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This article has been disputed heavily with regards to it's neutrality. Some of these are old, but some are relatively recent. What is the consensus, is this article stable and neutral enough to be a GA? I would appreciate it if someone could give an up-to-date statement regarding the neutrality debate. Obvious neutrality is a clear requirement for a GA.
Reviewer: ~
Gosox(
55)(
55)
17:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi Gosox,
I'm a bit of a vocal outsider here so take my input for what it's worth.
From my position the article is quite inflammatory in overall tone (thus the frequent input by myself and others highly offended in the LDS community), long, over-sourced, and dependent on unstable sources. Many argue that Brodie is the most prominent on the subject, but as many would gladly source another researcher with less academic baggage (much speculation on her methods and bias). The other researcher cited frequently is touted by contributors as a faithful Mormon, yet this is a red herring as the majority of his research (in his book "A Rough Stone Rolling") was purposely aimed at finding the subject's flaws. This does not exclude his research but does beg the question about balance in the article. I know there are many who would like to see this article GAed as recognition of their efforts, but I think we need to remember this is not an article about pomegranates, it is about an important religious figure to a large faith community, and prudence and sensitivity should be considered before expediting this article's approval prematurely.
Thanks.
173.180.112.66 ( talk) 17:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
For what it's worth, I'm a non-Mormon (in fact, a "never-been-a-Mormon") who believes this encyclopedia article is about as unbiased and nicely balanced as any piece about Joseph Smith can be. I wish to be respectful here, but I think what Weaponbb7 interprets as pro-Mormon bias stems from his own lack of familiarity with the literature.-- John Foxe ( talk) 20:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok I knew i have some flack from people who worked so hard on it and have done a pretty desecent job. this is normal type of reaction is normal
"sectarian ferver of their day" its not the type of language that is not good in a Encyclopedia its very flowery language. There is a fair bit of flowery language here which could be reduced to more simple and precise words. "well-to-do neighbor"
Below the Infobox in there is Template that says says "This article is part of the series Joseph Smith, Jr." Than list the subjects "the polygammy" and "Criticism" Among other things sections that were left out of the article. I do not know why these two were left out but they were so i have to question why? leaving those two out seemed odd to leave out I had to question why?
"Legacy" seems an odd choice of words for a section it makes it sound like the page is memorial.
Classic example of language I am concerned about "Historians regard Joseph Smith as one of the most imaginative, charismatic, and controversial leaders in American religious history." Its stated but this needs to be expanded as it is not clear to me reading it what is "imaginative" about what he has done? and again why is he "controversial leaders." this could substatially expanded by a few paragraphs.
"On matters of public policy, Smith favored a strong central bank and high tariffs to protect American business and agriculture. Smith disfavored imprisonment of convicts except for murder, preferring efforts to reform criminals through labor; he also opposed courts-martial for military deserters. " is complexly uncited could use citation. critical Commentary might involve some scholarly Analysis of his action Stephen A. Kent wrote a good one a few years ago that might be useful as an example or as a useful reference
I would argue that "Some Scholars" is weaselly... just name the scholars who say so!
Over all I think this article is pretty good. The Actual Biography portion of his life is so well done I can't find anything wrong with it. I think I will give this the thumbs up once the flowery language is cleared up and the legacy section is rewritten to include the scholarly analysis of him. Weaponbb7 ( talk) 23:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
An example of the type of commentary I would look for: http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/pdfplus/10.1525/nr.2010.13.3.34
[3] This is the kind of stuff i might be looking for Weaponbb7 ( talk) 23:52, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
There's a Second Opinion request and two reviews, and there appears to have been no activity on the GA Review for over a month. Who is actually doing the review? And is a Second Opinion still requested? Speed is not the priority in a GA Review, and if the review is still in progress that is fine, though an update comment would be useful at this point. SilkTork * YES! 16:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't mean any offense, but when Weaponbb wrote,
"This article has some severe flaws with bias as it lacks critical commentary of this figure."
I was left wondering if he had read the right article. This whole article is nothing but a critical commentary.
Polygamist? treasure-hunter? Exorcist? Tried as disorderly? Power-grabbing? Military leader in retreat? "Dirty"? "Nasty"? Poor financial oversight? Intimidating? Pillaging? Media suppressor?
And that's all in the first half of the article! You can believe all that tripe, but surely you can't suggest the article lacks critical commentary. If that's praise, I'd hate to see what criticism is.
Is there anyone here that would argue that the majority of the references sources are not critics of Joseph? The only one I can find who is not cynically critical in their research is Bushman, and his writings were purposely aimed at finding Joseph's flaws. So Brodie gets to write, fair. And LDS Church Historians are excluded based on a sensitivity to POV, arguably fair. But for anyone to then suggest the article is not critical enough after all that?
My input is that this article has a strong structurally negative bias. I don't lay the fault so much with the contributors, as much as the framework of sources on which Joseph Smith's life has been myopically defined. Until the 1970s, the only academics who seemed to be writing (the consensus here is often that, unfortunately, Brodie is the best we have) about Joseph Smith had strong negative biases. And when you then take out the acceptance of LDS sources it is not surprising the article reads more like an expose'.
So my two bits. This article may be on hold for a few years until it can be fundamentally reworked. No, I do not expect it to look like a Mormon pamphlet. But, yes, I expect it to go back to the drawing board until there are more reliable historians (not merely anti-Mormon or even pro-Mormon cynics) who are not writing because they have an axe to grind. The problem is not the contributors, the problem is not the good will to balance this based on the evidence. The problem, I think, is with the very limited availability of reliable AND unbiased research.
Fawn Brodie was actually right when she wrote, "No man knows my history." And as Nibley referred to her research, "No, Ma'am, that's not history."
Feel free to slag a great religious leader, just take a little time before you do to notice the dove on top of the discussion page.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 06:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
COgden,
Unfair. I never said that all non-Mormon writers have an axe to grind. But I do think that the majority of evidence written about Joseph Smith before the 1970s was inherently based in a 'love him/hate him' paradigm. Neither do I "...suspect the motives of anyone writing about Mormonism who isn't a firm believer." Your words, not mine. It was Charles Dickens who wrote,
"But I went on board their ship to bear testimony against them if they deserved it, as I fully believed they would; to my great astonishment, they did not deserve it; and my predispositions and tendencies must not affect me as an honest witness, I went over the Amazon's side, feeling it impossible to deny that, so far, some remarkable influence had produced a remarkable result, which better-known influences have often missed."
Last I checked Dickens was not a Mormon.
But forgive me a fair academic skepticism when I ask individuals writing on Joseph Smith the following;
1. What is your motivation in writing on Joseph Smith? 2. What will you use as your evidences and sources? 3. When you come across unproven or speculative evidences, how will you address them?
As an example, my non-Mormon father is in the process of writing a book on the history of Louis Riel. I asked him why, as there is no family/religious/historical connection whatsoever, he would write on such a topic. His reason is that since Riel was a polarizing figure, most of the histories he has read are founded in a positive or negative bias. As he is not on either side of the history he feels he would make a better writer on the topic for that very reason.
I think this is a perfect parallel to the problem with this article. Joseph Smith researchers may attempt neutrality, but their sources are largely drawn from wildly biased sources (those who loved him enough to write, or those who hated him enough to write). And no, I don't even blame the Mormon haters for this paradox. It's not a question of who's right and wrong, it's a question of when are we going to look for better sources that the 'poisoned tree' we've been eating from for so long.
One of the discussions we (I, sorry) debated for a long time related to the number of wives Joseph Smith was purported to have had. While DNA testing has yet to prove a single offspring from Joseph (except through Emma) the old records are given preferred treatment. I don't expect people to agree with my religious beliefs, I do expect the historians and contributors here to have the courage to admit that not enough is truly 'known' about Joseph to fly this article as an accurate depiction (Good Article) of who Joseph Smith was. It seems amazingly Quixotic to do so.
You make the point that several "scholars all cite each other, and everybody cites them." I suspect if we sat them down and asked them if they were happy with the quality of evidence available to them they would say pretty much what I'm saying here, It's too bad Joseph Smith was such a polarizing figure, because it's hard to know which, of any of the early chroniclers can be trusted. And those that are worth their salt would be saying something like, we're just scratching the surface of Joseph Smith, the only thing Brodie got right is when she quoted Smith's own words, "No man knows [his] history."
Hey, look. A windmill.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 01:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Article (
|
visual edit |
history) ·
Article talk (
|
history) ·
Watch
This article has been disputed heavily with regards to it's neutrality. Some of these are old, but some are relatively recent. What is the consensus, is this article stable and neutral enough to be a GA? I would appreciate it if someone could give an up-to-date statement regarding the neutrality debate. Obvious neutrality is a clear requirement for a GA.
Reviewer: ~
Gosox(
55)(
55)
17:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi Gosox,
I'm a bit of a vocal outsider here so take my input for what it's worth.
From my position the article is quite inflammatory in overall tone (thus the frequent input by myself and others highly offended in the LDS community), long, over-sourced, and dependent on unstable sources. Many argue that Brodie is the most prominent on the subject, but as many would gladly source another researcher with less academic baggage (much speculation on her methods and bias). The other researcher cited frequently is touted by contributors as a faithful Mormon, yet this is a red herring as the majority of his research (in his book "A Rough Stone Rolling") was purposely aimed at finding the subject's flaws. This does not exclude his research but does beg the question about balance in the article. I know there are many who would like to see this article GAed as recognition of their efforts, but I think we need to remember this is not an article about pomegranates, it is about an important religious figure to a large faith community, and prudence and sensitivity should be considered before expediting this article's approval prematurely.
Thanks.
173.180.112.66 ( talk) 17:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
For what it's worth, I'm a non-Mormon (in fact, a "never-been-a-Mormon") who believes this encyclopedia article is about as unbiased and nicely balanced as any piece about Joseph Smith can be. I wish to be respectful here, but I think what Weaponbb7 interprets as pro-Mormon bias stems from his own lack of familiarity with the literature.-- John Foxe ( talk) 20:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok I knew i have some flack from people who worked so hard on it and have done a pretty desecent job. this is normal type of reaction is normal
"sectarian ferver of their day" its not the type of language that is not good in a Encyclopedia its very flowery language. There is a fair bit of flowery language here which could be reduced to more simple and precise words. "well-to-do neighbor"
Below the Infobox in there is Template that says says "This article is part of the series Joseph Smith, Jr." Than list the subjects "the polygammy" and "Criticism" Among other things sections that were left out of the article. I do not know why these two were left out but they were so i have to question why? leaving those two out seemed odd to leave out I had to question why?
"Legacy" seems an odd choice of words for a section it makes it sound like the page is memorial.
Classic example of language I am concerned about "Historians regard Joseph Smith as one of the most imaginative, charismatic, and controversial leaders in American religious history." Its stated but this needs to be expanded as it is not clear to me reading it what is "imaginative" about what he has done? and again why is he "controversial leaders." this could substatially expanded by a few paragraphs.
"On matters of public policy, Smith favored a strong central bank and high tariffs to protect American business and agriculture. Smith disfavored imprisonment of convicts except for murder, preferring efforts to reform criminals through labor; he also opposed courts-martial for military deserters. " is complexly uncited could use citation. critical Commentary might involve some scholarly Analysis of his action Stephen A. Kent wrote a good one a few years ago that might be useful as an example or as a useful reference
I would argue that "Some Scholars" is weaselly... just name the scholars who say so!
Over all I think this article is pretty good. The Actual Biography portion of his life is so well done I can't find anything wrong with it. I think I will give this the thumbs up once the flowery language is cleared up and the legacy section is rewritten to include the scholarly analysis of him. Weaponbb7 ( talk) 23:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
An example of the type of commentary I would look for: http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/pdfplus/10.1525/nr.2010.13.3.34
[3] This is the kind of stuff i might be looking for Weaponbb7 ( talk) 23:52, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
There's a Second Opinion request and two reviews, and there appears to have been no activity on the GA Review for over a month. Who is actually doing the review? And is a Second Opinion still requested? Speed is not the priority in a GA Review, and if the review is still in progress that is fine, though an update comment would be useful at this point. SilkTork * YES! 16:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't mean any offense, but when Weaponbb wrote,
"This article has some severe flaws with bias as it lacks critical commentary of this figure."
I was left wondering if he had read the right article. This whole article is nothing but a critical commentary.
Polygamist? treasure-hunter? Exorcist? Tried as disorderly? Power-grabbing? Military leader in retreat? "Dirty"? "Nasty"? Poor financial oversight? Intimidating? Pillaging? Media suppressor?
And that's all in the first half of the article! You can believe all that tripe, but surely you can't suggest the article lacks critical commentary. If that's praise, I'd hate to see what criticism is.
Is there anyone here that would argue that the majority of the references sources are not critics of Joseph? The only one I can find who is not cynically critical in their research is Bushman, and his writings were purposely aimed at finding Joseph's flaws. So Brodie gets to write, fair. And LDS Church Historians are excluded based on a sensitivity to POV, arguably fair. But for anyone to then suggest the article is not critical enough after all that?
My input is that this article has a strong structurally negative bias. I don't lay the fault so much with the contributors, as much as the framework of sources on which Joseph Smith's life has been myopically defined. Until the 1970s, the only academics who seemed to be writing (the consensus here is often that, unfortunately, Brodie is the best we have) about Joseph Smith had strong negative biases. And when you then take out the acceptance of LDS sources it is not surprising the article reads more like an expose'.
So my two bits. This article may be on hold for a few years until it can be fundamentally reworked. No, I do not expect it to look like a Mormon pamphlet. But, yes, I expect it to go back to the drawing board until there are more reliable historians (not merely anti-Mormon or even pro-Mormon cynics) who are not writing because they have an axe to grind. The problem is not the contributors, the problem is not the good will to balance this based on the evidence. The problem, I think, is with the very limited availability of reliable AND unbiased research.
Fawn Brodie was actually right when she wrote, "No man knows my history." And as Nibley referred to her research, "No, Ma'am, that's not history."
Feel free to slag a great religious leader, just take a little time before you do to notice the dove on top of the discussion page.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 06:01, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
COgden,
Unfair. I never said that all non-Mormon writers have an axe to grind. But I do think that the majority of evidence written about Joseph Smith before the 1970s was inherently based in a 'love him/hate him' paradigm. Neither do I "...suspect the motives of anyone writing about Mormonism who isn't a firm believer." Your words, not mine. It was Charles Dickens who wrote,
"But I went on board their ship to bear testimony against them if they deserved it, as I fully believed they would; to my great astonishment, they did not deserve it; and my predispositions and tendencies must not affect me as an honest witness, I went over the Amazon's side, feeling it impossible to deny that, so far, some remarkable influence had produced a remarkable result, which better-known influences have often missed."
Last I checked Dickens was not a Mormon.
But forgive me a fair academic skepticism when I ask individuals writing on Joseph Smith the following;
1. What is your motivation in writing on Joseph Smith? 2. What will you use as your evidences and sources? 3. When you come across unproven or speculative evidences, how will you address them?
As an example, my non-Mormon father is in the process of writing a book on the history of Louis Riel. I asked him why, as there is no family/religious/historical connection whatsoever, he would write on such a topic. His reason is that since Riel was a polarizing figure, most of the histories he has read are founded in a positive or negative bias. As he is not on either side of the history he feels he would make a better writer on the topic for that very reason.
I think this is a perfect parallel to the problem with this article. Joseph Smith researchers may attempt neutrality, but their sources are largely drawn from wildly biased sources (those who loved him enough to write, or those who hated him enough to write). And no, I don't even blame the Mormon haters for this paradox. It's not a question of who's right and wrong, it's a question of when are we going to look for better sources that the 'poisoned tree' we've been eating from for so long.
One of the discussions we (I, sorry) debated for a long time related to the number of wives Joseph Smith was purported to have had. While DNA testing has yet to prove a single offspring from Joseph (except through Emma) the old records are given preferred treatment. I don't expect people to agree with my religious beliefs, I do expect the historians and contributors here to have the courage to admit that not enough is truly 'known' about Joseph to fly this article as an accurate depiction (Good Article) of who Joseph Smith was. It seems amazingly Quixotic to do so.
You make the point that several "scholars all cite each other, and everybody cites them." I suspect if we sat them down and asked them if they were happy with the quality of evidence available to them they would say pretty much what I'm saying here, It's too bad Joseph Smith was such a polarizing figure, because it's hard to know which, of any of the early chroniclers can be trusted. And those that are worth their salt would be saying something like, we're just scratching the surface of Joseph Smith, the only thing Brodie got right is when she quoted Smith's own words, "No man knows [his] history."
Hey, look. A windmill.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 01:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy