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As the talk page was longer than 30 kilobytes (thus longer than preferable) and recently there has been no active discussions, I archived the old talk page. Kaiser 747 09:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, when I was archivating the talk page a few days ago I have noticed that there were several unanswered questions regarding the Kleinlitauen. I am interested in East Prussia (and in general in German communities that exist or existed outside the borders of modern Germany) and have read much about the history and demography of the area, hence I will answer those questions and add some references to the article.
Firstly, it was asked when did Lithuanians came to this area. The answer to this question is not that simple. The area had been inhabitted by Western Balts and Eastern Balts by the time of Teutonic arrival. The Western Baltic tribes in the area eventually consolidated into the Baltic Prussian nation, (which assimilated into Germans by late medieval), while the Eastern Baltic tribes consolidated into a part of the Lithuanian nation. The major lands of Eastern Balts were Nadruva (Nadrava, Nadrowia), Skalva (Scalew, Scalowia, Schalven, Schalauen) and Pilsotas (terra Pilsaten; the first two were in the eastern part of modern Kaliningrad Oblast, while Pilsotas was in what was later known as Memelland). Hennenberger, Hartknoch and other scholars used to believe that Nadruva and Skalva were inhabitted by Lithuanians (sources: Caspar Hennenberger, Erklärung der Preussischen grösseren Landtaffel, Königsberg, 1575. Chr. Hartknoch, Alt- und Neues Preussische Historien, Frankfurt, 1684). Some other reasearchers (for example, Mortensen, Toeppen (source: M. Toeppen, Historische-comparative Geographie von Preußen, Gotha, 1958, p. 34.) believes that these lands were closer to the Baltic Prussians than Lithuanians, and that these territories lituanized later, after the demise of Prussian nation. Both views are supported until these days, however now the belief that Nadruva and Skalva were culturally and ethnically inbetween Lithuanains and Prussians is most probable.
This has been well researched by the German historians and ethnographers. The exact territories inhabitted by Prussians and proto-Lithuanians at the prehistoric times can be traced based on placenames and hydronims (example – the common endings of German town names “kehmen”, “kallen” and “uppen” indicates the previous Lithuanian presence, as they are derrived from Lithuanian language words meaning courtyard, hill and river; while endings “keim”, “garben” and “appen” indicates Prussian presence, as they are derived from Old Prussian language words meaning the same). Major research in this area was done by Bezzenberger, who estimated that approximate boundary between the two groups to run along Kirschnakeim, Ripkeim, Kuthkeim, Starkeim, Koskeim, Silzkeim, Windkeim, Salpkeim, Redigkeimen and Labkeim (source: A. Bezzenberger, Die litauisch-preubische Grenze.- Altpreußische Monatsschrift, XIX–XX, 1882–1883 ), thus more than half of modern Kaliningrad Oblast was inhabitted by proto-Lithuanians, and less the remaining part mostly by Prussians by the time the Teutonic Order came to the area. This assumption over the area was and is as well supported by other researchers – among ones more known, Lohmeyer and Trautmann (sources: K. Lohmeyer, Geschichte von Ost- und Westpreußen, Gotha, 1908; R. Trautmann, Die Altpreußischen Sprachdenkmaler,Göttingen, 1909.). Of course, only the western and southern boundaries are explained here – eastern and northern boundaries naturally went along the German-Lithuanian (and since the partitions of Poland – German-Russian) border, beyond which Lithuania-proper started.
As well, researches about the extent of Lithuanian-speaking population can be done based on the extent of the area where the Lithuanian language was used in churches, and, for the modern times, censuses.
The term Lithuania Minor (as Kleinlittaw) itself was first used to describe the Lithuanian inhabitted area in a written source in Prussian Chronicle by Simon Grunau that was written from 1517 to 1526. Later other chronicle writers started to use this term as well (example – L. David), and the first maps with the territory marked as Lithuania Minor were published in the 18th century (example – map by Guessefeld dating from 1795).
As for Lithuanian actual control of the area, indeed eastern parts of modern Kaliningrad Oblast were once controlled by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but that was centuries ago – the territories were lost to the Teutonic Order State by king Mindaugas in year 1253. The term Lithuania Minor was therefore used because of the ethnicity of local population not because the area was once ruled by Lithuania.
Over the time, the extent of Lithuania Minor did decrease, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries, when improving transportation and urbanization led many Germans to move into the cities in lands inhabitted by Lithuanians, many Lithuanians moved out, there were assimilation processes going on as there was no national revival and German language of course provided more oppurtunities in East Prussia. By the time of World War 1, Lithuanians still made a majority in Memelland (of 50.8% in whole region (Germans made up 43.8%) according to the census of 1923). But elsewhere Lithuanian language majority areas were primarilly concentrated no more than 30-40 kilometers south of the Memel river (Neman, Nemunas); around Tilsit, Ragnit and other nearby towns, and in all places this majority was relatively fragile.
Another question is did the Lithuanians of Lithuania Minor actually considered themselves as a nation. Indeed, during the cultural revival the Lithuanian identity was promoted (example: the works of Donelaitis (published later as a single novel ‘’Metai’’, which was as well translated into German later)) supported the identity of Lithuanian peasants by promoting the idea that Lithuanian language and culture and the peasant way of life is not any worse than that of the German landlords. They used word “lietuvininkas” to describe themselves which was at the time synonymous to “lietuvis” used by the Lithuanians in Lithuania proper (in first chronicles derivations from both words appears as descriptions Lithuanians). The 1918 Act of Tilsit signed by some most prominent figures of the area asked that Lithuania Minor would be united with Lithuania-proper and during the early 20th century this was the goal of many Lithuanians from the area. However, it is also worth of noting that when the Memelland was incorporated to Lithuania in 1923 and a census was carried, some of the local Lithuanians (I don’t have the particular information now, therefore I cannot say the exact percentage, but maybe it would be possible to check) signed their ethnicity as “Klaipedians” rather than Lithuanians. This means that some people of Lithuania Minor considered themselves to be different from Lithuanians despite of speaking the same language – after all, they had different religion, and as for example Serb- Croat- Bosniak relations proves, religion indeed is sometimes the major criteria for defining nation, and the economical difference between the relatively backwards Lithuania-proper and richer economically (and as well culturally) Memelland as well played a role here. Although Lithuanians of Kleinlitauen were always considered to be part of the same nation by the German ethnographers already mentioned in this article, I have no sources for now on when exactly the ideas for unification with Lithuania-proper spread across the Kleinlitauen - I assume it might have been in 19th century, when national revival happened in Lithuania-proper as well. But here I cannot assure it by 100%.
I hope this helps. Kaiser 747 10:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
See Talk:Kaliningrad
This page could be merged with or redirected to Královec after the very successful and very legal referendum on Kaliningrad joining the Czech Republic. [1] [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.132.188.34 ( talk) 06:38, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
The article is not clear on the size of the landmass of the oblast. This ought to be stated either near the very top of the article, or else at the very least under the 'Geography' heading. - Mauco 12:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
In my view, the passage "During the time of the Soviet Union, usage of the Russian language was heavily promoted. There were no schools that taught in German, Lithuanian, or other languages, and few cultural activities for minorities." is illogical, because it is clear from the article that native Germans and Lithuanians left in 1945. So, there was no reason to promote the Russian language - everybdy already spoke Russian. There were no minorities that could possibly be taught in German or Lithuanian.
Interestingly, according to "Demographics" "Almost none of the pre-World War 2 Lithuanian population (Lietuvininks) or German population remains in the Kaliningrad Oblast.". In my view, someone here wants to "have his cake and eat it.". He should say either these people remained, or they did not. I think they did not, judging from the rest of the article. I am leaving the rest of that paragraph more or less at it was, although as far as growing interest for Lithuanian culture and language is concerned, it is completely unsourced. User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy-- pgp 21:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I cannot believe that 100% of the Germanic population left in 1945, although very likely those that didn't leave became Russified very quickly to avoid discrimination ( and the Communist party would deny they existed in any case ). In addition more Germanic refugees might have arrived in Karlingrad for one reason or another soon after the war. The Russian persecution of ethnic minorities, particularly distrusted ones, is well documented.
The 'growing interest for Lithuanian culture and language is concerned' might be POV of the author or self interest of the inhabitants : the gap in living standards between Lithunian and kalingrad is large and getting larger. David J. James
Some of the links were clearly POV. Two of them were unaccessible. Those two and another one, a treatise from 1992 purporting to prove that Kaliningrad was, is and will ever be Lithuanian, were deleted before. The Pravda article was old and gave no information - except the fact that some Russians in defence against the ludicrous claim above are now pointing out that if Lithuania claims it was never part of the Soviet Union, it should give up the parts that it was given during those years. Well, since the Lithuanian link was gone, no reason to keep that one. An interesting thought of course, but it really belongs in the article (and in the Memelland article), as this article is too Lithuanian-sided as it stands.
The Master's thesis by Sergey Naumkin: I read it and I wonder where this author got his history lessons. He thinks Vyborg was annexed by Russia when Finland became a part of the Russian empire. In fact it is just the other way around: before 1809, Vyborg was Russian, and only then was it added to Finland. With that caveat, let us leave it here: interesting as far as the economic issue is concerned.-- [User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy | Pan Gerwazy] 23:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC).
I' ve got your point on Vyborg history. Thesis revised. Can not put it into e-library, as resource is dead, therefore changed a link.(Sergey Naumkin), 30.01.2007
This article is absolutely dominated by discussion of pre-1945 history (perhaps 2/3 of the content), and the bits about the place today (people, economy, politics, disputes, climate, etc, etc) are tiny, and need to be expanded. Should I add tags? Jd2718 19:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The map was to small und not good visible on Laptops. I replaced it and had to change the text, first word must be followed by ]] and last word must start with [[ (because the template wants it so). As long as there is no good other map I think this is the best solution. -- Der Eberswalder 01:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC) You can try this map (Sergey Naumkin, 30.01.2007)
This territory was once known as Prussia before taken by the Soviet Union and there are virtually no germans there after they were expelled. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Prussia was not freed as a sattelite country because there were no Germans in their ancestrial land to claim it to be freed. Many German People wish to go back to Prussia and there are several groups wanting hostile takover of the area which includes: neo-nazis, Russian Seperatist, Muslim Extremeist, Ancestral Prussians, and other supporters, the move is backed by the west. The Russian government has considered changing the name of the city Kaliningrad back to Kronigsberg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theerasofwar ( talk • contribs) 10:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Neo-nazis and Muslim Extremists !! backed by the west !! Never heard anything more absurd.( HerkusMonte ( talk) 15:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC))
Ancestral Prussians are 90 years old and in nursing homes in the Black Forest buddy! If any thing they bring you euros for your economy so they can look at the nice Stalin blocks you put up in place of the wonderful old building that got bombed out. Put down the Russian hyper-nationalism pipe. Even the real threat you speak of to mother Russia, the Russian separatists are maybe a few hundred people. and of course Muslim extremists are all over that part of Europe! ha. ha. good one.
as for the name change that is a legit part of the article to add! Is it the only city in Russia that still has a soviet era name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.7.10 ( talk) 10:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
It’s a great gag, though. You seize their land, and throw them out, and then say they can’t rightfully claim it back, because they are not there! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.240.177 ( talk) 16:10, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
It looks like the legal status of the territory is not very firm. A paragraph should state what the situation is. Two good sources [1], [2]-- Stor stark7 Speak 23:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
"it has no land connection to the rest of Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991."
the sentence seems to imply that it had a land connection before, which is obviously not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.37.118 ( talk) 11:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
There were several railway lines passing through Lithuanian SSR to Belorussian SSS and Latvian SSR. During the days of Soviet Union it did much matter if that town was on the Lithuanian side or in Kaliningrad side of the internal Soviet Republics or Oblast borders. Of which I would like to have more information, is how this "Corridor Traffic" to and from Kaliningrad Oblast through EU and NATO member independent Lithuania is arranged with some kind of common agreement or just by an agreement between Russian Federation and Republic of Lithuania. This is going to introduce much trouble, if EU is not granted with equal terms to use the area of Kaliningrad Oblast with its internal railway connections to and from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. Mainly the question is of the use of Korsze (Poland) - Pagegiai (Lithuania) railway line through Kaliningrad Oblast territory. Former DRB main line Korschen - Gerdauen - Insterburg - Tilsit - Pagegiai. The Russians lifted after 1945 most of the former DRB branch lines on their side of the new border. Only the Samland lines were retained and the former Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo) - Braunsberg (Braniewo) and Preussische Eylau (Bagrationovks) - Glommen (Glomno) cross border sections of the former DRB main lines. All other cross border lines were lifted and the rails used elsewhere in Soviet Union. There was in July 2008 only one passenger train between Poland and Kaliningrad Oblast running from / to Gdynia to Kaliningrad over Braniewo - Mamonovo section of former DRB Berlin - Königsberg main line. But at the same time the Russian trains (departure from Kaliningrad at 09.49, 11.47, 14.06, 16,27, and 22.09) were running through Lithuanian territory to various places in Russia and Ukraine. The return workings arrived to Kaliningrad at 08.54, 10.29, 12.06, 18.07, and 20.34 according to offical Russian timetable. All run through Vilnius. The Lithuanians in Vilnius have a pleasure to look the Russian Kaliningrad through trains at Vilnius main railway station at 00.49 - 01.09, 01.44 - 02.03, 02.54 - 03.14, 04.20 - 04.37, 10.14 - 10.31, 12.43 - 13.00, 15.31 - 15.49, 17.29 - 17.47, 19.42 - 20.00, 22.21 - 22.39. This in addition to Lithuania - Belarus - Russia trains (departure to Minsk at 06.37 and 14.16 arrival from Minsk 11.10 and 18.46). To Moscow at 17.00 and arrive from Moscow at 07.48. Departure to St.Perersburg at 18.12 and arrival from St.Petersburg at 08.29. This seems to be even more than in Warsaw Central Station. And not even single direct train connection between Kaliningrad and Warsaw. In summer 1939 Königsberg Hbf was a busy station with its international direct train connections to Belgium, France, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Free Town Danzig and through passenger cars to other destinations such as Breslau and Praha and Wien. Much have changed since the Russians entered in the scene of former Königsberg, No west but east, this principe followed. The isolationism of the Russian way in traffic conditions. The Hong Kong of Europe? Russian dream from time before Vladimir Putin, unless Kaliningrad can offer even more international fast express train services than German Königsberg in summer 1939 and these elsewhere in Europe than to Russia.
The current map is not useful for people visiting the page who want to know where this territory is located. It needs a "zoomed" Central European map. Airborne84 ( talk) 21:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The date of joining RSFSR (i.e. 04 April 1946) doesn't mean that Kaliningrad oblast has been established. The date should be based on that name "Kaliningrad" has been adopted. 173.33.62.229 ( talk) 13:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Калининградская область образована Указами Президиума Верховного Совета СССР от 7 апреля 1946 года "Об образовании Кенигсбергской области в составе РСФСР" и 4 июля 1946 года "О переименовании города Кенигсберга в город Калининград и Кенигсбергской области в Калининградскую область"...
Образовать Кенигсбергскую область на территории города Кенигсберга и прилегающих к нему районов с центром в городе Кенигсберге. (Establish Kyonigsberg Oblast on the territory of the city of Kyonigsberg and the adjacent areas with the center in the city of Kyonigsberg)
Включить Кенигсбергскую область в состав Российской Советской Федеративной Социалистической Республики. (Include Kyonigsberg Oblast into the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic)
Переименовать город Кенигсберг в город Калининград и Кенигсбергскую область в Калининградскую область. (Rename the city of Kyonigsberg as Kaliningrad and Kyonigsberg Oblast as Kaliningrad Oblast)
These are the complete texts of the decrees.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); April 27, 2011; 15:07 (UTC)
currently the article says "it is one of Russia's best performing regional economies" and "the economic situation has been badly affected by the geographic isolation"; not necessarily contradictory, but it's unclear what conclusion the reader should draw. Is the economy good or bad, and compared to what, other regions, or to what it "should" be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.97.122 ( talk) 15:47, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Are Poland and Lithuania blockading land-transport to and from the oblast? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 ( talk) 17:30, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, the EU countries have border control and passport control. Only qualified persons and vehicles may pass; all others must go by air or sea. 75.208.2.44 ( talk) 03:41, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I have removed the following statement:
According to the U.S. record of the Potsdam Conference, the Soviets justified their demand for Königsberg by saying they required an "ice-free" port on the Baltic. 1 This hoary old excuse was disproved long ago, but lives on among people who know nothing of the region because it was quoted in official documents at the time.
George F. Kennan, then deputy chief of the U.S. diplomatic mission in Moscow, in his Memoirs later observed that the Soviets already controlled three nearby ports on the Baltic. He noted that Königsberg lay at the end of an artificial canal leading to the Kurisches Haff — a canal that was ice-bound for several months each winter. "Thus it was true neither that Russia lacked ice-free ports on the Baltic nor that Königsberg would have filled such a need had it existed," Kennan wrote. "Yet Stalin’s statements on this subject went unchallenged, so far as I can ascertain, at all the wartime conferences." 2
Kennan added in his Memoirs that postwar editions of the Soviet Encyclopedia described Königsberg (renamed Kaliningrad in 1946) as "ice-free," and said humorously, "If anyone thought, after 1945, that he saw ice in the canal at Königsberg, he didn’t." 3
_____________________
Sca ( talk) 21:07, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
_____________________
_____________________
To illustrate these points:
Summary: It is an easy mistake to make for anyone not familiar with maritime transport that 'ice-free' means 'no ice at all'. In fact, the term applies to the approaches of a port in question. (There is usually no sea ice off Baltiysk.) This allows ships to get to the port (not neccessarily IN the port) without assistance. The problem at Kaliningrad is not ice, but wind. The predominant wind direction in the region is west to southwest. This means that the other ports mentioned (Klaipeda, Liepaja, and Ventspils) have landward winds. This is not a bad thing if you want to get into port with a sailing boat - but in case of an emergency it spells doom to a striken vessel which may possibly shatter on the coast. It also means that drift ice accumulates on the shore, making access to the port difficult. BTW: (In December 1943, when Stalin made his first demand, neither of the other ports where in Soviet hands.) Under these circumstances Stalin's demand for Kaliningrad makes perfect sense as any other port (e.g. Gdansk or Szczecin) would be within Poland's reach and Greifswald or Rostock would be under the control of the Allies for some time until a peace treaty would have been negotiated. Kennan's memoirs in this point give more insights into the origins of the Cold War than the end of World War II. ÄDA - DÄP VA ( talk) 17:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
The lead paragraph currently states It is the only Baltic port in the Russian Federation that remains ice-free in winter. But there are no Russian Baltic ports that are not in the oblast. So what does 'it' actually refer to here - just the port of Kalingrad (or Baltiysk) rather than the entire oblast? We should try to clarify. jxm ( talk) 18:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
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Currently, the economy of Kaliningrad Oblast is one of the best performing economies in Russia.
Is the rest of Russia "Russia proper" or "the main part of Russia"? According to Wiktionary, a definition of "proper" is "In the strict sense; within the strict definition or core (of a specified place, taxonomic order, idea, etc) (usually postpositive, i.e. follows the noun it modifies)". It gives the following example: "Siberia, though it stands outside the territorial confines of Russia proper, constitutes an essentially component part […]". My vote is for "proper". Laurel Lodged ( talk) 13:26, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
I have followed this debate and I believe 'proper' in this case has a different meaning from its more common usage that implies 'correct' or 'better'. The difference is subtle and may not be picked up by many dictionary definitions. As a native English speaker I see nothing in the term 'Russia proper' in this sentence that implies the an inferior status of the Oblast and even though 'Russia main' also does not imply an inferior status I think 'Russia proper' reads better. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
I have no opinion on this, nor am I a native speaker, but out of curiosity, would referring to the continental United States as "the United States proper" in the Alaska article also be appropriate? Would it sound natural? How does that compare to the Kaliningrad Oblast—"Russia main/proper" situation?— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); April 8, 2016; 13:35 (UTC)
A good point and for no, in discussing Alaska reference to the United States proper would not sound right. I have now asked myself the same question regarding other parts of the world. France-Reunion; Spain-Ceuta: New Zealand-Chatham Islands, Canada-Newfoundland. In each case the answer seems to differ about whether using 'proper' sounds right or not. There does seem to be a link between the perception of how close the exclave is to the main body of the country, and that perception will differ between different people. The history of the growth of the USA means there is a far less well defined area that could be called 'the real' USA than, say, France-Reunion. In the Russian context it is hard to overlook the fact that the Oblast was German speaking East Prussia for centuries until 1945. Its artificial inclusion into Russia by annexation cannot be overlooked, and that may be why using 'Russia proper' in that context sounds better for me. The distinction is less clear for Russia-Crimea. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 14:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
On a number of websites one can find statements to the effect that Russia offered to return the area to Germany. Are there any sources for this other than newspapers and magazines? After all, the latter love a good story even if it's not true. Norvo ( talk) 00:29, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
I do not have the source material you ask for but I do remember there was talk of creating German speaking enclaves within the USSR during the late 1980's and possibly to return East Prussia. From memory these talks involved Gorbachov and Kohl. Gorbachov wanted to get German money to help the then dismal Soviet economy so any return would be by way of selling the land to Germany.I also recall it was reported that the Germans were worried at any reported hint that Germany was returning to a policy of eastward expansion. That might be why the idea never took off - too close to the end of the war. Perhaps it will come back again in the near future when the war generation has gone. Source material would be useful. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:47, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
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I removed the fourth paragraph in the lead, suggesting that the legal status of Kaliningrad is unclear. This is contradicted by the articles on the treaty it referenced. Germany gave up claims to East Prussia (according to Wikipedia; I didn't read the treaty). The deleted paragraph's placement in the lead gave undue weight to a single journal article; any restoration should be farther in. Vox Sciurorum ( talk) 23:36, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
The above sentence appears to be written by someone whose English isn't their First Language i.e., no ethnic Germans remain, but several thousand ethnic Germans live there . . . BTW, an "ethnic German" is an "ethnic German" per The Reasonable Person Theory -- but of course that can be destroyed by percentages, causing the use of such "approximators" as, "mostly ethnic German" (surely 51% cannot qualify as "mostly" in that regard -- the likely only way to resolve such matters is to assemble a room full of adherents of the Reasonable Person Theory and have at it. BTW, since I am ethnically 50% German and 50% Polish, I believe I represent the absolute highest qualities of both ethnicities, and thus would prefer to be for evermore around "ethnicities" of my ilk, although I suspect that many Halb und Halb's can't live up to my high expectations. The Very First Thing All-as-Qualified Appropriate Gene-o-types need to do is memorize the "Short Guide to the Brain" End Section in Dr. Paul Chauchard's 1962 English Edition of his book, The Brain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.243.100 ( talk) 11:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
I quote:
Under the terms of the Potsdam Agreement, the city became part of the Soviet Union pending the final determination of territorial questions at a peace settlement. This final determination never took place.
On September 12, 1990, Germany and Russia signed a treaty which says Germany cannot claim any land that is not within the borders of West Germany or East Germany. This treaty is listed here /info/en/?search=Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany. AFAIK, this is a final determination. So it is incorrect that wikipedia currently states, I quote, This final determination never took place.
45.74.75.118 ( talk) 01:40, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Any more than Israel is an exclave. They have access to ocean. Please correct this factual error.
208.72.125.2 ( talk) 21:45, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I suggest deleting this part from the article:
"The annexation of the territory, while supposedly on a temporary basis, was approved by the "Big Three" allied leaders of World War II in the Potsdam Agreement in 1945."
There is no source in the article that backs up the assertion the annexation was supposed to be temporary.
-- 208.72.125.2 ( talk) 22:11, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
VI. CITY OF KOENIGSBERG AND THE ADJACENT AREA The Conference examined a proposal by the Soviet Government that pending the final determination of territorial questions at the peace settlement, the section of the western frontier of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics which is adjacent to the Baltic Sea should pass from a point on the eastern shore of the Bay of Danzig to the east, north of Braunsberg – Goldep, to the meeting point of the frontiers of Lithuania, the Polish Republic and East Prussia.
The Conference has agreed in principle to the proposal of the Soviet Government concerning the ultimate transfer to the Soviet Union of the city of Koenigsberg and the area adjacent to it as described above, subject to expert examination of the actual frontier.
The President of the United States and the British Prime Minister have declared that they will support the proposal of the Conference at the forthcoming peace settlement.[23]
-- 206.176.146.31 ( talk) 02:43, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
Um @ Laurel Lodged:@ 204.197.178.96: - I'm not sure that was exactly what was being meant. But in looking closer the whole paragraph appears to be out of place in a section about a completely different time period. The whole Posdam annexation and aftermath is I believe accurately and appropriately covered in a later section within the article and I think we simply delete this additional random mention of the annexation. Andrewgprout ( talk) 05:58, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
The annexation of the territory, while supposedly on a temporary basis, was approved by the "Big Three" allied leaders of World War II in the Potsdam Agreement in 1945. Three years after the annexation by the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, the remaining two-thirds of East Prussia was annexed by Poland and is today organised into the Warmian-Masurian province.
If there is no objection, I will delete this part. -- 208.72.125.2 ( talk) 17:06, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
The other 84 federal subjects are contiguous with the Russian mainland. I think this might be worth mentioning in the article.
-- 208.72.125.2 ( talk) 16:25, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
You need permission to fly over. The seas are free to all. Important. 213.205.240.177 ( talk) 15:58, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Suppose it is grouped into Leningrad oblast due to its proximity to St. Petersburg, it would be contiguous with Moscow.
-- 208.72.125.2 ( talk) 17:08, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
No explanation here as to exactly why the place was seized by the Russians in the first place. This is the historic heart of Prussia, and Konigsberg was the old Prussian capital, before being moved to Berlin. The point of seizing it was part of the post-war aim of eliminating Prussia’s existence, as the bearers of an aggressive, war-like tradition. The old capital and part of old, or East Prussia was occupied to this end. With Stalin’s typical heavy-handed moving of people around like concrete blocks, the whole population was simply expelled, and replaced with Russians. The article should mention some of this. 213.205.240.177 ( talk) 16:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Kalininia. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 26#Kalininia until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 21:02, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Compare the photo to others online. Look at the spire in particular. The present image is substantially vertically stretched.
I reverted the recent addition with this edit: this diff; my rationale was: "Revert -- this is sourced to a memoir; a book from an extremist publisher; and an article that does not support the claim". For more information please see a discussion on my Talk page: Edit at Königsberg. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 17:29, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
This article ignores 30 years of problems of the transit. [3] Xx236 ( talk) 06:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
References
Is this Wikipedia Russian? Xx236 ( talk) 08:32, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
The location maps are not acceptable. They do not reflect a WP:neutral point of view. They do not show all states and disputed and occupied territories. They privilege and legitimize the Russian occupation of part of Ukraine by colouring it yellow or green, as if it were part of the Russian Federation. This is a Kremlin POV, showing its claimed annexation, and not all disputed territories neutrally.
Since Crimea actually belongs to another state, it should remain the same grey colour as other states. There is also a maritime boundary incorrectly shown between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine, and one omitted between Crimea and Russia in the Kerch Strait. If (all) disputed and occupied territories are indicated, then they should remain grey with stripes. That includes parts of Moldova, Georgia, and Ukraine, including parts of the Donbas that have been occupied long term. A location map should probably not show the fluid war occupation of 2022.
What do reliable sources do with maps? Britannica doesn’t do this. [4] [5] — Michael Z. 13:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Xx236 has a long pattern [7] of getting into fights and stepping out of civility with comments, especially on Russo-Ukrainian War related topics, and failing to distinguish between "standing up for what is right" (which is a noble cause to be sure) and "editing a wiki encyclopedia". We are here to report sourced information as-is, not to cleanse Wikipedia of any Russian claims (if Russian claims are part of the actual encyclopedic content then it's clearly labeled as "Russian claims" in some form, with appropriate other sourced content to dispute Russian claims if necessary).
The map shows Kaliningrad Oblast as a section of Russian territory. Being an exclave does not change the fact that it is a "section" (furthermore, it's just an oblast and not some special self-governing unit like Åland). The Russian map shows a disputed Republic of Crimea because Russia claims it under Russia law (however flimsily that law may have been enacted). Even though most of the international community does not recognize that claim, this article is talking about a Russian territory. 104.175.74.27 ( talk) 16:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Please correct the line that Kaliningrad Oblast became part of the Czech Republic in 2022. There was a satirical posting ( https://www.praguemorning.cz/czechs-troll-russia-with-mock-annexation-of-kaliningrad/) and it was added as a fact to this article. This can be verified in numerous sources. 76.119.248.216 ( talk) 21:54, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
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As the talk page was longer than 30 kilobytes (thus longer than preferable) and recently there has been no active discussions, I archived the old talk page. Kaiser 747 09:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
By the way, when I was archivating the talk page a few days ago I have noticed that there were several unanswered questions regarding the Kleinlitauen. I am interested in East Prussia (and in general in German communities that exist or existed outside the borders of modern Germany) and have read much about the history and demography of the area, hence I will answer those questions and add some references to the article.
Firstly, it was asked when did Lithuanians came to this area. The answer to this question is not that simple. The area had been inhabitted by Western Balts and Eastern Balts by the time of Teutonic arrival. The Western Baltic tribes in the area eventually consolidated into the Baltic Prussian nation, (which assimilated into Germans by late medieval), while the Eastern Baltic tribes consolidated into a part of the Lithuanian nation. The major lands of Eastern Balts were Nadruva (Nadrava, Nadrowia), Skalva (Scalew, Scalowia, Schalven, Schalauen) and Pilsotas (terra Pilsaten; the first two were in the eastern part of modern Kaliningrad Oblast, while Pilsotas was in what was later known as Memelland). Hennenberger, Hartknoch and other scholars used to believe that Nadruva and Skalva were inhabitted by Lithuanians (sources: Caspar Hennenberger, Erklärung der Preussischen grösseren Landtaffel, Königsberg, 1575. Chr. Hartknoch, Alt- und Neues Preussische Historien, Frankfurt, 1684). Some other reasearchers (for example, Mortensen, Toeppen (source: M. Toeppen, Historische-comparative Geographie von Preußen, Gotha, 1958, p. 34.) believes that these lands were closer to the Baltic Prussians than Lithuanians, and that these territories lituanized later, after the demise of Prussian nation. Both views are supported until these days, however now the belief that Nadruva and Skalva were culturally and ethnically inbetween Lithuanains and Prussians is most probable.
This has been well researched by the German historians and ethnographers. The exact territories inhabitted by Prussians and proto-Lithuanians at the prehistoric times can be traced based on placenames and hydronims (example – the common endings of German town names “kehmen”, “kallen” and “uppen” indicates the previous Lithuanian presence, as they are derrived from Lithuanian language words meaning courtyard, hill and river; while endings “keim”, “garben” and “appen” indicates Prussian presence, as they are derived from Old Prussian language words meaning the same). Major research in this area was done by Bezzenberger, who estimated that approximate boundary between the two groups to run along Kirschnakeim, Ripkeim, Kuthkeim, Starkeim, Koskeim, Silzkeim, Windkeim, Salpkeim, Redigkeimen and Labkeim (source: A. Bezzenberger, Die litauisch-preubische Grenze.- Altpreußische Monatsschrift, XIX–XX, 1882–1883 ), thus more than half of modern Kaliningrad Oblast was inhabitted by proto-Lithuanians, and less the remaining part mostly by Prussians by the time the Teutonic Order came to the area. This assumption over the area was and is as well supported by other researchers – among ones more known, Lohmeyer and Trautmann (sources: K. Lohmeyer, Geschichte von Ost- und Westpreußen, Gotha, 1908; R. Trautmann, Die Altpreußischen Sprachdenkmaler,Göttingen, 1909.). Of course, only the western and southern boundaries are explained here – eastern and northern boundaries naturally went along the German-Lithuanian (and since the partitions of Poland – German-Russian) border, beyond which Lithuania-proper started.
As well, researches about the extent of Lithuanian-speaking population can be done based on the extent of the area where the Lithuanian language was used in churches, and, for the modern times, censuses.
The term Lithuania Minor (as Kleinlittaw) itself was first used to describe the Lithuanian inhabitted area in a written source in Prussian Chronicle by Simon Grunau that was written from 1517 to 1526. Later other chronicle writers started to use this term as well (example – L. David), and the first maps with the territory marked as Lithuania Minor were published in the 18th century (example – map by Guessefeld dating from 1795).
As for Lithuanian actual control of the area, indeed eastern parts of modern Kaliningrad Oblast were once controlled by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but that was centuries ago – the territories were lost to the Teutonic Order State by king Mindaugas in year 1253. The term Lithuania Minor was therefore used because of the ethnicity of local population not because the area was once ruled by Lithuania.
Over the time, the extent of Lithuania Minor did decrease, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries, when improving transportation and urbanization led many Germans to move into the cities in lands inhabitted by Lithuanians, many Lithuanians moved out, there were assimilation processes going on as there was no national revival and German language of course provided more oppurtunities in East Prussia. By the time of World War 1, Lithuanians still made a majority in Memelland (of 50.8% in whole region (Germans made up 43.8%) according to the census of 1923). But elsewhere Lithuanian language majority areas were primarilly concentrated no more than 30-40 kilometers south of the Memel river (Neman, Nemunas); around Tilsit, Ragnit and other nearby towns, and in all places this majority was relatively fragile.
Another question is did the Lithuanians of Lithuania Minor actually considered themselves as a nation. Indeed, during the cultural revival the Lithuanian identity was promoted (example: the works of Donelaitis (published later as a single novel ‘’Metai’’, which was as well translated into German later)) supported the identity of Lithuanian peasants by promoting the idea that Lithuanian language and culture and the peasant way of life is not any worse than that of the German landlords. They used word “lietuvininkas” to describe themselves which was at the time synonymous to “lietuvis” used by the Lithuanians in Lithuania proper (in first chronicles derivations from both words appears as descriptions Lithuanians). The 1918 Act of Tilsit signed by some most prominent figures of the area asked that Lithuania Minor would be united with Lithuania-proper and during the early 20th century this was the goal of many Lithuanians from the area. However, it is also worth of noting that when the Memelland was incorporated to Lithuania in 1923 and a census was carried, some of the local Lithuanians (I don’t have the particular information now, therefore I cannot say the exact percentage, but maybe it would be possible to check) signed their ethnicity as “Klaipedians” rather than Lithuanians. This means that some people of Lithuania Minor considered themselves to be different from Lithuanians despite of speaking the same language – after all, they had different religion, and as for example Serb- Croat- Bosniak relations proves, religion indeed is sometimes the major criteria for defining nation, and the economical difference between the relatively backwards Lithuania-proper and richer economically (and as well culturally) Memelland as well played a role here. Although Lithuanians of Kleinlitauen were always considered to be part of the same nation by the German ethnographers already mentioned in this article, I have no sources for now on when exactly the ideas for unification with Lithuania-proper spread across the Kleinlitauen - I assume it might have been in 19th century, when national revival happened in Lithuania-proper as well. But here I cannot assure it by 100%.
I hope this helps. Kaiser 747 10:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
See Talk:Kaliningrad
This page could be merged with or redirected to Královec after the very successful and very legal referendum on Kaliningrad joining the Czech Republic. [1] [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.132.188.34 ( talk) 06:38, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
The article is not clear on the size of the landmass of the oblast. This ought to be stated either near the very top of the article, or else at the very least under the 'Geography' heading. - Mauco 12:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
In my view, the passage "During the time of the Soviet Union, usage of the Russian language was heavily promoted. There were no schools that taught in German, Lithuanian, or other languages, and few cultural activities for minorities." is illogical, because it is clear from the article that native Germans and Lithuanians left in 1945. So, there was no reason to promote the Russian language - everybdy already spoke Russian. There were no minorities that could possibly be taught in German or Lithuanian.
Interestingly, according to "Demographics" "Almost none of the pre-World War 2 Lithuanian population (Lietuvininks) or German population remains in the Kaliningrad Oblast.". In my view, someone here wants to "have his cake and eat it.". He should say either these people remained, or they did not. I think they did not, judging from the rest of the article. I am leaving the rest of that paragraph more or less at it was, although as far as growing interest for Lithuanian culture and language is concerned, it is completely unsourced. User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy-- pgp 21:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I cannot believe that 100% of the Germanic population left in 1945, although very likely those that didn't leave became Russified very quickly to avoid discrimination ( and the Communist party would deny they existed in any case ). In addition more Germanic refugees might have arrived in Karlingrad for one reason or another soon after the war. The Russian persecution of ethnic minorities, particularly distrusted ones, is well documented.
The 'growing interest for Lithuanian culture and language is concerned' might be POV of the author or self interest of the inhabitants : the gap in living standards between Lithunian and kalingrad is large and getting larger. David J. James
Some of the links were clearly POV. Two of them were unaccessible. Those two and another one, a treatise from 1992 purporting to prove that Kaliningrad was, is and will ever be Lithuanian, were deleted before. The Pravda article was old and gave no information - except the fact that some Russians in defence against the ludicrous claim above are now pointing out that if Lithuania claims it was never part of the Soviet Union, it should give up the parts that it was given during those years. Well, since the Lithuanian link was gone, no reason to keep that one. An interesting thought of course, but it really belongs in the article (and in the Memelland article), as this article is too Lithuanian-sided as it stands.
The Master's thesis by Sergey Naumkin: I read it and I wonder where this author got his history lessons. He thinks Vyborg was annexed by Russia when Finland became a part of the Russian empire. In fact it is just the other way around: before 1809, Vyborg was Russian, and only then was it added to Finland. With that caveat, let us leave it here: interesting as far as the economic issue is concerned.-- [User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy | Pan Gerwazy] 23:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC).
I' ve got your point on Vyborg history. Thesis revised. Can not put it into e-library, as resource is dead, therefore changed a link.(Sergey Naumkin), 30.01.2007
This article is absolutely dominated by discussion of pre-1945 history (perhaps 2/3 of the content), and the bits about the place today (people, economy, politics, disputes, climate, etc, etc) are tiny, and need to be expanded. Should I add tags? Jd2718 19:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
The map was to small und not good visible on Laptops. I replaced it and had to change the text, first word must be followed by ]] and last word must start with [[ (because the template wants it so). As long as there is no good other map I think this is the best solution. -- Der Eberswalder 01:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC) You can try this map (Sergey Naumkin, 30.01.2007)
This territory was once known as Prussia before taken by the Soviet Union and there are virtually no germans there after they were expelled. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Prussia was not freed as a sattelite country because there were no Germans in their ancestrial land to claim it to be freed. Many German People wish to go back to Prussia and there are several groups wanting hostile takover of the area which includes: neo-nazis, Russian Seperatist, Muslim Extremeist, Ancestral Prussians, and other supporters, the move is backed by the west. The Russian government has considered changing the name of the city Kaliningrad back to Kronigsberg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theerasofwar ( talk • contribs) 10:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Neo-nazis and Muslim Extremists !! backed by the west !! Never heard anything more absurd.( HerkusMonte ( talk) 15:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC))
Ancestral Prussians are 90 years old and in nursing homes in the Black Forest buddy! If any thing they bring you euros for your economy so they can look at the nice Stalin blocks you put up in place of the wonderful old building that got bombed out. Put down the Russian hyper-nationalism pipe. Even the real threat you speak of to mother Russia, the Russian separatists are maybe a few hundred people. and of course Muslim extremists are all over that part of Europe! ha. ha. good one.
as for the name change that is a legit part of the article to add! Is it the only city in Russia that still has a soviet era name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.7.10 ( talk) 10:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
It’s a great gag, though. You seize their land, and throw them out, and then say they can’t rightfully claim it back, because they are not there! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.240.177 ( talk) 16:10, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
It looks like the legal status of the territory is not very firm. A paragraph should state what the situation is. Two good sources [1], [2]-- Stor stark7 Speak 23:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
"it has no land connection to the rest of Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991."
the sentence seems to imply that it had a land connection before, which is obviously not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.37.118 ( talk) 11:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
There were several railway lines passing through Lithuanian SSR to Belorussian SSS and Latvian SSR. During the days of Soviet Union it did much matter if that town was on the Lithuanian side or in Kaliningrad side of the internal Soviet Republics or Oblast borders. Of which I would like to have more information, is how this "Corridor Traffic" to and from Kaliningrad Oblast through EU and NATO member independent Lithuania is arranged with some kind of common agreement or just by an agreement between Russian Federation and Republic of Lithuania. This is going to introduce much trouble, if EU is not granted with equal terms to use the area of Kaliningrad Oblast with its internal railway connections to and from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. Mainly the question is of the use of Korsze (Poland) - Pagegiai (Lithuania) railway line through Kaliningrad Oblast territory. Former DRB main line Korschen - Gerdauen - Insterburg - Tilsit - Pagegiai. The Russians lifted after 1945 most of the former DRB branch lines on their side of the new border. Only the Samland lines were retained and the former Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo) - Braunsberg (Braniewo) and Preussische Eylau (Bagrationovks) - Glommen (Glomno) cross border sections of the former DRB main lines. All other cross border lines were lifted and the rails used elsewhere in Soviet Union. There was in July 2008 only one passenger train between Poland and Kaliningrad Oblast running from / to Gdynia to Kaliningrad over Braniewo - Mamonovo section of former DRB Berlin - Königsberg main line. But at the same time the Russian trains (departure from Kaliningrad at 09.49, 11.47, 14.06, 16,27, and 22.09) were running through Lithuanian territory to various places in Russia and Ukraine. The return workings arrived to Kaliningrad at 08.54, 10.29, 12.06, 18.07, and 20.34 according to offical Russian timetable. All run through Vilnius. The Lithuanians in Vilnius have a pleasure to look the Russian Kaliningrad through trains at Vilnius main railway station at 00.49 - 01.09, 01.44 - 02.03, 02.54 - 03.14, 04.20 - 04.37, 10.14 - 10.31, 12.43 - 13.00, 15.31 - 15.49, 17.29 - 17.47, 19.42 - 20.00, 22.21 - 22.39. This in addition to Lithuania - Belarus - Russia trains (departure to Minsk at 06.37 and 14.16 arrival from Minsk 11.10 and 18.46). To Moscow at 17.00 and arrive from Moscow at 07.48. Departure to St.Perersburg at 18.12 and arrival from St.Petersburg at 08.29. This seems to be even more than in Warsaw Central Station. And not even single direct train connection between Kaliningrad and Warsaw. In summer 1939 Königsberg Hbf was a busy station with its international direct train connections to Belgium, France, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Free Town Danzig and through passenger cars to other destinations such as Breslau and Praha and Wien. Much have changed since the Russians entered in the scene of former Königsberg, No west but east, this principe followed. The isolationism of the Russian way in traffic conditions. The Hong Kong of Europe? Russian dream from time before Vladimir Putin, unless Kaliningrad can offer even more international fast express train services than German Königsberg in summer 1939 and these elsewhere in Europe than to Russia.
The current map is not useful for people visiting the page who want to know where this territory is located. It needs a "zoomed" Central European map. Airborne84 ( talk) 21:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The date of joining RSFSR (i.e. 04 April 1946) doesn't mean that Kaliningrad oblast has been established. The date should be based on that name "Kaliningrad" has been adopted. 173.33.62.229 ( talk) 13:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Калининградская область образована Указами Президиума Верховного Совета СССР от 7 апреля 1946 года "Об образовании Кенигсбергской области в составе РСФСР" и 4 июля 1946 года "О переименовании города Кенигсберга в город Калининград и Кенигсбергской области в Калининградскую область"...
Образовать Кенигсбергскую область на территории города Кенигсберга и прилегающих к нему районов с центром в городе Кенигсберге. (Establish Kyonigsberg Oblast on the territory of the city of Kyonigsberg and the adjacent areas with the center in the city of Kyonigsberg)
Включить Кенигсбергскую область в состав Российской Советской Федеративной Социалистической Республики. (Include Kyonigsberg Oblast into the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic)
Переименовать город Кенигсберг в город Калининград и Кенигсбергскую область в Калининградскую область. (Rename the city of Kyonigsberg as Kaliningrad and Kyonigsberg Oblast as Kaliningrad Oblast)
These are the complete texts of the decrees.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); April 27, 2011; 15:07 (UTC)
currently the article says "it is one of Russia's best performing regional economies" and "the economic situation has been badly affected by the geographic isolation"; not necessarily contradictory, but it's unclear what conclusion the reader should draw. Is the economy good or bad, and compared to what, other regions, or to what it "should" be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.97.122 ( talk) 15:47, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Are Poland and Lithuania blockading land-transport to and from the oblast? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 ( talk) 17:30, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, the EU countries have border control and passport control. Only qualified persons and vehicles may pass; all others must go by air or sea. 75.208.2.44 ( talk) 03:41, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I have removed the following statement:
According to the U.S. record of the Potsdam Conference, the Soviets justified their demand for Königsberg by saying they required an "ice-free" port on the Baltic. 1 This hoary old excuse was disproved long ago, but lives on among people who know nothing of the region because it was quoted in official documents at the time.
George F. Kennan, then deputy chief of the U.S. diplomatic mission in Moscow, in his Memoirs later observed that the Soviets already controlled three nearby ports on the Baltic. He noted that Königsberg lay at the end of an artificial canal leading to the Kurisches Haff — a canal that was ice-bound for several months each winter. "Thus it was true neither that Russia lacked ice-free ports on the Baltic nor that Königsberg would have filled such a need had it existed," Kennan wrote. "Yet Stalin’s statements on this subject went unchallenged, so far as I can ascertain, at all the wartime conferences." 2
Kennan added in his Memoirs that postwar editions of the Soviet Encyclopedia described Königsberg (renamed Kaliningrad in 1946) as "ice-free," and said humorously, "If anyone thought, after 1945, that he saw ice in the canal at Königsberg, he didn’t." 3
_____________________
Sca ( talk) 21:07, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
_____________________
_____________________
To illustrate these points:
Summary: It is an easy mistake to make for anyone not familiar with maritime transport that 'ice-free' means 'no ice at all'. In fact, the term applies to the approaches of a port in question. (There is usually no sea ice off Baltiysk.) This allows ships to get to the port (not neccessarily IN the port) without assistance. The problem at Kaliningrad is not ice, but wind. The predominant wind direction in the region is west to southwest. This means that the other ports mentioned (Klaipeda, Liepaja, and Ventspils) have landward winds. This is not a bad thing if you want to get into port with a sailing boat - but in case of an emergency it spells doom to a striken vessel which may possibly shatter on the coast. It also means that drift ice accumulates on the shore, making access to the port difficult. BTW: (In December 1943, when Stalin made his first demand, neither of the other ports where in Soviet hands.) Under these circumstances Stalin's demand for Kaliningrad makes perfect sense as any other port (e.g. Gdansk or Szczecin) would be within Poland's reach and Greifswald or Rostock would be under the control of the Allies for some time until a peace treaty would have been negotiated. Kennan's memoirs in this point give more insights into the origins of the Cold War than the end of World War II. ÄDA - DÄP VA ( talk) 17:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
The lead paragraph currently states It is the only Baltic port in the Russian Federation that remains ice-free in winter. But there are no Russian Baltic ports that are not in the oblast. So what does 'it' actually refer to here - just the port of Kalingrad (or Baltiysk) rather than the entire oblast? We should try to clarify. jxm ( talk) 18:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
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Currently, the economy of Kaliningrad Oblast is one of the best performing economies in Russia.
Is the rest of Russia "Russia proper" or "the main part of Russia"? According to Wiktionary, a definition of "proper" is "In the strict sense; within the strict definition or core (of a specified place, taxonomic order, idea, etc) (usually postpositive, i.e. follows the noun it modifies)". It gives the following example: "Siberia, though it stands outside the territorial confines of Russia proper, constitutes an essentially component part […]". My vote is for "proper". Laurel Lodged ( talk) 13:26, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
I have followed this debate and I believe 'proper' in this case has a different meaning from its more common usage that implies 'correct' or 'better'. The difference is subtle and may not be picked up by many dictionary definitions. As a native English speaker I see nothing in the term 'Russia proper' in this sentence that implies the an inferior status of the Oblast and even though 'Russia main' also does not imply an inferior status I think 'Russia proper' reads better. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
I have no opinion on this, nor am I a native speaker, but out of curiosity, would referring to the continental United States as "the United States proper" in the Alaska article also be appropriate? Would it sound natural? How does that compare to the Kaliningrad Oblast—"Russia main/proper" situation?— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); April 8, 2016; 13:35 (UTC)
A good point and for no, in discussing Alaska reference to the United States proper would not sound right. I have now asked myself the same question regarding other parts of the world. France-Reunion; Spain-Ceuta: New Zealand-Chatham Islands, Canada-Newfoundland. In each case the answer seems to differ about whether using 'proper' sounds right or not. There does seem to be a link between the perception of how close the exclave is to the main body of the country, and that perception will differ between different people. The history of the growth of the USA means there is a far less well defined area that could be called 'the real' USA than, say, France-Reunion. In the Russian context it is hard to overlook the fact that the Oblast was German speaking East Prussia for centuries until 1945. Its artificial inclusion into Russia by annexation cannot be overlooked, and that may be why using 'Russia proper' in that context sounds better for me. The distinction is less clear for Russia-Crimea. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 14:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
On a number of websites one can find statements to the effect that Russia offered to return the area to Germany. Are there any sources for this other than newspapers and magazines? After all, the latter love a good story even if it's not true. Norvo ( talk) 00:29, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
I do not have the source material you ask for but I do remember there was talk of creating German speaking enclaves within the USSR during the late 1980's and possibly to return East Prussia. From memory these talks involved Gorbachov and Kohl. Gorbachov wanted to get German money to help the then dismal Soviet economy so any return would be by way of selling the land to Germany.I also recall it was reported that the Germans were worried at any reported hint that Germany was returning to a policy of eastward expansion. That might be why the idea never took off - too close to the end of the war. Perhaps it will come back again in the near future when the war generation has gone. Source material would be useful. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:47, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
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I removed the fourth paragraph in the lead, suggesting that the legal status of Kaliningrad is unclear. This is contradicted by the articles on the treaty it referenced. Germany gave up claims to East Prussia (according to Wikipedia; I didn't read the treaty). The deleted paragraph's placement in the lead gave undue weight to a single journal article; any restoration should be farther in. Vox Sciurorum ( talk) 23:36, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
The above sentence appears to be written by someone whose English isn't their First Language i.e., no ethnic Germans remain, but several thousand ethnic Germans live there . . . BTW, an "ethnic German" is an "ethnic German" per The Reasonable Person Theory -- but of course that can be destroyed by percentages, causing the use of such "approximators" as, "mostly ethnic German" (surely 51% cannot qualify as "mostly" in that regard -- the likely only way to resolve such matters is to assemble a room full of adherents of the Reasonable Person Theory and have at it. BTW, since I am ethnically 50% German and 50% Polish, I believe I represent the absolute highest qualities of both ethnicities, and thus would prefer to be for evermore around "ethnicities" of my ilk, although I suspect that many Halb und Halb's can't live up to my high expectations. The Very First Thing All-as-Qualified Appropriate Gene-o-types need to do is memorize the "Short Guide to the Brain" End Section in Dr. Paul Chauchard's 1962 English Edition of his book, The Brain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.243.100 ( talk) 11:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
I quote:
Under the terms of the Potsdam Agreement, the city became part of the Soviet Union pending the final determination of territorial questions at a peace settlement. This final determination never took place.
On September 12, 1990, Germany and Russia signed a treaty which says Germany cannot claim any land that is not within the borders of West Germany or East Germany. This treaty is listed here /info/en/?search=Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany. AFAIK, this is a final determination. So it is incorrect that wikipedia currently states, I quote, This final determination never took place.
45.74.75.118 ( talk) 01:40, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Any more than Israel is an exclave. They have access to ocean. Please correct this factual error.
208.72.125.2 ( talk) 21:45, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I suggest deleting this part from the article:
"The annexation of the territory, while supposedly on a temporary basis, was approved by the "Big Three" allied leaders of World War II in the Potsdam Agreement in 1945."
There is no source in the article that backs up the assertion the annexation was supposed to be temporary.
-- 208.72.125.2 ( talk) 22:11, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
VI. CITY OF KOENIGSBERG AND THE ADJACENT AREA The Conference examined a proposal by the Soviet Government that pending the final determination of territorial questions at the peace settlement, the section of the western frontier of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics which is adjacent to the Baltic Sea should pass from a point on the eastern shore of the Bay of Danzig to the east, north of Braunsberg – Goldep, to the meeting point of the frontiers of Lithuania, the Polish Republic and East Prussia.
The Conference has agreed in principle to the proposal of the Soviet Government concerning the ultimate transfer to the Soviet Union of the city of Koenigsberg and the area adjacent to it as described above, subject to expert examination of the actual frontier.
The President of the United States and the British Prime Minister have declared that they will support the proposal of the Conference at the forthcoming peace settlement.[23]
-- 206.176.146.31 ( talk) 02:43, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
Um @ Laurel Lodged:@ 204.197.178.96: - I'm not sure that was exactly what was being meant. But in looking closer the whole paragraph appears to be out of place in a section about a completely different time period. The whole Posdam annexation and aftermath is I believe accurately and appropriately covered in a later section within the article and I think we simply delete this additional random mention of the annexation. Andrewgprout ( talk) 05:58, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
The annexation of the territory, while supposedly on a temporary basis, was approved by the "Big Three" allied leaders of World War II in the Potsdam Agreement in 1945. Three years after the annexation by the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, the remaining two-thirds of East Prussia was annexed by Poland and is today organised into the Warmian-Masurian province.
If there is no objection, I will delete this part. -- 208.72.125.2 ( talk) 17:06, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
The other 84 federal subjects are contiguous with the Russian mainland. I think this might be worth mentioning in the article.
-- 208.72.125.2 ( talk) 16:25, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
You need permission to fly over. The seas are free to all. Important. 213.205.240.177 ( talk) 15:58, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Suppose it is grouped into Leningrad oblast due to its proximity to St. Petersburg, it would be contiguous with Moscow.
-- 208.72.125.2 ( talk) 17:08, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
No explanation here as to exactly why the place was seized by the Russians in the first place. This is the historic heart of Prussia, and Konigsberg was the old Prussian capital, before being moved to Berlin. The point of seizing it was part of the post-war aim of eliminating Prussia’s existence, as the bearers of an aggressive, war-like tradition. The old capital and part of old, or East Prussia was occupied to this end. With Stalin’s typical heavy-handed moving of people around like concrete blocks, the whole population was simply expelled, and replaced with Russians. The article should mention some of this. 213.205.240.177 ( talk) 16:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Kalininia. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 26#Kalininia until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 21:02, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Compare the photo to others online. Look at the spire in particular. The present image is substantially vertically stretched.
I reverted the recent addition with this edit: this diff; my rationale was: "Revert -- this is sourced to a memoir; a book from an extremist publisher; and an article that does not support the claim". For more information please see a discussion on my Talk page: Edit at Königsberg. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 17:29, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
This article ignores 30 years of problems of the transit. [3] Xx236 ( talk) 06:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
References
Is this Wikipedia Russian? Xx236 ( talk) 08:32, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
The location maps are not acceptable. They do not reflect a WP:neutral point of view. They do not show all states and disputed and occupied territories. They privilege and legitimize the Russian occupation of part of Ukraine by colouring it yellow or green, as if it were part of the Russian Federation. This is a Kremlin POV, showing its claimed annexation, and not all disputed territories neutrally.
Since Crimea actually belongs to another state, it should remain the same grey colour as other states. There is also a maritime boundary incorrectly shown between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine, and one omitted between Crimea and Russia in the Kerch Strait. If (all) disputed and occupied territories are indicated, then they should remain grey with stripes. That includes parts of Moldova, Georgia, and Ukraine, including parts of the Donbas that have been occupied long term. A location map should probably not show the fluid war occupation of 2022.
What do reliable sources do with maps? Britannica doesn’t do this. [4] [5] — Michael Z. 13:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Xx236 has a long pattern [7] of getting into fights and stepping out of civility with comments, especially on Russo-Ukrainian War related topics, and failing to distinguish between "standing up for what is right" (which is a noble cause to be sure) and "editing a wiki encyclopedia". We are here to report sourced information as-is, not to cleanse Wikipedia of any Russian claims (if Russian claims are part of the actual encyclopedic content then it's clearly labeled as "Russian claims" in some form, with appropriate other sourced content to dispute Russian claims if necessary).
The map shows Kaliningrad Oblast as a section of Russian territory. Being an exclave does not change the fact that it is a "section" (furthermore, it's just an oblast and not some special self-governing unit like Åland). The Russian map shows a disputed Republic of Crimea because Russia claims it under Russia law (however flimsily that law may have been enacted). Even though most of the international community does not recognize that claim, this article is talking about a Russian territory. 104.175.74.27 ( talk) 16:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Please correct the line that Kaliningrad Oblast became part of the Czech Republic in 2022. There was a satirical posting ( https://www.praguemorning.cz/czechs-troll-russia-with-mock-annexation-of-kaliningrad/) and it was added as a fact to this article. This can be verified in numerous sources. 76.119.248.216 ( talk) 21:54, 2 December 2022 (UTC)