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It's really misleading to say only Nairs were matrilineal in Kerala society along with muslims in Malabar(also in Lakshadweep). In fact, majority of the castes were/are matrilineal in Malabar, including Payyannor Namboothiris. In fact, matrilineality is not even unique to Kerala society in South India. Tuluvas were also matrilineal. And terming all Tiyyas as patriarchal is totally wrong as many of them were matrilineal(I suppose even in South Kerala).
Manjunatha (16 Mar 2006)
Probably, sentence should be rephrased or a new section should be added to give the present and past situation. I suppose, matrilineality is mostly dying out. Malabar in the article could be misleading. It should be, many Hindus throughout Kerala practiced matrilineal system. I suppose, historians even talk about matrilineal system in Travancore.
Manjunatha (21 Mar 2006)
Manjunatha (21 Mar 2006)
I'm not sure of how many of you aware of Tulu people and their culture. Were there no studies dealing with Malayalee-Tulu connection? I'm from Mangalore and for me Tulu, Malayalee cultural connection is striking. Be it matrilineal system, spirit worship( Theyyam in Malabar and Nema in Tulu Nadu).
Probably, because of linguistic studies it's felt that Malayalees were infact Tamils before. However, we have to see that Tulu or Proto-Tulu branches out of South Dravidian language along with Proto-Tamil-Kannada(supposed to Proto-Tamil here). Please find the reference here. In my opinion a big chunk of Malabar Malayalees might have Proto-Tulu origins. Probably, Proto-Tamil origins dominates in South(As far as I know, Theyyam is restricted to Malabar region).
Well, it's bit naive to think Malayalees spoke Tamil before and developed their own language. India's linguistic transitions were always complex. Tamilakam need not to have ruled over only Tamil regions. People, might have adopted Tamil because of that. Don't we know how much Astro-Asiatic and Dravidian languages got replaced elsewhere in India?
Of course, if a linguist proves that Dravidian languages in fact originated in the region of Tamil Nadu, none of my words make any sense. At present, it still has Northeren origins. Kerala might not have been inhabited until neolithic times but that was not the case with Karnataka and Tulu Nadu.
PS: A present genetic study(Sengupta et al.) says Dravidian languages might have their origins in South-West of India and that is again coastal Karnataka, including Tulu Nadu.
Manjunatha (21 Mar 2006)
Please remove that picture from the article as it seriosly violates the neutral point of view of the article Bharatveer 08:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
well. incidentally; the first pic was m a Baby of cpim now it is cm oommen chandy of cong. either way, i don't get the point in using politicians as models for illustrasting how a mund is worn; if kerala article must contain oc's photo, why should it say, "pic of a man from kerala". also no point in switching from pic to pic to make a political point; ie which poitician more adequately represents the common man (in this particular case of two, forgive me, neither!). i don't see the need for the pic at all. - Pournami 10:01, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Now that you are using the picture of Sri.Oomen Chandy , either label him properly as Hon.Chief Minister of Kerala or remove the picture altogether Bharatveer 05:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Got a pic of friend wearing mundu. Let me use that. Nowdays, is politician are the one only using mundu in Kerala:) Georsha 07:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Surely that is incorrect.. Can i remove that?? Bharatveer 06:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to remove it now Bharatveer 08:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed idli from the kerala cuisine as it is not an ethnic malayalee dish. also the qualifier spicy to sadhya as there are many dishes which does not come under the same.
Sree nath
I think it should be Malayalam calendar instead of Malayali Calendar. Bharatveer 10:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Pl join the discussion at [ Articles_for_deletion/Kerala_image_gallery] on deleting the image gallery attached to kerala Pratheepps
I think that the sentence [Virtually all of Kerala's 3.18 crore (31.8 million)[47] people are of Malayali Dravidian ethnicity.] should be remoulded.
Kerala society has arguably major Indo-Aryan elements in it including infusion of Indo-Aryan blood in a not-so-insignificant way and it is this fact that makes it possible to distinguish Malayalees from the Tamilians. It is also true in the case of Malayalam language which has 70 per cent infusion of Sankrit in it. Hence i think it is not an anomaly to think that the Malayalis have at least 30 per cent of Indo-Aryan blood in them.
So what i am driving at is the enthnic and racial classification of Malayalis is very difficult to titrate. So wouldnt it be better to tread through the topic rather delicately and desist from sweeping statements that would only satisfy the taste of a particular ethnocentric agrument.
User:Maabahuka 12:30 April 4, 2006
I don't understand how my friend Maabahuka came to the conclusion of 30% Indo -Aryan blood in Malayalis. As DNA studies have proved the B$hitness of The Aryan Invasion Theory ; the whole references to it should preferably be removed Bharatveer 08:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Bharatveer please go through what i have written carefully in the talk page. I am not subscribing to The Aryan Invsion Theory but i am bringing to your kind notice that there was a peaceful migration of Aryan population into Kerala (No historian is denying this fact). So why are you so reluctant to accomodate what even the historians have recorded.
User:Maabahuka 2:10 April 4, 2006.
my dear friend Maabahuka , you are just clinging on to the Aryan migration Theory (As per scholars, it is a modified version of AIT ). You should understand that In Indic culture , Arya was just a word literally meaning "Noble". All other racial connotations ascribed to it is the creation of european scholars of nineteenth century. Bharatveer 09:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Manjunatha (11 Apr 2006)
True it cannot be said that Kerala is solely Dravidian, however there is not much substance in an Aryan claim. There is a tendency for people to attribute Aryan descent for even slightly pale skin colour, such correlations are illusory.
The diversity in the people of kerala comes becomes of its unique position of being the centre of the pepper trade between the mediterranean world and the east, in ancient times, spanning for over three millennia.
Through this long spice trade, Kerala has had the settlements of Levantine Jews and Jewish-christians from Israel and around the mediterranean world. It also had extensive settlements of Arabs in the Malabar coast. Kerala indeed has a diversity of people in terms of racial origins but that is because of its overlooked and understated long semitic influence, which many people try hard to deny.
Besides, it is the syntactic structures of a language that determines its linguistic influence and language family. The syntactic structures Of Malayalam language is that of ancient tamil. Languages might Include loan words from any language and to any extent, still retaining its syntactic structures.
The earliest reference of brahmins in the malabar coast comes only from the 8th century CE, while mediterranean coins and other objects from the mediterranean world from several centuries earlier have been found in kerala.
(see this article from south Indian newspaper 'The Hindu':
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/coins.html
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mag/2003/08/17/stories/2003081700370800.htm )
The studies of
Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in
population genetics stresses the importance of studying genetic admixture and influence in terms of the proportion of world population. It is important to keep in mind that in population genetics, the estimated popualtion of the entire ancient world over two thousand years ago were few millions and not billions as today, while many nations and linguistic groups had populations in few thousands. Keeping that in mind one could realize the significant impact of the continious settlement and comixture of thousands of mediterranean-semitic people in the malabar coast.
Robin klein
08:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Saravask,
You asked what is to be done about semitic influence to the article kerala, just look at it with NPOV and you will know what is to be done, if people are not caught up in the web of nationalism.
the above author User:Maabahuka seems to imply that people in kerala looks different from the people in tamil nadu despite both being of largely dravidian descent, because kerala has a high comixture of aryan- sanskrit (brahmin) etc.
the medieval Cholas circe 840 CE invited the brahminical families like parthasarathy, chakravarthy (common bengali and tamil brahmin names) in the 9th century. They are now the Iyers and Iyengars. So there is a significant presence of brahmin-aryan influence (that is if you consider bengal as aryan which is another contention) in tamil nadu and that too more so than that of kerala. so the explanation that kerala people look different from tamil nadu people because of aryan-brahmin influence is inaccurate. because if both of them have brahminical influence they both should look similar, at least going by the premise of User:Maabahuka.
However the premise of User:Maabahuka fails to explain as to why kerala in the malabar coast is so diverse than the rest of south India. The explanation based on the fact of black pepper trade and ancient navigation between the mediterranean world and the malabar coast even a millenniuum before 9th century CE as mentioned in the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea explains quite logically why the malabar coast which saw trade with the mediterranean world for thousands of years and continious mediterranean-semitic influence of nasranis, cochini malabari yehuden, yehuda knanaya nasranis, mapilla, etc is indeed so amazingly diverse and distinct from the rest of south india. Robin klein 03:00, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Saravask,
The Cochin Jews or Malabari Yehuden are not the only source of semitic influence in kerala. The Nasranis are 5 million (according to the Indian census report of 2004) people in kerala (many of whom are descendants of levantine Jews and also local converts) thanks to the long pepper trade. Also the knanaya people belong to the same group of jews as the cochin jews called as Meyuhassim. The Knanaya are Jewish people who follow the christ, in kerala their population is over a quarter of a million. (according to the census report). The other source of semitic influence are the numerous Arabs that also settled and mixed with the local people in course of the pepper trade between the malabar coast and the mediterranean world. Combining the Nasranis, Cochin Jews, Knanaya and mapillas the total semitic-mediterranean influence today in kerala is in millions. Yet you have dismissed it as 30,000 by only taking the cochin jews. Also you assumed that Kerala's people are 25% aryan without any source. Robin klein 03:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Semitic influence... understated and over looked ....??? What next ?? my friend?? Bharatveer 09:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
That's true Robin Klein, Kerala is not solely Dravidian nor is its Semitic influence to be underplayed. But i think Maabahukka has made a pertinent point there. He has tried to acknowledge Kerala's Aryan influence without downplaying its predominantly Dravidian essence.
User: Mist_n_legend April 4, 2006
pls see Aryan_race Bharatveer
Manjunatha (11 Apr 2006)
The problem is the whole 'circular' argument going on about the NON EXISTENT ARYAN AND DRAVIDAN RACES.Even the proponents of the AIT theory now say that the "aryan dravidian " difference is not a Skin colour issue any more; they say it is a case of two different languages/ culture issue.Just wait for some more years for this dumb theory to go as well Bharatveer 17:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
കേരളം is written as Kēraḷaṁ. What is the standard used for this transliteration? The letter 'r' does not really represent a ര properly unless there is a separate symbol or letter for റ. -- Grammatical error 17:36, 6 April 2006
(UTC)
"Keralites, compared with most other Indians, are keen participants in the political process." This sentence have no factual basis and should be removed Bharatveer 18:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
According to a latest study, Proto Dravidian language was spoken first around Godavari basin. Therefore, the regions of Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka were speaking Dravidian languages before the region of Tamil Nadu. Tulu, Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam are part of South Dravidian-I(Telugu is part of South Dravidian-II). So when it comes to "Proto", we are not sure, the identity should be of Tamils. I have changed it to more NPOV Proto-South Dravidian. Please read this article discussing how the archaic nature of modern Tamil has led to its political construction of being the oldest.
Manjunatha (18 Apr 2006)
The following is copied from Talk:Thiruvananthapuram, as I believe it deserves wider attention. thunderboltza.k.a.D eepu Joseph | TALK 13:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I am talking about the cities of Thiruvananthapuram and Kochi. You must have noticed the areas of Trivandrum and Kochi. TVM is 184 sq KM and Cochin is 87.5 sq Km. These are considered as the city area.
In this city area TVM is having around 8.5 lakhs of population and Kochi is 6 lakhs. Some guys must have added the population of the near by municipalities with Kochi. If we do the same thing with TVM, it will have around 2.5 million populations
I will post the detailed information about the population in these two districts soon.
Also you must have noticed contradictory things in the cochin site Area 87.5 km² ,Density 10840/km² then how come a population of 1,660,000 is possible?
So we must help this site to show the truths, not as some promotions
Thanks,
Sathya
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sathyalal ( talk • contribs) 07:06, 20 April 2006.
Kochi corporation(city area) alone has got around 6 lakhs and some polititians carefully manipulated in some records by adding Thrippunithura,Kalamassery, Fort Kochi and Alway population to the same
If you do the same thing with TVM its population will be around 2.5 million. You have to understand the fact that there is more continuity of (except Varkala) the city to its municipal towns than that of Kochi with its muncipalities like Alway
So if we add just two municipalities(not even attingal) of TVM with corporation , population will be more than what cochin is projecting with 4 muncipal towns(1.6 million). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathyalal ( talk • contribs)
References in support of Cochin are more convincing. No point arguing excessively and editing without consensus. -- Raghu 15:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Sathyalal Guys should understand, neyyattinkara is having more population than thrippunithura, the proposed technocity area is nearear to attingal than TVM. Also imagine a situation where TVM population does not count technopark population, at the same time Cochin count Alway population. Alas! Think guys, who needs light? I have pointed how absurdly the calculation is made with specified pop dencity. I think, this has to do nothing with convincing.They do not want to get convinced.
The guys who removed the state capital from the map, added their city ref in TVM site and removed so many facts from TVM site is still trying to pretend. They do not want to believe Kerala gov site http://www.kerala.gov.in/dept_municipal/details.htm or http://www.cyberjournalist.org.in/towns.html
We can understand the sick minds of people who removed tvm from India map. Please see what the national sites(railways &airports) say
FACILITIES OF TOP CITIES http://www.southernrailway.org/city/facility.asp, they consider only tvm from the state.
CHENNAI ,MUMBAI ,PUNE ,NEW DELHI ,HYDERABAD ,KOLKATA ,BANGLORE ,TRIVANDRUM
Also look at http://www.airportsindia.org.in/aai/airports-frame.htm
Forget the soap box thingy, people are going to dispute you vociferously, if you provoke them at the level you did. And dont trash other free forums in the web. Doesn't matter where we, who are disputing you, got the message from (and I did not get it from SSC, though I visit that site), but we came to know this whole charade that you seem to be orchestrating and it is not going to go unchallenged, for wikipedia is used as a reference by a lot of people and what you are trying to promote subtly is an untruth Harig 02:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Dear Deepu, cool down. Got who you are and got why you are not convinced about the fact(How a city with 60 members in the corporation is smaller than that of 86)you guys only carefully manipulating the facts. Who has updated the map to the site? Do not try to fool the people. All political map(gov approved) includes the capital and also all the gov sites are having Thiruvananthapuram with more prominence( I have posted railways/ airports). I have to say the same thing. This is not a soap box, but fact box. So we will all put the facts there. Whatever it be. Other wise no body is gaining. Only the state is loosing. So be realistic. We can put all the facts there, what I say is the mix from all the sources.
Dear Deepu,you are not conviced because you are from kochi and promoting the place(from your page).But nothing wrong in promoting it.
I was willing to leave this issue, if justice was in your side. But fact is with me.The link you provided, it is the population of Urban Agglomeration. What we are debating is the city. ie 'largest city' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathyalal ( talk • contribs)
Maybe You can modify the sentence as "Kochi is the largest city in terms of Population ".That would remove the ambiguity of the sentence Bharatveer 14:24, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I've briefly skimmed through the above text, and as a longtime city-related editor this is how I would define as "largest" city.
=Nichalp «Talk»= 18:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Comment Because of the fact that there is a difference between the largest city and largest urban agglomeration in Kerala, both should be appropriately represented. I have added a conditional variable in template Infobox State IN to accomodate largest urban area. Also, the convention thus far on Wikipedia is to reference World Gazetteer ( http://www.worldgazetteer.com) for references to city/UA populations since the website also provides calculated 2006 figures, while the Indian census figures are only as of 2001. AreJay 19:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Kochi is the largest city in Kerala
Trivandrum corporation boundaries are regularly expanded to reach 194 sqkm, while Kochi stays at 94 sqkm for decades. This is only a technical limit. This shows that many areas inside Trivandrum corporation are not urban areas. This is reflected in the population density of Tvm corporation being 3500/sqkm while that of Kochi is 6500/sqkm. Census machinery knows this manipulation.
Moreover, to expand Corporation PANCHAYATS are added to it. This means they have not even become MUNICIPALITIES. How can villages be added to a city. Tripunitra, Kalamassery, Trikkakkara and Eloor are municipal with population wise. To avoid increase in taxes the latter two named as "town panchayats". This means Kochi has hardly any panchayats on its large boundary. (Every time corporation boundaries are expanded, vested interests scuttle it by screaming out against increase in taxes. Trikkakkara panchayat (which include realty pie of Kakkanad)today have more skyscrapers than the whole of Trivandrum city. Still they want to remain a panchayats to evade taxes, ie, some vested interests think that they must get all the facilities of urban area without paying taxes.)
This is why Kochi is the largest city and rightly counted so by census. Under JNNURM, Kochi is the ONLY city to be selected under million plus category from Kerala. Trivandrum is selected for its capital status. This is clearly stated by Kerala Local Admin. Dept. How else did the largest "city" have such a low population density and smaller urban agglomeration around it ??
So there is a capital fudging done to make Trivandrum the largest corporation.
Summary : Kochi is the largest city of Kerala. Trivandrum is the largest municipal corporation of Kerala.
- User:Alniko aka Nik aka Nikolas
Dear Alniko aka Nik aka Nikolas,
Wikipedia is a fact box. It is an encyclopedia. I understood your arguments. Kochi is larger than Thiruvananthapuram when the UA ( Urban Agglomeration) is considered.
The larger city is defined by the area and population (not by the density).
Please look at the facts below :
Total Area of Trivandrum city : 194 sq.km
Total Area of Kochi city : 94 sq.km
Population of Trivandrum city : 745,000
Population of Kochi city : 650,000
Remember, these statitics are about the so-called CITY, defined by the Government of Kerala. The city is being administered by the Corporation. You can see these facts about Kochi in the
city site.
It was a move by the GoK, in 1999, to submit the UA details of Kochi to the Census of India, to claim for the funds from the Central Government, which will be only given to million plus cities.
Whether villages are added to the Tvm city or not, it was done by the Government of Kerala, and hence we had to reflect that accordingly. And thus technically, the city is 194 sq.km. big.
As long as, this is not done with city of Kochi, we cannot reflect that here.
The JNURM fund is for all million plus cities and UAs in India; not only for the cities alone. And regarding your statement, " there is a capital fudging done to make Trivandrum the largest corporation. "; whether this is correct or not, we are forced to follow the techincal details.
Afterall, the page, 'Kochi' is about the city of
Kochi, not about the
Urban Agglomeration of Kochi.
You can paste your details in the
Kochi UA.
Hope you will coporate with us.
Cheers...
-From Samaleks, Talk -- Samaleks 08:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Largest Corporation can be concocted
But largest city as defined by census cannot be. It counts urban area defined by inhabitation, not by the boundaries political parties change to suit their needs. Kochi has a vast urban area surrounding it. That is, even in if Kochi corporation expands to 150 sqkm, it will have more population than Trivandrum with its 194 sqkm. Political parties try to gerrymander boundaries, for example CPM tries to add more panchayats to Trivandrum (mind you, panchayats not even municipalities !!) Congress opposes this as it will affect them adversely in terms of electoral politics. But Congress-ruled Kalamassery regularly opposes its merger with Kochi, claiming that it will lead to increase in taxes (real reason is that they will lose hold over the power). This is a omnipresent phenomena. This is why census people have differentiated between urban area and corporation limits. Former is technical - decided by population density while latter is decided by manipulation. Hence when we talk of a city, we talk about technical term not the political administrative set up.
Hi
Alniko aka Nik aka Nikolas,
Please sign up here when you are making some entries, using your user_name and user_talk with the date/time stamp.
And please understand that wikipedia is not a soapbox (
WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox) to advertise your feelings (passion for your city and hatred for the other).
I can judge you from the messages by you to a soap box (skyscrapercity) and your blogs related to Cochin (cochinmasala, voxcochin, etc). I can make out how much hatred you are carrying to your neighbouring city. I got to know about your aggressive passion for Kochi. I can understand your colour-blinded prejuidice. But Wikipedia is not the stage for you. See, how many times you vandalised the pages of both
[6]Thiruvananthapuram(history) and
[7]Kochi(history).
You have been editing from the IP addresses :203.199.213.66 and 203.199.213.67 (from Chennai using the ISP of VSNL) and also using your user id
Alniko (which is also from the same IP-further the editions were also the same).
There are certain norms for the editing in Wikipedia.
" Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about yourself, your friends, your company or products; or articles written as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, may be deleted in accordance with our
deletion policies." For more information, see
Wikipedia:Spam.
Also read
Wikipedia:Five_pillars
You can be even blocked, if you are not complying to the norms.
--
Samaleks
12:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Hate for Trivandrum
The attitude is not good from some guys driven by hate. They derive some happiness in tarnishing Thiruvananthapuram sites. We have already discussed this issue and settled during the previous talks.
In Kerala Thiruvananthapuram is the largest city corporation with around 8.5 lakhs population and 86 corporation wards. Cochin is smaller with 6.5 lakhs(60 wards)
Thiruvananthapuram is the largest city in area too.
But cochin has formed a conglomerate mainly supported by political needs and has added population of near by towns like Thrippunithura,Kalamasseri , Alway, Fort Kochi etc. If you do the same thing for Trivandrum it is much bigger in Area(as it is currently) and population. Last time we have agreed to add those things separately in Kerala page to avoid ambiguities. This discussion is there in Kerala discussion--Kerala. So please do not try to create hate here don’t try to fish in muddy waters.
--
Sathyalal
Talk
11:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Chakara is pretty unique to Kerala (S America being the only other place where it is observed). Perhaps we should add some detail about it in the article? -- thunderboltza.k.a.D eepu Joseph | TALK
I suppose the same phenomenon in Coastal Karnataka(Tulu regions) is known as Palke. However, I read it long back and not very sure about the exact name(but sure about the phenomenon). I will try to get it confirmed and also if anybody aware of that here please let me know. Thanks.
Manjunatha (7 May 2006)
I have deleted the vandalised portion from the history. Bharatveer 17:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
With all due respects to the contributors let me convey my feeling that the main article about Kerala is getting cluttered with too much details about history all crammed into one page. Why not redirect some of these topics into 'Topics Related to Kerala' and lessen the clutter felt in this fine page of ours which had even been featured in the Featured articles list. Let me take a few seconds to congragulate the efforts of a long time contributor Saravask along with many others whose efforts had much helped to take this article to the Featured article list. Thanks. ( Maabahuka 06:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC))
with regard to constant removal of passages with citations relating to syrian nsaranis by people including Maabahuka: One cannot remove passages with cites and references under the pretext of the page increasing in size or being cluttered. removing passages with references is vandalism. Robin klein 08:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Robin Klein do not use words like vandalism and so on out of context. I have innumerable citations to quote to prove the contrary of what you are saying but i known showing a citation will not become an endorsement to an issue which has no historical backing. There is not even proof that Jews have settled in Kerala prior to the 400 C.E. at the time of Knai Thomman. So i feel it would be appropriate to paint a neutral picture of the issue about the Syrian christian community of Kerala. On the other hand what you are doing is typical of spin doctoring. Pleaseee end your jewish fixation as is evidenced from your talk in the Kerala Talk page previously and let us put the facts across the page in a neutral and objective way. Here i am asking the view of others in this matter. please respond. ( Maabahuka 08:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC))
Mr Maabahuka you have been deleting passages with references and that is the typical work of a spin doctor. Your deletion shows your brahmin fixation. Robin klein 15:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC) _______________________________________________________ Both of them might be having fixations jewish/brahmin but there is reason for the protests of Maabahukka. First of all there is no referance anywhere about "Brown Jews" as Robin Klien says. Maybe he is referring to "black Jews" see: Jewish Encyclopida.com http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=558&letter=C
Even if Robin Klein is speaking about Black jews, they were not in Kerala in the 1st century A.D. So the talks about the brown jews or black jews and St. Thomas coming to convert them are all cock and bull stories and unencyclopedic. So understand why i am deliting the folklore portion. Why not add the folklores in a separate section titled Folklores of Kerala. ( Bluubyrd 09:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC))
I have provided references and citations by Jewish scholars for the arrival of Black\brown Jews to kerala long before the first century CE, and the arrival of st thomas to Kerala for proselytizing the Jewish settlements Robin klein 06:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
"Khair" in arabic means fine/ good and that makes it allah's care and not allah's own country. Besides it is improper to add the personal opinion of a fundamentalist politician in this article. Bharatveer 04:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
There was a {{ inote}} in the lead for the article which I have stripped out as it meant that a backlink from the citations wasn't working. I generally disagree with the use of inote - it was meant as an alternative to using bulky reference and citation templates, until mediawiki produced an "official" referencing system. We now have cite.php so inote's original purpose is no longer relevant. Of course, the reason that inote was being used in the lead is that, as a general rule, lead sections shouldn't have references. However, this merely stems from a more important rule - the lead should be a summary of the article; any claims raised in the lead should be examined in greater depth later and it is there that appropriate citations should be made. What appears to be being referenced (though I lack access to the source so can't tell what the scope of the citation is meant to be) is the statistical impact of Kerala's social reforms, which is extensively covered in the "Demographics" section (though peculiarly not to the same source as given in the lead!). I will leave this to be dealt with by those who have access to the sources - my suggestion is simply "please don't {{ inote}} references", and if you don't actually want a citation to appear in the lead, just put the citation where the relevant material is covered again? TheGrappler 11:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Infobox states largest city is tiruvanantapuram while largest metro is Kochi. So Kochi is a metro that is smaller than a city? and Tiruvanantapuram is not a metro despite being a city that is larger than another metro? How is that?-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 09:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I think Kerala is a wrong and corrupted english translation of Keralam, So why should the English name of Keralam be 'Kerala' and not 'Keralam'?, 'Kerala' is almost meaning-less in malayalam ,and is never used while speaking in malayalam.
Another point is 'Malayali' or 'Keralite?' I think Keralite is an ugly and contrived word, and should not be used , in such an article of truth.
user:Slime_mould (9:27 pm , 6 June 2006 (IST))
Crewcut 14:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC) 05:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
We need a separate section on Tourism as it is so critical to the state. The kanataka page has a tourism section Crewcut 14 June 2006 (UTC)
09:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Keralam being the lands of kera is not the prevailing theory, it is just a vulgar (popular)assumption. Historically it very often attributed to Chera Dynasty that ruled over parts of Kerala. Cruxit 17:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the name: 'alam' means valley, certainly not "place" (that would be 'aalayam'). Keralam almost certainly did not come from the words meaning "a place of coconuts!" Most certainly it refers to an old king called Keralaputra. I think the buck stops there - it is not necessary to delve into the etymology of THAT name, so... zeinab 19:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Lakeshore hospital photo is pure advertorial. It needs to be removed. Cruxit 18:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this discussion is wandering... the lakeshore pic is inappropriate. Lake Shore represents a hospital that is inaccessible to all but the elite of Kochi, let alone Kerala. Secondly, the picture is almost a dressed-up thumbnail, probably converted from a gif. It doesn't have the look and feel of a journalist photo (which it isn't). Instead, it shows exactly what it is: it belongs in an advert brochure.--zeinab 19:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the pics, wouldn't it be better if you could simply remove the (repeated) references to Marayoor? Those are all great pics and they are all of Marayoor... But to someone casually looking, Marayoor would seem to be the only spot worth seeing! Instead, one could just say "Idukki". I think Marayoor is representative of a whole lot of scenic places in Idukki...--zeinab 19:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
This page is becoming a bit too long. It is currently 76 kbs - the bulk of which must be caused by the references. But nonetheless, it is very much higher than the wikipedia prescribed page size. I think we need to seriously think about trimming it up, and add all new/semi-relavent data to the sub pages. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D eepu Joseph | TALK 13:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
"Feudal Nair-Namboothiri Brahminical city-states," What nonsense is that? Namboothiris are brahmins, no need to tell them apart. Savemalayalam 20:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
"To its east and northeast, Kerala borders Tamil Nadu and Karnataka;" The wording is clumsy because there is no balance. As such the cluase gives prominence to TN and Kar. Passive voice would shift the emphasis back to Kerala; "Kerala is bordered by... I would prefer re-writing with the verb adjoin. Savemalayalam 20:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
The revert was totally unwarranted and inappropriate. I suppose the guy who did that would see sense and restore the polemic on a very important point of history. Savemalayalam 16:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I checked your user page. You will be the last one I should be harsh towards. But I would like to mention one thing. Real things happen when you put the rules under strain rather than abide by them in a book-kissing manner. The difference between the former and the latter is simply that between conformism or smugness on the one hand and battering, bettering I mean, on the other. Savemalayalam 05:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
[ [8]] See the article on Kallayi. Should a person totally unfamiliar with the subject matter write an article on that? To write that Kallayi is on river Chaliyar is one of the baddest thing a user can do on Wiki because it is a blunder. Kallayi is on Kallayi river, a very small river that runs only about 22 kilometres. To confuse it with Chaliyar, which is a major river in Kerala, is unpardonable. Those who have not even a smattering of the suject matter should desist from creating articles. Savemalayalam 17:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
The article chenda [ [9]]has too many blunders I suppose. I believe that it does not accompany kootiyattam (no d for t for me). It is not "suspended from drummer's neck" except in reare occasions, I think. It does not "hang vertically" most often. It has no parchment. The users need to be aware of the threat to quality from inept editing and creation. Savemalayalam 04:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Please note that one article titled Running Amok had an extremely misguiding argument related to a particular episode in Kerala history. It seems that the erroneous part was kept for quite some time and diffused into a few other articles until this user removed it through mere deletion. The misguiding argument is actually a blunder and you can see it below in a part excerpted from zamorin and deleted from there by this user since.
"The Samoothiris had an interesting tradition which dictated that every Samoothiri who ruled over twelve years would have to publicly cut his throat. In the 17th century, this tradition was modified and led to an annual event where the Samoothiri declared that after an annual 12-day festival (Mamankam festival), it was lawful for anyone wishing, to try to assassinate him. The Samoothiri would be seated in a national assembly, surrounded by guards. This revised tradition led to the development of suicide squads, called chaver, by neighbouring states (particularly Valluvakkonathiri ) with the objective of killing the Samoothiri."
Anyone with a smattering of Kerala history will at once know that this is not history. No zamorin is ever recorded to have killed himself thus. There is no such custom in the collective conscousness of the local people, not even in the form of a far-fetched myth. This user doesn't know if Alexander Hamilton, cited to prop this falsity in the original article mentioned earlier, recorded such a custom at all. Even if he has, I can positively state (after consulting two historians) that the argument is false. I would also like to point out that non-native accounts of Kerala history should be considered with a fair amount of skepticism. In Encylopedia Britannica zamorin has been referred to as a Muslim prince under the article Cabral. (Mark the irony;Zamorins are known to have betrayed Muslim chieftains to foreigners.) The blunder has been sustained over decades. Savemalayalam 05:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I found the page Kerala Tourism at WP:DEAD and while looking for a place to merge first thought Kerala#Economy would be the logical target before I found Tourism in Kerala, basically by accident. If tourism is of economic or cultural importance in the state giving it a section or mention in a section heading might be a good idea. Eluchil404 20:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It's really misleading to say only Nairs were matrilineal in Kerala society along with muslims in Malabar(also in Lakshadweep). In fact, majority of the castes were/are matrilineal in Malabar, including Payyannor Namboothiris. In fact, matrilineality is not even unique to Kerala society in South India. Tuluvas were also matrilineal. And terming all Tiyyas as patriarchal is totally wrong as many of them were matrilineal(I suppose even in South Kerala).
Manjunatha (16 Mar 2006)
Probably, sentence should be rephrased or a new section should be added to give the present and past situation. I suppose, matrilineality is mostly dying out. Malabar in the article could be misleading. It should be, many Hindus throughout Kerala practiced matrilineal system. I suppose, historians even talk about matrilineal system in Travancore.
Manjunatha (21 Mar 2006)
Manjunatha (21 Mar 2006)
I'm not sure of how many of you aware of Tulu people and their culture. Were there no studies dealing with Malayalee-Tulu connection? I'm from Mangalore and for me Tulu, Malayalee cultural connection is striking. Be it matrilineal system, spirit worship( Theyyam in Malabar and Nema in Tulu Nadu).
Probably, because of linguistic studies it's felt that Malayalees were infact Tamils before. However, we have to see that Tulu or Proto-Tulu branches out of South Dravidian language along with Proto-Tamil-Kannada(supposed to Proto-Tamil here). Please find the reference here. In my opinion a big chunk of Malabar Malayalees might have Proto-Tulu origins. Probably, Proto-Tamil origins dominates in South(As far as I know, Theyyam is restricted to Malabar region).
Well, it's bit naive to think Malayalees spoke Tamil before and developed their own language. India's linguistic transitions were always complex. Tamilakam need not to have ruled over only Tamil regions. People, might have adopted Tamil because of that. Don't we know how much Astro-Asiatic and Dravidian languages got replaced elsewhere in India?
Of course, if a linguist proves that Dravidian languages in fact originated in the region of Tamil Nadu, none of my words make any sense. At present, it still has Northeren origins. Kerala might not have been inhabited until neolithic times but that was not the case with Karnataka and Tulu Nadu.
PS: A present genetic study(Sengupta et al.) says Dravidian languages might have their origins in South-West of India and that is again coastal Karnataka, including Tulu Nadu.
Manjunatha (21 Mar 2006)
Please remove that picture from the article as it seriosly violates the neutral point of view of the article Bharatveer 08:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
well. incidentally; the first pic was m a Baby of cpim now it is cm oommen chandy of cong. either way, i don't get the point in using politicians as models for illustrasting how a mund is worn; if kerala article must contain oc's photo, why should it say, "pic of a man from kerala". also no point in switching from pic to pic to make a political point; ie which poitician more adequately represents the common man (in this particular case of two, forgive me, neither!). i don't see the need for the pic at all. - Pournami 10:01, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Now that you are using the picture of Sri.Oomen Chandy , either label him properly as Hon.Chief Minister of Kerala or remove the picture altogether Bharatveer 05:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Got a pic of friend wearing mundu. Let me use that. Nowdays, is politician are the one only using mundu in Kerala:) Georsha 07:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Surely that is incorrect.. Can i remove that?? Bharatveer 06:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I am going to remove it now Bharatveer 08:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed idli from the kerala cuisine as it is not an ethnic malayalee dish. also the qualifier spicy to sadhya as there are many dishes which does not come under the same.
Sree nath
I think it should be Malayalam calendar instead of Malayali Calendar. Bharatveer 10:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Pl join the discussion at [ Articles_for_deletion/Kerala_image_gallery] on deleting the image gallery attached to kerala Pratheepps
I think that the sentence [Virtually all of Kerala's 3.18 crore (31.8 million)[47] people are of Malayali Dravidian ethnicity.] should be remoulded.
Kerala society has arguably major Indo-Aryan elements in it including infusion of Indo-Aryan blood in a not-so-insignificant way and it is this fact that makes it possible to distinguish Malayalees from the Tamilians. It is also true in the case of Malayalam language which has 70 per cent infusion of Sankrit in it. Hence i think it is not an anomaly to think that the Malayalis have at least 30 per cent of Indo-Aryan blood in them.
So what i am driving at is the enthnic and racial classification of Malayalis is very difficult to titrate. So wouldnt it be better to tread through the topic rather delicately and desist from sweeping statements that would only satisfy the taste of a particular ethnocentric agrument.
User:Maabahuka 12:30 April 4, 2006
I don't understand how my friend Maabahuka came to the conclusion of 30% Indo -Aryan blood in Malayalis. As DNA studies have proved the B$hitness of The Aryan Invasion Theory ; the whole references to it should preferably be removed Bharatveer 08:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Bharatveer please go through what i have written carefully in the talk page. I am not subscribing to The Aryan Invsion Theory but i am bringing to your kind notice that there was a peaceful migration of Aryan population into Kerala (No historian is denying this fact). So why are you so reluctant to accomodate what even the historians have recorded.
User:Maabahuka 2:10 April 4, 2006.
my dear friend Maabahuka , you are just clinging on to the Aryan migration Theory (As per scholars, it is a modified version of AIT ). You should understand that In Indic culture , Arya was just a word literally meaning "Noble". All other racial connotations ascribed to it is the creation of european scholars of nineteenth century. Bharatveer 09:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Manjunatha (11 Apr 2006)
True it cannot be said that Kerala is solely Dravidian, however there is not much substance in an Aryan claim. There is a tendency for people to attribute Aryan descent for even slightly pale skin colour, such correlations are illusory.
The diversity in the people of kerala comes becomes of its unique position of being the centre of the pepper trade between the mediterranean world and the east, in ancient times, spanning for over three millennia.
Through this long spice trade, Kerala has had the settlements of Levantine Jews and Jewish-christians from Israel and around the mediterranean world. It also had extensive settlements of Arabs in the Malabar coast. Kerala indeed has a diversity of people in terms of racial origins but that is because of its overlooked and understated long semitic influence, which many people try hard to deny.
Besides, it is the syntactic structures of a language that determines its linguistic influence and language family. The syntactic structures Of Malayalam language is that of ancient tamil. Languages might Include loan words from any language and to any extent, still retaining its syntactic structures.
The earliest reference of brahmins in the malabar coast comes only from the 8th century CE, while mediterranean coins and other objects from the mediterranean world from several centuries earlier have been found in kerala.
(see this article from south Indian newspaper 'The Hindu':
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/coins.html
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mag/2003/08/17/stories/2003081700370800.htm )
The studies of
Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in
population genetics stresses the importance of studying genetic admixture and influence in terms of the proportion of world population. It is important to keep in mind that in population genetics, the estimated popualtion of the entire ancient world over two thousand years ago were few millions and not billions as today, while many nations and linguistic groups had populations in few thousands. Keeping that in mind one could realize the significant impact of the continious settlement and comixture of thousands of mediterranean-semitic people in the malabar coast.
Robin klein
08:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Saravask,
You asked what is to be done about semitic influence to the article kerala, just look at it with NPOV and you will know what is to be done, if people are not caught up in the web of nationalism.
the above author User:Maabahuka seems to imply that people in kerala looks different from the people in tamil nadu despite both being of largely dravidian descent, because kerala has a high comixture of aryan- sanskrit (brahmin) etc.
the medieval Cholas circe 840 CE invited the brahminical families like parthasarathy, chakravarthy (common bengali and tamil brahmin names) in the 9th century. They are now the Iyers and Iyengars. So there is a significant presence of brahmin-aryan influence (that is if you consider bengal as aryan which is another contention) in tamil nadu and that too more so than that of kerala. so the explanation that kerala people look different from tamil nadu people because of aryan-brahmin influence is inaccurate. because if both of them have brahminical influence they both should look similar, at least going by the premise of User:Maabahuka.
However the premise of User:Maabahuka fails to explain as to why kerala in the malabar coast is so diverse than the rest of south India. The explanation based on the fact of black pepper trade and ancient navigation between the mediterranean world and the malabar coast even a millenniuum before 9th century CE as mentioned in the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea explains quite logically why the malabar coast which saw trade with the mediterranean world for thousands of years and continious mediterranean-semitic influence of nasranis, cochini malabari yehuden, yehuda knanaya nasranis, mapilla, etc is indeed so amazingly diverse and distinct from the rest of south india. Robin klein 03:00, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Saravask,
The Cochin Jews or Malabari Yehuden are not the only source of semitic influence in kerala. The Nasranis are 5 million (according to the Indian census report of 2004) people in kerala (many of whom are descendants of levantine Jews and also local converts) thanks to the long pepper trade. Also the knanaya people belong to the same group of jews as the cochin jews called as Meyuhassim. The Knanaya are Jewish people who follow the christ, in kerala their population is over a quarter of a million. (according to the census report). The other source of semitic influence are the numerous Arabs that also settled and mixed with the local people in course of the pepper trade between the malabar coast and the mediterranean world. Combining the Nasranis, Cochin Jews, Knanaya and mapillas the total semitic-mediterranean influence today in kerala is in millions. Yet you have dismissed it as 30,000 by only taking the cochin jews. Also you assumed that Kerala's people are 25% aryan without any source. Robin klein 03:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Semitic influence... understated and over looked ....??? What next ?? my friend?? Bharatveer 09:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
That's true Robin Klein, Kerala is not solely Dravidian nor is its Semitic influence to be underplayed. But i think Maabahukka has made a pertinent point there. He has tried to acknowledge Kerala's Aryan influence without downplaying its predominantly Dravidian essence.
User: Mist_n_legend April 4, 2006
pls see Aryan_race Bharatveer
Manjunatha (11 Apr 2006)
The problem is the whole 'circular' argument going on about the NON EXISTENT ARYAN AND DRAVIDAN RACES.Even the proponents of the AIT theory now say that the "aryan dravidian " difference is not a Skin colour issue any more; they say it is a case of two different languages/ culture issue.Just wait for some more years for this dumb theory to go as well Bharatveer 17:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
കേരളം is written as Kēraḷaṁ. What is the standard used for this transliteration? The letter 'r' does not really represent a ര properly unless there is a separate symbol or letter for റ. -- Grammatical error 17:36, 6 April 2006
(UTC)
"Keralites, compared with most other Indians, are keen participants in the political process." This sentence have no factual basis and should be removed Bharatveer 18:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
According to a latest study, Proto Dravidian language was spoken first around Godavari basin. Therefore, the regions of Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka were speaking Dravidian languages before the region of Tamil Nadu. Tulu, Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam are part of South Dravidian-I(Telugu is part of South Dravidian-II). So when it comes to "Proto", we are not sure, the identity should be of Tamils. I have changed it to more NPOV Proto-South Dravidian. Please read this article discussing how the archaic nature of modern Tamil has led to its political construction of being the oldest.
Manjunatha (18 Apr 2006)
The following is copied from Talk:Thiruvananthapuram, as I believe it deserves wider attention. thunderboltza.k.a.D eepu Joseph | TALK 13:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I am talking about the cities of Thiruvananthapuram and Kochi. You must have noticed the areas of Trivandrum and Kochi. TVM is 184 sq KM and Cochin is 87.5 sq Km. These are considered as the city area.
In this city area TVM is having around 8.5 lakhs of population and Kochi is 6 lakhs. Some guys must have added the population of the near by municipalities with Kochi. If we do the same thing with TVM, it will have around 2.5 million populations
I will post the detailed information about the population in these two districts soon.
Also you must have noticed contradictory things in the cochin site Area 87.5 km² ,Density 10840/km² then how come a population of 1,660,000 is possible?
So we must help this site to show the truths, not as some promotions
Thanks,
Sathya
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sathyalal ( talk • contribs) 07:06, 20 April 2006.
Kochi corporation(city area) alone has got around 6 lakhs and some polititians carefully manipulated in some records by adding Thrippunithura,Kalamassery, Fort Kochi and Alway population to the same
If you do the same thing with TVM its population will be around 2.5 million. You have to understand the fact that there is more continuity of (except Varkala) the city to its municipal towns than that of Kochi with its muncipalities like Alway
So if we add just two municipalities(not even attingal) of TVM with corporation , population will be more than what cochin is projecting with 4 muncipal towns(1.6 million). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathyalal ( talk • contribs)
References in support of Cochin are more convincing. No point arguing excessively and editing without consensus. -- Raghu 15:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Sathyalal Guys should understand, neyyattinkara is having more population than thrippunithura, the proposed technocity area is nearear to attingal than TVM. Also imagine a situation where TVM population does not count technopark population, at the same time Cochin count Alway population. Alas! Think guys, who needs light? I have pointed how absurdly the calculation is made with specified pop dencity. I think, this has to do nothing with convincing.They do not want to get convinced.
The guys who removed the state capital from the map, added their city ref in TVM site and removed so many facts from TVM site is still trying to pretend. They do not want to believe Kerala gov site http://www.kerala.gov.in/dept_municipal/details.htm or http://www.cyberjournalist.org.in/towns.html
We can understand the sick minds of people who removed tvm from India map. Please see what the national sites(railways &airports) say
FACILITIES OF TOP CITIES http://www.southernrailway.org/city/facility.asp, they consider only tvm from the state.
CHENNAI ,MUMBAI ,PUNE ,NEW DELHI ,HYDERABAD ,KOLKATA ,BANGLORE ,TRIVANDRUM
Also look at http://www.airportsindia.org.in/aai/airports-frame.htm
Forget the soap box thingy, people are going to dispute you vociferously, if you provoke them at the level you did. And dont trash other free forums in the web. Doesn't matter where we, who are disputing you, got the message from (and I did not get it from SSC, though I visit that site), but we came to know this whole charade that you seem to be orchestrating and it is not going to go unchallenged, for wikipedia is used as a reference by a lot of people and what you are trying to promote subtly is an untruth Harig 02:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Dear Deepu, cool down. Got who you are and got why you are not convinced about the fact(How a city with 60 members in the corporation is smaller than that of 86)you guys only carefully manipulating the facts. Who has updated the map to the site? Do not try to fool the people. All political map(gov approved) includes the capital and also all the gov sites are having Thiruvananthapuram with more prominence( I have posted railways/ airports). I have to say the same thing. This is not a soap box, but fact box. So we will all put the facts there. Whatever it be. Other wise no body is gaining. Only the state is loosing. So be realistic. We can put all the facts there, what I say is the mix from all the sources.
Dear Deepu,you are not conviced because you are from kochi and promoting the place(from your page).But nothing wrong in promoting it.
I was willing to leave this issue, if justice was in your side. But fact is with me.The link you provided, it is the population of Urban Agglomeration. What we are debating is the city. ie 'largest city' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathyalal ( talk • contribs)
Maybe You can modify the sentence as "Kochi is the largest city in terms of Population ".That would remove the ambiguity of the sentence Bharatveer 14:24, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I've briefly skimmed through the above text, and as a longtime city-related editor this is how I would define as "largest" city.
=Nichalp «Talk»= 18:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Comment Because of the fact that there is a difference between the largest city and largest urban agglomeration in Kerala, both should be appropriately represented. I have added a conditional variable in template Infobox State IN to accomodate largest urban area. Also, the convention thus far on Wikipedia is to reference World Gazetteer ( http://www.worldgazetteer.com) for references to city/UA populations since the website also provides calculated 2006 figures, while the Indian census figures are only as of 2001. AreJay 19:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Kochi is the largest city in Kerala
Trivandrum corporation boundaries are regularly expanded to reach 194 sqkm, while Kochi stays at 94 sqkm for decades. This is only a technical limit. This shows that many areas inside Trivandrum corporation are not urban areas. This is reflected in the population density of Tvm corporation being 3500/sqkm while that of Kochi is 6500/sqkm. Census machinery knows this manipulation.
Moreover, to expand Corporation PANCHAYATS are added to it. This means they have not even become MUNICIPALITIES. How can villages be added to a city. Tripunitra, Kalamassery, Trikkakkara and Eloor are municipal with population wise. To avoid increase in taxes the latter two named as "town panchayats". This means Kochi has hardly any panchayats on its large boundary. (Every time corporation boundaries are expanded, vested interests scuttle it by screaming out against increase in taxes. Trikkakkara panchayat (which include realty pie of Kakkanad)today have more skyscrapers than the whole of Trivandrum city. Still they want to remain a panchayats to evade taxes, ie, some vested interests think that they must get all the facilities of urban area without paying taxes.)
This is why Kochi is the largest city and rightly counted so by census. Under JNNURM, Kochi is the ONLY city to be selected under million plus category from Kerala. Trivandrum is selected for its capital status. This is clearly stated by Kerala Local Admin. Dept. How else did the largest "city" have such a low population density and smaller urban agglomeration around it ??
So there is a capital fudging done to make Trivandrum the largest corporation.
Summary : Kochi is the largest city of Kerala. Trivandrum is the largest municipal corporation of Kerala.
- User:Alniko aka Nik aka Nikolas
Dear Alniko aka Nik aka Nikolas,
Wikipedia is a fact box. It is an encyclopedia. I understood your arguments. Kochi is larger than Thiruvananthapuram when the UA ( Urban Agglomeration) is considered.
The larger city is defined by the area and population (not by the density).
Please look at the facts below :
Total Area of Trivandrum city : 194 sq.km
Total Area of Kochi city : 94 sq.km
Population of Trivandrum city : 745,000
Population of Kochi city : 650,000
Remember, these statitics are about the so-called CITY, defined by the Government of Kerala. The city is being administered by the Corporation. You can see these facts about Kochi in the
city site.
It was a move by the GoK, in 1999, to submit the UA details of Kochi to the Census of India, to claim for the funds from the Central Government, which will be only given to million plus cities.
Whether villages are added to the Tvm city or not, it was done by the Government of Kerala, and hence we had to reflect that accordingly. And thus technically, the city is 194 sq.km. big.
As long as, this is not done with city of Kochi, we cannot reflect that here.
The JNURM fund is for all million plus cities and UAs in India; not only for the cities alone. And regarding your statement, " there is a capital fudging done to make Trivandrum the largest corporation. "; whether this is correct or not, we are forced to follow the techincal details.
Afterall, the page, 'Kochi' is about the city of
Kochi, not about the
Urban Agglomeration of Kochi.
You can paste your details in the
Kochi UA.
Hope you will coporate with us.
Cheers...
-From Samaleks, Talk -- Samaleks 08:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Largest Corporation can be concocted
But largest city as defined by census cannot be. It counts urban area defined by inhabitation, not by the boundaries political parties change to suit their needs. Kochi has a vast urban area surrounding it. That is, even in if Kochi corporation expands to 150 sqkm, it will have more population than Trivandrum with its 194 sqkm. Political parties try to gerrymander boundaries, for example CPM tries to add more panchayats to Trivandrum (mind you, panchayats not even municipalities !!) Congress opposes this as it will affect them adversely in terms of electoral politics. But Congress-ruled Kalamassery regularly opposes its merger with Kochi, claiming that it will lead to increase in taxes (real reason is that they will lose hold over the power). This is a omnipresent phenomena. This is why census people have differentiated between urban area and corporation limits. Former is technical - decided by population density while latter is decided by manipulation. Hence when we talk of a city, we talk about technical term not the political administrative set up.
Hi
Alniko aka Nik aka Nikolas,
Please sign up here when you are making some entries, using your user_name and user_talk with the date/time stamp.
And please understand that wikipedia is not a soapbox (
WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox) to advertise your feelings (passion for your city and hatred for the other).
I can judge you from the messages by you to a soap box (skyscrapercity) and your blogs related to Cochin (cochinmasala, voxcochin, etc). I can make out how much hatred you are carrying to your neighbouring city. I got to know about your aggressive passion for Kochi. I can understand your colour-blinded prejuidice. But Wikipedia is not the stage for you. See, how many times you vandalised the pages of both
[6]Thiruvananthapuram(history) and
[7]Kochi(history).
You have been editing from the IP addresses :203.199.213.66 and 203.199.213.67 (from Chennai using the ISP of VSNL) and also using your user id
Alniko (which is also from the same IP-further the editions were also the same).
There are certain norms for the editing in Wikipedia.
" Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about yourself, your friends, your company or products; or articles written as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, may be deleted in accordance with our
deletion policies." For more information, see
Wikipedia:Spam.
Also read
Wikipedia:Five_pillars
You can be even blocked, if you are not complying to the norms.
--
Samaleks
12:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Hate for Trivandrum
The attitude is not good from some guys driven by hate. They derive some happiness in tarnishing Thiruvananthapuram sites. We have already discussed this issue and settled during the previous talks.
In Kerala Thiruvananthapuram is the largest city corporation with around 8.5 lakhs population and 86 corporation wards. Cochin is smaller with 6.5 lakhs(60 wards)
Thiruvananthapuram is the largest city in area too.
But cochin has formed a conglomerate mainly supported by political needs and has added population of near by towns like Thrippunithura,Kalamasseri , Alway, Fort Kochi etc. If you do the same thing for Trivandrum it is much bigger in Area(as it is currently) and population. Last time we have agreed to add those things separately in Kerala page to avoid ambiguities. This discussion is there in Kerala discussion--Kerala. So please do not try to create hate here don’t try to fish in muddy waters.
--
Sathyalal
Talk
11:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Chakara is pretty unique to Kerala (S America being the only other place where it is observed). Perhaps we should add some detail about it in the article? -- thunderboltza.k.a.D eepu Joseph | TALK
I suppose the same phenomenon in Coastal Karnataka(Tulu regions) is known as Palke. However, I read it long back and not very sure about the exact name(but sure about the phenomenon). I will try to get it confirmed and also if anybody aware of that here please let me know. Thanks.
Manjunatha (7 May 2006)
I have deleted the vandalised portion from the history. Bharatveer 17:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
With all due respects to the contributors let me convey my feeling that the main article about Kerala is getting cluttered with too much details about history all crammed into one page. Why not redirect some of these topics into 'Topics Related to Kerala' and lessen the clutter felt in this fine page of ours which had even been featured in the Featured articles list. Let me take a few seconds to congragulate the efforts of a long time contributor Saravask along with many others whose efforts had much helped to take this article to the Featured article list. Thanks. ( Maabahuka 06:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC))
with regard to constant removal of passages with citations relating to syrian nsaranis by people including Maabahuka: One cannot remove passages with cites and references under the pretext of the page increasing in size or being cluttered. removing passages with references is vandalism. Robin klein 08:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Robin Klein do not use words like vandalism and so on out of context. I have innumerable citations to quote to prove the contrary of what you are saying but i known showing a citation will not become an endorsement to an issue which has no historical backing. There is not even proof that Jews have settled in Kerala prior to the 400 C.E. at the time of Knai Thomman. So i feel it would be appropriate to paint a neutral picture of the issue about the Syrian christian community of Kerala. On the other hand what you are doing is typical of spin doctoring. Pleaseee end your jewish fixation as is evidenced from your talk in the Kerala Talk page previously and let us put the facts across the page in a neutral and objective way. Here i am asking the view of others in this matter. please respond. ( Maabahuka 08:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC))
Mr Maabahuka you have been deleting passages with references and that is the typical work of a spin doctor. Your deletion shows your brahmin fixation. Robin klein 15:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC) _______________________________________________________ Both of them might be having fixations jewish/brahmin but there is reason for the protests of Maabahukka. First of all there is no referance anywhere about "Brown Jews" as Robin Klien says. Maybe he is referring to "black Jews" see: Jewish Encyclopida.com http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=558&letter=C
Even if Robin Klein is speaking about Black jews, they were not in Kerala in the 1st century A.D. So the talks about the brown jews or black jews and St. Thomas coming to convert them are all cock and bull stories and unencyclopedic. So understand why i am deliting the folklore portion. Why not add the folklores in a separate section titled Folklores of Kerala. ( Bluubyrd 09:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC))
I have provided references and citations by Jewish scholars for the arrival of Black\brown Jews to kerala long before the first century CE, and the arrival of st thomas to Kerala for proselytizing the Jewish settlements Robin klein 06:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
"Khair" in arabic means fine/ good and that makes it allah's care and not allah's own country. Besides it is improper to add the personal opinion of a fundamentalist politician in this article. Bharatveer 04:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
There was a {{ inote}} in the lead for the article which I have stripped out as it meant that a backlink from the citations wasn't working. I generally disagree with the use of inote - it was meant as an alternative to using bulky reference and citation templates, until mediawiki produced an "official" referencing system. We now have cite.php so inote's original purpose is no longer relevant. Of course, the reason that inote was being used in the lead is that, as a general rule, lead sections shouldn't have references. However, this merely stems from a more important rule - the lead should be a summary of the article; any claims raised in the lead should be examined in greater depth later and it is there that appropriate citations should be made. What appears to be being referenced (though I lack access to the source so can't tell what the scope of the citation is meant to be) is the statistical impact of Kerala's social reforms, which is extensively covered in the "Demographics" section (though peculiarly not to the same source as given in the lead!). I will leave this to be dealt with by those who have access to the sources - my suggestion is simply "please don't {{ inote}} references", and if you don't actually want a citation to appear in the lead, just put the citation where the relevant material is covered again? TheGrappler 11:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Infobox states largest city is tiruvanantapuram while largest metro is Kochi. So Kochi is a metro that is smaller than a city? and Tiruvanantapuram is not a metro despite being a city that is larger than another metro? How is that?-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 09:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I think Kerala is a wrong and corrupted english translation of Keralam, So why should the English name of Keralam be 'Kerala' and not 'Keralam'?, 'Kerala' is almost meaning-less in malayalam ,and is never used while speaking in malayalam.
Another point is 'Malayali' or 'Keralite?' I think Keralite is an ugly and contrived word, and should not be used , in such an article of truth.
user:Slime_mould (9:27 pm , 6 June 2006 (IST))
Crewcut 14:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC) 05:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
We need a separate section on Tourism as it is so critical to the state. The kanataka page has a tourism section Crewcut 14 June 2006 (UTC)
09:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Keralam being the lands of kera is not the prevailing theory, it is just a vulgar (popular)assumption. Historically it very often attributed to Chera Dynasty that ruled over parts of Kerala. Cruxit 17:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the name: 'alam' means valley, certainly not "place" (that would be 'aalayam'). Keralam almost certainly did not come from the words meaning "a place of coconuts!" Most certainly it refers to an old king called Keralaputra. I think the buck stops there - it is not necessary to delve into the etymology of THAT name, so... zeinab 19:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Lakeshore hospital photo is pure advertorial. It needs to be removed. Cruxit 18:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this discussion is wandering... the lakeshore pic is inappropriate. Lake Shore represents a hospital that is inaccessible to all but the elite of Kochi, let alone Kerala. Secondly, the picture is almost a dressed-up thumbnail, probably converted from a gif. It doesn't have the look and feel of a journalist photo (which it isn't). Instead, it shows exactly what it is: it belongs in an advert brochure.--zeinab 19:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the pics, wouldn't it be better if you could simply remove the (repeated) references to Marayoor? Those are all great pics and they are all of Marayoor... But to someone casually looking, Marayoor would seem to be the only spot worth seeing! Instead, one could just say "Idukki". I think Marayoor is representative of a whole lot of scenic places in Idukki...--zeinab 19:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
This page is becoming a bit too long. It is currently 76 kbs - the bulk of which must be caused by the references. But nonetheless, it is very much higher than the wikipedia prescribed page size. I think we need to seriously think about trimming it up, and add all new/semi-relavent data to the sub pages. -- thunderboltza.k.a.D eepu Joseph | TALK 13:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
"Feudal Nair-Namboothiri Brahminical city-states," What nonsense is that? Namboothiris are brahmins, no need to tell them apart. Savemalayalam 20:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
"To its east and northeast, Kerala borders Tamil Nadu and Karnataka;" The wording is clumsy because there is no balance. As such the cluase gives prominence to TN and Kar. Passive voice would shift the emphasis back to Kerala; "Kerala is bordered by... I would prefer re-writing with the verb adjoin. Savemalayalam 20:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
The revert was totally unwarranted and inappropriate. I suppose the guy who did that would see sense and restore the polemic on a very important point of history. Savemalayalam 16:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I checked your user page. You will be the last one I should be harsh towards. But I would like to mention one thing. Real things happen when you put the rules under strain rather than abide by them in a book-kissing manner. The difference between the former and the latter is simply that between conformism or smugness on the one hand and battering, bettering I mean, on the other. Savemalayalam 05:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
[ [8]] See the article on Kallayi. Should a person totally unfamiliar with the subject matter write an article on that? To write that Kallayi is on river Chaliyar is one of the baddest thing a user can do on Wiki because it is a blunder. Kallayi is on Kallayi river, a very small river that runs only about 22 kilometres. To confuse it with Chaliyar, which is a major river in Kerala, is unpardonable. Those who have not even a smattering of the suject matter should desist from creating articles. Savemalayalam 17:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
The article chenda [ [9]]has too many blunders I suppose. I believe that it does not accompany kootiyattam (no d for t for me). It is not "suspended from drummer's neck" except in reare occasions, I think. It does not "hang vertically" most often. It has no parchment. The users need to be aware of the threat to quality from inept editing and creation. Savemalayalam 04:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Please note that one article titled Running Amok had an extremely misguiding argument related to a particular episode in Kerala history. It seems that the erroneous part was kept for quite some time and diffused into a few other articles until this user removed it through mere deletion. The misguiding argument is actually a blunder and you can see it below in a part excerpted from zamorin and deleted from there by this user since.
"The Samoothiris had an interesting tradition which dictated that every Samoothiri who ruled over twelve years would have to publicly cut his throat. In the 17th century, this tradition was modified and led to an annual event where the Samoothiri declared that after an annual 12-day festival (Mamankam festival), it was lawful for anyone wishing, to try to assassinate him. The Samoothiri would be seated in a national assembly, surrounded by guards. This revised tradition led to the development of suicide squads, called chaver, by neighbouring states (particularly Valluvakkonathiri ) with the objective of killing the Samoothiri."
Anyone with a smattering of Kerala history will at once know that this is not history. No zamorin is ever recorded to have killed himself thus. There is no such custom in the collective conscousness of the local people, not even in the form of a far-fetched myth. This user doesn't know if Alexander Hamilton, cited to prop this falsity in the original article mentioned earlier, recorded such a custom at all. Even if he has, I can positively state (after consulting two historians) that the argument is false. I would also like to point out that non-native accounts of Kerala history should be considered with a fair amount of skepticism. In Encylopedia Britannica zamorin has been referred to as a Muslim prince under the article Cabral. (Mark the irony;Zamorins are known to have betrayed Muslim chieftains to foreigners.) The blunder has been sustained over decades. Savemalayalam 05:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I found the page Kerala Tourism at WP:DEAD and while looking for a place to merge first thought Kerala#Economy would be the logical target before I found Tourism in Kerala, basically by accident. If tourism is of economic or cultural importance in the state giving it a section or mention in a section heading might be a good idea. Eluchil404 20:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)