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What about the suit for his illegal campaigning in churches? The man is evil and has no right being Govenor.
Is it true he was cochair of ... I can't even type his name ... the "reelection" campaign in Ohio? Kwantus 22:20, 2004 Nov 4 (UTC)
(lawsuit pdf), also see [1]. Kevin Baas | talk 20:11, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)
[2] - letter asking for illegal campaign contributions
Kevin Baas
talk 21:37, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)
[3] use of seal on said letter is illegal.
Title 18 of the U.S. Code, as revised in January 1971, prohibits use of the likeness of the Great Seal or any facsimile in “any advertisement, circular, book, pamphlet, or other publication, play, motion picture, telecast, or other production” for the purpose of conveying a false impression of sponsorship or approval by the U.S. Government under threat of a fine of not more than $250 or imprisonment of not more than 6 months, or both.
Kevin Baas talk 19:00, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)
He is on the Board of Directors for the conservative Club for Growth.
This article is, on the whole, extremely unbalanced.
1) It repeats numerous charges made against Blackwell by Democratic advocacy groups and party members, but provides very few links to where those charges are laid out, providing no way for readers to check for themselves on the nature of the claims and reliability of the sources.
2) In several instances the partisan source of these charges are NOT acknowledged. We are told that "many" have made a complaint/accusation. This may be factually correct, but in context it misleads, suggesting that people of various political stripes agree on the criticism, when in fact, all the accusers are strongly partisan. (Note: the partisan nature of the sources neither proves nor disproves their validity. But it is only fair to let the reader KNOW the political commitments of these folks.)
3) The charges alone are listed. Very little is said about the arguments Blackwell and others have made for his position and actions.
Major case in point: the October 21 district court decision against Blackwell was cited (together with a gratuitous partisan remark from the judge that shed NO light on the arguments or merits of either side in the case). But there was no mention, much less a link to the appeals court's reversal of that decision.
Again, the
4)It treats strongly partisan web sites from one side as reliable news sources, And, once again, there is not even a mention of sources that dispute the claims.
5) The language is repeatedly slanted to characterize(or rather caricature) Blackwell, when the basic facts could be laid out very simply, leaving the reader to judge.
You are, of course, entitled to your own POV on Blackwell. And you are welcome to publish it on DU forums, dKospedia and numerous blogs. But the point of THIS web site on a subject where there is a political dispute OUGHT to be to lay out the essential facts and the points made by BOTH sides, and to point people to the original sources that can help them arrive at their own judgment.
A challenge (for starters):
a) clearly state WHO has made particular charges. Try using ACTIVE voice and including clearly identified SUBJECTS "[Democrats/PN/...]charge", rather than "came under fire" (from WHOM?) and "Many have charged..."
b) clearly SOURCE the claims -- provide LINKS
c)attempt to find and include the responses Blackwell and his supporters have made to the charges and provide links to these as well (and "from their own mouths", not citations in DailyKos, et.al.)
-- BruceJohnson 16:59, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
66.192.197.20 made a series of very valuable edits. In the process, the editor may have deleted other valuable edits. 66.192.197.20 was criticized for editing as an Anon, but Wiki policy gives them the same rights as anyone else as long as they are not vandalizing. Given the extent of the edits and valuable contribution, the best approach is use this as a basis and continue editing, including using any old text that is appropriate. -- Noitall July 2, 2005 14:19 (UTC)
Great article, with many citations:
http://www.harpers.org/index.html
highly POV, but a lot to add to an NPOV article. Dsol 01:29, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
A gentleman from Ohio just brought up an important point: This article is lacking any discussion of the Coingate or Noe scandals. I haven't heard of the "Noe" scandal, but Coingate is pretty well known in politically educated circles outside of Ohio. If someone is fairly knowledgable on coingate and how K.B. (and the Ohio republican party - in the broader picture) is involved in it, i believe that would be a great contribution to the article, and interesting and important for readers like the gentleman who came here to find info on that topic. Kevin baas 18:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Coingate and Noe
I've heard Blackwell's name associated with the scandal, and he was a major player in bush's election campaign, which some of the money was used for, so there's a plausible link. However, I can't recall ever reading any material claim that he was in some way involved in coingate, though then again I haven't read much on the topic. Kevin Baas talk 18:57, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
This article has too little actual info. about Mr. Blackwell, most of it is about the election "scandal", this by itself may be POV as the disputes about Ohio in 2004 were certainly not on par with Florida in 2000 as this article would imply, only the fringe left floats conspiracy theories on this matter, it isn't taken seriously by mainstream politicos of either U.S. party...
Feel free to read any of my articles on the subject. I interviewed a lot of the folks on the ground, probably more than any other reporter, including Carlo LoParo, Blackwell's spokesperson, and two of the County Election Chairs as well as an expert on Ohio's election law, the attorney for the Kerry campaign and the person in charge of mobilizing the greens efforts to observe the recount. One of my articles is already listed in Wikipedia under the general election 2004 controversies page for general interest. In the interests of full disclosure, I am a Democrat and currently do most of my writing on the editorial side and they tend to be quite partisan and pointed. At the time of election 2004, however, I was on the news side of things and determined to get the story right whatever my personal feelings. In fact, after interviewing LoParo, I began to think that there was no "There" there regarding the controversies. Problem was that he referred me to county election chairs, several of whom were Democrats and then specified two in particular that I should interview to remove any doubts about the election in Ohio from my mind. Well, when I interviewed those two, they completely contradicted what LoParo and Blackwell had been saying, had numerous complaints, and gave examples of several items that could definitely have added up to significant swings of votes. Then the recount was improperly conducted by a huge amount of the counties and I began to wonder what are these people hiding? I mean, if you want to kill a controversy like this dead, wouldnt you conduct a thorough recount exactly like the law requires? Ohio had a very impressive recount law that I noted would have cleared up any conspiracy theories either way if conducted according to the law, but at least 17 counties completely ignored the law. Anyway, here are the relevant articles I wrote on the subject in chronological order (At least I think I included all of them):
12-12-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Dec/EEN41bcaddeb20b7.html
12-13-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Dec/EEN41bdf9f1ad056.html
12-14-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Dec/EEN41bf5ef4d50b2.html
12-20-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Dec/EEN41c754d14d6d9.html
1-4-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2005/Jan/EEN41daafcecb050.html
1-7-05 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2005/Jan/EEN41defee5accf6.html
Please feel free to email me at sleser001@yahoo.com for more information/discussion.
Why is there a "List of legal suits"? It doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose to simply list lawsuits against a politician in his official capacity. Also, many of the links are no longer valid. -- Ajdz 06:57, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Kevin Baas talk 20:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else have a comment here? --
Ajdz
22:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but we Ohioans are too busy talking to each other to bother editing here!
I'm sure you've reviewed the above history. Every so often, someone has come along asking for a less biased article. I asked for a neutral article back last winter. (I didn't know what a Talk page was then. I editted into the article: This is biased. Much of it could/should be in an "OH Secretary of State" article or something, not Mr Blackwell; especially any lawsuits against the Office of SOS. The topical coverage is out of proportion: the election allegations over-covered versus other relevant biographical content. Et cetera. In closing, I voted in Ohio and thought we Ohioans did just fine, so I can't be neutral. Please fix, whoever you Wiki people are.) Well, as you can see, little was done.
I check back occasionally, here and a few other articles, to see if Wikipedia is getting any better. Wiki and political person's pages are perhaps the best example of why the lack of author accountability is a serious flaw in the Wikipedia business model. (BTW, I read that Wiki is a tax-deductible charity. I'm using 'business model' here in the generic sense of how an organization or process operates.)
Time to go read some useful Ohio local blogs.
Yes, other views? Is there anybody out there? Kevin Baas talk 22:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
As Ohio Secretary of State, Blackwell has been a party to many election-related lawsuits. As Ohio Attorney General, Petro has/had the responsibility to defend the suits. Some of the suits were/will be decided by Ohio appointed judges and Ohio's elected Supreme Court. (In summary, what's the point of this list of legal suits here, in a person's individual page, rather than in an Ohio elections page?)
he looks better arab. besides, why should truth be more noble than falsehood, or upholding the wikipedia guidelines somehow more preferable than ignoring them? -- Froth
what is the objection to the word controversial? i realize that nearly any issue can be classified as "controversial" if even a single person objects to it. however, in the case of blackwell's support of the ammendment to strictly outline the definition of marriage the word "controversial" clearly applies. to adjz who deleted it...did you live in ohio in 2004? did you somehow miss the protests, news stories, newspaper articles and widespread tv commercials for either side? i believe that by removing the modifier "controversial" you are reducing the significance of mr. blackwell's support. i would like to change the article back to the way it was, though i felt it would be better to discuss this in public rather than start a flame war.
additionally, i have added back the piece on blackwell's failure to disclose the names of those who donated more than $100. i incorrectly interpreted the article, but i find it discouraging that the approach was to delete the entire bit rather than make the few minor corrections needed. the purpose of wikipedia is not to cherry pick facts that are consistent with a certain POV. the piece i added was not an attack on blackwell, it was factual and implicated blackwell and all of his competition in committing the same offense. Car phone 19:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
ajdz why did you delete wholesale the portion of the article dealing with possible illegal campaigning done for blackwell by the two churches? this DIRECTLY relates to blackwell's campaign. it is not as if these people decided to do this on their own and blackwell had nothing to do with it. a member of HIS CAMPAIGN wrote the email which was circulated. information about an ongoing IRS investigation into the potential influence of blackwell's campaign over non-profit organization IS important. this is not a page FOR blackwell, it is a page ABOUT him 68.76.46.32 00:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph is very suspicious:
It claims to have a clear-cut case of election fraud, but a year and a half later there is no conclusion, no follow-up. Was there a lawsuit? Prosecutors that didn't think it was worth prosecuting? The absence of any follow-up seems to imply that the legal analysis is completely wrong, but that it could take an expert in Ohio electoral law to notice that. -- Ajdz 05:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I dug up Ohio Revised Code Title XXXV Elections, Sec. 3503.26:
The paragraph is ambiguous since it puts a date on the accusation, but not on when the act actually occurred. The law cited seems to be about one type of election records (registration lists), not all of them (like ballots, tabulations, etc), but this is not explained. There's also a pretty notable 33-day window when people can be kept away without a problem. The sources given are incredibly biased, but also too vague to know what is really going on. -- Ajdz 06:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section in question after seven days without comment. -- Ajdz 04:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Kudos to those who have worked on this article. It has improved quite a lot since I last looked at it. I'd be inclined to agree with some of those above that the material on the 2004 election ought to be elsewhere, say an article on the 2004 election in general or a special one about the allegations in Ohio. Keep up the good work. PedanticallySpeaking 17:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
contrary to the modus operandi of some here, i would like to propose a deletion before i go ahead and do it. this article has been tagged as one which has "unsourced statements." i personally have added 26(!) sources to this article which leaves with with the feeling that this a largely undeserved tag. if anyone believes this tag still applies, please point out the offending passages and they will be corrected (deleted or sourced). otherwise i will remove this tag. 68.76.46.37 21:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
i have been very civil with the harsh editing my submissions have been subjected to. there have been several complete deletions of LARGE blocs of text by the user adjz because they are not "notable" or "important" enough in his mind.
allow me to take a moment to refresh you all on wikipedia's policy of deletion. it should only occur if the information is a duplication (which it is not), patent nonsense (i write in complete sentences), copyright violations (again, not the case), inaccuracy (the material i write is based on accredited newspaper sources, generally several different ones).
the final issue is of irrelevancy. this one is more tricky to deal with. adjz seems to think that a lot of stuff (and interestingly, only the negative stuff) doesn't belong in this article. take for example my recent edit adding information about blackwells office releasing the social security numbers of millions of people twice in two months. this directly relates to blackwell, as it was his office that made the errors. it is a big deal, both from the privacy concerns standpoint and the fact that a federal lawsuit was filed and that blackwell may have to notify millions of people that his office let their private info out, a month after he promised that he would fix the problem. it is also relevant to his campaign. it is a major point being made by petro, the subject of dozens of newspaper articles and a big talking point in tv ads. this event is playing a role in blackwells campaign. furthermore, if he does have to send out the notification of accidental release letters, it will likely occur at a crucial point in his campaign (i am assuming he will win the primary). voters will certainly have a strong reaction when they receive a letter in the mail from one of the candidiates apoligizing for releasing their SSN number.
thus, that whole paragraph is relevant to the issue at hand. however, it was deleted COMPLETELY, within hours of it being posted. according to the wikipedia policies you should avoid at all costs deleting large portions of articles, particularly when it is done to make a point beyond the scope of wikipedia. adjz, i understand that you are a big fan of blackwell, however, you may not censor accurate, relevant, sourced information out of a biography.
furthermore, it is contrary to the whole concept of a "community" to delete things you dont like or agree with. if you truly have a problem, publicly address it and ask for the input of many people. blackwell is an american politician, thus transitively stands for democracy. it is ironic that you are taking the tactics of communists (ever hear of the "cultural revolution?) to remove the information that you dont think is relevant. there is nothing so special about you that you are the one who decides what belongs and what doesnt. i know i certainly am not, that is why i am appealing to the entire community for their input and discussion in this matter. 68.76.46.37 04:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Anyone with knowledge of his early life or who wants to do some research, that section needs expansion, and your contributions will be welcomed and are encouraged. Kevin Baas talk 20:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Here are two good sources of info:
Kevin Baas talk 22:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Baas talk 13:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
http://www.clubforgrowth.org/aboutus/?subsec=0&id=122
Club for Growth
Board of Directors
KEN BLACKWELL, Cincinnati, OH —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.172.184.121 (
talk)
20:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Any objection to creating a new article to the discussion of the merits and alternatives to the "TEL" and abbreviating the discussion here? TheronJ 16:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The comment by Rkevins82 was surprising. The ballot Issue to amend the OH constitution was withdrawn a long time ago, back in May shortly after the primary. This is alluded to in the Legislative TEL discussion, but I was surprised to now notice it was not stated explicitly. This is a key simple fact, yet lacking in the article. TheronJ wants to discuss opinions -- merits and alternatives -- about Ohio's TEL (or perhaps the TEL concept overall, since it is not unique to Ohio), yet the current Wikipedia content shows you aren't getting the basic facts correct. Wikipedia really needs to quit looking for opportunities to include opinions -- merits and alternatives -- and instead stick to encyclopedic facts. With its current practices, Wikipedia does not deserve to promote political opinions as a 501c(3); it should switch to the political donations category.
Perhaps you might actually get the TEL content correct if you shorten it. Certainly do NOT add to it until it is shortened and verified. Errors include the following: - It's debatable what to even call it. Suggestion is OH TEL 2006 Issue. It was proposed not by Blackwell but by a group of people, with support from Buckeye Institute and thousands of petition signers. While Blackwell did promote it extensively, it is NOT his TEL anymore than the Legislative version is his. The legislative version is sometimes known as Legis-TEL. I expect new OH TEL's will be forthcoming, so the legal year of each will need to be kept with the name, as the TEL concept evolves here in Ohio. - The "rationale" mentions only the limitation on state spending. (TABOR only limited state spending.) The major problem with OH-TEL-06 was that it also wanted to limit Local government spending. This is not mentioned in the rationale, a serious omission. I think there was also a fixed number amount, but would have to look it up, in addition to inflation+population option. - The "criticisms" doesn't mention a key complaint by Republicans, once they saw the actual text. There was a debate about "electors" and what it meant for how spending is approved by vote of electors, the representatives of the people or direct democracy vote, or direct vote AND must be more than 50% of not just voter electors but of all registered voter-electors. - The criticisms quote many folks who didn't like it, yet the rationale doesn't quote a similar number of supporters; e.g. how many signatures were submitted on the petitions and quotes from the group members or their leaders who gathered the signatures. - Alternatives: Petro called his plan the CAP. You never mention it. - The legislation replacement section reads like a newspaper article from the days when those events were occuring (and, in fact, the content dates to that time frame). There is no reason for an encyclopedia to continue to have this amount of length on one piece of legislation that Blackwell could not even vote for. This section should be only a few sentences, not paragraphs. - "It still remains unclear as to whether the amendment proposal can be legally removed from the Ohio ballot" -> It's apparently been removed from the ballot. This illustrates Wikipedia's inability to have reliable periodic updates; rather stuff gets added when an issue is hot and topical, but then gets left in a partial state. See if the news articles on Legis-Tel are still at www.onnews.com, then search on TEL. - You mention an analysis by some Cleveland Center, but never mention the Buckeye Institute analysis. - Last TEL section says "they approved the bill only because it’s replacing the TEL amendment," yet the first TEL paragraph still leaves the reader, e.g. Rkevins82, to think the issue will still be on the ballot. This illustrates a problem with simple additions, the article allows getting longer, instead of a holistic view of an article's content. - A key problem with the Legis-TEL is that it only limits "appropriations", the planned budget, not actual spending. This is a loophole, but this tidbit may not belong in Blackwell's article.
Summary: I object to a Wikipedia opinion ("discusson") article about pros and cons ("merits and alternatives") of the TEL concept and/or of Ohio's 2006 Ballot TEL and Legislative TEL. Wikipedia should stick to facts, not be a place for publicly funded Op-Eds. Lots and lots of Wikipedia content should be on privately owned blog pages and newspapers, not here in a so-called "encyclopedia".
My version of an Edit Summary for TheronJ, per 21 Sep history: Shortening the article and improving the NPOV.
Thank you to TheronJ for shortening the Ohio TEL discussion. I was reluctant to do so myself, as I have a bias (conflict of interest?) of being for TABOR (state only limits) yet against OH's 2006 TEL (I oppose state-imposed limits on us locals, and the loong text -- how the local limits would be computed and applied -- was poor, especially for our Constitution). I voted for Blackwell in the primary somewhat as a positive referendum on the TEL concept, and also my perception of him as the anti-establishment' candidate and fiscal conservative. FWIW, I don't know who I'll be voting for in the primary.
My edit summary, to TheronJ or other editors: - I corrected some ballot issue facts: added "and local". Yikes, this is an important element, but the politicians and news accounts are often missing it or glossing over it. I added the fixed 3.5%; yikes, this is also important, since it is part of the formula. (I am extremely disheartened at the poor quality of the OH TEL coverage, here and elsewhere, that the OH version of the TEL formula is reported wrong. I expect the poor coverage will continue for the ME and NE and other states that are considering their own versions of TABOR, now known as TEL.) - TheronJ's version kept the Strickland reaction comments, but that begs for adding the reactions of the two other opponents: Peirce and Fitrakis. It could also beg for adding the reactions of pro-Blackwell primary voters (yet anti-TEL local) and pro-Petro voters (yet pro-TEL). My impression is that TEL and Legis-TEL are taking an increasing lesser role in the general campaign, so it's better to simply leave out long quotes about Legis-TEL reaction. Put reaction quotes and comments on the opponent's pages, if an opponent is attempting to make Legis-TEL the top issue; e.g. Strickland is campaigning on multiple Blackwell alleged flip-flops, not just TEL. My perception is that Legis-TEL is a footnote fact, for now. The major campaigns are debating the macro issue of taxation as well as their policies for government regulations, education, and health care. 66.213.90.2 17:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
This article has long been at Ken Blackwell, but was recently moved to John Kenneth Blackwell. Wikipedia policy on this subject is found in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names): We are to use the most common unambiguous name of a person, such as Bill Clinton. In this case, Blackwell's campaign website calls him "Ken Blackwell". That also seems to be the form most common in the media. The issue of finding the article is addressed by putting redirects at other forms of the name, so John Kenneth Blackwell is properly a redirect here. JamesMLane t c 14:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Im going to remove sections involving provisional ballots as the lawsuit was ultimately denied. No need to spend so much time expounding a theory that was found to have no merit. Bonewah ( talk) 10:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
If an individual declares that such individual is a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which the individual desires to vote and that the individual is eligible to vote in an election for Federal office, but the name of the individual does not appear on the official list of eligible voters for the polling place or an election official asserts that the individual is not eligible to vote, such individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional ballot.... (quoted on page 3 of the Sixth Circuit's decision)
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What about the suit for his illegal campaigning in churches? The man is evil and has no right being Govenor.
Is it true he was cochair of ... I can't even type his name ... the "reelection" campaign in Ohio? Kwantus 22:20, 2004 Nov 4 (UTC)
(lawsuit pdf), also see [1]. Kevin Baas | talk 20:11, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)
[2] - letter asking for illegal campaign contributions
Kevin Baas
talk 21:37, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)
[3] use of seal on said letter is illegal.
Title 18 of the U.S. Code, as revised in January 1971, prohibits use of the likeness of the Great Seal or any facsimile in “any advertisement, circular, book, pamphlet, or other publication, play, motion picture, telecast, or other production” for the purpose of conveying a false impression of sponsorship or approval by the U.S. Government under threat of a fine of not more than $250 or imprisonment of not more than 6 months, or both.
Kevin Baas talk 19:00, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)
He is on the Board of Directors for the conservative Club for Growth.
This article is, on the whole, extremely unbalanced.
1) It repeats numerous charges made against Blackwell by Democratic advocacy groups and party members, but provides very few links to where those charges are laid out, providing no way for readers to check for themselves on the nature of the claims and reliability of the sources.
2) In several instances the partisan source of these charges are NOT acknowledged. We are told that "many" have made a complaint/accusation. This may be factually correct, but in context it misleads, suggesting that people of various political stripes agree on the criticism, when in fact, all the accusers are strongly partisan. (Note: the partisan nature of the sources neither proves nor disproves their validity. But it is only fair to let the reader KNOW the political commitments of these folks.)
3) The charges alone are listed. Very little is said about the arguments Blackwell and others have made for his position and actions.
Major case in point: the October 21 district court decision against Blackwell was cited (together with a gratuitous partisan remark from the judge that shed NO light on the arguments or merits of either side in the case). But there was no mention, much less a link to the appeals court's reversal of that decision.
Again, the
4)It treats strongly partisan web sites from one side as reliable news sources, And, once again, there is not even a mention of sources that dispute the claims.
5) The language is repeatedly slanted to characterize(or rather caricature) Blackwell, when the basic facts could be laid out very simply, leaving the reader to judge.
You are, of course, entitled to your own POV on Blackwell. And you are welcome to publish it on DU forums, dKospedia and numerous blogs. But the point of THIS web site on a subject where there is a political dispute OUGHT to be to lay out the essential facts and the points made by BOTH sides, and to point people to the original sources that can help them arrive at their own judgment.
A challenge (for starters):
a) clearly state WHO has made particular charges. Try using ACTIVE voice and including clearly identified SUBJECTS "[Democrats/PN/...]charge", rather than "came under fire" (from WHOM?) and "Many have charged..."
b) clearly SOURCE the claims -- provide LINKS
c)attempt to find and include the responses Blackwell and his supporters have made to the charges and provide links to these as well (and "from their own mouths", not citations in DailyKos, et.al.)
-- BruceJohnson 16:59, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
66.192.197.20 made a series of very valuable edits. In the process, the editor may have deleted other valuable edits. 66.192.197.20 was criticized for editing as an Anon, but Wiki policy gives them the same rights as anyone else as long as they are not vandalizing. Given the extent of the edits and valuable contribution, the best approach is use this as a basis and continue editing, including using any old text that is appropriate. -- Noitall July 2, 2005 14:19 (UTC)
Great article, with many citations:
http://www.harpers.org/index.html
highly POV, but a lot to add to an NPOV article. Dsol 01:29, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
A gentleman from Ohio just brought up an important point: This article is lacking any discussion of the Coingate or Noe scandals. I haven't heard of the "Noe" scandal, but Coingate is pretty well known in politically educated circles outside of Ohio. If someone is fairly knowledgable on coingate and how K.B. (and the Ohio republican party - in the broader picture) is involved in it, i believe that would be a great contribution to the article, and interesting and important for readers like the gentleman who came here to find info on that topic. Kevin baas 18:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Coingate and Noe
I've heard Blackwell's name associated with the scandal, and he was a major player in bush's election campaign, which some of the money was used for, so there's a plausible link. However, I can't recall ever reading any material claim that he was in some way involved in coingate, though then again I haven't read much on the topic. Kevin Baas talk 18:57, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
This article has too little actual info. about Mr. Blackwell, most of it is about the election "scandal", this by itself may be POV as the disputes about Ohio in 2004 were certainly not on par with Florida in 2000 as this article would imply, only the fringe left floats conspiracy theories on this matter, it isn't taken seriously by mainstream politicos of either U.S. party...
Feel free to read any of my articles on the subject. I interviewed a lot of the folks on the ground, probably more than any other reporter, including Carlo LoParo, Blackwell's spokesperson, and two of the County Election Chairs as well as an expert on Ohio's election law, the attorney for the Kerry campaign and the person in charge of mobilizing the greens efforts to observe the recount. One of my articles is already listed in Wikipedia under the general election 2004 controversies page for general interest. In the interests of full disclosure, I am a Democrat and currently do most of my writing on the editorial side and they tend to be quite partisan and pointed. At the time of election 2004, however, I was on the news side of things and determined to get the story right whatever my personal feelings. In fact, after interviewing LoParo, I began to think that there was no "There" there regarding the controversies. Problem was that he referred me to county election chairs, several of whom were Democrats and then specified two in particular that I should interview to remove any doubts about the election in Ohio from my mind. Well, when I interviewed those two, they completely contradicted what LoParo and Blackwell had been saying, had numerous complaints, and gave examples of several items that could definitely have added up to significant swings of votes. Then the recount was improperly conducted by a huge amount of the counties and I began to wonder what are these people hiding? I mean, if you want to kill a controversy like this dead, wouldnt you conduct a thorough recount exactly like the law requires? Ohio had a very impressive recount law that I noted would have cleared up any conspiracy theories either way if conducted according to the law, but at least 17 counties completely ignored the law. Anyway, here are the relevant articles I wrote on the subject in chronological order (At least I think I included all of them):
12-12-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Dec/EEN41bcaddeb20b7.html
12-13-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Dec/EEN41bdf9f1ad056.html
12-14-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Dec/EEN41bf5ef4d50b2.html
12-20-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2004/Dec/EEN41c754d14d6d9.html
1-4-04 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2005/Jan/EEN41daafcecb050.html
1-7-05 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2005/Jan/EEN41defee5accf6.html
Please feel free to email me at sleser001@yahoo.com for more information/discussion.
Why is there a "List of legal suits"? It doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose to simply list lawsuits against a politician in his official capacity. Also, many of the links are no longer valid. -- Ajdz 06:57, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Kevin Baas talk 20:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else have a comment here? --
Ajdz
22:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but we Ohioans are too busy talking to each other to bother editing here!
I'm sure you've reviewed the above history. Every so often, someone has come along asking for a less biased article. I asked for a neutral article back last winter. (I didn't know what a Talk page was then. I editted into the article: This is biased. Much of it could/should be in an "OH Secretary of State" article or something, not Mr Blackwell; especially any lawsuits against the Office of SOS. The topical coverage is out of proportion: the election allegations over-covered versus other relevant biographical content. Et cetera. In closing, I voted in Ohio and thought we Ohioans did just fine, so I can't be neutral. Please fix, whoever you Wiki people are.) Well, as you can see, little was done.
I check back occasionally, here and a few other articles, to see if Wikipedia is getting any better. Wiki and political person's pages are perhaps the best example of why the lack of author accountability is a serious flaw in the Wikipedia business model. (BTW, I read that Wiki is a tax-deductible charity. I'm using 'business model' here in the generic sense of how an organization or process operates.)
Time to go read some useful Ohio local blogs.
Yes, other views? Is there anybody out there? Kevin Baas talk 22:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
As Ohio Secretary of State, Blackwell has been a party to many election-related lawsuits. As Ohio Attorney General, Petro has/had the responsibility to defend the suits. Some of the suits were/will be decided by Ohio appointed judges and Ohio's elected Supreme Court. (In summary, what's the point of this list of legal suits here, in a person's individual page, rather than in an Ohio elections page?)
he looks better arab. besides, why should truth be more noble than falsehood, or upholding the wikipedia guidelines somehow more preferable than ignoring them? -- Froth
what is the objection to the word controversial? i realize that nearly any issue can be classified as "controversial" if even a single person objects to it. however, in the case of blackwell's support of the ammendment to strictly outline the definition of marriage the word "controversial" clearly applies. to adjz who deleted it...did you live in ohio in 2004? did you somehow miss the protests, news stories, newspaper articles and widespread tv commercials for either side? i believe that by removing the modifier "controversial" you are reducing the significance of mr. blackwell's support. i would like to change the article back to the way it was, though i felt it would be better to discuss this in public rather than start a flame war.
additionally, i have added back the piece on blackwell's failure to disclose the names of those who donated more than $100. i incorrectly interpreted the article, but i find it discouraging that the approach was to delete the entire bit rather than make the few minor corrections needed. the purpose of wikipedia is not to cherry pick facts that are consistent with a certain POV. the piece i added was not an attack on blackwell, it was factual and implicated blackwell and all of his competition in committing the same offense. Car phone 19:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
ajdz why did you delete wholesale the portion of the article dealing with possible illegal campaigning done for blackwell by the two churches? this DIRECTLY relates to blackwell's campaign. it is not as if these people decided to do this on their own and blackwell had nothing to do with it. a member of HIS CAMPAIGN wrote the email which was circulated. information about an ongoing IRS investigation into the potential influence of blackwell's campaign over non-profit organization IS important. this is not a page FOR blackwell, it is a page ABOUT him 68.76.46.32 00:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph is very suspicious:
It claims to have a clear-cut case of election fraud, but a year and a half later there is no conclusion, no follow-up. Was there a lawsuit? Prosecutors that didn't think it was worth prosecuting? The absence of any follow-up seems to imply that the legal analysis is completely wrong, but that it could take an expert in Ohio electoral law to notice that. -- Ajdz 05:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I dug up Ohio Revised Code Title XXXV Elections, Sec. 3503.26:
The paragraph is ambiguous since it puts a date on the accusation, but not on when the act actually occurred. The law cited seems to be about one type of election records (registration lists), not all of them (like ballots, tabulations, etc), but this is not explained. There's also a pretty notable 33-day window when people can be kept away without a problem. The sources given are incredibly biased, but also too vague to know what is really going on. -- Ajdz 06:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section in question after seven days without comment. -- Ajdz 04:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Kudos to those who have worked on this article. It has improved quite a lot since I last looked at it. I'd be inclined to agree with some of those above that the material on the 2004 election ought to be elsewhere, say an article on the 2004 election in general or a special one about the allegations in Ohio. Keep up the good work. PedanticallySpeaking 17:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
contrary to the modus operandi of some here, i would like to propose a deletion before i go ahead and do it. this article has been tagged as one which has "unsourced statements." i personally have added 26(!) sources to this article which leaves with with the feeling that this a largely undeserved tag. if anyone believes this tag still applies, please point out the offending passages and they will be corrected (deleted or sourced). otherwise i will remove this tag. 68.76.46.37 21:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
i have been very civil with the harsh editing my submissions have been subjected to. there have been several complete deletions of LARGE blocs of text by the user adjz because they are not "notable" or "important" enough in his mind.
allow me to take a moment to refresh you all on wikipedia's policy of deletion. it should only occur if the information is a duplication (which it is not), patent nonsense (i write in complete sentences), copyright violations (again, not the case), inaccuracy (the material i write is based on accredited newspaper sources, generally several different ones).
the final issue is of irrelevancy. this one is more tricky to deal with. adjz seems to think that a lot of stuff (and interestingly, only the negative stuff) doesn't belong in this article. take for example my recent edit adding information about blackwells office releasing the social security numbers of millions of people twice in two months. this directly relates to blackwell, as it was his office that made the errors. it is a big deal, both from the privacy concerns standpoint and the fact that a federal lawsuit was filed and that blackwell may have to notify millions of people that his office let their private info out, a month after he promised that he would fix the problem. it is also relevant to his campaign. it is a major point being made by petro, the subject of dozens of newspaper articles and a big talking point in tv ads. this event is playing a role in blackwells campaign. furthermore, if he does have to send out the notification of accidental release letters, it will likely occur at a crucial point in his campaign (i am assuming he will win the primary). voters will certainly have a strong reaction when they receive a letter in the mail from one of the candidiates apoligizing for releasing their SSN number.
thus, that whole paragraph is relevant to the issue at hand. however, it was deleted COMPLETELY, within hours of it being posted. according to the wikipedia policies you should avoid at all costs deleting large portions of articles, particularly when it is done to make a point beyond the scope of wikipedia. adjz, i understand that you are a big fan of blackwell, however, you may not censor accurate, relevant, sourced information out of a biography.
furthermore, it is contrary to the whole concept of a "community" to delete things you dont like or agree with. if you truly have a problem, publicly address it and ask for the input of many people. blackwell is an american politician, thus transitively stands for democracy. it is ironic that you are taking the tactics of communists (ever hear of the "cultural revolution?) to remove the information that you dont think is relevant. there is nothing so special about you that you are the one who decides what belongs and what doesnt. i know i certainly am not, that is why i am appealing to the entire community for their input and discussion in this matter. 68.76.46.37 04:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Anyone with knowledge of his early life or who wants to do some research, that section needs expansion, and your contributions will be welcomed and are encouraged. Kevin Baas talk 20:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Here are two good sources of info:
Kevin Baas talk 22:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Baas talk 13:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
http://www.clubforgrowth.org/aboutus/?subsec=0&id=122
Club for Growth
Board of Directors
KEN BLACKWELL, Cincinnati, OH —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.172.184.121 (
talk)
20:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Any objection to creating a new article to the discussion of the merits and alternatives to the "TEL" and abbreviating the discussion here? TheronJ 16:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The comment by Rkevins82 was surprising. The ballot Issue to amend the OH constitution was withdrawn a long time ago, back in May shortly after the primary. This is alluded to in the Legislative TEL discussion, but I was surprised to now notice it was not stated explicitly. This is a key simple fact, yet lacking in the article. TheronJ wants to discuss opinions -- merits and alternatives -- about Ohio's TEL (or perhaps the TEL concept overall, since it is not unique to Ohio), yet the current Wikipedia content shows you aren't getting the basic facts correct. Wikipedia really needs to quit looking for opportunities to include opinions -- merits and alternatives -- and instead stick to encyclopedic facts. With its current practices, Wikipedia does not deserve to promote political opinions as a 501c(3); it should switch to the political donations category.
Perhaps you might actually get the TEL content correct if you shorten it. Certainly do NOT add to it until it is shortened and verified. Errors include the following: - It's debatable what to even call it. Suggestion is OH TEL 2006 Issue. It was proposed not by Blackwell but by a group of people, with support from Buckeye Institute and thousands of petition signers. While Blackwell did promote it extensively, it is NOT his TEL anymore than the Legislative version is his. The legislative version is sometimes known as Legis-TEL. I expect new OH TEL's will be forthcoming, so the legal year of each will need to be kept with the name, as the TEL concept evolves here in Ohio. - The "rationale" mentions only the limitation on state spending. (TABOR only limited state spending.) The major problem with OH-TEL-06 was that it also wanted to limit Local government spending. This is not mentioned in the rationale, a serious omission. I think there was also a fixed number amount, but would have to look it up, in addition to inflation+population option. - The "criticisms" doesn't mention a key complaint by Republicans, once they saw the actual text. There was a debate about "electors" and what it meant for how spending is approved by vote of electors, the representatives of the people or direct democracy vote, or direct vote AND must be more than 50% of not just voter electors but of all registered voter-electors. - The criticisms quote many folks who didn't like it, yet the rationale doesn't quote a similar number of supporters; e.g. how many signatures were submitted on the petitions and quotes from the group members or their leaders who gathered the signatures. - Alternatives: Petro called his plan the CAP. You never mention it. - The legislation replacement section reads like a newspaper article from the days when those events were occuring (and, in fact, the content dates to that time frame). There is no reason for an encyclopedia to continue to have this amount of length on one piece of legislation that Blackwell could not even vote for. This section should be only a few sentences, not paragraphs. - "It still remains unclear as to whether the amendment proposal can be legally removed from the Ohio ballot" -> It's apparently been removed from the ballot. This illustrates Wikipedia's inability to have reliable periodic updates; rather stuff gets added when an issue is hot and topical, but then gets left in a partial state. See if the news articles on Legis-Tel are still at www.onnews.com, then search on TEL. - You mention an analysis by some Cleveland Center, but never mention the Buckeye Institute analysis. - Last TEL section says "they approved the bill only because it’s replacing the TEL amendment," yet the first TEL paragraph still leaves the reader, e.g. Rkevins82, to think the issue will still be on the ballot. This illustrates a problem with simple additions, the article allows getting longer, instead of a holistic view of an article's content. - A key problem with the Legis-TEL is that it only limits "appropriations", the planned budget, not actual spending. This is a loophole, but this tidbit may not belong in Blackwell's article.
Summary: I object to a Wikipedia opinion ("discusson") article about pros and cons ("merits and alternatives") of the TEL concept and/or of Ohio's 2006 Ballot TEL and Legislative TEL. Wikipedia should stick to facts, not be a place for publicly funded Op-Eds. Lots and lots of Wikipedia content should be on privately owned blog pages and newspapers, not here in a so-called "encyclopedia".
My version of an Edit Summary for TheronJ, per 21 Sep history: Shortening the article and improving the NPOV.
Thank you to TheronJ for shortening the Ohio TEL discussion. I was reluctant to do so myself, as I have a bias (conflict of interest?) of being for TABOR (state only limits) yet against OH's 2006 TEL (I oppose state-imposed limits on us locals, and the loong text -- how the local limits would be computed and applied -- was poor, especially for our Constitution). I voted for Blackwell in the primary somewhat as a positive referendum on the TEL concept, and also my perception of him as the anti-establishment' candidate and fiscal conservative. FWIW, I don't know who I'll be voting for in the primary.
My edit summary, to TheronJ or other editors: - I corrected some ballot issue facts: added "and local". Yikes, this is an important element, but the politicians and news accounts are often missing it or glossing over it. I added the fixed 3.5%; yikes, this is also important, since it is part of the formula. (I am extremely disheartened at the poor quality of the OH TEL coverage, here and elsewhere, that the OH version of the TEL formula is reported wrong. I expect the poor coverage will continue for the ME and NE and other states that are considering their own versions of TABOR, now known as TEL.) - TheronJ's version kept the Strickland reaction comments, but that begs for adding the reactions of the two other opponents: Peirce and Fitrakis. It could also beg for adding the reactions of pro-Blackwell primary voters (yet anti-TEL local) and pro-Petro voters (yet pro-TEL). My impression is that TEL and Legis-TEL are taking an increasing lesser role in the general campaign, so it's better to simply leave out long quotes about Legis-TEL reaction. Put reaction quotes and comments on the opponent's pages, if an opponent is attempting to make Legis-TEL the top issue; e.g. Strickland is campaigning on multiple Blackwell alleged flip-flops, not just TEL. My perception is that Legis-TEL is a footnote fact, for now. The major campaigns are debating the macro issue of taxation as well as their policies for government regulations, education, and health care. 66.213.90.2 17:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
This article has long been at Ken Blackwell, but was recently moved to John Kenneth Blackwell. Wikipedia policy on this subject is found in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names): We are to use the most common unambiguous name of a person, such as Bill Clinton. In this case, Blackwell's campaign website calls him "Ken Blackwell". That also seems to be the form most common in the media. The issue of finding the article is addressed by putting redirects at other forms of the name, so John Kenneth Blackwell is properly a redirect here. JamesMLane t c 14:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Im going to remove sections involving provisional ballots as the lawsuit was ultimately denied. No need to spend so much time expounding a theory that was found to have no merit. Bonewah ( talk) 10:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
If an individual declares that such individual is a registered voter in the jurisdiction in which the individual desires to vote and that the individual is eligible to vote in an election for Federal office, but the name of the individual does not appear on the official list of eligible voters for the polling place or an election official asserts that the individual is not eligible to vote, such individual shall be permitted to cast a provisional ballot.... (quoted on page 3 of the Sixth Circuit's decision)
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