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Keep article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Made some chanegs to this page. More informative, with several links to monuments which support the definition C. Wilson 70.26.11.45 17:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
C. Wilson removed cleanup note. This page is accurate. CJ DUB 06:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Rewrite on the Development section. Looks like somebody had a try, but didn't do very good on the language or grammar, or even factual accuracy. Fixed it up and gave some good examples. CJ DUB 03:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
the article states that "bergfried" is a term for belfry. thats just wrong; it comes from "berg"= mountain and "Fried" for something that is fortified /walled in (Befrieded= eingezäunt /fenced around)). This should be changed, its just wrong language. cheers
While the "dungeon" has an additional meaning of "prison", the Dungeon article describes the same concept as keep; the articles should be merged. Duja ► 08:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Nope. The dungeon article needs to be written different is all. IMO it is poorly written and subject to frequent point edits. Note that the donjon/keep and dungeon are quite distinct. 13:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I've added a see also to reach the section on Japanese castle that touches upon the tenshaku, commonly called a "keep" in English. I was hesitant to add any lengthy discussion of the tenshaku to this here article, as it's a primarily European topic, and that's alright... I'm really quite on the fence about whether this is a WP:CSB issue, or whether it's truly a European topic and the fact that a Japanese structure happens to serve a similar purpose is mostly irrelevant. I think this is the best compromise for now... LordAmeth ( talk) 00:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The article was just moved to Keep (tower) without explanation in the edit summary or a discussion I can find. Certainly there is nothing here. What is the point behind this move? Nev1 ( talk) 20:09, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
I've gone through and had a go at expanding the article. I think I've captured the bulk of the French and English literature on the topic, and I think I've got the gist of the German work on this topic. I couldn't find much in Spanish, but I may have been looking in the wrong places. See what you think - it could no doubt use a good copy edit! Hchc2009 ( talk) 16:24, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I took out "a corruption of the Latin dominarium or lordship". *Dominariu would have given *dominaire in French, not donjon. The word donjon is not a "corruption", but a gallo-roman creation with the Latin dominus as root. The evolution of the word is well attested in the different medieval latin texts, see Du Cange [1]. All the etymology dictionary say about the same thing. see the article Dungeon as well. Nortmannus ( talk) 10:20, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Keeping the conversation together, the earlier bits from my talk page:
...
Please, I am not finished with that. I must take this out, that is a pure non-sense. Nortmannus ( talk) 09:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
....
(further from my talk page)
I've reverted the latest changes, because they're either unreferenced or seem to be running counter to the cited references. In particular:
If you think there's a problem with these, happy to chat further. Hchc2009 ( talk) 07:14, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Tower keep has been misused in this article to describe the 14th cen. generation of large residential keeps, to differentiate from other military structures.
The term "tower keep" is a term in the literature, and institutions such as English Heritage, to describe older 12th century keeps. R.A. Brown describes it as a Norman keep where the lords hall is stacked above the retainers hall. The contrasting arrangement, an earlier design, is called the "hall keep" where the retainer (great hall) and lord's hall are placed side by side. The archetype for the tower keep would be Rochester, whilst for a hall keep the best example is the White Tower, at the Tower of London. IIRC Brown considers all later military keeps after the 12th century, Rouen, Skenfrith; etc to be tower keeps.
Ingleton, 2012 provides an updated reference of the terminology: http://books.google.ca/books?id=muSelO__PQ8C&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=%22tower+keep%22+%22hall+keep%22&source=bl&ots=cSm_BKqce-&sig=IP_j3I1MGWSKPzPbjxDTp-voYEg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DHwLVNnLEoOgyAT394DIDg&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22tower%20keep%22%20%22hall%20keep%22&f=false
Here is another by Gravett, 2001 in reference to Colchester (hall keep) and Hedingham (tower keep): http://books.google.ca/books?id=CP7l8Exe8_IC&lpg=PA34&ots=pwNUSuprdH&dq=%22tower%20keep%22%20%22hall%20keep%22&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q=%22tower%20keep%22%20%22hall%20keep%22&f=false
If you look in the literature, you'll find most great 14th century keeps to be referred to as keeps, residential keeps, or sometimes tower houses. tks-- 65.92.18.49 ( talk) 22:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
It seems that this article only discusses castles in the UK, Iberia and France. Shouldn't it be expanded to include the rest of Europe? Castles were built all over Europe. Wannabe rockstar ( talk) 18:42, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Bergfrit. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 07:20, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Mastio. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 07:53, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Keep article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Keep has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Made some chanegs to this page. More informative, with several links to monuments which support the definition C. Wilson 70.26.11.45 17:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
C. Wilson removed cleanup note. This page is accurate. CJ DUB 06:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Rewrite on the Development section. Looks like somebody had a try, but didn't do very good on the language or grammar, or even factual accuracy. Fixed it up and gave some good examples. CJ DUB 03:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
the article states that "bergfried" is a term for belfry. thats just wrong; it comes from "berg"= mountain and "Fried" for something that is fortified /walled in (Befrieded= eingezäunt /fenced around)). This should be changed, its just wrong language. cheers
While the "dungeon" has an additional meaning of "prison", the Dungeon article describes the same concept as keep; the articles should be merged. Duja ► 08:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Nope. The dungeon article needs to be written different is all. IMO it is poorly written and subject to frequent point edits. Note that the donjon/keep and dungeon are quite distinct. 13:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I've added a see also to reach the section on Japanese castle that touches upon the tenshaku, commonly called a "keep" in English. I was hesitant to add any lengthy discussion of the tenshaku to this here article, as it's a primarily European topic, and that's alright... I'm really quite on the fence about whether this is a WP:CSB issue, or whether it's truly a European topic and the fact that a Japanese structure happens to serve a similar purpose is mostly irrelevant. I think this is the best compromise for now... LordAmeth ( talk) 00:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The article was just moved to Keep (tower) without explanation in the edit summary or a discussion I can find. Certainly there is nothing here. What is the point behind this move? Nev1 ( talk) 20:09, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
I've gone through and had a go at expanding the article. I think I've captured the bulk of the French and English literature on the topic, and I think I've got the gist of the German work on this topic. I couldn't find much in Spanish, but I may have been looking in the wrong places. See what you think - it could no doubt use a good copy edit! Hchc2009 ( talk) 16:24, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I took out "a corruption of the Latin dominarium or lordship". *Dominariu would have given *dominaire in French, not donjon. The word donjon is not a "corruption", but a gallo-roman creation with the Latin dominus as root. The evolution of the word is well attested in the different medieval latin texts, see Du Cange [1]. All the etymology dictionary say about the same thing. see the article Dungeon as well. Nortmannus ( talk) 10:20, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Keeping the conversation together, the earlier bits from my talk page:
...
Please, I am not finished with that. I must take this out, that is a pure non-sense. Nortmannus ( talk) 09:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
....
(further from my talk page)
I've reverted the latest changes, because they're either unreferenced or seem to be running counter to the cited references. In particular:
If you think there's a problem with these, happy to chat further. Hchc2009 ( talk) 07:14, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
Tower keep has been misused in this article to describe the 14th cen. generation of large residential keeps, to differentiate from other military structures.
The term "tower keep" is a term in the literature, and institutions such as English Heritage, to describe older 12th century keeps. R.A. Brown describes it as a Norman keep where the lords hall is stacked above the retainers hall. The contrasting arrangement, an earlier design, is called the "hall keep" where the retainer (great hall) and lord's hall are placed side by side. The archetype for the tower keep would be Rochester, whilst for a hall keep the best example is the White Tower, at the Tower of London. IIRC Brown considers all later military keeps after the 12th century, Rouen, Skenfrith; etc to be tower keeps.
Ingleton, 2012 provides an updated reference of the terminology: http://books.google.ca/books?id=muSelO__PQ8C&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=%22tower+keep%22+%22hall+keep%22&source=bl&ots=cSm_BKqce-&sig=IP_j3I1MGWSKPzPbjxDTp-voYEg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DHwLVNnLEoOgyAT394DIDg&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22tower%20keep%22%20%22hall%20keep%22&f=false
Here is another by Gravett, 2001 in reference to Colchester (hall keep) and Hedingham (tower keep): http://books.google.ca/books?id=CP7l8Exe8_IC&lpg=PA34&ots=pwNUSuprdH&dq=%22tower%20keep%22%20%22hall%20keep%22&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q=%22tower%20keep%22%20%22hall%20keep%22&f=false
If you look in the literature, you'll find most great 14th century keeps to be referred to as keeps, residential keeps, or sometimes tower houses. tks-- 65.92.18.49 ( talk) 22:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
It seems that this article only discusses castles in the UK, Iberia and France. Shouldn't it be expanded to include the rest of Europe? Castles were built all over Europe. Wannabe rockstar ( talk) 18:42, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Bergfrit. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 07:20, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Mastio. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 07:53, 1 April 2020 (UTC)