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I wasn't aware that Wikipedia was about preserving the status quo. The "look and feel" of this article is biased, plain and simple. If that is acceptable and editors are merely publicity hacks with a mission to use Wikipedia as a means of web advertising and in this case, proselytizing Joseph Smith, then I misunderstood the purpose of Wikipedia. Every time anything approaching a real NPOV is posted, it is promptly removed with some meaningless dismissal. You are right about there being another standard for Mormon articles and apparently it is sanitized and redacted history.
--FreedominThought 07:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to burst your fantasy Storm Rider, I am no "sock puppet". I am not a "troll". Your accusation and treatment of me is completely unprofessional and unexusable. To make it clear to someone of your ilk, I am not bcatt and I don't even know what a bcatt is. I find your personal attacks disgusting and repugnant, in no way appropriate for Wikipedia and certainly not for intellectual discussion. If I am stern with you it is because you have been so free with flinging your disparaging comments you ignorantly don't even realize who you have previously offended. So here is a clue for you: Don't ever accuse me of being "dishonest" and an "intellectual coward". Here is your warning:
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy: There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them.
* Comment on content, not on the contributor * Personal attacks damage the community and deter users.
Note that you may be blocked for disruption.. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thanks
Reasonable edits have been made and promptly deleted without rationality so I am pointing that out. --FreedominThought 10:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Since this has become a slightly volatile subject of late, I should probably provide some rationale for a nearly wholesale revert. Two of the additions were not about Joseph Smith but about the comparison of Mormonism (usually the CoJCoLdS) and mainstream Christianity. The addition to the Expositor paragraph wasn't needed: a lists grievances is in the first sentence and the the link isn't the best - I don't trust a html-ized version, but an actual image or a link to a transcription of it from a neutral source could be used. And the intro trim, while useful, took out a little too much imo. -- FyzixFighter 04:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Yet another example of POV violation in this article. IMO, this is blatant removal of NPOV to preserve bias. The article clearly attempts a POV association with Christianity which is completely misleading as to common acceptance.
And why let history get in the way of the Mormon POV while we're at it. Let's delete references to historical documents that are not Mormon as they are embarrassing. I would say excuse the sarcasm, but the bias in this article is blatant and the attempts of certain editors to maintain that bias is woefully apparent. Certain insinuative comments and dismissals by various editors have been totally unprofessional.
--FreedominThought 07:14, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
If I misinterpreted your intentions, I apologize. Seeing the vast approach to Mormon redacted and restated history in this article, I simply saw these edits as more of the same. As far as sources, considering nearly all of the sourcing in this article are from Church sources, they are of questionable credibility as well. --FreedominThought 08:05, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Working on this section and have a problem with the following phrase:
I don't know who wrote it, but how were the courts biased? The following paragraph mentions how two people were fined 1 penny each for tarring and feathering Mormons, but it does not demonstrate how that applies. Could someone take a look at this. I am unfamiliar with the article quoted. Thanks. Storm Rider 08:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
To say the courts were biased against Smith cannot be said without reference. It is strongly POV. If it is quoted by a noted historian it would probably be acceptable, but I am uncomfortable with it. I will change the article now to something less POV. Storm Rider 16:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
bcatt 12:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
As I thought, "Mormon" and "Expulsion order" were the actual search words used to find the sourced article, the provided link was changed as soon as I posted my feeling that this was a more appropriate term. The original link provided was this. bcatt 12:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I managed to upset everyone. I don't plan on sticking around, but if someone wants a third opinion about some subject you can ask me. I'm not LDS, but I'm familiar enough with the subject.
The South Park link is not a source, like I said, but it references documents in the text and gives ideas.
Storm Rider, these edits are great! That's what I was talking about, providing references to different sides of a disputed story. and bcatt's follow up was very reasonable and cleared out some of the POV wording. One more advice, avoid conflict, wikipedia is not worth your soul. Cuñado - Talk 17:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Since this has been through like twenty edits let's discuss it. The people claimed to have seen the plates. This is all that's relevant for this article. To say that they saw them in vision and not in person is POV asserting that things seen "in vision" are less reliable than those seen in person, and also ignores the facts that they saw the plates in vision in person. All we need to do here is say that they said they saw the plates. If the reader is interested, he can read deeper and find that they were seen in vision, and he can also make his own determinations about the intimacy the witnesses had with Smith and the organization of the Church and the legitimacy of material seen in vision. Although it's logical that a group of men whose witnesses are printed in the front of the book they're witnessing would be intimately involved in organizing a Church to go with the book. cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 23:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Fyz, there's actually a Mormon-run Wiki where they freely admit that the articles, rather than being neutral and factual, have a Mormon POV, hence MPOV. My point was that this is supposed to be Wikipedia, home of (endless battles over) NPOV, so we can't side for or against Mormonism. We have to state the facts and let people decide.
Just now, Trödel responded on my talk page, insisting that only one source admitted the witnessing was through a vision. Let's focus on this factual claim. Alienus 00:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I just re-read Three Witnesses, as per Trödel's suggestion. To be frank, it looks like there's more than enough evidence to allow us to state that the witnesses saw the plates in a vision, not in person. I think we should revert Trödel's most recent change. Alienus 00:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
If the testimony had been that Smith had reached into his trunk and showed them all some golden plates, then a later story about visions would seem out of place. However, it actually speaks about an angel coming down and showing the plates, which is just the sort of thing you expect to see in a vision, making Harris' clarification quite consistent. I think we need to report what Harris said, so as to avoid POV. I'm going to see if I can fit this in neutrally. Alienus 02:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I put back the facts, without summaries or editorializing. I think it's NPOV now. Alienus 03:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Storm Rider ( talk • contribs) .
The problem seems to be over these last three sentences of the "Early life, family, and religious experiences" section:
Each sentence, taken in isolation, appears to be factual. But in the given arrangement, they give a different impression than is intended. The solution will be to come up with a different summary. What about if this paragraph replaces them?:
With the appropriate wikilinks, does this work? Val42 06:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, the wording of the Testimony of 3 is indicative of a vision, not a physical viewing.
And Storm Rider, that Smith handled the plates can hardly be deemed a fact. Your continued tantrums and "I'm never speaking to you again"s are hardly conducive to productive discussion. --FreedominThought 07:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I think bcatt's latest edit does a pretty good job of explaining the different stated experiences of the witnesses while also including their relations to JS in an NPOV manner. My only suggestions are to maybe add "firsthand" to the 8 witnesses description to contrast it to the 3 witnesses account, and to remove the quotation marks around the second mention of "the three witnesses". It makes it almost look like scare quotes; we could just as well capitalize it, ie Three Witnesses, since that title was already defined in the previous sentence. Nice work, bcatt. -- FyzixFighter 04:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The criticism that the witnesses only saw the plates "in vision" (i.e., they weren't real) is effectively rebutted in Richard L. Anderson's classic work Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Deseret Book, 1981; LINK). Any claim that they didn't really see physical plates needs to deal with Anderson's extensive research, which includes quotes from the witnesses themselves denying that they only had a vision and affirming that the plates were a physical reality. If such quotes would be useful and appropriate for this article, I would be more than happy to provide them. -- MrWhipple 18:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, I don't think you're giving Bcatt the respect due to him. All he's asking for is for the sources to include more than just Mormons. That's not unreasonable, but your response is. Alienus 17:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
You know, the world is a lot bigger than pro-Mormonism and anti-Mormonism. Most people have never even heard of Mormonism in the first place, and those who have heard of it likely know little more than the Osmonds and the Tabernacle Choir. Frankly, when it comes to Mormonism, ignorance and apathy are the norm. Keep that in mind before you try to divide the world up into allies and enemies. Agreeing with bcatt on this matter does not make me your enemy. It makes me someone who disagrees on one particular matter. Take off your blinkers and tone down your hostility.
Now, some scholars of Mormonism are not pro or con; they just stick to the facts, regardless of where that leads them. However, when a scholar is clearly partisan, we have to recognize this and not pretend it's immaterial. . The fact that someone is biased colors the likelihood that their claims are factual and adding partisan scholars can upset POV neutrality, so we have to be careful. Alienus 18:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
If you were to say that the BoM is not the Bible, you'd be right. But that's not enough for you. Instead, you claim it's "completely independent", which is utter nonsense. Don't overstate your case to the point of error. Alienus 23:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Just by editing this section of the discussion, I get a length warning: "This page is 53 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size." Perhaps we should take this as a hint that this particular discussion is generating more heat than light. Remember, we're trying to decide on wording for a short summary for a section that is discussed in more detail on another page. Val42 01:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
We can probably archive any dead parts of this page. I was also looking at the article itself and noticed that it had a large section that hasn't been broken out yet, "Major teachings". Perhaps we can extract this into "Major teachings of Joseph Smith" or something, leaving a link and summary in the main article. What do you think? Alienus 06:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying the section is bad, just disproportionately large. For articles that are increasingly comprehensive over time, the idea is to break out self-sufficient sections into forked articles, then condense the original to a summary paragraph that links to the new main article for that subject. This is what I'm suggesting for "Major teachings". Alienus 08:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Like the "1827 to 1831" section, which is a summary that references the main article, Life of Joseph Smith, Jr. from 1827 to 1831. Alienus 17:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not really too sure what to do with this subsection. It seems poorly organized and difficult to read. I don't want to remove anything of worth, so I want to put anything I take out into the subarticle, but I'm not sure how exactly to do this without interrupting the flow of both articles. I removed the paragraph on the Danites in the main article (relatively unimportant, already in subarticle), and moved the quote about the trial to the subarticle, and added much clarification to the subsection. This sectino still needs work, however, so please tighten up the prose and make it more readable.
For your viewing pleasure, I give you my diff from this article, and my diff from the subarticle. I would like help on both, if possible. -- Trevdna 22:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I would restore this to Jesus Christ as I don't know what purpose of the change is, but because it was made by bcatt I am asking for comments. At the least one reference to Jesus Christ should be made because there is a distinction between Jesus and Jesus Christ in that the latter is a reference to Jesus as the Messiah. Trödel• talk 12:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
bcatt 21:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Ah, that would explain why I can't sit comfortably in this chair. On second thought, if I was your sockpuppet, I'd share your apparent anger towards Trödel. In fact, we've talked before, and he's reasonable even though he's wrong a lot we often disagree.
Alienus 17:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about? I understood him just fine. It's one thing to disagree, another to pretend that someone is babbling.
Bcatt has a very simple point: the guy's name is Jesus. Calling him "Christ" (except in the context of a quote or somesuch) is an endorsement of him as the Messiah, which is a POV incompatible with such things as Judaism, Islam and Bahai'i. It's not his last name, it's a religious title and that's not neutral. What part of this do you fail to understand? 01:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC) Alienus 01:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Then why are you arguing? No, wait, don't answer that. It was a rhetorical question. Let this drop. Alienus 01:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Needs to be researched and re-written. The lost tribes were not to reestablish Israel. Israel was reestablished by Jews from the tribe of Judah which was not one of the lost tribes.--FreedominThought 08:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... most of those major teachings (including this one) were added in by one person after a request for expansion. Do you think this one even needs to be there? It's not really that major... if there was a seperate article about this, it might be relevant, but as it is, it's pretty short and pointless. I would just say do away with it, and add it back in if there's ever a split off article. -- Trevdna 23:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Righto then. I removed it - don't think it will be missed, but if it is, feel free to put it back. -- Trevdna 15:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Quick References - I know taht there are news articles also stating this but can't find them quickly:
...they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. -History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 217
The saints were accused of being abolitionists and a threat to the status of the state of Missouri, then a slave state. Even from the 1900s to the 1940s, when there was a general segregation of Blacks from so-called white churches, there was no Church policy of racial segregation of blacks and whites in THE CHURCH of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. -D. Charles Pyle, Encyclopedia of Mormonism
Trödel• talk 01:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
These anons have included virtually identical bullet points to the 'Life in Missouri' section, which I object to, not only because I think they are of dubious POV (I worked a little on that), but because they don't seem to be the underlying factors for the violence. I have included the most recent versions below:
These DO deserve mention (some perhaps in the subarticle, if not here), but they seem to be effects, rather than underlying causes of violence.
Further, these anons have included the bolded text here: "In consequence of these reports, including sworn affadavits by ex-Mormons that the Mormons were planning to burn both Liberty and Richmond, Missouri, Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs issued an executive order known as the "Extermination Order" on 27 October 1838..."
If the person that included this is reading this, would they please do a favor and include a reference for this? - it seems to be out of place, as (even if it's true - I suspect it isn't, but it could be...) I'm sure that these reports would have included many other things in them as well. Thanks!-- Trevdna 15:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Note: if someone can provide a representative person or body to whom criticism of Smith's military and political involvement can be attributed, that would be dandy and more in keeping with proper NPOV (ie: I would like "by others" to read "by X (group)", "by others, such as Y (group or individual)", "by X (group), such as Y (group or individual)", or anything similar. bcatt 05:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I thought I saw a reference somewhere in the talk archives about a site with lots of free use images...at least I hope this was for this article or this may lead to a fruitless search. bcatt 07:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Some examples of POV in this article include (not a complete list):
In addition, not all of the issues raised in the previous debate were properly resolved, instead a diversion was created to prevent the discussion from resolving anything...let's keep on topic this time. That means no personal attacks, no edit warring to prevent the article from being properly tagged (because there is indeed an NPOV dispute, as this comment (and many previous comments by several other users) shows), no biting newcomers, no arguments based on POV (ie: this is what my religion says and my religion is the truth, so therefore this is the truth...that's faulty logic), no telling people they aren't knowledgable if they're not Mormon (or deeming another person knowledgable just because they are Mormon)...etc, etc, etc. My patience with these things is as thin as it's going to get, so I won't be as tolerant as I was with the first dispute.
Note: I am not necessarily expecting anyone else to do anything specific to the article, just making it clear that I intend to go through it like I did with the intro, and why; and inviting collaboration on this because that is how we make wikipedia work as it should...I am fairly comfortable with doing the edits myself, if need be, and will ask any questions I need to here or else do the necessary research, but collaboration would be the best way. bcatt 05:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry (not really) that you're jealous, and upset that I don't fit into your narrow view of women, but I'm not here to accomodate outdated and inhumane ideas...get over it. This is your last warning about the personal attacks. bcatt 08:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This time around, I find myself agreeing with bcatt; she has valid arguements because she has actually stated legitimate conerns that she has that are present throughout the article. I think Storm Rider is being sarcastic, and so I disagree with him. (Well, I would agree with him, if I'm wrong, and he is really sincere, but I doubt that.) As long as your (bcatt's) edits provide proper context (including pertinent wikilinks), and provide opposing POVs to current pieces of the article (rather than introducing new instances in Smith's life, just to add an Anti-Mormon POV - these are usually less relevant instances), I would support your work.
The reason I put the Kinderhook Plates section to the subarticle is mostly that it seemed to me a fairly irrevelant piece of information, and the MPOV could be more effectively corrected by simply adding opposing viewpoints to the things that are there now. (Also, that section did not include wikilinks, and I didn't want to deal with that in the main article - a lousy reason, but there it is.) This may have been an accidental POV fork, but I do not think it is a very relevant portion of Smith's life. I feel the best way to counter this MPOV is to add contrasting POVs to existing sections, or take out MPOV from the article as it stands. g However, I don't think the teachings section is as bad as it is made out to be. It speaks about what he taught; that is part of why he was important, and it has been implied that, yes, this is Smith's POV, but yes, this is necessary... But overall, the article does need work.
Bcatt, you had better be willing to take some extra special initiative on this one. We Mormons (myself included - I realize this!) here are not particularly interested in doing research that would go against our own God-given POV. Raul's 3rd law and its corollay explains this phenomenon fairly well.
Also his Razor (11th law) seems to back bcatt up on her allegations of POV in this article.
Bcatt - don't get discouraged by Storm Rider or anyone else! This article needs you! I have no sarcasm here, and truly wish you the best! I will be willing to help if I can. -- Trevdna 04:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good; you have my support. Alienus 19:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Trodel, you have accused It's Mormonlicious of being a sock puppet, to the extent of seeing yourself justified in using that as a sole excuse for reverting their edits (edits I might add, that had seemingly fine and appropriately descriptive edit summaries). However, you have failed to summon the common integrity required to state outright who you are accusing mormonlicious of being a sock puppet of and why. Yes, I'm sure most of us know the answer to this already, but it doesn't change the fact that if you are going to make these kinds of accusations, you need to at least do it in a responsible fashion. bcatt 08:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Then, pray tell, who's sock puppet do you think they are? We have been over this experience thing before in regard to FreedominThought...call up to your mind how the last accusations of this were addressed:
"Being an "experienced editor" and "established member of the wikipedia community", you should know better than to BITE the newcomers!...who is a sock puppet, and of whom?...be responsible for your vague accusations...As a matter of fact, some people, Trodel, like to learn how things work before jumping into it. I myself used Wikipedia for nearly an entire year before making my first edit and was relatively familiar by the time I did. Not all that "amazing", just a specific mode of learning and activity...it's called individuality...not everyone is exactly the same."
Do you honestly not think that blindly accusing someone of being a sock puppet (especially without specifying who the suspected puppeteer is) is not a personal form of weasel words? Do you not think it is more appropriate to leave a note on the talk page describing what weasel words are and requesting that the other user specify a critic or group of critics? Also, weasel words is beside the actual point anyway, as it was not Mormonlicious who added that phrase, and you changed words other than "Critics of the Church say"...please be sure in the future that your reasons are consistant with your actions. I'm not offended, anymore than I was offended by being accused of sock puppetry with FreedominThought...I think it's rather funny, actually. But I do not think it's funny that there is so much disruptive behaviour going on here, which is why I am addressing the issue. bcatt 18:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Do I understand you correctly that you are refusing to be responsible for your accusation? bcatt 03:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Responsible by stating clearly who you were accusing of having Mormonlicious as a sock puppet, as I already clearly indicated about 3 or 4 times. bcatt 19:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that evidence suggests that User:It's Mormonlicious is a sock puppet - especially based on contextual information (who knows whose sock puppet they are, but we'll track them down). The editor, registered two days ago, has a lot of information, not only about how Wikipedia works (lending others to believe that he has been registered before), but is very familar with the arguments and discussion of the page. Not that a new user cannot quickly gain this info, but it is unusual. Not that sock puppets really matter anyway. Ususally, the same argument over and over is still the same lame argument, and usually still doesn't lend to consensus of the experienced editors. There is no point to sock puppeting in a discussion like this - as it will not make a difference in the concensus gathering. I'll see if I can track down the IP address and compare to editors who have edited this page in the past three months. Not easy to do, but I'll track it down. - Visorstuff 21:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Who could have imagined that one single four-letter word written by Trödel in his edit summary would result in such rancor?
Lighten up, people! Put a sock over your madly-typing hands and cool off for a bit already! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.120.210.19 (
talk •
contribs) .
Holy Cow folks. All I said is that evidence lends that Mormonlicious is a sock puppet - which I am well aware of what one is, having been a Wikipedia admin longer than how long each of you have been editing on the wiki. In fact, you may want to read the definition yourself - "This account allows them to pose as a completely different user, sometimes to manufacture the illusion of support in a vote or argument" ( Internet sock puppet). This is what the purpose of It's Mormonlicious is trying to do, but again, as stated before, is not an effective means in this instance.
Also Bcatt - no need to get so defensive - I'm not attacking anyone, just trying to figure out who is editing this page, and in this instance, what It's Mormonlicious is trying to accomplish. As you know, the editing history on wikipedia is important context in working with editors. I DO consider Changing usernames on a whim to make a point and to be anonymous is unethical. I could care less about if they are a sock puppet, as stated above, but knowing who they are helps me better address and work with them.
Also, if you read my post, you'll notice that I did say it is possible for new users to quickly learn, but that is the exception, not the rule. In this case, evidence supports the sock puppet theory.
Lastly, you wrote: "You know, you aren't doing a very good job as an admin if you hold double standards based on what religion an editor is (something I've seen frm you in other issues on this article as well)..."
This is a personal attack directed towards me, although I do appreciate the feedback. However, I am curious: since when have I held anyone to a double standard? In fact, if I remember right, I rebuked Storm Rider for his treatment of you about a month ago. I've not defended Mormons or non-Mormons. I'd appreciate you taking this discussion to my talk page and citing examples of this, as I consider the use of my administrative status a very important thing, and I believe I've done a good job of keeping things neutral. Look at my outreach to editors who are not Mormon to get them to come and edit LDSM pages. You obviously don't know my editing and Wikipedia history as well as I know yours.
I'd investigate (and have in the past) if a Mormon was using a sock puppet to push a NPOV point across. I hold all to the same standard, and frankly am suprized at how defensive you've gotten everytime I've stepped in on this article to defend your point of view, help guide the discussion, and help keep a NPOV and your work with other editors. It is frankly immature to repay my offered help in this way (no offense meant, just stating the facts). I'd appreciate the same courtesy I've been trying to show you (not that I have even addressed you in some time). Have I even told you what my religious beliefs are? or are you just assuming? I look forward to a continuation of this discussion on my talk page. - Visorstuff 23:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Please move to my talk page. - Visorstuff 00:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I guess I have been around long enough that I think shorthand will work. These edits are inappropriate because they are not attributed but instead make use of weasel words to, as the style guide says, "give the illusion of neutral point of view..." There may be some critics who claim he falsified the BoM but they should be specifically identified and then paraphrased or quoted along with a link so that other editors can verify it. Use of the term falsified without attribution to a specific critic or providing a reference is not keeping with Wikipedia standards. Trödel• talk 13:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Understood - but the addition of a charged word "falsified" after "Critics ... regard..." takes advantage of the existing weasel words to disguize the POV that falsified implies as NPOV by attributing it to "critics" Trödel• talk 02:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Wikipedians,
I'm just a dabbler in wikipedia, but I've been watching this article with great interest for a couple of years now. The topic of Joseph Smith is one of the most controversial ones possible. Was he a prophet, as he claimed, or a fraud, as his opponents maintain? It's one or the other, folks (no, he wasn't insane). It's likely that a universal consensus on the matter will only occur at the world's "Game Over" event, should there be such a thing.
In the meantime, the debate rages on. And poor Wikipedia is a prime battleground. Almost everyone who might post to the article has a strong opinion on the matter. Often, those who believe he was a prophet have based their entire lifeview on this information. Others see believers as hopelessly deluded, and seek to show them their error.
It's a tug-o-war, NPOV rules or no NPOV rules.
What's the solution? Isn't the idea behind an encyclopedia to give the facts, and present reasonable, well-documented interpretations of them? But both sides will continue to fight over wording and nuances, literally until the end of the world. It will never please everybody, and since everybody can edit the document.... yikes.
Maybe divide the article into four parts:
"Joseph Smith, Jr.: The Facts" contains only docuemnted facts. What happened, according to who, what records show. Stuff that both sides can mostly agree on (there will always be the unreasonable fringe; ignore them).
"Joseph Smith, Jr.: The Fraud" holds material from the point of view of those who maintain that he was a fraud, or at least deluded.
"Joseph Smith, Jr.: The Prophet" holds material from the point of view of those who maintain that he was a prophet, or at least once was a prophet.
"Joseph Smith, Jr.: NPOV Summary" holds a smaller set of information, suitable for casual reading by those seeking a surface scan of who he was. Strict NPOV in here, of course.
I think this scheme might be possible, because all sides can have their say, without having to delete each others' content, step on each others' toes.
At least we can be grateful that Mormons aren't as touchy about their prophet as Islam. :) Wadsworth 21:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I do realize that the article size is now increased by 1kb, but as I have stated numerous times, one of my goals here is to touch on all the major points, describing them as briefly as possible, while moving all the finer details to sub articles...it is not uncommon for an issue to temporarily increase just prior to it's decrease.
I also realize that there is bound to be much hate directed at me (and attempts to start an edit war) for referring to Smith's practice of polygamy, but there is a lot of evidence that this occured, and little to no evidence (besides Smith's own word - which is not really evidence) that it didn't occur. And, in fact, Smith contradicts himself by claiming publicly that he did not practice it, while the D&C (a section which came from Smith's own mouth) specifically says: Joseph {Smith, Jr.} is allowed to practice polygamy in the name of God, so don't try to stop him or punish him for it.
The link provided here goes to the following verse:
"Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God."
which is immediately followed by the two verses linked to in the new intro:
"And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified."
It is pretty obvious that this is a "commandment" that Smith is justified in committing polygamy. Regardless of whether or not he practiced it, he did indeed teach it, whether it came from God or not, Smith taught that polygamy was an acceptable, and even preferable, practice among those in the Mormon priesthood, which is shown in other parts of Mormon texts (which I don't have handy atm), that say that it is preferable to breed like crazy...much easier to do that if you can have several women pregnant at once, wouldn't you say?
Smith did indeed have several wives, one who was 14 and whom Smith prevented from marrying the man she actually loved so that Smith could marry her. In fact, he proposed to many young girls, often successfully, threatening them with eternal damnation if the refused...which, at that time was considered a form of rape (and sill is, in some areas) - not that Smith cared what the "Gentile laws" were. Not only this, but he also married sisters, teenagers that were his legal wards and therefore his parental responsibility. He also married his sister-in-law. The list goes on. Apologists who admit Mormon polygamy claim that Emma was "supportive" of Smith's polygyny, and fail to mention that she only became "supportive" after Smith suddenly "had a revelation" that God would destroy Emma if she did not comply.
As for DNA proof that Smith fathered children by anyone other than Emma: not finding live people in the current day with DNA matching Smith's does not mean that Smith did not father children by anyone else, it just means that no descendants of Smith have been discovered (if a grown child attempts to find their absent father through DNA, yet does not discover who their father is, does that mean that they have no father? Obviously faulty logic). I find it funny though that the Mormon church claims the lack of DNA evidence (because there is plenty of other evidence) shows that Smith did not have sex with his plural wives (when they even admit that he had plural wives), yet the actual, acquired DNA evidence that American Indians are of Asian ancestry somehow does not show that American Indians are not of middle eastern descent (as claimed by Smith and the Mormon church in his stead). Interesting...very "interesting". bcatt 01:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
In fact, polygamy was as illegal then as it is now, which is why he lied about it. As to it not being against the "law of God":
It's faulty logic, since there is no proof that there actually is a God in the first place. A 14 year old is not a consenting adult, and anyone who is manipulated with threats into a situation they do not want to be in is not consenting regardless of their age...again, faulty logic. Actually, the 14 year old did not insist on being sealed to him, she did not want to marry him, and she had a sweetheart before Smith forced himself on her. Evidence shows that he did have sex with the 14 year old that he forced into marriage and that she was rather distraught over the situation. My agenda is to have this article tell the truth and not be used as a recruitment vehicle...you can use the Mormon wiki for that. bcatt 23:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys.
I changed the header. NOW OMG don't revert me. What happened to the old header? That was a good header, I'ma change it back more like that was. brb la cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 10:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Also I've been reading the first two paragraphs of the Early life section. Is there a reason we're mostly being like, "Ya he said something like this and his mom said something like this" when we could be using the real quotes? cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 11:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Why do I call this vandalism?
Why do I call this trolling?
Changing it back for the following reasons:
This edit has the following effect:
bcatt 15:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have just finished reading the articles:
Muhammad,
Martin Luther,
John Calvin, and
Charles Taze Russell. None of these articles approach the topic with the vehemently negative POV that Bcatt and her ilk, those of similar persuasion. All four individuals were just a controversial in their day as Joseph Smith was in his. Bcatt attempts to hid behind a veil of NPOV, but she perverts it very principles in order to achieve her own POV. I encourage each editor on this page to read each article and then pattern this article in a similar manner. The POV axe lies solely in Bcatts hands. I label her anti-Mormon because she proves her axe grinding ways simply by her arguments and desire to turn this article into something that is not found anywhere else on WIKI. If she were honest she would step forward in state that she is anti-Mormon rather than hiding behind her constant statment, "I am only trying to make this article meet NPOV standards". Poppycock, no other article meets the standards she desires.
Storm Rider
(talk) 20:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this article is well served by personalising any dispute that may have arisen here. Please especially, try to avoid such obviously unnecessary escalating steps like dragging in commentary on essentially unrelated matters, and of broad-brush statements about "the opposition". In short, WP:NPA. Alai 00:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I may be new to WIKI, but could someone please answer Storm Rider's question? I just went to those article and they are nothing like this page for Joseph Smith. Why should this page be treated differently? Is an encyclopeic article to inform the reader about the topic, in this case the founder of Mormonism, or is the purpose of the article to proselyte why no one should ever give Mormonism a second thought? If this is just a stage for anti-Mormonism and people who are against others, I don't think I will be interested in participating. It is a shame and seems like a loss of something that offers so much potential. 12.158.102.191 16:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I wasn't aware that Wikipedia was about preserving the status quo. The "look and feel" of this article is biased, plain and simple. If that is acceptable and editors are merely publicity hacks with a mission to use Wikipedia as a means of web advertising and in this case, proselytizing Joseph Smith, then I misunderstood the purpose of Wikipedia. Every time anything approaching a real NPOV is posted, it is promptly removed with some meaningless dismissal. You are right about there being another standard for Mormon articles and apparently it is sanitized and redacted history.
--FreedominThought 07:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to burst your fantasy Storm Rider, I am no "sock puppet". I am not a "troll". Your accusation and treatment of me is completely unprofessional and unexusable. To make it clear to someone of your ilk, I am not bcatt and I don't even know what a bcatt is. I find your personal attacks disgusting and repugnant, in no way appropriate for Wikipedia and certainly not for intellectual discussion. If I am stern with you it is because you have been so free with flinging your disparaging comments you ignorantly don't even realize who you have previously offended. So here is a clue for you: Don't ever accuse me of being "dishonest" and an "intellectual coward". Here is your warning:
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy: There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them.
* Comment on content, not on the contributor * Personal attacks damage the community and deter users.
Note that you may be blocked for disruption.. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thanks
Reasonable edits have been made and promptly deleted without rationality so I am pointing that out. --FreedominThought 10:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Since this has become a slightly volatile subject of late, I should probably provide some rationale for a nearly wholesale revert. Two of the additions were not about Joseph Smith but about the comparison of Mormonism (usually the CoJCoLdS) and mainstream Christianity. The addition to the Expositor paragraph wasn't needed: a lists grievances is in the first sentence and the the link isn't the best - I don't trust a html-ized version, but an actual image or a link to a transcription of it from a neutral source could be used. And the intro trim, while useful, took out a little too much imo. -- FyzixFighter 04:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Yet another example of POV violation in this article. IMO, this is blatant removal of NPOV to preserve bias. The article clearly attempts a POV association with Christianity which is completely misleading as to common acceptance.
And why let history get in the way of the Mormon POV while we're at it. Let's delete references to historical documents that are not Mormon as they are embarrassing. I would say excuse the sarcasm, but the bias in this article is blatant and the attempts of certain editors to maintain that bias is woefully apparent. Certain insinuative comments and dismissals by various editors have been totally unprofessional.
--FreedominThought 07:14, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
If I misinterpreted your intentions, I apologize. Seeing the vast approach to Mormon redacted and restated history in this article, I simply saw these edits as more of the same. As far as sources, considering nearly all of the sourcing in this article are from Church sources, they are of questionable credibility as well. --FreedominThought 08:05, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Working on this section and have a problem with the following phrase:
I don't know who wrote it, but how were the courts biased? The following paragraph mentions how two people were fined 1 penny each for tarring and feathering Mormons, but it does not demonstrate how that applies. Could someone take a look at this. I am unfamiliar with the article quoted. Thanks. Storm Rider 08:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
To say the courts were biased against Smith cannot be said without reference. It is strongly POV. If it is quoted by a noted historian it would probably be acceptable, but I am uncomfortable with it. I will change the article now to something less POV. Storm Rider 16:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
bcatt 12:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
As I thought, "Mormon" and "Expulsion order" were the actual search words used to find the sourced article, the provided link was changed as soon as I posted my feeling that this was a more appropriate term. The original link provided was this. bcatt 12:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I managed to upset everyone. I don't plan on sticking around, but if someone wants a third opinion about some subject you can ask me. I'm not LDS, but I'm familiar enough with the subject.
The South Park link is not a source, like I said, but it references documents in the text and gives ideas.
Storm Rider, these edits are great! That's what I was talking about, providing references to different sides of a disputed story. and bcatt's follow up was very reasonable and cleared out some of the POV wording. One more advice, avoid conflict, wikipedia is not worth your soul. Cuñado - Talk 17:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Since this has been through like twenty edits let's discuss it. The people claimed to have seen the plates. This is all that's relevant for this article. To say that they saw them in vision and not in person is POV asserting that things seen "in vision" are less reliable than those seen in person, and also ignores the facts that they saw the plates in vision in person. All we need to do here is say that they said they saw the plates. If the reader is interested, he can read deeper and find that they were seen in vision, and he can also make his own determinations about the intimacy the witnesses had with Smith and the organization of the Church and the legitimacy of material seen in vision. Although it's logical that a group of men whose witnesses are printed in the front of the book they're witnessing would be intimately involved in organizing a Church to go with the book. cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 23:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Fyz, there's actually a Mormon-run Wiki where they freely admit that the articles, rather than being neutral and factual, have a Mormon POV, hence MPOV. My point was that this is supposed to be Wikipedia, home of (endless battles over) NPOV, so we can't side for or against Mormonism. We have to state the facts and let people decide.
Just now, Trödel responded on my talk page, insisting that only one source admitted the witnessing was through a vision. Let's focus on this factual claim. Alienus 00:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I just re-read Three Witnesses, as per Trödel's suggestion. To be frank, it looks like there's more than enough evidence to allow us to state that the witnesses saw the plates in a vision, not in person. I think we should revert Trödel's most recent change. Alienus 00:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
If the testimony had been that Smith had reached into his trunk and showed them all some golden plates, then a later story about visions would seem out of place. However, it actually speaks about an angel coming down and showing the plates, which is just the sort of thing you expect to see in a vision, making Harris' clarification quite consistent. I think we need to report what Harris said, so as to avoid POV. I'm going to see if I can fit this in neutrally. Alienus 02:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I put back the facts, without summaries or editorializing. I think it's NPOV now. Alienus 03:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Storm Rider ( talk • contribs) .
The problem seems to be over these last three sentences of the "Early life, family, and religious experiences" section:
Each sentence, taken in isolation, appears to be factual. But in the given arrangement, they give a different impression than is intended. The solution will be to come up with a different summary. What about if this paragraph replaces them?:
With the appropriate wikilinks, does this work? Val42 06:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, the wording of the Testimony of 3 is indicative of a vision, not a physical viewing.
And Storm Rider, that Smith handled the plates can hardly be deemed a fact. Your continued tantrums and "I'm never speaking to you again"s are hardly conducive to productive discussion. --FreedominThought 07:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I think bcatt's latest edit does a pretty good job of explaining the different stated experiences of the witnesses while also including their relations to JS in an NPOV manner. My only suggestions are to maybe add "firsthand" to the 8 witnesses description to contrast it to the 3 witnesses account, and to remove the quotation marks around the second mention of "the three witnesses". It makes it almost look like scare quotes; we could just as well capitalize it, ie Three Witnesses, since that title was already defined in the previous sentence. Nice work, bcatt. -- FyzixFighter 04:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The criticism that the witnesses only saw the plates "in vision" (i.e., they weren't real) is effectively rebutted in Richard L. Anderson's classic work Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Deseret Book, 1981; LINK). Any claim that they didn't really see physical plates needs to deal with Anderson's extensive research, which includes quotes from the witnesses themselves denying that they only had a vision and affirming that the plates were a physical reality. If such quotes would be useful and appropriate for this article, I would be more than happy to provide them. -- MrWhipple 18:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, I don't think you're giving Bcatt the respect due to him. All he's asking for is for the sources to include more than just Mormons. That's not unreasonable, but your response is. Alienus 17:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
You know, the world is a lot bigger than pro-Mormonism and anti-Mormonism. Most people have never even heard of Mormonism in the first place, and those who have heard of it likely know little more than the Osmonds and the Tabernacle Choir. Frankly, when it comes to Mormonism, ignorance and apathy are the norm. Keep that in mind before you try to divide the world up into allies and enemies. Agreeing with bcatt on this matter does not make me your enemy. It makes me someone who disagrees on one particular matter. Take off your blinkers and tone down your hostility.
Now, some scholars of Mormonism are not pro or con; they just stick to the facts, regardless of where that leads them. However, when a scholar is clearly partisan, we have to recognize this and not pretend it's immaterial. . The fact that someone is biased colors the likelihood that their claims are factual and adding partisan scholars can upset POV neutrality, so we have to be careful. Alienus 18:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
If you were to say that the BoM is not the Bible, you'd be right. But that's not enough for you. Instead, you claim it's "completely independent", which is utter nonsense. Don't overstate your case to the point of error. Alienus 23:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Just by editing this section of the discussion, I get a length warning: "This page is 53 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size." Perhaps we should take this as a hint that this particular discussion is generating more heat than light. Remember, we're trying to decide on wording for a short summary for a section that is discussed in more detail on another page. Val42 01:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
We can probably archive any dead parts of this page. I was also looking at the article itself and noticed that it had a large section that hasn't been broken out yet, "Major teachings". Perhaps we can extract this into "Major teachings of Joseph Smith" or something, leaving a link and summary in the main article. What do you think? Alienus 06:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying the section is bad, just disproportionately large. For articles that are increasingly comprehensive over time, the idea is to break out self-sufficient sections into forked articles, then condense the original to a summary paragraph that links to the new main article for that subject. This is what I'm suggesting for "Major teachings". Alienus 08:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Like the "1827 to 1831" section, which is a summary that references the main article, Life of Joseph Smith, Jr. from 1827 to 1831. Alienus 17:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not really too sure what to do with this subsection. It seems poorly organized and difficult to read. I don't want to remove anything of worth, so I want to put anything I take out into the subarticle, but I'm not sure how exactly to do this without interrupting the flow of both articles. I removed the paragraph on the Danites in the main article (relatively unimportant, already in subarticle), and moved the quote about the trial to the subarticle, and added much clarification to the subsection. This sectino still needs work, however, so please tighten up the prose and make it more readable.
For your viewing pleasure, I give you my diff from this article, and my diff from the subarticle. I would like help on both, if possible. -- Trevdna 22:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I would restore this to Jesus Christ as I don't know what purpose of the change is, but because it was made by bcatt I am asking for comments. At the least one reference to Jesus Christ should be made because there is a distinction between Jesus and Jesus Christ in that the latter is a reference to Jesus as the Messiah. Trödel• talk 12:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
bcatt 21:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Ah, that would explain why I can't sit comfortably in this chair. On second thought, if I was your sockpuppet, I'd share your apparent anger towards Trödel. In fact, we've talked before, and he's reasonable even though he's wrong a lot we often disagree.
Alienus 17:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about? I understood him just fine. It's one thing to disagree, another to pretend that someone is babbling.
Bcatt has a very simple point: the guy's name is Jesus. Calling him "Christ" (except in the context of a quote or somesuch) is an endorsement of him as the Messiah, which is a POV incompatible with such things as Judaism, Islam and Bahai'i. It's not his last name, it's a religious title and that's not neutral. What part of this do you fail to understand? 01:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC) Alienus 01:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Then why are you arguing? No, wait, don't answer that. It was a rhetorical question. Let this drop. Alienus 01:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Needs to be researched and re-written. The lost tribes were not to reestablish Israel. Israel was reestablished by Jews from the tribe of Judah which was not one of the lost tribes.--FreedominThought 08:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... most of those major teachings (including this one) were added in by one person after a request for expansion. Do you think this one even needs to be there? It's not really that major... if there was a seperate article about this, it might be relevant, but as it is, it's pretty short and pointless. I would just say do away with it, and add it back in if there's ever a split off article. -- Trevdna 23:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Righto then. I removed it - don't think it will be missed, but if it is, feel free to put it back. -- Trevdna 15:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Quick References - I know taht there are news articles also stating this but can't find them quickly:
...they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. -History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 217
The saints were accused of being abolitionists and a threat to the status of the state of Missouri, then a slave state. Even from the 1900s to the 1940s, when there was a general segregation of Blacks from so-called white churches, there was no Church policy of racial segregation of blacks and whites in THE CHURCH of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. -D. Charles Pyle, Encyclopedia of Mormonism
Trödel• talk 01:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
These anons have included virtually identical bullet points to the 'Life in Missouri' section, which I object to, not only because I think they are of dubious POV (I worked a little on that), but because they don't seem to be the underlying factors for the violence. I have included the most recent versions below:
These DO deserve mention (some perhaps in the subarticle, if not here), but they seem to be effects, rather than underlying causes of violence.
Further, these anons have included the bolded text here: "In consequence of these reports, including sworn affadavits by ex-Mormons that the Mormons were planning to burn both Liberty and Richmond, Missouri, Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs issued an executive order known as the "Extermination Order" on 27 October 1838..."
If the person that included this is reading this, would they please do a favor and include a reference for this? - it seems to be out of place, as (even if it's true - I suspect it isn't, but it could be...) I'm sure that these reports would have included many other things in them as well. Thanks!-- Trevdna 15:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Note: if someone can provide a representative person or body to whom criticism of Smith's military and political involvement can be attributed, that would be dandy and more in keeping with proper NPOV (ie: I would like "by others" to read "by X (group)", "by others, such as Y (group or individual)", "by X (group), such as Y (group or individual)", or anything similar. bcatt 05:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I thought I saw a reference somewhere in the talk archives about a site with lots of free use images...at least I hope this was for this article or this may lead to a fruitless search. bcatt 07:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Some examples of POV in this article include (not a complete list):
In addition, not all of the issues raised in the previous debate were properly resolved, instead a diversion was created to prevent the discussion from resolving anything...let's keep on topic this time. That means no personal attacks, no edit warring to prevent the article from being properly tagged (because there is indeed an NPOV dispute, as this comment (and many previous comments by several other users) shows), no biting newcomers, no arguments based on POV (ie: this is what my religion says and my religion is the truth, so therefore this is the truth...that's faulty logic), no telling people they aren't knowledgable if they're not Mormon (or deeming another person knowledgable just because they are Mormon)...etc, etc, etc. My patience with these things is as thin as it's going to get, so I won't be as tolerant as I was with the first dispute.
Note: I am not necessarily expecting anyone else to do anything specific to the article, just making it clear that I intend to go through it like I did with the intro, and why; and inviting collaboration on this because that is how we make wikipedia work as it should...I am fairly comfortable with doing the edits myself, if need be, and will ask any questions I need to here or else do the necessary research, but collaboration would be the best way. bcatt 05:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry (not really) that you're jealous, and upset that I don't fit into your narrow view of women, but I'm not here to accomodate outdated and inhumane ideas...get over it. This is your last warning about the personal attacks. bcatt 08:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This time around, I find myself agreeing with bcatt; she has valid arguements because she has actually stated legitimate conerns that she has that are present throughout the article. I think Storm Rider is being sarcastic, and so I disagree with him. (Well, I would agree with him, if I'm wrong, and he is really sincere, but I doubt that.) As long as your (bcatt's) edits provide proper context (including pertinent wikilinks), and provide opposing POVs to current pieces of the article (rather than introducing new instances in Smith's life, just to add an Anti-Mormon POV - these are usually less relevant instances), I would support your work.
The reason I put the Kinderhook Plates section to the subarticle is mostly that it seemed to me a fairly irrevelant piece of information, and the MPOV could be more effectively corrected by simply adding opposing viewpoints to the things that are there now. (Also, that section did not include wikilinks, and I didn't want to deal with that in the main article - a lousy reason, but there it is.) This may have been an accidental POV fork, but I do not think it is a very relevant portion of Smith's life. I feel the best way to counter this MPOV is to add contrasting POVs to existing sections, or take out MPOV from the article as it stands. g However, I don't think the teachings section is as bad as it is made out to be. It speaks about what he taught; that is part of why he was important, and it has been implied that, yes, this is Smith's POV, but yes, this is necessary... But overall, the article does need work.
Bcatt, you had better be willing to take some extra special initiative on this one. We Mormons (myself included - I realize this!) here are not particularly interested in doing research that would go against our own God-given POV. Raul's 3rd law and its corollay explains this phenomenon fairly well.
Also his Razor (11th law) seems to back bcatt up on her allegations of POV in this article.
Bcatt - don't get discouraged by Storm Rider or anyone else! This article needs you! I have no sarcasm here, and truly wish you the best! I will be willing to help if I can. -- Trevdna 04:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good; you have my support. Alienus 19:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Trodel, you have accused It's Mormonlicious of being a sock puppet, to the extent of seeing yourself justified in using that as a sole excuse for reverting their edits (edits I might add, that had seemingly fine and appropriately descriptive edit summaries). However, you have failed to summon the common integrity required to state outright who you are accusing mormonlicious of being a sock puppet of and why. Yes, I'm sure most of us know the answer to this already, but it doesn't change the fact that if you are going to make these kinds of accusations, you need to at least do it in a responsible fashion. bcatt 08:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Then, pray tell, who's sock puppet do you think they are? We have been over this experience thing before in regard to FreedominThought...call up to your mind how the last accusations of this were addressed:
"Being an "experienced editor" and "established member of the wikipedia community", you should know better than to BITE the newcomers!...who is a sock puppet, and of whom?...be responsible for your vague accusations...As a matter of fact, some people, Trodel, like to learn how things work before jumping into it. I myself used Wikipedia for nearly an entire year before making my first edit and was relatively familiar by the time I did. Not all that "amazing", just a specific mode of learning and activity...it's called individuality...not everyone is exactly the same."
Do you honestly not think that blindly accusing someone of being a sock puppet (especially without specifying who the suspected puppeteer is) is not a personal form of weasel words? Do you not think it is more appropriate to leave a note on the talk page describing what weasel words are and requesting that the other user specify a critic or group of critics? Also, weasel words is beside the actual point anyway, as it was not Mormonlicious who added that phrase, and you changed words other than "Critics of the Church say"...please be sure in the future that your reasons are consistant with your actions. I'm not offended, anymore than I was offended by being accused of sock puppetry with FreedominThought...I think it's rather funny, actually. But I do not think it's funny that there is so much disruptive behaviour going on here, which is why I am addressing the issue. bcatt 18:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Do I understand you correctly that you are refusing to be responsible for your accusation? bcatt 03:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Responsible by stating clearly who you were accusing of having Mormonlicious as a sock puppet, as I already clearly indicated about 3 or 4 times. bcatt 19:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that evidence suggests that User:It's Mormonlicious is a sock puppet - especially based on contextual information (who knows whose sock puppet they are, but we'll track them down). The editor, registered two days ago, has a lot of information, not only about how Wikipedia works (lending others to believe that he has been registered before), but is very familar with the arguments and discussion of the page. Not that a new user cannot quickly gain this info, but it is unusual. Not that sock puppets really matter anyway. Ususally, the same argument over and over is still the same lame argument, and usually still doesn't lend to consensus of the experienced editors. There is no point to sock puppeting in a discussion like this - as it will not make a difference in the concensus gathering. I'll see if I can track down the IP address and compare to editors who have edited this page in the past three months. Not easy to do, but I'll track it down. - Visorstuff 21:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Who could have imagined that one single four-letter word written by Trödel in his edit summary would result in such rancor?
Lighten up, people! Put a sock over your madly-typing hands and cool off for a bit already! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.120.210.19 (
talk •
contribs) .
Holy Cow folks. All I said is that evidence lends that Mormonlicious is a sock puppet - which I am well aware of what one is, having been a Wikipedia admin longer than how long each of you have been editing on the wiki. In fact, you may want to read the definition yourself - "This account allows them to pose as a completely different user, sometimes to manufacture the illusion of support in a vote or argument" ( Internet sock puppet). This is what the purpose of It's Mormonlicious is trying to do, but again, as stated before, is not an effective means in this instance.
Also Bcatt - no need to get so defensive - I'm not attacking anyone, just trying to figure out who is editing this page, and in this instance, what It's Mormonlicious is trying to accomplish. As you know, the editing history on wikipedia is important context in working with editors. I DO consider Changing usernames on a whim to make a point and to be anonymous is unethical. I could care less about if they are a sock puppet, as stated above, but knowing who they are helps me better address and work with them.
Also, if you read my post, you'll notice that I did say it is possible for new users to quickly learn, but that is the exception, not the rule. In this case, evidence supports the sock puppet theory.
Lastly, you wrote: "You know, you aren't doing a very good job as an admin if you hold double standards based on what religion an editor is (something I've seen frm you in other issues on this article as well)..."
This is a personal attack directed towards me, although I do appreciate the feedback. However, I am curious: since when have I held anyone to a double standard? In fact, if I remember right, I rebuked Storm Rider for his treatment of you about a month ago. I've not defended Mormons or non-Mormons. I'd appreciate you taking this discussion to my talk page and citing examples of this, as I consider the use of my administrative status a very important thing, and I believe I've done a good job of keeping things neutral. Look at my outreach to editors who are not Mormon to get them to come and edit LDSM pages. You obviously don't know my editing and Wikipedia history as well as I know yours.
I'd investigate (and have in the past) if a Mormon was using a sock puppet to push a NPOV point across. I hold all to the same standard, and frankly am suprized at how defensive you've gotten everytime I've stepped in on this article to defend your point of view, help guide the discussion, and help keep a NPOV and your work with other editors. It is frankly immature to repay my offered help in this way (no offense meant, just stating the facts). I'd appreciate the same courtesy I've been trying to show you (not that I have even addressed you in some time). Have I even told you what my religious beliefs are? or are you just assuming? I look forward to a continuation of this discussion on my talk page. - Visorstuff 23:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Please move to my talk page. - Visorstuff 00:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I guess I have been around long enough that I think shorthand will work. These edits are inappropriate because they are not attributed but instead make use of weasel words to, as the style guide says, "give the illusion of neutral point of view..." There may be some critics who claim he falsified the BoM but they should be specifically identified and then paraphrased or quoted along with a link so that other editors can verify it. Use of the term falsified without attribution to a specific critic or providing a reference is not keeping with Wikipedia standards. Trödel• talk 13:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Understood - but the addition of a charged word "falsified" after "Critics ... regard..." takes advantage of the existing weasel words to disguize the POV that falsified implies as NPOV by attributing it to "critics" Trödel• talk 02:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello, Wikipedians,
I'm just a dabbler in wikipedia, but I've been watching this article with great interest for a couple of years now. The topic of Joseph Smith is one of the most controversial ones possible. Was he a prophet, as he claimed, or a fraud, as his opponents maintain? It's one or the other, folks (no, he wasn't insane). It's likely that a universal consensus on the matter will only occur at the world's "Game Over" event, should there be such a thing.
In the meantime, the debate rages on. And poor Wikipedia is a prime battleground. Almost everyone who might post to the article has a strong opinion on the matter. Often, those who believe he was a prophet have based their entire lifeview on this information. Others see believers as hopelessly deluded, and seek to show them their error.
It's a tug-o-war, NPOV rules or no NPOV rules.
What's the solution? Isn't the idea behind an encyclopedia to give the facts, and present reasonable, well-documented interpretations of them? But both sides will continue to fight over wording and nuances, literally until the end of the world. It will never please everybody, and since everybody can edit the document.... yikes.
Maybe divide the article into four parts:
"Joseph Smith, Jr.: The Facts" contains only docuemnted facts. What happened, according to who, what records show. Stuff that both sides can mostly agree on (there will always be the unreasonable fringe; ignore them).
"Joseph Smith, Jr.: The Fraud" holds material from the point of view of those who maintain that he was a fraud, or at least deluded.
"Joseph Smith, Jr.: The Prophet" holds material from the point of view of those who maintain that he was a prophet, or at least once was a prophet.
"Joseph Smith, Jr.: NPOV Summary" holds a smaller set of information, suitable for casual reading by those seeking a surface scan of who he was. Strict NPOV in here, of course.
I think this scheme might be possible, because all sides can have their say, without having to delete each others' content, step on each others' toes.
At least we can be grateful that Mormons aren't as touchy about their prophet as Islam. :) Wadsworth 21:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I do realize that the article size is now increased by 1kb, but as I have stated numerous times, one of my goals here is to touch on all the major points, describing them as briefly as possible, while moving all the finer details to sub articles...it is not uncommon for an issue to temporarily increase just prior to it's decrease.
I also realize that there is bound to be much hate directed at me (and attempts to start an edit war) for referring to Smith's practice of polygamy, but there is a lot of evidence that this occured, and little to no evidence (besides Smith's own word - which is not really evidence) that it didn't occur. And, in fact, Smith contradicts himself by claiming publicly that he did not practice it, while the D&C (a section which came from Smith's own mouth) specifically says: Joseph {Smith, Jr.} is allowed to practice polygamy in the name of God, so don't try to stop him or punish him for it.
The link provided here goes to the following verse:
"Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God."
which is immediately followed by the two verses linked to in the new intro:
"And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified."
It is pretty obvious that this is a "commandment" that Smith is justified in committing polygamy. Regardless of whether or not he practiced it, he did indeed teach it, whether it came from God or not, Smith taught that polygamy was an acceptable, and even preferable, practice among those in the Mormon priesthood, which is shown in other parts of Mormon texts (which I don't have handy atm), that say that it is preferable to breed like crazy...much easier to do that if you can have several women pregnant at once, wouldn't you say?
Smith did indeed have several wives, one who was 14 and whom Smith prevented from marrying the man she actually loved so that Smith could marry her. In fact, he proposed to many young girls, often successfully, threatening them with eternal damnation if the refused...which, at that time was considered a form of rape (and sill is, in some areas) - not that Smith cared what the "Gentile laws" were. Not only this, but he also married sisters, teenagers that were his legal wards and therefore his parental responsibility. He also married his sister-in-law. The list goes on. Apologists who admit Mormon polygamy claim that Emma was "supportive" of Smith's polygyny, and fail to mention that she only became "supportive" after Smith suddenly "had a revelation" that God would destroy Emma if she did not comply.
As for DNA proof that Smith fathered children by anyone other than Emma: not finding live people in the current day with DNA matching Smith's does not mean that Smith did not father children by anyone else, it just means that no descendants of Smith have been discovered (if a grown child attempts to find their absent father through DNA, yet does not discover who their father is, does that mean that they have no father? Obviously faulty logic). I find it funny though that the Mormon church claims the lack of DNA evidence (because there is plenty of other evidence) shows that Smith did not have sex with his plural wives (when they even admit that he had plural wives), yet the actual, acquired DNA evidence that American Indians are of Asian ancestry somehow does not show that American Indians are not of middle eastern descent (as claimed by Smith and the Mormon church in his stead). Interesting...very "interesting". bcatt 01:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
In fact, polygamy was as illegal then as it is now, which is why he lied about it. As to it not being against the "law of God":
It's faulty logic, since there is no proof that there actually is a God in the first place. A 14 year old is not a consenting adult, and anyone who is manipulated with threats into a situation they do not want to be in is not consenting regardless of their age...again, faulty logic. Actually, the 14 year old did not insist on being sealed to him, she did not want to marry him, and she had a sweetheart before Smith forced himself on her. Evidence shows that he did have sex with the 14 year old that he forced into marriage and that she was rather distraught over the situation. My agenda is to have this article tell the truth and not be used as a recruitment vehicle...you can use the Mormon wiki for that. bcatt 23:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys.
I changed the header. NOW OMG don't revert me. What happened to the old header? That was a good header, I'ma change it back more like that was. brb la cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 10:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Also I've been reading the first two paragraphs of the Early life section. Is there a reason we're mostly being like, "Ya he said something like this and his mom said something like this" when we could be using the real quotes? cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 11:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Why do I call this vandalism?
Why do I call this trolling?
Changing it back for the following reasons:
This edit has the following effect:
bcatt 15:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have just finished reading the articles:
Muhammad,
Martin Luther,
John Calvin, and
Charles Taze Russell. None of these articles approach the topic with the vehemently negative POV that Bcatt and her ilk, those of similar persuasion. All four individuals were just a controversial in their day as Joseph Smith was in his. Bcatt attempts to hid behind a veil of NPOV, but she perverts it very principles in order to achieve her own POV. I encourage each editor on this page to read each article and then pattern this article in a similar manner. The POV axe lies solely in Bcatts hands. I label her anti-Mormon because she proves her axe grinding ways simply by her arguments and desire to turn this article into something that is not found anywhere else on WIKI. If she were honest she would step forward in state that she is anti-Mormon rather than hiding behind her constant statment, "I am only trying to make this article meet NPOV standards". Poppycock, no other article meets the standards she desires.
Storm Rider
(talk) 20:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this article is well served by personalising any dispute that may have arisen here. Please especially, try to avoid such obviously unnecessary escalating steps like dragging in commentary on essentially unrelated matters, and of broad-brush statements about "the opposition". In short, WP:NPA. Alai 00:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I may be new to WIKI, but could someone please answer Storm Rider's question? I just went to those article and they are nothing like this page for Joseph Smith. Why should this page be treated differently? Is an encyclopeic article to inform the reader about the topic, in this case the founder of Mormonism, or is the purpose of the article to proselyte why no one should ever give Mormonism a second thought? If this is just a stage for anti-Mormonism and people who are against others, I don't think I will be interested in participating. It is a shame and seems like a loss of something that offers so much potential. 12.158.102.191 16:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)