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Archive 1 |
If you haven't noticed yet,-- MarshallBagramyan 06:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC) there's a bit of a gap (about 800 years!) in the History section... mu5ti ☪ 08:00, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
If there are no objections, I'd like to introduce a sketch of Kars circa 1917 that my grandfather drew when he was a child living there. -- MarshallBagramyan 00:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Cool.....
Ok I posted it so tell me what you guys think of it. Feel free to ask any questions about it. -- MarshallBagramyan 02:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Well my grandfather, Onik, was born on April 14, 1913. I extracted that image from his memoirs where he speaks about the Russian led Armenian forces moving towards Erzerum. He saw the famous Armenian partisan fighter Serob Pasha on a horse along with his guards where his forces were rallying and perhaps most interesting of all, his wife chose to over stay at their house. They left for Russia in 1918 as the Armenian forces began to draw out.
If you look at the picture, on the top, you see a row of houses -- my grandfather's house was the third one from the right -- seperated by a bright orange section. That section, written in Armenian writes, Malakneree Tagh, meaning the "location of where the Malakner lived". Apparently they were of Russian descent, perhaps even Kurdish. On the left in the middle, you can see a large wheel spoke on the river which was a water wheel or a mill or something. Just below are a set of houses which, according to my grandfather, belonged to the more wealthy affluent residents of Armenia. I'll read more into it and find out more about the town's demographics. -- MarshallBagramyan 06:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, she said that she wanted to remain at the house which had the most impoverished person in town. And that person happend to live with my grandfather's family and my grandfather was awed as how such a revered figure would choose to come and become a guest for them. His father was a trader, he would buy products from abroad and sell or exchange them there. He succumbed to pneumonia in Russia several years after they left Kars.
One incident in his memoirs that he describes is of a young Armenian man who decides to join Serob's forces. His mother begrudgingly insists that he stay at home as he sits on a horse. When his mother's wails do not cease, he gets angry and finally pushes her away. She falls dowan as an artillery cannon is being moved forward and its spoke wheel runs over the woman's foot and putting her in agonizing pain (thankfully not seriously injuring her).
I only began reading his memoirs just recently and when I saw that picture of that photo you mentioned, it was amazing as how acutely and accurately he drew the illustration is (he died 7 years ago, suffering the similar fate as his father; I wasn't interested about his life or Armenian history back then and its something I deeply regret not dwelling further upon before his passing).
On the right side of the illustration it writes in Armenian "Qarsee Berdt" which means Kars' Fortress and he has enumerated about ten or eleven locations on the picture (try saving it on your computer and zooming in to find them) in which he describes them. I'll try to find out what it writes exactly. -- MarshallBagramyan 06:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is 99% about Kars history, %1 modern day city of Turkey. And of course we all know why. Illustration by the way, apperantly it was drawn by a kid, I don't know what kind of value it has posted on this article.-- Kagan the Barbarian 12:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Um, it was drawn by a child -- my grandfather when he was only a few years old living in Russia and recanting from memory. That picture is an accurate illustration of what Kars looked like in 1917. I'm sorry if you're unable to distinguish the immense merit and significance it holds, the Turkish government does a fine job in erasing any traces of Armenian history doesn't it?-- MarshallBagramyan 22:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Then by all means, add as much information about it of present day Kars. No one is stopping you.-- MarshallBagramyan 21:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't have information on Kars of present. You can visit the Turkish Ministry of Tourism and take its sources since I'm only working on Armenian-related and military issues. -- MarshallBagramyan 23:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
What is so inappropriate about it? That picture is a relic from an era that has lost nearly every historical artifact since the Genocide. Your reasons for removing it are wholly insufficent as I cannot understand nor see why in the world you would delete a historical picture. The illustration gives readers a chance to visually see how Kars looked in 1917. Other articles on historical cities include drawings of how they looked like centuries before; I honestly cannot understand your motives for removing it. I will add that image back, your reasons fail to convince me. -- MarshallBagramyan 00:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
2- Its authenticity and accuracy are unknown. 3- Lastly and most importantly it was drawn by a kid, it holds no scientific value.
Oh my...I have shown this picture to other Turks and even they agree that it is authentic. What is so inaccurate about it? The fortress and the river all align to present day Kars and so do the diagrams of the churches.
1)The size can be adjusted to make it smaller, even then, the current size does not hamper the reader's efforts or the article's form. 2)Here's a map of present day Kars a Turkish friend of mine showed to me, as he was marveled as how accurate my grandfather's illustration was: [1]. Obviously the majority of the buildings have changed by now but geographical location and the position of landmark buildings, the Kars fortress, the houses on the side of the fortress, the river next to those houses, etc. are in the correct places when you compare it to the photographs we have on this article. 3)So just because it was drawn by my grandfather when he was a child, it loses its value and authenticity? I'm not certain when exactly in his youth he drew this but my grandfather was a pharmacist, not an artist. If there are any real discrepancies, point them out. Otherwise your claims are invalid.
Hardly any demagoguery involved in this on my part, I think you should reevaluate your claims and see where the logic falls. -- MarshallBagramyan 07:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, I really think this picture doesn't qualify for a professional and historical imagery (especially in an encyclopedia). I suggest it's deleted.
For example, I've lived in the Netherlands for some time. By Wikipedia standards, should Dutch people allow my own handdrawing of the city I lived in as a picture within the related article???
-- Gokhan 13:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I found that drawing to be the most interesting thing in the whole Wikipedia entry for Kars! (But then I am speaking a someone who knows more about Kars than any other person who is likely to read the Kars entry.) It certainly qualifies as an example of historical imagery of Kars. The only quastion is whether such specialised historical imagery should be part of a general article about Kars. -- Meowy 19:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
They are acceptable usually if the people of this language had a lot to do with the city’s history, population, or both. See the Gdansk article for example – it has the German name, but the city has hardly any Germans living it, and hasn’t been part of Germany since WWII. There are many articles about Greek islands with the Turkish name – see Kos for example. --19:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
For a settlement that is at least 2000 years old the Kars entry so far is a bit basic and with many ommissions! I will try to add more material over the coming few days, but meanwhile, I have added some links to several pages on VirtualAni.org that address some of those gaps.
PS: for some reason Khoikhoi has objected to me adding these links, saying that they are "commercial links"??? I have just joined here, and so may be a bit hazy on procedures, but I see nothing objectionable in those links.
Khoikhoi, why are you erasing links that have been on the page for months?
VirtualANI - A history and description of the city of Kars was there before I added anything.
And what is it you find so objectionable in these?
The medieval Armenian cathedral in Kars known as the Holy Apostles church An album of old postcards and photographs of Kars The architecture of the traditional houses of Kars Buildings in Kars that date from the Russian period of rule
Throughout history, Kars has been home to many civilisations and nations, from Scythians to Armenians, from Kipchaks to Romans. The region was included in Transcaucasia, and later on it was inhabited by Hayasa. The city of Ani nearby the region was the capitol of an Armenian kingdom in 10th century, until it was captured by Seljuk Turks in 1064. Georgians captured the city for a while, and then the Ilkhanids captured it. Finally after the short term invasion of Timur, the city was captured by the Ottoman Empire in 1534.
The city had a long term Turkish rule, until it was captured by the Russian Empire in 1877. After a period of a Southern Caucasian Republic, the city was recaptured by Turks under leadership of Kazim Karabekir Pasha. It is a modern province of Republic of Turkey.
So as it's understood by its population's composition in history, the region was occupied by Armenians until 11th century, and then by local Armenians and Turks together, until the Russian invasion when the Turkish population had to immigrate to west. Later on, the Armenians of the city were deported during WWI.
But some misinformed writers or nationalist spammers enjoy editing the true information about the city. The city have never been a Kurdish city throughout its history, if it was, I am ready to see your sources and the official records about any Kurdish existance in the city except the Islamic encyclopedia's non sense map. I am also ready to show any official documents the spammer needs to see to understand his wrong knowledge.
Thank you...
Grandmaster, is this refering to the Karapapak? (not to be confused with the Karakalpaks of Central Asia). I noticed "Karapapakhs" and "Karapapak" sounded similar. — Khoi khoi 01:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey Cleve, I was not trying to revise anything, if you noticed, my fact tags were also about stuff not concerning Armenia and Turkey proper: like Soviets wanting to attack Turkey after WWII etc. Don't get me wrong, it could be true, but to be honest it is the first time I heard that. That's all.. Baristarim 21:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Good to see these ethnic population figures. It illustrates how no one nationality may reasonably claim Kars as theirs. I missed two things in these figures: 1) where are the Jews, and 2) religions. From the ethnic percentages you may calculate 58% Islam and 41% Christian, but how about Alevites, Yezidis, atheists/communists, Jews (again) and unchurchliness? Could not read the Russian source, but had the impression it gave some more figures? [I am wrtiting a short history of Turkey in Dutch] Marco www.ecocam.com
Everyone definetly went overboard with the naming and Karapak tag contradicted the main article. Hetoum I 03:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The ones in the article are not credible. Kars has grown steadily in size since the 1980s - it must have trebled in area over 25 years. Yet we are given statistics that claim the population was 142,000 in 1990 and only 76,000 in 2009 (this in a country whose population growth is almost out of control)! And the 129,000 figure for 1922 is just laughable (is it perhaps actually for the entire Kars province?). Similarly laughable is the 20,000 for 1897 going down to only 12,000 for 1913 (at a time when Kars actually enjoyed a big period of growth). Meowy 15:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Why do we include the Armenian name of the city in the first sentence article? I understand why it is there, for there have been Armenian inhabitants in the city in history, but there aren't any more, and if we did the same thing to all articles, we would put the Turkish name in the articles of Alexandroupoli, Plovdiv, Batumi and so on, and many such examples, not necessarily in this region. -- Seksen iki yüz kırk beş ( talk) 15:29, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I think the information about the border crossing in the history section should be added to the article of Kars Province, since the border crossing is not in the city of Kars, but in the borders of Kars districts. -- Seksen iki yüz kırk beş ( talk) 15:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion. - GTBacchus( talk) 18:14, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Kars, Turkey →
Kars – per
WP:CRITERIA &
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC
This Kars is most well-known Kars.
Kars, a village in the Khizi Rayon of Azerbaijan, is normally spelled as Qars.
Kars, a small village in the city of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, is much less-known than Kars in Turkey.
-- Takabeg ( talk) 01:58, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Proposals for ending the naming disputes of Kars through an arbritation by neutral third opinions of administrators. As the ongoing disputes are not going to be solved by each side anytime soon, the best option is to refer this to neutral third opinions of administrators. Please add further ideas and recommendations.
Noraton ( talk) 21:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken; Estonian: Soome laht). Separate languages should be separated by semicolons. [2]
After little attempt to initiate a discussion or to re-visit the arguments made in the lengthy talks above, I have restored the consensus version of the foreign names in the lede. If the question is raised again, I hope that editors will discuss it here instead of making unilateral additions or removals. Regards, -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 18:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be a false attempt at equivalency here. Policy has been quoted above, and yet you nor anyone has addressed the language it contains. I have put the question to many editors, all of whom have given unsatisfactory or no replies at all, and now I ask you again: what is the relevance of the other foreign alphabets and how well do they specifically meet the criteria outlined by Wikipedia rules?-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 05:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
It shouldn't be added. Why don't we add at the first sentence at the New York City its name in dutch or even better Nuova York (new york in italian)? There is even an italian community and little italy, and also a china town. Is this becoming a way in Wikipedia to communicate that that city was armenian, russian or a turkish city? You don't need to do that. It's already in the history of the city... -- Tacci2023 ( talk) 14:58, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Let me say first that I take exception to the notion of requesting administrator input. According to what an administrator is not:
That out of the way, it is common practice to use important names of the city in other languages, for example Kaliningrad or Mosul and that Turkish cities seem not to follow this practice, using only the English and Turkish names Istanbul, Izmir, and Trabzon. I think that this has more to do with Turkish nationalism than common practice. Speaking as an admitted Turcophile, Turks tend to be a bit sensitive about using other names for Turkish cities, lest they imply a claim on them. Given European and Armenian efforts to partition the Ottoman Empire, it's understandable, but I personally disagree with the attitude.
I don't think the Russian name belongs here, because it was only Russian for a bit over a century and the Russian legacy isn't especially strong (see the New Amsterdam mention above) but I approve of the status quo. As I understand it there are large Azeri and Kurdish-speaking populations in the city, which predate the founding of the modern Turkish nation-state. If that's the case, we ought to include this in the article, and they probably do belong in the lead.
Likewise given the historically Armenian population, I think including the Armenian name might be acceptable, as with Kaliningrad and Gdańsk. However unlike those two examples, the Armenians were already a small minority by the start of the 20th century, so if there aren't many Armenians living there today, and as such their claim for inclusion in the article is probably the weakest. We don't, for example include the Aramaic name for Jerusalem, even though it was for a long time the majority language, because it hasn't been a major language in the city during the modern era. Unlike the Azeri and Kurdish names I'm not certain that the Armenian name is necessary, and its inclusion is more a matter of Armenian nationalism (which has played a major role at least in US consciousness). I have no objection to including the Armenian name, however I very much don't think it is more important than the Azeri or Kurdish names. -- Quintucket ( talk) 23:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
We have been following Wikipedia guidelines, but more important, the Armenian and Greek names have been added to many Turkish city articles because there once used to be vibrant Armenian and Greek communities until the early 20th century, when members of both groups were brutally wiped out or expelled from their historic homelands by a government(s) and which has since spared little energy in trying to deny that such a link with the people and the land even existed. Churches have been destroyed or converted, cities and towns have been renamed, and so on. The reader is entitled to know these facts and why Armenians are no longer living here or in Van or elsewhere. And while there isn't a uniform policy when it comes to this topic, we at least have a precdent to go on, to say nothing about Wikipedia's own guidelines.
The consensus, as is shown above, was reached after long deliberations and after the other side was unable to produce counter-arguments or proper explanations. I have consistently asked new editors who wished to change the status quo to present their views but most have neglected to do so or have made comments which do not relate directly to the topic. The reason Kurdish was removed, for example, was not because there are anglophone Armenians editing on Wikipedia, but because 1) the Kurdish pronounciation is no different from the Armenian and 2) the Kurdish presence in Kars has always been virtually non-existent. A town like Van can be correctly be called today a Kurdish city and that is why the Kurdish spelling is included on that article. But please refrain from using such specious reasoning ("X is an X, therefore he naturally must be opposed to including mention of Y") and be more specific in your arguments.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 02:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Well why else do people visit Wikipedia? Have you yourself not used this website to glean more information about something you've heard or seen on Wikipedia?
My knowledge of Kars is born from personal experience; I've visited there several times and I've read a book or two about it.
The discussion above cannot really be called consensus. The points brought forth by Verman (who was just recently permabanned) and Noratron were not new and were not really convincing anyone. In fact, their arguments mirrored those of a previous editor from the 2008 discussion, who was at pains to bring forth actual examples to support his edits. Consenus can change, but a little effort does, after all, have to be put in to it.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 05:41, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
This is not the Urmia article. Instead of reverting me, why don't you make an effort to justify your edits here on the talk page? -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 01:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Please elaborate and, if possible, please refer to my and others' objections above for the further inclusion of names.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 18:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
What is this?? Esc2003 ( talk) 20:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
We're not talking about other articles, we're talking about Kars; putting aside the Wikipedia policy of OTHER STUFF, bring forth specific examples. Like we've stated above, the presence of a single people, even currently, is not enough grounds for inclusion.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 21:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
The Armenian name in the Ganja, Azerbaijan actually is located below in the article in the section titled "Historic Armenian Community," which is fine. But again, I'm not opposed to adding a name if someone can just demonstrate a close affinity with an ethnic group and the city in question. The article on Silvan, Turkey is one good example on how multiple names can be seamlessly integrated into the lead section of an article. In the case of the Kurds, since they lived in the countryside, perhaps a case can be made to include them in the Kars Province article, but something more tangible has to be demonstrated than mere residence. The Armenians until recently formed a majority in Tbilisi (Tiflis) and were dominant in its political and economic spheres (to say nothing about all the mansions and cultural institutions they established) but no one is scrambling to that article to include its Armenian name, nor should they be. The same applies to Baku. Each article is treated differently and I think Kars should as well.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 17:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't get why a Kurdish language should be added if their is no information about Kurdish people in the article at all. It doesn't show a significance for it being up there. -- Nocturnal781 ( talk) 14:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
According to Ahmet Bican Ercilâsun, Kars ili ağızları: Ses Bilgisi, 1983,
Aynca Kars merkezinde ve merkeze bağlı bazı köylerde çok sayıda Azeri oturmaktadır (Furthermore, very large number of Azeris are living in the center of Kars (city), and some villages which belong to the central district (of Kars). Takabeg ( talk) 09:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
As to Kurdish population in Kars, you can read
Rohat Alkom, Çokkültürlülük ışığında Kars Kürtleri (Kurds in Kars in the light of multiculturalism), Avesta, 2009.
Takabeg ( talk) 09:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Kars < Chorzene Böri ( talk) 18:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Initially the decision not to include the Azeri name was the same as the reason not to include the Kurdish name: that the alphabets were not in official use in Turkey, though a quick look at later discussions shows that third-party users rightfully questioned the priority of the Armenian spelling over the others (by the same logic). Now that the Kurdish name has made it back into the article, it remains unclear why the Azeri one has not. I was quite surprised to see that the decision not to include it was based solely on the fact that User:MarshallBagramyan decided to go out on a limb and assert repeatedly that the Azeri population appeared in Kars after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and that no one bothered to inquire from him where this amazingly inaccurate conclusion stems from.
Canadian historian Alireza Asgharzadeh writes in his 2007 article "Azerbaijan and the Challenge of Multiple Identities": The history of the Azeri population in today’s Turkey can be traced back to the earlier periods of the Safavid era in Iran (1501-1722), when their rule extended over the current Turkish regions of Kars and neighboring areas..
A 1897 ethnic map of Europe labels Kars as Azeri-speaking:
For those who are interested I can provide more sources on the historical Azeri presence in Kars. I think these will do for now. Parishan ( talk) 01:48, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I have been "furnishing sources" for which that you have not been able to furnish counter-arguments, and even those "couple of years", as it turns out, have not led you to come up with anything even remotely plausible to contest them. I do not consider your comment on Asgharzadeh's work an argument (I find it bizarre coming from an experienced editor, in fact). Your reference to the use of the term 'Azeri' is just as bad; the use of alternative terminology does not undo the fact of the bearer's existence (otherwise we would have to remove all pre-1870 references to Germans and pre-1882 references to Italians). Asgharzadeh never made links between a "brief conquest" and historical presence, at least because historical ethnic presence in no way presupposes administrative governance. As an active editor of articles related to Armenians you should have probably realised that by now. Au contraire, Asgharzadeh's insistence on the fact that the Azeri population of Eastern Turkey can trace its roots back to the Middle Ages is exactly the opposite of what you are saying.
I am yet to hear a comment with regard to the map I have posted from any of the users who "have voiced their objections", including yourself, which reveals the POV nature of those objections. Unless you want to prove to me that the authors of a nineteenth-century map that mentions Azeris had had a premonition with regard to something that came into being "at the end of the first quarter of the twentieth century".
Finally, if Azeris appeared in Kars in 1991 and had not formed "a sizable community" there, how come Turkish-based journalist Alan Cowell of The New York Times mentioned in his January 26, 1990 article that "about 400,000 Azeri Turks live in a belt of land on the Turkish side of the Soviet border"? Oh, and while we are at it, I would like you to provide some sources on the post-1991 Azeri immigration in Kars, because personally this is the first time I hear this. To my knowledge, Kars has never been a popular destination for Azeris migrating to Turkey, but you look like you have some serious reasons to believe so. I am all ears. Parishan ( talk) 04:13, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Details of your personal trip to Kars cannot qualify as counter arguments at least because I find it quite strange that you managed to miss the 139 Azeri villages that Turkish linguist Sevan Nişanyan has identified and mapped in Eastern Anatolia in his 2007 work, and for some of them even provided dates of founding going to as early as 1813. Still not convinced?
I am not using the 1897 map as a sole reference (it simply goes to show that the existence of Azeris and their presence in Kars was known to Europeans way before the date you have been insisting on here, based on a very dubious personal conviction), it is one of at least three references I have provided, that you have difficulties commenting on. The journalist is unlikely wrong: as of 2010, the population of the border regions Kars, Igdir, Agri and Ardahan was well over one million people (the Kars Oblast included only 2/3 of the Kars il as it looked in 1990, and certainly did not include the other border regions mentioned by Cowell), and about half of them being of Azeri origin does not seem inaccurate. In any event, I suggest you refer back to Nişanyan (and I assure you that there is more where that came from; listing sources one by one makes it easier to elicit reaction from you, because you have a bad history of ignoring sources when they are presented to you en masse, just like you did now with Asgharzadeh).
I am ready to request mediation, but in order to see the need for that, I would like to at least hear some arguments, especially with regard to Asgharzadeh and Nişanyan (for now). So far I have not heard anything but POV that has dashed against the very few sources mentioned here. Comments such as "no Azeris until 1991", "no Azeri identity", "brief conquest", "teahouses", and zero academic references to back them up – given such an impressive background, do you really consider yourself to be in the position to say you are not satisfied with the sources? Parishan ( talk) 05:47, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Sevan Nişanyan does not need to be a historian; he studies speech communities and is perfectly qualified to assess their age in the given area. I have already provided you with historical data on the matter. Besides, Section 10 says nothing about the priority to be given to the historical component, and since even the Merriam-Webster Dictionary mentions 'Qars' as an alternative spelling for 'Kars', what more do you require as proof?
I have every reason to believe in POV-pushing on your part; the Kurdish name, for example, was added without anyone having to prove the fact of historical Kurdish presence in the area; it has been two days, and yet you have remained strangely silent. However, it took you less than an hour to appear and revert my addition of the Azeri name, only to proceed to making obscure excuses on the talk page just so not to add it back. In fact, speaking of consensus, most of the users uninvolved in the AA2 topics who had left comments here supported the inclusion of the Azeri name: among them Kheo77, Takabeg and at some point even Quintucket before you misled him into believing that there were no Azeris in Kars prior to 1991 and which he did not take time to double-check.
Meanwhile: an analysis of the dialect of Göle and its surroundings by Turkish folklorist Bekir Karadeniz, where he affirms that the Azeri form Qars is a typical realisation of the toponym Kars in the given region. Parishan ( talk) 06:48, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Marshal Bagramyan, you know very well that both Asgharzadeh and Nişanyan are peer-reviewed and frequently cited scholars. Your WP:IDONTHEARYOU approach is too obvious in this case.
The Azeri role in the history of Kars has been much more significant than that of Armenians in Moscow or Amsterdam: from the onset of Azeri migration there in the Middle Ages to the fact that Azerbaijan laid claims on Kars at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, and that Kars and Nakhchivan constituted a common political unit around the same time. I am sorry but your constant references to "what you said years ago" do not address the issues that I am raising here right now, and this becomes evident with you flipping your position with every response. First you insisted that there were no Azeris in the region before 1991, then you claimed you did not see any when you travelled there, and now you agree that the community is as sizeable as the Hispanic community of New York, but are clinging to a ridiculous claim that a community ought to make some undefined amount of contribution to be considered worthy of having its exonym included here. The Azeri identity in Turkey is closely associated and goes hand in hand with Kars regional identity, and even the official web-site of the Kars regional administration mentions that the local dialect is essentially a form of Azeri.
Quintucket said: "Unlike the Azeri and Kurdish names I'm not certain that the Armenian name is necessary (...) I have no objection to including the Armenian name, however I very much don't think it is more important than the Azeri or Kurdish names", and only after your misleading comment he agreed with you in saying "If the Azerbaijani population in fact dates to only 1991, then I agree, the Azeri name does not belong". Before accusing my position of "being disturbing", may I remind you that I specifically mentioned users not actively involved in AA2, which excludes yourself, Atabəy, Meowy, Nocturnal781. As for Etienne D, his most valuable contribution to this discussion and to the whole article have been two isolated reverts, so I do not consider his opinion particularly pertinent, but his sudden appearance with a revert rather suspicious and potentially of interest to AE.
Voilà, two more sources on my part and none on yours. You do not seem to be building up strong argumentation in case we indeed agree to apply for mediation. Parishan ( talk) 19:12, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
You brought it up - I'm merely highlighting the inappropriateness of the example you cited as it pertains to the conversation. As regards the rules delineated in the naming convention, certainly the names given by certain people who once or currently might be inhabiting a town or region can be added in the lead; many articles of the towns and villages in Turkey contain their original Armenian or Greek names up in the lead. But that leads back to my original question and that was are we going add the alphabet of every ethnic people who at one time took up residence in this city? Someone just added the Russian alphabet and I'm not sure if I think it's necessary. Should we add Russian and Mandarin to the San Francisco article? Spanish for Brooklyn? Armenian for Fresno? Armenian for Alfortville? Armenian for Bucharest and Lvov (the history of those communities in particularl go back nearly 800 years) Turkish for Berlin? I mean, where do we draw the line?
Nationalism, as we understand it in its modern meaning, came relatively late to the Muslims of the Caucasus and I think it is inappropriate to retroactively re-brand every Muslim (or Turco-Tatar) who lived at that time as an Azeri and say they spoke the Azerbaijani dialect of the Turkic language. Perhaps some of them did but perhaps some of them may resent that and dispute that that modern label in the same sense Kurds resented being called by the Turkish government Mountain Turks after the Republic of Turkey was established. In any case, some of the above examples have a much stronger case for adding those names, but to do so I think would strike some as a bad joke of irredentism or nationalist chest-beating. In order to add a name, something more tangible would have to be proffered to demonstrate that ethno-cultural link. I regret to say that you have done a visibly poor job in proving that link, the above links and sources notwithstanding.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
To end this argument, we could just place all names under the "Etymology" section. There is a large Azeri population indeed (like my grandma) but my grandpa is Georgian so i can widen this argument to every single minority (like Tats, Karapapaks, Terekemes, Chveneburis etc.) in Kars should be represented by their provision of "Kars" in their language which is unneeded at the moment. KazekageTR ( talk) 17:39, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
In light of the discussion above, should the Azeri name for Kars be included in the lead? Parishan ( talk) 02:17, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken). Separate languages should be separated by semicolons.
Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; we recommend that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves. KazekageTR ( talk) 13:07, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
My two cents. Russian census at the turn of the 20th century provided the most reliable historical population statistics. According to Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary, the ethnic composition of the population of Kars region was as follows:
Русские составляют 7% населения, греки 13½%, курды 15%, армяне 21½%, турки 24%, карапапахи (адербейд. тат.) 14%, туркмены 5%. Православных 14%, сектантов 5%, армяно-грегориан 21%, остальных христианских исповеданий ¾%, магометан 53% (суннитов 46% и шиитов 7%), последователей секты али-аллахи — 5%, езидов — 1¼%.
Russians 7%, Greeks 13½%, Kurds 15%, Armenians 21½%, Turks 24%, Karapapakhs (Azerbaijani Tatars (i.e. Azerbaijanis) 14%, Turkmens 5%. Orthodox 14%, sectarians 5%, Armeno-Gregorian 21%, other Christians ¾%, Muslims 53% (Sunni 46% and Shia 7%), Ali-Allahi sectarians — 5%, Yezidi — 1¼%. [10]
Karapapaks are a sub-ethnic group of Azerbaijanis. So if we include the name in Armenian, which was spoken by 21% of population, and Kurdish, which was spoken by 15% of the population, then why Azerbaijanis, who were 14% are excluded? They also had a historical presence in Kars, and live there now, even though no reliable statistics of the present Azerbaijani population are available. The inclusion of Azerbaijani is justified by the criterion of being a language "used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". Grand master 20:22, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
The large majority of Azeris living in the Kars province were transferred there following the 1918-1925 population exchanges with former Soviet Armenia.
In 1878 three-fourth of the inhabitants of the Kars oblast were Moslem, but in the following two years approximately seventy-five thousand of them sought refuge within the Ottoman Empire. Their abandoned lands were repopulated by Russian religious dissenters and Turkish Armenians who continued to filter across the border. An Armenian plurality was gradually established in the two southern okrugs ("counties") of the oblast.
Карс, областной город Карсской области: Население, плотность которого немногим превышает 15 ч. на 1 кв. в., состоит из русских (12½%), греков (14%), курдов (6½%), осетин (½%), армян (29%), айсоров (½%), турок (9½%), карапапахов (22½%), туркмен (3½%) и других народностей (1½%).
Kars, provincial centre of the Kars Oblast: The population of which the density is barely higher than 15 people per 1 sq. km. consists of Russians (12.5%), Greeks (14%), Kurds (6.5%), Ossetians (0.5%), Armenians (29%), Assyrians (0.5%), Turks (9.5%), Karapapaks (22.5%), Turkmen (3.5%) and others (1.5%).
It seems to me that there are two options. According to the data above, Armenians and Azerbaijanis were roughly equal in number at the time of the census. Logically, if we are to put the name used by one ethnic group in the article, we must also include the other, since their numbers and significance as a portion of the population were roughly equal. Rwenonah ( talk) 19:41, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
What is this "Old Turkish"? Does such a term actually exist? This rather dubuious phrase has been added, I think, as a result of some offhand comments made earlier in this thread. I would like to see an exact quote of the text being cited, and after that some sort of proof that the phrase exists as a proper linguistic term. Otherwise, the suspicion is that all the source is claiming is that the "gh" pronounciation arose during the time Kars was part of the Ottoman Empire or when it was one of the petty Turkish-ruled states that preceeded the Ottoman capture. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Tea with toast ( talk · contribs) 00:09, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
It will probably take me a few days to complete this review, but I intend to finish in a week's time. Just a few items that need to be taken care of in the meantime:
Happy editing! -- Tea with toast (話) 00:09, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Tea with toast, mate i am busy with tose college stuff at the moment so can we put this on hold for some time? kazekagetr 08:25, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Armenian spelling is in the etymology section. Despite this, the editors are trying to bring it to the forefront. Armenian is not a language used in Turkey. There is no Armenian population living in kars. I did not remove the armenian spelling. Armenian spelling is be situated in etymology section. To do this is to use wikipedia for propaganda purposes.-- ArslanYabgu ( talk) 10:38, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
If you haven't noticed yet,-- MarshallBagramyan 06:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC) there's a bit of a gap (about 800 years!) in the History section... mu5ti ☪ 08:00, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
If there are no objections, I'd like to introduce a sketch of Kars circa 1917 that my grandfather drew when he was a child living there. -- MarshallBagramyan 00:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Cool.....
Ok I posted it so tell me what you guys think of it. Feel free to ask any questions about it. -- MarshallBagramyan 02:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Well my grandfather, Onik, was born on April 14, 1913. I extracted that image from his memoirs where he speaks about the Russian led Armenian forces moving towards Erzerum. He saw the famous Armenian partisan fighter Serob Pasha on a horse along with his guards where his forces were rallying and perhaps most interesting of all, his wife chose to over stay at their house. They left for Russia in 1918 as the Armenian forces began to draw out.
If you look at the picture, on the top, you see a row of houses -- my grandfather's house was the third one from the right -- seperated by a bright orange section. That section, written in Armenian writes, Malakneree Tagh, meaning the "location of where the Malakner lived". Apparently they were of Russian descent, perhaps even Kurdish. On the left in the middle, you can see a large wheel spoke on the river which was a water wheel or a mill or something. Just below are a set of houses which, according to my grandfather, belonged to the more wealthy affluent residents of Armenia. I'll read more into it and find out more about the town's demographics. -- MarshallBagramyan 06:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, she said that she wanted to remain at the house which had the most impoverished person in town. And that person happend to live with my grandfather's family and my grandfather was awed as how such a revered figure would choose to come and become a guest for them. His father was a trader, he would buy products from abroad and sell or exchange them there. He succumbed to pneumonia in Russia several years after they left Kars.
One incident in his memoirs that he describes is of a young Armenian man who decides to join Serob's forces. His mother begrudgingly insists that he stay at home as he sits on a horse. When his mother's wails do not cease, he gets angry and finally pushes her away. She falls dowan as an artillery cannon is being moved forward and its spoke wheel runs over the woman's foot and putting her in agonizing pain (thankfully not seriously injuring her).
I only began reading his memoirs just recently and when I saw that picture of that photo you mentioned, it was amazing as how acutely and accurately he drew the illustration is (he died 7 years ago, suffering the similar fate as his father; I wasn't interested about his life or Armenian history back then and its something I deeply regret not dwelling further upon before his passing).
On the right side of the illustration it writes in Armenian "Qarsee Berdt" which means Kars' Fortress and he has enumerated about ten or eleven locations on the picture (try saving it on your computer and zooming in to find them) in which he describes them. I'll try to find out what it writes exactly. -- MarshallBagramyan 06:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is 99% about Kars history, %1 modern day city of Turkey. And of course we all know why. Illustration by the way, apperantly it was drawn by a kid, I don't know what kind of value it has posted on this article.-- Kagan the Barbarian 12:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Um, it was drawn by a child -- my grandfather when he was only a few years old living in Russia and recanting from memory. That picture is an accurate illustration of what Kars looked like in 1917. I'm sorry if you're unable to distinguish the immense merit and significance it holds, the Turkish government does a fine job in erasing any traces of Armenian history doesn't it?-- MarshallBagramyan 22:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Then by all means, add as much information about it of present day Kars. No one is stopping you.-- MarshallBagramyan 21:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't have information on Kars of present. You can visit the Turkish Ministry of Tourism and take its sources since I'm only working on Armenian-related and military issues. -- MarshallBagramyan 23:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
What is so inappropriate about it? That picture is a relic from an era that has lost nearly every historical artifact since the Genocide. Your reasons for removing it are wholly insufficent as I cannot understand nor see why in the world you would delete a historical picture. The illustration gives readers a chance to visually see how Kars looked in 1917. Other articles on historical cities include drawings of how they looked like centuries before; I honestly cannot understand your motives for removing it. I will add that image back, your reasons fail to convince me. -- MarshallBagramyan 00:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
2- Its authenticity and accuracy are unknown. 3- Lastly and most importantly it was drawn by a kid, it holds no scientific value.
Oh my...I have shown this picture to other Turks and even they agree that it is authentic. What is so inaccurate about it? The fortress and the river all align to present day Kars and so do the diagrams of the churches.
1)The size can be adjusted to make it smaller, even then, the current size does not hamper the reader's efforts or the article's form. 2)Here's a map of present day Kars a Turkish friend of mine showed to me, as he was marveled as how accurate my grandfather's illustration was: [1]. Obviously the majority of the buildings have changed by now but geographical location and the position of landmark buildings, the Kars fortress, the houses on the side of the fortress, the river next to those houses, etc. are in the correct places when you compare it to the photographs we have on this article. 3)So just because it was drawn by my grandfather when he was a child, it loses its value and authenticity? I'm not certain when exactly in his youth he drew this but my grandfather was a pharmacist, not an artist. If there are any real discrepancies, point them out. Otherwise your claims are invalid.
Hardly any demagoguery involved in this on my part, I think you should reevaluate your claims and see where the logic falls. -- MarshallBagramyan 07:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, I really think this picture doesn't qualify for a professional and historical imagery (especially in an encyclopedia). I suggest it's deleted.
For example, I've lived in the Netherlands for some time. By Wikipedia standards, should Dutch people allow my own handdrawing of the city I lived in as a picture within the related article???
-- Gokhan 13:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I found that drawing to be the most interesting thing in the whole Wikipedia entry for Kars! (But then I am speaking a someone who knows more about Kars than any other person who is likely to read the Kars entry.) It certainly qualifies as an example of historical imagery of Kars. The only quastion is whether such specialised historical imagery should be part of a general article about Kars. -- Meowy 19:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
They are acceptable usually if the people of this language had a lot to do with the city’s history, population, or both. See the Gdansk article for example – it has the German name, but the city has hardly any Germans living it, and hasn’t been part of Germany since WWII. There are many articles about Greek islands with the Turkish name – see Kos for example. --19:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
For a settlement that is at least 2000 years old the Kars entry so far is a bit basic and with many ommissions! I will try to add more material over the coming few days, but meanwhile, I have added some links to several pages on VirtualAni.org that address some of those gaps.
PS: for some reason Khoikhoi has objected to me adding these links, saying that they are "commercial links"??? I have just joined here, and so may be a bit hazy on procedures, but I see nothing objectionable in those links.
Khoikhoi, why are you erasing links that have been on the page for months?
VirtualANI - A history and description of the city of Kars was there before I added anything.
And what is it you find so objectionable in these?
The medieval Armenian cathedral in Kars known as the Holy Apostles church An album of old postcards and photographs of Kars The architecture of the traditional houses of Kars Buildings in Kars that date from the Russian period of rule
Throughout history, Kars has been home to many civilisations and nations, from Scythians to Armenians, from Kipchaks to Romans. The region was included in Transcaucasia, and later on it was inhabited by Hayasa. The city of Ani nearby the region was the capitol of an Armenian kingdom in 10th century, until it was captured by Seljuk Turks in 1064. Georgians captured the city for a while, and then the Ilkhanids captured it. Finally after the short term invasion of Timur, the city was captured by the Ottoman Empire in 1534.
The city had a long term Turkish rule, until it was captured by the Russian Empire in 1877. After a period of a Southern Caucasian Republic, the city was recaptured by Turks under leadership of Kazim Karabekir Pasha. It is a modern province of Republic of Turkey.
So as it's understood by its population's composition in history, the region was occupied by Armenians until 11th century, and then by local Armenians and Turks together, until the Russian invasion when the Turkish population had to immigrate to west. Later on, the Armenians of the city were deported during WWI.
But some misinformed writers or nationalist spammers enjoy editing the true information about the city. The city have never been a Kurdish city throughout its history, if it was, I am ready to see your sources and the official records about any Kurdish existance in the city except the Islamic encyclopedia's non sense map. I am also ready to show any official documents the spammer needs to see to understand his wrong knowledge.
Thank you...
Grandmaster, is this refering to the Karapapak? (not to be confused with the Karakalpaks of Central Asia). I noticed "Karapapakhs" and "Karapapak" sounded similar. — Khoi khoi 01:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey Cleve, I was not trying to revise anything, if you noticed, my fact tags were also about stuff not concerning Armenia and Turkey proper: like Soviets wanting to attack Turkey after WWII etc. Don't get me wrong, it could be true, but to be honest it is the first time I heard that. That's all.. Baristarim 21:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Good to see these ethnic population figures. It illustrates how no one nationality may reasonably claim Kars as theirs. I missed two things in these figures: 1) where are the Jews, and 2) religions. From the ethnic percentages you may calculate 58% Islam and 41% Christian, but how about Alevites, Yezidis, atheists/communists, Jews (again) and unchurchliness? Could not read the Russian source, but had the impression it gave some more figures? [I am wrtiting a short history of Turkey in Dutch] Marco www.ecocam.com
Everyone definetly went overboard with the naming and Karapak tag contradicted the main article. Hetoum I 03:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The ones in the article are not credible. Kars has grown steadily in size since the 1980s - it must have trebled in area over 25 years. Yet we are given statistics that claim the population was 142,000 in 1990 and only 76,000 in 2009 (this in a country whose population growth is almost out of control)! And the 129,000 figure for 1922 is just laughable (is it perhaps actually for the entire Kars province?). Similarly laughable is the 20,000 for 1897 going down to only 12,000 for 1913 (at a time when Kars actually enjoyed a big period of growth). Meowy 15:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Why do we include the Armenian name of the city in the first sentence article? I understand why it is there, for there have been Armenian inhabitants in the city in history, but there aren't any more, and if we did the same thing to all articles, we would put the Turkish name in the articles of Alexandroupoli, Plovdiv, Batumi and so on, and many such examples, not necessarily in this region. -- Seksen iki yüz kırk beş ( talk) 15:29, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I think the information about the border crossing in the history section should be added to the article of Kars Province, since the border crossing is not in the city of Kars, but in the borders of Kars districts. -- Seksen iki yüz kırk beş ( talk) 15:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion. - GTBacchus( talk) 18:14, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Kars, Turkey →
Kars – per
WP:CRITERIA &
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC
This Kars is most well-known Kars.
Kars, a village in the Khizi Rayon of Azerbaijan, is normally spelled as Qars.
Kars, a small village in the city of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, is much less-known than Kars in Turkey.
-- Takabeg ( talk) 01:58, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Proposals for ending the naming disputes of Kars through an arbritation by neutral third opinions of administrators. As the ongoing disputes are not going to be solved by each side anytime soon, the best option is to refer this to neutral third opinions of administrators. Please add further ideas and recommendations.
Noraton ( talk) 21:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken; Estonian: Soome laht). Separate languages should be separated by semicolons. [2]
After little attempt to initiate a discussion or to re-visit the arguments made in the lengthy talks above, I have restored the consensus version of the foreign names in the lede. If the question is raised again, I hope that editors will discuss it here instead of making unilateral additions or removals. Regards, -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 18:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be a false attempt at equivalency here. Policy has been quoted above, and yet you nor anyone has addressed the language it contains. I have put the question to many editors, all of whom have given unsatisfactory or no replies at all, and now I ask you again: what is the relevance of the other foreign alphabets and how well do they specifically meet the criteria outlined by Wikipedia rules?-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 05:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
It shouldn't be added. Why don't we add at the first sentence at the New York City its name in dutch or even better Nuova York (new york in italian)? There is even an italian community and little italy, and also a china town. Is this becoming a way in Wikipedia to communicate that that city was armenian, russian or a turkish city? You don't need to do that. It's already in the history of the city... -- Tacci2023 ( talk) 14:58, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Let me say first that I take exception to the notion of requesting administrator input. According to what an administrator is not:
That out of the way, it is common practice to use important names of the city in other languages, for example Kaliningrad or Mosul and that Turkish cities seem not to follow this practice, using only the English and Turkish names Istanbul, Izmir, and Trabzon. I think that this has more to do with Turkish nationalism than common practice. Speaking as an admitted Turcophile, Turks tend to be a bit sensitive about using other names for Turkish cities, lest they imply a claim on them. Given European and Armenian efforts to partition the Ottoman Empire, it's understandable, but I personally disagree with the attitude.
I don't think the Russian name belongs here, because it was only Russian for a bit over a century and the Russian legacy isn't especially strong (see the New Amsterdam mention above) but I approve of the status quo. As I understand it there are large Azeri and Kurdish-speaking populations in the city, which predate the founding of the modern Turkish nation-state. If that's the case, we ought to include this in the article, and they probably do belong in the lead.
Likewise given the historically Armenian population, I think including the Armenian name might be acceptable, as with Kaliningrad and Gdańsk. However unlike those two examples, the Armenians were already a small minority by the start of the 20th century, so if there aren't many Armenians living there today, and as such their claim for inclusion in the article is probably the weakest. We don't, for example include the Aramaic name for Jerusalem, even though it was for a long time the majority language, because it hasn't been a major language in the city during the modern era. Unlike the Azeri and Kurdish names I'm not certain that the Armenian name is necessary, and its inclusion is more a matter of Armenian nationalism (which has played a major role at least in US consciousness). I have no objection to including the Armenian name, however I very much don't think it is more important than the Azeri or Kurdish names. -- Quintucket ( talk) 23:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
We have been following Wikipedia guidelines, but more important, the Armenian and Greek names have been added to many Turkish city articles because there once used to be vibrant Armenian and Greek communities until the early 20th century, when members of both groups were brutally wiped out or expelled from their historic homelands by a government(s) and which has since spared little energy in trying to deny that such a link with the people and the land even existed. Churches have been destroyed or converted, cities and towns have been renamed, and so on. The reader is entitled to know these facts and why Armenians are no longer living here or in Van or elsewhere. And while there isn't a uniform policy when it comes to this topic, we at least have a precdent to go on, to say nothing about Wikipedia's own guidelines.
The consensus, as is shown above, was reached after long deliberations and after the other side was unable to produce counter-arguments or proper explanations. I have consistently asked new editors who wished to change the status quo to present their views but most have neglected to do so or have made comments which do not relate directly to the topic. The reason Kurdish was removed, for example, was not because there are anglophone Armenians editing on Wikipedia, but because 1) the Kurdish pronounciation is no different from the Armenian and 2) the Kurdish presence in Kars has always been virtually non-existent. A town like Van can be correctly be called today a Kurdish city and that is why the Kurdish spelling is included on that article. But please refrain from using such specious reasoning ("X is an X, therefore he naturally must be opposed to including mention of Y") and be more specific in your arguments.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 02:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Well why else do people visit Wikipedia? Have you yourself not used this website to glean more information about something you've heard or seen on Wikipedia?
My knowledge of Kars is born from personal experience; I've visited there several times and I've read a book or two about it.
The discussion above cannot really be called consensus. The points brought forth by Verman (who was just recently permabanned) and Noratron were not new and were not really convincing anyone. In fact, their arguments mirrored those of a previous editor from the 2008 discussion, who was at pains to bring forth actual examples to support his edits. Consenus can change, but a little effort does, after all, have to be put in to it.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 05:41, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
This is not the Urmia article. Instead of reverting me, why don't you make an effort to justify your edits here on the talk page? -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 01:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Please elaborate and, if possible, please refer to my and others' objections above for the further inclusion of names.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 18:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
What is this?? Esc2003 ( talk) 20:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
We're not talking about other articles, we're talking about Kars; putting aside the Wikipedia policy of OTHER STUFF, bring forth specific examples. Like we've stated above, the presence of a single people, even currently, is not enough grounds for inclusion.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 21:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
The Armenian name in the Ganja, Azerbaijan actually is located below in the article in the section titled "Historic Armenian Community," which is fine. But again, I'm not opposed to adding a name if someone can just demonstrate a close affinity with an ethnic group and the city in question. The article on Silvan, Turkey is one good example on how multiple names can be seamlessly integrated into the lead section of an article. In the case of the Kurds, since they lived in the countryside, perhaps a case can be made to include them in the Kars Province article, but something more tangible has to be demonstrated than mere residence. The Armenians until recently formed a majority in Tbilisi (Tiflis) and were dominant in its political and economic spheres (to say nothing about all the mansions and cultural institutions they established) but no one is scrambling to that article to include its Armenian name, nor should they be. The same applies to Baku. Each article is treated differently and I think Kars should as well.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 17:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't get why a Kurdish language should be added if their is no information about Kurdish people in the article at all. It doesn't show a significance for it being up there. -- Nocturnal781 ( talk) 14:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
According to Ahmet Bican Ercilâsun, Kars ili ağızları: Ses Bilgisi, 1983,
Aynca Kars merkezinde ve merkeze bağlı bazı köylerde çok sayıda Azeri oturmaktadır (Furthermore, very large number of Azeris are living in the center of Kars (city), and some villages which belong to the central district (of Kars). Takabeg ( talk) 09:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
As to Kurdish population in Kars, you can read
Rohat Alkom, Çokkültürlülük ışığında Kars Kürtleri (Kurds in Kars in the light of multiculturalism), Avesta, 2009.
Takabeg ( talk) 09:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Kars < Chorzene Böri ( talk) 18:54, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Initially the decision not to include the Azeri name was the same as the reason not to include the Kurdish name: that the alphabets were not in official use in Turkey, though a quick look at later discussions shows that third-party users rightfully questioned the priority of the Armenian spelling over the others (by the same logic). Now that the Kurdish name has made it back into the article, it remains unclear why the Azeri one has not. I was quite surprised to see that the decision not to include it was based solely on the fact that User:MarshallBagramyan decided to go out on a limb and assert repeatedly that the Azeri population appeared in Kars after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and that no one bothered to inquire from him where this amazingly inaccurate conclusion stems from.
Canadian historian Alireza Asgharzadeh writes in his 2007 article "Azerbaijan and the Challenge of Multiple Identities": The history of the Azeri population in today’s Turkey can be traced back to the earlier periods of the Safavid era in Iran (1501-1722), when their rule extended over the current Turkish regions of Kars and neighboring areas..
A 1897 ethnic map of Europe labels Kars as Azeri-speaking:
For those who are interested I can provide more sources on the historical Azeri presence in Kars. I think these will do for now. Parishan ( talk) 01:48, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I have been "furnishing sources" for which that you have not been able to furnish counter-arguments, and even those "couple of years", as it turns out, have not led you to come up with anything even remotely plausible to contest them. I do not consider your comment on Asgharzadeh's work an argument (I find it bizarre coming from an experienced editor, in fact). Your reference to the use of the term 'Azeri' is just as bad; the use of alternative terminology does not undo the fact of the bearer's existence (otherwise we would have to remove all pre-1870 references to Germans and pre-1882 references to Italians). Asgharzadeh never made links between a "brief conquest" and historical presence, at least because historical ethnic presence in no way presupposes administrative governance. As an active editor of articles related to Armenians you should have probably realised that by now. Au contraire, Asgharzadeh's insistence on the fact that the Azeri population of Eastern Turkey can trace its roots back to the Middle Ages is exactly the opposite of what you are saying.
I am yet to hear a comment with regard to the map I have posted from any of the users who "have voiced their objections", including yourself, which reveals the POV nature of those objections. Unless you want to prove to me that the authors of a nineteenth-century map that mentions Azeris had had a premonition with regard to something that came into being "at the end of the first quarter of the twentieth century".
Finally, if Azeris appeared in Kars in 1991 and had not formed "a sizable community" there, how come Turkish-based journalist Alan Cowell of The New York Times mentioned in his January 26, 1990 article that "about 400,000 Azeri Turks live in a belt of land on the Turkish side of the Soviet border"? Oh, and while we are at it, I would like you to provide some sources on the post-1991 Azeri immigration in Kars, because personally this is the first time I hear this. To my knowledge, Kars has never been a popular destination for Azeris migrating to Turkey, but you look like you have some serious reasons to believe so. I am all ears. Parishan ( talk) 04:13, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Details of your personal trip to Kars cannot qualify as counter arguments at least because I find it quite strange that you managed to miss the 139 Azeri villages that Turkish linguist Sevan Nişanyan has identified and mapped in Eastern Anatolia in his 2007 work, and for some of them even provided dates of founding going to as early as 1813. Still not convinced?
I am not using the 1897 map as a sole reference (it simply goes to show that the existence of Azeris and their presence in Kars was known to Europeans way before the date you have been insisting on here, based on a very dubious personal conviction), it is one of at least three references I have provided, that you have difficulties commenting on. The journalist is unlikely wrong: as of 2010, the population of the border regions Kars, Igdir, Agri and Ardahan was well over one million people (the Kars Oblast included only 2/3 of the Kars il as it looked in 1990, and certainly did not include the other border regions mentioned by Cowell), and about half of them being of Azeri origin does not seem inaccurate. In any event, I suggest you refer back to Nişanyan (and I assure you that there is more where that came from; listing sources one by one makes it easier to elicit reaction from you, because you have a bad history of ignoring sources when they are presented to you en masse, just like you did now with Asgharzadeh).
I am ready to request mediation, but in order to see the need for that, I would like to at least hear some arguments, especially with regard to Asgharzadeh and Nişanyan (for now). So far I have not heard anything but POV that has dashed against the very few sources mentioned here. Comments such as "no Azeris until 1991", "no Azeri identity", "brief conquest", "teahouses", and zero academic references to back them up – given such an impressive background, do you really consider yourself to be in the position to say you are not satisfied with the sources? Parishan ( talk) 05:47, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Sevan Nişanyan does not need to be a historian; he studies speech communities and is perfectly qualified to assess their age in the given area. I have already provided you with historical data on the matter. Besides, Section 10 says nothing about the priority to be given to the historical component, and since even the Merriam-Webster Dictionary mentions 'Qars' as an alternative spelling for 'Kars', what more do you require as proof?
I have every reason to believe in POV-pushing on your part; the Kurdish name, for example, was added without anyone having to prove the fact of historical Kurdish presence in the area; it has been two days, and yet you have remained strangely silent. However, it took you less than an hour to appear and revert my addition of the Azeri name, only to proceed to making obscure excuses on the talk page just so not to add it back. In fact, speaking of consensus, most of the users uninvolved in the AA2 topics who had left comments here supported the inclusion of the Azeri name: among them Kheo77, Takabeg and at some point even Quintucket before you misled him into believing that there were no Azeris in Kars prior to 1991 and which he did not take time to double-check.
Meanwhile: an analysis of the dialect of Göle and its surroundings by Turkish folklorist Bekir Karadeniz, where he affirms that the Azeri form Qars is a typical realisation of the toponym Kars in the given region. Parishan ( talk) 06:48, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Marshal Bagramyan, you know very well that both Asgharzadeh and Nişanyan are peer-reviewed and frequently cited scholars. Your WP:IDONTHEARYOU approach is too obvious in this case.
The Azeri role in the history of Kars has been much more significant than that of Armenians in Moscow or Amsterdam: from the onset of Azeri migration there in the Middle Ages to the fact that Azerbaijan laid claims on Kars at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, and that Kars and Nakhchivan constituted a common political unit around the same time. I am sorry but your constant references to "what you said years ago" do not address the issues that I am raising here right now, and this becomes evident with you flipping your position with every response. First you insisted that there were no Azeris in the region before 1991, then you claimed you did not see any when you travelled there, and now you agree that the community is as sizeable as the Hispanic community of New York, but are clinging to a ridiculous claim that a community ought to make some undefined amount of contribution to be considered worthy of having its exonym included here. The Azeri identity in Turkey is closely associated and goes hand in hand with Kars regional identity, and even the official web-site of the Kars regional administration mentions that the local dialect is essentially a form of Azeri.
Quintucket said: "Unlike the Azeri and Kurdish names I'm not certain that the Armenian name is necessary (...) I have no objection to including the Armenian name, however I very much don't think it is more important than the Azeri or Kurdish names", and only after your misleading comment he agreed with you in saying "If the Azerbaijani population in fact dates to only 1991, then I agree, the Azeri name does not belong". Before accusing my position of "being disturbing", may I remind you that I specifically mentioned users not actively involved in AA2, which excludes yourself, Atabəy, Meowy, Nocturnal781. As for Etienne D, his most valuable contribution to this discussion and to the whole article have been two isolated reverts, so I do not consider his opinion particularly pertinent, but his sudden appearance with a revert rather suspicious and potentially of interest to AE.
Voilà, two more sources on my part and none on yours. You do not seem to be building up strong argumentation in case we indeed agree to apply for mediation. Parishan ( talk) 19:12, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
You brought it up - I'm merely highlighting the inappropriateness of the example you cited as it pertains to the conversation. As regards the rules delineated in the naming convention, certainly the names given by certain people who once or currently might be inhabiting a town or region can be added in the lead; many articles of the towns and villages in Turkey contain their original Armenian or Greek names up in the lead. But that leads back to my original question and that was are we going add the alphabet of every ethnic people who at one time took up residence in this city? Someone just added the Russian alphabet and I'm not sure if I think it's necessary. Should we add Russian and Mandarin to the San Francisco article? Spanish for Brooklyn? Armenian for Fresno? Armenian for Alfortville? Armenian for Bucharest and Lvov (the history of those communities in particularl go back nearly 800 years) Turkish for Berlin? I mean, where do we draw the line?
Nationalism, as we understand it in its modern meaning, came relatively late to the Muslims of the Caucasus and I think it is inappropriate to retroactively re-brand every Muslim (or Turco-Tatar) who lived at that time as an Azeri and say they spoke the Azerbaijani dialect of the Turkic language. Perhaps some of them did but perhaps some of them may resent that and dispute that that modern label in the same sense Kurds resented being called by the Turkish government Mountain Turks after the Republic of Turkey was established. In any case, some of the above examples have a much stronger case for adding those names, but to do so I think would strike some as a bad joke of irredentism or nationalist chest-beating. In order to add a name, something more tangible would have to be proffered to demonstrate that ethno-cultural link. I regret to say that you have done a visibly poor job in proving that link, the above links and sources notwithstanding.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
To end this argument, we could just place all names under the "Etymology" section. There is a large Azeri population indeed (like my grandma) but my grandpa is Georgian so i can widen this argument to every single minority (like Tats, Karapapaks, Terekemes, Chveneburis etc.) in Kars should be represented by their provision of "Kars" in their language which is unneeded at the moment. KazekageTR ( talk) 17:39, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
In light of the discussion above, should the Azeri name for Kars be included in the lead? Parishan ( talk) 02:17, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken). Separate languages should be separated by semicolons.
Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; we recommend that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves. KazekageTR ( talk) 13:07, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
My two cents. Russian census at the turn of the 20th century provided the most reliable historical population statistics. According to Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary, the ethnic composition of the population of Kars region was as follows:
Русские составляют 7% населения, греки 13½%, курды 15%, армяне 21½%, турки 24%, карапапахи (адербейд. тат.) 14%, туркмены 5%. Православных 14%, сектантов 5%, армяно-грегориан 21%, остальных христианских исповеданий ¾%, магометан 53% (суннитов 46% и шиитов 7%), последователей секты али-аллахи — 5%, езидов — 1¼%.
Russians 7%, Greeks 13½%, Kurds 15%, Armenians 21½%, Turks 24%, Karapapakhs (Azerbaijani Tatars (i.e. Azerbaijanis) 14%, Turkmens 5%. Orthodox 14%, sectarians 5%, Armeno-Gregorian 21%, other Christians ¾%, Muslims 53% (Sunni 46% and Shia 7%), Ali-Allahi sectarians — 5%, Yezidi — 1¼%. [10]
Karapapaks are a sub-ethnic group of Azerbaijanis. So if we include the name in Armenian, which was spoken by 21% of population, and Kurdish, which was spoken by 15% of the population, then why Azerbaijanis, who were 14% are excluded? They also had a historical presence in Kars, and live there now, even though no reliable statistics of the present Azerbaijani population are available. The inclusion of Azerbaijani is justified by the criterion of being a language "used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". Grand master 20:22, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
The large majority of Azeris living in the Kars province were transferred there following the 1918-1925 population exchanges with former Soviet Armenia.
In 1878 three-fourth of the inhabitants of the Kars oblast were Moslem, but in the following two years approximately seventy-five thousand of them sought refuge within the Ottoman Empire. Their abandoned lands were repopulated by Russian religious dissenters and Turkish Armenians who continued to filter across the border. An Armenian plurality was gradually established in the two southern okrugs ("counties") of the oblast.
Карс, областной город Карсской области: Население, плотность которого немногим превышает 15 ч. на 1 кв. в., состоит из русских (12½%), греков (14%), курдов (6½%), осетин (½%), армян (29%), айсоров (½%), турок (9½%), карапапахов (22½%), туркмен (3½%) и других народностей (1½%).
Kars, provincial centre of the Kars Oblast: The population of which the density is barely higher than 15 people per 1 sq. km. consists of Russians (12.5%), Greeks (14%), Kurds (6.5%), Ossetians (0.5%), Armenians (29%), Assyrians (0.5%), Turks (9.5%), Karapapaks (22.5%), Turkmen (3.5%) and others (1.5%).
It seems to me that there are two options. According to the data above, Armenians and Azerbaijanis were roughly equal in number at the time of the census. Logically, if we are to put the name used by one ethnic group in the article, we must also include the other, since their numbers and significance as a portion of the population were roughly equal. Rwenonah ( talk) 19:41, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
What is this "Old Turkish"? Does such a term actually exist? This rather dubuious phrase has been added, I think, as a result of some offhand comments made earlier in this thread. I would like to see an exact quote of the text being cited, and after that some sort of proof that the phrase exists as a proper linguistic term. Otherwise, the suspicion is that all the source is claiming is that the "gh" pronounciation arose during the time Kars was part of the Ottoman Empire or when it was one of the petty Turkish-ruled states that preceeded the Ottoman capture. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Tea with toast ( talk · contribs) 00:09, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
It will probably take me a few days to complete this review, but I intend to finish in a week's time. Just a few items that need to be taken care of in the meantime:
Happy editing! -- Tea with toast (話) 00:09, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Tea with toast, mate i am busy with tose college stuff at the moment so can we put this on hold for some time? kazekagetr 08:25, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Armenian spelling is in the etymology section. Despite this, the editors are trying to bring it to the forefront. Armenian is not a language used in Turkey. There is no Armenian population living in kars. I did not remove the armenian spelling. Armenian spelling is be situated in etymology section. To do this is to use wikipedia for propaganda purposes.-- ArslanYabgu ( talk) 10:38, 19 February 2017 (UTC)