![]() | The contents of the Qadas page were merged into Kedesh on 12 November 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article assumes that there was only one Kedesh with an undisputed location, which is simply not the case. See for instance [1] [2] [3] [4] I'm busy right now but hopefully will have time to fix this in the next few days. Doug Weller talk 10:49, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
User:Doug Weller, I will slowly work to bring down sources for your review, sources taken from C.R. Conder's & H.H. Kitchener's magnum opus, "Survey of Western Palestine," as also other primary sources. For a start, though, here is an online source I saw today that might help set straight a few things. Kedesh Naphtali. Be well. Davidbena ( talk) 10:54, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
The article suggests that Barak was buried here, which is location 1 in the Zondervan Bible Dictionary. [5] - this is in Naphtali.
But that source also discusses another city that might be the city Joshuah capured, a "Lwvitical city within the tribal territory of Issachar, allotted to the Gershonites (1 Chr. 6:72; contrast Kedesh of Naphtali, v. 76). In the parallel list (Josh. 21:28), the place occupied bv Kedesh is taken bv the name Kishion. Because the reference to Kedesh in Josh. 12:22 seems to point to a citv in the vicinity of Taanach, Megiddo, and Jokneam (i.e., in or near the plain of Esdraelon), some have argued that this Kcdcsh is the one in Issachar, not Kcdcsh in Upper Galilee (see #1 above), and that it should be identified with Tell Abu Qudeis, a small mound between Taanach and Megiddo. Others argue that this site is too far W to have been included in the territory of Issachar. It has also been suggested that Kedesh in Issachar was Barak’s hometown (Jdg. 4:6) and/or the place where Heber the Kenite lived (4:11; see #2 above). - you need to read the entry to see the complexities.
Eric Cline discussing Barak's Kedesh [6] "Another sticky problem involves the location of Barak’s hometown of Kedesh in Naphtali, where Barak and Deborah assembled their men. Where was this place? Like Harosheth-ha-goiim (discussed earlier in this chapter), Kedesh has been located by scholars in a dizzying number of possible places. A favorite early identification located the site of Kedesh some seven miles northwest of Hazor in Upper Galilee, by Lake Huleh. This seems rather unlikely, because it is too far from the action in the Jezreel Valley, and because Deborah and Barak would probably not have assembled, or been able to assemble, their army so close to the Canaanite capital city of Hazor. Another favored suggestion has identified Kedesh with Tel Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis), a small mound located only a few miles north of Taanach in the Jezreel Valley itself. However, this location also seems unlikely, because it is too close to Harosheth-ha-goiim and Sisera’s forces, regardless of where Harosheth is to be located in the Jezreel Valley. Once again, Deborah and Barak would probably not have assembled, or been able to assemble, their army so close to Sisera’s camp. Of all the suggested possibilities for the location of Kedesh, the most likely is the site of Khirbet Qadis (Horvat Qedesh), located near the Sea of Galilee on the steep slopes of the mountains between the plain of Jezreel and the Jordan River. This site would have been on the southern border of Naphtali..." Doug Weller talk 11:40, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Doug is to be commended for bringing to our attention that the identification of the biblical site of Kadesh/Kedesh ascribed to Barak and Jael is, in fact, disputed. I'm not sure, however, if we are capable of rendering a verdict as to who here is correct, but we can and ought to mention here that, with respect to Barak's Kedesh, the place is disputed. Page 207 in Conder & Kitchener writes specifically about the site of Kedesh in Upper Galilee and brings down the following anecdote: " Isaac Chelo (1334 A.D.) places the tombs of Barak and Deborah here. Gerson of Scarmela (1561) adds Jael to the number." The matter remains a dispute and should be written as such. Davidbena ( talk) 13:52, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Putting everything into perspective: The problem with the identification of Tell Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis) in Lower Galilee (in the southern part of the Jezreel Valley) as Barak's burial place is that it is not located in the tribal territory of Naphtali, but rather in Issachar, while the Hebrew Bible tells us explicitly in Judges 4: vss. 6, 10-11, that Barak's place of residence was in Kedesh of Naphtali. Furthermore, the Hebrew Bible does not tell us where Barak was buried, although it is more logical to think that when a man dies his corpse would be carried to be buried in or near his native town or village.
What I think may have caused historical geographers to guess about his burial place being in Tell Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis) in Lower Galilee, a site located on the south edge of the Jezreel Valley, is that Barak was commanded, in Judges ch. 4, to fight Jabin's army, a Canaanite army that was under the command of Jabin's general, Sisera, and which army would be lured to Mount Tabor, near the Jezreel Valley, and where Jabin's army of 900 iron-clad chariots would be defeated. Reminiscent of this episode is Psalm 83:10, where we read: "Do Thou unto them as unto Midian; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook Kishon; [vs. 11] Who were destroyed at En-dor; they became as dung for the earth."
Even though there was, by a striking coincidence, that other village by the name of Kadesh/Tell Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis) in the southern part of the Jezreel Valley, let no man be deceived thereby. It is still not to be confused with the Kedesh in Naphtali (note the distinction!), Barak's place of nativity. Moreover, the Hebrew Bible makes it clear in Judges 4:11 that the Kedesh of Naphtali was near to a place called "Elon Beṣaʿananayim" (Heb. אלון בצעננים), meaning "The Plain of the Marshes", which translation is based on Rashi's interpretation of the words in Judges 4:11, and where he writes there מריש"ק, or what is the Old French word "maresc", now called in French marécage (marais) = marshland; swamp (see: Sefer Targum Ha-La'az, by Dayan I. Gukovitzki, London 1992, pp. 69, 130). The evidence is clear that we are referring here to the region in the far-north of Israel, where is the Hula Lake (Semechonitis) – a place of marshes (before it was drained), and where Hazor (the city of Jabin) was located only 10 kilometers away from Kedesh of Naphtali. Davidbena ( talk) 23:04, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
User:Doug Weller, shalom. Pursuant to your reminder that the identification of the site known as "Kedesh of Naphtali" is disputed by academics, we have therefore added a new section in the article outlining the matter of this dispute. See Kedesh#Kedesh of Naphtali in the current article. If you feel that it meets your requirements of having the dispute mentioned in the article, then it might be best now to remove the templates at the top of the page. Davidbena ( talk) 05:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
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![]() | The contents of the Qadas page were merged into Kedesh on 12 November 2023. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article assumes that there was only one Kedesh with an undisputed location, which is simply not the case. See for instance [1] [2] [3] [4] I'm busy right now but hopefully will have time to fix this in the next few days. Doug Weller talk 10:49, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
User:Doug Weller, I will slowly work to bring down sources for your review, sources taken from C.R. Conder's & H.H. Kitchener's magnum opus, "Survey of Western Palestine," as also other primary sources. For a start, though, here is an online source I saw today that might help set straight a few things. Kedesh Naphtali. Be well. Davidbena ( talk) 10:54, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
The article suggests that Barak was buried here, which is location 1 in the Zondervan Bible Dictionary. [5] - this is in Naphtali.
But that source also discusses another city that might be the city Joshuah capured, a "Lwvitical city within the tribal territory of Issachar, allotted to the Gershonites (1 Chr. 6:72; contrast Kedesh of Naphtali, v. 76). In the parallel list (Josh. 21:28), the place occupied bv Kedesh is taken bv the name Kishion. Because the reference to Kedesh in Josh. 12:22 seems to point to a citv in the vicinity of Taanach, Megiddo, and Jokneam (i.e., in or near the plain of Esdraelon), some have argued that this Kcdcsh is the one in Issachar, not Kcdcsh in Upper Galilee (see #1 above), and that it should be identified with Tell Abu Qudeis, a small mound between Taanach and Megiddo. Others argue that this site is too far W to have been included in the territory of Issachar. It has also been suggested that Kedesh in Issachar was Barak’s hometown (Jdg. 4:6) and/or the place where Heber the Kenite lived (4:11; see #2 above). - you need to read the entry to see the complexities.
Eric Cline discussing Barak's Kedesh [6] "Another sticky problem involves the location of Barak’s hometown of Kedesh in Naphtali, where Barak and Deborah assembled their men. Where was this place? Like Harosheth-ha-goiim (discussed earlier in this chapter), Kedesh has been located by scholars in a dizzying number of possible places. A favorite early identification located the site of Kedesh some seven miles northwest of Hazor in Upper Galilee, by Lake Huleh. This seems rather unlikely, because it is too far from the action in the Jezreel Valley, and because Deborah and Barak would probably not have assembled, or been able to assemble, their army so close to the Canaanite capital city of Hazor. Another favored suggestion has identified Kedesh with Tel Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis), a small mound located only a few miles north of Taanach in the Jezreel Valley itself. However, this location also seems unlikely, because it is too close to Harosheth-ha-goiim and Sisera’s forces, regardless of where Harosheth is to be located in the Jezreel Valley. Once again, Deborah and Barak would probably not have assembled, or been able to assemble, their army so close to Sisera’s camp. Of all the suggested possibilities for the location of Kedesh, the most likely is the site of Khirbet Qadis (Horvat Qedesh), located near the Sea of Galilee on the steep slopes of the mountains between the plain of Jezreel and the Jordan River. This site would have been on the southern border of Naphtali..." Doug Weller talk 11:40, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Doug is to be commended for bringing to our attention that the identification of the biblical site of Kadesh/Kedesh ascribed to Barak and Jael is, in fact, disputed. I'm not sure, however, if we are capable of rendering a verdict as to who here is correct, but we can and ought to mention here that, with respect to Barak's Kedesh, the place is disputed. Page 207 in Conder & Kitchener writes specifically about the site of Kedesh in Upper Galilee and brings down the following anecdote: " Isaac Chelo (1334 A.D.) places the tombs of Barak and Deborah here. Gerson of Scarmela (1561) adds Jael to the number." The matter remains a dispute and should be written as such. Davidbena ( talk) 13:52, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Putting everything into perspective: The problem with the identification of Tell Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis) in Lower Galilee (in the southern part of the Jezreel Valley) as Barak's burial place is that it is not located in the tribal territory of Naphtali, but rather in Issachar, while the Hebrew Bible tells us explicitly in Judges 4: vss. 6, 10-11, that Barak's place of residence was in Kedesh of Naphtali. Furthermore, the Hebrew Bible does not tell us where Barak was buried, although it is more logical to think that when a man dies his corpse would be carried to be buried in or near his native town or village.
What I think may have caused historical geographers to guess about his burial place being in Tell Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis) in Lower Galilee, a site located on the south edge of the Jezreel Valley, is that Barak was commanded, in Judges ch. 4, to fight Jabin's army, a Canaanite army that was under the command of Jabin's general, Sisera, and which army would be lured to Mount Tabor, near the Jezreel Valley, and where Jabin's army of 900 iron-clad chariots would be defeated. Reminiscent of this episode is Psalm 83:10, where we read: "Do Thou unto them as unto Midian; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook Kishon; [vs. 11] Who were destroyed at En-dor; they became as dung for the earth."
Even though there was, by a striking coincidence, that other village by the name of Kadesh/Tell Qedesh (Tell Abu Qudeis) in the southern part of the Jezreel Valley, let no man be deceived thereby. It is still not to be confused with the Kedesh in Naphtali (note the distinction!), Barak's place of nativity. Moreover, the Hebrew Bible makes it clear in Judges 4:11 that the Kedesh of Naphtali was near to a place called "Elon Beṣaʿananayim" (Heb. אלון בצעננים), meaning "The Plain of the Marshes", which translation is based on Rashi's interpretation of the words in Judges 4:11, and where he writes there מריש"ק, or what is the Old French word "maresc", now called in French marécage (marais) = marshland; swamp (see: Sefer Targum Ha-La'az, by Dayan I. Gukovitzki, London 1992, pp. 69, 130). The evidence is clear that we are referring here to the region in the far-north of Israel, where is the Hula Lake (Semechonitis) – a place of marshes (before it was drained), and where Hazor (the city of Jabin) was located only 10 kilometers away from Kedesh of Naphtali. Davidbena ( talk) 23:04, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
User:Doug Weller, shalom. Pursuant to your reminder that the identification of the site known as "Kedesh of Naphtali" is disputed by academics, we have therefore added a new section in the article outlining the matter of this dispute. See Kedesh#Kedesh of Naphtali in the current article. If you feel that it meets your requirements of having the dispute mentioned in the article, then it might be best now to remove the templates at the top of the page. Davidbena ( talk) 05:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)