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The article says Hindus and Buddhists are Kaffirs. In real life Muslims have a lot in Common infact many many words from Arabic are related to sanskrit. Also, Prophet Muhammad is a God in Vedic View. he is the God of The World. so my revision is most accurate.
also its discrimination to put other religons as Kaffirs as well. A KAFFIR IS A PERSON WHO DOESNT WANT TO FOLLOW ISLAM . it can reffer to Christian, Jews, Hindu, Buddhist whatever religon but Prophet Muhammad is a God in Vedism so its wrong to put target kaffirs.
that leads to conflicts betweeen communities. who were forced to embrace Islam due to Jihads controlling areas. please stop targeting other religons as kaffirs it is discrimination.
I suspect alibadawi and Garywbush are indeed the same person. Please check user:alibadawi's talk history
Why would Garywbush say sorry for the thing that he didn't do? It was alibadawi that violated 3R rule and he should say sorry instead. But no, it was Gary. And Garywbush's action to undo his edit there makes the case against him stronger. __earth 10:16, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
Slander as we know it as against Wikipedia policy and Earth did not even email me when my email address is clearly on my User Page. He just began slandering me that I was related to User:Alibadawi, who he claimed was my socketpuppet. I am sure slander is against Wikipedia policy and I want to know the process to bring this up to the appropriate Wikipedia authorities. Garywbush 01:31, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
why is this talkpage used as a forum for sockpuppet allegations and related accusations? go to WP:RFC, WIkipedia:Dispute resolution. dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
as far as i'm aware, it is on RFC somewhere but that's such an unorganised mess that its impossible to find the relevant comments Robdurbar 10:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The definition in the article currently strikes me as a bit, em, weird. The word kafir is almost always used in Arabic to refer to a non-believer, not to "someone who hides the truth". That may be its original meaning, or its etymological origin, but neither of those are what we should give as its actual current meaning. Also, the next paragraph reads very like a cut-and-paste from some website (islamonline.net) which I can't access (presumably because they're nasty loonies).
I propose changing the definition to reflect the real meaning, and I woudl suggest that a good, NPOV and sourced way of doing this would be to use the translations given by Arabic-English dictionaries. We could try Hans Wehr and al-Mawrid. Palmiro | Talk 23:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Elias' pocket dictionary translates kafr as to cover, hide. The al-majani pocket dictionary translates the root 'kfr' as to deny God To be or become an unbeliever, and none of the derived words listed have the meaning of cover or hide. It looks like there is a good deal of ambiguity. The Infidel 19:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Jorge said below that
"Infidel is only used when translating Muslims text and speeches, presumably always for the word "kafir", and it is understood by English readers to mean basically "non-Muslim". The word "infidel" is not used by Christians to refer to anyone, precisely because in English it means "non-Muslim", not "non-Christian". Christians use "pagan", "heathen", "non-Christian', "non-believer", "apostate", depending on the case."
That is absolutely not true. Infidel has used both in Christianity and Islam. Even if it's synonymous with heathen, pagan, or gentile in Christianity which would refer to a non-believer, infidel has often been used with christianity both in its Latin īnfidēlis which means not-faithful and even in United States english uptil today. One example is where Lincoln said "It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it are among its worst and least pleasant examples. It will not do to investigate the subject of religion too closely, as it is apt to lead to infidelity." It is commonly used by extremist christians too. -- a.n.o.n.y.m t 14:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to Kafir, though I'm not happy with this. — Nightst a llion (?) 11:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Kafir (Islam) →
infidel – As discussed above, the article's title "kafir", with this sense, is an Arabic word that has not been assimilated into English, and which has a standard translation, "infidel". Namely, when translating an Arabic text that uses the word "kafir" into English, that word is noramlly translated as "infidel", not left as "kafir". The word "infidel" is not used for any other purpose (except for some archaic uses that are too old to be relevant to article naming issues). Per Wikipedia rules, the article should be renamed to the English word.
On the other hand, the word "kafir" is used in English but with other senses: (1) as an alternate spelling (not misspelling) of "Kaffir", used e.g. in "Kafir Wars", "kafir corn", etc; (2) as "Kafir", the name of the "Nuri" peoples of Nuristan before their forced Islamization at the end of the 19th century (see
Hindukush Kafir people and
Kafiristan). These other senses of "kafir" in English are additional reasons to use another name for "kafir (Islam)".
Jorge Stolfi
09:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
This is bullshit. We need to vote to return the page to its original address but we didn't have to when it was moved here. __earth ( Talk) 03:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
On the name Infidel: Should kamikaze be moved to suicide attack? No. __earth ( Talk) 11:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
On the name Infidel: Kafir is used by a reasonable number of English-speakers to have its own article. We don't redirect Allah to God or Cinco de Mayo to May 5. joturner 11:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
On the name Infidel: WHO IS TRYING TO COVER THE TRUTH? or: where has my Oppose gone? Is this a kind of Florida election or what? The Infidel 22:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The word "kafir" seems to be a common variant (not misspelling!) of "kaffir", which has many important senses not related to kafir (Islam). It is not clear that the latter sense is so much more important that it deserves to be made the default sense. Jorge Stolfi 05:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC) PS. Besides, it is an unassimilated Arabic word that has an English translation, so the title is inappropriate anyway. Jorge Stolfi 08:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Not only is this "vote" horribly mangled and difficult to follow (although, thankfully, it isn't full of ----s... but the proposal itself is a really bad idea... While everyone has one conception of what "infidel" means when used to translate kafir, the word "infidel" has a very different meaning in English in contexts free from the taint of Islamoengineered discussion. If the article is moved it should be moved to Infidel (Islam), not to Infidel. Tom e r talk 01:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems that the problem here is the "Geocities syndrome", something that I have seen happening in many other places through Wikipedia. Namely, one or more people who are interested in something start writing an article on it, directed only to those readers who are concerned with the subject. That is, an article that reads like a typical thematic site on the internet — as if Wikipedia was the latest reincarnation of Geocities. Please, folks, let's not forget that every Wikipedia article should be written for the random wikipedia reader who, has a rule, knows very little of the subject and has no long-term interest on it.
Not just the old name, but also the contents of the "kafir (Islam)" article seem to suffer from that problem. The article reads as if it was directed to a relatively small subset of the readers (even among Muslim readers) who are already familiar with the term. It focuses on fine "insider" disputes, with plenty of "proof by citation of authority" arguments (which are not appropriate for a Wikipedia article), while omitting even the most basic facts that a non-Muslim reader from Greenland or Tahiti would want to know. (By the way, this was the most common problem of the many articles I cleaned up over the past month, including a dozen articles about various senses of kafir/kaffir, articles on a dozen creole/kriol/kreyol/kriolu languages, on Portuguese-related topics, and a handful more.)
As I see it, this controversy about the move "kafir" -> "kafir (Islam)" is just another facet of that same problem. In the comments above, there does not seen to be much concern about the convenience of benefit for the general readers, especially those who are not interested in "kafir (Islam)" but in other senses of kafir. Rather, it seems that those editors who have this page on their watchlist (perhaps less than a dozen?) oppose the move because it would be (slightly) inconvenient to them.
Although English is not my native language, for the last 30 years (including the 13 years I lived in the US) I have been reading more English than all other languages combined. And I have read a lot of stuff, including a fair amount of material about Islam, with many translated quotes from Muslims of all epochs and stations. I have seen many foreign words like kamikaze and Cinco de Mayo used in ordinary Enlish texts, thousands of times. I have seen uncountably many times Allah, Caliph, Imam, Ramadan, sharia, fatwa, jihad, sura, bismillah, and somehow I even got to memorize alf laila wa-laila. Now, I may have been extraordinarily unlucky, but I do not recall ever seeing the word "kafir" used in English for the sense of "infidel" — which, on the other hand, must be almost as frequent as "Allah".
If I recall correctly, I got to the "kafir"/"kaffir" pages, a couple of weeks ago, through an article which originally said something like "baila is popular among the Kaffir, descendant of the Kaffir slaves who were brought ro Sri Lanka by the Portuguese. These kaffrinha ...". Namely, a typical "Geocities-style" article. It took me several hours of searching and reading to make some sense out of the several articles on the various senses of kafir. The few pointers between those pages were often misleading, e.g. by assuming that the Kafir of Kafiristan was a sub-sense of kafir=infidel. In fact, it took me some time to realize that the "kafir" article was actually about "infidel", since the head paragraph said that "infidel" was an incorrect translation of the term (which it is not).
The move kafir -> kafir (Islam) was only a small part of the cleanup that I did of all those kafir/kaffir articles. It was several days of collecting the information, moving it to the proper pages, removing duplication, sorting, fixing layout, prose, markup, links, disambiguation, and of course writing the "kaffir (disambiguation)" page. Of course I got no "thanks" for all that work, only complaints about an innocuous (actually, quite helpful and appropriate, I would say) name change, by a small set of editors who apparently believe their "kafir" to be so much more important than other people's "kafir"s that it should be the default sense. But I am used to wikipedia, and that doesn't hurt any more. Not too much, I mean.
Well, I think that I have already wasted far too much time, mine and especially other people's, on this nit. As the Elders say, there are a million other articles out there where I could waste time in more positive and agreeable ways.
So long, and all the best.
Jorge Stolfi
14:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
In the now locked discussion section Jorge Stolfi asks me:
Quote: "PS. Which posting did I delete???? Jorge Stolfi 00:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)"
Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Kafir&diff=prev&oldid=37738408
The Infidel
21:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
As per user Heraclius request, I included a source but that is not all I would like to point out to him that the neologism kaafirphobia gets 21 hits in a search using Google. Colin chee 18:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
This is just a note that SOMEONE has been asking people from mychristiannetwork.com to keep the kafirphobia information. This is complete B.S., and whomever decided to lobby thir biased friends to do this needs to reflect on their behavior.-- Dr.Worm 20:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
ok, I agree that this is a borderline case of notability. Note, however, that we are talking of notability, not OR. Wikipedia covers a lot of obscure internet phenomena, and while I would be opposed to an entire "Kaafirophobia" article, on grounds on notability, a brief mention here, imho, does not hurt, as long as the term is put in proper perspectice. I am an "inclusionist qua redirection" I suppose. Not that I'd edit-war over something like this, but I really don't see why the term needs to be suppressed, seeing that this article is still very short and badly in need of more material. That's just my opinion, of course, and I'll gracefully yield to community consensus :) dab (ᛏ) 09:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Alibadawi, you are quoting www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Kaafirphobia nationmaster (which is a mirror of Wikipedia) and Colin Chee's company page as sources. And to mention it again, even Google search doesn't give anything credible academic source. __earth 04:46, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
it's very simple: a geocities page is not a reference. their definition is simpl parroting the Runnymede Trust definition of Islamophobia. If the term gains some currency in the media, we can point to the geocities page as an early source. As long as Colin Chee is the only one touting the term, it has no place on Wikipedia. dab (ᛏ) 10:03, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
btw, I found this quite funny :) dab (ᛏ) 10:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
As already argued, "Kaafirophobia" and "Kafirophobia" are definitely neologisms. I went ahead and looked through fourteen English dictionaries, two Deutsch, one Arabic, and a few etymological texts just for fun . The words do not exist outside of a few people using them as part of their personal idiolects.
The OED is considered *the* authority for words in the English language. The closest match is Kaffir. Thus:
From the Oxford English Dictionary, second edition (1989) - online version (and therefore the one most frequently updated with new words that have something resembling common usage) P.MacUidhir 18:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Why on earth is this article part of Islamism? Faro0485 ( talk) 09:41, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
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WP:NOT a place for advocacy, and we are not a location which should be calling any religion the "true faith." Therefore, this wording is POV. The word is a derogatory term for non-muslims, and that is how it should be described. Queeran 14:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I understand that there can be dissent weather the slaves sold by muslim arabs to christan portugues have been captured ("taken prisoner") during war or just in raids for the purpose of gaining "merchandise". But I cannot figure out any decent reason why in the see also section Nastik - Mleccha - Goyim - Gentile are frequently deleted.
Why should Nastik - Mleccha - Goyim - Gentile be considered "irrelevant" but heathen or pagan not? Let the reader decide what's irrelevant. The Infidel 21:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
On the discussion page of the articel
Infidel (
Talk:Infidel) I cannot find anything about links in the "see also" section, and nothing whatsoever that looks even faintly like a consensus. So what exactely are you, Mike18xx, talking about?
Further, the interest of knowing about a word representing an idea does not depend on the fact if it is still used in everyday language or if it has faded out of mind and usage. The "see also" section may refer to anything that is related, whether by analogy, by historical precedence, by gradual difference or by anything that is considered related by the readers.
What does more harm: to leave a link that is considered "irrelevant" by some, but not by all, or to have a link that is considered "irrelevant" by some, but not by all.
Still, I cannot figure out any decent reason why those links (except, perhaps and out of insufficiency, red links) should be hidden from the readers.
The Infidel
22:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Due to recent edits of the introductory sentence, I wanted to make a few points:
It is imperative that this article, as a Wikipedia source, does not become a playground for promoting ideological POVs in lieu of scholarly and sources materials. Ramallite (talk) 19:05, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like to note that it is silly to have a section "According to scholars". What is the rest of the article? According to random Wikipedians? Clearly, the main question is about delineating kafir and "people of the book" (do the terms overlap?). Since the term has essentially become a slur, its application will depend on the speaker's mindset, i.e. does he want to display hostility or to imply that really everyone should be a Muslim, or does he want to emphasize commonalities. The important thing about the word is that it is derogatory. dab (ᛏ) 20:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
While I have not read as extensively on the subject, I can say that from my own (limited) reading that such opinions are not shared by all Muslims. According to WP's Hanbali article, 'the Hanbali school is followed by less than 5%of the world's Muslim population. It is presently the school of jurisprudence used in modern day Saudi Arabia.' (my emphasis). Like any debate, there are multiple opinions. There are regularly-held Christian-Muslim lectures or panels in Palestine by clergy from both religions who discuss the many similarities in the two faiths, including obeying of God, and bring up verses to support their arguments. There are articles on the internet in Arabic by some Saudi or Egyptian Islamic scholars (as well as people like Friedmann and others) who bring up a separate set of quotations to support the argument that the People of the Book are anything from merely misled to actual kufaar. These all constitute multiple POVs, and depending on where one stands on the religious spectrum, one will always choose those verses that suit the argument or ideology that one is trying to make. To take another example, if you follow the Old Testament, American football players would be put to death for touching the skin of an unclean animal (pig skin which the football is partially made out of), according to some interpretations. Leviticus, for another example, prohibits removal of hair from certain areas of a man's temple (if I understand correctly), so certain haircuts would also be punishable according to certain interpretations. In Islam, there is a low-key debate among few (not many) about whether the Koran itself actually commands all women to cover their faces or if that only actually applied to the wives of the prophet Mohammad. So again, these are all multiple POVs inherent to any attempt to interpret religious text to suit one's own bent. This all ought to be taken into account (but not necessarily mentioned) in the introduction of an article as deep and multifaceted as this one. Ramallite (talk) 20:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually these are not 'parallels' at all, and as such cannot serve any rhetorical purpose. These are simply examples to (hopefully) illustrate that, when it comes to such topics, there is a wide range of POVs out there by scholars on the subject. Claiming encyclopedic neutrality or accuracy by subscribing to (and defending) only one school of thought (for whatever reason) is actually very un-encyclopedic. Ramallite (talk) 21:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
According to the Oxford Dictionary of Islam the term was "First applied to Meccans who refused submission to Islam, the term implies an active rejection of divine revelation. All unbelievers are thought to face eternal damnation in the afterlife. Although there is disagreement about whether Jews and Christians are unbelievers..". BTW shouldn't we have separate articles on "kafir" and "kufr"? -- Ian Pitchford 21:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
:2:62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .
:2:105 . Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) nor Al-Mushrikûn (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, idolaters, polytheists, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allâh chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allâh is the Owner of Great Bounty.
:3:113-115. Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of Allâh during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in Allâh and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allâh knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn
Which part of this article is disputed? Auca m an Talk 00:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I've been trying to figure out what I am with regards to Islam, and this page doesn't seem to help. I'm afraid to ask a Muslim because they seem to get offended when you say you are an atheist. Like I read the passages in the Qu'ran. They'll say something like "If you die deny the truth, you are kaffur" or whatever, but I don't deny the truth, I don't even if know what the truth is! So what is an atheist with regards to Islam? Is an atheist Kafir? What defines Kafir? One who disagrees with Muslims? One who doesn't say he is a Muslim? Or one who denies the truth? -- 72.38.232.184 23:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Arne List 17:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The overwhelming majority of this article appeared to be nothing but personal opinion, original research, and unverified claims.
Normally, the protocol would be to simply tag these sections as unreferenced and ask for sources to be provided. In the case of many of these uncited claims in the article, however, tags have remained for nearly two years. It seems to have been just sitting here.
This has the potential to be a great article, but there is so much work to be done. Multiple sources representing different historical viewpoints should be added, right now it is seriously lacking.
MezzoMezzo (
talk)
05:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
It would be interesting to know if any work has been done to establish an etymological link between the words 'kafara' and 'cover', they look pretty much identical and have similar meaning, particularly in the original sense of the word, coincidence?
Also I noticed a lot of villages and towns in the Levant (Sham region: Syria, Jordan, Palestine) have names prefixed with kafr, perhaps a throwback to the agricultural origin of the word? -- Baba farouq ( talk) 22:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
This entire article rests on the idea that kafir comes from a word meaning to cover. There is no evidence of this established in the article. The Qur'anic citation is incorrect. There is no reference to farmered covering seeds there. Even if it is found, this is original research. Please give a linguistic academic source showing kafir=cover.
I have always read and understood kafir to mean "pagan" in Arabic. Hoshidoshi ( talk) 20:31, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I notice the very noticeable absence of quotes from the Qur'an (and Muhammad himself) that explicitly state that people considered Kafir may be murdered, raped, and impregnated with no penalty. Is there any objection to including these facts in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.91.104 ( talk) 12:06, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
all the sources linked on the bottom are islamonline.net, a ridiculous islamic apologist website.
You Kafir !!, how dare you give critique to these very unpartial sources, you will burn in Hell! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.20.67.8 ( talk) 18:05, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Is kofar another spelling? 99.19.44.155 ( talk) 16:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't "However, there is disagreement about whether Jews and Christians are unbelievers" be referenced? Is there a difference? Who differs? On what aspect? What is the difference? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.92.68.145 ( talk) 19:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Kafirs include the People of the Book. The word "kafir" literally means "one who conceals the Truth." Muslims believe that the Jews and Christians concealed the Truth by "corrupting" (altering) their holy books. The incorrectly article claims that the People of the Book are not kafirs and fails to give a citation. -- Zeno of Elea 10:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
"Kafara, kufr, kafir, and derivative forms of the word, imply a deliberate rejection of Faith as opposed to a mistaken idea of Allah or faith, which is not inconsistent with an earnest desire to see the truth. Where there is such desire, the Grace and Mercy of Allah gives guidance. But that guidance is not efficacious when it is deliberately rejected, and the possibility of rejection follows from the grant of free will. The consequence of the rejection is that the spiritual faculties become dead or impervious to better influences. . . We now come to a third class of people, the hypocrites. They are untrue to themselves, and therefore their hearts are diseased (2:10.) The disease tends to spread, like all evil. They are curable but if they harden their hearts, they soon pass into the category of those who deliberately reject light." — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrWorm ( talk • contribs) 20:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The section "Kafir and Jihad" is messy and confusing.
First of all this:
"For dealing with non-Muslims, Jasser Auda, a director of the al-Maqasid Research Centre in the Philosophy of the Islamic Law in London, England, says that the general rule is mentioned in the verse that says what means:
Birr in this context is likened to birr al-walidain, the kindness that a Muslim should show to his or her parents. This quote addresses the relationship between the concepts of kafir and jihad in Islam."
Birr isn't actually mentioned in this context, so what's this all about? Furthermore, the phrase "the verse that says what means" is confusing, to say the least. Is this, or is this not, what the verse says?
The last two paragraphs are also confusing:
"However, the research of Dr. Sherman Jackson suggests a separation between the classical terms of "jihad" and the modern interpretations of "jihad." According to Jackson, both the Qur'an and classical interpretations of jihad show that "a perennial 'state of war'" existed, where in which the "assumed relationship" between neighboring tribes was one of hostility, while in the modern world the "assumed relationship" illustrates a state of peace unless provoked by the other party.
Thus, although “jihad” was often painted as a “holy war” against infidels, the historical and cultural backgrounds of the Muslims involved in “jihad” must be taken into consideration."
What exactly is this trying to say? That Muslims in the past waged unceasing war against their neighbors because they were Arabs, not because they were Muslims? Maitreya ( talk) 14:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
It is at the internet archive here or in html form, here. The page cited in the ref is the first page of the preface. I encourage everybody to read that, and consider if this is the kind of source we want to use in WP for a term like this. The source is from a different era and is written in an outdated (in many ways) context, and should not be used to refer to anything in the present tense (the content it was used to support used "is"). If we want to keep the source (and to me that it is a big "if"), we should attribute any content to its time and social location. I have removed the content and source for now, pending discussion here. Jytdog ( talk) 15:27, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
kafiraphobic and infadelaphobia describe the mental mindset of those who use this word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.171.85.62 ( talk) 09:45, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
This section most definitely does NOT read like an encyclopedia. It reads like a religious text, condemning non-believers and describing what horrors await them. This section comes off not at all like a scholar, but like a cleric is who unabashedly denouncing non-believers.
This needs to be rectified. This page, and all of Wikipedia, is meant as a view into subjects from a scholarly perspective. This is NOT an outlet for preaching or proselytizing personal beliefs. And that is definitely what I believe is happening here.
If this had been done from a scholarly perspective, it would have read more like, "Certain passages in the Qur'an indicate..." rather than "Unbelieving infidels will wish they had bowed their head to Allah!!!"
...Seriously? No. F*&^ that.
I'm going to be completely honest and say that this was expected when I came here.
Also, someone pointed out that many of these references come from Islamonline.net. This is unacceptable. These are not unbiased sources.
50.142.186.186 ( talk) 20:34, 1 July 2014 (UTC)Tom
Just read through this carefully. None of these sources actually connect the two terms. This is some kind of WP:OR/essay:
For dealing with non-Muslims, Jasser Auda, a director of the al-Maqasid Research Centre in the Philosophy of the Islamic Law in London, England, says that the general rule is mentioned in the verse that says what means:
- "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers." ([ Quran 60:8)
Birr in this context is likened to birr al-walidain, the kindness that a Muslim should show to his or her parents. [1] This quote addresses the relationship between the concepts of kafir and jihad in Islam.
While the Qur'anic statement of peace towards non-Muslims and non-believers is implied within this passage, the practical sense of jihad in Islam is derived from the example of Muhammad. A. Ghosh, author of The Koran and the kafir cites Muhammad's war against the Qurayza Jewish tribe in 627 A.D. and subsequent wars of the caliphate as the starting point for a pattern of " jihad" that he translates as "holy war" against the infidel in the Muslim religion. [2]
However, the research of Dr. Sherman Jackson suggests a separation between the classical terms of " jihad" and the modern interpretations of " jihad." According to Jackson, both the Qur'an and classical interpretations of jihad show that "a perennial 'state of war'" existed, where in which the "assumed relationship" between neighboring tribes was one of hostility, while in the modern world the "assumed relationship" illustrates a state of peace unless provoked by the other party. [3]
Thus, although " jihad" was often painted as a "holy war" against infidels, the historical and cultural backgrounds of the Muslims involved in "jihad" must be taken into consideration. [4]
References
- ^ IslamOnline, Jasser Auda
- ^ Ghosh, A. (1983). The Koran and the Kafir: Islam and the Infidel: all that an infidel needs to know about the Koran but is embarrassed to ask. Houston: A. Ghosh. p. 26.
- ^ Sherman, Jackson (2002). "Jihad and the Modern World". Journal of Islamic Law and Culture. Retrieved 26 September 2013.
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Thoughts? Jytdog ( talk) 03:23, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
This too appears to be all WP:OR
The Qur'an contains numerous verses in which details are provided of the evil characteristics of and unpleasant fate awaiting unbelievers: [1]
In the structure of Islamic thought, kufr represents all things unacceptable and offensive to God ( Allāh). [2]
- Odious: "(Such) as dispute about the signs of God, without any authority that hath reached them. Grievous and odious (is such conduct) in the sight of God and of the Believers." [40: 35]
- Mocked: "But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers." [83: 34]
- Punished: "But ye have indeed rejected (Him), and soon will come the inevitable (punishment)!" [25: 77]
- Terrorized: "[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."" [8: 12]
- Destroyed: "Of the wrong-doers the last was remnant was cut off. Praise be to God, the Cherisher of the Worlds." [6: 45]
- Slain: "You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization." [4: 91]
- Crucified: "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment." [5: 33]
- Evil: "Say thou: 'Yea, and ye shall then be humiliated (on account of your evil)." [37: 18]
- Cursed: "Accursed wherever they are found, [being] seized and massacred completely." [33: 61] [3]
References
- ^ The Surahs of the Qur'an University of Southern California
- ^ Adams, Charles; Kevin Reinhart. "Kufr". The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World. Retrieved 4 December 2012.
- ^ Yusuf Ali, Abdullah (1987). The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation, and Commentary. Elmhurst, New York: Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc.
Jytdog ( talk) 03:26, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
BoogaLouie please don't WP:SPS in an article like this. Thanks. Jytdog ( talk) 21:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
There is increasing evidence in the form of reliable sources that the term has a derogatory/racist meaning yet I can find not a single mention of the fact in the entry, that would be like this article having no racist connotations expressed in the article and as such disguises the facts which would be against WP:POV With that in mind we need a debate on what it's prominence should be in the main body of the article, regards. Twobells t@lk 09:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
The term kafir is not necessarily a derogatory term. It's usage is similar to the term Jew used by very conservative Muslims. Its equivalent English term, the non-believer, is similar is nature. It depends on how it's used. In other word, it depends on its context. __earth 02:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
First off, we must realize that Arabic can be quite challenging linguistically. For example short vowels are not sounded out, but long ones are. Basically there is a good chunk of ambiguity there especially if you are not familiar with what a word SHOULD be. Context counts. Secondly, I feel that it must be noted in some manner within the first few lines of the entry that kafir is used as a slur today. To this end I point to the article on Undercover Mosque - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Mosque . Kafir is used by more than one individual there as an unambigious slur. Now, some may say this is not the case. But the show clearly shows the word being used in a hateful context. Much as the word "nigger" (god I hate having to write that) would be used against a person of African origon. To start with that word was used as a descriptor of skin color. It later became a slur. Regardless of how kafir started, it is now used by some extremists as a slur and as such should be noted that way.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.221.234 ( talk) 05:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
>>>im shia and as far as i know, christians and jews are NOT considered pure, they are (nijs), so i think whoever wrote that should recheck the source. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
58.172.217.47 (
talk)
12:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
the content of this section conflicts the title.
the article neutrality is also doubtful and reads as an anti-islam pro-european argument for slavery and the abuse of uncontracted slaves ie those people enslaved outside of war who were displaced to far distant lands without sufficient record of family name and origination.
it is true that kuffar can be translated as disbeliever or similar however this is not a derogatory term. it simply implies anyone who does not believe in islam (e.g. as the difference between native and foreign are distinguished as member and non-member of a particular group) it must however also be noted that even a kuffar is in a capacity still within islam as kuffar are included in the quran as a part of the body of mankind. it is not an exclusionary term or sect, it is moreso an entitlement of ideological choice, that is to say; a kuffar is an individual or collective of individuals that deny the revelations of their existence. furthermore, the state of belief is in the control of god, that it is a trial and as such a practicing muslim (in whichever traditional ritual or otherwise) can be at times turned to the state of a kuffar.
i will also add in response to the comment above, shia or not; firstly one should not draw into sects. secondly there is no particular mention of purity of christians or jews, or purity of people and does not express any people except possibly jesus who had not in some humanly capacity percievably sinned. there is however encouragement towards purification and again moreso to 'seek' purification than to purify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.154.152 ( talk) 07:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
The word "Kafir" means a person who doesn't believe in Allah, a Pagan a Heathen an Infidel, whereas Christians, and Jews are not Kuffar (Plural), rather they are believers and the people of the book, they are obviously not Momins or Muslims, They are people with Books or people of the books. Quran mentions them as that, and also as Yahood and Nasara. By proper definition and etymology the word Kafir is a Pagan or a Heathen person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.33.140.175 ( talk) 13:49, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
User:MusenInvincible you have been trying to add first this:
Nevertheless, Quran mentioned directly about some characteristics of kafir which refer to people who believed in Jesus' divinity and Trinity concept. [1] [2] [3]
and then this: Quran also mentioned that people who believed in divinity of Christ and Trinity concept are unbelievers (kafir). [4] [5]
References
The English here doesn't make sense - what exactly is the idea that you want to add here? Is this something about the definition of "Kafir"? Jytdog ( talk) 19:22, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
Doesn't make sense? there are five sources (two of them are secondary sources) which certainly refers to the definition of "
Kafir" (means: "disbelievers" in Islamic point of view).
you mentioned 'dead-links' of three verses of Quran, then I replace them with these:
Secondary sources:
However, do you want to say "Doesn't make sense" to the truths that based on some references? or do you want to say that "the words from the Holy Book and scholarly perspectives" are mindless words? If you do, surely it is only matter of your own mindset. Indirectly, you stated derogatory comments to the content of Holy Book. You seemed impelled your own opinion about the contribution rather than support the fact that those edits are reliable (from
Quran with secondary sources) which are also appropriate to the
encyclopedic rule.
Is it wrong that a contributor want to add facts with realiable sources on Wikipedia? If the sentence is still illogic in your perspective, don't you can rephrase the sentence? Don't you see that the text is on the section In the Quran, what's wrong then if a contributor try to make some references from Quran itself?
If you disagree with an edit, isn't better to provide your proper statement rather than refute the truths referring to the reliable sources by undoing edits with no reason.
Consider to improve article content rather than refute the facts with personal argument.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Deblka ( talk • contribs) 03:28, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Kindly add information about Kafirphobia. 2405:204:4313:D858:A555:EC98:4F61:CB30 ( talk) 16:00, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
The content of this edit is not in the citation given. More importantly, the status of concubine did not apply to polytheists so I doubt a source can be found on this. VR talk 14:03, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
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Is
this a reliable source? What about
this,
this,
this or
this?—
Dr2Rao (
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08:02, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
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Kafir is not simply an atheist. [1]— Dr2Rao ( talk) 16:37, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Do you have a page number?
Richard-of-Earth ( talk) 18:43, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
References
I am a rookie/novice to Wikipedia. This edit seems have reverted well sourced edits, so someone please add them back or explain why it should stay reverted. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.186.208.19 ( talk) 05:40, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
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There is a sentence in the "History of usage" section which reads, "In 2019,
Nahdlatul Ulama, the largest independent Islamic organisation in the world based in Indonesia, issued a proclamation urging Muslims to refrain from using the theologically violent word kafir to refer to non-Muslims, in the interest of promoting religious tolerance and co-existence". Please add the same to the lead for neutrality. Thanks.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2409:4071:5B7:6978:0:0:1072:90A0 (
talk)
16:09, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The article says Hindus and Buddhists are Kaffirs. In real life Muslims have a lot in Common infact many many words from Arabic are related to sanskrit. Also, Prophet Muhammad is a God in Vedic View. he is the God of The World. so my revision is most accurate.
also its discrimination to put other religons as Kaffirs as well. A KAFFIR IS A PERSON WHO DOESNT WANT TO FOLLOW ISLAM . it can reffer to Christian, Jews, Hindu, Buddhist whatever religon but Prophet Muhammad is a God in Vedism so its wrong to put target kaffirs.
that leads to conflicts betweeen communities. who were forced to embrace Islam due to Jihads controlling areas. please stop targeting other religons as kaffirs it is discrimination.
I suspect alibadawi and Garywbush are indeed the same person. Please check user:alibadawi's talk history
Why would Garywbush say sorry for the thing that he didn't do? It was alibadawi that violated 3R rule and he should say sorry instead. But no, it was Gary. And Garywbush's action to undo his edit there makes the case against him stronger. __earth 10:16, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
Slander as we know it as against Wikipedia policy and Earth did not even email me when my email address is clearly on my User Page. He just began slandering me that I was related to User:Alibadawi, who he claimed was my socketpuppet. I am sure slander is against Wikipedia policy and I want to know the process to bring this up to the appropriate Wikipedia authorities. Garywbush 01:31, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
why is this talkpage used as a forum for sockpuppet allegations and related accusations? go to WP:RFC, WIkipedia:Dispute resolution. dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
as far as i'm aware, it is on RFC somewhere but that's such an unorganised mess that its impossible to find the relevant comments Robdurbar 10:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The definition in the article currently strikes me as a bit, em, weird. The word kafir is almost always used in Arabic to refer to a non-believer, not to "someone who hides the truth". That may be its original meaning, or its etymological origin, but neither of those are what we should give as its actual current meaning. Also, the next paragraph reads very like a cut-and-paste from some website (islamonline.net) which I can't access (presumably because they're nasty loonies).
I propose changing the definition to reflect the real meaning, and I woudl suggest that a good, NPOV and sourced way of doing this would be to use the translations given by Arabic-English dictionaries. We could try Hans Wehr and al-Mawrid. Palmiro | Talk 23:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Elias' pocket dictionary translates kafr as to cover, hide. The al-majani pocket dictionary translates the root 'kfr' as to deny God To be or become an unbeliever, and none of the derived words listed have the meaning of cover or hide. It looks like there is a good deal of ambiguity. The Infidel 19:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Jorge said below that
"Infidel is only used when translating Muslims text and speeches, presumably always for the word "kafir", and it is understood by English readers to mean basically "non-Muslim". The word "infidel" is not used by Christians to refer to anyone, precisely because in English it means "non-Muslim", not "non-Christian". Christians use "pagan", "heathen", "non-Christian', "non-believer", "apostate", depending on the case."
That is absolutely not true. Infidel has used both in Christianity and Islam. Even if it's synonymous with heathen, pagan, or gentile in Christianity which would refer to a non-believer, infidel has often been used with christianity both in its Latin īnfidēlis which means not-faithful and even in United States english uptil today. One example is where Lincoln said "It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it are among its worst and least pleasant examples. It will not do to investigate the subject of religion too closely, as it is apt to lead to infidelity." It is commonly used by extremist christians too. -- a.n.o.n.y.m t 14:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to Kafir, though I'm not happy with this. — Nightst a llion (?) 11:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Kafir (Islam) →
infidel – As discussed above, the article's title "kafir", with this sense, is an Arabic word that has not been assimilated into English, and which has a standard translation, "infidel". Namely, when translating an Arabic text that uses the word "kafir" into English, that word is noramlly translated as "infidel", not left as "kafir". The word "infidel" is not used for any other purpose (except for some archaic uses that are too old to be relevant to article naming issues). Per Wikipedia rules, the article should be renamed to the English word.
On the other hand, the word "kafir" is used in English but with other senses: (1) as an alternate spelling (not misspelling) of "Kaffir", used e.g. in "Kafir Wars", "kafir corn", etc; (2) as "Kafir", the name of the "Nuri" peoples of Nuristan before their forced Islamization at the end of the 19th century (see
Hindukush Kafir people and
Kafiristan). These other senses of "kafir" in English are additional reasons to use another name for "kafir (Islam)".
Jorge Stolfi
09:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
This is bullshit. We need to vote to return the page to its original address but we didn't have to when it was moved here. __earth ( Talk) 03:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
On the name Infidel: Should kamikaze be moved to suicide attack? No. __earth ( Talk) 11:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
On the name Infidel: Kafir is used by a reasonable number of English-speakers to have its own article. We don't redirect Allah to God or Cinco de Mayo to May 5. joturner 11:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
On the name Infidel: WHO IS TRYING TO COVER THE TRUTH? or: where has my Oppose gone? Is this a kind of Florida election or what? The Infidel 22:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The word "kafir" seems to be a common variant (not misspelling!) of "kaffir", which has many important senses not related to kafir (Islam). It is not clear that the latter sense is so much more important that it deserves to be made the default sense. Jorge Stolfi 05:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC) PS. Besides, it is an unassimilated Arabic word that has an English translation, so the title is inappropriate anyway. Jorge Stolfi 08:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Not only is this "vote" horribly mangled and difficult to follow (although, thankfully, it isn't full of ----s... but the proposal itself is a really bad idea... While everyone has one conception of what "infidel" means when used to translate kafir, the word "infidel" has a very different meaning in English in contexts free from the taint of Islamoengineered discussion. If the article is moved it should be moved to Infidel (Islam), not to Infidel. Tom e r talk 01:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems that the problem here is the "Geocities syndrome", something that I have seen happening in many other places through Wikipedia. Namely, one or more people who are interested in something start writing an article on it, directed only to those readers who are concerned with the subject. That is, an article that reads like a typical thematic site on the internet — as if Wikipedia was the latest reincarnation of Geocities. Please, folks, let's not forget that every Wikipedia article should be written for the random wikipedia reader who, has a rule, knows very little of the subject and has no long-term interest on it.
Not just the old name, but also the contents of the "kafir (Islam)" article seem to suffer from that problem. The article reads as if it was directed to a relatively small subset of the readers (even among Muslim readers) who are already familiar with the term. It focuses on fine "insider" disputes, with plenty of "proof by citation of authority" arguments (which are not appropriate for a Wikipedia article), while omitting even the most basic facts that a non-Muslim reader from Greenland or Tahiti would want to know. (By the way, this was the most common problem of the many articles I cleaned up over the past month, including a dozen articles about various senses of kafir/kaffir, articles on a dozen creole/kriol/kreyol/kriolu languages, on Portuguese-related topics, and a handful more.)
As I see it, this controversy about the move "kafir" -> "kafir (Islam)" is just another facet of that same problem. In the comments above, there does not seen to be much concern about the convenience of benefit for the general readers, especially those who are not interested in "kafir (Islam)" but in other senses of kafir. Rather, it seems that those editors who have this page on their watchlist (perhaps less than a dozen?) oppose the move because it would be (slightly) inconvenient to them.
Although English is not my native language, for the last 30 years (including the 13 years I lived in the US) I have been reading more English than all other languages combined. And I have read a lot of stuff, including a fair amount of material about Islam, with many translated quotes from Muslims of all epochs and stations. I have seen many foreign words like kamikaze and Cinco de Mayo used in ordinary Enlish texts, thousands of times. I have seen uncountably many times Allah, Caliph, Imam, Ramadan, sharia, fatwa, jihad, sura, bismillah, and somehow I even got to memorize alf laila wa-laila. Now, I may have been extraordinarily unlucky, but I do not recall ever seeing the word "kafir" used in English for the sense of "infidel" — which, on the other hand, must be almost as frequent as "Allah".
If I recall correctly, I got to the "kafir"/"kaffir" pages, a couple of weeks ago, through an article which originally said something like "baila is popular among the Kaffir, descendant of the Kaffir slaves who were brought ro Sri Lanka by the Portuguese. These kaffrinha ...". Namely, a typical "Geocities-style" article. It took me several hours of searching and reading to make some sense out of the several articles on the various senses of kafir. The few pointers between those pages were often misleading, e.g. by assuming that the Kafir of Kafiristan was a sub-sense of kafir=infidel. In fact, it took me some time to realize that the "kafir" article was actually about "infidel", since the head paragraph said that "infidel" was an incorrect translation of the term (which it is not).
The move kafir -> kafir (Islam) was only a small part of the cleanup that I did of all those kafir/kaffir articles. It was several days of collecting the information, moving it to the proper pages, removing duplication, sorting, fixing layout, prose, markup, links, disambiguation, and of course writing the "kaffir (disambiguation)" page. Of course I got no "thanks" for all that work, only complaints about an innocuous (actually, quite helpful and appropriate, I would say) name change, by a small set of editors who apparently believe their "kafir" to be so much more important than other people's "kafir"s that it should be the default sense. But I am used to wikipedia, and that doesn't hurt any more. Not too much, I mean.
Well, I think that I have already wasted far too much time, mine and especially other people's, on this nit. As the Elders say, there are a million other articles out there where I could waste time in more positive and agreeable ways.
So long, and all the best.
Jorge Stolfi
14:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
In the now locked discussion section Jorge Stolfi asks me:
Quote: "PS. Which posting did I delete???? Jorge Stolfi 00:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)"
Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Kafir&diff=prev&oldid=37738408
The Infidel
21:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
As per user Heraclius request, I included a source but that is not all I would like to point out to him that the neologism kaafirphobia gets 21 hits in a search using Google. Colin chee 18:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
This is just a note that SOMEONE has been asking people from mychristiannetwork.com to keep the kafirphobia information. This is complete B.S., and whomever decided to lobby thir biased friends to do this needs to reflect on their behavior.-- Dr.Worm 20:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
ok, I agree that this is a borderline case of notability. Note, however, that we are talking of notability, not OR. Wikipedia covers a lot of obscure internet phenomena, and while I would be opposed to an entire "Kaafirophobia" article, on grounds on notability, a brief mention here, imho, does not hurt, as long as the term is put in proper perspectice. I am an "inclusionist qua redirection" I suppose. Not that I'd edit-war over something like this, but I really don't see why the term needs to be suppressed, seeing that this article is still very short and badly in need of more material. That's just my opinion, of course, and I'll gracefully yield to community consensus :) dab (ᛏ) 09:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Alibadawi, you are quoting www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Kaafirphobia nationmaster (which is a mirror of Wikipedia) and Colin Chee's company page as sources. And to mention it again, even Google search doesn't give anything credible academic source. __earth 04:46, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
it's very simple: a geocities page is not a reference. their definition is simpl parroting the Runnymede Trust definition of Islamophobia. If the term gains some currency in the media, we can point to the geocities page as an early source. As long as Colin Chee is the only one touting the term, it has no place on Wikipedia. dab (ᛏ) 10:03, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
btw, I found this quite funny :) dab (ᛏ) 10:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
As already argued, "Kaafirophobia" and "Kafirophobia" are definitely neologisms. I went ahead and looked through fourteen English dictionaries, two Deutsch, one Arabic, and a few etymological texts just for fun . The words do not exist outside of a few people using them as part of their personal idiolects.
The OED is considered *the* authority for words in the English language. The closest match is Kaffir. Thus:
From the Oxford English Dictionary, second edition (1989) - online version (and therefore the one most frequently updated with new words that have something resembling common usage) P.MacUidhir 18:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Why on earth is this article part of Islamism? Faro0485 ( talk) 09:41, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
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WP:NOT a place for advocacy, and we are not a location which should be calling any religion the "true faith." Therefore, this wording is POV. The word is a derogatory term for non-muslims, and that is how it should be described. Queeran 14:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I understand that there can be dissent weather the slaves sold by muslim arabs to christan portugues have been captured ("taken prisoner") during war or just in raids for the purpose of gaining "merchandise". But I cannot figure out any decent reason why in the see also section Nastik - Mleccha - Goyim - Gentile are frequently deleted.
Why should Nastik - Mleccha - Goyim - Gentile be considered "irrelevant" but heathen or pagan not? Let the reader decide what's irrelevant. The Infidel 21:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
On the discussion page of the articel
Infidel (
Talk:Infidel) I cannot find anything about links in the "see also" section, and nothing whatsoever that looks even faintly like a consensus. So what exactely are you, Mike18xx, talking about?
Further, the interest of knowing about a word representing an idea does not depend on the fact if it is still used in everyday language or if it has faded out of mind and usage. The "see also" section may refer to anything that is related, whether by analogy, by historical precedence, by gradual difference or by anything that is considered related by the readers.
What does more harm: to leave a link that is considered "irrelevant" by some, but not by all, or to have a link that is considered "irrelevant" by some, but not by all.
Still, I cannot figure out any decent reason why those links (except, perhaps and out of insufficiency, red links) should be hidden from the readers.
The Infidel
22:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Due to recent edits of the introductory sentence, I wanted to make a few points:
It is imperative that this article, as a Wikipedia source, does not become a playground for promoting ideological POVs in lieu of scholarly and sources materials. Ramallite (talk) 19:05, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like to note that it is silly to have a section "According to scholars". What is the rest of the article? According to random Wikipedians? Clearly, the main question is about delineating kafir and "people of the book" (do the terms overlap?). Since the term has essentially become a slur, its application will depend on the speaker's mindset, i.e. does he want to display hostility or to imply that really everyone should be a Muslim, or does he want to emphasize commonalities. The important thing about the word is that it is derogatory. dab (ᛏ) 20:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
While I have not read as extensively on the subject, I can say that from my own (limited) reading that such opinions are not shared by all Muslims. According to WP's Hanbali article, 'the Hanbali school is followed by less than 5%of the world's Muslim population. It is presently the school of jurisprudence used in modern day Saudi Arabia.' (my emphasis). Like any debate, there are multiple opinions. There are regularly-held Christian-Muslim lectures or panels in Palestine by clergy from both religions who discuss the many similarities in the two faiths, including obeying of God, and bring up verses to support their arguments. There are articles on the internet in Arabic by some Saudi or Egyptian Islamic scholars (as well as people like Friedmann and others) who bring up a separate set of quotations to support the argument that the People of the Book are anything from merely misled to actual kufaar. These all constitute multiple POVs, and depending on where one stands on the religious spectrum, one will always choose those verses that suit the argument or ideology that one is trying to make. To take another example, if you follow the Old Testament, American football players would be put to death for touching the skin of an unclean animal (pig skin which the football is partially made out of), according to some interpretations. Leviticus, for another example, prohibits removal of hair from certain areas of a man's temple (if I understand correctly), so certain haircuts would also be punishable according to certain interpretations. In Islam, there is a low-key debate among few (not many) about whether the Koran itself actually commands all women to cover their faces or if that only actually applied to the wives of the prophet Mohammad. So again, these are all multiple POVs inherent to any attempt to interpret religious text to suit one's own bent. This all ought to be taken into account (but not necessarily mentioned) in the introduction of an article as deep and multifaceted as this one. Ramallite (talk) 20:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually these are not 'parallels' at all, and as such cannot serve any rhetorical purpose. These are simply examples to (hopefully) illustrate that, when it comes to such topics, there is a wide range of POVs out there by scholars on the subject. Claiming encyclopedic neutrality or accuracy by subscribing to (and defending) only one school of thought (for whatever reason) is actually very un-encyclopedic. Ramallite (talk) 21:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
According to the Oxford Dictionary of Islam the term was "First applied to Meccans who refused submission to Islam, the term implies an active rejection of divine revelation. All unbelievers are thought to face eternal damnation in the afterlife. Although there is disagreement about whether Jews and Christians are unbelievers..". BTW shouldn't we have separate articles on "kafir" and "kufr"? -- Ian Pitchford 21:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
:2:62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .
:2:105 . Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) nor Al-Mushrikûn (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, idolaters, polytheists, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allâh chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allâh is the Owner of Great Bounty.
:3:113-115. Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of Allâh during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in Allâh and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allâh knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn
Which part of this article is disputed? Auca m an Talk 00:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I've been trying to figure out what I am with regards to Islam, and this page doesn't seem to help. I'm afraid to ask a Muslim because they seem to get offended when you say you are an atheist. Like I read the passages in the Qu'ran. They'll say something like "If you die deny the truth, you are kaffur" or whatever, but I don't deny the truth, I don't even if know what the truth is! So what is an atheist with regards to Islam? Is an atheist Kafir? What defines Kafir? One who disagrees with Muslims? One who doesn't say he is a Muslim? Or one who denies the truth? -- 72.38.232.184 23:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
-- Arne List 17:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The overwhelming majority of this article appeared to be nothing but personal opinion, original research, and unverified claims.
Normally, the protocol would be to simply tag these sections as unreferenced and ask for sources to be provided. In the case of many of these uncited claims in the article, however, tags have remained for nearly two years. It seems to have been just sitting here.
This has the potential to be a great article, but there is so much work to be done. Multiple sources representing different historical viewpoints should be added, right now it is seriously lacking.
MezzoMezzo (
talk)
05:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
It would be interesting to know if any work has been done to establish an etymological link between the words 'kafara' and 'cover', they look pretty much identical and have similar meaning, particularly in the original sense of the word, coincidence?
Also I noticed a lot of villages and towns in the Levant (Sham region: Syria, Jordan, Palestine) have names prefixed with kafr, perhaps a throwback to the agricultural origin of the word? -- Baba farouq ( talk) 22:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
This entire article rests on the idea that kafir comes from a word meaning to cover. There is no evidence of this established in the article. The Qur'anic citation is incorrect. There is no reference to farmered covering seeds there. Even if it is found, this is original research. Please give a linguistic academic source showing kafir=cover.
I have always read and understood kafir to mean "pagan" in Arabic. Hoshidoshi ( talk) 20:31, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I notice the very noticeable absence of quotes from the Qur'an (and Muhammad himself) that explicitly state that people considered Kafir may be murdered, raped, and impregnated with no penalty. Is there any objection to including these facts in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.91.104 ( talk) 12:06, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
all the sources linked on the bottom are islamonline.net, a ridiculous islamic apologist website.
You Kafir !!, how dare you give critique to these very unpartial sources, you will burn in Hell! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.20.67.8 ( talk) 18:05, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Is kofar another spelling? 99.19.44.155 ( talk) 16:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't "However, there is disagreement about whether Jews and Christians are unbelievers" be referenced? Is there a difference? Who differs? On what aspect? What is the difference? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.92.68.145 ( talk) 19:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Kafirs include the People of the Book. The word "kafir" literally means "one who conceals the Truth." Muslims believe that the Jews and Christians concealed the Truth by "corrupting" (altering) their holy books. The incorrectly article claims that the People of the Book are not kafirs and fails to give a citation. -- Zeno of Elea 10:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
"Kafara, kufr, kafir, and derivative forms of the word, imply a deliberate rejection of Faith as opposed to a mistaken idea of Allah or faith, which is not inconsistent with an earnest desire to see the truth. Where there is such desire, the Grace and Mercy of Allah gives guidance. But that guidance is not efficacious when it is deliberately rejected, and the possibility of rejection follows from the grant of free will. The consequence of the rejection is that the spiritual faculties become dead or impervious to better influences. . . We now come to a third class of people, the hypocrites. They are untrue to themselves, and therefore their hearts are diseased (2:10.) The disease tends to spread, like all evil. They are curable but if they harden their hearts, they soon pass into the category of those who deliberately reject light." — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrWorm ( talk • contribs) 20:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The section "Kafir and Jihad" is messy and confusing.
First of all this:
"For dealing with non-Muslims, Jasser Auda, a director of the al-Maqasid Research Centre in the Philosophy of the Islamic Law in London, England, says that the general rule is mentioned in the verse that says what means:
Birr in this context is likened to birr al-walidain, the kindness that a Muslim should show to his or her parents. This quote addresses the relationship between the concepts of kafir and jihad in Islam."
Birr isn't actually mentioned in this context, so what's this all about? Furthermore, the phrase "the verse that says what means" is confusing, to say the least. Is this, or is this not, what the verse says?
The last two paragraphs are also confusing:
"However, the research of Dr. Sherman Jackson suggests a separation between the classical terms of "jihad" and the modern interpretations of "jihad." According to Jackson, both the Qur'an and classical interpretations of jihad show that "a perennial 'state of war'" existed, where in which the "assumed relationship" between neighboring tribes was one of hostility, while in the modern world the "assumed relationship" illustrates a state of peace unless provoked by the other party.
Thus, although “jihad” was often painted as a “holy war” against infidels, the historical and cultural backgrounds of the Muslims involved in “jihad” must be taken into consideration."
What exactly is this trying to say? That Muslims in the past waged unceasing war against their neighbors because they were Arabs, not because they were Muslims? Maitreya ( talk) 14:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
It is at the internet archive here or in html form, here. The page cited in the ref is the first page of the preface. I encourage everybody to read that, and consider if this is the kind of source we want to use in WP for a term like this. The source is from a different era and is written in an outdated (in many ways) context, and should not be used to refer to anything in the present tense (the content it was used to support used "is"). If we want to keep the source (and to me that it is a big "if"), we should attribute any content to its time and social location. I have removed the content and source for now, pending discussion here. Jytdog ( talk) 15:27, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
kafiraphobic and infadelaphobia describe the mental mindset of those who use this word. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.171.85.62 ( talk) 09:45, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
This section most definitely does NOT read like an encyclopedia. It reads like a religious text, condemning non-believers and describing what horrors await them. This section comes off not at all like a scholar, but like a cleric is who unabashedly denouncing non-believers.
This needs to be rectified. This page, and all of Wikipedia, is meant as a view into subjects from a scholarly perspective. This is NOT an outlet for preaching or proselytizing personal beliefs. And that is definitely what I believe is happening here.
If this had been done from a scholarly perspective, it would have read more like, "Certain passages in the Qur'an indicate..." rather than "Unbelieving infidels will wish they had bowed their head to Allah!!!"
...Seriously? No. F*&^ that.
I'm going to be completely honest and say that this was expected when I came here.
Also, someone pointed out that many of these references come from Islamonline.net. This is unacceptable. These are not unbiased sources.
50.142.186.186 ( talk) 20:34, 1 July 2014 (UTC)Tom
Just read through this carefully. None of these sources actually connect the two terms. This is some kind of WP:OR/essay:
For dealing with non-Muslims, Jasser Auda, a director of the al-Maqasid Research Centre in the Philosophy of the Islamic Law in London, England, says that the general rule is mentioned in the verse that says what means:
- "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers." ([ Quran 60:8)
Birr in this context is likened to birr al-walidain, the kindness that a Muslim should show to his or her parents. [1] This quote addresses the relationship between the concepts of kafir and jihad in Islam.
While the Qur'anic statement of peace towards non-Muslims and non-believers is implied within this passage, the practical sense of jihad in Islam is derived from the example of Muhammad. A. Ghosh, author of The Koran and the kafir cites Muhammad's war against the Qurayza Jewish tribe in 627 A.D. and subsequent wars of the caliphate as the starting point for a pattern of " jihad" that he translates as "holy war" against the infidel in the Muslim religion. [2]
However, the research of Dr. Sherman Jackson suggests a separation between the classical terms of " jihad" and the modern interpretations of " jihad." According to Jackson, both the Qur'an and classical interpretations of jihad show that "a perennial 'state of war'" existed, where in which the "assumed relationship" between neighboring tribes was one of hostility, while in the modern world the "assumed relationship" illustrates a state of peace unless provoked by the other party. [3]
Thus, although " jihad" was often painted as a "holy war" against infidels, the historical and cultural backgrounds of the Muslims involved in "jihad" must be taken into consideration. [4]
References
- ^ IslamOnline, Jasser Auda
- ^ Ghosh, A. (1983). The Koran and the Kafir: Islam and the Infidel: all that an infidel needs to know about the Koran but is embarrassed to ask. Houston: A. Ghosh. p. 26.
- ^ Sherman, Jackson (2002). "Jihad and the Modern World". Journal of Islamic Law and Culture. Retrieved 26 September 2013.
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Thoughts? Jytdog ( talk) 03:23, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
This too appears to be all WP:OR
The Qur'an contains numerous verses in which details are provided of the evil characteristics of and unpleasant fate awaiting unbelievers: [1]
In the structure of Islamic thought, kufr represents all things unacceptable and offensive to God ( Allāh). [2]
- Odious: "(Such) as dispute about the signs of God, without any authority that hath reached them. Grievous and odious (is such conduct) in the sight of God and of the Believers." [40: 35]
- Mocked: "But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers." [83: 34]
- Punished: "But ye have indeed rejected (Him), and soon will come the inevitable (punishment)!" [25: 77]
- Terrorized: "[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."" [8: 12]
- Destroyed: "Of the wrong-doers the last was remnant was cut off. Praise be to God, the Cherisher of the Worlds." [6: 45]
- Slain: "You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization." [4: 91]
- Crucified: "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment." [5: 33]
- Evil: "Say thou: 'Yea, and ye shall then be humiliated (on account of your evil)." [37: 18]
- Cursed: "Accursed wherever they are found, [being] seized and massacred completely." [33: 61] [3]
References
- ^ The Surahs of the Qur'an University of Southern California
- ^ Adams, Charles; Kevin Reinhart. "Kufr". The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Islamic World. Retrieved 4 December 2012.
- ^ Yusuf Ali, Abdullah (1987). The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation, and Commentary. Elmhurst, New York: Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc.
Jytdog ( talk) 03:26, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
BoogaLouie please don't WP:SPS in an article like this. Thanks. Jytdog ( talk) 21:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
There is increasing evidence in the form of reliable sources that the term has a derogatory/racist meaning yet I can find not a single mention of the fact in the entry, that would be like this article having no racist connotations expressed in the article and as such disguises the facts which would be against WP:POV With that in mind we need a debate on what it's prominence should be in the main body of the article, regards. Twobells t@lk 09:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
The term kafir is not necessarily a derogatory term. It's usage is similar to the term Jew used by very conservative Muslims. Its equivalent English term, the non-believer, is similar is nature. It depends on how it's used. In other word, it depends on its context. __earth 02:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
First off, we must realize that Arabic can be quite challenging linguistically. For example short vowels are not sounded out, but long ones are. Basically there is a good chunk of ambiguity there especially if you are not familiar with what a word SHOULD be. Context counts. Secondly, I feel that it must be noted in some manner within the first few lines of the entry that kafir is used as a slur today. To this end I point to the article on Undercover Mosque - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Mosque . Kafir is used by more than one individual there as an unambigious slur. Now, some may say this is not the case. But the show clearly shows the word being used in a hateful context. Much as the word "nigger" (god I hate having to write that) would be used against a person of African origon. To start with that word was used as a descriptor of skin color. It later became a slur. Regardless of how kafir started, it is now used by some extremists as a slur and as such should be noted that way.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.221.234 ( talk) 05:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
>>>im shia and as far as i know, christians and jews are NOT considered pure, they are (nijs), so i think whoever wrote that should recheck the source. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
58.172.217.47 (
talk)
12:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
the content of this section conflicts the title.
the article neutrality is also doubtful and reads as an anti-islam pro-european argument for slavery and the abuse of uncontracted slaves ie those people enslaved outside of war who were displaced to far distant lands without sufficient record of family name and origination.
it is true that kuffar can be translated as disbeliever or similar however this is not a derogatory term. it simply implies anyone who does not believe in islam (e.g. as the difference between native and foreign are distinguished as member and non-member of a particular group) it must however also be noted that even a kuffar is in a capacity still within islam as kuffar are included in the quran as a part of the body of mankind. it is not an exclusionary term or sect, it is moreso an entitlement of ideological choice, that is to say; a kuffar is an individual or collective of individuals that deny the revelations of their existence. furthermore, the state of belief is in the control of god, that it is a trial and as such a practicing muslim (in whichever traditional ritual or otherwise) can be at times turned to the state of a kuffar.
i will also add in response to the comment above, shia or not; firstly one should not draw into sects. secondly there is no particular mention of purity of christians or jews, or purity of people and does not express any people except possibly jesus who had not in some humanly capacity percievably sinned. there is however encouragement towards purification and again moreso to 'seek' purification than to purify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.154.152 ( talk) 07:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
The word "Kafir" means a person who doesn't believe in Allah, a Pagan a Heathen an Infidel, whereas Christians, and Jews are not Kuffar (Plural), rather they are believers and the people of the book, they are obviously not Momins or Muslims, They are people with Books or people of the books. Quran mentions them as that, and also as Yahood and Nasara. By proper definition and etymology the word Kafir is a Pagan or a Heathen person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.33.140.175 ( talk) 13:49, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
User:MusenInvincible you have been trying to add first this:
Nevertheless, Quran mentioned directly about some characteristics of kafir which refer to people who believed in Jesus' divinity and Trinity concept. [1] [2] [3]
and then this: Quran also mentioned that people who believed in divinity of Christ and Trinity concept are unbelievers (kafir). [4] [5]
References
The English here doesn't make sense - what exactly is the idea that you want to add here? Is this something about the definition of "Kafir"? Jytdog ( talk) 19:22, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
Doesn't make sense? there are five sources (two of them are secondary sources) which certainly refers to the definition of "
Kafir" (means: "disbelievers" in Islamic point of view).
you mentioned 'dead-links' of three verses of Quran, then I replace them with these:
Secondary sources:
However, do you want to say "Doesn't make sense" to the truths that based on some references? or do you want to say that "the words from the Holy Book and scholarly perspectives" are mindless words? If you do, surely it is only matter of your own mindset. Indirectly, you stated derogatory comments to the content of Holy Book. You seemed impelled your own opinion about the contribution rather than support the fact that those edits are reliable (from
Quran with secondary sources) which are also appropriate to the
encyclopedic rule.
Is it wrong that a contributor want to add facts with realiable sources on Wikipedia? If the sentence is still illogic in your perspective, don't you can rephrase the sentence? Don't you see that the text is on the section In the Quran, what's wrong then if a contributor try to make some references from Quran itself?
If you disagree with an edit, isn't better to provide your proper statement rather than refute the truths referring to the reliable sources by undoing edits with no reason.
Consider to improve article content rather than refute the facts with personal argument.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Deblka ( talk • contribs) 03:28, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Kindly add information about Kafirphobia. 2405:204:4313:D858:A555:EC98:4F61:CB30 ( talk) 16:00, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
The content of this edit is not in the citation given. More importantly, the status of concubine did not apply to polytheists so I doubt a source can be found on this. VR talk 14:03, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
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Is
this a reliable source? What about
this,
this,
this or
this?—
Dr2Rao (
talk)
08:02, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
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Kafir is not simply an atheist. [1]— Dr2Rao ( talk) 16:37, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Do you have a page number?
Richard-of-Earth ( talk) 18:43, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
References
I am a rookie/novice to Wikipedia. This edit seems have reverted well sourced edits, so someone please add them back or explain why it should stay reverted. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.186.208.19 ( talk) 05:40, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
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There is a sentence in the "History of usage" section which reads, "In 2019,
Nahdlatul Ulama, the largest independent Islamic organisation in the world based in Indonesia, issued a proclamation urging Muslims to refrain from using the theologically violent word kafir to refer to non-Muslims, in the interest of promoting religious tolerance and co-existence". Please add the same to the lead for neutrality. Thanks.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2409:4071:5B7:6978:0:0:1072:90A0 (
talk)
16:09, 3 October 2020 (UTC)