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There has just been a discussion over Claes Borgström, a legal representative of the alleged victims of the supposed sexual assault, I think this came up before, but the article as it stood recently read "Claes Borgström", who represents the two women...". An edit changed this to read "Lawyer Claes Borgström, former Equality Ombudsman and current Social Democratic gender equality spokesperson who is representing the two women...". The editor, Victor Falk, says that this "is a statement of fact providing context", whereas I'm inclined to think it is putting undue weight on the political affiliations and past history of a legal representative, and tending to suggest that these may be somehow significant. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing to suggest that the Swedish legal system prevents people from choosing their own representatives as they see fit, and nor will these necessarily have any direct relevance for the proceedings. I feel that unless we can find external reliable sources which see this issue of significance, we should exclude details about minor participants in this, and confine our article to discussing the subject himself. I'd like to see what others think? AndyTheGrump ( talk) 06:39, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
It's not clear to me why any lawyers need to be named in this article at this point. aprock ( talk) 07:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
All this is very interesting, but without some reliable secondary source (in English per WP:BLP, WP:NONENG), there appears to be no reason for listing the lawyers at this time. aprock ( talk) 18:06, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm from Germany. In the 1960s the German magazine "Der Spiegel" has published an article about the German army with classified material. As a consequence the publisher Rudolf Augstein and some other people have been arrested by the police, the magazine was acccused of treason and the Spiegel office was occupied by the police. The Federal Constitutional Court of Germany decided, that it is legal to publish information like this in Germany.
I see some parallels to Julian Assanges arrestion.
I would like to insert a link to this Spiegel scandal which is very common here in Germany. Do you aggree? -- Muggel78 ( talk) 10:02, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I have read in many places that Assange has an extra digit on one of his hands. Sources differ as to which hand and I have never seen any pictures of his hands. Can anyone confirm this story? 155.136.80.37 ( talk) 14:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone think there is a need to add such a list? I am not sure if he has written books (apart from the one just announced) but I actually found one article he wrote 4 years ago [1]. This led me to see that he wrote another article for the same organization which is already referenced here [2] although the reference actually doesn't address the article but the little "who is he" blurb at the bottom of said article. I would imagine he has written more? If such would these be notable enough to be added as a list of publications at the bottom? I am not sure at the guidelines regarding this but I will try and find cases where I have seen this in other wiki articles about journalists and hence how I was reminded in this case. Cheers! Calaka ( talk) 16:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
The article does not say very much about Assange's political views. What aspects of this should be covered?-- Nowa ( talk) 16:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I hope I am doing this right by editing the comment here.
Anyway, AlJazeera interviewed Julian Assange where he clarifies just that. He mentions that he is not opposed to governements and organization having secrets but the problem being when they become corrupt and try to hide unlawful and unethical behaviour, thats what where he opposes secrecy and sees a need for whistleblowers. He also clearly denies being an anarchist and mentions the need for governement and hirarchical structures in governement and organizations/institutions but the need for transparency where democratic processes benefit from information and/or to uncover unethical behaviour. Andythegrump, there is a source where J. Assange first hand is heard explaining just that- Source: http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/frostovertheworld/2010/12/201012228384924314.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.58.148.172 ( talk) 16:14, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm not too crazy about this new 'autodidact' business. For those who haven't scoured SAT vocab guides, it means 'self-taught'. I don't see how it's relevant, really; we don't care if New York Times writers went to journalism school or just figured it out by themselves. I'd like to take it out and just leave 'journalist', if there's no objection. Ocaasi ( talk) 13:06, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
A very nicely formatted table has been added which adds anyone who every called for Assange's head on a platter. Problem is, this deserves one very short paragraph at best: Assange's activities have been described as terrorism by some in the media and several figures, including A, B, and C, have gone so far as to call for his execution. Done. That table is going to have to go, sadly, for the work that went into it. Ocaasi ( talk) 12:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
A question. Was this 'new' section copied from an earlier version of the article, or from somewhere else? Much of the phrasing seems to match exactly that found on other websites, though they look like mirrors or paste-jobs (without attribution by the look of it sometimes at least). If this is from an earlier version, it should have been restored properly to maintain the edit history, and if it is from somewhere else, we may have real problems... AndyTheGrump ( talk) 15:05, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
here's the most recently added version
Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mike Mullen, said that "Mr. Assange can say whatever he likes about the greater good he thinks he and his source are doing, but the truth is, they might already have on their hands the blood of some young soldier or that of an Afghan family." Assange denies this has happened, and responded by saying, "...it’s really quite fantastic that [Robert] Gates and Mullen...who have ordered assassinations every day, are trying to bring people on board to look at a speculative understanding of whether we might have blood on our hands. These two men arguably are wading in the blood from those wars."[91]
A number of commentators, including current and former US government officials, have accused Assange of terrorism. Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell has called Assange "a high-tech terrorist".[92] Former US House speaker Newt Gingrich, has been quoted as saying, "Information terrorism, which leads to people getting killed, is terrorism, and Julian Assange is engaged in terrorism. He should be treated as an enemy combatant."[93] Within the media, an editorial in the Washington Times by Jeffrey T. Kuhner said Assange should be treated "the same way as other high-value terrorist targets";[94][95] Fox News' National Security Analyst and host "K.T." McFarland has called Assange a terrorist, WikiLeaks "a terrorist organization" and has called for Bradley Manning's execution if he is found guilty of making the leaks;[96] and former Nixon aide and talk radio host G. Gordon Liddy has reportedly suggested that Assange's name be added to the "kill list" of terrorists who can be assassinated without a trial.[97]
Tom Flanagan, former campaign manager for Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, commented in November 2010 that he thought Julian Assange should be assassinated. A complaint has been filed against Flanagan, which states that Flanagan "counselled and/or incited the assassination of Julian Assange contrary to the Criminal Code of Canada," in his remarks on the CBC programme Power & Politics.[98] Flanagan has since apologised for the remarks made during the programme and claimed his intentions were never "to advocate or propose the assassination of Mr. Assange".[99]
In the right section, I think most of this is notable, though it could use a little reworking. I removed a small piece about Bradley Manning, which seems off-topic. Ocaasi ( talk) 13:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC) I think the Flanagan piece is too long and should be part of a more general paragraph about calls for death. Ocaasi ( talk) 13:46, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
If anyone wants to check the quality and accuracy of the citations, here they are. Off2riorob ( talk) 13:52, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange isn’t some well-meaning, anti-war protestor leaking documents in hopes of ending an unpopular war. He’s waging cyberwar on the United States and the global world order. Mr. Assange and his fellow hackers are terrorists and should be prosecuted as such. Off2riorob ( talk) 14:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
This and that not notable newspaper polls of users and suchlike are worthless. As the actual award isn't notable there is no long term value at all. On the 24th of December, the french newspaper Le Monde named him person of the year - so what is notable about that? I s this le monde award noteworthy, no its not, who won this fantastic thing last year? the same goes for the other recent not notable promotional so called awards , and the Postmedia Network named him the top newsmaker for the year. So what? A worthless promotional award, in a week when I remove them again you will say, oh they seems notable at the time. If these so called valuable awards are worthy of addition then show me a secondary report about it? Only primary reports with no assertion of any note. John awarded harry the John award. cited to John.org Off2riorob ( talk) 04:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Assuming that Le Monde's award isn't notable is anglophone bias. It's by far one of the largest and most well-known French newspapers. The Time runner-up and Time reader's choice both received significant external media coverage. -- 75.28.52.27 ( talk) 21:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes, presently very very newsworthy, and the Le monde award has clearly been clarified as noteworty and I am happy for that, I always appreciate worthwhile additions that will have a long term lasting educational value, the others have yet to give me that same feeling. To be honest these others shouldn't even be called awards, they are just fluff really. An award is a valued thing. If there is an insistence to add such trivial claims the title of the section needs changing or we should integrate the content into the article body, as people have a high expectation of what is a worthwhile notable award. the one you have added doesn't meet those expectations by a long margin. Off2riorob ( talk) 01:22, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Another award was announced for Julian by a Romanian national newspaper (that according to Wikipedia is no longer functioning?) [5] (english: [6], although I also did a google translation of the first [7]). Looking to see if other references referenced the above article all I managed to find is non-english websites such as [8] and [9] although based on what I read above I will not add it. Unless of course more note about the award is to be found. Calaka ( talk) 08:34, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Quite many external links were recently removed from the external links section, including:
Off2riorob suggested that we "upload it to commons or add it to the article if its added value" instead. I see no reason why we should not keep at least the TED talk and the personal interviews. Above all, is uploading to commons really an (legal) option? -- spitzl ( talk) 23:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Templar seems to have stuffed them all back in with this edit summary - "It is long past time to clean up the external links and move depreciated or nationalistically hostile links below the good sources that actually quote him" - as I said we are not a link station, we write our own article and only link to something that adds something, which of these links does templar think are nationalistically hostile ? None of them are, they are respected reports, the BBC and so on. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Per the discussion about Death Threats (see above thread), I added a new section called 'Public reception', and combined the criticism with already existing Support and Awards sections. A few small questions:
Accusing someone of being a terrorist goes far beyond "criticism". I think that subsection needs a new title - how about "Demonization"? But seriously, what was wrong with the previous title? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:26, 3 January 2011 (UTC) I suggest we drop the "Public Reaction" section, and just have "Criticism" and "Support" sections. However, one problem is you may have Wikileaks criticism blending with sex allegations criticism, which would be confusing. I think we should have these sections as subsections of the "Wikileaks" section. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:41, 3 January 2011 (UTC) I made that change, hope it's acceptable to everyone. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:56, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I note that hard facts about the case get removed while opinions are included, and I object to this. Most recent incident:
We have already this view of Assange's side in the article: "According to Assange's lawyer, Assange made repeated attempts to contact the prosecution, spending over a month in Stockholm before obtaining permission to leave the country, with the Swedish prosecution stating an interview would not be required" which is more than enough to give this particular part of "his side". It is also a distortion of major facts, btw. Attention, OR or SYNTH coming up: We had a detailed description of the events in the legal process but they were taken out. The rape case was opened on 1 September, he left on 27 September - that's barely four weeks, not five. We have only Assange's words for it that he would be held incommunicado, and in all likelihood lawyers are not allowed to give out details of the other party's statements, which is what he means when he claims that the Swedish lawyer is barred from making public statements. So please delete this again, as it is redundant, misleading in the given context, and speculation. He said a lot of things about why he did not return to Sweden for an interview in Sweden in October, as requested by the Swedish Prosecution, like having better things to do than go to random prosecutors worldwide for a chat, so either you include all these statements or none. Don't cherrypick the ones that make Sweden look bad and Assange the victim of injustice. And btw, what he was told in September was this: there is no arrest warrant on you, so you are free to travel. That's different from "we don't want you for an interview". KathaLu ( talk) 06:20, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
This addition breaks and distorts the diplomacy report and cherry pics an isolated comment from a lengthy diatribe from Palin and then has assange apparently responding to multiple comments, all king of distorting the situation imo. I suggest the Palin comment be isolated and expanded a bit to give it context, possible at the comment wherer she says he is not a journalist... 13:41, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Republican Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin has called Assange, "an anti-American operative with blood on his hands" and suggested he be hunted down like an al-Qaeda or Taliban leader.
Palin says in the full quote from the cite about assange - Palin said of Assange "He is an anti-American operative with blood on his hands. His past posting of classified documents revealed the identity of more than 100 Afghan sources to the Taliban. Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders?" In a post on her Facebook page, the former US Republican vice-presidential candidate wrote: "Assange is not a 'journalist', any more than the 'editor' of al-Qaeda's new English-language magazine Inspire is a 'journalist'."
Significant content sourced only to foreign language sources has been inserted. This content violates several policies.
As the content violates significant BLP related polices I reverted the addition. Another editor reinstated the content. If there is a specific concern about having this sort of content included, the most important aspect is to get reliable sources which are verifiable and high quality. Discussion welcome. aprock ( talk) 06:29, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I see the content has been reinserted without addressing the problems of sourcing (and undue). I assume that these problems will be resolved in the next day or so. If the issues aren't resolved, content sourced only to foreign language sources that have not been translated by reliable sources should be removed. aprock ( talk) 07:04, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
(od) Generally, this is why we don't do court reporting. We're not designed for this level of case-tracking. Encyclopedia... what can we say for sure, what will be the relevant level of detail in a few months or years? If we're outside of either of those, it's ok to just let the sources hash it out for a while. Ocaasi ( talk) 09:30, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I would like to add a new section as follows (with additional sources linking Karl Rove to the Swedish Prime Minister and better direct linkage of the material to this affair).
The telegrams published by WikiLeaks show that the U.S. considers the entire world to be its security zone, but that Sweden is of key importance to the U.S. efforts to prepare for future cyber-warfare, classified documents released by Wikileaks show. Documents reviewed by the Dagens Nyheter daily show on 2nd Jan 2010 show that Americans have been identifying important infrastructure throughout the world. Deputy US Ambassador to Sweden Robert Silverman, was asked to find out what was worthy of protection and should be added to America's secret list of core infrastructure. [7]
Assuming I can write this up better, I would expect to place it in this Assange biography, not in the Wikileaks section. Your thoughts please.
Templar98 (
talk)
11:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC) =Banned User
I don't believe the assignation of "journalist" in the opening sentence is supported by the given citations. The only possible statement based on those sources is "Julian Assange is a journalist, according to one columnist in the Spectator, and was given an award for journalism by Amnesty International (which is a human rights group, not an acknowledged arbiter of what is or is not journalism."
Because this is a contentious issue (The US could conceivably have more trouble prosecuting him if he is a journalist), with arguments on both sides, I think the only good faith mentioning of this would acknowledge the arguments and actors on both sides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.123.101 ( talk) 08:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
So much for
Be polite Assume good faith Avoid personal attacks Be welcoming
right HiLo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.123.101 ( talk) 03:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The lead paragraph of this entry does seem to be an attempt at polishing the apple. Assange is primarily a hacker, and his main role in recent years has been as a distributor of stolen documents. This article makes him out to be a journalist, and nothing but a journalist: "Julian Paul Assange is an Australian journalist, publisher, and Internet activist. He is the spokesperson and editor in chief for WikiLeaks, a whistleblower website and conduit for news leaks. He has lived in several countries, and has made occasional public appearances to speak about freedom of the press, censorship, and investigative journalism."
That description clearly follows the (current) attempts by Assange and WikiLeaks to cast themselves as journalists (an attempt that has been ratcheted up in recent weeks to try to avoid prosecution in the U.S.), but calling yourself something, over and over, doesn't make it verifiable.
The bottom line: It's disputed whether or not he is a journalist. That should be noted. And whether one accepts that label or not, it's not all that he is. The article needs a more balanced, non-POV opening.
See also the description later in the article that he engaged in hacking in his youth, but no more. A laughable description for one who created a port scanner still in use today, and the rubberhose application for protecting hackers. 75.216.156.127 ( talk) 05:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
You've missed the point. If you were going to pick one word to describe Assange, computer programmer, computer programming wizard, expert in encryption -- you would have to include one of these, right? See for example this Reuters profile: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6BB1LG20101213?pageNumber=2.
Yet the Wikipedia article on him begins with a full paragraph about him as a journalist.
One can make a case that Assange is a journalist, yes. And one can make a case that he is not. It is in dispute. It is at the heart of the dispute about him, and is an issue that may be tested in a U.S. court.
One has to ask why the Wikipedia article does not (also?) begin with something about him as a computer programmer, expert in encryption, and leaker of (stolen? leaked? people disagree on the adjective) documents. Why? Because the article has an overriding POV, one that favors Assange and his politics, and that chooses to endorse his story line about himself: that he is a journalist. (Again, maybe he is, and may be isn't. This is in dispute.)
So you could ask the question: Why does the article begin with a paragraph only about journalism? Or turn the question around: Why is no mention made of him, in the sumamry paragraph, as a computer programmer, (former) hacker, etc.? 75.216.156.127 ( talk) 06:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but Assange described himself as WikiLeaks' first coder. Coding/hacking/encryption are at the heart of who he is, and what he and WikiLeaks do.
There are two points here: To describe him as a journalist, without allowing for the fact that this is in dispute, is clearly POV. And to leave out his hacker background is also POV -- it's part of the attempt, in his defense, to cast him as a journalist.
Take a step back, read this first paragraph, and see if it sums up Assange. No, it attempts to make a case for Assange, which is not the role of Wikipedia, however sympathetic editors may be to him and his efforts at regime change. (See the Wikileaks founding document for his description of the purpose of WikiLeaks. Nothing there about journalism, but a lot about regime change.) At a minimum, Assange is someone who has now come to call what he does journalism. 75.216.156.127 ( talk) 06:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
What do the sources say? Precisely the right question. They describe him first as a computer programmer and a leaker of documents, not as a journalist. Why? Because the sources do not take sides on the question. See for example this Reuters profile: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6BB1LG20101213?pageNumber=2. 75.200.176.168 ( talk) 04:22, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
AndyTheGump, you say that I "seem" not to like the term journalist. No, I'm saying that the term is in dispute. It's perfectly accurate for this entry to say that he refers to himself as a journalist. But the entry should not swallow that description without pointing out that it's in dispute.
It is in dispute. As the New York Times editor, Bill Keller, was quoted recently, he may be a journalist, but he's not my kind of journalist. Note the "may be": It is in dispute. (Why is the Keller quotation not in this biography?)
I don't know whether he's a journalist or not. I don't take a position one way or another. I do see in the sources that Assange describes himself as a journalist, and has increasingly done so, as a tactic to protect himself and WikiLeaks from attacks, legal and otherwise. This is part of the story of WikiLeaks.
I hope now you see my point. I'm pointing out that it is in dispute whether or not Assange is a journalist, but the Wikipedia biography of him accepts that description without question. I am not saying that the word journalist should not be used. I am not saying that he is not a journalist. I am not "seeming" not to like the word journalist when attached to him. I am saying that it is in dispute, and that this dispute should be reflected clearly upon first reference to him as a journalist. Otherwise, as written, this article campaigns for Assange, expresses a POV for Assange, by accepting without question his (recent, increasing) description of himself as a journalist.
It's also clear that Assange (from many sources) is known primarily as a programmer/hacker, and that factor is left out of the biography lead entirely. It takes pains to say he was a hacker in his youth, though if so his youth extended well into his 30s. Why is his programming/hacking not mentioned in the top of this biography at all? Because it take's a pro-Assange POV, in which he now wants to be known only as a journalist, for reasons of legality and reputation.[Special:Contributions/75.200.176.168|75.200.176.168]] ( talk) 16:50, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
I assume good faith on your part, but why do you duck the two main issues: Why does this bio unquestionably accept the claim that he's a journalist, and why does it downplay his activity as a hacker/programmer?
You chose to argue with my mention of an incentive for him to call himself a journalist. There is, undoubtedly, an incentive. But whether or not you accept that, you're still left with two issues you've chosen not to address:
Why does this bio unquestionably accept the claim that he's a journalist, and why does it downplay his activity as a hacker/programmer? I suggest that to accept that claim without question, and to downplay his hacking, is an expression of a pro-Assange POV. 75.200.176.168 ( talk) 17:37, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Most profiles of Assange do not even use the word journalist.
From the New Yorker profile, a page cited by the Wikipedia biography: "Assange is an international trafficker, of sorts. He and his colleagues collect documents and imagery that governments and other institutions regard as confidential and publish them on a Web site called WikiLeaks.org." http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_khatchadourian?currentPage=all
The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press forbids its staff to use WikiLeaks as a source, and its director says its efforts will be used against actual journalists: http://motherjones.com/print/52751.
On and on: Most of the profiles cited by the Wikipedia bio of Assange do not refer to him as a journalist. They call him a hacker, a programmer, a trafficker in purloined and leaked documents. Yet that's the word chosen by the Wikipedia biography.
Again, I'm not trying to make a case that he is not a journalist. He may be. But if so, he is not *only* a journalist. 75.200.201.250 ( talk) 03:44, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
I've just cited sources, and you dismiss them? I just went through the sources footnoted on this particular article. Assange is repeatedly described as a programmer, an activist -- rarely as a journalist. 76.127.21.51 ( talk) 03:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
AndyTheGump, you're misstating my point. You are saying that his recent activities are journalism, and his programming/hacking happened long ago. This misses the point that I'm making, and that the sources make.
I'll try again: His recent activities, the ones that make him notable now, the releases of leaked or stolen documents and e-mails, may or may not be journalism. This activity may or may not be hacking. That is in dispute. Some would characterize them as programming/hacking/encryption activities (theft using computer expertise is at the heart of WikiLeaks). Some would characterize them as journalism. This is precisely an issue that is likely to be argued in court if Assange is charged by the U.S.
See this New York Times article describing U.S. plans to charge Assange with conspiracy for inviting the theft of government documents:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/16wiki.html.
Again, I'm not saying he's a hacker. I'm not saying he's not a journalist. I'm not saying he's an activist, though many of his public statements declare an activist bent. What the sources say is that these characterizations are in dispute.
Do you see? It is in dispute whether or not his activities are journalism. Some sources describe them that way. Most sources describe them as an extension of the hacking culture.
Now, my point: Though it is in dispute, this Wikipedia biography doesn't take note of this dispute at all. Instead, it accepts as a fact that Assange's activities with WikiLeaks are journalism. It describes Assange, right off the bat, as a journalist.
In other words, this article takes sides in a dispute. This is the essence of POV.
Note that the WikiLeaks article here on Wikipedia itself doesn't make this mistake. Instead, in a neutral way, it describes WikiLeaks by what it does. On the other hand, this Assange article describes him as a journalist, without noting that this description is in dispute.
Why not note, on first reference, that this is in dispute? Why accept the characterization as journalist, when most of the sources describe him as a programmer/activist? Why not state, in a neutral way, what he does, as the WikiLeaks article does? 76.127.21.51 ( talk) 22:31, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
See for example this article today by the tech columnist on msnbc.com, whose word for Assange is "hacktivist." You say, his programming activities have nothing to do with his notability. No, his programming activities have everything to do with the current activities: hacking, programming, encryption -- these are among the skills Assange is bringing to bear in his current activities. You've decided that hacking was what he did before, and journalism is what he does now. Many of the sources on this article itself see it differently.
The msnbc.com tech article: http://networkedblogs.com/clpd7 "Until now, virtually all hacktivist efforts landed in two camps: online graffiti, such as Web page defacement, or online protests, such as denial of service attacks. The spreading of previously non-public information, against a government’s will, is a new form of attack, and one that can’t be stopped by added improved packet filtering. ... One lesser-discussed aspect of the WikiLeaks release of U.S. diplomatic cables is Assange’s hacker background, and the architecture of the WikiLeaks distribution system."
See: WikiLeaks = attack. Hacking. Maybe it's journalism, too, but the Wikipedia article defines it only as journalism, saying he did hacking in the distant past. This is POV. 68.212.245.59 ( talk) 06:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
The "geek blogger" you seek to diminish is Bob Sullivan, who is the consumer and tech columnist for msnbc.com, the No. 1 news website.
Again, let me say: Most of the sources cited on this Wikipedia biography of Julian Assange refer to him as a programmer/encryption expert, as a hacker, as a promoter of hacking by others, and most of all as an activist, not as a journalist. Some call him a journalist. Again, it is in dispute, most of the sources cited in this article do not describe him as a journalist, and this article should reflect that, from the start, instead of beginning by taking sides on the question. It's perfectly neutral to say that he refers to himself as a journalist. But to call him a journalist, without noting that it is in dispute, is to express a point of view. 68.212.245.59 ( talk) 03:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Another source: Today's Columbia Journalism Review, in an article asking whether WikiLeaks will continue to work with news organizations. Note the distinction: There is WikiLeaks, and there are news organizations. http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_wikileaks_equation.php?page=all. 75.200.86.175 ( talk) 21:23, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
AndyTheGump: What does your statement mean? "If you persist in this off-topic debate, I may seek advice as to whether your edits may be liable to be deleted as irrelevant to the article." First, the user doesn't seem to have edited the article, so how could you delete his or her edits. Second, why would the user making a point in the talk page disqualify him from editing the article? Third, and most important, the user is making a straightforward point: Most of the sources on the Assange article do not identify Assange as a journalist, but as an advocate; this is particularly true of sources that are what one would call reliable sources, such as news organizations, both in the United States and Europe. Nevertheless, the article itself identifies Assange first as a journalist. It's reasonable to ask, why is that? Why not identify him as an activist first? Why not note in the article that it is in question whether or not he is a journalist. It's unclear why you are afraid of entertaining this possibility in editing the article. Whenever the user raises this point, you reply with off-topic arguments, accuse him of persisting in an argument (if you don't want to continue the argument, don't continue it), and then when you are unable to persuade, you threaten to ban him from editing? This is bizarre indeed. Instead, why not look at the sources on the article, the ones that make the point the user is making: Assange is identified first by most sources as an activist, but first by Wikipedia as a journalist. Extremely hot ( talk) 05:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
No, the poster has not once argued that we should not be calling Assange a journalist. In fact, he repeatedly has noted that he is not saying that. Why are you arguing against something he hasn't said. The poster has said that we should not be *first* calling Assange a journalist, that most of the sources cited on this article identify him as aan activist, and that we also should *first* identify him as an activist, instead of blindly accepting the (in dispute) claim that he is a journalist. It appears that you believe that when he says it is in dispute, you think he's saying that it should not be included. No, he is saying that it is in dispute, and the article should so indicate. Can you not discuss this valid point of editing without resorting to tantrums and false claims? (And why would it matter in the least if he is anon?) As for sources, the poster repeatedly makes the point that the sources already listed on the article cite Assange as an activist; this is the standard first reference in articles, including those referred to here. In reply, each time, you lecture about sources and original research -- no, he's saying the sources we already have references to call Assange an activist first. Why do you ignore this, resorting to arguments such as, let's delete his comments from this talk page, or let's close the discussion because it's original research. No, he's saying, look at the references already on the page.
Other editors, is the point not clearly made: Assange is identified in most of the sources already cited as an activist, and the question of whether or not he's a journalist is in dispute. This biography should indicate that it is in dispute. Could this be discussed on the merits? Extremely hot ( talk) 05:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I think KathaLu has hit the nail on the head above, highlighting that it's clear that some posters don't want Assange to be able to claim to be a journalist, in the (probably) incorrect hope that if he is not a journalist he is more likely to be able to be prosecuted in the USA. Such a position is obviously a POV one and was definitely discernible. It probably influenced my approach to discussing this matter earlier in this now epic section. I think what attracted me to the discussion was the intensity of some of those who wanted to tell us he isn't a journalist. Lots of personal feelings on display here. If KathaLu is correct, it doesn't matter, so let's all stop stressing about it. Please. HiLo48 ( talk) 23:16, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
No, no one in this discussion has claimed that Assange is not a journalist. Not one. What has been claimed is that whether or not Assange is a journalist, or is primarily a journalist, is in dispute. Is in dispute. And the entry should so reflect. (Is this distinction really so difficult to understand? Saying that people disagree about something is not the same as taking one side or the other of the question.) The issue is discussed straight on in a new source, the extensive profile of Assange in Vanity Fair, which describes his activism, and draws distinctions between his actions and those of journalists. A sample quotation: "I'm too busy. I have two wars I have to stop." Note also the editor of the Guardian, which has cooperated with WikiLeaks, describing Assange and his subordinates as "a bunch of anarchists in hiding." In other words, whether he is a journalist, or primarily a journalist, is in dispute. Reference: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/02/the-guardian-201102?currentPage=all. Extremely hot ( talk) 04:40, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that the problem here is that there's no clear way of defining if someone is a journalist or not. I could start a wordpress account tomorrow, proclaim myself as a journalist, and no-one can really say any different. You can certainly do a university course in journalism, receive accreditation, and all sorts of other academic fluff. But all that is essentially meaningless when it comes to the question 'is x a journalist?'. This is something that is inevitable in a world where methods of spreading information are so very drastically different to what they were even ten years ago. Everyone with a blog is a journalist. Everyone who edits wikipedia is a self-proclaimed academic and historian. Everyone who comments on an article for sale on Amazon is a reviewer. Whilst my observation regarding this situation is not hugely productive in itself with regards to this article, it is part of a bigger picture, which does have impact on the article. If I had a dime for every time someone on a talk page proclaimed 'yes, but it's the policies which are wrong!', I'd be rich. But in trying to source if Assange 'is a journalist or not', how much the landscape has changed becomes very, very apparent. My instinct is to leave the whole drama play out, and we can make a really good article afterwards. In the meantime, we should be happy with information which doesn't violate WP:BLP. Wikipedia is not paper. We can allow a bit of bloat now, as long as that bloat is balanced. We can pare it down later. Kaini ( talk) 04:58, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
"Business McCarthyism" is in no way an appropriate header; it is pointy and of little descriptive value. We choose headers to be neutral and adequately cover the section contents. -- Errant ( chat!) 10:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
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There has just been a discussion over Claes Borgström, a legal representative of the alleged victims of the supposed sexual assault, I think this came up before, but the article as it stood recently read "Claes Borgström", who represents the two women...". An edit changed this to read "Lawyer Claes Borgström, former Equality Ombudsman and current Social Democratic gender equality spokesperson who is representing the two women...". The editor, Victor Falk, says that this "is a statement of fact providing context", whereas I'm inclined to think it is putting undue weight on the political affiliations and past history of a legal representative, and tending to suggest that these may be somehow significant. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing to suggest that the Swedish legal system prevents people from choosing their own representatives as they see fit, and nor will these necessarily have any direct relevance for the proceedings. I feel that unless we can find external reliable sources which see this issue of significance, we should exclude details about minor participants in this, and confine our article to discussing the subject himself. I'd like to see what others think? AndyTheGrump ( talk) 06:39, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
It's not clear to me why any lawyers need to be named in this article at this point. aprock ( talk) 07:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
All this is very interesting, but without some reliable secondary source (in English per WP:BLP, WP:NONENG), there appears to be no reason for listing the lawyers at this time. aprock ( talk) 18:06, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm from Germany. In the 1960s the German magazine "Der Spiegel" has published an article about the German army with classified material. As a consequence the publisher Rudolf Augstein and some other people have been arrested by the police, the magazine was acccused of treason and the Spiegel office was occupied by the police. The Federal Constitutional Court of Germany decided, that it is legal to publish information like this in Germany.
I see some parallels to Julian Assanges arrestion.
I would like to insert a link to this Spiegel scandal which is very common here in Germany. Do you aggree? -- Muggel78 ( talk) 10:02, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I have read in many places that Assange has an extra digit on one of his hands. Sources differ as to which hand and I have never seen any pictures of his hands. Can anyone confirm this story? 155.136.80.37 ( talk) 14:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone think there is a need to add such a list? I am not sure if he has written books (apart from the one just announced) but I actually found one article he wrote 4 years ago [1]. This led me to see that he wrote another article for the same organization which is already referenced here [2] although the reference actually doesn't address the article but the little "who is he" blurb at the bottom of said article. I would imagine he has written more? If such would these be notable enough to be added as a list of publications at the bottom? I am not sure at the guidelines regarding this but I will try and find cases where I have seen this in other wiki articles about journalists and hence how I was reminded in this case. Cheers! Calaka ( talk) 16:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
The article does not say very much about Assange's political views. What aspects of this should be covered?-- Nowa ( talk) 16:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I hope I am doing this right by editing the comment here.
Anyway, AlJazeera interviewed Julian Assange where he clarifies just that. He mentions that he is not opposed to governements and organization having secrets but the problem being when they become corrupt and try to hide unlawful and unethical behaviour, thats what where he opposes secrecy and sees a need for whistleblowers. He also clearly denies being an anarchist and mentions the need for governement and hirarchical structures in governement and organizations/institutions but the need for transparency where democratic processes benefit from information and/or to uncover unethical behaviour. Andythegrump, there is a source where J. Assange first hand is heard explaining just that- Source: http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/frostovertheworld/2010/12/201012228384924314.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.58.148.172 ( talk) 16:14, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm not too crazy about this new 'autodidact' business. For those who haven't scoured SAT vocab guides, it means 'self-taught'. I don't see how it's relevant, really; we don't care if New York Times writers went to journalism school or just figured it out by themselves. I'd like to take it out and just leave 'journalist', if there's no objection. Ocaasi ( talk) 13:06, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
A very nicely formatted table has been added which adds anyone who every called for Assange's head on a platter. Problem is, this deserves one very short paragraph at best: Assange's activities have been described as terrorism by some in the media and several figures, including A, B, and C, have gone so far as to call for his execution. Done. That table is going to have to go, sadly, for the work that went into it. Ocaasi ( talk) 12:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
A question. Was this 'new' section copied from an earlier version of the article, or from somewhere else? Much of the phrasing seems to match exactly that found on other websites, though they look like mirrors or paste-jobs (without attribution by the look of it sometimes at least). If this is from an earlier version, it should have been restored properly to maintain the edit history, and if it is from somewhere else, we may have real problems... AndyTheGrump ( talk) 15:05, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
here's the most recently added version
Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mike Mullen, said that "Mr. Assange can say whatever he likes about the greater good he thinks he and his source are doing, but the truth is, they might already have on their hands the blood of some young soldier or that of an Afghan family." Assange denies this has happened, and responded by saying, "...it’s really quite fantastic that [Robert] Gates and Mullen...who have ordered assassinations every day, are trying to bring people on board to look at a speculative understanding of whether we might have blood on our hands. These two men arguably are wading in the blood from those wars."[91]
A number of commentators, including current and former US government officials, have accused Assange of terrorism. Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell has called Assange "a high-tech terrorist".[92] Former US House speaker Newt Gingrich, has been quoted as saying, "Information terrorism, which leads to people getting killed, is terrorism, and Julian Assange is engaged in terrorism. He should be treated as an enemy combatant."[93] Within the media, an editorial in the Washington Times by Jeffrey T. Kuhner said Assange should be treated "the same way as other high-value terrorist targets";[94][95] Fox News' National Security Analyst and host "K.T." McFarland has called Assange a terrorist, WikiLeaks "a terrorist organization" and has called for Bradley Manning's execution if he is found guilty of making the leaks;[96] and former Nixon aide and talk radio host G. Gordon Liddy has reportedly suggested that Assange's name be added to the "kill list" of terrorists who can be assassinated without a trial.[97]
Tom Flanagan, former campaign manager for Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, commented in November 2010 that he thought Julian Assange should be assassinated. A complaint has been filed against Flanagan, which states that Flanagan "counselled and/or incited the assassination of Julian Assange contrary to the Criminal Code of Canada," in his remarks on the CBC programme Power & Politics.[98] Flanagan has since apologised for the remarks made during the programme and claimed his intentions were never "to advocate or propose the assassination of Mr. Assange".[99]
In the right section, I think most of this is notable, though it could use a little reworking. I removed a small piece about Bradley Manning, which seems off-topic. Ocaasi ( talk) 13:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC) I think the Flanagan piece is too long and should be part of a more general paragraph about calls for death. Ocaasi ( talk) 13:46, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
If anyone wants to check the quality and accuracy of the citations, here they are. Off2riorob ( talk) 13:52, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange isn’t some well-meaning, anti-war protestor leaking documents in hopes of ending an unpopular war. He’s waging cyberwar on the United States and the global world order. Mr. Assange and his fellow hackers are terrorists and should be prosecuted as such. Off2riorob ( talk) 14:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
This and that not notable newspaper polls of users and suchlike are worthless. As the actual award isn't notable there is no long term value at all. On the 24th of December, the french newspaper Le Monde named him person of the year - so what is notable about that? I s this le monde award noteworthy, no its not, who won this fantastic thing last year? the same goes for the other recent not notable promotional so called awards , and the Postmedia Network named him the top newsmaker for the year. So what? A worthless promotional award, in a week when I remove them again you will say, oh they seems notable at the time. If these so called valuable awards are worthy of addition then show me a secondary report about it? Only primary reports with no assertion of any note. John awarded harry the John award. cited to John.org Off2riorob ( talk) 04:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Assuming that Le Monde's award isn't notable is anglophone bias. It's by far one of the largest and most well-known French newspapers. The Time runner-up and Time reader's choice both received significant external media coverage. -- 75.28.52.27 ( talk) 21:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes, presently very very newsworthy, and the Le monde award has clearly been clarified as noteworty and I am happy for that, I always appreciate worthwhile additions that will have a long term lasting educational value, the others have yet to give me that same feeling. To be honest these others shouldn't even be called awards, they are just fluff really. An award is a valued thing. If there is an insistence to add such trivial claims the title of the section needs changing or we should integrate the content into the article body, as people have a high expectation of what is a worthwhile notable award. the one you have added doesn't meet those expectations by a long margin. Off2riorob ( talk) 01:22, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Another award was announced for Julian by a Romanian national newspaper (that according to Wikipedia is no longer functioning?) [5] (english: [6], although I also did a google translation of the first [7]). Looking to see if other references referenced the above article all I managed to find is non-english websites such as [8] and [9] although based on what I read above I will not add it. Unless of course more note about the award is to be found. Calaka ( talk) 08:34, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Quite many external links were recently removed from the external links section, including:
Off2riorob suggested that we "upload it to commons or add it to the article if its added value" instead. I see no reason why we should not keep at least the TED talk and the personal interviews. Above all, is uploading to commons really an (legal) option? -- spitzl ( talk) 23:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Templar seems to have stuffed them all back in with this edit summary - "It is long past time to clean up the external links and move depreciated or nationalistically hostile links below the good sources that actually quote him" - as I said we are not a link station, we write our own article and only link to something that adds something, which of these links does templar think are nationalistically hostile ? None of them are, they are respected reports, the BBC and so on. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Per the discussion about Death Threats (see above thread), I added a new section called 'Public reception', and combined the criticism with already existing Support and Awards sections. A few small questions:
Accusing someone of being a terrorist goes far beyond "criticism". I think that subsection needs a new title - how about "Demonization"? But seriously, what was wrong with the previous title? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:26, 3 January 2011 (UTC) I suggest we drop the "Public Reaction" section, and just have "Criticism" and "Support" sections. However, one problem is you may have Wikileaks criticism blending with sex allegations criticism, which would be confusing. I think we should have these sections as subsections of the "Wikileaks" section. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:41, 3 January 2011 (UTC) I made that change, hope it's acceptable to everyone. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:56, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I note that hard facts about the case get removed while opinions are included, and I object to this. Most recent incident:
We have already this view of Assange's side in the article: "According to Assange's lawyer, Assange made repeated attempts to contact the prosecution, spending over a month in Stockholm before obtaining permission to leave the country, with the Swedish prosecution stating an interview would not be required" which is more than enough to give this particular part of "his side". It is also a distortion of major facts, btw. Attention, OR or SYNTH coming up: We had a detailed description of the events in the legal process but they were taken out. The rape case was opened on 1 September, he left on 27 September - that's barely four weeks, not five. We have only Assange's words for it that he would be held incommunicado, and in all likelihood lawyers are not allowed to give out details of the other party's statements, which is what he means when he claims that the Swedish lawyer is barred from making public statements. So please delete this again, as it is redundant, misleading in the given context, and speculation. He said a lot of things about why he did not return to Sweden for an interview in Sweden in October, as requested by the Swedish Prosecution, like having better things to do than go to random prosecutors worldwide for a chat, so either you include all these statements or none. Don't cherrypick the ones that make Sweden look bad and Assange the victim of injustice. And btw, what he was told in September was this: there is no arrest warrant on you, so you are free to travel. That's different from "we don't want you for an interview". KathaLu ( talk) 06:20, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
This addition breaks and distorts the diplomacy report and cherry pics an isolated comment from a lengthy diatribe from Palin and then has assange apparently responding to multiple comments, all king of distorting the situation imo. I suggest the Palin comment be isolated and expanded a bit to give it context, possible at the comment wherer she says he is not a journalist... 13:41, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Republican Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin has called Assange, "an anti-American operative with blood on his hands" and suggested he be hunted down like an al-Qaeda or Taliban leader.
Palin says in the full quote from the cite about assange - Palin said of Assange "He is an anti-American operative with blood on his hands. His past posting of classified documents revealed the identity of more than 100 Afghan sources to the Taliban. Why was he not pursued with the same urgency we pursue al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders?" In a post on her Facebook page, the former US Republican vice-presidential candidate wrote: "Assange is not a 'journalist', any more than the 'editor' of al-Qaeda's new English-language magazine Inspire is a 'journalist'."
Significant content sourced only to foreign language sources has been inserted. This content violates several policies.
As the content violates significant BLP related polices I reverted the addition. Another editor reinstated the content. If there is a specific concern about having this sort of content included, the most important aspect is to get reliable sources which are verifiable and high quality. Discussion welcome. aprock ( talk) 06:29, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I see the content has been reinserted without addressing the problems of sourcing (and undue). I assume that these problems will be resolved in the next day or so. If the issues aren't resolved, content sourced only to foreign language sources that have not been translated by reliable sources should be removed. aprock ( talk) 07:04, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
(od) Generally, this is why we don't do court reporting. We're not designed for this level of case-tracking. Encyclopedia... what can we say for sure, what will be the relevant level of detail in a few months or years? If we're outside of either of those, it's ok to just let the sources hash it out for a while. Ocaasi ( talk) 09:30, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I would like to add a new section as follows (with additional sources linking Karl Rove to the Swedish Prime Minister and better direct linkage of the material to this affair).
The telegrams published by WikiLeaks show that the U.S. considers the entire world to be its security zone, but that Sweden is of key importance to the U.S. efforts to prepare for future cyber-warfare, classified documents released by Wikileaks show. Documents reviewed by the Dagens Nyheter daily show on 2nd Jan 2010 show that Americans have been identifying important infrastructure throughout the world. Deputy US Ambassador to Sweden Robert Silverman, was asked to find out what was worthy of protection and should be added to America's secret list of core infrastructure. [7]
Assuming I can write this up better, I would expect to place it in this Assange biography, not in the Wikileaks section. Your thoughts please.
Templar98 (
talk)
11:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC) =Banned User
I don't believe the assignation of "journalist" in the opening sentence is supported by the given citations. The only possible statement based on those sources is "Julian Assange is a journalist, according to one columnist in the Spectator, and was given an award for journalism by Amnesty International (which is a human rights group, not an acknowledged arbiter of what is or is not journalism."
Because this is a contentious issue (The US could conceivably have more trouble prosecuting him if he is a journalist), with arguments on both sides, I think the only good faith mentioning of this would acknowledge the arguments and actors on both sides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.123.101 ( talk) 08:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
So much for
Be polite Assume good faith Avoid personal attacks Be welcoming
right HiLo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.123.101 ( talk) 03:01, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The lead paragraph of this entry does seem to be an attempt at polishing the apple. Assange is primarily a hacker, and his main role in recent years has been as a distributor of stolen documents. This article makes him out to be a journalist, and nothing but a journalist: "Julian Paul Assange is an Australian journalist, publisher, and Internet activist. He is the spokesperson and editor in chief for WikiLeaks, a whistleblower website and conduit for news leaks. He has lived in several countries, and has made occasional public appearances to speak about freedom of the press, censorship, and investigative journalism."
That description clearly follows the (current) attempts by Assange and WikiLeaks to cast themselves as journalists (an attempt that has been ratcheted up in recent weeks to try to avoid prosecution in the U.S.), but calling yourself something, over and over, doesn't make it verifiable.
The bottom line: It's disputed whether or not he is a journalist. That should be noted. And whether one accepts that label or not, it's not all that he is. The article needs a more balanced, non-POV opening.
See also the description later in the article that he engaged in hacking in his youth, but no more. A laughable description for one who created a port scanner still in use today, and the rubberhose application for protecting hackers. 75.216.156.127 ( talk) 05:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
You've missed the point. If you were going to pick one word to describe Assange, computer programmer, computer programming wizard, expert in encryption -- you would have to include one of these, right? See for example this Reuters profile: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6BB1LG20101213?pageNumber=2.
Yet the Wikipedia article on him begins with a full paragraph about him as a journalist.
One can make a case that Assange is a journalist, yes. And one can make a case that he is not. It is in dispute. It is at the heart of the dispute about him, and is an issue that may be tested in a U.S. court.
One has to ask why the Wikipedia article does not (also?) begin with something about him as a computer programmer, expert in encryption, and leaker of (stolen? leaked? people disagree on the adjective) documents. Why? Because the article has an overriding POV, one that favors Assange and his politics, and that chooses to endorse his story line about himself: that he is a journalist. (Again, maybe he is, and may be isn't. This is in dispute.)
So you could ask the question: Why does the article begin with a paragraph only about journalism? Or turn the question around: Why is no mention made of him, in the sumamry paragraph, as a computer programmer, (former) hacker, etc.? 75.216.156.127 ( talk) 06:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but Assange described himself as WikiLeaks' first coder. Coding/hacking/encryption are at the heart of who he is, and what he and WikiLeaks do.
There are two points here: To describe him as a journalist, without allowing for the fact that this is in dispute, is clearly POV. And to leave out his hacker background is also POV -- it's part of the attempt, in his defense, to cast him as a journalist.
Take a step back, read this first paragraph, and see if it sums up Assange. No, it attempts to make a case for Assange, which is not the role of Wikipedia, however sympathetic editors may be to him and his efforts at regime change. (See the Wikileaks founding document for his description of the purpose of WikiLeaks. Nothing there about journalism, but a lot about regime change.) At a minimum, Assange is someone who has now come to call what he does journalism. 75.216.156.127 ( talk) 06:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
What do the sources say? Precisely the right question. They describe him first as a computer programmer and a leaker of documents, not as a journalist. Why? Because the sources do not take sides on the question. See for example this Reuters profile: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6BB1LG20101213?pageNumber=2. 75.200.176.168 ( talk) 04:22, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
AndyTheGump, you say that I "seem" not to like the term journalist. No, I'm saying that the term is in dispute. It's perfectly accurate for this entry to say that he refers to himself as a journalist. But the entry should not swallow that description without pointing out that it's in dispute.
It is in dispute. As the New York Times editor, Bill Keller, was quoted recently, he may be a journalist, but he's not my kind of journalist. Note the "may be": It is in dispute. (Why is the Keller quotation not in this biography?)
I don't know whether he's a journalist or not. I don't take a position one way or another. I do see in the sources that Assange describes himself as a journalist, and has increasingly done so, as a tactic to protect himself and WikiLeaks from attacks, legal and otherwise. This is part of the story of WikiLeaks.
I hope now you see my point. I'm pointing out that it is in dispute whether or not Assange is a journalist, but the Wikipedia biography of him accepts that description without question. I am not saying that the word journalist should not be used. I am not saying that he is not a journalist. I am not "seeming" not to like the word journalist when attached to him. I am saying that it is in dispute, and that this dispute should be reflected clearly upon first reference to him as a journalist. Otherwise, as written, this article campaigns for Assange, expresses a POV for Assange, by accepting without question his (recent, increasing) description of himself as a journalist.
It's also clear that Assange (from many sources) is known primarily as a programmer/hacker, and that factor is left out of the biography lead entirely. It takes pains to say he was a hacker in his youth, though if so his youth extended well into his 30s. Why is his programming/hacking not mentioned in the top of this biography at all? Because it take's a pro-Assange POV, in which he now wants to be known only as a journalist, for reasons of legality and reputation.[Special:Contributions/75.200.176.168|75.200.176.168]] ( talk) 16:50, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
I assume good faith on your part, but why do you duck the two main issues: Why does this bio unquestionably accept the claim that he's a journalist, and why does it downplay his activity as a hacker/programmer?
You chose to argue with my mention of an incentive for him to call himself a journalist. There is, undoubtedly, an incentive. But whether or not you accept that, you're still left with two issues you've chosen not to address:
Why does this bio unquestionably accept the claim that he's a journalist, and why does it downplay his activity as a hacker/programmer? I suggest that to accept that claim without question, and to downplay his hacking, is an expression of a pro-Assange POV. 75.200.176.168 ( talk) 17:37, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Most profiles of Assange do not even use the word journalist.
From the New Yorker profile, a page cited by the Wikipedia biography: "Assange is an international trafficker, of sorts. He and his colleagues collect documents and imagery that governments and other institutions regard as confidential and publish them on a Web site called WikiLeaks.org." http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_khatchadourian?currentPage=all
The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press forbids its staff to use WikiLeaks as a source, and its director says its efforts will be used against actual journalists: http://motherjones.com/print/52751.
On and on: Most of the profiles cited by the Wikipedia bio of Assange do not refer to him as a journalist. They call him a hacker, a programmer, a trafficker in purloined and leaked documents. Yet that's the word chosen by the Wikipedia biography.
Again, I'm not trying to make a case that he is not a journalist. He may be. But if so, he is not *only* a journalist. 75.200.201.250 ( talk) 03:44, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
I've just cited sources, and you dismiss them? I just went through the sources footnoted on this particular article. Assange is repeatedly described as a programmer, an activist -- rarely as a journalist. 76.127.21.51 ( talk) 03:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
AndyTheGump, you're misstating my point. You are saying that his recent activities are journalism, and his programming/hacking happened long ago. This misses the point that I'm making, and that the sources make.
I'll try again: His recent activities, the ones that make him notable now, the releases of leaked or stolen documents and e-mails, may or may not be journalism. This activity may or may not be hacking. That is in dispute. Some would characterize them as programming/hacking/encryption activities (theft using computer expertise is at the heart of WikiLeaks). Some would characterize them as journalism. This is precisely an issue that is likely to be argued in court if Assange is charged by the U.S.
See this New York Times article describing U.S. plans to charge Assange with conspiracy for inviting the theft of government documents:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world/16wiki.html.
Again, I'm not saying he's a hacker. I'm not saying he's not a journalist. I'm not saying he's an activist, though many of his public statements declare an activist bent. What the sources say is that these characterizations are in dispute.
Do you see? It is in dispute whether or not his activities are journalism. Some sources describe them that way. Most sources describe them as an extension of the hacking culture.
Now, my point: Though it is in dispute, this Wikipedia biography doesn't take note of this dispute at all. Instead, it accepts as a fact that Assange's activities with WikiLeaks are journalism. It describes Assange, right off the bat, as a journalist.
In other words, this article takes sides in a dispute. This is the essence of POV.
Note that the WikiLeaks article here on Wikipedia itself doesn't make this mistake. Instead, in a neutral way, it describes WikiLeaks by what it does. On the other hand, this Assange article describes him as a journalist, without noting that this description is in dispute.
Why not note, on first reference, that this is in dispute? Why accept the characterization as journalist, when most of the sources describe him as a programmer/activist? Why not state, in a neutral way, what he does, as the WikiLeaks article does? 76.127.21.51 ( talk) 22:31, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
See for example this article today by the tech columnist on msnbc.com, whose word for Assange is "hacktivist." You say, his programming activities have nothing to do with his notability. No, his programming activities have everything to do with the current activities: hacking, programming, encryption -- these are among the skills Assange is bringing to bear in his current activities. You've decided that hacking was what he did before, and journalism is what he does now. Many of the sources on this article itself see it differently.
The msnbc.com tech article: http://networkedblogs.com/clpd7 "Until now, virtually all hacktivist efforts landed in two camps: online graffiti, such as Web page defacement, or online protests, such as denial of service attacks. The spreading of previously non-public information, against a government’s will, is a new form of attack, and one that can’t be stopped by added improved packet filtering. ... One lesser-discussed aspect of the WikiLeaks release of U.S. diplomatic cables is Assange’s hacker background, and the architecture of the WikiLeaks distribution system."
See: WikiLeaks = attack. Hacking. Maybe it's journalism, too, but the Wikipedia article defines it only as journalism, saying he did hacking in the distant past. This is POV. 68.212.245.59 ( talk) 06:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
The "geek blogger" you seek to diminish is Bob Sullivan, who is the consumer and tech columnist for msnbc.com, the No. 1 news website.
Again, let me say: Most of the sources cited on this Wikipedia biography of Julian Assange refer to him as a programmer/encryption expert, as a hacker, as a promoter of hacking by others, and most of all as an activist, not as a journalist. Some call him a journalist. Again, it is in dispute, most of the sources cited in this article do not describe him as a journalist, and this article should reflect that, from the start, instead of beginning by taking sides on the question. It's perfectly neutral to say that he refers to himself as a journalist. But to call him a journalist, without noting that it is in dispute, is to express a point of view. 68.212.245.59 ( talk) 03:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Another source: Today's Columbia Journalism Review, in an article asking whether WikiLeaks will continue to work with news organizations. Note the distinction: There is WikiLeaks, and there are news organizations. http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_wikileaks_equation.php?page=all. 75.200.86.175 ( talk) 21:23, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
AndyTheGump: What does your statement mean? "If you persist in this off-topic debate, I may seek advice as to whether your edits may be liable to be deleted as irrelevant to the article." First, the user doesn't seem to have edited the article, so how could you delete his or her edits. Second, why would the user making a point in the talk page disqualify him from editing the article? Third, and most important, the user is making a straightforward point: Most of the sources on the Assange article do not identify Assange as a journalist, but as an advocate; this is particularly true of sources that are what one would call reliable sources, such as news organizations, both in the United States and Europe. Nevertheless, the article itself identifies Assange first as a journalist. It's reasonable to ask, why is that? Why not identify him as an activist first? Why not note in the article that it is in question whether or not he is a journalist. It's unclear why you are afraid of entertaining this possibility in editing the article. Whenever the user raises this point, you reply with off-topic arguments, accuse him of persisting in an argument (if you don't want to continue the argument, don't continue it), and then when you are unable to persuade, you threaten to ban him from editing? This is bizarre indeed. Instead, why not look at the sources on the article, the ones that make the point the user is making: Assange is identified first by most sources as an activist, but first by Wikipedia as a journalist. Extremely hot ( talk) 05:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
No, the poster has not once argued that we should not be calling Assange a journalist. In fact, he repeatedly has noted that he is not saying that. Why are you arguing against something he hasn't said. The poster has said that we should not be *first* calling Assange a journalist, that most of the sources cited on this article identify him as aan activist, and that we also should *first* identify him as an activist, instead of blindly accepting the (in dispute) claim that he is a journalist. It appears that you believe that when he says it is in dispute, you think he's saying that it should not be included. No, he is saying that it is in dispute, and the article should so indicate. Can you not discuss this valid point of editing without resorting to tantrums and false claims? (And why would it matter in the least if he is anon?) As for sources, the poster repeatedly makes the point that the sources already listed on the article cite Assange as an activist; this is the standard first reference in articles, including those referred to here. In reply, each time, you lecture about sources and original research -- no, he's saying the sources we already have references to call Assange an activist first. Why do you ignore this, resorting to arguments such as, let's delete his comments from this talk page, or let's close the discussion because it's original research. No, he's saying, look at the references already on the page.
Other editors, is the point not clearly made: Assange is identified in most of the sources already cited as an activist, and the question of whether or not he's a journalist is in dispute. This biography should indicate that it is in dispute. Could this be discussed on the merits? Extremely hot ( talk) 05:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I think KathaLu has hit the nail on the head above, highlighting that it's clear that some posters don't want Assange to be able to claim to be a journalist, in the (probably) incorrect hope that if he is not a journalist he is more likely to be able to be prosecuted in the USA. Such a position is obviously a POV one and was definitely discernible. It probably influenced my approach to discussing this matter earlier in this now epic section. I think what attracted me to the discussion was the intensity of some of those who wanted to tell us he isn't a journalist. Lots of personal feelings on display here. If KathaLu is correct, it doesn't matter, so let's all stop stressing about it. Please. HiLo48 ( talk) 23:16, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
No, no one in this discussion has claimed that Assange is not a journalist. Not one. What has been claimed is that whether or not Assange is a journalist, or is primarily a journalist, is in dispute. Is in dispute. And the entry should so reflect. (Is this distinction really so difficult to understand? Saying that people disagree about something is not the same as taking one side or the other of the question.) The issue is discussed straight on in a new source, the extensive profile of Assange in Vanity Fair, which describes his activism, and draws distinctions between his actions and those of journalists. A sample quotation: "I'm too busy. I have two wars I have to stop." Note also the editor of the Guardian, which has cooperated with WikiLeaks, describing Assange and his subordinates as "a bunch of anarchists in hiding." In other words, whether he is a journalist, or primarily a journalist, is in dispute. Reference: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/02/the-guardian-201102?currentPage=all. Extremely hot ( talk) 04:40, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that the problem here is that there's no clear way of defining if someone is a journalist or not. I could start a wordpress account tomorrow, proclaim myself as a journalist, and no-one can really say any different. You can certainly do a university course in journalism, receive accreditation, and all sorts of other academic fluff. But all that is essentially meaningless when it comes to the question 'is x a journalist?'. This is something that is inevitable in a world where methods of spreading information are so very drastically different to what they were even ten years ago. Everyone with a blog is a journalist. Everyone who edits wikipedia is a self-proclaimed academic and historian. Everyone who comments on an article for sale on Amazon is a reviewer. Whilst my observation regarding this situation is not hugely productive in itself with regards to this article, it is part of a bigger picture, which does have impact on the article. If I had a dime for every time someone on a talk page proclaimed 'yes, but it's the policies which are wrong!', I'd be rich. But in trying to source if Assange 'is a journalist or not', how much the landscape has changed becomes very, very apparent. My instinct is to leave the whole drama play out, and we can make a really good article afterwards. In the meantime, we should be happy with information which doesn't violate WP:BLP. Wikipedia is not paper. We can allow a bit of bloat now, as long as that bloat is balanced. We can pare it down later. Kaini ( talk) 04:58, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
"Business McCarthyism" is in no way an appropriate header; it is pointy and of little descriptive value. We choose headers to be neutral and adequately cover the section contents. -- Errant ( chat!) 10:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
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