A fact from Kafr Misr appeared on Wikipedia's
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The lead states "The current inhabitants of Kafr Misr include those who have lived there for hundreds, even thousands of years, while others...". This is cited to the Bustan al-Marj Regional Council website. This is an extraordinary claim, and requires serious sources, not the history page written by the regional council. Basically, the only way to prove this would be perform genetic tests on current inhabitants and on skeletons from thousands of years ago. I see no sources in that Council history page.
Unless a serious RS can be provided for this very strong claim, it needs to be removed. Just attributing it to the council won't do - if anyone want to read their claims, they have a website. We should not be repeating questionable claims. okedem ( talk) 08:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
By the way, the one source I've been able to find so far states that the village was founded by Egyptian immigrants in the 19th century, hence the name. okedem ( talk) 09:09, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
The http://www.bustanelmarg.muni.il/, under "Kufur Masser", or "Kafr Misr", states that "In historical maps from 1799, the village was called "Mavela" which means beauty."
Well, I assume they refer to the Pierre Jacotin, 1826-map. But doesn´t that map call the place for "Mebhel"? Or am I looking at the wrong place?? Huldra ( talk) 15:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Coming back to this question, the paper of Karmon on the Jacotin map (1799) agrees that it is marked there as "Mebhel". I presume that "Mavela" is just the result of moving "Mebhel" into Arabic and back, and I'm not sure that the web page is very reliable. Meanwhile, I found that Hutteroth lists it as a 1596 locality Misrasafa (z42 on p190). This is confirmed by Grootkerk's Gazetteer (p305) which also lists Kafr Misr as an Ottoman name of the 16th century. Grootkerk says that he based his Ottoman column on Hutteroth, a PhD thesis of Rhode, and "maps of the Israel Atlas (1956-1964)". If the name "Misr" was attached prior to the modern period, it casts doubt on the story of its modern adoption. There is also the opposite possibility: the modern name may have misled people trying to identify old names. A puzzle indeed. Zero talk 04:16, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
There are or were several "Kafr Misr" in Israel/Palestine, as several sites were resettled by Egyptians (Morris p. 17).
I was confused by what Wiki presents as the Palestine section of the Jacotin map ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Jacotin%27s_1799_survey%2C_extract_showing_Palestine.png), which doesn't show any Mebhel in the area. That tallies well with Karmon p. 247, where he lists Misr among the villages omitted from the map by Jacotin. Without solving this dilemma, I'm just guessing that Jacotin did a survey, which was used to create more than one map, of which not all contain Mabhel. Maybe.
The regional council website is such a substandard non-source that it cannot be used at all. As of now, several claims are based only on it:
None of this can be left standing unless there are reliable sources found which say the same. Arminden ( talk) 20:33, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Kama is possibly the indirect explanation. Read the history section. The Circassians were settled by the authorities in 1878, and it was only them in the village in 1187. The previous population and village name were either intentionally discontinued, or the people had left before 1878. The khirbet phenomenon so well known, which I've mentioned again and again, here possibly helped by a push from above. Both could have happened at Misr too. Different clans, let alone etnic groups, mixing in one village seems to have hardly been happening in the 19th c. I just read about a region in Transylvania where the local count brought in Swabians from Germany and in several cases emptied some villages of Romanians to make place for them. 18th and 19th c. Not uncommon at all. Arminden ( talk) 14:41, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
A fact from Kafr Misr appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 January 2010 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
The lead states "The current inhabitants of Kafr Misr include those who have lived there for hundreds, even thousands of years, while others...". This is cited to the Bustan al-Marj Regional Council website. This is an extraordinary claim, and requires serious sources, not the history page written by the regional council. Basically, the only way to prove this would be perform genetic tests on current inhabitants and on skeletons from thousands of years ago. I see no sources in that Council history page.
Unless a serious RS can be provided for this very strong claim, it needs to be removed. Just attributing it to the council won't do - if anyone want to read their claims, they have a website. We should not be repeating questionable claims. okedem ( talk) 08:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
By the way, the one source I've been able to find so far states that the village was founded by Egyptian immigrants in the 19th century, hence the name. okedem ( talk) 09:09, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
The http://www.bustanelmarg.muni.il/, under "Kufur Masser", or "Kafr Misr", states that "In historical maps from 1799, the village was called "Mavela" which means beauty."
Well, I assume they refer to the Pierre Jacotin, 1826-map. But doesn´t that map call the place for "Mebhel"? Or am I looking at the wrong place?? Huldra ( talk) 15:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Coming back to this question, the paper of Karmon on the Jacotin map (1799) agrees that it is marked there as "Mebhel". I presume that "Mavela" is just the result of moving "Mebhel" into Arabic and back, and I'm not sure that the web page is very reliable. Meanwhile, I found that Hutteroth lists it as a 1596 locality Misrasafa (z42 on p190). This is confirmed by Grootkerk's Gazetteer (p305) which also lists Kafr Misr as an Ottoman name of the 16th century. Grootkerk says that he based his Ottoman column on Hutteroth, a PhD thesis of Rhode, and "maps of the Israel Atlas (1956-1964)". If the name "Misr" was attached prior to the modern period, it casts doubt on the story of its modern adoption. There is also the opposite possibility: the modern name may have misled people trying to identify old names. A puzzle indeed. Zero talk 04:16, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
There are or were several "Kafr Misr" in Israel/Palestine, as several sites were resettled by Egyptians (Morris p. 17).
I was confused by what Wiki presents as the Palestine section of the Jacotin map ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Jacotin%27s_1799_survey%2C_extract_showing_Palestine.png), which doesn't show any Mebhel in the area. That tallies well with Karmon p. 247, where he lists Misr among the villages omitted from the map by Jacotin. Without solving this dilemma, I'm just guessing that Jacotin did a survey, which was used to create more than one map, of which not all contain Mabhel. Maybe.
The regional council website is such a substandard non-source that it cannot be used at all. As of now, several claims are based only on it:
None of this can be left standing unless there are reliable sources found which say the same. Arminden ( talk) 20:33, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Kama is possibly the indirect explanation. Read the history section. The Circassians were settled by the authorities in 1878, and it was only them in the village in 1187. The previous population and village name were either intentionally discontinued, or the people had left before 1878. The khirbet phenomenon so well known, which I've mentioned again and again, here possibly helped by a push from above. Both could have happened at Misr too. Different clans, let alone etnic groups, mixing in one village seems to have hardly been happening in the 19th c. I just read about a region in Transylvania where the local count brought in Swabians from Germany and in several cases emptied some villages of Romanians to make place for them. 18th and 19th c. Not uncommon at all. Arminden ( talk) 14:41, 21 June 2021 (UTC)