reason for it. Otherwise it shoud be deleted. Saifullah.vguj ( talk) 17:17, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
There should be no opposition to this addition, but I know better by now: in I/P, even calling Earth a planet would lead to objections, so here is why this is not a Zionist, Hamas-led, or Martian plot to discredit the village.
I see it time and time again that calling the village by the name of the khan, with no qualification, is leading to never-ending confusion. Huldra, a very experienced editor in this area, has just fallen into this very common trap, wikilinking an explanation for the Arabic name of the Laura of Euthymius, "Khan el-Akhmar", to... the Bedouin village here. There is no direct connection between the two. Of course she would know this if asked, but it's so misleading, that anyone can fall into this trap. But: by just adding "(village)" behind the name, things are sorted. Nobody loses, it's win-win, nobody is taking anything away from the village, we can make sure that there are so many tags and cross-references at Laura of Euthymius/Khan el-Ahmar, and at Khan al-Hatruri/ Inn of the Good Samaritan/sometimes also "Khan al-Ahmar", that every user looking for the village will find it with their eyes closed.
These were the practical reasons. Now a bit further. The khan (inn) has been known for many centuries by its Arabic name, "Khan al-Ahmar", with "Inn of the Good Samaritan" as its Christian, Western name. The recent Palestinian village, or community of several Bedouin encampments, has been using the name of the khan since far more recently (decades). The article does not really deal with the history of the inhabitants. The actual khan, although partially ruined, has offered far better shelter than the barren hills around: see the late-19th-century description at Laura of Euthymius#Ottoman period. It has gradually fallen into worse disrepair, being less and less attractive for housing. The 1931 census gives numbers, but doesn't tell a story: 25 Muslims and 2 Christians in 3 houses can mean anything, 3 rooms in the old khan, or the khan and two (or 10) Bedouin tents nearby. The 1945 statistics already contain: zero population. In 1952, the Jahalins chased by Israel out of their Negev territory, are looking for a grasing area not already taken and settle around the road, not far from the khan, and maybe sometimes sheltering inside the by now roofless structure. They of course adopt the existing, approximate name: "Where are you living?" "At the Red Inn." Not a lie, but not an administratively & academically/encycloaedically accurate answer either :)) I can't be 100% sure, but still I am, because this is the only line that connects all the dots. Does it remove any legitimacy from the settlement? Not at all. Many Middle-Eastern cities have started like this.
Look at the Google map: you can find on it what you can also see when travelling through the area. One Bedouin encampment after the other, on both sides of the road. As any Bedouin tribe, families stick together, but grasing opportunities in an arid area mean that they can pitch their tents, later build their huts, and quite possibly raise concrete buildings in the end, at some distance from each other. They would all know exactly with whom they belong together, and once a village takes roots, they would build a mosque, a school, etc. for them all. What do we see on the Google map? A pin without a specific name marking the main settlement, so Khan al-Ahmar (Central); then all around it are Khan al-Ahmar al-Kurshan, Khan al-Ahmar Mihtawish, Khan al-Ahmar Abu-Falah, Khan al-Ahmar Umm-Adeif, and even one more Khan al-Ahmar with no addition east of Mishor Adummim (this one might be a mistake, or maybe not). Meaning what? 6 distinct villages? Certainly not. 6 encampments, or one village and 5 satellites, call it as you will. Again, recognising that these are facts on the ground doesn't take away anything from the legitimacy, rights, .... whatever, of the inhabitants. But it connects to reality.
Once all editors of this article start understanding what the Khan al-Ahmar village actually is, we can start writing the history section and addressing all other issues calmly and matter-of-fact. Amman didn't start in a much different manner in 1878 (except that it was resettled by Circassians, not Bedouin; same goes for Jerash), nor did Shibli in the 20th century (Bedouin starting from scratch), or al-Ubeidiya at an earlier point in time, or Umm Sayhoun near Petra, and an endless number of other places, some of which are now large cities, towns, villages, or have long disappeared.
So: let's keep the name Khan al-Ahmar without qualification for its much older "owner", the khan. "Khan al-Ahmar"... is a khan (inn).... whose name means "red inn"... Khan al-Ahmar (village)... is a nearby village. Does it need more arguments? Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 04:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Follks, khan is inn. Khan el-ahmar is red inn. There is a "Red Inn" called by this name for some 750 years. 750 years? Not impressed? A Muslim, Baibars if I'm recalling correctly, terminated the monastery and rung in the khan period. A hero of Muslim anti-Western fight, OK? There are endless pilgrim and traveller reports using the name, then an even higher amount of scientific papers, the ruined monastery still is a stunning tourist attraction for pilgrims and non-pilgrims alike. Then, in the 1950s, that's 70 years ago, a Bedouin tribe was chased out of the Negev by Israel and settled in the general area of the khan. Eventually some started calling their various, slightly spread-out encampments by the name of the better-known khan PLUS the name of the pater familias (if you ask me: only by the latter, go and ask them, but whatever). Then came a short (in the historical perspective) period of media focus on the struggle against demolition, and journalists use shorthand names, don't bother much for reality, they have a set number of characters allowed per article. (We don't.) THAT IS NOT A BASE FOR NAMING AN ENCYCLOPEDIC ARTICLE. Besides, I didn't ask to change the name, it's still Khan al-Ahmar for Ba'al sake, just added a qualifying "village" behind it. Which requires one redirect to be amended accordingly. It's a technicality, but it serves the user (not even mentioning logic). Do we need to be talking for talking's sake? Always, about anything? Each of you, ask yourselves: what do you, actually, object against it? What is the gain vs. any perceived loss? Arminden ( talk) 16:02, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Ready-made solution, I hope it satisfies everybody: I remove the request to reset redirect Khan al-Ahmar to Laura of Euthymius/Khan el-Ahmar, and set up a disambiguation page on that name instead. Work already done (see below), just needs to be set it.
Khan al-Ahmar or Khan el-Ahmar, meaning "Red Caravanserai" in Arabic, may refer to different sites in the Adummim, West Bank area:
It can also refer to:
....See also....
double-bracket... disambiguation|geo... double-bracket
Arminden ( talk) 16:22, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Khan al-Ahmar is the Arabic name of both the Monastery of Euthymius and of the Inn of the Good Samaritan site (seldom used for the latter, but still documented; more commonly called Khan al-Hatruri). Is there a reliable source for the origin of the village name? I believe that the Bedouin first took refuge in the ruins of the khan at the former Monastery of Euthymius, not at the Good Samaritan Inn, and kept the name when they moved and set up new encampments in the immediate vicinity, but that's not good enough, a source is needed for the name. Maybe there was a popular mix-up among some between the two "Red Khans", but hard to believe this was the case with the Bedouin themselves, who know their way around very well.
Once clarified: the DAB page should have the sentence "modern nearby village took its name from this site" added next to the appropriate one of the two khan sites. Also, if it's indeed the Monastery of Euthymius, that one needs to be lifted up one line, before the Samaritan, as it's a) only known as Khan al-Ahmar, and b) closely related to the village, which has been placed as the main definition. Arminden ( talk) 12:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
References
To follow on from the above, Palestinian Gazette 1939 shows "Khan el-Ahmar, El" as an administrative district during the Mandate so it would seem that the name comes from those village lands per the above map and it is hard to see where else the name of the village lands might have come from other than from the Arabic name of the monastery. The Jahalin must then have taken that name for their community which was apparently near to the monastery (p.63) initially until the Israelis took the land and moved them on for the purposes of constructing Ma'ale Adumim. Selfstudier ( talk) 19:58, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I find it racist that the illegal Palestinian settlements, especially those already found illegal as they sit on lands owned by others are not explicitly called such, while perfectly legal Jewish cities and towns are openly called settlements.
Since this is an illegal settlement by all accords it should be marked as such. 2A00:A040:19E:E12A:A8B2:8923:FBCB:35C1 ( talk) 21:19, 14 March 2023 (UTC)