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The revert war on this article is doing nobody any favours so I protected the page, please discuss your differences here and come to an agreement. Thryduulf 13:44, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm not at all convinced this is the appropriate course of action -- we don't have a genuine dispute, just a user who keeps removing explanation while offering only the barest pretext of an explanation (and only that after being reverted three times by two different users). As I have stated repeatedly, this information is accurate, verifiable, properly sourced, and presented neutrally, per our policies. RadicalSubversiv E 17:17, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
This nonsense should not be forced into the article. Wikipedia is not a forum for disseminating internet rumours. That Mehlman was asked whether he was gay and refused to dignify the question with an answer is NOT newsworthy and does not deserve to be in the article. It's an easy call: it stays out. Flavius Aetius 05:45, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
What we have here is a single user who continues to compromise the integrity of the article by repeatedly inserting sleazy gossip into the page with only the flimsiest of explanations, even after being reverted six times by three different users. This is a case of someone who has seized on internet gossip regarding Mehlman's sexuality (the source of which was the biased, less than reliable, and left-leaning gay blogger Mike Rogers) and has decided to use this web page as a soapbox to give credence to that gossip. Mr. Mehlman being asked whether was gay after giving a speech at a Republican fundraiser and declining to dignify that question with an answer on principle is not notable and simply does not warrant inclusion in a Wiki article. Brian Brockmeyer 02:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
As a user who has reverted Radicalsubversiv on this page, I feel compelled to weigh in. The line does not belong here because, like a previous poster pointed out, it does not establish anything. A public person refusing to answer an inappropriate question posed to him as a matter of principle is not a significant occurrence. If Mehlman had answered, 'yes', to the question, then it would be a different story, but he didn't, and to stick the line in is to indulge in nothing more than sleazy tabloid gossip. My two cents. 24.186.219.123 16:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Ken Mehlman's refusal to answer the question if he is gay is absolutely newsworthy as it raises suspicions that he might gay. If he was a Democrat that would have been a non-issue, but given that the Republican Party is extremely homophobic, to have a gay person lead the party is certainly newsworthy. The statement that Mehlman refused to answer the question is written in a Nuetral Point of View (NPOV) so therefore belongs in the article. -- Asbl 05:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Moving our farsical exchange to the article talk page and replying again:
Is the fact that he has never been married not credible? Does that not lead to speculations? With Mehlman refusing to answer questions about the speculation, this leads to even more speculation, and this is relevant, and presented in a neutral point of view-- Asbl 16:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
How about saying:
Apparently there is some attempt being made to disparage Mehlman or to protest his appointment as RNC head or to tear up the anti-homosexuality plank in its party platform - or maybe a bit of all three.
Does anyone know how often reporters (or others) keep bringing the question up? Are there any other politicians who refuse / have refused to talk about their sex life?
What I'm getting at is that refused to answer whether he's gay does not sound encyclopedic.
Here's another possibility:
Thus Wikipedia would not be taking sides for him (saying he doesn't have to answer) or against him (taking him to task for refusing). Uncle Ed 19:03, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
You have thoroughly misunderstood and therefore thoroughly misrepresented my views. I said, "Plenty of this stems from polemics about the entrenchment of leftist political bias in the media establishment, which is, I believe, why you find more developed political blogging on the right." In short: the reason is polemical. I did not assume the validity of these polemics; I said the right has been making them for some time, which is why there is more developed blogging of this sort on the right. Argument about left-wing bias in mainstream media is ongoing; you have people like Eric Alterman asking "What Liberal Media?" and pointing to an assymetry between the imputed liberal beliefs of most mainstream media and the sort of partisanship found at Fox and other right-wing echo chambers, even as you have the Public Editor of the New York Times acknowledging the massive fact of the liberal personal beliefs of the paper. These arguments are developed from reading the New York Times and The Nation critically. I don't intend to adjudicate those claims here; my point is that left wing media bias is alternately an axiom and a polemical bludgeon for the right. I have said nothing about right-wing blogs being more credible; I have pointed out that there is greater demand for them on the right and that, to the extent that they can produce evidence to support specific claims (e.g. in examining the letter about Bush's National Guard service that Dan Rather used for his story, demonstrating that it was an obvious fake), the credibility of some of their claims have established credibility. I have further pointed out that credibility is established in having mainstream media acknowledge, develop, and report stories originating in the blogosphere. Hence my remark, "There is a level at which blogs are not independent media; for general and encyclopedic purposes, they need to be validated by more conventional process (either concession that they are correct or further investigation to substantiate their argument, which may not be adequately referenced)." I meant to apply this at level of particular facts, although this undoubtedly reflects more generally on particular sources.
Please either point out exactly where my right-wing hackery is evident or withdraw your remark, which I find offensive and, moreover, counter-productive. I find this recurring effort to reduce this to matters of bias and to insist on something like equal coverage as a matter of NPOV thoroughly unencyclopedic, which is why I repeatedly asserted that NPOV is an insufficient criteria for resolving this matter. I think it telling that you assume that because I am arguing this against what you believe is a left-wing interest, I must be some kind of right wing hack. It is not a matter of left or right here; it's a matter of demonstrating wisdom and commitment to encyclopedic principle. As you continue to argue this in terms of political bias and not in terms of wikipedia policy, this looks more and more like your attempts to edit the article have a lot more to do with making a point than being encyclopedic. I suggest that you need to either establish why such a view would be incorrect or concede. Buffyg 11:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but that's not sufficient. You launched a personal attack amidst a series of glaring logical errors; withdraw your remark that I am a "right wing hack". If you think you can identify my political beliefs, sexual preferences, or favourite flavour of ice cream by way of my continuing insistence that you establish the credibility of your source (which, as best as I can determine, you have simply assumed) and the notability of the claim, it conveys to me that you entirely misapprehend the principles I argue and the stakes of this exchange. Your attempt to smear me is entirely determined by your continuing insistence that this is nothing more than a matter of balancing partisan POVs. This leads you to conclude erroneously that I am diametrically opposed to you in political belief, which is no more obtuse than anything else you've argued here — it appears that you know a lot more about polemics than you've let on. Buffyg 01:25, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
You have claimed that I am "undoubtedly a right wing hack" without bothering to establish that this is relevant or true (sorry to disappoint your latest stab in the dark, but I have never turned to Fox for news, even when I had a television and American cable TV). Such remarks are not criticism; they are beside the point and are contrary to Wikipedia's civility policies and guidelines. Please take a moment to review:
I am not concerned about whether you think I am your partisan enemy or your false ally. My point is that you haven't the right to inject these polemics into this discussion. What you continue to refuse to do is restore civility by retracting your attack, acknowledge that you have thoroughly mischaracterised my remarks, and are obligated argue what you have just nearly acknowledged to be the issue (and my argument is that your proposed edit illuminates nothing, tells us nothing because its source is content to speculate on possibilities rather than investigate facts, which is why your source is not credible and his reporting unnoteworthy). You have skirted these issues, which is why I have said that your arguments remain obtuse, which is not a personal attack and therefore bears no comparison to your remarks, despite your suggestion. You can withdraw the remarks in an act of good faith, or I will simply excise them, as I am allowed to do with the unapologetically uncivil.
The mediation committee is overloaded. Do we really need to wait for them to get involved before you elaborate an argument that directly addresses my objections? Reasonable people are more likely to agree if they agree to be reasonable in arguing issues. Please take a moment to review the following:
I should think that direct reference to the above ought to allow us to establish more precisely the parameters of our disagreement. Perhaps you might finally do me the courtesy of replying to my concerns on such terms. At least we might finally establish whether this is a reasonable disagreement to bring to the attention of the mediation committee. I refuse to support further appeals for mediation until you undertake this in good faith. Buffyg 18:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
No, I did not say that your edit is NPOV; I already spoke to this: "You continue to harp on NPOV (and I also believe that this could be contested on that basis)". I said the question of NPOV is to be considered only after the other issues raised. Pointing to the bad conduct of another to excuse your own is childish. (In what sense is Noitall my ally? On the one hand he also believes your edit here to be unjustified, on the other hand he makes uncivil remarks. I don't see where these agreements and disagreements add up to an alliance.) You cannot hope to substantiate the "right wing hack" remark (you will find on closer inspection that you support your characterisation with arguments I've already raised and allowed in my statement immediately preceding your cheap shot) and because it is an irrelevant attack on my political affiliation, which is explicitly said to be exemplary of personal attacks. I cannot accept in good faith your assertion that "I do not think I engaged in a personal attack." Again: withdraw your remarks, or I will delete them. Buffyg 20:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I have no received no further reply on this matter. Barring substantive reply on the policy issues I have raised and (should that reply come from User:Asbl) action on the tokens of civility and good faith on which I insist, I consider the matter concluded and further edits on the subject to be without justification in terms of the Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and principles previously referenced. I am also striking through the comments I find offensive. Buffyg 18:39, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Never been married/Bachelor seems to make no difference. Could one side or the other in this idiotic dispute come to talk and explain? Hipocrite - «Talk» 05:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Can we please stop making comments in the edit log that belong on the talk page? This practise doesn't do anything to build up consensus, as people trying to understand the issues behind a series of edits don't go to the history page to get a history of one-line comments that are thought to resolve matters in one stroke. The latest comment is the following:
What remains unspoken are criteria for verification of his marriageability (other than his being married). As the OED would have it, marriageability refers to "fitness" to be married, most frequently referencing age. If this is an extension of the nonsense of not knowing whether he is straight until he has a wife and kids (recalling of course that one does find gay men married with children), let's note that there are places that Mehlman can go to get married if it turns out that he's gay, so marriageability would be a nonsensical criteria if people want to argue that we don't yet know his gender object preference. As it is, I would have to argue that Mehlman, straight or queer, is a bachelor and marriageable according to conventional usage, which is sufficient for purposes of wikipedia. Buffyg 11:11, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm not saying that we should wait until he is married with kids. However, he has refused to say anything about his sexual orientation or even whether he is interested in partners of either sex. We must include more than simply age in determining marriageability since a 25-year-old RC priest is obviously not a bachelor. Some indication that he is inclined to marry, either to a woman or a man, should be produced in order to verify his marriageability and therefore whether he is a bachelor. Otherwise, we risk stating more than can be verified. Claiming instead that he has never been married allows us to sidestep the question of marriageability. Ortcutt
I find it amusing that a three-paragraph article has a 50kb talk page discussing a single disputed fact. Isn't there anything else that we can expand the article with? sjorford #£@%&$?! 13:01, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
"Starting in the 1960s, Republicans exploited Southern opposition to integration, as the G.O.P. National Committee chairman, Ken Mehlman, recently admitted." (from one of Joe Klein's recent articles on time.com)
Criticized by whom for not answering which questions? And for what misleading information? Assertions like this really need more detail, and a source. - Willmcw 23:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
It was a nice try for Anon 206.195.19.43 to put the hypocracy context, but I'm afraid we have to leave it out.
-- Asbl 21:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
As a test of your lack of bias, I have added a small statement to Barbara Mikulski's article, copied almost verbatim from the Ken Mehlman article. I wonder how long it will last? 206.195.19.42 21:26, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Katefan0, Dreier has a 94% conservative voting record, whereas Roy Blunt, who did get the job of caretaker Majority Leader has only a 92% conservative voting record. So much for the "not party-line enough" bunk. -- Asbl 22:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Please don't delete this discussion. Feel free to add to it. It was moved from my talk page by another editor because it is a general discussion on this topic. - Willmcw 01:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Mehlman's outing was apparently a big story at one point yet there is no mention of it in the article. It deserves discussion as it relates to the Republican gay mafia.
I'm confused about why his rumored homosexuality is worthy of encyclopedic inclusion (yes, Wiki editors, you can cite your sources for these RUMORS). Sen. Barbara Mikulski is also WIDELY rumored to be gay, yet no mention is made in her article.
There is an underlying agenda afoot here. Since Republicans reportedly have an "anti-gay" agenda, any hint of hypocrisy must be clobbered over the reader's head. Perhaps the Mehlman article should expand the note on being gay with a preface, such as, "Since the Republican Party is staunchly opposed to homosexuals, it is worthy to mention that Mehlman is rumored to be gay." 206.195.19.45 18:50, 21 November 2005 (UTC)Matt
That discussion involved a different set of editors. I now see that out of the first 10 Google hits for ["Ken Mehlman"] (excluding Wikipedia), half mention the question of his orientation. To avoid reporting on a widely discussed matter makes it appear that we are censoring information. Questioning if a person is gay is not a smear. - Willmcw 06:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
A consensus was NOT reached. buffyg and I agreed to disagree. That is by no means a "consensus". -- Asbl 19:16, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Why are we even considering including something so light on substance? Is there really a fact or issue here? I think not. 129.74.147.159 17:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I've made my sentiments known on this page. Mark me down as another against including this nonsense.- Brian Brockmeyer 19:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Willmcw, your citations are strained for lack of critical reading. I look at Harper's, and what do I get? "Ken Mehlman, chair of the Republican National Committee, once again avoided saying that he is gay." How does Harper's know that Mehlman is gay? They printed that he has avoided saying it, but they haven't substantiated it. The BlogActive materials cited by the Austin Chronicle are rather forthright about this: "While there’s no “smoking gun” with Mehlman, what makes this story most interesting is that despite repeated attempts to speak with Mr. Mehlman, his spokesperson refuses to state, on the record, that Mehlman is straight. Believable? You be the judge." I don't care what publications prints something if they don't give anything more than hint or innuendo or cannot get a credible source to go on record. The Village Voice reports this more honestly than the others: "Mehlman is unmarried, and political enemies gossip about him being gay."
As I've said before, if you want to address the larger context and be analytical about it, that's one thing, but repeating gossip, however juicy, just doesn't cut it. If you want to talk about a "Republican gay mafia" as a recurring belief, then speak about it as such. If you want to indicate that the existence of such a gay mafia is widely discussed in certain circles yet remains an unproven assertion for the level of explanatory power assigned to it, please do so. As it is, this remains a matter of belief and not fact, and the most pressing task is to unpack the fact of belief without confusing force of assertion for weight of evidence. By way of analogy: if I were going to write about the Iraq war, I might cite the Judith Miller article in The New York Times as evidence that there was a belief in the run-up to the war that Iraq was building atomic weapons, but I wouldn't confuse this with valid evidence that such a program existed. This is, in part, a sourcing problem with what the evidence is claimed to support. It indicates a belief certainly, but it does not establish the imputed facts. What I see here for lack of such distinctions is an attempt to reference what is only a part of the story and to do so far too little context. Buffyg 23:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
You are dead wrong, Katefan0. The Harper's article does not parse nearly the same as the edit, as Harper's makes but does not substantiate a stronger claim. It does, in fact, pass judgement on the answer because there is no explicit reference to someone else's question: "Ken Mehlman, chair of the Republican National Committee, once again avoided saying that he is gay." It does not say that Mehlman refused to answer a question per se; it says that he refused to make a statement, whose truth is implied: "once again avoided saying that he is gay". One takes away from this that it is not Mehlman's sexual orientation that is in question but his willingness to come out. No evidence is presented, not even complaints about non-cooperative sources. That's at the level of gossip. Refusing to account for that is non-critical treatment of sources, whether for credibility or for content of claims. The controversy is more complex and specific than "he said, she said," as I've tried to elaborate, and the sources cited go further toward acknowledging this, positively or not, than does the edit. Buffyg 15:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, you are mentioning rumours, as so many of your citations agree. Take your rawstory.com citation:
The Village Voice calls this "gossip". Worldnetdaily.com only references Mehlman in quotation marks. The quotation would not appear noteworthy unless the question appears credible and relevant. The article does little to establish the context of the question being answered, so one ought not be surprised that reference to the answer is contentious. By way of analogy: some nut with a press pass could ask the President whether there were aliens walking amongst us, diguised as humans. The President might reply that there is no reason to believe such a hypothesis. Absent information about why people believe in UFOs, there isn't much point in referencing such an exchange. Now, the analogy might break down because it is a far more admissible hypothesis that Mehlman may be gay than that we have "visitors," but both remain hypothetical and predicated on rumours. If you don't account for that, you aren't presenting significant operative distinctions. Buffyg 10:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
And the fact that you're only trying to summarise part of the story and leave obscure the rest is what I consider unsatisfactory. The sources you tap to support what would appear to be a very limited claim provide a great deal more context, which is neglected here. The fact that you choose to represent only a small part of the controversy is not a specious consideration -- if you're going to make an issue of refusing to answer questions, might you consider the extent to which you are also refusing to acknowledge questions? I can imagine why you might like to consider this irrelevant, but that limited view of relevance also opens the protocol of your inquiry to charges of a distinct flavour of hypocrisy. Buffyg 17:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I hope that with the addition of the NAACP apology, this will put to rest my critics' suspicions that I have some sort of an Anti-Mehlman or Pro-Gay agenda.
I was hoping this would have been achieved when I helped incorporate the
sexual orientation story into the
Barbara Mikulski article, but apparently it was not.
I have absolutely no agendas other than helping expand Wikipedia. I have contributed to articles about both Left Wing as well as Right Wing politicians and activists. --
Asbl 22:33, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Willmcw, I noticed that when you restored Mehlman's refusal to answer the question about his sexual orientation, you did not include the word "refuse" in the paragraph. I think the verb "refuse" needs to be somewhere in the paragraph, but I'm afraid to stir up a hornets nest again. Do you object to the word "refuse"? -- Asbl 05:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, it was not on the Larry King Live show, it was on Wolf Blitzer's show, and it was guest hosted by John King, not Larry King. Sorry for the error. -- Asbl 21:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
You now have a new set of people with whom to have endless and pointless arguments. Have fun. I will not take part in it. -- Asbl 06:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The references for this article need to be cleaned up. Especially in Personal where there are 8 html links. The appropriate style guide is [ [9]]. In particular note:
Wikibofh 15:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The accounts involved in this sock check [10] (Flavius Aetius, Brian Brockmeyer, and possibly some anon IPs) tag-team edited here, just wanted to post this to alert those involved in the earlier disputes on this page. They are all sockpuppets. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ mrp 18:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the open letter to Ken Mehlman written by Alexander S. Peak does not belong as an external link in Ken Mehlman's article because it is written as general complaints about the republican party, and not about how Ken Mehlman runs the republican party (i.e. it would have been written to any person who happened to be the chair of the Republican party at the time). In addition, with all due respects to Mr. Peak, He is not noteworthy enough that his dissatisfaction with Mehlman deserves a link. -- Asbl 15:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the NAACP paragraph belongs in the article. I realize why it's there so can have the 'Mehlman apologizes for Republican racism' 'Republicans are still racist'. But I don't think this kinda of gotcha! writing has a place on Wikipedia. More seriously there is no context given to the fact that it implicitly equates what's important to the African-American community and to the NAACP. Instead the list of bills the Republicans are ranked on have a few civil rights issues (like officially naming June 19, 1865 as “Juneteenth") but mainly are a grab bag of general left-wing issues, mainly on spending but some grab-bag (e.g. "PROHIBIT FEDERAL SURVEILLANCE OF LIBRARY RECORDS" or "ALLOWING EDUCATIONAL TRAVEL TO CUBA"). That's not to say that the NAACP is wrong on these issues but they are staking out explicitly left-wing causes which means the Republicans (who are generally rightist) are of course going to do badly on it. Sometimes this can get ridiculous, the Republicans lost points for voting to confirm an African-American judge. Anyway, for these reasons I think we should cut the NAACP paragraph and replace it with something like "However, only x% of African-Americans support the Republicans" (with x being, I assume, a very low number). Makgraf 00:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, I don't think Mehlman "reluctanly" used the phrase "Southern Strategy": he just pointed out that other regions of the country had used racist campaigns. Maybe I'm wrong, but whether it was "reluctant" or not is definetely pov and thus doesn't belong. Makgraf 00:42, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
You haven't said anything as to why the NAACP report card should be in there or to engage my argument why it shouldn't. Makgraf 23:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
You lost me. The NAACP is a non-partisan organization. How did you get the "left-wing list" from? If you feel polls are accurate, why did you remove the poll showing President Bush with a 2% approval rating among African Americans (after you inserted it). Again, please revert your deletion, and restore the deleted paragraph. -- Asbl 17:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I read the report card, and cound not find the text "garden-variety beltway liberal" anywhere in the report card. Please provide the exact page and paragraph number where they say they are "garden-variety beltway liberal". -- Asbl 02:40, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
That's enough. You are acting in bad faith. The NAACP is an organization that promotes the interest of colored people (that is what the CP stands for). You have already acknoledged that the "garden-variety beltway liberal" is your POV, so please stop. -- Asbl 18:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
This discussion has reached an impass. You believe I have not done a sufficient job at addressing your concerns, and I believe your concrens are nothing more than an attempt to impose your POV regarding the NAACP. I recommend we go mediation. Please click on the link and sign the post under Ken Mehlman indicating that you are willing to go to mediation. -- Asbl 11:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This debate was listed on Third Opinion, and here it is:
Hello; the Mediation Committee has accepted the request for mediation on the article Ken Mehlman. I will be happy to help out here; please see Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ken Mehlman for further information. Thank you! Flcelloguy ( A note?) 23:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Mehlman has done this, off the top of my head after Dean's 'Republicans are white, christians' thing. We should find the citation though. Makgraf 23:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Partisan schlock, Makgraf. The people at the bar mitzvahs of Arlen Specter and Norm Coleman might have similar retorts: your "monolithic" belies a prejudice that your impeccable integrity ought to silence. And let's not run desperately away from the matter at hand: you've not even attempted to justify "sometimes" DBaba 06:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The prejudice I alleged there was Democratic, not anti-Semitic: re-read what I said again, and understand it for the first time. (But that's so awesome that you're Jewish; thanks buddy!) Now it's awfully cute that you note "perceived" lack of diversity on the talk page, but you'll actually be owning up to the integrity of which I'm certain your possessive when you remove "sometimes" for being an injection of pure slime, insert "perceived" and "Howard Dean" to qualify that homogeneity we've accused the Republican party of representing, and perhaps even exclude your own "identity" from the question--if we are indeed talking about this article and not your (presumably splendid) childhood and adolescent maturation.
But just to spell this out for you, given that you clearly do NOT prefer partisan to encyclopedic ends:
He is unmarried, and has been subject to rumors in gossip columns alleging homosexuality. While he at first declined to deny the allegations, he later asserted that in fact he was heterosexual.
A resident of Washington, D.C., Mehlman is Jewish.
Any issue with what I've posited? Ahem, why? (While you defensively BS a response you don't even actually believe, I may actually read those civility guidelines: already fear I'll discover my portrait in a circle with a line through it there.) DBaba 09:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
One instance does not evidence "sometimes"; nor does it set us free of the slimy manipulation of context (e.g., "Asked to comment on Howard Dean's remarks indicating that the Republican party was the Christian party, Mehlman noted that he himself was the spokesman for the party, and Jewish").
"Makgraf sometimes asserts the fact that he is Jewish in order to counter allegations of bias."
Now is Mehl really responding to a "lack of diversity", or is he actually responding to the allegation of the Republican party being Christian, specifically, as per HD's statement? Were you responding to an allegation of being underhanded, or a (perceived) allegation of being anti-semitic?
I'd like you to take a good look at "criticism of lack of diversity". Now can we criticize a lack of diversity in the Republican party, or must we rather allege a lack of diversity? To render "allegation" as "criticism" is to imply facticity.
If you think what stands is fine, then that's fine with me. I trust your judgment. And I won't worry about M's " You have asked a question people shouldn’t have to answer" rendered as "declin(ing) to answer questions about his personal life". DBaba 06:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I added a line about his possibly being gay because I've heard it several times now on the radio.
I've heard the rumor enough times that I got curious, so I checked it out on Wikipedia. But there was no reference, which seems like a clear ommision.
So, I added it. And it was removed, supposedly, because mentioning the controversy is supposedly biased.
But just mentioning that there _IS_ a controversy is _NOT_ biased! For example, in the Clinton Wikipedia entry, there is mention of the rumors about Gennifer Flowers. It's not biased to just mention the controversy, whether you believe it happened or not! (Personally, it seemed like a smear campaign to me.) But to not mention of Gennifer Flowers is to not fully report on Clinton.
Similarly, to not mention persistent rumors of homosexuality is to not fully report on Mehlman.
Personally, I couldn't care less if Mehlman gay. But the persistent rumors of his homosexuality is a genuine controversy and should be mentioned. (Or, to be fair, omit references to rumors about Clinton.)
Bill Maher shocked Larry King on Wednesday night by mentioning what has only been rumored in Washington for years: Mehlman is (allegedly) a homosexual. “I never heard that,” Larry King responded. Maher says: “You don’t go to the same bathhouse I do.” ... it seems THIS incident can be included in the wiki article ... so someone expound on it properly.
Hi. I have absolutely no knowledge about Mr Mehlman and frankly, I don't give a damn about him. However, I did merge back Ken Mehlman/references to the main article. There's absolutely no point in having a separate subpage for references on a specific topic. Either people here believe this is significant enough to discuss in the article (in which case it should be properly referenced with fully detailed references appearing in the main article) or it's not significant in which case the references are simply unnecessary. Pascal.Tesson 00:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I have incorporated the references into the text as much as I can, using the <ref> function, however, some of the numbered refs did not appear to correspond to numbers in the text, and at least one number in the text does not appear to have a reference listed. DuncanHill 21:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I restored the content removed which was seveal big chunks - I think it's better to discuss them rather just delete them because they are sourced and discuss Mehlman. Hekerui ( talk) 07:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
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The revert war on this article is doing nobody any favours so I protected the page, please discuss your differences here and come to an agreement. Thryduulf 13:44, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm not at all convinced this is the appropriate course of action -- we don't have a genuine dispute, just a user who keeps removing explanation while offering only the barest pretext of an explanation (and only that after being reverted three times by two different users). As I have stated repeatedly, this information is accurate, verifiable, properly sourced, and presented neutrally, per our policies. RadicalSubversiv E 17:17, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
This nonsense should not be forced into the article. Wikipedia is not a forum for disseminating internet rumours. That Mehlman was asked whether he was gay and refused to dignify the question with an answer is NOT newsworthy and does not deserve to be in the article. It's an easy call: it stays out. Flavius Aetius 05:45, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
What we have here is a single user who continues to compromise the integrity of the article by repeatedly inserting sleazy gossip into the page with only the flimsiest of explanations, even after being reverted six times by three different users. This is a case of someone who has seized on internet gossip regarding Mehlman's sexuality (the source of which was the biased, less than reliable, and left-leaning gay blogger Mike Rogers) and has decided to use this web page as a soapbox to give credence to that gossip. Mr. Mehlman being asked whether was gay after giving a speech at a Republican fundraiser and declining to dignify that question with an answer on principle is not notable and simply does not warrant inclusion in a Wiki article. Brian Brockmeyer 02:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
As a user who has reverted Radicalsubversiv on this page, I feel compelled to weigh in. The line does not belong here because, like a previous poster pointed out, it does not establish anything. A public person refusing to answer an inappropriate question posed to him as a matter of principle is not a significant occurrence. If Mehlman had answered, 'yes', to the question, then it would be a different story, but he didn't, and to stick the line in is to indulge in nothing more than sleazy tabloid gossip. My two cents. 24.186.219.123 16:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Ken Mehlman's refusal to answer the question if he is gay is absolutely newsworthy as it raises suspicions that he might gay. If he was a Democrat that would have been a non-issue, but given that the Republican Party is extremely homophobic, to have a gay person lead the party is certainly newsworthy. The statement that Mehlman refused to answer the question is written in a Nuetral Point of View (NPOV) so therefore belongs in the article. -- Asbl 05:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Moving our farsical exchange to the article talk page and replying again:
Is the fact that he has never been married not credible? Does that not lead to speculations? With Mehlman refusing to answer questions about the speculation, this leads to even more speculation, and this is relevant, and presented in a neutral point of view-- Asbl 16:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
How about saying:
Apparently there is some attempt being made to disparage Mehlman or to protest his appointment as RNC head or to tear up the anti-homosexuality plank in its party platform - or maybe a bit of all three.
Does anyone know how often reporters (or others) keep bringing the question up? Are there any other politicians who refuse / have refused to talk about their sex life?
What I'm getting at is that refused to answer whether he's gay does not sound encyclopedic.
Here's another possibility:
Thus Wikipedia would not be taking sides for him (saying he doesn't have to answer) or against him (taking him to task for refusing). Uncle Ed 19:03, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
You have thoroughly misunderstood and therefore thoroughly misrepresented my views. I said, "Plenty of this stems from polemics about the entrenchment of leftist political bias in the media establishment, which is, I believe, why you find more developed political blogging on the right." In short: the reason is polemical. I did not assume the validity of these polemics; I said the right has been making them for some time, which is why there is more developed blogging of this sort on the right. Argument about left-wing bias in mainstream media is ongoing; you have people like Eric Alterman asking "What Liberal Media?" and pointing to an assymetry between the imputed liberal beliefs of most mainstream media and the sort of partisanship found at Fox and other right-wing echo chambers, even as you have the Public Editor of the New York Times acknowledging the massive fact of the liberal personal beliefs of the paper. These arguments are developed from reading the New York Times and The Nation critically. I don't intend to adjudicate those claims here; my point is that left wing media bias is alternately an axiom and a polemical bludgeon for the right. I have said nothing about right-wing blogs being more credible; I have pointed out that there is greater demand for them on the right and that, to the extent that they can produce evidence to support specific claims (e.g. in examining the letter about Bush's National Guard service that Dan Rather used for his story, demonstrating that it was an obvious fake), the credibility of some of their claims have established credibility. I have further pointed out that credibility is established in having mainstream media acknowledge, develop, and report stories originating in the blogosphere. Hence my remark, "There is a level at which blogs are not independent media; for general and encyclopedic purposes, they need to be validated by more conventional process (either concession that they are correct or further investigation to substantiate their argument, which may not be adequately referenced)." I meant to apply this at level of particular facts, although this undoubtedly reflects more generally on particular sources.
Please either point out exactly where my right-wing hackery is evident or withdraw your remark, which I find offensive and, moreover, counter-productive. I find this recurring effort to reduce this to matters of bias and to insist on something like equal coverage as a matter of NPOV thoroughly unencyclopedic, which is why I repeatedly asserted that NPOV is an insufficient criteria for resolving this matter. I think it telling that you assume that because I am arguing this against what you believe is a left-wing interest, I must be some kind of right wing hack. It is not a matter of left or right here; it's a matter of demonstrating wisdom and commitment to encyclopedic principle. As you continue to argue this in terms of political bias and not in terms of wikipedia policy, this looks more and more like your attempts to edit the article have a lot more to do with making a point than being encyclopedic. I suggest that you need to either establish why such a view would be incorrect or concede. Buffyg 11:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but that's not sufficient. You launched a personal attack amidst a series of glaring logical errors; withdraw your remark that I am a "right wing hack". If you think you can identify my political beliefs, sexual preferences, or favourite flavour of ice cream by way of my continuing insistence that you establish the credibility of your source (which, as best as I can determine, you have simply assumed) and the notability of the claim, it conveys to me that you entirely misapprehend the principles I argue and the stakes of this exchange. Your attempt to smear me is entirely determined by your continuing insistence that this is nothing more than a matter of balancing partisan POVs. This leads you to conclude erroneously that I am diametrically opposed to you in political belief, which is no more obtuse than anything else you've argued here — it appears that you know a lot more about polemics than you've let on. Buffyg 01:25, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
You have claimed that I am "undoubtedly a right wing hack" without bothering to establish that this is relevant or true (sorry to disappoint your latest stab in the dark, but I have never turned to Fox for news, even when I had a television and American cable TV). Such remarks are not criticism; they are beside the point and are contrary to Wikipedia's civility policies and guidelines. Please take a moment to review:
I am not concerned about whether you think I am your partisan enemy or your false ally. My point is that you haven't the right to inject these polemics into this discussion. What you continue to refuse to do is restore civility by retracting your attack, acknowledge that you have thoroughly mischaracterised my remarks, and are obligated argue what you have just nearly acknowledged to be the issue (and my argument is that your proposed edit illuminates nothing, tells us nothing because its source is content to speculate on possibilities rather than investigate facts, which is why your source is not credible and his reporting unnoteworthy). You have skirted these issues, which is why I have said that your arguments remain obtuse, which is not a personal attack and therefore bears no comparison to your remarks, despite your suggestion. You can withdraw the remarks in an act of good faith, or I will simply excise them, as I am allowed to do with the unapologetically uncivil.
The mediation committee is overloaded. Do we really need to wait for them to get involved before you elaborate an argument that directly addresses my objections? Reasonable people are more likely to agree if they agree to be reasonable in arguing issues. Please take a moment to review the following:
I should think that direct reference to the above ought to allow us to establish more precisely the parameters of our disagreement. Perhaps you might finally do me the courtesy of replying to my concerns on such terms. At least we might finally establish whether this is a reasonable disagreement to bring to the attention of the mediation committee. I refuse to support further appeals for mediation until you undertake this in good faith. Buffyg 18:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
No, I did not say that your edit is NPOV; I already spoke to this: "You continue to harp on NPOV (and I also believe that this could be contested on that basis)". I said the question of NPOV is to be considered only after the other issues raised. Pointing to the bad conduct of another to excuse your own is childish. (In what sense is Noitall my ally? On the one hand he also believes your edit here to be unjustified, on the other hand he makes uncivil remarks. I don't see where these agreements and disagreements add up to an alliance.) You cannot hope to substantiate the "right wing hack" remark (you will find on closer inspection that you support your characterisation with arguments I've already raised and allowed in my statement immediately preceding your cheap shot) and because it is an irrelevant attack on my political affiliation, which is explicitly said to be exemplary of personal attacks. I cannot accept in good faith your assertion that "I do not think I engaged in a personal attack." Again: withdraw your remarks, or I will delete them. Buffyg 20:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I have no received no further reply on this matter. Barring substantive reply on the policy issues I have raised and (should that reply come from User:Asbl) action on the tokens of civility and good faith on which I insist, I consider the matter concluded and further edits on the subject to be without justification in terms of the Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and principles previously referenced. I am also striking through the comments I find offensive. Buffyg 18:39, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Never been married/Bachelor seems to make no difference. Could one side or the other in this idiotic dispute come to talk and explain? Hipocrite - «Talk» 05:09, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Can we please stop making comments in the edit log that belong on the talk page? This practise doesn't do anything to build up consensus, as people trying to understand the issues behind a series of edits don't go to the history page to get a history of one-line comments that are thought to resolve matters in one stroke. The latest comment is the following:
What remains unspoken are criteria for verification of his marriageability (other than his being married). As the OED would have it, marriageability refers to "fitness" to be married, most frequently referencing age. If this is an extension of the nonsense of not knowing whether he is straight until he has a wife and kids (recalling of course that one does find gay men married with children), let's note that there are places that Mehlman can go to get married if it turns out that he's gay, so marriageability would be a nonsensical criteria if people want to argue that we don't yet know his gender object preference. As it is, I would have to argue that Mehlman, straight or queer, is a bachelor and marriageable according to conventional usage, which is sufficient for purposes of wikipedia. Buffyg 11:11, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm not saying that we should wait until he is married with kids. However, he has refused to say anything about his sexual orientation or even whether he is interested in partners of either sex. We must include more than simply age in determining marriageability since a 25-year-old RC priest is obviously not a bachelor. Some indication that he is inclined to marry, either to a woman or a man, should be produced in order to verify his marriageability and therefore whether he is a bachelor. Otherwise, we risk stating more than can be verified. Claiming instead that he has never been married allows us to sidestep the question of marriageability. Ortcutt
I find it amusing that a three-paragraph article has a 50kb talk page discussing a single disputed fact. Isn't there anything else that we can expand the article with? sjorford #£@%&$?! 13:01, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
"Starting in the 1960s, Republicans exploited Southern opposition to integration, as the G.O.P. National Committee chairman, Ken Mehlman, recently admitted." (from one of Joe Klein's recent articles on time.com)
Criticized by whom for not answering which questions? And for what misleading information? Assertions like this really need more detail, and a source. - Willmcw 23:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
It was a nice try for Anon 206.195.19.43 to put the hypocracy context, but I'm afraid we have to leave it out.
-- Asbl 21:28, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
As a test of your lack of bias, I have added a small statement to Barbara Mikulski's article, copied almost verbatim from the Ken Mehlman article. I wonder how long it will last? 206.195.19.42 21:26, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Katefan0, Dreier has a 94% conservative voting record, whereas Roy Blunt, who did get the job of caretaker Majority Leader has only a 92% conservative voting record. So much for the "not party-line enough" bunk. -- Asbl 22:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Please don't delete this discussion. Feel free to add to it. It was moved from my talk page by another editor because it is a general discussion on this topic. - Willmcw 01:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Mehlman's outing was apparently a big story at one point yet there is no mention of it in the article. It deserves discussion as it relates to the Republican gay mafia.
I'm confused about why his rumored homosexuality is worthy of encyclopedic inclusion (yes, Wiki editors, you can cite your sources for these RUMORS). Sen. Barbara Mikulski is also WIDELY rumored to be gay, yet no mention is made in her article.
There is an underlying agenda afoot here. Since Republicans reportedly have an "anti-gay" agenda, any hint of hypocrisy must be clobbered over the reader's head. Perhaps the Mehlman article should expand the note on being gay with a preface, such as, "Since the Republican Party is staunchly opposed to homosexuals, it is worthy to mention that Mehlman is rumored to be gay." 206.195.19.45 18:50, 21 November 2005 (UTC)Matt
That discussion involved a different set of editors. I now see that out of the first 10 Google hits for ["Ken Mehlman"] (excluding Wikipedia), half mention the question of his orientation. To avoid reporting on a widely discussed matter makes it appear that we are censoring information. Questioning if a person is gay is not a smear. - Willmcw 06:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
A consensus was NOT reached. buffyg and I agreed to disagree. That is by no means a "consensus". -- Asbl 19:16, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Why are we even considering including something so light on substance? Is there really a fact or issue here? I think not. 129.74.147.159 17:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I've made my sentiments known on this page. Mark me down as another against including this nonsense.- Brian Brockmeyer 19:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Willmcw, your citations are strained for lack of critical reading. I look at Harper's, and what do I get? "Ken Mehlman, chair of the Republican National Committee, once again avoided saying that he is gay." How does Harper's know that Mehlman is gay? They printed that he has avoided saying it, but they haven't substantiated it. The BlogActive materials cited by the Austin Chronicle are rather forthright about this: "While there’s no “smoking gun” with Mehlman, what makes this story most interesting is that despite repeated attempts to speak with Mr. Mehlman, his spokesperson refuses to state, on the record, that Mehlman is straight. Believable? You be the judge." I don't care what publications prints something if they don't give anything more than hint or innuendo or cannot get a credible source to go on record. The Village Voice reports this more honestly than the others: "Mehlman is unmarried, and political enemies gossip about him being gay."
As I've said before, if you want to address the larger context and be analytical about it, that's one thing, but repeating gossip, however juicy, just doesn't cut it. If you want to talk about a "Republican gay mafia" as a recurring belief, then speak about it as such. If you want to indicate that the existence of such a gay mafia is widely discussed in certain circles yet remains an unproven assertion for the level of explanatory power assigned to it, please do so. As it is, this remains a matter of belief and not fact, and the most pressing task is to unpack the fact of belief without confusing force of assertion for weight of evidence. By way of analogy: if I were going to write about the Iraq war, I might cite the Judith Miller article in The New York Times as evidence that there was a belief in the run-up to the war that Iraq was building atomic weapons, but I wouldn't confuse this with valid evidence that such a program existed. This is, in part, a sourcing problem with what the evidence is claimed to support. It indicates a belief certainly, but it does not establish the imputed facts. What I see here for lack of such distinctions is an attempt to reference what is only a part of the story and to do so far too little context. Buffyg 23:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
You are dead wrong, Katefan0. The Harper's article does not parse nearly the same as the edit, as Harper's makes but does not substantiate a stronger claim. It does, in fact, pass judgement on the answer because there is no explicit reference to someone else's question: "Ken Mehlman, chair of the Republican National Committee, once again avoided saying that he is gay." It does not say that Mehlman refused to answer a question per se; it says that he refused to make a statement, whose truth is implied: "once again avoided saying that he is gay". One takes away from this that it is not Mehlman's sexual orientation that is in question but his willingness to come out. No evidence is presented, not even complaints about non-cooperative sources. That's at the level of gossip. Refusing to account for that is non-critical treatment of sources, whether for credibility or for content of claims. The controversy is more complex and specific than "he said, she said," as I've tried to elaborate, and the sources cited go further toward acknowledging this, positively or not, than does the edit. Buffyg 15:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, you are mentioning rumours, as so many of your citations agree. Take your rawstory.com citation:
The Village Voice calls this "gossip". Worldnetdaily.com only references Mehlman in quotation marks. The quotation would not appear noteworthy unless the question appears credible and relevant. The article does little to establish the context of the question being answered, so one ought not be surprised that reference to the answer is contentious. By way of analogy: some nut with a press pass could ask the President whether there were aliens walking amongst us, diguised as humans. The President might reply that there is no reason to believe such a hypothesis. Absent information about why people believe in UFOs, there isn't much point in referencing such an exchange. Now, the analogy might break down because it is a far more admissible hypothesis that Mehlman may be gay than that we have "visitors," but both remain hypothetical and predicated on rumours. If you don't account for that, you aren't presenting significant operative distinctions. Buffyg 10:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
And the fact that you're only trying to summarise part of the story and leave obscure the rest is what I consider unsatisfactory. The sources you tap to support what would appear to be a very limited claim provide a great deal more context, which is neglected here. The fact that you choose to represent only a small part of the controversy is not a specious consideration -- if you're going to make an issue of refusing to answer questions, might you consider the extent to which you are also refusing to acknowledge questions? I can imagine why you might like to consider this irrelevant, but that limited view of relevance also opens the protocol of your inquiry to charges of a distinct flavour of hypocrisy. Buffyg 17:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I hope that with the addition of the NAACP apology, this will put to rest my critics' suspicions that I have some sort of an Anti-Mehlman or Pro-Gay agenda.
I was hoping this would have been achieved when I helped incorporate the
sexual orientation story into the
Barbara Mikulski article, but apparently it was not.
I have absolutely no agendas other than helping expand Wikipedia. I have contributed to articles about both Left Wing as well as Right Wing politicians and activists. --
Asbl 22:33, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Willmcw, I noticed that when you restored Mehlman's refusal to answer the question about his sexual orientation, you did not include the word "refuse" in the paragraph. I think the verb "refuse" needs to be somewhere in the paragraph, but I'm afraid to stir up a hornets nest again. Do you object to the word "refuse"? -- Asbl 05:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, it was not on the Larry King Live show, it was on Wolf Blitzer's show, and it was guest hosted by John King, not Larry King. Sorry for the error. -- Asbl 21:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
You now have a new set of people with whom to have endless and pointless arguments. Have fun. I will not take part in it. -- Asbl 06:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The references for this article need to be cleaned up. Especially in Personal where there are 8 html links. The appropriate style guide is [ [9]]. In particular note:
Wikibofh 15:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The accounts involved in this sock check [10] (Flavius Aetius, Brian Brockmeyer, and possibly some anon IPs) tag-team edited here, just wanted to post this to alert those involved in the earlier disputes on this page. They are all sockpuppets. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ mrp 18:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the open letter to Ken Mehlman written by Alexander S. Peak does not belong as an external link in Ken Mehlman's article because it is written as general complaints about the republican party, and not about how Ken Mehlman runs the republican party (i.e. it would have been written to any person who happened to be the chair of the Republican party at the time). In addition, with all due respects to Mr. Peak, He is not noteworthy enough that his dissatisfaction with Mehlman deserves a link. -- Asbl 15:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the NAACP paragraph belongs in the article. I realize why it's there so can have the 'Mehlman apologizes for Republican racism' 'Republicans are still racist'. But I don't think this kinda of gotcha! writing has a place on Wikipedia. More seriously there is no context given to the fact that it implicitly equates what's important to the African-American community and to the NAACP. Instead the list of bills the Republicans are ranked on have a few civil rights issues (like officially naming June 19, 1865 as “Juneteenth") but mainly are a grab bag of general left-wing issues, mainly on spending but some grab-bag (e.g. "PROHIBIT FEDERAL SURVEILLANCE OF LIBRARY RECORDS" or "ALLOWING EDUCATIONAL TRAVEL TO CUBA"). That's not to say that the NAACP is wrong on these issues but they are staking out explicitly left-wing causes which means the Republicans (who are generally rightist) are of course going to do badly on it. Sometimes this can get ridiculous, the Republicans lost points for voting to confirm an African-American judge. Anyway, for these reasons I think we should cut the NAACP paragraph and replace it with something like "However, only x% of African-Americans support the Republicans" (with x being, I assume, a very low number). Makgraf 00:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, I don't think Mehlman "reluctanly" used the phrase "Southern Strategy": he just pointed out that other regions of the country had used racist campaigns. Maybe I'm wrong, but whether it was "reluctant" or not is definetely pov and thus doesn't belong. Makgraf 00:42, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
You haven't said anything as to why the NAACP report card should be in there or to engage my argument why it shouldn't. Makgraf 23:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
You lost me. The NAACP is a non-partisan organization. How did you get the "left-wing list" from? If you feel polls are accurate, why did you remove the poll showing President Bush with a 2% approval rating among African Americans (after you inserted it). Again, please revert your deletion, and restore the deleted paragraph. -- Asbl 17:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I read the report card, and cound not find the text "garden-variety beltway liberal" anywhere in the report card. Please provide the exact page and paragraph number where they say they are "garden-variety beltway liberal". -- Asbl 02:40, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
That's enough. You are acting in bad faith. The NAACP is an organization that promotes the interest of colored people (that is what the CP stands for). You have already acknoledged that the "garden-variety beltway liberal" is your POV, so please stop. -- Asbl 18:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
This discussion has reached an impass. You believe I have not done a sufficient job at addressing your concerns, and I believe your concrens are nothing more than an attempt to impose your POV regarding the NAACP. I recommend we go mediation. Please click on the link and sign the post under Ken Mehlman indicating that you are willing to go to mediation. -- Asbl 11:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This debate was listed on Third Opinion, and here it is:
Hello; the Mediation Committee has accepted the request for mediation on the article Ken Mehlman. I will be happy to help out here; please see Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ken Mehlman for further information. Thank you! Flcelloguy ( A note?) 23:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Mehlman has done this, off the top of my head after Dean's 'Republicans are white, christians' thing. We should find the citation though. Makgraf 23:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Partisan schlock, Makgraf. The people at the bar mitzvahs of Arlen Specter and Norm Coleman might have similar retorts: your "monolithic" belies a prejudice that your impeccable integrity ought to silence. And let's not run desperately away from the matter at hand: you've not even attempted to justify "sometimes" DBaba 06:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The prejudice I alleged there was Democratic, not anti-Semitic: re-read what I said again, and understand it for the first time. (But that's so awesome that you're Jewish; thanks buddy!) Now it's awfully cute that you note "perceived" lack of diversity on the talk page, but you'll actually be owning up to the integrity of which I'm certain your possessive when you remove "sometimes" for being an injection of pure slime, insert "perceived" and "Howard Dean" to qualify that homogeneity we've accused the Republican party of representing, and perhaps even exclude your own "identity" from the question--if we are indeed talking about this article and not your (presumably splendid) childhood and adolescent maturation.
But just to spell this out for you, given that you clearly do NOT prefer partisan to encyclopedic ends:
He is unmarried, and has been subject to rumors in gossip columns alleging homosexuality. While he at first declined to deny the allegations, he later asserted that in fact he was heterosexual.
A resident of Washington, D.C., Mehlman is Jewish.
Any issue with what I've posited? Ahem, why? (While you defensively BS a response you don't even actually believe, I may actually read those civility guidelines: already fear I'll discover my portrait in a circle with a line through it there.) DBaba 09:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
One instance does not evidence "sometimes"; nor does it set us free of the slimy manipulation of context (e.g., "Asked to comment on Howard Dean's remarks indicating that the Republican party was the Christian party, Mehlman noted that he himself was the spokesman for the party, and Jewish").
"Makgraf sometimes asserts the fact that he is Jewish in order to counter allegations of bias."
Now is Mehl really responding to a "lack of diversity", or is he actually responding to the allegation of the Republican party being Christian, specifically, as per HD's statement? Were you responding to an allegation of being underhanded, or a (perceived) allegation of being anti-semitic?
I'd like you to take a good look at "criticism of lack of diversity". Now can we criticize a lack of diversity in the Republican party, or must we rather allege a lack of diversity? To render "allegation" as "criticism" is to imply facticity.
If you think what stands is fine, then that's fine with me. I trust your judgment. And I won't worry about M's " You have asked a question people shouldn’t have to answer" rendered as "declin(ing) to answer questions about his personal life". DBaba 06:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I added a line about his possibly being gay because I've heard it several times now on the radio.
I've heard the rumor enough times that I got curious, so I checked it out on Wikipedia. But there was no reference, which seems like a clear ommision.
So, I added it. And it was removed, supposedly, because mentioning the controversy is supposedly biased.
But just mentioning that there _IS_ a controversy is _NOT_ biased! For example, in the Clinton Wikipedia entry, there is mention of the rumors about Gennifer Flowers. It's not biased to just mention the controversy, whether you believe it happened or not! (Personally, it seemed like a smear campaign to me.) But to not mention of Gennifer Flowers is to not fully report on Clinton.
Similarly, to not mention persistent rumors of homosexuality is to not fully report on Mehlman.
Personally, I couldn't care less if Mehlman gay. But the persistent rumors of his homosexuality is a genuine controversy and should be mentioned. (Or, to be fair, omit references to rumors about Clinton.)
Bill Maher shocked Larry King on Wednesday night by mentioning what has only been rumored in Washington for years: Mehlman is (allegedly) a homosexual. “I never heard that,” Larry King responded. Maher says: “You don’t go to the same bathhouse I do.” ... it seems THIS incident can be included in the wiki article ... so someone expound on it properly.
Hi. I have absolutely no knowledge about Mr Mehlman and frankly, I don't give a damn about him. However, I did merge back Ken Mehlman/references to the main article. There's absolutely no point in having a separate subpage for references on a specific topic. Either people here believe this is significant enough to discuss in the article (in which case it should be properly referenced with fully detailed references appearing in the main article) or it's not significant in which case the references are simply unnecessary. Pascal.Tesson 00:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I have incorporated the references into the text as much as I can, using the <ref> function, however, some of the numbered refs did not appear to correspond to numbers in the text, and at least one number in the text does not appear to have a reference listed. DuncanHill 21:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I restored the content removed which was seveal big chunks - I think it's better to discuss them rather just delete them because they are sourced and discuss Mehlman. Hekerui ( talk) 07:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
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