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I decided to create the 'Unit History (UNC)' in case information ever becomes available on the history of the KPA contingent, at which time it will be easy to create a 'Unit History (KPA)' section. wbfergus 18:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Are the ROKA soldiers at the JSA really part of the KATUSA program or do they simply work alongside American soldiers? Several references in this article indicate they are all KATUSA. There are plenty of ROKA soldiers at the JSA wearing their own uniforms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.116.202.5 ( talk) 12:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Is that section actually real? Or is it just vandalism. Just shows how silly war is.
NO, NO and again NO!! The flag story is apocryphal (really I mean to say utter BS) perpetuated by people too lazy to actually research what went on. This fabrication is grounded in truth and the real (minor) incident can be found in Vice Admiral Turner Joy's Negotiating While Fighting. NO MENTION OF ANY DISCUSSIONS ABOUT FLAG SIZES FOR THE DELEGATIONS CAN BE FOUND IN ANY (REPEAT ANY) OF THE MAC, SECRETARY, SECURITY OFFICER OR JOINT DUTY OFFICER MEETINGS. Somebody with more privilege than I have needs to amend this section of the page. As for the "the North Koreans respond fairly soon" above, sure, each side tried to outdo the other; mind you, most of the responses took years, maybe decades, to accomplish. And one final opinion; war is not silly, it's an extension of politics by other means and as such is deadly serious, as all struggle for power is. Aidan Bothwell
The Flag War Story....continued....(*Sigh*)
Wow, you've actually BEEN to the JSA? I'm very impressed. I'll keep that in mind, but the flag story is still wrong. You wouldn't be the first authoritative source to mistake familiarity with expertise. Me, I'm guilty as charged, for I think that I am the most handsome man alive...therefore it must be true.
(By the way, since you're so familiar with the locale you'd be knowing where Kim Duk Sung's tombstone is, eh? And, more importantly, what year it was planted there? Oh, you don't know...how surprisingly typical of the security battalion.)
Oh yeah, that reminds me, I spent four years there and lived the last year in the JSA (couldn't stand the batt boys and their silly pretentious airs, so moved off Liberty Bell).
"The world's history would be in pretty sad shape if the only "real" history consisted of "official" written records. I do not consider myself too lazy to actually research what went on"
No? Then why do the refences you cited include:
what I was told by several soldiers, tour guides, and by some souvenir books I purchased (now if I could just find them...).?
Takes a lot of effort to listen to a story, determine that it is true and then buy the souvenir book, written by a real historian. And Kirkbride's (or is it Macbride? I'm getting old) books aren't that great. I'll accept his personal observations, but not his comments on events outside his purview. Me, I just read through reams of "official" BS masquerading as history.
Hmmm, that reminds me, Turner's book is a personal diary, not an "offical" record. Oh yeah, wait, I forgot that an organization associated with the evil US government published it, so it's probably an "official" source. Toss it on the bonfire...
I'd throw Santayana into the ring, but I am not sure this is the place. This is my last post on this issue. You stick with what you want to believe and I'll still wade through the "official" and unofficial papers for any topic of interest to me, instead of doing the really hard work of asking the nearest wall support organism.
Bottom Line: The "Flag War" story is apocryphal, but if you tell it often enough it becomes true.
Aidan Bothwell
(I see I might have written with some asperity. In the time I spent at the JSA I had to listen to so much BS that I easily lose patience when this issue comes up. I was very frustrated that people would simply repeat what they had been told without ever bothering to look in recorded sources....and Kim Duk Sung's tombstone is located four feet of the road on the north side of the MSR, slightly closer to Bonifas than the JSA. The inscription is in Chinese and the date, referenced to the then current monarch, is 1609 AD.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.59.164.106 ( talk) 18:15, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
The rest of the I posted here has been removed as it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand and unhelpful to the atmosphere of this project. Aidan Bothwell
And NO! The Flag Story is still WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!
Aidan Bothwell —Preceding
unsigned comment added by [Special:Contributions/121.162.203.148|121.162.203.148]] (
talk) 16:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The lead is way too long. I was going to snip it off, but I realised that you could not easily do so, as it has mixed material. Can some of the regulars do it? Loath to add another project to my long list. Ingolfson 10:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It's spelled Panmunjeom. This correction should be made throughout the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dblecros ( talk • contribs) 09:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The start of the second paragraph is un-necessarily pedantic and fussy in tone and tries to make a big point out of something trivial. The JSA is simply in a farming-area close to the former village of Panmunj(e)om. It's no big deal that the JSA isn't in the village nor that the village is now deserted (hardly surprising given the area's military and diplomatic history). Even if there were widespread controversy about where the JSA was, it wouldn't belong so early in the article. The writer's confusion may be based on the fallacy that, if you're not in a town or village, you're not anywhere. The farms around Panmunjom are in Panmunjom. A place can still be called by a name even if all its buildings have been abandoned or demolished. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 ( talk) 08:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I reverted back the newer picture to the original because the building was a different one. The changed caption for the other, exiting picture became incorrect also. The pictures in this section are provided to show how both North and South Korea have been 'remodeling' their buildings within the JSA over the years, per the accompanying article text. The picture may be able to be used elsewhere in the article, or maybe in the gallery, but for that section which is based upon the 4 pictures, it was incorrect. wbfergus Talk 11:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC) {continues}
Seems like maybe some contributor is living in the past. Can't we get an up to date picture to lead off?
Just wondering, but hell, I never was the brightest bulb on the circuit....or a "moose run" driver either....
Cheers,
76.121.33.65 ( talk) 10:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Thomas Aidan Bothwell
As a matter of curiosity, what became of Vasily Matusak, the Russian who defected across the JSA in 1984? Muzilon ( talk) 09:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
I saw this place from TV. I wonder if the guards of the two sides stare at each other's face everyday without talking? I also saw a meeting room with two doors leading to each side. Do those doors have special design? 111.251.197.25 ( talk) 22:52, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I see lot's of pictures of JSA, but not many where both side "guarding" on same time. Maybe iam not well informed but it seem to me that this circus show is just for newspapers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.137.163.57 ( talk) 18:40, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
In each space, two North Korean soldiers stand facing each other rather than the South, so that neither one can defect to the South, and another guard stands behind them facing the North to prevent anyone else from defecting.
http://voyajit.su/trip-reports/dmz-north-korea/
http://www.businessinsider.com/north-and-south-korea-dmz-border-is-a-warzone-2013-2?op=1
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/features/world/asia/north-korea/dmz-text — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mdlark (
talk •
contribs) 08:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
I noticed several references to concepts such as "ROK", "ROKA", "CPV", "KATUSA", "Lt. Bulldog", etc., which didn't seem to me to be adequately introduced, explained, or put in context. In general, my impression is that the article should probably be gone over by one or more editors who are not intimately familiar with the subject. Some abbreviations may not be really necessary throughout the article — e.g., I suspect most uses of "ROK" could safely be rewritten as "South Korea". I may try to take some time to work on the article myself. Richwales ( talk) 19:03, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I think "JSA" is confused with the forces guarding it from the south side at some places in this article:
The beginning of paragraph 4 states: "Originally established as a U.S. Army organization, the JSA quickly incorporated ROK soldiers ...". I'm sure the Joint Security Area (JSA), as the abbreviation was introduced in this article, was never a US Army organisation. It is the patch of land under the special rule of the armistice agreement, partially controlled by the UN-side (including US). I guess, soldiers serving in the UNC forces guarding the JSA (as heard today, the current name seems to be "United Nations Command Security Battalion - Joint Security Area") also call their unit shortly "JSA", and I guess further that "JSA" in the 4th paragraph was used in this sense.
A similar problem occurs for the section "Composition and duties": It is NOT about composition and duties of the Joint Security Area, but (mainly) of the composition, history and duties of the "United Nations Command Security Battalion - Joint Security Area". In addition, it has some sentences on the appearance of the North Korean Guards as well.
Suggestions:
Puh, I hope that's understandable. ;-) However, I wanted to put it up for discussion first before I change it myself, since I'm no expert in this field.
One last remark in the same line: The picture of the One-hole golf course in the gallery does not belong to JSA, but to Camp Bonifas (which is -- although stated otherwise in the Camp Bonifas article -- definitely not inside the JSA).
220.85.21.195 ( talk) 15:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC) (sorry, no en.wikipedia account)
The Armistice which ended the fighting was signed by the UNC commander, KPA commander, and Chinese PA cdr. SK did not sign. The agreement itself refers to future discussions to take place between the governments (not military forces). These discussion do not take place. The article on the UNC (korea) says ROK forces put themselves under the command of UNC (although this does not have a reference or support). In any event, it does not matter that the governments of SK & NK remain "technically" at war because the military forces of the goverments are not (albeit) they do have clashes. In any event, the portion I deleted re the status of the war does not have direct impact on this article (other than muddying the waters should it remain.) Best to leave it out as a POV problem.-- S. Rich ( talk) 04:58, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
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What shit is this? Wiki should be encyclopedia and not propaganda pamflet.
That the DPRK has declared the ceasefire agreement over? Phd8511 ( talk) 13:43, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Please speak proper English. I was suggesting that there could be updates given the latest development. Arrogant. Phd8511 ( talk) 00:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
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I think the minimum height has been raised to 5'9 as South Koreans are now taller than they used to be. I doubt it is still as low as the 5'6 in the article. -- Elmeter ( talk) 12:10, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Joint Security Area's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "may26summit":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:11, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
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I decided to create the 'Unit History (UNC)' in case information ever becomes available on the history of the KPA contingent, at which time it will be easy to create a 'Unit History (KPA)' section. wbfergus 18:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Are the ROKA soldiers at the JSA really part of the KATUSA program or do they simply work alongside American soldiers? Several references in this article indicate they are all KATUSA. There are plenty of ROKA soldiers at the JSA wearing their own uniforms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.116.202.5 ( talk) 12:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Is that section actually real? Or is it just vandalism. Just shows how silly war is.
NO, NO and again NO!! The flag story is apocryphal (really I mean to say utter BS) perpetuated by people too lazy to actually research what went on. This fabrication is grounded in truth and the real (minor) incident can be found in Vice Admiral Turner Joy's Negotiating While Fighting. NO MENTION OF ANY DISCUSSIONS ABOUT FLAG SIZES FOR THE DELEGATIONS CAN BE FOUND IN ANY (REPEAT ANY) OF THE MAC, SECRETARY, SECURITY OFFICER OR JOINT DUTY OFFICER MEETINGS. Somebody with more privilege than I have needs to amend this section of the page. As for the "the North Koreans respond fairly soon" above, sure, each side tried to outdo the other; mind you, most of the responses took years, maybe decades, to accomplish. And one final opinion; war is not silly, it's an extension of politics by other means and as such is deadly serious, as all struggle for power is. Aidan Bothwell
The Flag War Story....continued....(*Sigh*)
Wow, you've actually BEEN to the JSA? I'm very impressed. I'll keep that in mind, but the flag story is still wrong. You wouldn't be the first authoritative source to mistake familiarity with expertise. Me, I'm guilty as charged, for I think that I am the most handsome man alive...therefore it must be true.
(By the way, since you're so familiar with the locale you'd be knowing where Kim Duk Sung's tombstone is, eh? And, more importantly, what year it was planted there? Oh, you don't know...how surprisingly typical of the security battalion.)
Oh yeah, that reminds me, I spent four years there and lived the last year in the JSA (couldn't stand the batt boys and their silly pretentious airs, so moved off Liberty Bell).
"The world's history would be in pretty sad shape if the only "real" history consisted of "official" written records. I do not consider myself too lazy to actually research what went on"
No? Then why do the refences you cited include:
what I was told by several soldiers, tour guides, and by some souvenir books I purchased (now if I could just find them...).?
Takes a lot of effort to listen to a story, determine that it is true and then buy the souvenir book, written by a real historian. And Kirkbride's (or is it Macbride? I'm getting old) books aren't that great. I'll accept his personal observations, but not his comments on events outside his purview. Me, I just read through reams of "official" BS masquerading as history.
Hmmm, that reminds me, Turner's book is a personal diary, not an "offical" record. Oh yeah, wait, I forgot that an organization associated with the evil US government published it, so it's probably an "official" source. Toss it on the bonfire...
I'd throw Santayana into the ring, but I am not sure this is the place. This is my last post on this issue. You stick with what you want to believe and I'll still wade through the "official" and unofficial papers for any topic of interest to me, instead of doing the really hard work of asking the nearest wall support organism.
Bottom Line: The "Flag War" story is apocryphal, but if you tell it often enough it becomes true.
Aidan Bothwell
(I see I might have written with some asperity. In the time I spent at the JSA I had to listen to so much BS that I easily lose patience when this issue comes up. I was very frustrated that people would simply repeat what they had been told without ever bothering to look in recorded sources....and Kim Duk Sung's tombstone is located four feet of the road on the north side of the MSR, slightly closer to Bonifas than the JSA. The inscription is in Chinese and the date, referenced to the then current monarch, is 1609 AD.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.59.164.106 ( talk) 18:15, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
The rest of the I posted here has been removed as it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand and unhelpful to the atmosphere of this project. Aidan Bothwell
And NO! The Flag Story is still WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!
Aidan Bothwell —Preceding
unsigned comment added by [Special:Contributions/121.162.203.148|121.162.203.148]] (
talk) 16:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The lead is way too long. I was going to snip it off, but I realised that you could not easily do so, as it has mixed material. Can some of the regulars do it? Loath to add another project to my long list. Ingolfson 10:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It's spelled Panmunjeom. This correction should be made throughout the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dblecros ( talk • contribs) 09:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The start of the second paragraph is un-necessarily pedantic and fussy in tone and tries to make a big point out of something trivial. The JSA is simply in a farming-area close to the former village of Panmunj(e)om. It's no big deal that the JSA isn't in the village nor that the village is now deserted (hardly surprising given the area's military and diplomatic history). Even if there were widespread controversy about where the JSA was, it wouldn't belong so early in the article. The writer's confusion may be based on the fallacy that, if you're not in a town or village, you're not anywhere. The farms around Panmunjom are in Panmunjom. A place can still be called by a name even if all its buildings have been abandoned or demolished. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 ( talk) 08:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I reverted back the newer picture to the original because the building was a different one. The changed caption for the other, exiting picture became incorrect also. The pictures in this section are provided to show how both North and South Korea have been 'remodeling' their buildings within the JSA over the years, per the accompanying article text. The picture may be able to be used elsewhere in the article, or maybe in the gallery, but for that section which is based upon the 4 pictures, it was incorrect. wbfergus Talk 11:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC) {continues}
Seems like maybe some contributor is living in the past. Can't we get an up to date picture to lead off?
Just wondering, but hell, I never was the brightest bulb on the circuit....or a "moose run" driver either....
Cheers,
76.121.33.65 ( talk) 10:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Thomas Aidan Bothwell
As a matter of curiosity, what became of Vasily Matusak, the Russian who defected across the JSA in 1984? Muzilon ( talk) 09:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
I saw this place from TV. I wonder if the guards of the two sides stare at each other's face everyday without talking? I also saw a meeting room with two doors leading to each side. Do those doors have special design? 111.251.197.25 ( talk) 22:52, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I see lot's of pictures of JSA, but not many where both side "guarding" on same time. Maybe iam not well informed but it seem to me that this circus show is just for newspapers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.137.163.57 ( talk) 18:40, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
In each space, two North Korean soldiers stand facing each other rather than the South, so that neither one can defect to the South, and another guard stands behind them facing the North to prevent anyone else from defecting.
http://voyajit.su/trip-reports/dmz-north-korea/
http://www.businessinsider.com/north-and-south-korea-dmz-border-is-a-warzone-2013-2?op=1
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/features/world/asia/north-korea/dmz-text — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mdlark (
talk •
contribs) 08:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
I noticed several references to concepts such as "ROK", "ROKA", "CPV", "KATUSA", "Lt. Bulldog", etc., which didn't seem to me to be adequately introduced, explained, or put in context. In general, my impression is that the article should probably be gone over by one or more editors who are not intimately familiar with the subject. Some abbreviations may not be really necessary throughout the article — e.g., I suspect most uses of "ROK" could safely be rewritten as "South Korea". I may try to take some time to work on the article myself. Richwales ( talk) 19:03, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I think "JSA" is confused with the forces guarding it from the south side at some places in this article:
The beginning of paragraph 4 states: "Originally established as a U.S. Army organization, the JSA quickly incorporated ROK soldiers ...". I'm sure the Joint Security Area (JSA), as the abbreviation was introduced in this article, was never a US Army organisation. It is the patch of land under the special rule of the armistice agreement, partially controlled by the UN-side (including US). I guess, soldiers serving in the UNC forces guarding the JSA (as heard today, the current name seems to be "United Nations Command Security Battalion - Joint Security Area") also call their unit shortly "JSA", and I guess further that "JSA" in the 4th paragraph was used in this sense.
A similar problem occurs for the section "Composition and duties": It is NOT about composition and duties of the Joint Security Area, but (mainly) of the composition, history and duties of the "United Nations Command Security Battalion - Joint Security Area". In addition, it has some sentences on the appearance of the North Korean Guards as well.
Suggestions:
Puh, I hope that's understandable. ;-) However, I wanted to put it up for discussion first before I change it myself, since I'm no expert in this field.
One last remark in the same line: The picture of the One-hole golf course in the gallery does not belong to JSA, but to Camp Bonifas (which is -- although stated otherwise in the Camp Bonifas article -- definitely not inside the JSA).
220.85.21.195 ( talk) 15:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC) (sorry, no en.wikipedia account)
The Armistice which ended the fighting was signed by the UNC commander, KPA commander, and Chinese PA cdr. SK did not sign. The agreement itself refers to future discussions to take place between the governments (not military forces). These discussion do not take place. The article on the UNC (korea) says ROK forces put themselves under the command of UNC (although this does not have a reference or support). In any event, it does not matter that the governments of SK & NK remain "technically" at war because the military forces of the goverments are not (albeit) they do have clashes. In any event, the portion I deleted re the status of the war does not have direct impact on this article (other than muddying the waters should it remain.) Best to leave it out as a POV problem.-- S. Rich ( talk) 04:58, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
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Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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What shit is this? Wiki should be encyclopedia and not propaganda pamflet.
That the DPRK has declared the ceasefire agreement over? Phd8511 ( talk) 13:43, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Please speak proper English. I was suggesting that there could be updates given the latest development. Arrogant. Phd8511 ( talk) 00:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
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I think the minimum height has been raised to 5'9 as South Koreans are now taller than they used to be. I doubt it is still as low as the 5'6 in the article. -- Elmeter ( talk) 12:10, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Joint Security Area's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
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