This disambiguation page is within the scope of WikiProject Disambiguation, an attempt to structure and organize all
disambiguation pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, you can edit the page attached to this talk page, or visit the
project page, where you can join the project or contribute to the
discussion.DisambiguationWikipedia:WikiProject DisambiguationTemplate:WikiProject DisambiguationDisambiguation articles
closing help request user requested an RfC --
Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ (
talk)
21:05, 12 September 2016 (UTC) - I moved a comic book character named Kaine to
Kaine (comic book character) because it did not seem to me that it was the obvious primary. However, 1. kaine continute to direct to the comic book character, and 2. I have failed to write a proper hatnote on the comic book character's page directing readers to this Kaine disambig page.reply
I also wish to start a discussion here on whether Senator
Tim Kaine should be the primary Kaine, but am reluctant to do out of fear that I will mess something else up. with apologies to the ept user who I hope will rescue me here.
E.M.Gregory (
talk)
17:00, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Request for comment
In a nutshell, we have a rough consensus to leave as a disambiguation page. While there are interesting arguments that we should direct to the political candidate, policy doesn't require us to, and instead allows us to use our best collective judgement in each situation, as long as that judgement is not a policy violation. In this situation, there is adequate leeway in policy and consensus is clear enough. Perhaps that will change in time, or perhaps not, but for now, the community has spoken.
Dennis Brown -
2¢22:24, 24 October 2016 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Make
Tim Kaine the primary topic for
Kaine. At this time, the VP nominee is clearly the more likely search candidate. To check myself, I googled "Kaine"; the first three pages were all Tim Kaine, except for a link to a metal band named "Kaine" on page 3.--Mojo Hand(
talk)21:21, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Clarify support - I continue to support "Kaine" redirecting to Time Kaine; my second choice is "Kaine" redirecting to the disambiguation page. Current status of redirect to the minor comic book character is the worst option, in my opinion.--Mojo Hand(
talk)13:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Kaine should remain as Disambiguation page as of now. If Kaine loses, I doubt that people would care to search for him in the future. For example,
Palin is a disambiguation page, and not a redirect to 2008 Running Mate
Sarah Palin.
Yoshiman6464 (
talk)
11:43, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Support Should lead to Tim Kaine, who is now more notable and most importantly the article most readers are looking for. Of course that could all change after the election or after 4 or 8 years in which case we can revisit the issue.
TFD (
talk)
21:53, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Defer decision until after the election - we're writing an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. No one would argue that
Ryan should redirect to
Paul Ryan or that
Cox should redirect to
James M. Cox, a previous vice presidential and presidential candidate, respectively. Promoting the most-important-topic-of-the-week to the prime spot without regard for lasting significance is
WP:Recentism.
Huon (
talk)
22:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Disambig or Surname. Primary topic is definitely not the rather obscure comic-book character. Either a disambig or a redirect to Tim Kaine would be OK with me.
Neutralitytalk22:16, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment: I think it's clear that the comic book character is not the primary topic IMO. But I am not sure directing it to a person who has the last name is the best option. Is there anything wrong with it being the disambiguation page title?
Jhenderson77702:18, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
comment Nothing "worng" with it, but this is a matter of editorial choice, not a hard and fast rule.
Biden directs to Joe Biden, with a hatnote on
Joe Biden leading to
Biden (disambiguation). Presidents with relatively unique names (Nixon, Eisenhower) seem to follow the Biden pattern. Presidents sharing a surname with other famous people (Roosevelt, Johnson) either follow the
Clinton pattern directing to a surname article, or the
Kennedy pattern of directing to a disambig article on all thinks called "Kennedy". Note , however, that this question applies far more widely than just to Presidents.
Hemingway leads directly directs to
Ernest Hemingway, with a hatnote to the disambig page, but
Milton leads to the disambig page, not to
John Milton. I thought at first that it might be because there are some towns named Milton, (but it's not that simple, because
Hemingway, South Carolina). Summing up the question that appears to make
Chagall,
Cagney,
Freud,
Travolta,
Biden,
Wordsworth,
Thoreau,
Goldwater,
Mondale,
Abzug direct to the most notable of the notable people of that name, Whereas
Milton,
Pavlov,
Trump,
Romney,
Dukakis and
Clinton go to disambig pages (
Pence takes you to
Penny,) is a judgment on the part of Wikipedia editors based not on a hard and fast rule, but on our judgment of how well-known the personage is and how notable the other people/things sharing the name are.
Biden is probably the closest case, quite a well-known politician, but, as with Kaine, others of this name are few and not nearly as notable.
E.M.Gregory (
talk)
11:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Disambig or Surname - Kaine should direct to either a disambiguation page, or to a page describing the surname. Neither the comic book character nor the vice-presidential candidate are primary; the latter particularly not so for international (non-US) readers. -
Ryk72'c.s.n.s.'05:13, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment - Summoned by bot. Support Kaine redirect to
Tim Kaine for the time being. Not only is Tim Kaine the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but the overwhelming majority of readers searching "Kaine" are wanting to read about the VP nominee. This can be changed after the election if need be.
Meatsgains (
talk)
14:50, 14 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Disambig – Acknowledging Tim Kaine's recent popularity due to presidential campaign, however noting that his name is a
partial title match so by policy should not even be included in the disambig page… (like
John Kerry is not mentioned on the
Kerry dab page). In terms of
WP:PTOPIC guidelines, the politician matches the "most wanted" criterion but that's only
WP:RECENTism; the comics character still dominates according to the long-term significance criterion. Therefore there is no primary topic for the term "Kaine". —
JFGtalk09:15, 15 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Disambig – As FoCuS said there are about 12 articles, in such a case the primary topic has nothing to do with, and primary may change with time. Anyway the primary topic is not so well-known. For instance, let us consider
Obama, in this case too the disambiguation page has more than about 10 pages, but Obama was redirected to
Barack Obama directly, because he is a very well known figure and most of the searches are intended for him. Such are not the conditions here, for example, I myself don't know about the comic character. You need not consider my opinion, but searches are not so concentrated to the comic book character. Regards,
Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (
talk •
mail)
07:59, 2 October 2016 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Requested move 13 October 2016
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
– Per the RFC above, there is no primary topic for this dab page, therefore the dab page should reside at
Kaine, and
Kaine (disambiguation) should be a redirect to it. (This is according to
WP:MULTIDABS: "where no topic is primary, the disambiguation page is placed at the base name.")
The article on the comic-book character (currently at
Kaine) was once named Kaine (comic book character) but, according to established
naming conventions, the title disambiguator should be (comics), so the article for the character should be
Kaine (comics). —
Gorthian (
talk)
02:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)reply
Support: Reasons mentioned above. I think it would be be better to have
Kaine Parker as a redirect, because "Kaine" is his most widespread name and Wiki readers searching for information on Marvel's Kaine might not realise that that is who Kaine Parker is. Similar to how we have
Elektra (comics) over
Elektra Natchios. DarkKnight214902:44, 13 October 2016 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
This disambiguation page is within the scope of WikiProject Disambiguation, an attempt to structure and organize all
disambiguation pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, you can edit the page attached to this talk page, or visit the
project page, where you can join the project or contribute to the
discussion.DisambiguationWikipedia:WikiProject DisambiguationTemplate:WikiProject DisambiguationDisambiguation articles
closing help request user requested an RfC --
Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ (
talk)
21:05, 12 September 2016 (UTC) - I moved a comic book character named Kaine to
Kaine (comic book character) because it did not seem to me that it was the obvious primary. However, 1. kaine continute to direct to the comic book character, and 2. I have failed to write a proper hatnote on the comic book character's page directing readers to this Kaine disambig page.reply
I also wish to start a discussion here on whether Senator
Tim Kaine should be the primary Kaine, but am reluctant to do out of fear that I will mess something else up. with apologies to the ept user who I hope will rescue me here.
E.M.Gregory (
talk)
17:00, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Request for comment
In a nutshell, we have a rough consensus to leave as a disambiguation page. While there are interesting arguments that we should direct to the political candidate, policy doesn't require us to, and instead allows us to use our best collective judgement in each situation, as long as that judgement is not a policy violation. In this situation, there is adequate leeway in policy and consensus is clear enough. Perhaps that will change in time, or perhaps not, but for now, the community has spoken.
Dennis Brown -
2¢22:24, 24 October 2016 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Make
Tim Kaine the primary topic for
Kaine. At this time, the VP nominee is clearly the more likely search candidate. To check myself, I googled "Kaine"; the first three pages were all Tim Kaine, except for a link to a metal band named "Kaine" on page 3.--Mojo Hand(
talk)21:21, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Clarify support - I continue to support "Kaine" redirecting to Time Kaine; my second choice is "Kaine" redirecting to the disambiguation page. Current status of redirect to the minor comic book character is the worst option, in my opinion.--Mojo Hand(
talk)13:28, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Kaine should remain as Disambiguation page as of now. If Kaine loses, I doubt that people would care to search for him in the future. For example,
Palin is a disambiguation page, and not a redirect to 2008 Running Mate
Sarah Palin.
Yoshiman6464 (
talk)
11:43, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Support Should lead to Tim Kaine, who is now more notable and most importantly the article most readers are looking for. Of course that could all change after the election or after 4 or 8 years in which case we can revisit the issue.
TFD (
talk)
21:53, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Defer decision until after the election - we're writing an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. No one would argue that
Ryan should redirect to
Paul Ryan or that
Cox should redirect to
James M. Cox, a previous vice presidential and presidential candidate, respectively. Promoting the most-important-topic-of-the-week to the prime spot without regard for lasting significance is
WP:Recentism.
Huon (
talk)
22:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Disambig or Surname. Primary topic is definitely not the rather obscure comic-book character. Either a disambig or a redirect to Tim Kaine would be OK with me.
Neutralitytalk22:16, 12 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment: I think it's clear that the comic book character is not the primary topic IMO. But I am not sure directing it to a person who has the last name is the best option. Is there anything wrong with it being the disambiguation page title?
Jhenderson77702:18, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
comment Nothing "worng" with it, but this is a matter of editorial choice, not a hard and fast rule.
Biden directs to Joe Biden, with a hatnote on
Joe Biden leading to
Biden (disambiguation). Presidents with relatively unique names (Nixon, Eisenhower) seem to follow the Biden pattern. Presidents sharing a surname with other famous people (Roosevelt, Johnson) either follow the
Clinton pattern directing to a surname article, or the
Kennedy pattern of directing to a disambig article on all thinks called "Kennedy". Note , however, that this question applies far more widely than just to Presidents.
Hemingway leads directly directs to
Ernest Hemingway, with a hatnote to the disambig page, but
Milton leads to the disambig page, not to
John Milton. I thought at first that it might be because there are some towns named Milton, (but it's not that simple, because
Hemingway, South Carolina). Summing up the question that appears to make
Chagall,
Cagney,
Freud,
Travolta,
Biden,
Wordsworth,
Thoreau,
Goldwater,
Mondale,
Abzug direct to the most notable of the notable people of that name, Whereas
Milton,
Pavlov,
Trump,
Romney,
Dukakis and
Clinton go to disambig pages (
Pence takes you to
Penny,) is a judgment on the part of Wikipedia editors based not on a hard and fast rule, but on our judgment of how well-known the personage is and how notable the other people/things sharing the name are.
Biden is probably the closest case, quite a well-known politician, but, as with Kaine, others of this name are few and not nearly as notable.
E.M.Gregory (
talk)
11:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Disambig or Surname - Kaine should direct to either a disambiguation page, or to a page describing the surname. Neither the comic book character nor the vice-presidential candidate are primary; the latter particularly not so for international (non-US) readers. -
Ryk72'c.s.n.s.'05:13, 13 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment - Summoned by bot. Support Kaine redirect to
Tim Kaine for the time being. Not only is Tim Kaine the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but the overwhelming majority of readers searching "Kaine" are wanting to read about the VP nominee. This can be changed after the election if need be.
Meatsgains (
talk)
14:50, 14 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Disambig – Acknowledging Tim Kaine's recent popularity due to presidential campaign, however noting that his name is a
partial title match so by policy should not even be included in the disambig page… (like
John Kerry is not mentioned on the
Kerry dab page). In terms of
WP:PTOPIC guidelines, the politician matches the "most wanted" criterion but that's only
WP:RECENTism; the comics character still dominates according to the long-term significance criterion. Therefore there is no primary topic for the term "Kaine". —
JFGtalk09:15, 15 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Disambig – As FoCuS said there are about 12 articles, in such a case the primary topic has nothing to do with, and primary may change with time. Anyway the primary topic is not so well-known. For instance, let us consider
Obama, in this case too the disambiguation page has more than about 10 pages, but Obama was redirected to
Barack Obama directly, because he is a very well known figure and most of the searches are intended for him. Such are not the conditions here, for example, I myself don't know about the comic character. You need not consider my opinion, but searches are not so concentrated to the comic book character. Regards,
Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (
talk •
mail)
07:59, 2 October 2016 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Requested move 13 October 2016
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
– Per the RFC above, there is no primary topic for this dab page, therefore the dab page should reside at
Kaine, and
Kaine (disambiguation) should be a redirect to it. (This is according to
WP:MULTIDABS: "where no topic is primary, the disambiguation page is placed at the base name.")
The article on the comic-book character (currently at
Kaine) was once named Kaine (comic book character) but, according to established
naming conventions, the title disambiguator should be (comics), so the article for the character should be
Kaine (comics). —
Gorthian (
talk)
02:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)reply
Support: Reasons mentioned above. I think it would be be better to have
Kaine Parker as a redirect, because "Kaine" is his most widespread name and Wiki readers searching for information on Marvel's Kaine might not realise that that is who Kaine Parker is. Similar to how we have
Elektra (comics) over
Elektra Natchios. DarkKnight214902:44, 13 October 2016 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.