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Yes, we can't have everyone, but the current criteria are just stupid. It excludes Eliza Dushku who played a major supporting character (Faith) in Buffy and Angel, and was the lead in Dollhouse, since she played the same role in two of the productions. It includes Carlos Jacott and Jonathan M. Woodward who both played bit parts or supporting roles in three episodes, each in a different series. Andy Umberger was at least recurring, albeit on a near-bit part level, in Buffy.
Suggestion: Change the criteria to something like "starring/main cast, recurring or supporting roles in three or more Whedon productions". The whole "different roles" thing doesn't exactly show off who Joss's favorites are, which is sort of the point of the table. 130.239.26.87 ( talk) 16:19, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Frequent Casting currently says it is for actors who have played at least two different roles in the Joss Whedon projects. So I can’t believe you’re missing Adam Baldwin and Gina Torres. Both of them were in Angel, Firefly, and Serenity. Minicarmen ( talk) 06:26, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
@Schazjmd Trying to reach consensus on this because I do think it belongs in the harassment timeline. Proposed edit:
“No, we had no, no complaints or no reports of inappropriate behavior,”. [1] Fisher (who wasn't on The Nevers) speculating that it was connected to the investigation doesn't make it connected, and I think we need reliable, independent sources making that connection before we do it in the article. Schazjmd (talk) 14:58, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
References
References
"We were already planning, as you saw, to not say "From Joss Whedon" or "the director of [Avengers]." It hasn't really affected the campaign."(Headlines are not WP:RS, we ignore that part of sources.) I think we should keep the one sentence in the projects section also. Schazjmd (talk) 23:14, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I have edited the introduction to exclude names of people who have not explicitly accused Whedon of "workplace harassment"; I did this because of this policy: WP:BLPREMOVE. We have to be careful to remain neutral and ensure verifiable evidence is included elsewhere in the article (if not in the lede). I removed reference to the enquiry because it no longer seems important enough for this section. However, please discuss here and wait for consensus before editing this section to include additional names (unless new information arises).
Cheers, AussieWikiDan ( talk) 15:02, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
@AussieWikiDan Benson has, in fact, accused him explicitly, writing that he created a "toxic environment." So has Momoa, who said Whedon had treated him in a "shitty way" and "serious stuff went down." This is discussed in the "workplace harassment" section. Re the second line: IMO the support of co-stars is not important enough for the lede, but WarnerMedia's punishment is. I created that line in the lede yesterday, you edited it, I reverted it, suggesting we discuss it on the talk page. You have now reverted it back to your version, engaging in edit warring. Gershonmk ( talk) 15:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Seems to be that the substantial paragraph further down in the article is enough. Doesn't seem necessary to be in the lead. Govvy ( talk) 11:03, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
https://screenrant.com/buffy-vampire-slayer-james-marsters-spike-support-whedon-accusers/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gershonmk ( talk • contribs) 04:14, 14 February 2021 (UTC) James Marsters comes forward in support of the Buffy Cast in the Joss Whedon allegations. 2601:640:C600:3C20:F8DA:835F:1501:9947 ( talk) 04:00, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
https://people.com/tv/james-marsters-heartbroken-allegations-buffy-creator-joss-whedon/
Here is more on James Marsters who is coming in support of the Buffy Cast after the allegations came out. 2601:640:C600:3C20:8C19:83D1:113B:95B2 ( talk) 23:40, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
More names come out on the Misconduct allegations on Whedon 2601:640:C600:3C20:9481:5C49:ACA4:751D ( talk) 18:00, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Michael Drew: I don't think that belongs in the political views section! Gershonmk ( talk) 00:11, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Why is Grace Randolph being used as a citation. Most of what she says is lies for clicks. She's about has credible as you're average blogger which is too say she's hardly credible. Mention of Randolph should be removed, if this workplace bullying controversy is too be taken seriously by viewers of wikipedia, only credible journalists should be added. No CBM person, Youtuber or blogger or sites like screenrant. Hpdh4 ( talk) 14:52, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Yes, but when Gal Gadot mentions her issues with Joss Whedon she does not mention any specifics but she made it clear that she did not film any of the reshoots with the rest of the cast, so the claim that Joss Whedon tried to force Gal Gadot to film the scene with Ezra Miller, and used a body double when she refused is most likely false. "Although she declined to elaborate further, Gadot acknowledged she had her own “experience” with the director, which was resolved to her satisfaction. “I’m happy for Ray to go out and speak his truth,” says Gadot. “I wasn’t there with the guys when they shot with Joss Whedon — I had my own experience with [him], which wasn’t the best one, but I took care of it there and when it happened. I took it to the higher-ups and they took care of it. But I’m happy for Ray to go up and say his truth.”" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.141.177.42 ( talk) 22:11, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
With regard to this edit, I do want to clarify that "gender dysphoria" is just kind of a fancy label given to someone wanting to be another gender. The cited interview quotes him saying, "I literally grew up wishing that I were a woman." This is simply put as him having had gender dysphoria in childhood. The following sentence clarifies that this is not just a throwaway line but something he has expressed repeatedly to "many women". It doesn't necessarily imply anything about him now but strikes me as relevant to his interests in writing strong female characters throughout his career as a filmmaker. If this is problematic for biographies of living persons due to the potential politicization of that detail, I understand its being withheld but do think it's notable in a way that the dismissive edit removing it is erroneous for not recognizing. -- OGoncho ( talk) 18:37, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm not terribly well-informed on the subject, but in a number of talks and descriptions I've read, he's one of those "all-talk-pro-bite" "feminists", where he speaks in favour of women and then.. well, doesn't behave very well. This, I've been informed, is a somewhat common occurrence, ie. that bad men use feminism to justify and/or hide their abusive nature.
Now, I don't actually follow hollywood stuff, or feminism stuff, or.. well, anything related stuff. But given how often I've heard about his misbehaviour, and how out-spoken he is, I reckon that some of you who follow all that hollywood stuff might want to make a bigger emphasis on it, PROVIDED that it's actual factual and can be backed up by reliable sources. Though whatever is considered a reliable source for hollywood wrongdoing other than court cases, I've no idea.
Signed, I'm not sober enough to post, but I'm too unsober to be reasonable. 31.209.219.230 ( talk) 23:32, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
I looked at the page for Dan Schneider who is making a ton of headlines for the toxic workplace environment he created at Nickelodeon. [2] Multiple people have said Whedon’s workplace environment was also pretty toxic. Should we mention it at the top of the article? And1987 ( talk) 00:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Joss Whedon article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Joss Whedon was one of the Media and drama good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Yes, we can't have everyone, but the current criteria are just stupid. It excludes Eliza Dushku who played a major supporting character (Faith) in Buffy and Angel, and was the lead in Dollhouse, since she played the same role in two of the productions. It includes Carlos Jacott and Jonathan M. Woodward who both played bit parts or supporting roles in three episodes, each in a different series. Andy Umberger was at least recurring, albeit on a near-bit part level, in Buffy.
Suggestion: Change the criteria to something like "starring/main cast, recurring or supporting roles in three or more Whedon productions". The whole "different roles" thing doesn't exactly show off who Joss's favorites are, which is sort of the point of the table. 130.239.26.87 ( talk) 16:19, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Frequent Casting currently says it is for actors who have played at least two different roles in the Joss Whedon projects. So I can’t believe you’re missing Adam Baldwin and Gina Torres. Both of them were in Angel, Firefly, and Serenity. Minicarmen ( talk) 06:26, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
@Schazjmd Trying to reach consensus on this because I do think it belongs in the harassment timeline. Proposed edit:
“No, we had no, no complaints or no reports of inappropriate behavior,”. [1] Fisher (who wasn't on The Nevers) speculating that it was connected to the investigation doesn't make it connected, and I think we need reliable, independent sources making that connection before we do it in the article. Schazjmd (talk) 14:58, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
References
References
"We were already planning, as you saw, to not say "From Joss Whedon" or "the director of [Avengers]." It hasn't really affected the campaign."(Headlines are not WP:RS, we ignore that part of sources.) I think we should keep the one sentence in the projects section also. Schazjmd (talk) 23:14, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I have edited the introduction to exclude names of people who have not explicitly accused Whedon of "workplace harassment"; I did this because of this policy: WP:BLPREMOVE. We have to be careful to remain neutral and ensure verifiable evidence is included elsewhere in the article (if not in the lede). I removed reference to the enquiry because it no longer seems important enough for this section. However, please discuss here and wait for consensus before editing this section to include additional names (unless new information arises).
Cheers, AussieWikiDan ( talk) 15:02, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
@AussieWikiDan Benson has, in fact, accused him explicitly, writing that he created a "toxic environment." So has Momoa, who said Whedon had treated him in a "shitty way" and "serious stuff went down." This is discussed in the "workplace harassment" section. Re the second line: IMO the support of co-stars is not important enough for the lede, but WarnerMedia's punishment is. I created that line in the lede yesterday, you edited it, I reverted it, suggesting we discuss it on the talk page. You have now reverted it back to your version, engaging in edit warring. Gershonmk ( talk) 15:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Seems to be that the substantial paragraph further down in the article is enough. Doesn't seem necessary to be in the lead. Govvy ( talk) 11:03, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
https://screenrant.com/buffy-vampire-slayer-james-marsters-spike-support-whedon-accusers/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gershonmk ( talk • contribs) 04:14, 14 February 2021 (UTC) James Marsters comes forward in support of the Buffy Cast in the Joss Whedon allegations. 2601:640:C600:3C20:F8DA:835F:1501:9947 ( talk) 04:00, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
https://people.com/tv/james-marsters-heartbroken-allegations-buffy-creator-joss-whedon/
Here is more on James Marsters who is coming in support of the Buffy Cast after the allegations came out. 2601:640:C600:3C20:8C19:83D1:113B:95B2 ( talk) 23:40, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
More names come out on the Misconduct allegations on Whedon 2601:640:C600:3C20:9481:5C49:ACA4:751D ( talk) 18:00, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Michael Drew: I don't think that belongs in the political views section! Gershonmk ( talk) 00:11, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Why is Grace Randolph being used as a citation. Most of what she says is lies for clicks. She's about has credible as you're average blogger which is too say she's hardly credible. Mention of Randolph should be removed, if this workplace bullying controversy is too be taken seriously by viewers of wikipedia, only credible journalists should be added. No CBM person, Youtuber or blogger or sites like screenrant. Hpdh4 ( talk) 14:52, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Yes, but when Gal Gadot mentions her issues with Joss Whedon she does not mention any specifics but she made it clear that she did not film any of the reshoots with the rest of the cast, so the claim that Joss Whedon tried to force Gal Gadot to film the scene with Ezra Miller, and used a body double when she refused is most likely false. "Although she declined to elaborate further, Gadot acknowledged she had her own “experience” with the director, which was resolved to her satisfaction. “I’m happy for Ray to go out and speak his truth,” says Gadot. “I wasn’t there with the guys when they shot with Joss Whedon — I had my own experience with [him], which wasn’t the best one, but I took care of it there and when it happened. I took it to the higher-ups and they took care of it. But I’m happy for Ray to go up and say his truth.”" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.141.177.42 ( talk) 22:11, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
With regard to this edit, I do want to clarify that "gender dysphoria" is just kind of a fancy label given to someone wanting to be another gender. The cited interview quotes him saying, "I literally grew up wishing that I were a woman." This is simply put as him having had gender dysphoria in childhood. The following sentence clarifies that this is not just a throwaway line but something he has expressed repeatedly to "many women". It doesn't necessarily imply anything about him now but strikes me as relevant to his interests in writing strong female characters throughout his career as a filmmaker. If this is problematic for biographies of living persons due to the potential politicization of that detail, I understand its being withheld but do think it's notable in a way that the dismissive edit removing it is erroneous for not recognizing. -- OGoncho ( talk) 18:37, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm not terribly well-informed on the subject, but in a number of talks and descriptions I've read, he's one of those "all-talk-pro-bite" "feminists", where he speaks in favour of women and then.. well, doesn't behave very well. This, I've been informed, is a somewhat common occurrence, ie. that bad men use feminism to justify and/or hide their abusive nature.
Now, I don't actually follow hollywood stuff, or feminism stuff, or.. well, anything related stuff. But given how often I've heard about his misbehaviour, and how out-spoken he is, I reckon that some of you who follow all that hollywood stuff might want to make a bigger emphasis on it, PROVIDED that it's actual factual and can be backed up by reliable sources. Though whatever is considered a reliable source for hollywood wrongdoing other than court cases, I've no idea.
Signed, I'm not sober enough to post, but I'm too unsober to be reasonable. 31.209.219.230 ( talk) 23:32, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
I looked at the page for Dan Schneider who is making a ton of headlines for the toxic workplace environment he created at Nickelodeon. [2] Multiple people have said Whedon’s workplace environment was also pretty toxic. Should we mention it at the top of the article? And1987 ( talk) 00:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)