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I'm confused by the seemingly multiple references to the Urim and Thummim. Section 1.1 seems to imply that they're "seer stones" from before he got the plates. Section 1.2 indicates that he received that they're a pair of spectacles he got from Moroni, and doesn't mention whether he got them before he got the plates or at the time that he got the plates. Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. says that they were stones he get from Moroni when he got the plates. -- Creidieki 19:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I've left the following on Dradamh's talk page. He has not yet responded.
Visor, I am just now reading Bushman's biography of Joseph Smith and early on he only referred to it as a refreshment stand or cart; he did not say beer and cake stand. The "tone" of an article is important and the use of words easily leads one to either a positive or negative position. You know that I have resisted many of these comments being included because it simply does not directly add to the quality of the article, but rather leads to further questions and false iimpressions. In encyclopedic articles that is unnecessary. This is an editorial conflict rather than a conflict of facts primarily for me. Storm Rider 23:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The "cakes and beer" statement is taken out of context from a book that is deliberately hostile towards Joseph Smith. All quotes from that book must be carefully considered. Many statements are inconsistent with quotes of people whjo were more familiar with Joseph Smith and his life.
The Smith family were hard workers, intelligent people, but not highly educated. They apparently prayed as a family every morning and evening, enjoyed singing hymns, read the Bible together, and were very interested in religion. The boys enjoyed homemade sports such as playing ball, wrestling, and pulling sticks. One neighbor described Joseph as "a real clever, jovial boy"; another neighbor said that the Smiths were "the best family in the neighborhood in case of sickness," and said that Young Joe, as he called him, worked for him "and he was a good worker" (William H. and E. L. Kelley interviews, Saints' Herald [1881], 161–68, quoted in Richard L. Anderson, "A Corrected View of Joseph Smith's New York Reputation").
Here is Tucker's description of the Smith family, "they were popularly regarded as an illiterate, whisky-drinking, shiftless, irreligious race of people -- the first named, the chief subject of this biography, being unanimously voted the laziest and most worthless of the generation." He says this of a family that was decidedly against alcohol and widely known for religious natures. Can we really believe anything in his book? [By User:Dradamh, last edit 18:05 UTC, Dec 5, 2005 - Cookiecaper 00:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)]
Dradamh, WIKI is a place for scholarly articles about topics of interest. Religion is difficult given that they are topics of faith and often the topics of considerable debate. If an editor wishes to cite information printed in a book, it is acceptable on WIKI regardless of being "position". However, I agree that some books are reputable research and some are just plain tripe not worthy of being repeated. We must be careful that we are neutral as much as possible rather than producing articles that are skewed and overly positive. Storm Rider 00:28, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I feel like this can be shortened up quite a bit, if not removed entirely. The assassination attempt on Boggs is interesting but not really a major event in Smith's life and doesn't really add much to the article; maybe it's better placed at Porter Rockwell or somewhere else. Removal of the section would result in a file size of 44kb, a change of only two kilobytes. I don't want to make such a big removal without consulting the other editors, so please leave your thoughts. Cookiecaper 14:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I see that there are spinoff articles about Smith dealing with all the major events of his life except the period 1831 to 1844 (Kirtland, Nauvoo, plural marriage, etc.). Should there be a separate spinoff article for that period? It would make sense to me. Comments? -- FeanorStar7 01:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
This section is painfully lacking - there could be an entire article on it (although most of these would be similar to or the same as a hypothetical Beliefs of Mormonism article). Please help me work on this one. -- Trevdna 17:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
So we agree that we will add more information to this section before we do anything else with it? -- Trevdna 18:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
There is an extensive collection of photographs and artwork prominently featuring Joseph Smith at the Church's website, josephsmith.net . I think you have to have Flash for this to work, but it's a very good resource. You guys should check it out. cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 03:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
In the interest of NPOV this article should indicate neither belief nor scepticism with regard to the nature of Smith's visions. I feel that the multiple references to him being "allowed to find" the plates indicate a positive bias and that the reference should be changed to something along the lines of "claimed to have found". Euchrid 07:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this contribution by him, found here, are correct, or not. Would someone please factcheck? Thank you. -- Trevdna 15:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
The "Plural marriage" section isn't well written at all, either. I'm going to take the entire thing out - if anyone wants to do anything to it, it can be found at the new article, which is not quite so visible. Also, it will not become the object of POV contributions (such as those from 69.242.151.90). -- Trevdna 18:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Joseph Smith Jr. never taught plural marriage. In fact, the article should stress that fact, and possibly link to Brigham Young for a discussion of plural marriage and Mormonism. -- Nerd42 23:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Joseph Smith Jr Tells His Own Story is the name of a pamphlet in which Smith describes his experience(s) he claimed to have. I think this pamphlet really helps clear up alot of misunderstandings about what Smith actually said, since he wrote it himself. (i.e. the pamplet doesn't claim to be a revelation itself, so saying Smith wrote it himself would not be POV in this case) Therefore, this pamphlet ought to be cited when dealing with questions as to Smith's actual views and claimed experiences. So, unless anyone can find documentation discrediting this source, I plan to use it on Wikipedia for this purpose. Any objections? Questions? Comments? Has anyone else brought this up before? -- Nerd42 23:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Having a long history within the church it is readily apparent to me that the entire article is biased toward history as presented by the Church which has been heavily censored and changed. Reviewing the editing history, it appears any changes actively maintain the pro-Church bias a la FARMS and other Church publicity machines. It basically avoids any of the controversial and damning bits of history that discredit Smith and show the side of his character that the Church won't tell you about because that would, by the Church's own admission, call into question the veracity of the Church. To be a neutral article, it should demonstrate Smith's claims, detractor's claims and pertinent historical fact for both. As it is, most of the article states Smith's claims, or rather the Church's assertions about Smith, as if they were fact. The myriad of Church publications cited for the article should be indicative of the bias. I can only assume this article is being tended by Church interests at the expense of neutrality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.125.118.151 ( talk • contribs) .
ALSO, claiming something is NOPV without explaining your reasoning is unacceptable. None of your above comments explains your reasons or motivations except for Saint; unfortunately, that demonstrates a marked lack of understanding of the subject. I have reverted the NPOV until you have explained your reasonings. Storm Rider 06:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
It obviously would help to explain the proper use of labeling an NPOV dispute:
Notice BCATT that you have not followed proper procedure; most importantly you have not clearly and exactly explained which part of the article does not see to meet NPOV policy and WHY. Broad accusations such as, "There are many opposing views regarding mormonisn not expressed here, and therefore the article is heavily biased and I am going to restore the NPOV tag." You have said nothing, but made an accusation. If you do not follow policy I will delete the label tomorrow evening. Storm Rider 07:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Notice STORM RIDER that you are trying to WP:OWN this article, and you are not giving a very good impression of interest in NPOV by nit picking silly things, with an obvious intention of attempting to demean me. Kindly note and accept that (from: NPOV)
bcatt 08:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I see this article and it's forks as presenting much information that is rumor and induendo. To be called biased towards CJC is just unreasonable. It presents information which follows NPOV, it uses sympathetic language to describe the positions of JS detractors etc. It may need improvement but if you think there isn't a critical historical treatment of JS's life you need to read more of the links. This article can not cover every detail but needs to focus on an overview of JS life in order to stay encyclopedic i.e. a well written succinct article. Trödel talk 12:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I have absolutely no problem with "Latter day saints" "LDS" "Smith's followers"...ANYTHING that is not a term which misleads any non-mormon (such as with just plain "Saints"). Whether it is used by non-mormon church scholars or not (even if it is used by non-church scholars), it is a clearly deliberate tool to amplify the importance of the LDS church, and something that indefinitely points out who is being referred to is most certainly at need here. It is the EXACT same practice that would also be used in any non-religious article, for purposes of clarity. I did not say that the lack of NPOV sources discredited the current sources, just that it is clearly stated in policy that sources should be balanced according to relevance; and I think that since the article is about Smith, but there are FAR more people in the world that DON'T believe in Smith's word, than there are mormons, both should get an equal balance, especially since NONE of Smith's religious claims can actually be proven. I didn't however notice any non-church references...do you mind showing me which one(s)?
In pretty much every Latter Day Saint denomination I've heard of, members are called "saints". Having a capital "S" probably wouldn't be NPOV, but using the term "saints" is NPOV because that's simply what church members are called. Furthermore, saints have been known to misbehave from the beginning, so though using the term may look weird to a catholic, saying someone is a saint in a Latter Day Saint sense does not imply that they are different from anybody else or that their ideas are more correct. -- Nerd42 17:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's purpose (aside from being editable by anyone) is to present a NPOV to the average reader, and I hate to break it to you folks, but mormons are NOT the average reader. The average reader is NOT going to come to "Saints" and go "oh, it's capitalized, it must mean something different than saints"...another thing that'll probably be hard for y'all to take is that Catholicism has been around a LOT longer and this use of "saint" is WAY more ingrained in humanity's head than the mormon reference to themselves as saints. bcatt 17:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Storm for the compliment - it's a necessity when living in Boulder ;). I've tried to further address issues 1-3 (building on Storm Rider's initiative), 10 and a few others further down. I hope that the corrections for 3 haven't taken it too far the other way, and I'm not sure I like my wording in the priesthood section (issue 10). Honestly I wanted to make the sentence simply say they baptized each other, but I was trying to be true to what I thought the first editor was trying to convey. Good luck on addressing issue 4 - I can't come up with anything at the moment. As for rounding out the references list, could some of you editors who have been around point me to the relevant discussions in the archives concerning this list. Some books that I think could round out the list are "JS: rough stone rolling" by Bushman (also mentioned at the top of the talk page), "Joseph Smith" by Remini, and maybe something from Jan Shipps. -- FyzixFighter 00:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Storm rider's behaviour in regard to this dispute is horrendous, storm rider is intentionally inflammatory (otherwise known as trolling). And when storm rider finally succeeds in pissing off another user, other Morons are brought in to reprimand. You DO NOT own this article. It is NOT up to you what edits stay or don't. In addition to what is happening here, I have been harrased, vandalized, and trolled on my talk page by both storm rider and trodel. You quote wiki policy but REFUSE to follow it yourself. Mormons need to stop having such a strong presence in this article until there is a larger non-mormon presence built up. This inequality is why the article is biased. I am bringing in outside help, since the mormons have built a near impenetrable wall around this article, which EXPRESSLY VIOLATES WIKIPEDIA POLICY. SHAME ON YOU! bcatt 07:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The first thing that needs to happen is that there needs to be a ban (from this article only) of any number of pro-LDSers that is greater than the number neutrals and anti-LDSers, and the LDSers need to be regulated as to their OWNing behaviour of the article and their attacks on anyone who attempts to inject neutrality into it. I am seriously at the end of my rope with this and will do whatever it takes to see that the mormon wikipedia presence stops lording over this article. bcatt 07:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC) Note: what I mean is that if there are, say, 5 neutrals and 2 anti's, there can be no more than 5 mormons (not 7).
This page is on RFC so I peeked in. The issue of calling people saints seems to be resolved. Is there another issue that is still ongoing? Or is it the polygamy issue below? Cuñado - Talk 17:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
It's been more of a general ongoing issue. The article currently does not represent many of the non-mormon views needed to create a well-rounded npov artcile. There has been a problem with non-mormon editors being heavily discouraged from editing, and a very overbearing mrmon presence deciding what can and cannot go into the article. It seems to have improved at least somewhat since I announced I was going to bring in an outside source (the RfC), and perhaps has improved slightly more since I did list it...but it is perhaps too early to tell, I may just be feeling more hopeful about it. I am hoping to attract a larger number of neutral and opposing standpoints so the article can get evened out, as it appears I am the only non-mormon editor sticking around at the moment and I started getting frustrated to the point of starting to get dragged into the negative behaviour used here to deter unwanted editors. I listed some of the immediate concerns regarding mormon biased POV already in the article (look for the numbered sections above), but only in the first two sections, hoping that people would get the idea and take it past those two sections, but so far that hasn't happened. Furthermore, I was repeatedly accused of being too unknowledgable to edit the article, yet told that if I wanted it more npov, I should do it myself. So far, every edit I have made has been reverted at least once, without being supported by the explaination that I was demanded to give for just suggesting that changes be made. I am also trying to stress here that it is important for church sources and links to be balanced with non church sources and links, as there is only one non-church source and no non-church links at this time. I guess that pretty much sums it up from my perspective, everything else is summed up in the extremely long "discussion" above. I would like to note that it would be easier to assume good faith if pro-mormon editors were willing to add in representations of alternate views themselves, instead of trying to keep them out of the article altogether. bcatt 18:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you've read the preceeding dispute because I have in fact mentioned a lot more than just the polygamy/polygyny issue. bcatt 19:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Cunado, I hope you stick around for a while and please read the discussion page; nothing is more enlightening than the evidence itself. Rants can be one of my weaknesses, but I typcially do so if I believe an impact can be made. I have learned that in this instance everything that is said goes right by with no impact whatsoever. Going so far as to want to limit the number of "pro-Mormon" editors; has anyone ever suggested limiting editors on any article? I have chocked this one up to something that must be endured. After a long period we will get through it, but I look forward to individuals who assist such as yourself. Bcatt seems incapable of assuming that any of the editors with a long-term interaction on this article can be trusted; Mormon and non-Mormon alike. Thanks for your willingness to assist. Storm Rider 19:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This is absolutely disgusting. EVERY article should provide equal representation of ALL views. Censorship is NOT acceptable. If you remove the details I added, then you must also remove as much detail from the pro-mormon POV. If what I added is mentioned in the sub article, then why does this article contradict by claiming that the reasons aren't known? Of course, this question is going to be ignored, as all valid questions are on this page. bcatt 20:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This is among the most biased articles I have read on Wikipedia, perhaps to the point of being dubious. The article would be better served posted in a pamphlet. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.134.0.40 ( talk • contribs) .
Some editors have remarked on the seemingly one-sidedness of the resource list. To that end I wanted to create this section to propose additional sources not previously mentioned that could be used to add variety to list. I've only got one at the moment:
Bcatt, I noticed that in one of the posts above you said you have used some impartial sources as part of you're arguments. Maybe I missed them or misunderstood that statement (maybe these were sources in reference to wiki policy and not JS), but I can't seem to find where you state what those sources are. Would you mind sharing/repeating these sources on JS? -- FyzixFighter 07:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I just did a quick check of the resources listed and here's what I came up with:
For what it's worth, there's the general break down. Did I get any wrong? -- FyzixFighter 06:55, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
People really need to look at what I've brought up there, as it applies to all Wikipedia's articles on Joseph Smith Jr. -- Nerd42 15:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
bcatt, I was rereading the article in full per my promise on your talk page. I thought that change was benign. Now that I see that is about the only substantive change you have made - I understand your frustration - that was not my intent. You have accused me of personal attacks and being irrational; as well as assumed that my edits were made in bad fath - please - that is not the way to come to concensus.
Finally, as to the merits, Polygyny is specifically what was practiced. Your argument that it must be polygamy because gamy has an etomology of marriage is unpersuasive. Second, polygamy is also linked to and used int he second sentence. Third, JS was not accused of being one of 2 husbands, but only of specifically polygyny i.e. having multiple wives. Trödel talk 15:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Plural wives in Mormon history is quite different from what society at large may think it means. Plural marriage is should be understood in the context of eternity an perspective. Joseph was "sealed" to many different women. Being sealed to another individual is defined as having the ability of being bonded throughout eternity. It is not known how many of the women to which Joseph was sealed lived with Joseph as a typical man and wife. Many think that the majority of his marriages were sealings only...i.e. they did not live as man and wife. It would be a mistake to think that Joseph was only sealed to all of his plural wives. Bushman's recent book cites that Joseph did appear to have sexual relations with some of them. There is a DNA project ongoing trying to determine if there are any descendants of Joseph Smith from these marriages; no progeny have yet been identified. Storm Rider 16:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
That said (above), this article has reached 50 kb, which is a size generally recommended to be split. Yes, I realize it is already split. And I also noticed, when examining what would be involved in shortening this article, that the "Early life" article is itself 55 kb, and is also split up...I imagine the rest of the articles high on the "tree" (or low, depending on how you look at it) are similarly getting too large. I have some ideas for streamlining the parts that are elaborated later...there's a lot of deep description of things here that is also described in sub articles...BUT, I have another idea that might be interesting to try first. I'm not sure if it's been done before or if it's an acceptable way to arrange things within the bounds of wikipedias policy and manual of style, but here is what I propose:
This story has been given numerous tellings (Newell and Avery, Mormon Enigman, 41-44, and Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon, 114-118 are others). The basics are as follows and quoted from Bushman's Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling, 178:
Motivations for this event as recounted by Symonds Ryder, I believe a participant in the event, felt that Joseph was plotting to take property from its members and he was determined not to allow it to continue and without impunity. Accordingly, a company of citizens was gathered from surrounding communities and proceeded to the Johnson home to rid the country of Smith.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Storm Rider ( talk • contribs) .
Isn't that funny, you don't need any evidence to support outrageous accounts of visions and all manner of things that are controversial in their very existance, yet you don't approve of any evidence that suggests that a person or some people probably did something or things that people are generally known to do on a rather regular basis...this is not suspicious in the least. bcatt
Because someone does not agree with your personal opinion does not mean they are getting on your case. You are personalizing something that is not personal. Now that you have taken the "objective" person's view's ( Talk) and let them know what an idiot they are because they don't happen to agree with every whim that you dream up...take a break, read the entire discussion page again and seek to understand everyone else's comments rather than defend your point of view. You rode in on high horse, reported three people (Storm Rider, Trodel, and Cookiecaper) because they did not roll over and let you run rough shod over an article where you have demonstrated limited knowledge. Your methods will not bear fruit; isn't obvious? Take a breather and take one step at a time. You can achieve your objectives, but when you show a total lack of respect for the vast amount of cooperative work done by others you weaken your position. Everyone will react as much to your methods as to the content of your position. Storm Rider 01:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
accusers are often motivated by a desire to defend a particular Internet project, and references to an Internet user as a troll might not be based on the actual goals of the person so named (but rather may be the intention of the accuser themselves).
"Please do not feed the troll"
It appears that we have gone as far as we can with this. From now on this troll should be ignored and we need to withold all food. I am the worst offender and will desist from further interaction. However, that does not mean that the article is not in need of further improvements. Let's look objectively at balance to make sure that opinions and history is not presented as fact when the life of JS is the subject. Also, let's make sure that all related articles are clearly marked and their subjects are included in this article. This troll just fed their last here. Storm Rider 02:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Cookiecaper - it was solely frustration on Bcatt's part - at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts. Bcatt, regarding your complaint - specifically about your daughter's photo, please remove photos from your page if you don't want any comments about them - and i'm suprised that you got so upset at a compliment for one of them. It is being noted by admins and others. You may want to discuss issues with an admin or even mediation prior to making wikiettiquite alerts - which do no good. Please note that there are a number of different editors that you have interacted with on this page, and not all are LDS, and all have tried to help you. You are obviously frustrated, and as an admin, I'd recommend taking a wikiholiday. The editors who work on LDS-related articles for the most part bend over backward to try to include all viewpoints - they are much easier to work with than those in other religious groups when it comes to NPOV and not being over-protective. Try editing about the Moonies or Jehovah Witnesses or Catholic pages - or even human for that matter. I do have to say, that some of your arguments do not make sense, while others are valid. Work to provide better sources, documentation and such and you will be more successful in influencing others who are or are not better educated on the topic. One last thing - anonymous users are not taken as seriously and are often discounted, etc. As has been disucssed elsewhere, they have no credibility and should not be taken as seriously. It is frequent that anons are sock puppets, or have agendas that do not lend to wikipedia's goals. And it is too easy to register an account so the rest of us can better track your edits. If the anon wants to register an account please do. If not, you will be continued to not be taken seriously. Not meaning anything by this, but that is how the culture of the wiki works. I do suggest a wikiholiday from this page.
Cookiecaper - I actually think you did a good job in trying to bring civility back to this discussion and am dissapointed that Bcatt suggested that you were involved when you were trying to help. Cookiecaper - keep trying to work with these guys.
Stormrider, perhaps this is getting to the point of wikiholiday from this page for a few days?
Bcatt, i'd suggest an apology to cookiecaper in the spirit of good will, as I know you were frustrated when you wrote it, but looking at the history it was unfounded. Such a move will help cool things down.
All: I'd actually like to hear an arguement as to why this page should not be protected. I'm glad you've kept the "war" to the talk page, but there are some deep-rooted issues that need to be resolved before more edits are made to the article. I will try to do a better job at moderating this page and helping to guide discussion. - Visorstuff 22:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, why is it that it is okay for others to make sweeping generalizations such as "some of your arguments do not make sense", when I am criticized as being vague when I say that many opposing views not represented in the article (even though everyone already knows what those opposing views are). Honestly, people here need to start practicing what they preach. bcatt 23:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
"Conduct themselves maliciously"? Care to explain? "The community" is ALL of wikipedia's editors, not just the ones that want to own this article. And, if you looked at my history on wikipedia, you would see that my contributions are extensive, high quality, and respectable. bcatt 00:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I did make an earlier suggestion on this size issue in an attempt to move past these other issues and just get on with editing and raising the quality and clarity of this article, but I will paraphrase it here:
This article is very large, the sub articles are also very large and even those may need to be broken down and subbed. As per NPOV, any pro view expressed in this or any sub artcile needs to be accompanied by it's opposing view(s)...but I really think that this article should serve more as laying down a timeline and introducing the fact that there are all these sub articles and what they contain, rather than arguing the merits of each view. The introduction seems very good, though I would like to wikify Christianity and possibly a few other words. I'm not going to go through and make suggestions for the whole article, but I'd like to give an example using the first section:
The first paragraph seems good. The second could maybe be shortened to just comment on JS's retrospectiveness, leaving the quote for the more detailed article and combining the following short paragraph about the family's other activities into one paragraph. The language in the next paragraph is confusing as to whether the theophany and Moroni incident are the same event...and the whole thing could be shortened to just mention his account of being directed to find the plates and other artifacts without going into detail about where they were reported to be or how or when they were reported have been put there, etc. The first sentence of the following paragraph can be added into this paragraph in a summarized way. Not sure if the next paragraph could be further summarized as it flows from his activities in the meantime to his marriage to Emma Hale, though some of the details could probably be saved for sub articles. In the final paragraph, the part about the additional visits seems like it belongs in the previous paragraph, but otherwise seems fairly succinct...maybe a few finer details could be saved for sub articles.
If this is done for each section, the article should be able to be shortened enough to keep it within the suggested size guidelines without losing the basic idea of the events covered in each sub article. The legacy and teachings sections seem very nicely summarized. As a side note...can somebody please comment about the double use of the same picture? And I think someone mentioned putting the timeline box at the bottom of the article (or was that a different article), which seems to have it's pro's and con's, but even if it was at the bottom, it seems very strange to have the same image twice...I haven't seen this occur in any other article. Personally, I like the oval one further down in Kirtland and wonder why this one isn't used in one of these boxes? (Unsigned by User:Bcatt
I don't see any discussion relating to these suggestions (particularly discussion involving non-LDS members). "Community consensus" on wikipedia does not translate to "approval by a faction controlling an article". I don't see how these suggestions can possibly be controversial and so it seems this is just another case of rejecting my suggestions personally, or rejecting any suggestions from anyone outside the faction. As an admin, you should be well aware that this is not an acceptable way to conduct things. bcatt 00:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I'm confused by the seemingly multiple references to the Urim and Thummim. Section 1.1 seems to imply that they're "seer stones" from before he got the plates. Section 1.2 indicates that he received that they're a pair of spectacles he got from Moroni, and doesn't mention whether he got them before he got the plates or at the time that he got the plates. Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. says that they were stones he get from Moroni when he got the plates. -- Creidieki 19:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I've left the following on Dradamh's talk page. He has not yet responded.
Visor, I am just now reading Bushman's biography of Joseph Smith and early on he only referred to it as a refreshment stand or cart; he did not say beer and cake stand. The "tone" of an article is important and the use of words easily leads one to either a positive or negative position. You know that I have resisted many of these comments being included because it simply does not directly add to the quality of the article, but rather leads to further questions and false iimpressions. In encyclopedic articles that is unnecessary. This is an editorial conflict rather than a conflict of facts primarily for me. Storm Rider 23:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The "cakes and beer" statement is taken out of context from a book that is deliberately hostile towards Joseph Smith. All quotes from that book must be carefully considered. Many statements are inconsistent with quotes of people whjo were more familiar with Joseph Smith and his life.
The Smith family were hard workers, intelligent people, but not highly educated. They apparently prayed as a family every morning and evening, enjoyed singing hymns, read the Bible together, and were very interested in religion. The boys enjoyed homemade sports such as playing ball, wrestling, and pulling sticks. One neighbor described Joseph as "a real clever, jovial boy"; another neighbor said that the Smiths were "the best family in the neighborhood in case of sickness," and said that Young Joe, as he called him, worked for him "and he was a good worker" (William H. and E. L. Kelley interviews, Saints' Herald [1881], 161–68, quoted in Richard L. Anderson, "A Corrected View of Joseph Smith's New York Reputation").
Here is Tucker's description of the Smith family, "they were popularly regarded as an illiterate, whisky-drinking, shiftless, irreligious race of people -- the first named, the chief subject of this biography, being unanimously voted the laziest and most worthless of the generation." He says this of a family that was decidedly against alcohol and widely known for religious natures. Can we really believe anything in his book? [By User:Dradamh, last edit 18:05 UTC, Dec 5, 2005 - Cookiecaper 00:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)]
Dradamh, WIKI is a place for scholarly articles about topics of interest. Religion is difficult given that they are topics of faith and often the topics of considerable debate. If an editor wishes to cite information printed in a book, it is acceptable on WIKI regardless of being "position". However, I agree that some books are reputable research and some are just plain tripe not worthy of being repeated. We must be careful that we are neutral as much as possible rather than producing articles that are skewed and overly positive. Storm Rider 00:28, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I feel like this can be shortened up quite a bit, if not removed entirely. The assassination attempt on Boggs is interesting but not really a major event in Smith's life and doesn't really add much to the article; maybe it's better placed at Porter Rockwell or somewhere else. Removal of the section would result in a file size of 44kb, a change of only two kilobytes. I don't want to make such a big removal without consulting the other editors, so please leave your thoughts. Cookiecaper 14:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I see that there are spinoff articles about Smith dealing with all the major events of his life except the period 1831 to 1844 (Kirtland, Nauvoo, plural marriage, etc.). Should there be a separate spinoff article for that period? It would make sense to me. Comments? -- FeanorStar7 01:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
This section is painfully lacking - there could be an entire article on it (although most of these would be similar to or the same as a hypothetical Beliefs of Mormonism article). Please help me work on this one. -- Trevdna 17:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
So we agree that we will add more information to this section before we do anything else with it? -- Trevdna 18:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
There is an extensive collection of photographs and artwork prominently featuring Joseph Smith at the Church's website, josephsmith.net . I think you have to have Flash for this to work, but it's a very good resource. You guys should check it out. cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 03:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
In the interest of NPOV this article should indicate neither belief nor scepticism with regard to the nature of Smith's visions. I feel that the multiple references to him being "allowed to find" the plates indicate a positive bias and that the reference should be changed to something along the lines of "claimed to have found". Euchrid 07:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this contribution by him, found here, are correct, or not. Would someone please factcheck? Thank you. -- Trevdna 15:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
The "Plural marriage" section isn't well written at all, either. I'm going to take the entire thing out - if anyone wants to do anything to it, it can be found at the new article, which is not quite so visible. Also, it will not become the object of POV contributions (such as those from 69.242.151.90). -- Trevdna 18:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Joseph Smith Jr. never taught plural marriage. In fact, the article should stress that fact, and possibly link to Brigham Young for a discussion of plural marriage and Mormonism. -- Nerd42 23:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Joseph Smith Jr Tells His Own Story is the name of a pamphlet in which Smith describes his experience(s) he claimed to have. I think this pamphlet really helps clear up alot of misunderstandings about what Smith actually said, since he wrote it himself. (i.e. the pamplet doesn't claim to be a revelation itself, so saying Smith wrote it himself would not be POV in this case) Therefore, this pamphlet ought to be cited when dealing with questions as to Smith's actual views and claimed experiences. So, unless anyone can find documentation discrediting this source, I plan to use it on Wikipedia for this purpose. Any objections? Questions? Comments? Has anyone else brought this up before? -- Nerd42 23:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Having a long history within the church it is readily apparent to me that the entire article is biased toward history as presented by the Church which has been heavily censored and changed. Reviewing the editing history, it appears any changes actively maintain the pro-Church bias a la FARMS and other Church publicity machines. It basically avoids any of the controversial and damning bits of history that discredit Smith and show the side of his character that the Church won't tell you about because that would, by the Church's own admission, call into question the veracity of the Church. To be a neutral article, it should demonstrate Smith's claims, detractor's claims and pertinent historical fact for both. As it is, most of the article states Smith's claims, or rather the Church's assertions about Smith, as if they were fact. The myriad of Church publications cited for the article should be indicative of the bias. I can only assume this article is being tended by Church interests at the expense of neutrality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.125.118.151 ( talk • contribs) .
ALSO, claiming something is NOPV without explaining your reasoning is unacceptable. None of your above comments explains your reasons or motivations except for Saint; unfortunately, that demonstrates a marked lack of understanding of the subject. I have reverted the NPOV until you have explained your reasonings. Storm Rider 06:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
It obviously would help to explain the proper use of labeling an NPOV dispute:
Notice BCATT that you have not followed proper procedure; most importantly you have not clearly and exactly explained which part of the article does not see to meet NPOV policy and WHY. Broad accusations such as, "There are many opposing views regarding mormonisn not expressed here, and therefore the article is heavily biased and I am going to restore the NPOV tag." You have said nothing, but made an accusation. If you do not follow policy I will delete the label tomorrow evening. Storm Rider 07:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Notice STORM RIDER that you are trying to WP:OWN this article, and you are not giving a very good impression of interest in NPOV by nit picking silly things, with an obvious intention of attempting to demean me. Kindly note and accept that (from: NPOV)
bcatt 08:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I see this article and it's forks as presenting much information that is rumor and induendo. To be called biased towards CJC is just unreasonable. It presents information which follows NPOV, it uses sympathetic language to describe the positions of JS detractors etc. It may need improvement but if you think there isn't a critical historical treatment of JS's life you need to read more of the links. This article can not cover every detail but needs to focus on an overview of JS life in order to stay encyclopedic i.e. a well written succinct article. Trödel talk 12:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I have absolutely no problem with "Latter day saints" "LDS" "Smith's followers"...ANYTHING that is not a term which misleads any non-mormon (such as with just plain "Saints"). Whether it is used by non-mormon church scholars or not (even if it is used by non-church scholars), it is a clearly deliberate tool to amplify the importance of the LDS church, and something that indefinitely points out who is being referred to is most certainly at need here. It is the EXACT same practice that would also be used in any non-religious article, for purposes of clarity. I did not say that the lack of NPOV sources discredited the current sources, just that it is clearly stated in policy that sources should be balanced according to relevance; and I think that since the article is about Smith, but there are FAR more people in the world that DON'T believe in Smith's word, than there are mormons, both should get an equal balance, especially since NONE of Smith's religious claims can actually be proven. I didn't however notice any non-church references...do you mind showing me which one(s)?
In pretty much every Latter Day Saint denomination I've heard of, members are called "saints". Having a capital "S" probably wouldn't be NPOV, but using the term "saints" is NPOV because that's simply what church members are called. Furthermore, saints have been known to misbehave from the beginning, so though using the term may look weird to a catholic, saying someone is a saint in a Latter Day Saint sense does not imply that they are different from anybody else or that their ideas are more correct. -- Nerd42 17:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's purpose (aside from being editable by anyone) is to present a NPOV to the average reader, and I hate to break it to you folks, but mormons are NOT the average reader. The average reader is NOT going to come to "Saints" and go "oh, it's capitalized, it must mean something different than saints"...another thing that'll probably be hard for y'all to take is that Catholicism has been around a LOT longer and this use of "saint" is WAY more ingrained in humanity's head than the mormon reference to themselves as saints. bcatt 17:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Storm for the compliment - it's a necessity when living in Boulder ;). I've tried to further address issues 1-3 (building on Storm Rider's initiative), 10 and a few others further down. I hope that the corrections for 3 haven't taken it too far the other way, and I'm not sure I like my wording in the priesthood section (issue 10). Honestly I wanted to make the sentence simply say they baptized each other, but I was trying to be true to what I thought the first editor was trying to convey. Good luck on addressing issue 4 - I can't come up with anything at the moment. As for rounding out the references list, could some of you editors who have been around point me to the relevant discussions in the archives concerning this list. Some books that I think could round out the list are "JS: rough stone rolling" by Bushman (also mentioned at the top of the talk page), "Joseph Smith" by Remini, and maybe something from Jan Shipps. -- FyzixFighter 00:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Storm rider's behaviour in regard to this dispute is horrendous, storm rider is intentionally inflammatory (otherwise known as trolling). And when storm rider finally succeeds in pissing off another user, other Morons are brought in to reprimand. You DO NOT own this article. It is NOT up to you what edits stay or don't. In addition to what is happening here, I have been harrased, vandalized, and trolled on my talk page by both storm rider and trodel. You quote wiki policy but REFUSE to follow it yourself. Mormons need to stop having such a strong presence in this article until there is a larger non-mormon presence built up. This inequality is why the article is biased. I am bringing in outside help, since the mormons have built a near impenetrable wall around this article, which EXPRESSLY VIOLATES WIKIPEDIA POLICY. SHAME ON YOU! bcatt 07:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The first thing that needs to happen is that there needs to be a ban (from this article only) of any number of pro-LDSers that is greater than the number neutrals and anti-LDSers, and the LDSers need to be regulated as to their OWNing behaviour of the article and their attacks on anyone who attempts to inject neutrality into it. I am seriously at the end of my rope with this and will do whatever it takes to see that the mormon wikipedia presence stops lording over this article. bcatt 07:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC) Note: what I mean is that if there are, say, 5 neutrals and 2 anti's, there can be no more than 5 mormons (not 7).
This page is on RFC so I peeked in. The issue of calling people saints seems to be resolved. Is there another issue that is still ongoing? Or is it the polygamy issue below? Cuñado - Talk 17:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
It's been more of a general ongoing issue. The article currently does not represent many of the non-mormon views needed to create a well-rounded npov artcile. There has been a problem with non-mormon editors being heavily discouraged from editing, and a very overbearing mrmon presence deciding what can and cannot go into the article. It seems to have improved at least somewhat since I announced I was going to bring in an outside source (the RfC), and perhaps has improved slightly more since I did list it...but it is perhaps too early to tell, I may just be feeling more hopeful about it. I am hoping to attract a larger number of neutral and opposing standpoints so the article can get evened out, as it appears I am the only non-mormon editor sticking around at the moment and I started getting frustrated to the point of starting to get dragged into the negative behaviour used here to deter unwanted editors. I listed some of the immediate concerns regarding mormon biased POV already in the article (look for the numbered sections above), but only in the first two sections, hoping that people would get the idea and take it past those two sections, but so far that hasn't happened. Furthermore, I was repeatedly accused of being too unknowledgable to edit the article, yet told that if I wanted it more npov, I should do it myself. So far, every edit I have made has been reverted at least once, without being supported by the explaination that I was demanded to give for just suggesting that changes be made. I am also trying to stress here that it is important for church sources and links to be balanced with non church sources and links, as there is only one non-church source and no non-church links at this time. I guess that pretty much sums it up from my perspective, everything else is summed up in the extremely long "discussion" above. I would like to note that it would be easier to assume good faith if pro-mormon editors were willing to add in representations of alternate views themselves, instead of trying to keep them out of the article altogether. bcatt 18:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you've read the preceeding dispute because I have in fact mentioned a lot more than just the polygamy/polygyny issue. bcatt 19:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Cunado, I hope you stick around for a while and please read the discussion page; nothing is more enlightening than the evidence itself. Rants can be one of my weaknesses, but I typcially do so if I believe an impact can be made. I have learned that in this instance everything that is said goes right by with no impact whatsoever. Going so far as to want to limit the number of "pro-Mormon" editors; has anyone ever suggested limiting editors on any article? I have chocked this one up to something that must be endured. After a long period we will get through it, but I look forward to individuals who assist such as yourself. Bcatt seems incapable of assuming that any of the editors with a long-term interaction on this article can be trusted; Mormon and non-Mormon alike. Thanks for your willingness to assist. Storm Rider 19:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This is absolutely disgusting. EVERY article should provide equal representation of ALL views. Censorship is NOT acceptable. If you remove the details I added, then you must also remove as much detail from the pro-mormon POV. If what I added is mentioned in the sub article, then why does this article contradict by claiming that the reasons aren't known? Of course, this question is going to be ignored, as all valid questions are on this page. bcatt 20:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This is among the most biased articles I have read on Wikipedia, perhaps to the point of being dubious. The article would be better served posted in a pamphlet. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.134.0.40 ( talk • contribs) .
Some editors have remarked on the seemingly one-sidedness of the resource list. To that end I wanted to create this section to propose additional sources not previously mentioned that could be used to add variety to list. I've only got one at the moment:
Bcatt, I noticed that in one of the posts above you said you have used some impartial sources as part of you're arguments. Maybe I missed them or misunderstood that statement (maybe these were sources in reference to wiki policy and not JS), but I can't seem to find where you state what those sources are. Would you mind sharing/repeating these sources on JS? -- FyzixFighter 07:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I just did a quick check of the resources listed and here's what I came up with:
For what it's worth, there's the general break down. Did I get any wrong? -- FyzixFighter 06:55, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
People really need to look at what I've brought up there, as it applies to all Wikipedia's articles on Joseph Smith Jr. -- Nerd42 15:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
bcatt, I was rereading the article in full per my promise on your talk page. I thought that change was benign. Now that I see that is about the only substantive change you have made - I understand your frustration - that was not my intent. You have accused me of personal attacks and being irrational; as well as assumed that my edits were made in bad fath - please - that is not the way to come to concensus.
Finally, as to the merits, Polygyny is specifically what was practiced. Your argument that it must be polygamy because gamy has an etomology of marriage is unpersuasive. Second, polygamy is also linked to and used int he second sentence. Third, JS was not accused of being one of 2 husbands, but only of specifically polygyny i.e. having multiple wives. Trödel talk 15:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Plural wives in Mormon history is quite different from what society at large may think it means. Plural marriage is should be understood in the context of eternity an perspective. Joseph was "sealed" to many different women. Being sealed to another individual is defined as having the ability of being bonded throughout eternity. It is not known how many of the women to which Joseph was sealed lived with Joseph as a typical man and wife. Many think that the majority of his marriages were sealings only...i.e. they did not live as man and wife. It would be a mistake to think that Joseph was only sealed to all of his plural wives. Bushman's recent book cites that Joseph did appear to have sexual relations with some of them. There is a DNA project ongoing trying to determine if there are any descendants of Joseph Smith from these marriages; no progeny have yet been identified. Storm Rider 16:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
That said (above), this article has reached 50 kb, which is a size generally recommended to be split. Yes, I realize it is already split. And I also noticed, when examining what would be involved in shortening this article, that the "Early life" article is itself 55 kb, and is also split up...I imagine the rest of the articles high on the "tree" (or low, depending on how you look at it) are similarly getting too large. I have some ideas for streamlining the parts that are elaborated later...there's a lot of deep description of things here that is also described in sub articles...BUT, I have another idea that might be interesting to try first. I'm not sure if it's been done before or if it's an acceptable way to arrange things within the bounds of wikipedias policy and manual of style, but here is what I propose:
This story has been given numerous tellings (Newell and Avery, Mormon Enigman, 41-44, and Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon, 114-118 are others). The basics are as follows and quoted from Bushman's Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling, 178:
Motivations for this event as recounted by Symonds Ryder, I believe a participant in the event, felt that Joseph was plotting to take property from its members and he was determined not to allow it to continue and without impunity. Accordingly, a company of citizens was gathered from surrounding communities and proceeded to the Johnson home to rid the country of Smith.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Storm Rider ( talk • contribs) .
Isn't that funny, you don't need any evidence to support outrageous accounts of visions and all manner of things that are controversial in their very existance, yet you don't approve of any evidence that suggests that a person or some people probably did something or things that people are generally known to do on a rather regular basis...this is not suspicious in the least. bcatt
Because someone does not agree with your personal opinion does not mean they are getting on your case. You are personalizing something that is not personal. Now that you have taken the "objective" person's view's ( Talk) and let them know what an idiot they are because they don't happen to agree with every whim that you dream up...take a break, read the entire discussion page again and seek to understand everyone else's comments rather than defend your point of view. You rode in on high horse, reported three people (Storm Rider, Trodel, and Cookiecaper) because they did not roll over and let you run rough shod over an article where you have demonstrated limited knowledge. Your methods will not bear fruit; isn't obvious? Take a breather and take one step at a time. You can achieve your objectives, but when you show a total lack of respect for the vast amount of cooperative work done by others you weaken your position. Everyone will react as much to your methods as to the content of your position. Storm Rider 01:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
accusers are often motivated by a desire to defend a particular Internet project, and references to an Internet user as a troll might not be based on the actual goals of the person so named (but rather may be the intention of the accuser themselves).
"Please do not feed the troll"
It appears that we have gone as far as we can with this. From now on this troll should be ignored and we need to withold all food. I am the worst offender and will desist from further interaction. However, that does not mean that the article is not in need of further improvements. Let's look objectively at balance to make sure that opinions and history is not presented as fact when the life of JS is the subject. Also, let's make sure that all related articles are clearly marked and their subjects are included in this article. This troll just fed their last here. Storm Rider 02:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Cookiecaper - it was solely frustration on Bcatt's part - at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts. Bcatt, regarding your complaint - specifically about your daughter's photo, please remove photos from your page if you don't want any comments about them - and i'm suprised that you got so upset at a compliment for one of them. It is being noted by admins and others. You may want to discuss issues with an admin or even mediation prior to making wikiettiquite alerts - which do no good. Please note that there are a number of different editors that you have interacted with on this page, and not all are LDS, and all have tried to help you. You are obviously frustrated, and as an admin, I'd recommend taking a wikiholiday. The editors who work on LDS-related articles for the most part bend over backward to try to include all viewpoints - they are much easier to work with than those in other religious groups when it comes to NPOV and not being over-protective. Try editing about the Moonies or Jehovah Witnesses or Catholic pages - or even human for that matter. I do have to say, that some of your arguments do not make sense, while others are valid. Work to provide better sources, documentation and such and you will be more successful in influencing others who are or are not better educated on the topic. One last thing - anonymous users are not taken as seriously and are often discounted, etc. As has been disucssed elsewhere, they have no credibility and should not be taken as seriously. It is frequent that anons are sock puppets, or have agendas that do not lend to wikipedia's goals. And it is too easy to register an account so the rest of us can better track your edits. If the anon wants to register an account please do. If not, you will be continued to not be taken seriously. Not meaning anything by this, but that is how the culture of the wiki works. I do suggest a wikiholiday from this page.
Cookiecaper - I actually think you did a good job in trying to bring civility back to this discussion and am dissapointed that Bcatt suggested that you were involved when you were trying to help. Cookiecaper - keep trying to work with these guys.
Stormrider, perhaps this is getting to the point of wikiholiday from this page for a few days?
Bcatt, i'd suggest an apology to cookiecaper in the spirit of good will, as I know you were frustrated when you wrote it, but looking at the history it was unfounded. Such a move will help cool things down.
All: I'd actually like to hear an arguement as to why this page should not be protected. I'm glad you've kept the "war" to the talk page, but there are some deep-rooted issues that need to be resolved before more edits are made to the article. I will try to do a better job at moderating this page and helping to guide discussion. - Visorstuff 22:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Also, why is it that it is okay for others to make sweeping generalizations such as "some of your arguments do not make sense", when I am criticized as being vague when I say that many opposing views not represented in the article (even though everyone already knows what those opposing views are). Honestly, people here need to start practicing what they preach. bcatt 23:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
"Conduct themselves maliciously"? Care to explain? "The community" is ALL of wikipedia's editors, not just the ones that want to own this article. And, if you looked at my history on wikipedia, you would see that my contributions are extensive, high quality, and respectable. bcatt 00:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I did make an earlier suggestion on this size issue in an attempt to move past these other issues and just get on with editing and raising the quality and clarity of this article, but I will paraphrase it here:
This article is very large, the sub articles are also very large and even those may need to be broken down and subbed. As per NPOV, any pro view expressed in this or any sub artcile needs to be accompanied by it's opposing view(s)...but I really think that this article should serve more as laying down a timeline and introducing the fact that there are all these sub articles and what they contain, rather than arguing the merits of each view. The introduction seems very good, though I would like to wikify Christianity and possibly a few other words. I'm not going to go through and make suggestions for the whole article, but I'd like to give an example using the first section:
The first paragraph seems good. The second could maybe be shortened to just comment on JS's retrospectiveness, leaving the quote for the more detailed article and combining the following short paragraph about the family's other activities into one paragraph. The language in the next paragraph is confusing as to whether the theophany and Moroni incident are the same event...and the whole thing could be shortened to just mention his account of being directed to find the plates and other artifacts without going into detail about where they were reported to be or how or when they were reported have been put there, etc. The first sentence of the following paragraph can be added into this paragraph in a summarized way. Not sure if the next paragraph could be further summarized as it flows from his activities in the meantime to his marriage to Emma Hale, though some of the details could probably be saved for sub articles. In the final paragraph, the part about the additional visits seems like it belongs in the previous paragraph, but otherwise seems fairly succinct...maybe a few finer details could be saved for sub articles.
If this is done for each section, the article should be able to be shortened enough to keep it within the suggested size guidelines without losing the basic idea of the events covered in each sub article. The legacy and teachings sections seem very nicely summarized. As a side note...can somebody please comment about the double use of the same picture? And I think someone mentioned putting the timeline box at the bottom of the article (or was that a different article), which seems to have it's pro's and con's, but even if it was at the bottom, it seems very strange to have the same image twice...I haven't seen this occur in any other article. Personally, I like the oval one further down in Kirtland and wonder why this one isn't used in one of these boxes? (Unsigned by User:Bcatt
I don't see any discussion relating to these suggestions (particularly discussion involving non-LDS members). "Community consensus" on wikipedia does not translate to "approval by a faction controlling an article". I don't see how these suggestions can possibly be controversial and so it seems this is just another case of rejecting my suggestions personally, or rejecting any suggestions from anyone outside the faction. As an admin, you should be well aware that this is not an acceptable way to conduct things. bcatt 00:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)